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New Book: Folk Song in England

Jim Carroll 10 Feb 19 - 03:49 AM
GUEST,Cj 09 Feb 19 - 04:09 PM
Jim Carroll 08 Feb 19 - 06:30 AM
GUEST,JHW 08 Feb 19 - 06:08 AM
Jim Carroll 07 Feb 19 - 09:21 AM
The Sandman 07 Feb 19 - 09:05 AM
Jim Carroll 07 Feb 19 - 07:02 AM
The Sandman 07 Feb 19 - 05:32 AM
GUEST,Mike Yates 07 Feb 19 - 05:12 AM
Jim Carroll 07 Feb 19 - 04:28 AM
Jim Carroll 07 Feb 19 - 03:32 AM
Steve Gardham 05 Feb 19 - 04:44 PM
GUEST,JHW 05 Feb 19 - 03:06 PM
GUEST,Hootenannny 27 Sep 18 - 11:57 AM
GUEST,Jon Dudley 27 Sep 18 - 09:26 AM
GUEST 27 Sep 18 - 05:38 AM
Steve Gardham 11 Sep 18 - 04:01 PM
Vic Smith 10 Sep 18 - 10:21 AM
Steve Gardham 05 Sep 18 - 05:13 PM
GUEST,jag 05 Sep 18 - 09:30 AM
GUEST,jag 05 Sep 18 - 09:28 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 05 Sep 18 - 08:22 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 05 Sep 18 - 08:15 AM
The Sandman 05 Sep 18 - 07:55 AM
Jack Campin 05 Sep 18 - 06:40 AM
Brian Peters 05 Sep 18 - 06:17 AM
Steve Gardham 04 Sep 18 - 05:39 PM
GUEST,jag 04 Sep 18 - 04:56 PM
Steve Gardham 04 Sep 18 - 01:05 PM
GUEST,jag 04 Sep 18 - 11:36 AM
Jack Campin 04 Sep 18 - 11:33 AM
Steve Gardham 04 Sep 18 - 10:58 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 04 Sep 18 - 05:59 AM
The Sandman 04 Sep 18 - 02:05 AM
Lighter 03 Sep 18 - 08:49 PM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 03 Sep 18 - 08:23 PM
Brian Peters 03 Sep 18 - 02:56 PM
Steve Gardham 03 Sep 18 - 02:29 PM
Brian Peters 03 Sep 18 - 02:08 PM
Steve Gardham 03 Sep 18 - 01:16 PM
GUEST 03 Sep 18 - 06:22 AM
Will Fly 02 Sep 18 - 10:36 AM
Steve Gardham 02 Sep 18 - 09:39 AM
Steve Gardham 30 Aug 18 - 06:33 PM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 30 Aug 18 - 06:21 PM
Steve Gardham 30 Aug 18 - 06:05 PM
Steve Gardham 30 Aug 18 - 05:52 PM
GUEST,jag 30 Aug 18 - 03:17 PM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 30 Aug 18 - 01:58 PM
Jack Campin 30 Aug 18 - 10:50 AM
GUEST,jag 30 Aug 18 - 10:18 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 30 Aug 18 - 09:07 AM
GUEST,Jack Campin 27 Aug 18 - 10:18 AM
GUEST,Jack Campin 27 Aug 18 - 10:04 AM
Brian Peters 27 Aug 18 - 09:45 AM
Vic Smith 27 Aug 18 - 05:56 AM
Brian Peters 27 Aug 18 - 05:48 AM
Brian Peters 27 Aug 18 - 05:28 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 26 Aug 18 - 05:23 PM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 26 Aug 18 - 05:10 PM
Phil Edwards 26 Aug 18 - 04:33 PM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 26 Aug 18 - 11:50 AM
Brian Peters 26 Aug 18 - 11:38 AM
Steve Gardham 26 Aug 18 - 10:37 AM
Steve Gardham 26 Aug 18 - 10:35 AM
Steve Gardham 26 Aug 18 - 10:25 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 26 Aug 18 - 07:45 AM
Vic Smith 26 Aug 18 - 07:30 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 26 Aug 18 - 05:16 AM
Jim Carroll 26 Aug 18 - 05:11 AM
Jim Carroll 26 Aug 18 - 04:49 AM
Brian Peters 25 Aug 18 - 06:22 PM
GUEST,John Bowden (not a typo!) 25 Aug 18 - 05:49 PM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 25 Aug 18 - 03:52 PM
Vic Smith 25 Aug 18 - 02:25 PM
Richard Mellish 25 Aug 18 - 01:25 PM
Jim Carroll 25 Aug 18 - 11:31 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 25 Aug 18 - 11:21 AM
Tootler 25 Aug 18 - 10:05 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 25 Aug 18 - 09:31 AM
GUEST 25 Aug 18 - 09:31 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 25 Aug 18 - 08:42 AM
The Sandman 25 Aug 18 - 04:05 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 24 Aug 18 - 07:57 PM
GUEST,paperback 24 Aug 18 - 07:32 PM
GUEST,paperback 24 Aug 18 - 07:28 PM
Vic Smith 24 Aug 18 - 06:49 PM
GUEST,Walter and his rhythm sticks 24 Aug 18 - 11:29 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 24 Aug 18 - 09:44 AM
Richard Mellish 24 Aug 18 - 09:22 AM
Lighter 24 Aug 18 - 09:20 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 24 Aug 18 - 08:59 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 24 Aug 18 - 08:22 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 24 Aug 18 - 08:12 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 24 Aug 18 - 08:02 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 24 Aug 18 - 07:46 AM
Vic Smith 24 Aug 18 - 07:40 AM
Vic Smith 24 Aug 18 - 07:11 AM
Howard Jones 24 Aug 18 - 02:42 AM
The Sandman 24 Aug 18 - 02:03 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 23 Aug 18 - 08:48 PM
Howard Jones 23 Aug 18 - 03:40 PM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 23 Aug 18 - 12:54 PM
GUEST,jag 23 Aug 18 - 09:59 AM
GUEST,jag 23 Aug 18 - 09:58 AM
Vic Smith 23 Aug 18 - 09:36 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 23 Aug 18 - 09:30 AM
GUEST,jag 23 Aug 18 - 09:16 AM
GUEST,Harry 23 Aug 18 - 08:44 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 23 Aug 18 - 08:09 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 23 Aug 18 - 07:34 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 23 Aug 18 - 07:01 AM
Steve Gardham 23 Aug 18 - 04:09 AM
GUEST,jag 23 Aug 18 - 03:15 AM
GUEST,jag 23 Aug 18 - 03:10 AM
GUEST,CJ 23 Aug 18 - 03:09 AM
GUEST,guest 23 Aug 18 - 02:32 AM
Steve Gardham 22 Aug 18 - 06:04 PM
Dave the Gnome 22 Aug 18 - 03:32 PM
Vic Smith 22 Aug 18 - 03:22 PM
Richard Mellish 22 Aug 18 - 12:48 PM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 22 Aug 18 - 11:58 AM
Vic Smith 22 Aug 18 - 11:22 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 22 Aug 18 - 09:18 AM
Jim Carroll 22 Aug 18 - 05:25 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 22 Aug 18 - 04:04 AM
Jim Carroll 22 Aug 18 - 03:48 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 22 Aug 18 - 03:46 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 22 Aug 18 - 03:46 AM
Jim Carroll 22 Aug 18 - 02:55 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 21 Aug 18 - 04:15 PM
GUEST 21 Aug 18 - 03:16 PM
Jim Carroll 21 Aug 18 - 03:04 PM
Lighter 21 Aug 18 - 02:49 PM
GUEST,jag 21 Aug 18 - 02:00 PM
Jim Carroll 21 Aug 18 - 01:48 PM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 21 Aug 18 - 01:17 PM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 21 Aug 18 - 01:08 PM
GUEST,jag 21 Aug 18 - 01:00 PM
Vic Smith 21 Aug 18 - 12:36 PM
Jim Carroll 21 Aug 18 - 12:31 PM
Vic Smith 21 Aug 18 - 12:31 PM
GUEST,Nemesis 21 Aug 18 - 12:27 PM
Jim Carroll 21 Aug 18 - 12:12 PM
Jim Carroll 21 Aug 18 - 12:10 PM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 21 Aug 18 - 11:42 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 21 Aug 18 - 11:35 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 21 Aug 18 - 11:28 AM
GUEST,Guest 21 Aug 18 - 11:10 AM
Lighter 21 Aug 18 - 10:48 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 21 Aug 18 - 09:54 AM
GUEST,Nemisis 21 Aug 18 - 09:45 AM
Jim Carroll 21 Aug 18 - 08:46 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 21 Aug 18 - 08:46 AM
GUEST 21 Aug 18 - 08:33 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 21 Aug 18 - 08:26 AM
GUEST,jag 21 Aug 18 - 08:03 AM
Jim Carroll 21 Aug 18 - 07:47 AM
Jim Carroll 21 Aug 18 - 06:52 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 21 Aug 18 - 06:39 AM
Jim Carroll 21 Aug 18 - 03:15 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 20 Aug 18 - 05:51 PM
Jim Carroll 20 Aug 18 - 01:12 PM
GUEST,jag 20 Aug 18 - 01:12 PM
Jim Carroll 20 Aug 18 - 12:55 PM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 20 Aug 18 - 12:43 PM
Jim Carroll 20 Aug 18 - 11:57 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 20 Aug 18 - 11:44 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 20 Aug 18 - 11:36 AM
Jim Carroll 20 Aug 18 - 10:04 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 20 Aug 18 - 08:57 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 20 Aug 18 - 06:54 AM
Jim Carroll 20 Aug 18 - 04:00 AM
GUEST,Harry 20 Aug 18 - 02:54 AM
Richard Mellish 19 Aug 18 - 04:41 PM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 19 Aug 18 - 12:51 PM
Vic Smith 19 Aug 18 - 11:55 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 19 Aug 18 - 11:16 AM
Jim Carroll 19 Aug 18 - 10:58 AM
Richard Mellish 19 Aug 18 - 10:31 AM
Vic Smith 19 Aug 18 - 09:06 AM
Jim Carroll 19 Aug 18 - 08:31 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 19 Aug 18 - 08:04 AM
Jim Carroll 19 Aug 18 - 07:45 AM
Richard Mellish 19 Aug 18 - 07:17 AM
Jim Carroll 19 Aug 18 - 02:31 AM
Jim Carroll 19 Aug 18 - 02:30 AM
Steve Gardham 18 Aug 18 - 03:19 PM
Jim Carroll 18 Aug 18 - 03:01 PM
Steve Gardham 18 Aug 18 - 02:50 PM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 18 Aug 18 - 02:29 PM
Steve Gardham 18 Aug 18 - 02:24 PM
Jim Carroll 18 Aug 18 - 01:51 PM
Steve Gardham 18 Aug 18 - 01:51 PM
Steve Gardham 18 Aug 18 - 01:41 PM
Steve Gardham 18 Aug 18 - 01:40 PM
Jim Carroll 18 Aug 18 - 01:20 PM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 18 Aug 18 - 12:58 PM
Jim Carroll 18 Aug 18 - 11:46 AM
Jim Carroll 18 Aug 18 - 11:41 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 18 Aug 18 - 11:22 AM
Steve Gardham 18 Aug 18 - 11:15 AM
Steve Gardham 18 Aug 18 - 11:02 AM
Jim Carroll 18 Aug 18 - 10:19 AM
Richard Mellish 18 Aug 18 - 09:39 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 18 Aug 18 - 09:29 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 18 Aug 18 - 09:21 AM
Vic Smith 18 Aug 18 - 07:53 AM
Jim Carroll 18 Aug 18 - 05:16 AM
Brian Peters 18 Aug 18 - 05:01 AM
Jim Carroll 18 Aug 18 - 03:56 AM
Jim Carroll 17 Aug 18 - 09:31 PM
Richard Mellish 17 Aug 18 - 05:06 PM
Brian Peters 17 Aug 18 - 04:21 PM
Steve Gardham 17 Aug 18 - 04:08 PM
Vic Smith 17 Aug 18 - 04:07 PM
Brian Peters 17 Aug 18 - 04:04 PM
Steve Gardham 17 Aug 18 - 03:51 PM
Brian Peters 17 Aug 18 - 03:40 PM
Jim Carroll 17 Aug 18 - 03:16 PM
Steve Gardham 17 Aug 18 - 02:56 PM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 17 Aug 18 - 02:46 PM
Steve Gardham 17 Aug 18 - 01:44 PM
Steve Gardham 17 Aug 18 - 01:38 PM
The Sandman 17 Aug 18 - 01:20 PM
Jim Carroll 17 Aug 18 - 12:51 PM
Jim Carroll 17 Aug 18 - 12:47 PM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 17 Aug 18 - 11:24 AM
GUEST,Red Rebel 17 Aug 18 - 11:19 AM
Jim Carroll 17 Aug 18 - 11:13 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 17 Aug 18 - 10:55 AM
Jim Carroll 17 Aug 18 - 10:04 AM
Jim Carroll 17 Aug 18 - 09:14 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 17 Aug 18 - 08:32 AM
GUEST,jag 17 Aug 18 - 08:19 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 17 Aug 18 - 07:32 AM
GUEST,jag 17 Aug 18 - 04:23 AM
Jim Carroll 17 Aug 18 - 03:12 AM
GUEST,Guest 17 Aug 18 - 02:35 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 16 Aug 18 - 04:42 PM
Steve Gardham 16 Aug 18 - 04:27 PM
Steve Gardham 16 Aug 18 - 04:22 PM
GUEST,Derek Schofield 16 Aug 18 - 04:21 PM
Steve Gardham 16 Aug 18 - 04:14 PM
Steve Gardham 16 Aug 18 - 03:46 PM
Vic Smith 16 Aug 18 - 03:29 PM
Steve Gardham 16 Aug 18 - 03:20 PM
Jim Carroll 16 Aug 18 - 03:17 PM
Steve Gardham 16 Aug 18 - 02:45 PM
Steve Gardham 16 Aug 18 - 02:38 PM
Jim Carroll 16 Aug 18 - 01:58 PM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 16 Aug 18 - 01:21 PM
Vic Smith 16 Aug 18 - 01:13 PM
Jim Carroll 16 Aug 18 - 01:04 PM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 16 Aug 18 - 12:56 PM
GUEST,Hootenanny 16 Aug 18 - 12:24 PM
Jim Carroll 16 Aug 18 - 11:37 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Aug 18 - 11:37 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Aug 18 - 11:10 AM
Vic Smith 16 Aug 18 - 11:03 AM
Steve Gardham 16 Aug 18 - 11:00 AM
Steve Gardham 16 Aug 18 - 10:58 AM
Vic Smith 16 Aug 18 - 10:55 AM
Steve Gardham 16 Aug 18 - 10:42 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Aug 18 - 10:38 AM
Steve Gardham 16 Aug 18 - 10:33 AM
Vic Smith 16 Aug 18 - 10:33 AM
Brian Peters 16 Aug 18 - 10:29 AM
GUEST,jag 16 Aug 18 - 10:25 AM
Steve Gardham 16 Aug 18 - 10:13 AM
GUEST,jag 16 Aug 18 - 10:13 AM
GUEST,jag 16 Aug 18 - 09:40 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Aug 18 - 09:32 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Aug 18 - 09:22 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 16 Aug 18 - 09:07 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 16 Aug 18 - 08:57 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 16 Aug 18 - 08:44 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 16 Aug 18 - 08:39 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Aug 18 - 08:38 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Aug 18 - 08:32 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 16 Aug 18 - 08:01 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 16 Aug 18 - 07:50 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Aug 18 - 07:44 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Aug 18 - 07:44 AM
GUEST,jag 16 Aug 18 - 07:39 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 16 Aug 18 - 07:32 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 16 Aug 18 - 07:06 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Aug 18 - 06:55 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 16 Aug 18 - 06:35 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 16 Aug 18 - 06:28 AM
Steve Gardham 16 Aug 18 - 06:11 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Aug 18 - 04:10 AM
GUEST,jag 16 Aug 18 - 03:56 AM
GUEST,jag 16 Aug 18 - 03:35 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Aug 18 - 03:31 AM
Joe Offer 16 Aug 18 - 03:27 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Aug 18 - 03:22 AM
Steve Gardham 15 Aug 18 - 06:08 PM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 15 Aug 18 - 06:02 PM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 15 Aug 18 - 05:08 PM
Steve Gardham 15 Aug 18 - 04:01 PM
Steve Gardham 15 Aug 18 - 03:53 PM
GUEST,jag 15 Aug 18 - 03:53 PM
Vic Smith 15 Aug 18 - 03:03 PM
Jim Carroll 15 Aug 18 - 02:51 PM
Jim Carroll 15 Aug 18 - 02:33 PM
Brian Peters 15 Aug 18 - 01:41 PM
GUEST,jag 15 Aug 18 - 01:31 PM
Jim Carroll 15 Aug 18 - 12:41 PM
GUEST,jag 15 Aug 18 - 12:18 PM
Jim Carroll 15 Aug 18 - 11:45 AM
GUEST,jag 15 Aug 18 - 11:07 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Aug 18 - 10:51 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 15 Aug 18 - 10:41 AM
Vic Smith 15 Aug 18 - 10:36 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Aug 18 - 10:30 AM
GUEST,jag 15 Aug 18 - 10:27 AM
GUEST,jag 15 Aug 18 - 09:57 AM
GUEST,Observer 15 Aug 18 - 09:55 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Aug 18 - 09:37 AM
GUEST,jag 15 Aug 18 - 09:04 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Aug 18 - 08:05 AM
Vic Smith 15 Aug 18 - 07:41 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 15 Aug 18 - 07:33 AM
GUEST,jag 15 Aug 18 - 07:18 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 15 Aug 18 - 07:04 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Aug 18 - 07:03 AM
GUEST,jag 15 Aug 18 - 06:46 AM
Vic Smith 15 Aug 18 - 06:46 AM
GUEST,jag 15 Aug 18 - 06:43 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Aug 18 - 06:43 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 15 Aug 18 - 06:36 AM
GUEST,jag 15 Aug 18 - 06:36 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Aug 18 - 06:32 AM
GUEST,Hootenanny 15 Aug 18 - 06:26 AM
GUEST,jag 15 Aug 18 - 06:09 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 15 Aug 18 - 06:06 AM
GUEST,Observer 15 Aug 18 - 05:57 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Aug 18 - 05:13 AM
GUEST,Hootenanny 15 Aug 18 - 05:00 AM
Richard Mellish 15 Aug 18 - 04:59 AM
GUEST,jag 15 Aug 18 - 04:51 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Aug 18 - 04:21 AM
GUEST 15 Aug 18 - 03:36 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Aug 18 - 02:57 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 14 Aug 18 - 09:22 PM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 14 Aug 18 - 09:11 PM
Jim Carroll 14 Aug 18 - 07:18 PM
GUEST,jag 14 Aug 18 - 03:53 PM
GUEST,Hootenanny 14 Aug 18 - 03:50 PM
Steve Gardham 14 Aug 18 - 02:55 PM
Jim Carroll 14 Aug 18 - 02:50 PM
GUEST 14 Aug 18 - 02:28 PM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 14 Aug 18 - 02:16 PM
Jim Carroll 14 Aug 18 - 01:24 PM
Jim Carroll 14 Aug 18 - 01:08 PM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 14 Aug 18 - 12:44 PM
Jim Carroll 14 Aug 18 - 11:17 AM
GUEST 14 Aug 18 - 10:38 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 14 Aug 18 - 10:21 AM
Jim Carroll 14 Aug 18 - 10:13 AM
Vic Smith 14 Aug 18 - 10:07 AM
GUEST,jag 14 Aug 18 - 10:00 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 14 Aug 18 - 09:29 AM
GUEST,jag 14 Aug 18 - 09:18 AM
GUEST,jag 14 Aug 18 - 08:54 AM
Jim Carroll 14 Aug 18 - 08:51 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 14 Aug 18 - 08:26 AM
GUEST,jag 14 Aug 18 - 07:24 AM
GUEST,jag 14 Aug 18 - 07:11 AM
Jim Carroll 14 Aug 18 - 07:09 AM
Jim Carroll 14 Aug 18 - 06:57 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 14 Aug 18 - 06:47 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 14 Aug 18 - 06:46 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 14 Aug 18 - 06:16 AM
Jim Carroll 14 Aug 18 - 06:03 AM
GUEST,jag 14 Aug 18 - 05:35 AM
Sue Allan 14 Aug 18 - 05:20 AM
Jim Carroll 12 Aug 18 - 08:18 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 12 Aug 18 - 08:04 AM
Jim Carroll 12 Aug 18 - 07:39 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 12 Aug 18 - 07:00 AM
Jim Carroll 11 Aug 18 - 09:44 AM
GUEST,jag 11 Aug 18 - 09:27 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 11 Aug 18 - 08:48 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 11 Aug 18 - 08:35 AM
Jim Carroll 11 Aug 18 - 06:24 AM
Jack Campin 11 Aug 18 - 05:44 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 11 Aug 18 - 05:44 AM
Jack Campin 11 Aug 18 - 05:36 AM
Jim Carroll 11 Aug 18 - 05:33 AM
GUEST,jag 11 Aug 18 - 05:00 AM
Jim Carroll 11 Aug 18 - 04:50 AM
GUEST 11 Aug 18 - 04:37 AM
Jim Carroll 11 Aug 18 - 02:51 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 10 Aug 18 - 08:22 PM
Jim Carroll 10 Aug 18 - 01:15 PM
GUEST,jag 10 Aug 18 - 12:47 PM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 10 Aug 18 - 12:08 PM
Jim Carroll 10 Aug 18 - 11:14 AM
GUEST,jag 10 Aug 18 - 10:32 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 10 Aug 18 - 10:18 AM
Jim Carroll 10 Aug 18 - 09:52 AM
GUEST,jag 10 Aug 18 - 09:47 AM
GUEST,jag 10 Aug 18 - 09:31 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 10 Aug 18 - 09:14 AM
Jim Carroll 10 Aug 18 - 09:04 AM
Jim Carroll 10 Aug 18 - 08:29 AM
GUEST,jag 10 Aug 18 - 08:13 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 10 Aug 18 - 07:11 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 10 Aug 18 - 06:49 AM
Jim Carroll 10 Aug 18 - 06:10 AM
Will Fly 10 Aug 18 - 04:22 AM
Jim Carroll 10 Aug 18 - 04:04 AM
Richard Mellish 10 Aug 18 - 02:56 AM
Steve Gardham 09 Aug 18 - 05:58 PM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 09 Aug 18 - 08:38 AM
GUEST,jag 09 Aug 18 - 08:17 AM
GUEST,jag 09 Aug 18 - 08:03 AM
GUEST,jag 09 Aug 18 - 08:02 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 09 Aug 18 - 07:39 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 09 Aug 18 - 06:54 AM
GUEST,jag 09 Aug 18 - 05:42 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Aug 18 - 11:14 AM
GUEST,1594 03 Aug 18 - 10:42 AM
GUEST,Bert Fan 03 Aug 18 - 09:54 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Aug 18 - 04:40 AM
Will Fly 03 Aug 18 - 04:12 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Aug 18 - 03:03 AM
Vic Smith 02 Aug 18 - 03:51 PM
Steve Gardham 02 Aug 18 - 01:25 PM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 02 Aug 18 - 11:58 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Aug 18 - 11:22 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Aug 18 - 11:19 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 02 Aug 18 - 10:29 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Aug 18 - 09:23 AM
GUEST,Jack Campin 02 Aug 18 - 08:40 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Aug 18 - 08:25 AM
Lighter 02 Aug 18 - 07:57 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 02 Aug 18 - 07:52 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Aug 18 - 07:37 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 02 Aug 18 - 06:05 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 02 Aug 18 - 05:56 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Aug 18 - 01:45 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 01 Aug 18 - 09:21 PM
Lighter 01 Aug 18 - 08:34 PM
Jim Carroll 01 Aug 18 - 06:00 PM
Steve Gardham 01 Aug 18 - 04:05 PM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 01 Aug 18 - 06:48 AM
GUEST,KarenH 01 Aug 18 - 05:31 AM
Steve Gardham 31 Jul 18 - 03:37 PM
Steve Gardham 31 Jul 18 - 02:48 PM
Brian Peters 31 Jul 18 - 01:06 PM
Steve Gardham 31 Jul 18 - 10:05 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 31 Jul 18 - 04:17 AM
KarenH 31 Jul 18 - 03:40 AM
Steve Gardham 30 Jul 18 - 06:30 PM
Steve Gardham 30 Jul 18 - 02:05 PM
Vic Smith 30 Jul 18 - 12:22 PM
Billy Weeks 30 Jul 18 - 11:54 AM
GUEST 30 Jul 18 - 11:14 AM
Vic Smith 30 Jul 18 - 10:24 AM
KarenH 30 Jul 18 - 08:34 AM
Vic Smith 30 Jul 18 - 07:23 AM
The Sandman 30 Jul 18 - 06:19 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 29 Jul 18 - 06:00 PM
Vic Smith 29 Jul 18 - 12:08 PM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 29 Jul 18 - 06:40 AM
The Sandman 28 Jul 18 - 01:59 PM
Jim Carroll 28 Jul 18 - 11:47 AM
The Sandman 28 Jul 18 - 11:36 AM
Jim Carroll 28 Jul 18 - 09:52 AM
The Sandman 28 Jul 18 - 09:06 AM
Jim Carroll 28 Jul 18 - 06:28 AM
The Sandman 28 Jul 18 - 04:52 AM
Jim Carroll 28 Jul 18 - 04:17 AM
The Sandman 28 Jul 18 - 03:50 AM
Richard Mellish 28 Jul 18 - 03:33 AM
Brian Peters 28 Jul 18 - 03:17 AM
Jim Carroll 27 Jul 18 - 08:23 PM
The Sandman 27 Jul 18 - 08:12 PM
Brian Peters 27 Jul 18 - 06:51 PM
GUEST,Hootenanny 27 Jul 18 - 06:31 PM
Jim Carroll 27 Jul 18 - 03:45 PM
Richard Mellish 27 Jul 18 - 03:27 PM
GUEST,Hootenanny 27 Jul 18 - 03:22 PM
The Sandman 27 Jul 18 - 03:20 PM
Jim Carroll 27 Jul 18 - 12:57 PM
GUEST,EFDSS Member 27 Jul 18 - 12:01 PM
Vic Smith 27 Jul 18 - 11:37 AM
Jim Carroll 27 Jul 18 - 11:18 AM
Jim Carroll 27 Jul 18 - 10:44 AM
GUEST,Tom Turner 27 Jul 18 - 10:30 AM
Brian Peters 27 Jul 18 - 10:26 AM
Vic Smith 27 Jul 18 - 10:10 AM
GUEST,Shaman 27 Jul 18 - 10:06 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 27 Jul 18 - 10:04 AM
GUEST,Man of few words 27 Jul 18 - 09:39 AM
Jim Carroll 27 Jul 18 - 09:33 AM
GUEST,Man of few words 27 Jul 18 - 09:23 AM
Jim Carroll 27 Jul 18 - 08:57 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 27 Jul 18 - 08:18 AM
Vic Smith 27 Jul 18 - 07:23 AM
The Sandman 27 Jul 18 - 07:03 AM
Vic Smith 27 Jul 18 - 07:03 AM
Brian Peters 27 Jul 18 - 06:57 AM
Jim Carroll 27 Jul 18 - 06:47 AM
Brian Peters 27 Jul 18 - 06:33 AM
Jim Carroll 27 Jul 18 - 05:56 AM
Brian Peters 27 Jul 18 - 05:39 AM
Brian Peters 27 Jul 18 - 05:37 AM
Will Fly 27 Jul 18 - 05:00 AM
GUEST 27 Jul 18 - 04:59 AM
The Sandman 27 Jul 18 - 03:47 AM
Jim Carroll 27 Jul 18 - 03:01 AM
Lighter 26 Jul 18 - 09:54 PM
Jim Carroll 26 Jul 18 - 07:37 PM
GUEST,John Bowden 26 Jul 18 - 07:18 PM
GUEST 26 Jul 18 - 07:15 PM
GUEST 26 Jul 18 - 06:55 PM
GUEST,Phil 26 Jul 18 - 06:34 PM
Vic Smith 26 Jul 18 - 06:30 PM
Vic Smith 26 Jul 18 - 06:27 PM
Steve Gardham 26 Jul 18 - 06:21 PM
GUEST,John Bowden (not a typo!) 26 Jul 18 - 06:02 PM
GUEST,John Bowden (not a typo!) 26 Jul 18 - 05:46 PM
Jim Carroll 26 Jul 18 - 05:21 PM
Jim Carroll 26 Jul 18 - 05:19 PM
Vic Smith 26 Jul 18 - 05:06 PM
Brian Peters 26 Jul 18 - 03:32 PM
Brian Peters 26 Jul 18 - 03:30 PM
Jim Carroll 26 Jul 18 - 03:10 PM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 26 Jul 18 - 02:29 PM
Jim Carroll 26 Jul 18 - 01:52 PM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 26 Jul 18 - 12:37 PM
Jim Carroll 26 Jul 18 - 12:07 PM
Vic Smith 26 Jul 18 - 11:56 AM
Lighter 26 Jul 18 - 11:45 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 26 Jul 18 - 11:41 AM
Vic Smith 26 Jul 18 - 11:37 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 26 Jul 18 - 11:34 AM
FreddyHeadey 26 Jul 18 - 11:25 AM
Vic Smith 26 Jul 18 - 11:21 AM
Jim Carroll 26 Jul 18 - 11:09 AM
Jack Campin 26 Jul 18 - 10:57 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 26 Jul 18 - 10:53 AM
Brian Peters 26 Jul 18 - 10:20 AM
Vic Smith 26 Jul 18 - 10:17 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 26 Jul 18 - 09:50 AM
Vic Smith 26 Jul 18 - 09:35 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 26 Jul 18 - 09:31 AM
Lighter 26 Jul 18 - 09:18 AM
GUEST,jag 26 Jul 18 - 08:47 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 26 Jul 18 - 08:41 AM
Vic Smith 26 Jul 18 - 08:25 AM
Jim Carroll 26 Jul 18 - 08:14 AM
Lighter 26 Jul 18 - 08:03 AM
Vic Smith 26 Jul 18 - 07:16 AM
Jim Carroll 26 Jul 18 - 06:33 AM
Jim Carroll 26 Jul 18 - 05:53 AM
Richard Mellish 26 Jul 18 - 04:25 AM
Jim Carroll 26 Jul 18 - 03:15 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 25 Jul 18 - 12:24 PM
Vic Smith 25 Jul 18 - 09:21 AM
Jack Campin 25 Jul 18 - 08:47 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Jul 18 - 08:43 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 25 Jul 18 - 07:54 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 25 Jul 18 - 06:19 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Jul 18 - 06:15 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Jul 18 - 02:30 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 24 Jul 18 - 09:49 PM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 24 Jul 18 - 09:36 PM
Jim Carroll 24 Jul 18 - 02:50 PM
Jim Carroll 24 Jul 18 - 02:49 PM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 24 Jul 18 - 02:38 PM
Jim Carroll 24 Jul 18 - 11:35 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 24 Jul 18 - 11:26 AM
Jack Campin 24 Jul 18 - 11:13 AM
Jim Carroll 24 Jul 18 - 11:08 AM
Steve Gardham 24 Jul 18 - 10:39 AM
GUEST,Jack Campin 24 Jul 18 - 07:02 AM
Jim Carroll 24 Jul 18 - 05:32 AM
Jim Carroll 24 Jul 18 - 05:25 AM
GUEST,jag 24 Jul 18 - 04:15 AM
Jim Carroll 24 Jul 18 - 03:45 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 24 Jul 18 - 02:12 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 23 Jul 18 - 06:38 PM
Steve Gardham 23 Jul 18 - 06:13 PM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 23 Jul 18 - 04:41 PM
Steve Gardham 23 Jul 18 - 10:39 AM
Vic Smith 23 Jul 18 - 09:56 AM
Jim Carroll 23 Jul 18 - 08:28 AM
Vic Smith 23 Jul 18 - 08:07 AM
Steve Gardham 22 Jul 18 - 11:17 AM
Steve Gardham 22 Jul 18 - 11:15 AM
Steve Gardham 22 Jul 18 - 11:15 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 22 Jul 18 - 07:20 AM
Joe Offer 21 Jul 18 - 10:11 PM
Jeri 21 Jul 18 - 09:24 AM
Jack Campin 21 Jul 18 - 07:56 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 21 Jul 18 - 07:14 AM
Steve Gardham 20 Jul 18 - 04:54 PM
GUEST,Mike Yates 20 Jul 18 - 12:39 PM
Jim Carroll 20 Jul 18 - 12:26 PM
Jack Campin 20 Jul 18 - 12:23 PM
Jim Carroll 20 Jul 18 - 12:10 PM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 20 Jul 18 - 11:32 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 20 Jul 18 - 10:39 AM
Jim Carroll 20 Jul 18 - 08:55 AM
Steve Gardham 20 Jul 18 - 08:45 AM
Steve Gardham 20 Jul 18 - 08:27 AM
Brian Peters 20 Jul 18 - 07:44 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 20 Jul 18 - 07:40 AM
Jim Carroll 20 Jul 18 - 07:37 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 20 Jul 18 - 07:29 AM
Jim Carroll 20 Jul 18 - 04:49 AM
The Sandman 20 Jul 18 - 04:40 AM
Jim Carroll 20 Jul 18 - 03:08 AM
The Sandman 20 Jul 18 - 01:40 AM
Jim Carroll 19 Jul 18 - 08:07 PM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 19 Jul 18 - 06:49 PM
Steve Gardham 19 Jul 18 - 06:27 PM
Jack Campin 19 Jul 18 - 05:18 PM
Steve Gardham 19 Jul 18 - 03:31 PM
Steve Gardham 19 Jul 18 - 03:10 PM
Jim Carroll 19 Jul 18 - 02:54 PM
Steve Gardham 19 Jul 18 - 02:39 PM
Jack Campin 19 Jul 18 - 02:27 PM
Steve Gardham 19 Jul 18 - 02:09 PM
Jim Carroll 19 Jul 18 - 01:17 PM
Steve Gardham 19 Jul 18 - 01:13 PM
Steve Gardham 19 Jul 18 - 12:58 PM
Richard Mellish 19 Jul 18 - 11:58 AM
Jim Carroll 19 Jul 18 - 10:36 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 19 Jul 18 - 10:29 AM
Vic Smith 19 Jul 18 - 09:05 AM
Vic Smith 19 Jul 18 - 09:01 AM
Vic Smith 19 Jul 18 - 08:58 AM
Steve Gardham 19 Jul 18 - 08:55 AM
Jim Carroll 19 Jul 18 - 08:49 AM
The Sandman 19 Jul 18 - 08:44 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 19 Jul 18 - 07:59 AM
Jim Carroll 19 Jul 18 - 04:11 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 18 Jul 18 - 09:05 PM
Brian Peters 18 Jul 18 - 06:22 PM
Steve Gardham 18 Jul 18 - 05:05 PM
GUEST,Hootenanny 18 Jul 18 - 04:38 PM
Vic Smith 18 Jul 18 - 04:18 PM
Steve Gardham 18 Jul 18 - 04:10 PM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 18 Jul 18 - 04:02 PM
Jack Campin 18 Jul 18 - 03:31 PM
Jim Carroll 18 Jul 18 - 02:41 PM
The Sandman 18 Jul 18 - 02:29 PM
Brian Peters 18 Jul 18 - 02:13 PM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 18 Jul 18 - 01:33 PM
Jim Carroll 18 Jul 18 - 01:19 PM
Jack Campin 18 Jul 18 - 10:31 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 18 Jul 18 - 10:23 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 18 Jul 18 - 10:15 AM
Jack Campin 18 Jul 18 - 09:34 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 18 Jul 18 - 09:07 AM
Howard Jones 18 Jul 18 - 08:41 AM
GUEST 18 Jul 18 - 07:20 AM
Jim Carroll 18 Jul 18 - 06:42 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 18 Jul 18 - 06:30 AM
Jim Carroll 18 Jul 18 - 06:07 AM
Jack Campin 18 Jul 18 - 05:27 AM
Jim Carroll 18 Jul 18 - 04:37 AM
Jack Campin 18 Jul 18 - 04:31 AM
The Sandman 18 Jul 18 - 04:11 AM
Jack Campin 18 Jul 18 - 03:42 AM
Jim Carroll 18 Jul 18 - 02:52 AM
The Sandman 17 Jul 18 - 05:45 PM
Jim Carroll 17 Jul 18 - 03:01 PM
Jim Carroll 17 Jul 18 - 02:37 PM
Vic Smith 17 Jul 18 - 02:33 PM
Steve Gardham 17 Jul 18 - 02:22 PM
GUEST,Jack Campin 17 Jul 18 - 02:04 PM
Jim Carroll 17 Jul 18 - 01:26 PM
GUEST,Jack Campin 17 Jul 18 - 12:38 PM
The Sandman 17 Jul 18 - 12:27 PM
Jim Carroll 17 Jul 18 - 12:27 PM
Jim Carroll 17 Jul 18 - 12:23 PM
Jim Carroll 17 Jul 18 - 12:15 PM
GUEST,Jack Campin 17 Jul 18 - 11:58 AM
Jim Carroll 17 Jul 18 - 11:46 AM
Jim Carroll 17 Jul 18 - 11:42 AM
Brian Peters 17 Jul 18 - 11:38 AM
GUEST,Jack Campin 17 Jul 18 - 10:50 AM
Brian Peters 17 Jul 18 - 10:45 AM
Steve Gardham 17 Jul 18 - 10:39 AM
The Sandman 17 Jul 18 - 10:38 AM
GUEST,17 Jul 18 - 09:35 AM 17 Jul 18 - 10:37 AM
Jim Carroll 17 Jul 18 - 10:16 AM
Steve Gardham 17 Jul 18 - 10:05 AM
Steve Gardham 17 Jul 18 - 10:04 AM
Steve Gardham 17 Jul 18 - 09:38 AM
GUEST 17 Jul 18 - 09:35 AM
Jim Carroll 17 Jul 18 - 08:12 AM
The Sandman 17 Jul 18 - 08:00 AM
Jim Carroll 17 Jul 18 - 06:53 AM
Jim Carroll 17 Jul 18 - 06:53 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 17 Jul 18 - 06:28 AM
Jim Carroll 17 Jul 18 - 05:46 AM
Jim Carroll 17 Jul 18 - 05:46 AM
The Sandman 17 Jul 18 - 05:10 AM
The Sandman 17 Jul 18 - 04:22 AM
Jim Carroll 17 Jul 18 - 03:16 AM
Jim Carroll 17 Jul 18 - 03:14 AM
The Sandman 17 Jul 18 - 02:24 AM
Joe Offer 16 Jul 18 - 10:53 PM
Steve Gardham 16 Jul 18 - 06:28 PM
Jim Carroll 16 Jul 18 - 06:02 PM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 16 Jul 18 - 05:25 PM
Vic Smith 16 Jul 18 - 03:53 PM
Steve Gardham 16 Jul 18 - 03:52 PM
Steve Gardham 16 Jul 18 - 03:45 PM
Jim Carroll 16 Jul 18 - 02:39 PM
Vic Smith 16 Jul 18 - 02:33 PM
Jim Carroll 16 Jul 18 - 02:15 PM
Steve Gardham 16 Jul 18 - 01:17 PM
Brian Peters 16 Jul 18 - 01:12 PM
Steve Gardham 16 Jul 18 - 01:10 PM
Brian Peters 16 Jul 18 - 01:02 PM
Vic Smith 16 Jul 18 - 12:09 PM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 16 Jul 18 - 12:04 PM
Jim Carroll 16 Jul 18 - 11:46 AM
Brian Peters 16 Jul 18 - 11:35 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Jul 18 - 11:12 AM
Steve Gardham 16 Jul 18 - 10:56 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Jul 18 - 10:28 AM
Brian Peters 16 Jul 18 - 09:57 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 16 Jul 18 - 09:39 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Jul 18 - 09:37 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Jul 18 - 09:32 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 16 Jul 18 - 09:22 AM
Vic Smith 16 Jul 18 - 08:38 AM
Jack Campin 16 Jul 18 - 08:27 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 16 Jul 18 - 08:01 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Jul 18 - 07:49 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 16 Jul 18 - 06:41 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 16 Jul 18 - 06:31 AM
Jack Campin 16 Jul 18 - 06:12 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Jul 18 - 05:32 AM
The Sandman 16 Jul 18 - 04:20 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Jul 18 - 03:51 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Jul 18 - 07:32 PM
Steve Gardham 15 Jul 18 - 06:01 PM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 15 Jul 18 - 05:21 PM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 15 Jul 18 - 05:10 PM
Steve Gardham 15 Jul 18 - 04:35 PM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 15 Jul 18 - 11:33 AM
Brian Peters 15 Jul 18 - 09:30 AM
Steve Gardham 15 Jul 18 - 09:12 AM
Jack Campin 15 Jul 18 - 07:26 AM
The Sandman 15 Jul 18 - 07:13 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 15 Jul 18 - 06:06 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Jul 18 - 05:59 AM
Brian Peters 15 Jul 18 - 05:58 AM
GUEST,Tootler 15 Jul 18 - 05:56 AM
Jack Campin 15 Jul 18 - 04:58 AM
The Sandman 15 Jul 18 - 04:49 AM
GUEST 15 Jul 18 - 04:38 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 15 Jul 18 - 03:48 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Jul 18 - 03:23 AM
Jack Campin 14 Jul 18 - 05:14 PM
Brian Peters 14 Jul 18 - 04:20 PM
Jim Carroll 14 Jul 18 - 03:47 PM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 14 Jul 18 - 02:25 PM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 14 Jul 18 - 02:09 PM
GUEST,just another guest 14 Jul 18 - 01:45 PM
Brian Peters 14 Jul 18 - 01:10 PM
Richard Mellish 14 Jul 18 - 12:55 PM
Vic Smith 14 Jul 18 - 10:11 AM
The Sandman 14 Jul 18 - 10:01 AM
Jim Carroll 14 Jul 18 - 08:48 AM
Vic Smith 14 Jul 18 - 06:59 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 14 Jul 18 - 06:56 AM
Tootler 14 Jul 18 - 06:18 AM
The Sandman 14 Jul 18 - 05:01 AM
The Sandman 14 Jul 18 - 04:43 AM
Jim Carroll 14 Jul 18 - 04:13 AM
The Sandman 14 Jul 18 - 04:01 AM
Jim Carroll 14 Jul 18 - 03:26 AM
The Sandman 14 Jul 18 - 03:17 AM
Jim Carroll 14 Jul 18 - 03:06 AM
Brian Peters 13 Jul 18 - 07:10 PM
Steve Gardham 13 Jul 18 - 05:39 PM
Jack Campin 13 Jul 18 - 04:58 PM
Vic Smith 13 Jul 18 - 03:46 PM
Steve Gardham 13 Jul 18 - 01:06 PM
GUEST,Hootenanny 13 Jul 18 - 12:26 PM
Brian Peters 13 Jul 18 - 11:03 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 13 Jul 18 - 11:02 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 13 Jul 18 - 10:55 AM
GUEST,just another guest 13 Jul 18 - 10:26 AM
Brian Peters 13 Jul 18 - 09:41 AM
Jack Campin 13 Jul 18 - 09:32 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 13 Jul 18 - 09:31 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Jul 18 - 08:45 AM
Brian Peters 13 Jul 18 - 08:30 AM
GUEST,just another guest 13 Jul 18 - 08:28 AM
GUEST 13 Jul 18 - 08:18 AM
Brian Peters 13 Jul 18 - 08:17 AM
GUEST,just another guest 13 Jul 18 - 08:17 AM
GUEST,just another guest 13 Jul 18 - 08:03 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 13 Jul 18 - 07:59 AM
Brian Peters 13 Jul 18 - 07:51 AM
Jack Campin 13 Jul 18 - 07:05 AM
GUEST,just another guest 13 Jul 18 - 06:30 AM
The Sandman 13 Jul 18 - 05:36 AM
Brian Peters 13 Jul 18 - 05:25 AM
The Sandman 13 Jul 18 - 04:51 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Jul 18 - 03:33 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 12 Jul 18 - 07:16 PM
Jim Carroll 12 Jul 18 - 06:53 PM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 12 Jul 18 - 06:37 PM
Steve Gardham 12 Jul 18 - 06:09 PM
Jim Carroll 12 Jul 18 - 05:36 PM
GUEST 12 Jul 18 - 04:58 PM
Vic Smith 12 Jul 18 - 04:55 PM
Steve Gardham 12 Jul 18 - 04:08 PM
Jim Carroll 12 Jul 18 - 04:06 PM
Vic Smith 12 Jul 18 - 03:50 PM
Vic Smith 12 Jul 18 - 02:38 PM
Brian Peters 12 Jul 18 - 01:52 PM
The Sandman 12 Jul 18 - 01:39 PM
Jim Carroll 12 Jul 18 - 01:31 PM
The Sandman 12 Jul 18 - 01:31 PM
Steve Gardham 12 Jul 18 - 01:22 PM
GUEST,just another guest 12 Jul 18 - 01:20 PM
The Sandman 12 Jul 18 - 01:18 PM
The Sandman 12 Jul 18 - 01:17 PM
Jim Carroll 12 Jul 18 - 12:51 PM
Steve Gardham 12 Jul 18 - 12:40 PM
Steve Gardham 12 Jul 18 - 12:26 PM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 12 Jul 18 - 12:09 PM
GUEST,Jack Campin 12 Jul 18 - 11:59 AM
Lighter 12 Jul 18 - 11:43 AM
GUEST,Jack Campin 12 Jul 18 - 11:35 AM
Brian Peters 12 Jul 18 - 11:13 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 12 Jul 18 - 11:11 AM
Jack Campin 12 Jul 18 - 09:59 AM
Vic Smith 12 Jul 18 - 07:49 AM
Jim Carroll 12 Jul 18 - 02:54 AM
The Sandman 12 Jul 18 - 01:32 AM
Steve Gardham 11 Jul 18 - 06:34 PM
Jim Carroll 11 Jul 18 - 03:04 PM
Lighter 11 Jul 18 - 02:49 PM
The Sandman 11 Jul 18 - 02:31 PM
Jim Carroll 11 Jul 18 - 02:22 PM
GUEST,Brian Peters 11 Jul 18 - 10:48 AM
GUEST 11 Jul 18 - 10:33 AM
Vic Smith 11 Jul 18 - 10:21 AM
Jack Campin 11 Jul 18 - 10:20 AM
Jim Carroll 11 Jul 18 - 09:40 AM
Vic Smith 11 Jul 18 - 09:18 AM
Jack Campin 11 Jul 18 - 09:15 AM
Jim Carroll 11 Jul 18 - 08:54 AM
GUEST,just another guest 11 Jul 18 - 08:41 AM
Vic Smith 11 Jul 18 - 07:53 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 11 Jul 18 - 07:23 AM
Richard Mellish 11 Jul 18 - 07:10 AM
Richard Mellish 11 Jul 18 - 06:16 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 11 Jul 18 - 04:55 AM
Jack Campin 11 Jul 18 - 04:27 AM
Jim Carroll 11 Jul 18 - 03:40 AM
Jim Carroll 11 Jul 18 - 02:58 AM
The Sandman 11 Jul 18 - 12:36 AM
Jim Carroll 10 Jul 18 - 08:48 PM
Brian Peters 10 Jul 18 - 05:43 PM
Richard Mellish 10 Jul 18 - 05:04 PM
Steve Gardham 10 Jul 18 - 04:52 PM
Vic Smith 10 Jul 18 - 10:08 AM
Jack Campin 10 Jul 18 - 09:54 AM
Jim Carroll 10 Jul 18 - 09:32 AM
GUEST,just another guest 10 Jul 18 - 09:24 AM
GUEST,just another guest 10 Jul 18 - 09:13 AM
Jim Carroll 10 Jul 18 - 08:58 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 10 Jul 18 - 07:13 AM
Vic Smith 10 Jul 18 - 06:33 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 10 Jul 18 - 05:54 AM
Jim Carroll 09 Jul 18 - 03:38 PM
GUEST,uniformitarianit 09 Jul 18 - 02:33 PM
The Sandman 09 Jul 18 - 01:57 PM
Howard Jones 09 Jul 18 - 01:04 PM
The Sandman 09 Jul 18 - 10:57 AM
The Sandman 09 Jul 18 - 10:55 AM
GUEST,Mike Yates 09 Jul 18 - 10:28 AM
Jim Carroll 09 Jul 18 - 08:54 AM
GUEST,Jack Campin 09 Jul 18 - 08:20 AM
Jim Carroll 09 Jul 18 - 02:09 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 08 Jul 18 - 05:59 PM
Brian Peters 08 Jul 18 - 05:14 PM
Steve Gardham 08 Jul 18 - 04:46 PM
Steve Gardham 08 Jul 18 - 04:46 PM
Steve Gardham 08 Jul 18 - 04:40 PM
Jim Carroll 08 Jul 18 - 03:43 PM
Steve Gardham 08 Jul 18 - 03:17 PM
Brian Peters 08 Jul 18 - 11:36 AM
Brian Peters 08 Jul 18 - 11:20 AM
Jack Campin 08 Jul 18 - 10:13 AM
Jim Carroll 08 Jul 18 - 09:18 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 08 Jul 18 - 09:08 AM
The Sandman 08 Jul 18 - 08:57 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 08 Jul 18 - 08:13 AM
Vic Smith 08 Jul 18 - 07:44 AM
Richard Mellish 08 Jul 18 - 07:31 AM
Jim Carroll 08 Jul 18 - 07:25 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 08 Jul 18 - 07:24 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 08 Jul 18 - 07:21 AM
Vic Smith 08 Jul 18 - 07:04 AM
Jim Carroll 08 Jul 18 - 06:58 AM
Vic Smith 08 Jul 18 - 06:54 AM
Richard Mellish 08 Jul 18 - 06:05 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 08 Jul 18 - 05:58 AM
Richard Mellish 08 Jul 18 - 05:52 AM
Jim Carroll 08 Jul 18 - 04:06 AM
Brian Peters 08 Jul 18 - 02:55 AM
Jack Campin 07 Jul 18 - 07:16 PM
Brian Peters 07 Jul 18 - 07:06 PM
GUEST,Derek Schofield 07 Jul 18 - 06:31 PM
Brian Peters 07 Jul 18 - 05:43 PM
Steve Gardham 07 Jul 18 - 04:19 PM
Vic Smith 07 Jul 18 - 03:58 PM
Vic Smith 07 Jul 18 - 03:56 PM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 07 Jul 18 - 03:46 PM
Jim Carroll 07 Jul 18 - 03:28 PM
Brian Peters 07 Jul 18 - 01:17 PM
Richard Mellish 07 Jul 18 - 01:12 PM
Brian Peters 07 Jul 18 - 01:11 PM
Jim Carroll 07 Jul 18 - 09:39 AM
GUEST 07 Jul 18 - 09:31 AM
The Sandman 07 Jul 18 - 08:27 AM
Jim Carroll 07 Jul 18 - 08:15 AM
Jim Carroll 07 Jul 18 - 07:08 AM
The Sandman 07 Jul 18 - 06:41 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 07 Jul 18 - 06:37 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 07 Jul 18 - 06:28 AM
Jim Carroll 07 Jul 18 - 06:26 AM
The Sandman 07 Jul 18 - 06:19 AM
GUEST,Jack Campin 07 Jul 18 - 06:19 AM
The Sandman 07 Jul 18 - 06:14 AM
Jim Carroll 07 Jul 18 - 06:02 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 07 Jul 18 - 05:51 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 07 Jul 18 - 05:35 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 07 Jul 18 - 04:42 AM
Brian Peters 07 Jul 18 - 04:15 AM
Jim Carroll 07 Jul 18 - 03:32 AM
Brian Peters 07 Jul 18 - 03:03 AM
Jim Carroll 06 Jul 18 - 09:10 PM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 06 Jul 18 - 06:24 PM
Jack Campin 06 Jul 18 - 05:40 PM
Brian Peters 06 Jul 18 - 05:23 PM
Brian Peters 06 Jul 18 - 04:38 PM
Steve Gardham 06 Jul 18 - 04:13 PM
Richard Mellish 06 Jul 18 - 02:55 PM
Jim Carroll 06 Jul 18 - 12:29 PM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 06 Jul 18 - 12:27 PM
GUEST,The Tailors Goose 06 Jul 18 - 11:44 AM
GUEST,Jack Campin 06 Jul 18 - 11:08 AM
Jim Carroll 06 Jul 18 - 11:03 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 06 Jul 18 - 10:48 AM
Jim Carroll 06 Jul 18 - 10:41 AM
Jack Campin 06 Jul 18 - 09:32 AM
Jim Carroll 06 Jul 18 - 08:25 AM
Howard Jones 06 Jul 18 - 08:23 AM
Jack Campin 06 Jul 18 - 08:09 AM
Howard Jones 06 Jul 18 - 08:01 AM
GUEST,Jack Campin 06 Jul 18 - 08:00 AM
The Sandman 06 Jul 18 - 07:50 AM
Jim Carroll 06 Jul 18 - 07:13 AM
The Sandman 06 Jul 18 - 07:02 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 06 Jul 18 - 07:00 AM
The Sandman 06 Jul 18 - 06:42 AM
Jim Carroll 06 Jul 18 - 06:32 AM
Vic Smith 06 Jul 18 - 06:22 AM
Brian Peters 06 Jul 18 - 06:14 AM
Howard Jones 06 Jul 18 - 06:01 AM
Jim Carroll 06 Jul 18 - 05:58 AM
Brian Peters 06 Jul 18 - 05:48 AM
Jim Carroll 06 Jul 18 - 05:38 AM
Richard Mellish 06 Jul 18 - 05:07 AM
Joe Offer 06 Jul 18 - 05:04 AM
Brian Peters 06 Jul 18 - 05:01 AM
Brian Peters 06 Jul 18 - 04:49 AM
Jim Carroll 06 Jul 18 - 04:16 AM
RTim 05 Jul 18 - 07:08 PM
Steve Gardham 05 Jul 18 - 06:47 PM
Steve Gardham 05 Jul 18 - 06:39 PM
Steve Gardham 05 Jul 18 - 06:34 PM
RTim 05 Jul 18 - 05:58 PM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 05 Jul 18 - 05:39 PM
Joe Offer 05 Jul 18 - 05:37 PM
Steve Gardham 05 Jul 18 - 04:22 PM
Steve Gardham 05 Jul 18 - 04:21 PM
Jim Carroll 05 Jul 18 - 03:25 PM
The Sandman 05 Jul 18 - 03:22 PM
Steve Gardham 05 Jul 18 - 02:32 PM
The Sandman 05 Jul 18 - 12:55 PM
Jack Campin 05 Jul 18 - 12:00 PM
Jack Campin 05 Jul 18 - 10:16 AM
GUEST,Mr Objective 05 Jul 18 - 09:19 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 05 Jul 18 - 08:59 AM
Jim Carroll 05 Jul 18 - 05:35 AM
Jim Carroll 05 Jul 18 - 05:09 AM
Jack Campin 05 Jul 18 - 04:33 AM
Richard Mellish 05 Jul 18 - 04:26 AM
GUEST,John Bowden (not a typo!) 05 Jul 18 - 04:25 AM
Howard Jones 05 Jul 18 - 04:23 AM
The Sandman 05 Jul 18 - 04:18 AM
The Sandman 05 Jul 18 - 03:59 AM
Jim Carroll 05 Jul 18 - 03:43 AM
Jim Carroll 05 Jul 18 - 03:43 AM
Jim Carroll 05 Jul 18 - 03:34 AM
Steve Gardham 04 Jul 18 - 06:17 PM
The Sandman 04 Jul 18 - 05:31 PM
Vic Smith 04 Jul 18 - 04:25 PM
Vic Smith 04 Jul 18 - 04:22 PM
Richard Mellish 04 Jul 18 - 03:22 PM
GUEST,Jack Campin 04 Jul 18 - 02:55 PM
Richard Mellish 04 Jul 18 - 02:54 PM
Jim Carroll 04 Jul 18 - 02:52 PM
Vic Smith 04 Jul 18 - 02:26 PM
The Sandman 04 Jul 18 - 02:15 PM
GUEST,Guest John Bowden 04 Jul 18 - 02:02 PM
Jack Campin 04 Jul 18 - 01:39 PM
The Sandman 04 Jul 18 - 01:10 PM
Jim Carroll 04 Jul 18 - 12:59 PM
Jim Carroll 04 Jul 18 - 12:47 PM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 04 Jul 18 - 12:21 PM
RTim 04 Jul 18 - 12:21 PM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 04 Jul 18 - 11:32 AM
Howard Jones 04 Jul 18 - 10:29 AM
Jim Carroll 04 Jul 18 - 09:49 AM
GUEST,just another guest 04 Jul 18 - 09:10 AM
Jim Carroll 04 Jul 18 - 08:58 AM
Jack Campin 04 Jul 18 - 08:09 AM
GUEST,just another guest 04 Jul 18 - 08:02 AM
Jim Carroll 04 Jul 18 - 05:26 AM
Howard Jones 04 Jul 18 - 05:00 AM
GUEST,Jack Campin 04 Jul 18 - 05:00 AM
Jim Carroll 04 Jul 18 - 03:53 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 03 Jul 18 - 03:56 PM
Richard Mellish 03 Jul 18 - 03:26 PM
Jim Carroll 03 Jul 18 - 02:37 PM
Jim Carroll 03 Jul 18 - 02:37 PM
Jim Carroll 03 Jul 18 - 01:49 PM
The Sandman 03 Jul 18 - 01:25 PM
Jim Carroll 03 Jul 18 - 12:27 PM
Jim Carroll 03 Jul 18 - 12:10 PM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 03 Jul 18 - 12:03 PM
GUEST,just another guest 03 Jul 18 - 11:40 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Jul 18 - 11:07 AM
GUEST,Jack Campin 03 Jul 18 - 10:49 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 03 Jul 18 - 09:56 AM
The Sandman 03 Jul 18 - 04:50 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Jul 18 - 03:45 PM
Jim Carroll 02 Jul 18 - 02:50 PM
Richard Mellish 02 Jul 18 - 02:38 PM
The Sandman 02 Jul 18 - 02:12 PM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 02 Jul 18 - 01:59 PM
Jim Carroll 02 Jul 18 - 10:34 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Jul 18 - 10:29 AM
Vic Smith 02 Jul 18 - 09:58 AM
Vic Smith 02 Jul 18 - 09:54 AM
Dave the Gnome 02 Jul 18 - 09:46 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Jul 18 - 09:24 AM
The Sandman 02 Jul 18 - 08:50 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 02 Jul 18 - 08:48 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 02 Jul 18 - 08:36 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Jul 18 - 08:12 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 02 Jul 18 - 07:50 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 02 Jul 18 - 07:27 AM
Vic Smith 02 Jul 18 - 07:06 AM
GUEST,Jack Campin 02 Jul 18 - 06:10 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Jul 18 - 04:46 AM
GUEST,Derrick 02 Jul 18 - 04:41 AM
The Sandman 02 Jul 18 - 03:50 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Jul 18 - 02:55 AM
GUEST,Derek Schofield 01 Jul 18 - 06:28 PM
GUEST,Rigby 01 Jul 18 - 05:47 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 30 Jun 18 - 07:38 AM
GUEST,Jack Campin 30 Jun 18 - 07:13 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 30 Jun 18 - 06:52 AM
Jim Carroll 29 Jun 18 - 12:41 PM
GUEST,Pauline Valentine 29 Jun 18 - 11:25 AM
Jim Carroll 29 Jun 18 - 10:42 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 29 Jun 18 - 10:31 AM
Jack Campin 29 Jun 18 - 09:16 AM
Jim Carroll 29 Jun 18 - 08:54 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 29 Jun 18 - 08:46 AM
GUEST,Tootler 29 Jun 18 - 08:01 AM
GUEST 29 Jun 18 - 08:00 AM
Dave the Gnome 29 Jun 18 - 07:38 AM
Vic Smith 29 Jun 18 - 07:16 AM
Jim Carroll 29 Jun 18 - 07:04 AM
Vic Smith 29 Jun 18 - 06:48 AM
The Sandman 29 Jun 18 - 04:02 AM
The Sandman 29 Jun 18 - 03:35 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 28 Jun 18 - 01:18 PM
Jim Carroll 28 Jun 18 - 12:12 PM
Vic Smith 28 Jun 18 - 11:26 AM
Steve Gardham 28 Jun 18 - 10:39 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 28 Jun 18 - 10:27 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 28 Jun 18 - 09:39 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Jun 18 - 02:04 AM
The Sandman 25 Jun 18 - 02:01 AM
Jim Carroll 23 Jun 18 - 05:44 AM
Jim Carroll 23 Jun 18 - 05:29 AM
GUEST,JHW 23 Jun 18 - 05:18 AM
GUEST,Guest 22 Jun 18 - 11:26 AM
Jim Carroll 22 Jun 18 - 08:18 AM
GUEST,Guest 22 Jun 18 - 07:27 AM
Jim Carroll 18 Feb 18 - 12:20 PM
r.padgett 18 Feb 18 - 12:01 PM
GUEST,paperback 17 Feb 18 - 03:55 PM
The Sandman 20 Jan 18 - 09:32 AM
Jim Carroll 20 Jan 18 - 06:23 AM
The Sandman 20 Jan 18 - 05:04 AM
Jim Carroll 20 Jan 18 - 04:53 AM
Jim Carroll 20 Jan 18 - 04:51 AM
The Sandman 19 Jan 18 - 03:38 PM
The Sandman 19 Jan 18 - 03:01 PM
GUEST,Derek Schofield 19 Jan 18 - 07:56 AM
Jim Carroll 19 Jan 18 - 06:24 AM
Jim Carroll 19 Jan 18 - 06:20 AM
GUEST,just another guest 19 Jan 18 - 04:50 AM
Jim Carroll 19 Jan 18 - 03:56 AM
GUEST,Jerome Clark 18 Jan 18 - 08:04 PM
The Sandman 18 Jan 18 - 04:18 PM
Jim Carroll 18 Jan 18 - 03:17 PM
Steve Gardham 18 Jan 18 - 03:06 PM
The Sandman 18 Jan 18 - 03:00 PM
Jim Carroll 18 Jan 18 - 02:03 PM
Jim Carroll 18 Jan 18 - 12:59 PM
Jim Carroll 18 Jan 18 - 12:38 PM
Sue Allan 18 Jan 18 - 12:26 PM
GUEST,just another guest 18 Jan 18 - 11:54 AM
Vic Smith 18 Jan 18 - 11:52 AM
Jim Carroll 18 Jan 18 - 11:42 AM
GUEST,just another guest 18 Jan 18 - 11:29 AM
Jim Carroll 18 Jan 18 - 10:57 AM
GUEST,just another guest 18 Jan 18 - 10:31 AM
GUEST,just another guest 18 Jan 18 - 10:24 AM
Jim Carroll 18 Jan 18 - 10:02 AM
GUEST,just another guest 18 Jan 18 - 09:53 AM
Jim Carroll 18 Jan 18 - 08:38 AM
The Sandman 17 Jan 18 - 11:30 AM
Jack Campin 17 Jan 18 - 11:18 AM
GUEST,just another guest 17 Jan 18 - 10:55 AM
Lighter 17 Jan 18 - 09:33 AM
GUEST,just another guest 17 Jan 18 - 06:57 AM
Jack Campin 17 Jan 18 - 06:09 AM
Jim Carroll 17 Jan 18 - 06:04 AM
Jack Campin 17 Jan 18 - 05:41 AM
Jim Carroll 17 Jan 18 - 03:54 AM
The Sandman 16 Jan 18 - 02:31 PM
Jim Carroll 16 Jan 18 - 02:29 PM
Jim Carroll 16 Jan 18 - 02:27 PM
GUEST,just another guest 16 Jan 18 - 01:19 PM
Jim Carroll 16 Jan 18 - 12:58 PM
GUEST,just another guest 16 Jan 18 - 10:35 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Jan 18 - 10:18 AM
Richard Mellish 16 Jan 18 - 09:54 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Jan 18 - 08:46 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Jan 18 - 08:45 AM
Richard Mellish 16 Jan 18 - 07:56 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Jan 18 - 04:36 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Jan 18 - 04:33 AM
The Sandman 16 Jan 18 - 03:57 AM
Lighter 15 Jan 18 - 07:52 PM
Richard Mellish 15 Jan 18 - 06:46 PM
The Sandman 15 Jan 18 - 01:16 PM
Jim Carroll 15 Jan 18 - 01:15 PM
Lighter 15 Jan 18 - 01:03 PM
Richard Mellish 15 Jan 18 - 12:29 PM
Jim Carroll 15 Jan 18 - 03:22 AM
Tootler 14 Jan 18 - 06:39 PM
GUEST,just another guest 14 Jan 18 - 03:36 PM
Jim Carroll 14 Jan 18 - 03:05 PM
GUEST,just another guest 14 Jan 18 - 02:10 PM
Jim Carroll 14 Jan 18 - 01:33 PM
GUEST,Jerome Clark 14 Jan 18 - 12:29 PM
Jim Carroll 14 Jan 18 - 11:45 AM
Howard Jones 14 Jan 18 - 06:01 AM
Richard Mellish 14 Jan 18 - 05:49 AM
GUEST,Jerome Clark 13 Jan 18 - 08:29 PM
Jim Carroll 13 Jan 18 - 08:59 AM
Steve Gardham 13 Jan 18 - 08:57 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Jan 18 - 07:58 AM
GUEST,Derek Schofield 13 Jan 18 - 07:57 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Jan 18 - 05:08 AM
Steve Gardham 12 Jan 18 - 04:52 PM
Steve Gardham 12 Jan 18 - 04:38 PM
Steve Gardham 12 Jan 18 - 04:37 PM
Steve Gardham 12 Jan 18 - 04:36 PM
Steve Gardham 12 Jan 18 - 04:31 PM
Steve Gardham 12 Jan 18 - 04:28 PM
Steve Gardham 12 Jan 18 - 04:22 PM
GUEST 12 Jan 18 - 04:11 PM
Richard Mellish 12 Jan 18 - 03:32 PM
Steve Gardham 12 Jan 18 - 03:08 PM
Jim Carroll 12 Jan 18 - 03:00 PM
Steve Gardham 12 Jan 18 - 02:01 PM
Steve Gardham 12 Jan 18 - 01:58 PM
Jim Carroll 12 Jan 18 - 01:55 PM
GUEST,just another guest 12 Jan 18 - 01:45 PM
Steve Gardham 12 Jan 18 - 01:43 PM
Richard Mellish 12 Jan 18 - 01:24 PM
Steve Gardham 12 Jan 18 - 01:24 PM
Jim Carroll 12 Jan 18 - 01:11 PM
Jim Carroll 12 Jan 18 - 12:55 PM
Steve Gardham 12 Jan 18 - 12:46 PM
RTim 12 Jan 18 - 11:34 AM
Jim Carroll 12 Jan 18 - 11:29 AM
Jim Carroll 12 Jan 18 - 11:23 AM
Steve Gardham 12 Jan 18 - 10:31 AM
Richard Mellish 12 Jan 18 - 10:10 AM
Jim Carroll 12 Jan 18 - 05:00 AM
GUEST,just another guest 11 Jan 18 - 05:46 PM
GUEST,Rigby 11 Jan 18 - 05:10 PM
Steve Gardham 11 Jan 18 - 04:48 PM
Steve Gardham 11 Jan 18 - 04:00 PM
Richard Mellish 11 Jan 18 - 03:54 PM
Howard Jones 11 Jan 18 - 03:36 PM
Steve Gardham 11 Jan 18 - 03:11 PM
Steve Gardham 11 Jan 18 - 03:10 PM
Steve Gardham 11 Jan 18 - 03:03 PM
Steve Gardham 11 Jan 18 - 02:51 PM
Jim Carroll 11 Jan 18 - 02:10 PM
Jim Carroll 11 Jan 18 - 02:02 PM
Richard Mellish 11 Jan 18 - 01:55 PM
GUEST,just another guest 11 Jan 18 - 12:53 PM
Lighter 11 Jan 18 - 12:40 PM
Jim Carroll 11 Jan 18 - 12:22 PM
Steve Gardham 11 Jan 18 - 11:22 AM
Jim Carroll 11 Jan 18 - 08:05 AM
Jim Carroll 11 Jan 18 - 08:02 AM
Vic Smith 11 Jan 18 - 06:37 AM
Jim Carroll 11 Jan 18 - 05:53 AM
GUEST,julia L 11 Jan 18 - 05:49 AM
GUEST,just another guest 11 Jan 18 - 05:20 AM
Jim Carroll 11 Jan 18 - 04:46 AM
Jim Carroll 11 Jan 18 - 04:39 AM
Richard Mellish 11 Jan 18 - 04:38 AM
Steve Gardham 10 Jan 18 - 03:07 PM
Steve Gardham 10 Jan 18 - 03:00 PM
Steve Gardham 10 Jan 18 - 02:58 PM
Jim Carroll 10 Jan 18 - 02:55 PM
Jim Carroll 10 Jan 18 - 01:41 PM
Steve Gardham 10 Jan 18 - 01:31 PM
Lighter 10 Jan 18 - 09:37 AM
Howard Jones 10 Jan 18 - 09:26 AM
GUEST,just anothe guest 10 Jan 18 - 08:54 AM
GUEST,Just another guest 10 Jan 18 - 08:52 AM
Steve Gardham 10 Jan 18 - 08:29 AM
Richard Mellish 10 Jan 18 - 06:32 AM
Jack Campin 10 Jan 18 - 05:49 AM
Jim Carroll 10 Jan 18 - 05:41 AM
Joe Offer 09 Jan 18 - 06:02 PM
Steve Gardham 09 Jan 18 - 05:54 PM
Steve Gardham 09 Jan 18 - 05:44 PM
Steve Gardham 09 Jan 18 - 05:41 PM
Steve Gardham 09 Jan 18 - 05:35 PM
Steve Gardham 09 Jan 18 - 05:29 PM
Vic Smith 09 Jan 18 - 03:09 PM
Brian Peters 09 Jan 18 - 02:54 PM
Jim Carroll 09 Jan 18 - 02:45 PM
Steve Gardham 09 Jan 18 - 02:19 PM
Jim Carroll 09 Jan 18 - 01:27 PM
Jim Carroll 09 Jan 18 - 01:19 PM
Vic Smith 09 Jan 18 - 01:15 PM
Jim Carroll 09 Jan 18 - 01:14 PM
Jim Carroll 09 Jan 18 - 01:07 PM
GUEST,just another guest 09 Jan 18 - 12:52 PM
Jim Carroll 09 Jan 18 - 12:47 PM
Jack Campin 09 Jan 18 - 12:35 PM
GUEST,just another guest 09 Jan 18 - 12:23 PM
GUEST,just another guest 09 Jan 18 - 12:09 PM
Richard Mellish 09 Jan 18 - 12:08 PM
TheSnail 09 Jan 18 - 11:52 AM
Jim Carroll 09 Jan 18 - 11:33 AM
Jim Carroll 09 Jan 18 - 11:21 AM
Vic Smith 09 Jan 18 - 11:17 AM
Jim Carroll 09 Jan 18 - 10:49 AM
GUEST,just another guest 09 Jan 18 - 10:22 AM
TheSnail 09 Jan 18 - 09:34 AM
TheSnail 09 Jan 18 - 09:31 AM
Jim Carroll 09 Jan 18 - 09:30 AM
Vic Smith 09 Jan 18 - 09:19 AM
TheSnail 09 Jan 18 - 09:12 AM
Jim Carroll 09 Jan 18 - 08:58 AM
Vic Smith 09 Jan 18 - 08:48 AM
Lighter 09 Jan 18 - 08:41 AM
Jim Carroll 09 Jan 18 - 08:16 AM
TheSnail 09 Jan 18 - 07:52 AM
GUEST 09 Jan 18 - 07:31 AM
Jim Carroll 09 Jan 18 - 07:12 AM
Vic Smith 09 Jan 18 - 07:10 AM
Jim Carroll 09 Jan 18 - 07:02 AM
GUEST,Derek Schofield 09 Jan 18 - 06:55 AM
Richard Mellish 09 Jan 18 - 05:42 AM
Jim Carroll 09 Jan 18 - 04:58 AM
Richard Mellish 09 Jan 18 - 04:46 AM
The Sandman 09 Jan 18 - 03:41 AM
Steve Gardham 09 Jan 18 - 03:35 AM
Lighter 08 Jan 18 - 06:29 PM
Steve Gardham 08 Jan 18 - 06:14 PM
Steve Gardham 08 Jan 18 - 06:09 PM
Richard Mellish 08 Jan 18 - 05:41 PM
Steve Gardham 08 Jan 18 - 03:58 PM
Vic Smith 08 Jan 18 - 03:41 PM
Steve Gardham 08 Jan 18 - 03:26 PM
Steve Gardham 08 Jan 18 - 03:16 PM
Steve Gardham 08 Jan 18 - 03:06 PM
Jim Carroll 08 Jan 18 - 02:52 PM
Steve Gardham 08 Jan 18 - 02:51 PM
GUEST,Ed 08 Jan 18 - 02:28 PM
Steve Gardham 08 Jan 18 - 02:28 PM
Steve Gardham 08 Jan 18 - 01:59 PM
Jim Carroll 08 Jan 18 - 01:44 PM
Richard Mellish 08 Jan 18 - 01:39 PM
Jim Carroll 08 Jan 18 - 01:35 PM
TheSnail 08 Jan 18 - 01:15 PM
Jim Carroll 08 Jan 18 - 01:02 PM
Jim Carroll 08 Jan 18 - 12:57 PM
Steve Gardham 08 Jan 18 - 12:49 PM
Steve Gardham 08 Jan 18 - 12:47 PM
Jim Carroll 08 Jan 18 - 12:41 PM
Lighter 08 Jan 18 - 12:13 PM
Vic Smith 08 Jan 18 - 12:12 PM
Jim Carroll 08 Jan 18 - 11:37 AM
Vic Smith 08 Jan 18 - 11:31 AM
Jim Carroll 08 Jan 18 - 11:26 AM
Richard Mellish 08 Jan 18 - 11:11 AM
Steve Gardham 08 Jan 18 - 10:52 AM
Steve Gardham 08 Jan 18 - 10:49 AM
Steve Gardham 08 Jan 18 - 10:45 AM
Steve Gardham 08 Jan 18 - 10:37 AM
Jim Carroll 08 Jan 18 - 10:27 AM
Steve Gardham 08 Jan 18 - 10:02 AM
Jim Carroll 08 Jan 18 - 04:57 AM
Jim Carroll 08 Jan 18 - 04:26 AM
Jim Carroll 08 Jan 18 - 04:22 AM
Jim Carroll 08 Jan 18 - 03:54 AM
Lighter 07 Jan 18 - 08:17 PM
Steve Gardham 07 Jan 18 - 05:46 PM
Richard Mellish 07 Jan 18 - 05:32 PM
Steve Gardham 07 Jan 18 - 05:28 PM
Howard Jones 07 Jan 18 - 02:34 PM
Jim Carroll 07 Jan 18 - 02:01 PM
Steve Gardham 07 Jan 18 - 01:33 PM
Jim Carroll 07 Jan 18 - 01:05 PM
Vic Smith 07 Jan 18 - 12:45 PM
Jim Carroll 07 Jan 18 - 12:38 PM
Jim Carroll 07 Jan 18 - 12:35 PM
Steve Gardham 07 Jan 18 - 12:33 PM
Steve Gardham 07 Jan 18 - 12:23 PM
Vic Smith 07 Jan 18 - 12:10 PM
Steve Gardham 07 Jan 18 - 12:09 PM
Steve Gardham 07 Jan 18 - 12:07 PM
Steve Gardham 07 Jan 18 - 11:58 AM
Steve Gardham 07 Jan 18 - 11:54 AM
Jim Carroll 07 Jan 18 - 11:22 AM
Severn 07 Jan 18 - 11:04 AM
Steve Gardham 07 Jan 18 - 11:01 AM
Steve Gardham 07 Jan 18 - 10:58 AM
Steve Gardham 07 Jan 18 - 10:56 AM
Severn 07 Jan 18 - 10:29 AM
Severn 07 Jan 18 - 10:17 AM
The Sandman 07 Jan 18 - 09:46 AM
Jim Carroll 07 Jan 18 - 09:32 AM
Howard Jones 07 Jan 18 - 09:32 AM
Steve Gardham 07 Jan 18 - 09:26 AM
Steve Gardham 07 Jan 18 - 09:00 AM
GUEST,Rigby 07 Jan 18 - 08:22 AM
Jim Carroll 07 Jan 18 - 08:21 AM
Steve Gardham 07 Jan 18 - 07:56 AM
Jim Carroll 07 Jan 18 - 06:58 AM
GUEST,Rigby 07 Jan 18 - 05:40 AM
Jim Carroll 07 Jan 18 - 05:19 AM
Steve Gardham 07 Jan 18 - 04:41 AM
Jim Carroll 07 Jan 18 - 04:06 AM
Steve Gardham 06 Jan 18 - 03:47 PM
Steve Gardham 06 Jan 18 - 03:32 PM
Jim Carroll 06 Jan 18 - 03:28 PM
Richard Mellish 06 Jan 18 - 03:16 PM
The Sandman 06 Jan 18 - 03:12 PM
Steve Gardham 06 Jan 18 - 02:08 PM
Jim Carroll 06 Jan 18 - 10:26 AM
Jim Carroll 06 Jan 18 - 10:24 AM
Vic Smith 06 Jan 18 - 10:14 AM
Jim Carroll 06 Jan 18 - 09:47 AM
Richard Mellish 06 Jan 18 - 09:40 AM
Howard Jones 06 Jan 18 - 08:16 AM
Jim Carroll 06 Jan 18 - 08:03 AM
Richard Mellish 06 Jan 18 - 07:07 AM
Jim Carroll 06 Jan 18 - 06:00 AM
Richard Mellish 06 Jan 18 - 05:35 AM
Jim Carroll 06 Jan 18 - 04:59 AM
Steve Gardham 05 Jan 18 - 05:39 PM
Steve Gardham 05 Jan 18 - 02:00 PM
Jim Carroll 05 Jan 18 - 02:00 PM
Jim Carroll 05 Jan 18 - 01:33 PM
RTim 05 Jan 18 - 01:15 PM
Jim Carroll 05 Jan 18 - 01:00 PM
Jim Carroll 05 Jan 18 - 12:46 PM
Richard Mellish 05 Jan 18 - 12:41 PM
Brian Peters 05 Jan 18 - 12:16 PM
Jim Carroll 05 Jan 18 - 11:51 AM
Brian Peters 05 Jan 18 - 10:00 AM
The Sandman 05 Jan 18 - 07:54 AM
Jim Carroll 05 Jan 18 - 05:00 AM
Howard Jones 05 Jan 18 - 04:36 AM
Jim Carroll 04 Jan 18 - 03:27 PM
Steve Gardham 04 Jan 18 - 03:11 PM
The Sandman 04 Jan 18 - 11:54 AM
Jim Carroll 04 Jan 18 - 11:10 AM
Richard Mellish 04 Jan 18 - 10:54 AM
Jim Carroll 04 Jan 18 - 10:14 AM
GUEST 04 Jan 18 - 09:45 AM
Richard Mellish 04 Jan 18 - 06:26 AM
Steve Gardham 03 Jan 18 - 05:38 PM
Steve Gardham 03 Jan 18 - 05:25 PM
Steve Gardham 03 Jan 18 - 05:06 PM
Steve Gardham 03 Jan 18 - 04:40 PM
GUEST 03 Jan 18 - 04:22 PM
Vic Smith 03 Jan 18 - 03:54 PM
Jim Carroll 03 Jan 18 - 02:17 PM
Jim Carroll 03 Jan 18 - 01:41 PM
The Sandman 03 Jan 18 - 01:15 PM
Richard Mellish 03 Jan 18 - 01:07 PM
The Sandman 03 Jan 18 - 12:58 PM
Brian Peters 03 Jan 18 - 12:54 PM
The Sandman 03 Jan 18 - 12:37 PM
Jim Carroll 03 Jan 18 - 12:34 PM
The Sandman 03 Jan 18 - 12:08 PM
Brian Peters 03 Jan 18 - 11:55 AM
GUEST,Rigby 03 Jan 18 - 11:39 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Jan 18 - 11:20 AM
GUEST,Rigby 03 Jan 18 - 10:33 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Jan 18 - 10:24 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Jan 18 - 10:06 AM
GUEST,Hootenanny 03 Jan 18 - 10:02 AM
Howard Jones 03 Jan 18 - 09:56 AM
GUEST,Rigby 03 Jan 18 - 09:32 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Jan 18 - 08:58 AM
GUEST,Rigby 03 Jan 18 - 08:54 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Jan 18 - 08:45 AM
Howard Jones 03 Jan 18 - 08:44 AM
Richard Mellish 03 Jan 18 - 08:19 AM
GUEST,Rigby 03 Jan 18 - 07:36 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Jan 18 - 07:27 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Jan 18 - 07:25 AM
The Sandman 03 Jan 18 - 07:10 AM
Richard Mellish 03 Jan 18 - 06:46 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Jan 18 - 05:40 AM
Richard Mellish 03 Jan 18 - 05:27 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Jan 18 - 05:09 AM
r.padgett 03 Jan 18 - 04:36 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Jan 18 - 04:23 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Jan 18 - 04:21 AM
nickp 03 Jan 18 - 04:08 AM
Steve Gardham 02 Jan 18 - 07:29 PM
Vic Smith 02 Jan 18 - 05:23 PM
GUEST,Rigby 02 Jan 18 - 03:59 PM
Jim Carroll 02 Jan 18 - 03:02 PM
GUEST,Rigby 02 Jan 18 - 02:08 PM
Jim Carroll 02 Jan 18 - 12:51 PM
GUEST,Rigby 02 Jan 18 - 12:10 PM
Jim Carroll 02 Jan 18 - 11:41 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Jan 18 - 11:35 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Jan 18 - 11:27 AM
Steve Gardham 02 Jan 18 - 11:23 AM
GUEST,Rigby 02 Jan 18 - 10:19 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Jan 18 - 10:03 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Jan 18 - 09:58 AM
Vic Smith 02 Jan 18 - 09:50 AM
GUEST,Rigby 02 Jan 18 - 09:30 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Jan 18 - 08:34 AM
GUEST,Rigby 02 Jan 18 - 07:18 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Jan 18 - 05:09 AM
Richard Mellish 01 Jan 18 - 05:39 PM
Jim Carroll 31 Dec 17 - 11:38 AM
Steve Gardham 31 Dec 17 - 10:36 AM
GUEST,Rigby 31 Dec 17 - 10:08 AM
Richard Mellish 31 Dec 17 - 08:08 AM
GUEST,CJ 21 Dec 17 - 07:00 PM
The Sandman 21 Dec 17 - 04:21 PM
Jim Carroll 21 Dec 17 - 03:01 PM
Jim Carroll 21 Dec 17 - 02:37 PM
Steve Gardham 21 Dec 17 - 02:22 PM
Steve Gardham 21 Dec 17 - 02:11 PM
Steve Gardham 21 Dec 17 - 02:10 PM
Jim Carroll 21 Dec 17 - 01:41 PM
Jim Carroll 21 Dec 17 - 01:04 PM
Steve Gardham 21 Dec 17 - 11:31 AM
Jim Carroll 21 Dec 17 - 11:15 AM
Steve Gardham 21 Dec 17 - 10:57 AM
Vic Smith 21 Dec 17 - 10:30 AM
Jim Carroll 21 Dec 17 - 10:27 AM
Steve Gardham 21 Dec 17 - 09:55 AM
Steve Gardham 21 Dec 17 - 09:44 AM
Jim Carroll 21 Dec 17 - 06:37 AM
Vic Smith 21 Dec 17 - 06:33 AM
Jim Carroll 21 Dec 17 - 06:18 AM
Richard Mellish 21 Dec 17 - 05:58 AM
Jim Carroll 21 Dec 17 - 05:11 AM
Steve Gardham 20 Dec 17 - 04:26 PM
Vic Smith 20 Dec 17 - 04:11 PM
Steve Gardham 20 Dec 17 - 03:36 PM
Steve Gardham 20 Dec 17 - 03:35 PM
Jim Carroll 20 Dec 17 - 07:44 AM
Vic Smith 20 Dec 17 - 07:14 AM
Jim Carroll 20 Dec 17 - 04:56 AM
GUEST,Jerome Clark 19 Dec 17 - 08:56 PM
Jim Carroll 19 Dec 17 - 07:51 PM
Jim Carroll 19 Dec 17 - 07:26 PM
Steve Gardham 19 Dec 17 - 05:36 PM
The Sandman 19 Dec 17 - 05:16 PM
Steve Gardham 19 Dec 17 - 04:12 PM
RTim 19 Dec 17 - 03:57 PM
Steve Gardham 19 Dec 17 - 03:12 PM
Steve Gardham 19 Dec 17 - 03:08 PM
Jim Carroll 19 Dec 17 - 02:59 PM
Steve Gardham 19 Dec 17 - 02:57 PM
Jim Carroll 19 Dec 17 - 02:46 PM
Vic Smith 19 Dec 17 - 02:32 PM
Steve Gardham 19 Dec 17 - 01:41 PM
Jim Carroll 19 Dec 17 - 12:54 PM
Steve Gardham 19 Dec 17 - 12:39 PM
Jim Carroll 19 Dec 17 - 12:33 PM
Steve Gardham 19 Dec 17 - 12:29 PM
Jim Carroll 19 Dec 17 - 11:35 AM
Steve Gardham 19 Dec 17 - 10:34 AM
Steve Gardham 19 Dec 17 - 09:30 AM
GUEST 19 Dec 17 - 08:08 AM
GUEST,guest jim carroll admirer 19 Dec 17 - 08:07 AM
Jim Carroll 19 Dec 17 - 07:27 AM
Vic Smith 19 Dec 17 - 07:07 AM
Vic Smith 19 Dec 17 - 06:28 AM
Vic Smith 19 Dec 17 - 06:20 AM
The Sandman 19 Dec 17 - 05:14 AM
Jim Carroll 19 Dec 17 - 04:45 AM
Steve Gardham 18 Dec 17 - 05:17 PM
Jim Carroll 18 Dec 17 - 04:34 PM
Jim Carroll 18 Dec 17 - 04:19 PM
Steve Gardham 18 Dec 17 - 03:27 PM
Steve Gardham 18 Dec 17 - 03:24 PM
Jim Carroll 18 Dec 17 - 02:59 PM
Steve Gardham 18 Dec 17 - 02:01 PM
Steve Gardham 18 Dec 17 - 01:53 PM
The Sandman 18 Dec 17 - 01:08 PM
Jim Carroll 18 Dec 17 - 11:57 AM
Jim Carroll 18 Dec 17 - 11:47 AM
Steve Gardham 18 Dec 17 - 11:25 AM
GUEST,Jon Dudley 18 Dec 17 - 11:14 AM
Vic Smith 18 Dec 17 - 10:29 AM
Jim Carroll 18 Dec 17 - 09:47 AM
Jim Carroll 18 Dec 17 - 08:43 AM
The Sandman 18 Dec 17 - 08:19 AM
Steve Gardham 18 Dec 17 - 08:05 AM
Jim Carroll 18 Dec 17 - 03:31 AM
Jim Carroll 18 Dec 17 - 03:27 AM
The Sandman 18 Dec 17 - 02:21 AM
Jim Carroll 17 Dec 17 - 07:14 PM
Vic Smith 17 Dec 17 - 04:21 PM
Steve Gardham 17 Dec 17 - 03:18 PM
Jim Carroll 17 Dec 17 - 02:52 PM
Jim Carroll 17 Dec 17 - 02:42 PM
Steve Gardham 17 Dec 17 - 02:33 PM
Steve Gardham 17 Dec 17 - 02:22 PM
The Sandman 17 Dec 17 - 02:21 PM
Steve Gardham 17 Dec 17 - 02:19 PM
Steve Gardham 17 Dec 17 - 02:12 PM
Steve Gardham 17 Dec 17 - 02:04 PM
Jim Carroll 17 Dec 17 - 01:39 PM
Tootler 17 Dec 17 - 01:28 PM
Jim Carroll 17 Dec 17 - 11:55 AM
Jim Carroll 17 Dec 17 - 11:48 AM
Steve Gardham 17 Dec 17 - 10:24 AM
Steve Gardham 17 Dec 17 - 09:58 AM
Steve Gardham 17 Dec 17 - 09:40 AM
Steve Gardham 17 Dec 17 - 09:34 AM
Jim Carroll 17 Dec 17 - 06:24 AM
Vic Smith 17 Dec 17 - 05:56 AM
Jim Carroll 17 Dec 17 - 04:32 AM
Jim Carroll 17 Dec 17 - 04:30 AM
The Sandman 17 Dec 17 - 02:37 AM
The Sandman 17 Dec 17 - 02:34 AM
Steve Gardham 16 Dec 17 - 04:19 PM
GUEST,Derek Schofield 15 Dec 17 - 06:36 PM
GUEST 15 Dec 17 - 06:12 PM
Steve Gardham 15 Dec 17 - 03:41 PM
The Sandman 15 Dec 17 - 03:27 PM
The Sandman 15 Dec 17 - 03:23 PM
Steve Gardham 15 Dec 17 - 03:20 PM
Jim Carroll 15 Dec 17 - 02:51 PM
Lighter 15 Dec 17 - 02:01 PM
RTim 15 Dec 17 - 01:51 PM
Vic Smith 15 Dec 17 - 01:22 PM
Lighter 15 Dec 17 - 01:11 PM
Jim Carroll 15 Dec 17 - 12:49 PM
Jim Carroll 15 Dec 17 - 12:46 PM
Vic Smith 15 Dec 17 - 12:41 PM
Jim Carroll 15 Dec 17 - 12:26 PM
RTim 15 Dec 17 - 11:34 AM
Steve Gardham 15 Dec 17 - 11:12 AM
Steve Gardham 15 Dec 17 - 11:09 AM
Lighter 15 Dec 17 - 11:04 AM
Steve Gardham 15 Dec 17 - 10:59 AM
Howard Jones 15 Dec 17 - 10:57 AM
GUEST,Derek Schofield 15 Dec 17 - 10:43 AM
GUEST,Derek Schofield 15 Dec 17 - 10:42 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Dec 17 - 10:04 AM
Vic Smith 15 Dec 17 - 08:44 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Dec 17 - 08:43 AM
Howard Jones 15 Dec 17 - 08:07 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Dec 17 - 07:58 AM
Lighter 15 Dec 17 - 07:41 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Dec 17 - 07:38 AM
Richard Mellish 15 Dec 17 - 06:52 AM
Howard Jones 15 Dec 17 - 06:44 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Dec 17 - 06:11 AM
RTim 14 Dec 17 - 06:57 PM
Jim Carroll 14 Dec 17 - 03:14 PM
Steve Gardham 14 Dec 17 - 02:40 PM
Jim Carroll 14 Dec 17 - 02:13 PM
Steve Gardham 14 Dec 17 - 01:41 PM
Jim Carroll 14 Dec 17 - 08:48 AM
Lighter 14 Dec 17 - 08:42 AM
Vic Smith 14 Dec 17 - 06:32 AM
Vic Smith 14 Dec 17 - 06:23 AM
Jim Carroll 14 Dec 17 - 06:07 AM
GUEST,Jon Dudley 14 Dec 17 - 06:02 AM
GUEST,Hootenanny 14 Dec 17 - 05:49 AM
Jim Carroll 14 Dec 17 - 04:12 AM
Steve Gardham 13 Dec 17 - 03:18 PM
GUEST,Jon Dudley 13 Dec 17 - 04:17 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Dec 17 - 04:07 AM
Steve Gardham 13 Dec 17 - 03:17 AM
Jon Dudley 13 Dec 17 - 02:50 AM
GUEST 13 Dec 17 - 02:39 AM
Steve Gardham 12 Dec 17 - 03:33 PM
Jim Carroll 12 Dec 17 - 10:29 AM
Jim Carroll 12 Dec 17 - 09:52 AM
Richard Mellish 12 Dec 17 - 09:29 AM
Jim Carroll 12 Dec 17 - 08:10 AM
Jim Carroll 12 Dec 17 - 07:04 AM
Vic Smith 12 Dec 17 - 06:39 AM
Vic Smith 12 Dec 17 - 06:24 AM
Howard Jones 12 Dec 17 - 06:14 AM
Jim Carroll 11 Dec 17 - 12:59 PM
Jim Carroll 11 Dec 17 - 12:37 PM
Billy Weeks 11 Dec 17 - 11:39 AM
Billy Weeks 11 Dec 17 - 11:37 AM
Jim Carroll 11 Dec 17 - 07:46 AM
Billy Weeks 11 Dec 17 - 07:20 AM
Jim Carroll 09 Dec 17 - 01:31 PM
Brian Peters 09 Dec 17 - 01:08 PM
Jim Carroll 09 Dec 17 - 11:59 AM
Brian Peters 09 Dec 17 - 11:17 AM
Jim Carroll 09 Dec 17 - 08:18 AM
Jim Carroll 09 Dec 17 - 07:41 AM
Vic Smith 09 Dec 17 - 06:31 AM
Jim Carroll 09 Dec 17 - 05:25 AM
GUEST,Jon Dudley 09 Dec 17 - 05:01 AM
Jim Carroll 08 Dec 17 - 09:21 AM
Vic Smith 08 Dec 17 - 09:08 AM
Vic Smith 08 Dec 17 - 09:04 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Nov 17 - 09:24 AM
Jack Campin 15 Nov 17 - 08:46 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Nov 17 - 06:47 AM
GUEST,Martin Ryan 15 Nov 17 - 06:21 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Nov 17 - 05:20 AM
GUEST,Martin Ryan 15 Nov 17 - 04:06 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Nov 17 - 03:34 AM
Jack Campin 14 Nov 17 - 08:51 AM
JHW 13 Nov 17 - 06:22 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Nov 17 - 03:58 AM
Jim Carroll 11 Nov 17 - 08:44 AM
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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 03:49 AM

Sorry Cj - didn't see this
You can here the Clare singers we recorded on the Clare County Library website - Google 'Carroll, Mackenzie Collection at Clare County Library'
There is some in the 'Irish Traditional Music Archive' site - Clare singers and some Travellers
Mary Delaney, the Irish Traveller can be googled singing 'What Will We Do' and 'Buried in Kilkenny' - both well worth seeking out
There's another site on 'The Carroll Mackenzie recordings I stumbled across last month - no idea who put it up but I'm delighted they did
Musical Traditions carries two double CD of our work ' Around the Hills of Clare' (Clare singers) and 'From Puck to Appleby (Travellers)
We are depositing our collectio in Limerick Uni's 'World Music Department' - there is talk of setting up a Travellers website - all in the air so far
Unfortunately Walter Pardon and some other Norfolk singers reside in a locked vault in the National Library on Euston Road - and have done for several decades - no money and not enough interest to put them up

Can I say that if anybody is interested I'm more than happy to send people any of our recordings via Dropbox or PCloud - there are a number of radio programmes on our work, particularly with Travellers, and also a rather good (he boasted) double-programme on the work of Ewan MacColl that we participated in for the centenary of his birth
Feel free to ask and, if you're not a member of Mudcat, I know an
e-mail to Joe Offer will get you our contact number
Jim


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,Cj
Date: 09 Feb 19 - 04:09 PM

Jim, is there somewhere on line one can explore your recordings?


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Feb 19 - 06:30 AM

"Perhaps I was hoping for a revelation."
There are several of those if you look for them - the folk only repeated their songs rather than having made them and folk song is no different than history's pop songs made for money
Not claims I'm ready to swallow without proof - that latter was actually put into those words by one of Roud's folloers
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,JHW
Date: 08 Feb 19 - 06:08 AM

'I think basically he presents evidence and allows you to come to your own conclusions.'
Yes I reckon that's what he does. Perhaps I was hoping for a revelation.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Feb 19 - 09:21 AM

"t discouraged singers from singing for example Guthrie's songs."
Why should a club specializing in indigenous music be a problem Dick
If you wanted ot hear Guthrie songs there was nothing wrong with finding a club that catered for them - god knows, there were, and still are plenty of them
Your statement is like suggesting jazz clubs discourage other forms of music because they only cater for jazz enthusiasts - or any other type of establishment which spacialises in a specific type of music
Sorry Dick - this is a subject drift which I have learned not to follow
It finishes here as far as I'm concerned
Jim


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Feb 19 - 09:05 AM

yes, it promoted our own indigenous music, that was a positive but the negative was that it discouraged singers from singing for example Guthries songs.
I also knew a couple who were discouraged from singing Bessie Smith because it was not their indigenous music.
you can say what you like, but i was around and my experience of events is different from yours, Jim.
that does not mean that I do not value Ewan and Berts contributions to the uk folk revival


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Feb 19 - 07:02 AM

"Jim has tried to give the impression that MacColls influence went no further than the singers club "
I have done no such thing Dick, on the contrary
Ewan's influence gave rise to workshops throughout Britain, including the one I ran in Manchester back in the mid- sixties
I have spent years trying to publicise the fact that Ewan's and the Critics groups' work on analysing songs in order to understand and sing them is probably the most all-encompassing and detailed ever carried out on folksong and could change that facce of the revival is it could get beyiong the imbecility of 'war records' and 'name changing' (the latter often coming from debutees of a rock star once protest singer who swiped his name from a Welsh poet)

The practice (not rule) of Singers Club (only) residents, including Bert, to sing songs from your national backgrounds in your own accents was designed to promote our own indigenous music - and it worked a treat
Anybody can sing it whatever accent they choose if that's what turned them on, but they would been discouraged from doing so at the Singers Club - I'm glad to say
Jim


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Feb 19 - 05:32 AM

Mike, what you say is true,however there were others who ran folk clubs week in and week out some for over 50 years,whose importance wshould be acknowledged.
The direction of the uk folk revival was propelled by MacColl and Lloyd[ [at last this is being acknowleged,in the past Jim has tried to give the impression that MacColls influence went no further than the singers club    well considering they were both communists , i find it interesting, that the revival was to SOME EXTENT propelled towards traditional music,and to some extent away from political social comment, of course Ewan contiued to sing social comment songs as well as tradtional material
PARADOXICALLY a rule was encouraged at the singers club which in effect meant that unless you were american you could not sing Woody Guthrie songs.
There are two possible conclusions here the first one was that at some point Ewan and Berts influence lessened and the uk folk revival was steered in a more esoteric direction BY OTHERS., and more latterly in a commercial direction with much of the hype that is reminscent of the pop world


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,Mike Yates
Date: 07 Feb 19 - 05:12 AM

I haven't really been keeping up with this thread, but I do agree with Jim when he writes 'In my opinion, despite Bert's flaws and idiosyncrasies his 'Folk Song in England has a far greater understanding of the uniqueness of the genre than does the latest condenser for the title .' I am saddened to see that Bert Lloyd's reputation is slowly being pulled apart by people who often did not actually know him and who were not around when Bert was writing his book. I spent quite a lot of time with him and came to admire him greatly. His knowledge, especially of Eastern European music/song traditions was quite outstanding. Without him, and MacColl, the revival would not have been able to take off in the manner that it did. I just wish that some people would remember that.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Feb 19 - 04:28 AM

Incidentally
Steve Gardham cites "Song Cellars and Glees" as a possible contender for the title of of folk song maker
Laurence Senelick's extensive lists of the songs sung in the easrly Victorian Taverns tends to rule them out
See
'Tavern Singing in Early Victorian London' (the diaries of Charles Rice for 1840 aande 1850 (Society for Theatre Research 1997), tend to rule them out, in my opinion
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Feb 19 - 03:32 AM

"I get the impression that most of these contributions to the folk canon started off in London as one might expect, the song cellars, glee clubs, Music Halls, pleasure gardens...."
Nobody can say with any certainty who made our folk songs - nobody knows who did and probably never will so we can only rely on what little we do know and common sense to even approach the question   
The suggestion that our folk songs, dealing with the real lives of real people, as they do, originated from the pens of city dwelling entertainers whose lives were as far from those depicted in the songs flies in the face of over a century's scholarship and research and in the face of logic.
The published collections of unsingable songs by bad poets - (HACKS) - who churned out their wares at a rate of knots indiucate that they are the least likely to have made them - they had neither the experience to handle the subject matter nor the creative ability to pen the deathless pieces of social history that make up our folk song repertoire - Ashton, Hindley, Bagford Holloway and Black, Euing.... all fairly convincing proof, as far as I'm concerned, that they could not have made our folk songs.

The 19th century popular songmakers, represented by the mammoth 'Universal Songster' and the pastiche outpourings of Dibden, stand out as examples of poor and often extremely patonising (sometimes denigrating) representations of working peoples' lives, next to the insightful and sympathetic realities of the poaching and transportation songs, or the broken-token pieces describing the popular practice of exchanging 'gimmel rings', or the songs depicting the 'camp-following' women who accompanied men into battle.

Over a century of scholarship unswervingly attributed the making of these songs to the people whose lives and experiences they described
Child named them "popular" (belonging to the people) while at the same time writing off the commercial products that occasionally included the occasional folksong as "veritable dunghills"
Motherwell sharply warned against tampering with the people creations by "improving" and rewriting them   
Sharp went to great lengths to analyse their structure.
Up to comparatively recently, there has been no doubt as to who made our folk songs...
Topic Records, which dedicated its existence to making available folk songs, chose as the title of its monumental and ongoing set'The Voice of the People', just as Lloyd, four decades earlier, entitle his 13 programme presentation for schools, 'The Songs of the People'
How could so many clever and experienced people have got it so wrong for so wrong?   

Pat Mackenzie and I dedicated thirty years of our lives to finding out what the remaining bearers of our 'folk songs' considered the songs they sang and how they compared them to 'The Other Songs" (Mike Yates's phrase) they also sang - apparently they got it wrong too.
Walter Pardon went to great lengths to describe the difference between his "old folk songs" and "them other old things" - his opinions were swept aside by giving everything hie sang Roud numbers

I looked forward to Steve Roud's book with some anticipation, hoping it might correct some of the previous flaws in our understanding - in removing the uniqueness of our folk songs by lumping hem in with the long rejected popular songs, the parlour ballads and the rest, Steve Roud's book has blurred the lines between many genres of song
Despite the fact that Roud's work is larger and far more widespread in its approach and gos into far greater detail, in my opinion it measures small next to Lloyd's book of the same name written all those years ago.
In my opinion, despite Bert's flaws and idiosyncrasies his 'Folk Song in England has a far greater understanding of the uniqueness of the genre than does the latest condenser for the title .

What we learned by our field work, especially among the non-literate Travellers and the Irish singers who were still singing their songs socially up to the middle of the twentieth century was that the communities they came from produced instinctive songmakers who constantly reflected their experiences and emotions in verse whenever the occasion arose
A discussion going on at present on this forum concerning the Peterloo massacre clearly indicates that English workers were probably as prolific in songmaking.
We owe the survival of many of our greatest ballads to a cultural group who have yet to accept literacy as part of their lives      
      
Over the last decade or so there have been many claims that we no longer know what folk song is - little wonder, considering what has happened to the clubs.
Now, it seems, that confusion has spread to the world of research.
For me, and many like me, what "folk" means has never been in dispute
Folk song is as researched and analysed as any other cultural form - there may have been disputes following the singer-songwriter phase inspired by the protest song-maker that once was, Bob Dylan,   as to what wasn't a folk song, in my experience, there has been little doubt as to what a folk song was
For me, the answer lies in the two terms "tradition and folk", often treated as separate entities but in fact two sides of the same coin
the "Folk" were the people who almost certainly made and remade the songs to suit their lives and record their personal experiences, "tradition" is the process they used to do so - I don't believe it ever gets more complicated than that.

Perhaps we might discuss this without the aggressiveness (on all sides), as people with a mutual love and objective rather than opponents this time?
That is my intention anyway
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 05 Feb 19 - 04:44 PM

Which conclusions would you have envisaged? I think basically he presents evidence and allows you to come to your own conclusions. Perhaps he was put off actually documenting conclusions after some of his predecessors were being far too 'conclusive' whilst presenting very little evidence.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,JHW
Date: 05 Feb 19 - 03:06 PM

I've finished reading it. I may remember a few more names. I may remember a few more scenarios.
I was rather assuming he would come to 'some conclusions'.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,Hootenannny
Date: 27 Sep 18 - 11:57 AM

Seeing this thread re-awaken today I expected it to be in reference to Ian Hislop's BBC 4 TV programme last night regarding the "idealised vision of the countryside celebrated by writers, painters and musicians"
There was discussion with and a tune or two by Vic Gammon and some film of C Sharp himself the expert on country dance poncing(sorry)prancing around and not getting it quite right. There was also some interesting information on Morris Dancing and WW1 which I was completely unaware of.

The programme will probably be available on I-Player.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,Jon Dudley
Date: 27 Sep 18 - 09:26 AM

Vic's correction re. Bob and Ron Copper, has a good tale attached...
The two were booked incorrectly to appear as the Copper brothers, unfortunately Ron was indisposed and son John stood in for him which led Dominic Behan, the compere to introduce them thus -
"And now we have the Copper brothers...and if you're thinking that one Copper brother is a lot older than the other Copper brother, that's because the older Copper brother is the younger Copper brother's father..." Priceless!


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Sep 18 - 05:38 AM

I hesitate to chip in again when this thread had finally gone quiet for a whole two weeks, but I think it's worth mentioning one aspect of the upcoming Lewes workshop with Bob Lewis: "we'll discuss ... where the songs come from ...".


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 11 Sep 18 - 04:01 PM

>>>>Some songs either are or were intended as duets as with some dialogues where the obvious singers are a male and a female.<<<<

In researching my next book just came across another good example in Kidson's 'Traditional Tunes' in reference to 'Colin and Phoebe' which occurs in several collections from oral tradition. Kidson was of course a collector AND a music historian, unlike many of the other collectors of the time. p73. (writing in 1891 by the way)


'With the few remaining old-fashioned singers in country places, songs of the type of 'Colin & Phoebe' are still favourites. They are a survival of the school of fashionable music and song when Mr. Lampe and Dr. Arne composed, and when Mr. Beard and other singers delighted Vauxhall audiences with these composed productions. 'C&P' used to be sung in Yorkshire, and on the Lancashire and Cheshire borders, in the correct old-fashioned style. It being 'A Dialogue' a male and female singer took their respective parts, one as Colin and the other as Phoebe, and put as much archness and tenderness into their performance as the part warranted.'

He then gives 2 oral versions and the original from 1755.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Vic Smith
Date: 10 Sep 18 - 10:21 AM

PEDANTS' CORNER
Dick wrote:-
i uderstood that bob and ron copper and ther father an uncle....
Actually Bob & Ron were cousins, not brothers. Jim was Bob's dad and John was Ron's dad. This is a very easy mistake to make as you will find a number of places where Bob & Ron are referred to as "The Copper Brothers" - including the sleeve notes of a Tony Rose album.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 05 Sep 18 - 05:13 PM

I get the impression that most of these contributions to the folk canon started off in London as one might expect, the song cellars, glee clubs, Music Halls, pleasure gardens. Of course it wouldn't take long for them to be imitated in other large urban centres. Also London was the centre for printing with many more printers per sq mile than anywhere else in Britain and it follows that that's where most of the ballad writers were.

One genre that definitely started elsewhere was the minstrel troupe genre which came from America but soon hopped over to London c1840.

Yes, I believe the glee clubs were originally a middle-class thing, as you needed to be able to sight read. Books of glees, catches and rounds were very popular. Many of the glees were published singly in sheet music form, e.g., 'Dame Durden'. The earliest version of 'The Derby Ram' I have seen is on a glee sheet. I couldn't state that's where it originated, but it's possible.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,jag
Date: 05 Sep 18 - 09:30 AM

"... they were eventually found in the villages and town taverns..."


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,jag
Date: 05 Sep 18 - 09:28 AM

Roud, when discussing glees comments that they "were on their way down the social scale , and the were eventually found in the villages and town acverns and even on the streets of London" and quotes Alfred Williams' Folk Songs of the Upper Thames:

Glees were usually sung my those having slightly superior taste in music; that is, by those of above average intelligence among the villagers, or by such as had been trained at some time or other to play and instrument, it may have been a fiddle or cornet in the local bands, or in the choir on Sundays in church.

(If one of the collectors born into the middle classes had said that would they have been criticised for being condescending?)


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 05 Sep 18 - 08:22 AM

http://www.alfredwilliams.org.uk/folkhero.html

He was educated at Ruskin (albeit it seems at a distance). Fascinating.
Thanks for the idea, Sandman.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 05 Sep 18 - 08:15 AM

So, a folk song in Scotland would perhaps include sections on the history of collectors in Scotland, and a century-by-century account drawing on contemporary accounts of practices, and, perhaps, some discussion of the 'Scottish snap' controversy?

There's a web site about Alfred Williams, which mentions Bellowhead, and the first song I found on it, Betsy Baker, seems to have come from a broadside. But this isn't 'in depth' research!


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Sep 18 - 07:55 AM

it may help to understand social historyin relation to fok song is to investigate in depth the collector alfred williams.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Jack Campin
Date: 05 Sep 18 - 06:40 AM

Worldwide, harmony singing and solo ballad singing often seem to be exclusive. Among the Kartvelians and the Svan of Georgia, and the Tosk of southern Albania, you get three-part harmony singing but no solo ballads. Among the English, the Laz of southwest Georgia and the Gegs of northern Albania, you get long epic solo ballads but no harmonized folksongs. There are other examples. I'm not suggesting a grand theory but there does seem to be a correlation. And it doesn't seem to be a regional or ethnic one, as the proximity of these divergent cultures suggests. (Instruments may affect it; the Laz and the Gegs both use droney fiddle accompaniment so maybe they don't need voices doing the job).

Did the Welsh ever have a solo narrative ballad tradition, or are they another of the harmonized-only cultures?


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Brian Peters
Date: 05 Sep 18 - 06:17 AM

The idea that singers might have been members of church choirs is certainly true of Joseph Taylor, and it might have helped to contribute to the quality of his voice. Could he harmonize spontaneously? I don't think we know.

The 'communal harmony singing' question has come up on Mudcat before; I did a bit of listening to the recordings I had here of singing pubs, and wasn't able to make out much harmony. OTH, my 'Wild Rover' researches turned up a version from the songbook of Thomas Hardy's father, which was scored for two parts.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 04 Sep 18 - 05:39 PM

Perhaps so, jag, but going back as far as we can the folk have always borrowed from popular music (just as popular music occasionally borrows from folk), and we also have to remember that musical genres overlap so it's best to picture this in the form of Venn diagrams rather than something with hard and fast boundaries. There are those who want to say 'this song is a folksong because of blah blah' and 'this song isn't a folksong because of blah blah' but it's not as simple as that with every song in the canon. Some songs fulfil all of the criteria and some only fulfil some of them.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,jag
Date: 04 Sep 18 - 04:56 PM

Steve. On that basis the singing described in Roud's quotes from Fred Kitchen (b. 1891) and William Woodruff (b. 1916) in chapter 11 (Folk Song in the First Half of the Twentieth Century) does seem to be more akin to 'popular music' than 'folk song' and not much different to singing 'Caledonia' on the back of a late night bus.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 04 Sep 18 - 01:05 PM

Thanks for coming back in, jag. The evidence in the book and other evidence we have would seem to suggest that communal singing of full songs was rare in oral tradition. Regardless of what category you would put coach parties and the practice of community singing in, this is not normally regarded as part of our folk song tradition, though it could be argued that it is. The over-riding feature of this type of singing is it relies on singing medleys of choruses. It certainly was/is a practice of the 'folk' but it has its own features. The vast majority of what has been recorded as folksong in this country is narrative, the ballad, and generally, but with a few exceptions as we have seen, this is one singer, one song. Even the iterative catalogue songs more often than not need a lead singer with others coming in on the bits of refrain and repeats.


The short answer to your question is that communal singing would seem to be much more a feature of the revival than anything earlier in oral tradition.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,jag
Date: 04 Sep 18 - 11:36 AM

Thanks for your comments Brian and Steve regarding the communal singing.

I was meaning 'no-one' saying much about communal singing (to that point) in this thread about a book covering 'what the folk sang'.

I am unclear about the extent to which the informal communal singing I have experienced while the second revival has been going on is a creation of the revivals (BBC singing for schools, Clancy Brothers records etc) and how much just a continuation of what had gone on before. If it had been going on before did it qualify as part of 'English Folk Song'?

The same might apply to harmony singing as it came to be heard in performance. As 'The Sandman' has pointed out some people sang in church choirs. When church attendance was almost universal in rural areas how often was the local 'song carrier' also a chorister and how many of the congregation could accomodate a hymn in the wrong key for them by singing an octave, or a fifth, or somehting that harmonised, for awkward notes.

I bought Roud's book because I was interested in the social history of song and I wasn't dissapointed.

I understand that collectors might be seeking out the remnants of a dying 'folk art' but the line between art and craft (including the craft of the broadside and stage-show writers) can be a fine one and very much in the eye of the observer.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Jack Campin
Date: 04 Sep 18 - 11:33 AM

Chris Wright and Steve Byrne have the expertise but they probably don't have the time.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 04 Sep 18 - 10:58 AM

I presume you mean 'Folk Song in Scotland'. An interesting thought. Certain sub-genres and periods are well covered but an overall insight would be very welcome. The Roud Indexes of course cover most of the English-speaking world where these songs are found. Is there anyone left still in Scotland who has that sort of knowledge and commitment? Hamish Henderson springs to mind but he's no longer with us.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 04 Sep 18 - 05:59 AM

It's a pity there isn't a Scottish equivalent of Roud, I was thinking the other day.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Sep 18 - 02:05 AM

i uderstood that bob and ron copper and ther father an uncle all sang in the church choir, so tir neighbours were possibly used to harmonies in church services


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Lighter
Date: 03 Sep 18 - 08:49 PM

This adds nothing of substance, but I feel the need to mention that when I heard the Watersons' debut album, "Frost and Fire," here in the States in 1967, I thought the a cappella harmonies nothing less than electrifying.

I'm guessing that the Coppers' neighbors reacted similarly, when they first heard the Coppers' harmonies.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 03 Sep 18 - 08:23 PM

I wonder whether the 'family' set up has something to do with it. When we were kids we would sing with mam, whether it was nursery rhymes, or songs she knew from 'community song' books, or the radio, etc, 'folk songs' learned in schools thanks to Sharp. Maybe if people sang in families and with kids then group singing was more common, but those from whom collectors collected songs were often past child-rearing stages of life (with a few exceptions of families being found).


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Brian Peters
Date: 03 Sep 18 - 02:56 PM

Indeed, Steve.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 03 Sep 18 - 02:29 PM

>>>>>wassail songs, work songs, local carols, drinking songs<<<<<

Apart from local carols which are well-documented, which of the other 3 have examples of being sung in any other way other than by a lead singer singing the verses? Other than the examples already given here I might add. Even chanteys were always as far as we know a solo lead singer. Where we have recordings of strong traditional pub sings (East Anglia in particular) the rule was 'one singer, one song' with the others joining in the chorus. Bob Roberts was sometimes present at these as a young man, with his melodeon, but he only used it to accompany step-dancing and his own songs.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Brian Peters
Date: 03 Sep 18 - 02:08 PM

"Almost all the songs mentioned here were sung (and revived) by solo singers. No-one seems inclined to discuss wassail songs, work songs, local carols, drinking songs etc."

I'm not sure whether your 'no-one' refers to this thread or to the collectors, Guest jag, but Cecil Sharp for one collected dozens of carols, wassails, shanties and a good few songs about ale, and also lectured on the first two. Lloyd talked a lot about them as well, and I think most people regard them as an essential part of the 'folk' canon. Baring-Gould collected a lot more in pubs than the others, and heard more communal singing, also a few specific instances of two-part harmony.

None of that changes my view that English traditional singing is primarily unaccompanied, but pub singing does need to be taken into account - for example, Cyril Poacher appears to have added a refrain to 'The Broomfield Wager' only when he sang it in the pub.

"From the descriptions of and by many collectors there seems to have been a collection bias towards these features [modal and gapped scales] and a tendency of source singers to offer them."

I'd say more a publication bias than a collection bias, though of course we'll never know for certain.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 03 Sep 18 - 01:16 PM

Thanks, Vic
It's useful to know of these other examples. Of course there may have been other examples in other parts of Britain that weren't so heavily visited by collectors. I remember George mentioning this family at a TSF meeting but we didn't get to hear much about them after that which is a pity. To be honest it would be really odd if the Copper Family were the only ones to do this.

In comparing the source singer traditions with those of the Revival (and perhaps even the First Revival) harmony singing in the latter is much more prevalent (thankfully). What would make an excellent study is the history of influences on the harmony singing that has blossomed in the current revival since the 50s. It would probably include glee singing, carols, American influence (Carters), popular music, hymns, choirs etc....Watersons, Young Tradition, Cropper Lads and others from the 60s.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Sep 18 - 06:22 AM

This is Vic Smith speaking cookie-less and briefly from Corsica -
The excellent Copper Family are probably unique in Britain.
Not quite, Steve. I know of three other examples of their glee harmony folk singing in Sussex. Isabel Sutherland told me of some that she had heard in the Rotherfield area. They were a family of pig farmers. The Lewes singer George Townsend reported singing in this sort of harmony with his father and others when his father kept the 'Jolly Sportsman' four miles outside Lewes at Eaat Chiltington in the late c19. Luther Hills collected by Bob Copper in the 1950s was blacksmith in East Dean and said that he sang in harmony with his father and others and fially there is the family (Millin or something similar?) that George Fraanpton recorded in Kent


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Will Fly
Date: 02 Sep 18 - 10:36 AM

"A Song For Every Season" by Bob Copper is, to my mind, essential reading for anyone who wants to get some idea of how traditional songs could be embedded and sung within a community.

Bob describes various seasons of the year and the songs that were sung at the time, with references to lambing, shearing, harvesting, and descriptions of the people within the village and within the Copper family who sung them. Songs are included in the book. It's a wonderful book and one I read and re-read. Like many in my area of Sussex, I knew Bob and occasionally attended the Copper's evenings in the Central Club in Peacehaven on the Sussex coast. His son (and some family members who came along) were recent guests at the Brighton Acoustic Session.

Another book of his, describing his song collecting in Sussex and Hampshire, is "Songs and Southern Breezes" - also a good read. Both books contain Bob's excellent b&w line drawings. Bob was also a devotee of jazz and blues, and he once told me that his Dad's favourite song was "Brother Can You Spare A Dime"!


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 02 Sep 18 - 09:39 AM

Hi Tzu
The excellent Copper Family are probably unique in Britain. Their style seems to have evolved in some way from the glee clubs of the early nineteenth century although I strongly suspect developed further by the family. I say this because some of their songs are indeed from this glee club repertoire but most are certainly not. There are plenty of families who have been recorded right up to the present day, but all the ones I have heard of have been solo singers with the occasional solo singer being accompanied on instrument by another member, but even this is rare. Hundreds of singers have been recorded either in writing or by sound recording since the 1880s and to the best of my knowledge there are no others.

However, arguably there have been performing families of musicians in Ireland who have sung together, such as the McPeakes. Whether they sang together in this way before they became performers I couldn't say.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 30 Aug 18 - 06:33 PM

Most of the songs we discuss are indeed ballads which in Britain usually means a solo singer with perhaps the opportunity to join in with a chorus if there is one, but there are specialist areas where group singing is the norm. Carol singing is perhaps the most obvious of these and sometimes similar ritual pieces. Some songs either are or were intended as duets as with some dialogues where the obvious singers are a male and a female. In communities which were still alive and singing in living memory (e.g., hunt suppers) solos, duets and group singing were common enough. A good example, listen to Will Noble and John Cocking of the Holme Valley Beagles singing Gossip Joan as a duet, very effective and entertaining. Obvious duets are pieces such as 'madam I am come a courting' and 'The Keys of Heaven'. Many of these country pieces were staple repertoire of village productions where the singers dressed up for the performances.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 30 Aug 18 - 06:21 PM

Hello and thank you Steve.

Oop North is where I am. I'll look for your paper online.

Extremely unlikely to be in London on 10th November, but hope it goes well.

Jag

Interesting point about the focus on sole singers: in Roud it says most 'trad' singing seems to have been like this, though it also discusses glees and rounds, and the Copper family are mentioned, with question about how typical they may have been. I found some of their work on youtube.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 30 Aug 18 - 06:05 PM

>>>>>>Is there a term for the subset of 'what the folk sang' (and of what falls within the 1954 definition and what as revived in the post 1950 folk clubs) that has been the centre of discussion in this thread?<<<<<<

jag,

You have identified in this question one of the much-discussed bones of contention. Terminology for our genre is rife with difficulties. Part of the problem is that some people don't want to accept that most words in the English language have multiple meanings/definitions and 'folk song' is no exception. In fact like the language itself the meaning of 'folk song' is continuing to evolve. All 3 of your subgenres can and do use the words 'folk song' to describe them. Most of us are happy to use the words to describe all 3 and use extra adjectives to narrow things down, such as 'contemporary song' 'traditional song'. This has been discussed and argued on many threads and again will continue to be so.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 30 Aug 18 - 05:52 PM

I thought I had Lee's book but on searching apparently not so I'd better not comment. The relationship between the two genres is quite complex and songs and influences move both ways. Like most genres Music Hall was influenced by a wide spectrum of other mostly smaller genres such as glee singing, London tavern singing, the coal cellars, burlesque in the theatre, American Minstrels and much more. Burlesquing folk songs and ballads predates the Music Hall but continued into the Music Hall era. Many Music Hall songs imitated folk songs and some were eventually taken up in oral tradition, classic example, Jim the Carter Lad by Harry Linn. Another example, a tavern song 'Little Pigs' was widely printed on broadsides and eventually oral versions were used in the Music Hall culminating in the 1920s recordings on 78s as 'The Old Sow'. 2 of the most prolific writers of the Music Hall era, Harry Clifton and Joe Geoghegan, had many of their songs continue in oral tradition. I don't know where you're based but I'm giving a presentation on the relationship between the 2 genres at Cecil Sharp House in London on the 10th November. There is also an earlier paper I wrote, with examples, on the TSF website.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,jag
Date: 30 Aug 18 - 03:17 PM

Maybe drifting off topic (or back to dialect poets...), but what is the relationship to Auld Daddy Darkness in the last line of which Wee Davie makes his appearance. Is one referring to the other or are they both older Scottish 'characters'?


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 30 Aug 18 - 01:58 PM

Aha, Jack, this "Wee Davie Daylicht" seems to have a Roud number, and if it is the same song, it was printed as early as 1890 and credited to Robert Tennant.

Roud Broadside Index (B116744)

Tzu


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Jack Campin
Date: 30 Aug 18 - 10:50 AM

An example of the sort of thing "jag" was talking about: Hamish Henderson collected a lullaby "Wee Davie Daylicht" in southwest Scotland and published it in "Tocher" with no information about its origins beyond the singer he got it from. In fact it was written in the 1920s (or maybe a bit earlier) and published in a book of songs of the "national" or "community" song genre.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,jag
Date: 30 Aug 18 - 10:18 AM

Since it is back I will ask what I was going to ask just as it paused.

Is there a term for the subset of 'what the folk sang' (and of what falls within the 1954 definition and what as revived in the post 1950 folk clubs) that has been the centre of discussion in this thread?

Almost all the songs mentioned here were sung (and revived) by solo singers. No-one seems inclined to discuss wassail songs, work songs, local carols, drinking songs etc.

They tend not to have the catchy tunes and easy-to-join-in-with rhythms of the music hall, pleasure garden or stage tunes that are known to be such. As discussed above scanning the words into the tune can be tricky.

There melodies often feature modes other than the major and minor of 'art music' and often use gapped scales.

From the descriptions of and by many collectors there seems to have been a collection bias towards these features and a tendency of source singers to offer them.

If, in a parallel with Lloyd's eastern European truck driver, a carter had heard the lads of the town singing something from the pleasure garden then gone home and wrote a little song to a similar tune would we identify it as a 'folk song'? Or would it be regarded as just another example of popular song?

Is there a name for this 'sub-genre'. It is almost as if the collectors and revivalists had selected for 'unpopular song'.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 30 Aug 18 - 09:07 AM

Steve, while on the topic of books, do you know 'Folk Song and Music Hall' by Edward Lee? Is it worth reading, if so? (NB it can be got relatively cheap 2nd hand, but if it isn't any good why waste money?)

Hoping you'll have time to reply. Thanks

Tzu


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,Jack Campin
Date: 27 Aug 18 - 10:18 AM

I found myself thinking that the strong sense of rhythm in USA folk versions of British originals must have come from African influences

I doubt the US and UK evolved all that differently. Military culture has always been a huge presence in the US (and still is, to an extent unimaginable here - who has ever heard of a kid being sent to a "military academy" in the UK?). The early jazz musicians were military trained and used military instruments, and fife bands survived into the middle of the 20th century when Bayard researched them in western Pennsylvania - their idiom was not that different from the Irish or Scottish sectarian flute band style. African-American musicians can't have been immune to influence from military music of European origin.

Quite possibly Irish music was more similar in this respect than is generally recognized. My great-grandfather was a peasant from Mayo who joined the British Army at 14 and learned to play the flute in Afghanistan; there wasn't anything extraordinary about this. The British Army was where almost all flutes used in Irish music came from. Military rhythms must have influenced Irish dance music rhythms.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,Jack Campin
Date: 27 Aug 18 - 10:04 AM

some of Sharp's 'tradition bearers' apparently could not recognise their songs when he had 'harmonised' them ie, put simply, had fitted chords for piano to the tunes.

I am no sort of tradition bearer but I often can't get any idea of the tune from the MIDI harmonizations on the contemplator.com site. The melody note could be any pitch in that overcomplicated texture of homogeneous organ sound.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Brian Peters
Date: 27 Aug 18 - 09:45 AM

"That's what our friend in the White House does."

Obviously he's my main role model these days, Vic.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Vic Smith
Date: 27 Aug 18 - 05:56 AM

Brian, you really need to call a press conference and explain how you MISSPOKE! That's what our friend in the White House does.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Brian Peters
Date: 27 Aug 18 - 05:48 AM

Aargh, should have said UNwise in line 1 above!


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Brian Peters
Date: 27 Aug 18 - 05:28 AM

Phil: Yes, I agree that an unaccompanied singer would be wise to try and reproduce someone's performance that was originally dependent on a guitar accompaniment. But then I'd always prefer to back to an original source (Walter Pardon recording, book, VWML online archive etc) anyway.

"But are we agreed that 'as written' the thing needs work?"

In the case of the St George ballad, and also the Peterloo material I'm working on right now, I'd say a definite 'yes'.

"And has my idea that in *some* cases singers may not have made the tweaks successfully sunk without trace?"

I fear it has, since I can't find it. But, yes, I'm sure it's possible to find recordings of singers who are having some difficulty bedding the words into a tune. Though this may be partly a matter of memory: as I've said before, some 'source singers' visited by collectors may not have actively sung a song for many years. And many of them were not 'performers' in the sense we understand it now, so achieving a polished rendition may not have been a priority.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 26 Aug 18 - 05:23 PM

Evening Brian

First, your post set me interested in knowing more about how ballads/broadsheets changed: I've read a few but not thought much about historical order/changes apart from what is in Roud/Bishop's book.

I get what you mean about changing things; I actually do this from time to time and one thing I/we did it with accidentally got 'collected'. But enough said there. It wasn't folk, not really, probably....

Funnily enough, I can 'imagine' a 'singable' version of the St George if the audience could be relied on to pick up on the references. My instinct would be to make it an ironic take on jingoism.

But are we agreed that 'as written' the thing needs work?

It's strange: I did some theory of music as a kid and very young you were expected to write a tune to fit set lyrics (key and time signature supplied) ensuring that significant words fell on a stressed beat as opposed to something like 'and' (and I know in some contexts even 'and' can be significant.

And has my idea that in *some* cases singers may not have made the tweaks successfully sunk without trace?


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 26 Aug 18 - 05:10 PM

Brian and I seem to have 'cross posted'. So I had not read his thoughts on St George before my post.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 26 Aug 18 - 04:33 PM

Evening all.

Brian: My opinion on this rhythmic irregularity is that it wasn't a matter of consistent 'broken rhythm', but more a case of single phrases sung in consistent rhythm, but with extended gaps at the ends of the phrases.

I think that's a big part of it. I also think - just from my own experience singing songs unaccompanied - that it gets to be quite natural to add a beat, or (perhaps more frequently) drop a beat, if a particular line doesn't have the right number of syllables. If you're accompanied there's a lot more pressure to keep a steady rhythm, if necessary by compressing two syllables or stretching out one.

Being a latecomer to this whole thing, I learned The Holland Handkerchief from the Waterson:Carthy recording. Initially I sang it exactly as Norma did, but without guitar accompaniment to hold the shape it sounded forced and artificial. It only came alive for me when I let the words drive the tune, dropping or adding beats where necessary. (The tune's still there, it just doesn't sound exactly the same each time round.) A friend asked if I'd got it from Packie Byrne, which I took as a compliment!

The other pitfall for unaccompanied singers - and one which may account for the impression that folk songs aren't foot-tappers - is the equal and opposite danger of learning a song note for note, and stress for stress, from somebody who's already buggered about with it (technical term). Peter Bellamy, God rest him, is a terrible source for song tunes - wonderful to listen to, but you try singing them and very often what you learn won't actually be the original tune at all. Several times now I've got a song off pat from a Bellamy version, only to realise some time later that there's a simpler - and more metrically regular - tune lurking in there somewhere.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 26 Aug 18 - 11:50 AM

Hello Steve

Re ballads and rhythm.

I really did select one more or less at random but forget how. It is a Bodleian one starting Why should We boast of Arthur and his Knights, called St George and the Dragon, and the version was printed in Coventry. It would be just my luck to come up with an atypical example, but you could check it out as it comes up if you go to the site and search for St George. Happy to be corrected if wrong on this.


I accept your points, they make sense to me.

In Roud, Bishop comments that it is interesting how 'ballads' printed without named tunes do turn up sung to different tunes, but that surprisingly many have rather similar tunes, or similar phrases within them.

A fascinating detail from Roud was that some of Sharp's 'tradition bearers' apparently could not recognise their songs when he had 'harmonised' them ie, put simply, had fitted chords for piano to the tunes.

I'm not sure that having motivation and time are two important factors, and also, importantly, the question of whether this is a practice one has contact with.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Brian Peters
Date: 26 Aug 18 - 11:38 AM

Pseudonymous:
"...suppose you have in front of you a ballad sheet with no tune on it. It might not be written in a regular metre... You try to fit it to a tune you know, and end up with something lacking rhythm, or where the emphasis of the tune falls on words that aren't naturally stressed in spoken English. You also end up having to change the tune when there are more words than your original tune has notes for."

Firstly, the ballad you mentioned (Roud V2800) is a blackletter broadside from the mid-17th century, although it does seem to have been printed up until at least 1800 in unaltered from (interesting to see some illustrative woodcuts that actually reflect the content of the ballad, by the way!). Steve Gardham knows far more about this than me, but my experience is that texts from this early period were invariably long and wordy, and actually quite hard to sing - the evidence that anyone actually sang them in that form is scanty. The broadside texts that correspond most closely with collected folksongs (Henry Martin, or Sweet Primroses, to use two examples already discussed) were much later - probably the first half of the 19th century - and far shorter and less verbose.

The second thing to say is that traditional singers were pretty good at fitting lyrics to tunes, amending texts if necessary. My old friend Gordon Tyrrall wrote a dissertation many years ago which compared the texts of songs in the Copper Family's repertoire with the corresponding broadsides, and found that the songs as sung by the Coppers had had a lot of awkward edges knocked off to make them more singable. The other thing that can be done is to lengthen certain words if the text is too short to fit the melody line, or insert extra syllables into words if there are too many notes in the melody. Joseph Taylor did the latter: "Poacher bold as I uddenfold", and so on. But, if push came to shove, and the text had too many words to fit into the tune, singers would sometimes simply lengthen the line as much as necessaryto accommodate all the words. There's no problem doing that if you don't have a rhythmic accompaniment.

I've set more than a few broadsides (including some 'unsingable' ones!) to existing or new tunes in the past. For what it's worth, if I was forced to perform your St George ballad, I could make it fit a tune I wrote very recently in 4:4 for a 19th century Chartist song, by lingering on certain words, or inserting an extra one where there are too few to fit the line, or by squeezing in a word before the first beat.

The opening lines:
"Why should we boast of Arthur and his knights
Knowing how many men have performed fights"

...are particularly clunky, but you might get around the problem of the stresses in line 2 by squeezing in the 'knowing' ahead of the beat - so the first-beat stress falls on how, then singing per-form-ed as three syllables to fill the gap. If it were me I'd be more radical and edit it to something like "When so many other heroes / have fought for what is right..." [stresses underlined]. There's always a way.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 26 Aug 18 - 10:37 AM

Howard,
I really liked the way you expressed your thoughts on the 23rd 0340. Thankyou for that.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 26 Aug 18 - 10:35 AM

Harry 23rd 8.44. Apologies if I was dismissive. No-one has said that ordinary (non song writers) were not capable of writing songs. It's very likely that almost anyone is. It's having the motivation and the time that are the first obstacles. Then in order to become a folk song the song has to pass through oral tradition and that can be a big stumbling block for the song. Your songs if sung by others in the mess or concert room, by my definition, will have become folksongs for a short period of time, but if they didn't get beyond that mess or fo'c'sle into other fo'c'sles they would not have survived long enough.

Cyril Tawney's RN songs have survived largely because he was a professional performer and that they were put into print and spread in this way nationally. They are folksongs in the wider sense of the word as they are a massive part of the Folk Scene, but I doubt if they are still sung in mess rooms other than by Revivalists.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 26 Aug 18 - 10:25 AM

Some great discussion here now, too much to respond to in one go. And most of it well-informed anyway.

Tzu, if you turned up a broadside ballad without a strong rhythm then you were extremely unlucky. The vast majority at least have a reasonable rhythm and form, and those that don't soon acquire it if the song content is usable. I am guessing here and basing this on my own songwriting but a useful ploy in writing this material is to have a tune in mind while you're writing, regardless of whether that tune is eventually used.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 26 Aug 18 - 07:45 AM

Nice story, Vic

I'm looking back at Chapter 20 of Roud. It starts with a quotation from Sharp to the effect that singers might not comment on tunes, but this does not mean that they were not aware of them or did not appreciate them, albeit that this might be at a subconscious level.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Vic Smith
Date: 26 Aug 18 - 07:30 AM

Pseudonymous asked:-
On 'melody', I am wondering whether you can have a song - as opposed to a recitation, say, without it?
September 1970.
2 Yeaman Street, Rattray, Blairgowrie
The home of Belle & Alex Stewart, the parents in the famed family, The Stewarts of Blair.
It was a house ceilidh with virtually everyone there high status Scots traveller performers. Belle, Alex their daughters Sheila and Cathie, Davie Stewart, Big Willie McPhee, Shug & Bella Higgins and others who sang and played really well but were not so well known - well I didn't know who they were anyway. We were only invited because we has already organised a couple of tours for them in England and were in Blairgowrie for the festival which had finished the day before. Tina and I sat on the floor and kept very quiet; we didn't want to sem like intruders.
There was a very old lady sitting by the fire. Cathie seemed to be looking after her and later I heard that she had married into this woman's family.
Belle approached this woman and said, "Whit aboot you, ma dear? Ye've got some fine sang. Will ye no gie us ane o' thon?
"Ach, Belle. Ah'm that auld Ah canna sing ony mair.... bit Ah'll say yin... jist as a poetry."
She then recited in a slow stately voice a beautiful and dramatic rendition of a very full version of Lord Lovell - the sort of performanance that you would never forget. When we came back a few days later to see Belle and Alex, we found out that her name was Charlotte Higgins. Subsequently, we found that she had been recorded by Isabel Sutherland in 1954 in some of the first made for the School of Scottish Studies at the U. of Edinburgh. I learned some of Charlotte's songs from Isabel and her Lord Bateman and Susan Pirate, I think of as the finest version of that ballad and it is the one that I sing.
I often think of that night and the wonderful music we heard. Actually, I had my little cassette tape recorder with me but I had enough sense to realise that it would have been inappropriate to get it out.
I also remember how we were teased and tested by them. We had never met Micky McGregor, Sheila's husband before that and he came to sit with us on the floor and told us that he knew the sort of songs that we liked and were after and he sang "South of the border, down Mexico way.... " keeping a close eye on us for our reaction, but I never flinched. When he finished, I told him it was great, that Frank Sinatra was one of my mother's favourite singers and that she was always playing that record.
Micky said.l " Well, I canna' fool you" and then sung a stunning version of The False Knight on the Road which I remember as being similar to the one collected from Bella Higgins.
At another point in the evening, Big Willie came and sat by us and he had picked up Davie Stewart's melodeon. He prentended to try and play it and said to Tina, "Ah canna' get a note out of this thing." Somewhat embarrassed Tina pointed out that he was holding it upside down. "Och! It's the ither way up." He turned it round and tried pressing the buttons again. "It still doesna' work!" Tina pointed out the clasp that held the bellows closed. "Oh! There's a wee strappie at the top!" He undid that. "It srill...." Tina leaned over and undid the strap at the bottom. "Anither yin..."
He then drew out the bellows and played a stunning version of Lady Elspeth Campbell Halfway through playing, he turned to Tina with a huge smile on his face and said, "Ah can play it fine now!"


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 26 Aug 18 - 05:16 AM

Thanks for these interesting responses. I listened to a couple of Joseph Taylor and there does seem to be more of a sense of rhythm here. I note Brian's point about their being no single style.

Not being a singer, I would maybe use 'listenable' rather than 'singable', and Taylor's two pieces are quite listenable.

Pondering this, suppose you have in front of you a ballad sheet with no tune on it. It might not be written in a regular metre. I turned up one at random on the Bodleian, and in fact it isn't in a regular metre. Roud V9800 about St George and his Knights. It doesn't even have a regular number of stresses syllables per line, leave alone syllables. You try to fit it to a tune you know, and end up with something lacking rhythm, or where the emphasis of the tune falls on words that aren't naturally stressed in spoken English. You also end up having to change the tune when there are more words than your original tune has notes for.

This is without any ornamentation you decide to add to the tune, though it is of course possible to add ornamentation without losing the rhythm of the piece)

On 'melody', I am wondering whether you can have a song - as opposed to a recitation, say, without it?


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Aug 18 - 05:11 AM

Rather than 'rhythm', it is 'pulse' that seems to be the distinguishing feature of traditional song interpretation
Jim


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Aug 18 - 04:49 AM

Every single singer we ever asked described themselves (in so many words) as storytellers whose stories came with tunes - Walter was the most articulate in doing so
That, in my opinion, made him one of our most important traditional singers

Where the singing tradition is still living in Ireland, [particularly in the Gaeltachts, they talk about "telling" a song rather than "singing" it
Jim


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Brian Peters
Date: 25 Aug 18 - 06:22 PM

Pseudonymous wrote:
"I could not tap my feet to much of what Walter Pardon sang, and I found myself thinking that the strong sense of rhythm in USA folk versions of British originals must have come from African influences. Am I incorrect in noticing a lack of rhythm, and how typical in your view is that relatively rhythmless delivery of 'traditional' English singing?"

Good question. Walter Pardon was probably the least toe-tapping singer you could find in recorded English traditional folk song. He consistently broke up his rhythms, to the extent that a dogma, based on his singing, became established to the effect that British folk singers characteristically used broken rhythms. Like most dogmas, this one fell apart as soon as you listened to a few other singers. I repeat, there is no single traditional singing style!

Willie Scott's 'Banks of Newfoundland' on Topic's 'Voice of the People', for instance, is set in a driving, bang-on-the-beat 3:4 time. Other singers like Joseph Taylor and Phil Tanner, as Vic Smith has already pointed out, could be very rhythmic most of the time but still break the rhythm in places. We know that collectors of the Sharp era often struggled to render the rhythms they were hearing in conventional music notation, hence the startling changes in time signature observed in their renditions of a single verse.

My opinion on this rhythmic irregularity is that it wasn't a matter of consistent 'broken rhythm', but more a case of single phrases sung in consistent rhythm, but with extended gaps at the ends of the phrases. These people weren't accompanying themselves with guitars or other rhythmic instruments, so they paused at the end of the phrase only for as long as it took to inhale. Though you do also find instances where the pause at the end of the phrase is shorter than modern ears expect because, again, there is no guitar to fill in a couple of empty beats in the 'regularized' rhythm, and the singer moves on halfway through the bar.

Going back to Pseu's original comment, American singers began using rhythmic accompaniment on banjo or guitar a lot earlier than English ones, for reasons at least partly connected with the recording industry. The rhythm they used was largely 4:4 (which is the characteristic time signature of a frailed banjo) or 3:4. This sort of thing didn't start to happen in England until skiffle and the second folk revival.

I think there is some discussion of the need not to apply the values of 'art'music to folk in Julia Bishop's chapters in Roud, but surely people liked to tap their feet. Traditionally, rhythm and metre were supposed to be part of the ways within the oral tradition that supported memory?

Again Vic has beaten me to it on this one. I would say that rhythm and metre were largely subservient to storytelling in British Isles folk song, although songs used in a social setting like a pub sing might acquire some regularity owing to the need to sing the chorus in time. Vic's quote from Hamish Henderson ["Listen to Jeannie (Robertson), to Jane (Turriff) and you will find that the words that they need to tell their story are what comes first.... the tune just has to fit in with what the words demand."] is very telling, although I would add the caveat that, to singers like Walter Pardon and Joseph Taylor, melody was clearly very important as well as the words.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,John Bowden (not a typo!)
Date: 25 Aug 18 - 05:49 PM

About While Shepherds/Ilkley Moor...

Ian Russell's note on the tune "Cranbrook" (While Shepherds..) in the programme for the 2016 Festival of Village carols in Grenoside says:

"Cranbrook - Formerly widespread in South Yorkshire but now rarely heard except in Grenoside. Words by Nahum Tate (!700). Earliest carol text permitted to be sing in church - a paraphrase of Luke's Gospel. Tune by Thomas Clark, the Canterbury shoemaker (1775 - 1859: 1805" [i.e. the tune was composed/published in 1805].
"The tune is used for the well-known parody of Yorkshire dialect, 'On Ilkla Moor Baht'at': earliest reference 1916, but thought to date from late 1870s".

So "While Shepherds..." was being sung to Cranbrook a good 70 years before Ilkla Moor was composed. We still sing it at the Top Red Lion, Grenoside, during the season, and often have to explain that we are NOT singing it to Ilkla Moor, but that it's the other way round!


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 25 Aug 18 - 03:52 PM

On Ilkley Moor is probably a folk song as my mother taught it to me and when the family and I drove near Ilkley I taught it to them. Three generations, and we never wrote it down. :)

In my hymnal (1889) While Shepherds Watched has the tune 'Gabriel'


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Vic Smith
Date: 25 Aug 18 - 02:25 PM

Several websites suggest that you are quite right, Richard. I didn't know that! I rather like the rather sniffy comment on Wiki which states that it is no longer widely recognised as a hymn or carol tune in the United Kingdom.

Ah well! I will just have to go back to singing Whilst Shepherds Watched... to the tune of Somewhere Over The Rainbow.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 25 Aug 18 - 01:25 PM

Vic said
> Think of the carol, Whilst Shepherds Watched...There used to be a time in folk clubs when every Christmas folk club meeting had it sung to the tune of Ilkley Moor Bar 'tat

I believe that tune was originally one of the umpteen tunes written for While Shepherds, and the Ilkley Moor words were written as a spoof, which however became far better known than the original.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Aug 18 - 11:31 AM

Just escaped form Dublin before the Pope arrived
Whew!!!

"Turning to 'Cupid the Pretty Ploughboy', as sung by Pardon,
First off it has a change from first to third person, which makes it unusual,"
WWho on earth told you that ?
It's one of the common devices in folk song making
I have not been vitioloc not have I been insulting (unless you regard contradicting wht I elieve t be wrong - I know at least one of you who does
Wlater's 'Cupid' is pretty obviouly a broadsing but despite that, he is skill made it into a half-decent song
Jim


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 25 Aug 18 - 11:21 AM

Hello and thanks Tootler.

John Wilmott was, of course, the Duke of Rochester, as you will know; just clarifying for other readers. I'm sure I've seen 'dildos' or something like them on classical artifacts etc.

On the topic of rhythm, in Roud chapter 9 (19th century) page 324 there is an account by Waugh of pub singing with two references to people beating time to the singing. On that basis I can maybe conjecture that not all English 'folk' singing lacked a foot-tappable rhythm.

Tzu


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Tootler
Date: 25 Aug 18 - 10:05 AM

Your quibble about the dildo reminded me. I have Lucie Skeaping's book of 17th century Broadsides and one of the songs is called "For Want of Dildo" so I did a quick check using that fount of dodgy knowledge, Wikipedia. Actually very useful as long as you bear in mind the necessary health warning.

It mentions "Signior Dildo" which was written by John Wilmot and also a poem by Thomas Nash from the 1590s called "The Choice of Valentines, Nashe's Dildo or The Merrie Ballad of Nashe his Dildo". This was not printed at the time, due to its obscenity but it was still widely circulated and made Nashe's name notorious.

The entry suggests that Dildos have been around since forever and that the when and where the term originated is unknown.

Now back to the serious stuff.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 25 Aug 18 - 09:31 AM

Sorry the above quibble was me.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Aug 18 - 09:31 AM

I have a minor quibble with something Roud says at the bottom of page
288 in the 18th century chapter. He says that dildo was a new invention. I suspect not. Certainly the Earl of Rochester wrote a poem called Signior Dildo in the 17th century and according to his biographer Rochester owned some of these.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 25 Aug 18 - 08:42 AM

The Sussex Traditions site is interesting. I note the bit about the Tester family. My grandfather is not known to have played in dance bands, but two of his sons who were also military bandsmen in their turn used their skills on civvy street: one played music at a theatre, and the other played with dance bands at the seaside. A third died at Ypres.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Aug 18 - 04:05 AM

Vic Legg singing while shepherds to the laughing policeman, I would love to hear that


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 24 Aug 18 - 07:57 PM

Hello Vic

I really appreciate your going into so much detail. Much food for thought, and many suggestions for more listening and reading.

As I may have said one of my grandfathers was a military band leader. He died in 1940 aged 86. We never met! His newspaper obituary stated that he could play every instrument in a military band, and he made a career out of it, but I had not thought of the peacetime performances in public parks as being recruitment oriented, though this makes sense I suppose. But this was late 19th early 20th century.

I think the Roud chapter that started me on this was 17th century as Playford was mentioned. But I have had 'folkie' friends who hate 'Playford', though I know people 'do' it.

Thanks again.

Tzu


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,paperback
Date: 24 Aug 18 - 07:32 PM

Oh wait, that wasn't the poet - that was me! anyway, may the road rise to meet you...


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,paperback
Date: 24 Aug 18 - 07:28 PM

Hey Jim Carroll, job jobbed keeping this thread alive and as for yourself : the poet said, if they're not trying to kill you you're not doing your job.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Vic Smith
Date: 24 Aug 18 - 06:49 PM

Right, home again. Can I take you back to my post at 24 Aug 18 - 07:40 AM where we were getting in the way that dance tunes and song tunes were interchangeable and in many cases changed their function from rhythmic dance tune played for their function and freer way they were used by singers and the question was asked Am I incorrect in noticing a lack of rhythm? because this question implies that the answer should be 'yes' or 'no'.
There are a number of points I want to make about this and other things that Pseudonymous mentioned in that post:-
* Tunes interchanged between folk song and dance but that was only two aspects of their interchangeability. Other tunes that were taken for for song and dance came from a variety of sources - the more obvious would be those the tradition obtained from the stage hornpipes that travelling companies took to towns and villages throughout the country, mainly for an ' entr'acte' function. This was a two-way process as folk tunes were adopted by those who wrote for stage shows with John Gay's Beggers' Opera being a prime example.
* Songs that first appeared in the Pleasure Gardens also made this two way adaptation.
* In the early days of that most amazing resource of English dance tunes The Village Music Project, I was interviewing the originator and director, John Adams. Towards the end of the interview after we had covered a great deal of the methodology, I asked John if there were any initial conclusions that he could draw from his work so far. He must have anticipated that question because his immediate reply was:-
Napoleon called England 'a nation of shopkeepers' but if we are talking about the music of English dance - and many songs for that matter - we are a nation of soldiers. So many of our dance tunes came from those that were made for the militia bands that each town and county had to raise to encourage young men to 'take the shilling'.

This struck a bell with me straight away as in a much earlier interview with the great concertina player Scan Tester, he told me that as a boy, probably in the 1880's and '90's he had played the keyed bugle in a militia band. Many of the unnamed polkas that Scan played for dancing seemed to me to have been adapted from marches as John Adams was suggesting to me.
So when Pseu suggests I found myself thinking that the strong sense of rhythm in USA folk versions of British originals must have come from African influences. he can only be talking about the era of recorded sound and any strong rhythmic influence was, in my opinion, more likely to have come from military bands who had playing for marching as their functionality.
We are very fortunate that some of the earliest recordings of English singers, those made by Percy Grainger at Brigg were of singers who almost certainly never heard a recording of music so only had ever heard other singers and musicians. Listen to Joseph Taylor, George Wray et al. and then try and reproduce their sense of rhythm in your own singing afterwards. If you are like me, you will find the way they wander between a strict rhythm and some freer passages very difficult to reproduce.
Hamish Henderson (another interviewee) said to me, "Listen to Jeannie (Robertson), to Jane (Turriff) and you will find that the words that they need to tell their story are what comes first.... the tune just has to fit in with what the words demand."
Think of the carol, Whilst Shepherds Watched... At school we were told that this carol was sung to either melodies called 'Cranbrook' or 'Winchester Old' but the common metre of the carol means that it fits to very many tunes and many village carol singers have used different tunes for it, There used to be a time in folk clubs when every Christmas folk club meeting had it sung to the tune of Ilkley Moor Bar 'tat though a personal favourite of mine is the devastatingly funny way that Vic Legg sings this carol to the tune of The Laughing Policeman!

A lot of what I am trying to say here has been well stated by Richard in his response to Pseu where he wrote (more succinctly than I do):-
Rhythmic or not varies a lot, depending on the particular song and the particular singer. Instrumental accompaniment, which is very common in the revival and was pretty rare in the tradition, tends to impose a fairly regular rhythm, though there are accompanists who can avoid that.

Finally in this overlong post could I link you to the Introduction to Music on the 'Sussex Traditions' website. I was asked to write the draft introduction and then to circulate it to other committee members. They all seemed to think that it was OK apart from one.... the person who really mattered and that was Steve Roud. He said that would have to be totally rewritten, I felt rather miffed at this. A couple of days later I received another email from him apologising and saying that actually at 75% of it was fine but he did not want to have the quotation from John Kirkpatrick at the start and that what I had said about church music was largely wrong.
In the end we had a meeting and thrashed out the final wording between us. The John K. introduction. Steve accepted when I gave my reasons for it but there were areas where his knowledge was far superior to mine. In the end we thrashed out the wording and both our names were put to it. Working closely with him in this way was both stimulating and very demanding and I learned never to make any suggestion in what I wrote that could not back up with evidence. Coming to understand his methodology in this way increased the impact of his book when I read it later in the year,


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,Walter and his rhythm sticks
Date: 24 Aug 18 - 11:29 AM

Walter was footloose and fancyfree with his vocals, what would Jim say


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 24 Aug 18 - 09:44 AM

Absolutely know what you mean about relief. Apologies for having been provoked into a toys out of the pram moment as this is how it seems to have come across.

I often follow the bass player, though once had an odd experience playing spoons when a drummer said he had been following me (down the garden path probably I though). But follow the singer, yes.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 24 Aug 18 - 09:22 AM

Ah, what a relief! A succession recently of thoughtful and constructive posts instead of people misquoting each other

Rhythmic or not varies a lot, depending on the particular song and the particular singer. Instrumental accompaniment, which is very common in the revival and was pretty rare in the tradition, tends to impose a fairly regular rhythm, though there are accompanists who can avoid that.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Lighter
Date: 24 Aug 18 - 09:20 AM

If we're talking about "tradition" per se, singability is obviously a requirement but it isn't the whole story.

"Napoleon's Farewell to Paris," for example, is "singable" in the sense that some few singers actually memorized and sang it. But its place in tradition, in contrast with that of "Barbara Allen" and the other usual suspects, was - so far as we can tell - minimal.

One feels that for most singers, "N's F to P" and its like were quite unsingable, and thus only peripheral to "tradition" in general, no matter how those who did sing them learned and (perhaps) passed them on.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 24 Aug 18 - 08:59 AM

"I found myself thinking that the strong sense of rhythm in USA folk versions of British originals must have come from African influences"

I knew, of course, even as I thought it that it was an odd thought.

Just saying - as this topic is another hornet's nest I would not want to be disturbing.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 24 Aug 18 - 08:22 AM

By the way, the post of 21 Aug 18 - 03:16 PM above was from me. I forgot to give it a name, but hopefully the context makes it obvious.
Tzu


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 24 Aug 18 - 08:12 AM

Vic
Thanks for thoughtful and interesting response.
Awaiting developments with interest.
You are probably going to blow our minds with a very clever analysis of rhythm other than the regular foot-tapping variety, but I should not try to guess.
Tzu


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 24 Aug 18 - 08:02 AM

I wrote "The emphasis is so much on words, not music." I was referring to the emphasis in discussions especially on Mudcat, rather than to Pardon.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 24 Aug 18 - 07:46 AM

Thanks for the responses and suggestions for further listening. Thanks too for not being angry at my responses to Walter Pardon's interpretations, or accusing me of 'attacking him'.


There is a sense of humour in some of his delivery, I know, which is a good point (to me at any rate).

Something about the delivery reminds me of other early 20th century singing I have heard, perhaps some of the stuff my parents' generation might have heard in theatres and on the radio. The emphasis is so much on words, not music. If I remember aright, it has even been asserted that the music is not relevant, that only the words matter, and here again Roud is useful, though maybe there is room for a focus on singing styles, types of ornament (and Pardon does use some) and I don't recall much of this from Roud. I might come back with examples from specific Pardon songs? Or would that be too tedious?

What I am realising is that any 'topic' seems to come with different ideas and approaches and/or with something that almost looks like its own folklore. Two recent examples would be a) Annie of Finty's mill, with people making claims about statues of the character on the roof of Fyvie castle and stones in the church wall which turn out to be untrue in one case and 'Pictish' in another and b) the question of whether Pardon's songs came from broadsheets, with Pardon apparently on record as saying he believed they did to one collector, yet another collector hotly denying that Pardon said this.

I'm guessing shanties would have been rhythmical, the ones (or imitations) we were taught as kids were) but my understanding is that African American sources are now being claimed for many of these with arguments about them as well ..... :) As one prone to sea-sickness I tend to feel a bit quesy at the thought of shanties.

I'm not much of a singer, more of a musician, and I was quite shocked to read on a Mudcat thread that the music wasn't important. Roud points out that some tunes got associated with particular topics, this is obvious when you consider the death march, but I did not know about Lilibullero (can't spell it, sang it often at school, didn't understand a word of it).


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Vic Smith
Date: 24 Aug 18 - 07:40 AM

I'll try again and try to press the right key this time....

Pseudonymous writes:-
I was looking at Roud again and he said in one chapter that a lot of tunes served both as dance tunes and as song tunes. Now dance presupposes rhythm. Yet I could not tap my feet to much of what Walter Pardon sang, and I found myself thinking that the strong sense of rhythm in USA folk versions of British originals must have come from African influences. Am I incorrect in noticing a lack of rhythm, and how typical in your view is that relatively rhythmless delivery of 'traditional' English singing?

This is a very interesting question which calls for a thoughtful answer, particularly the part that says Am I incorrect in noticing a lack of rhythm? because this question implies that the answer should be 'yes' or 'no'.

One of the greatest influeneces on my thinking on anything - not just the area around folk music has been the writings of the great American novelist, philosopher and thinker, Robert Pirsig. I read his Zen & the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance as a young man and I have re-read it more times than any other book I have read. It led me on to read all the other things he has read. I must admit that I sometimes find his ideas difficult and I struggle with the concepts, but usually I find the truth in what he is saying. On this point, particularly if you haven't read his greatest book, you might like to have a look at the extracts that deal with this aspect on the Awakin website. Basically what Pirsig is saying that the answer to a question of this nature should be 'yes', 'no' or 'mu'
Mu means "no thing." Like "quality" it points outside the process of dualistic discrimination. Mu simply says, "no class: not one, not zero, not yes, not no." It states that the context of the question is such that a yes and a no answer is in error and should not be given. "Unask the question" is what it says.

Elsewhere Pirsig suggests that an answer of 'mu' implies that you are asking the wrong question and I believe that you are in this case. I really have to go out now, but I want to try to answer this point more fully when I come back home.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Vic Smith
Date: 24 Aug 18 - 07:11 AM

Pseudonymous writes:-
I was looking at Roud again and he said in one chapter that a lot of tunes served both as dance tunes and as song tunes. Now dance presupposes rhythm. Yet I could not tap my feet to much of what Walter Pardon sang, and I found myself thinking that the strong sense of rhythm in USA folk versions of British originals must have come from African influences. Am I incorrect in noticing a lack of rhythm, and how typical in your view is that relatively rhythmless delivery of 'traditional' English singing?


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Howard Jones
Date: 24 Aug 18 - 02:42 AM

The facts are that we have a corpus of songs collected from the tradition and which generally regarded as "folk songs", and that the overwhelming majority of them were at some point published on broadsides. There is also evidence from traditional singers themselves that they sourced songs from broadsides. This is not new to Roud, Lloyd made the same point. Are we to suppose that the songs the 'folk' took from broadsides were only those which had been taken from the tradition in the first place, and that they rejected everything else, including the most popular songs of their day? That seems unlikely to me.

The measure of whether a song is singable or not is whether it is sung. We are concerned only with those which were found in the singing tradition, so clearly these were singable. We can ignore that part of the output of the broadside presses which may have been unsingable.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Aug 18 - 02:03 AM

Yet I could not tap my feet to much of what Walter Pardon sang,'
As i jnderstand it Walter was trying to stop the songs from being forgotten and had not sung the songs out very much, perhaps he is not the best example to use, how about listening to willie scott, or bob roberts, plenty of rhythm there, or some of the songs plough boys/farm workers used during work different songs and ryhthms for different jobs, eg hand milking ,ploughing etc how about shanties?tradtional songs were used for work, windy old weather was a net hauling song


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 23 Aug 18 - 08:48 PM

Hello Howard,

I suppose we got sidetracked into the occupational definitions via claims that some songs show insider knowledge available only to those in the job in question, and that this is strong evidence against a 'hack' origin for that song.   

Your last paragraph seems reasonable to me. I have read the 1954 definition, which even Lloyd quotes. Claims that I have read that the 'use' definition of folk overturns a century of scholarship demonstrating or arguing or assuming an 'origin' definition seem to me to misrepresent what people were actually saying.

But I am not quite so sure that there are 'facts' to follow. What Roud makes clear is that we have very little evidence about what practives of 'the folk' - defined loosely as the lower status strata of society - were in respect of singing and repertoire.

For me, as I said before, a judgement that a song is 'unsingable' is in any case a subjective statement. So, I suppose, are judgments that a particular song must have, or could not have been, written by a mediocre professional writer. And judgements will vary.

So maybe it is better to think of different theories, while taking into account what factual information we have. And as Roud says, a lot of the people who wrote about vernacular music and street singers and ballad sellers were unsympathetic witnesses.

I was looking at Roud again and he said in one chapter that a lot of tunes served both as dance tunes and as song tunes. Now dance presupposes rhythm. Yet I could not tap my feet to much of what Walter Pardon sang, and I found myself thinking that the strong sense of rhythm in USA folk versions of British originals must have come from African influences. Am I incorrect in noticing a lack of rhythm, and how typical in your view is that relatively rhythmless delivery of 'traditional' English singing? I think there is some discussion of the need not to apply the values of 'art'music to folk in Julia Bishop's chapters in Roud, but surely people liked to tap their feet. Traditionally, rhythm and metre were supposed to be part of the ways within the oral tradition that supported memory?

Any thoughts?


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Howard Jones
Date: 23 Aug 18 - 03:40 PM

I think we are in danger of taking these job titles too literally. "Ploughboys", however they were known in different areas, were men skilled in handling heavy horses. In addition to ploughing and harrowing, they would also be involved in all the other jobs around the farm which involved horses, which was pretty much everything. In East Anglia they were usually known as "horsemen", which says it all.

Turning back to the broadsides, it is too simple to dismiss them all as hack writers. No doubt many were, but a normal bell distribution curve would suggest the profession contained a range of talents and abilities, as you would expect in any occupation and just as you find in modern journalism. Somewhere Roud makes the point that these writers were only a few degrees up the social scale than those they were writing for, so it is quite possible that some may have had experience of farming, the sea or other occupations, which they were able to write about from a position of knowledge. Besides, I suspect the folk might be quite tolerant of errors provided they did not spoil the overall effect of the song, and if necessary these could in any event be edited out by the singers themselves.

We are only concerned with those songs which found their way into the oral tradition, which probably rules out the worst examples of broadside writing, and certainly those Jim dismisses, with some justification, as unsingable.

Furthermore, the broadsides also published the popular songs of the day, written by professional songwriters and performed on the stage and in the pleasure gardens. Roud describes how the ordinary people could be exposed to these songs, not only through broadsides but from travelling players and performers. It goes against common sense to think that people would not take up these popular songs, and whilst most would be short-lived a few would have sufficient staying-power to remain in the tradition.

Finally, it is probable that the broadsides published existing folk songs, which probably included not only anonymous songs from the tradition but songs composed by ordinary people and offered for publication (which is something Roud describes).

No one has disagreed that the people made their own songs, the question is how much of what is regarded as traditional song originated this way. We are told that as much as 90% of the songs found in the tradition were published as broadsides. That leaves only around 10% where we can say with some confidence that they originated among the people. As for the rest, we can't be certain but they probably comprise a range of origins as described above. If only those songs composed by the people themselves can be regarded as folk song, that excludes a large part of the song tradition and which up until now has been thought of as "folk".

It is not a question of wishing to disprove that the folk made their own songs. It is about following the facts, even if they lead us to a conclusion that we find unwelcome. Roud points out that folk song did not exist in a cultural vacuum, and he has provided an explanation of how composed songs could find their way into the tradition, and I for one find it persuasive.

Roud's concluding words are "once we have jettisoned the idea that it is the origin of a song which makes it folk, we are forced to concentrate on the people, and process, rather than the items themselves, to find our difference...put a pleasure garden song into the tradition and if it is not spat out as unsuitable it emerges at the other end as a clearly different type of song... it is now sung in a different way, by different people, in different places, and will never be the same again". This seems to me to be entirely consistent with the 1954 idea of what is folk song.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 23 Aug 18 - 12:54 PM

Jag

I guess one problem here is that practices will have changed through time.

So how do you get a match between song and historical context?

Also, if weavers were moving around, this fact cannot have been lost on the rest of society.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,jag
Date: 23 Aug 18 - 09:59 AM

And yes, I know, going back to medieval times may be too far.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,jag
Date: 23 Aug 18 - 09:58 AM

Hi Tzeu
https://www.historyonthenet.com/medieval-farming-the-farming-year/   February, March, July and 'Autumn' (the last in the text)

I think you will find that, as with modern farm contracting, there were were some fairly complicated and varied arrangements. Not everyone may have had a plough but unlike the oxen that did not need feeding so maybe even less people had there own oxen.

Similary I don't think it is clear to us as listeners to a song where, say, a weaver fitted into the local economy and society. I think some were itinerent, coming to use a housholds loom when required, others may have had their own but maybe wove other people's thread. I think those are the sort of details of social history that might show if a song was written by and for 'the folk' - but also may lead to us missing subleties of the story.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Vic Smith
Date: 23 Aug 18 - 09:36 AM

Has anyone ever totted up the relative frequency of the jobs that characters in songs did?

I don't think so, but there is a pi-chart showing causes of death in traditional English folk songs

.... and by 'traditional' we mean songs that have been created by .... AAAAARRRGGGHHHH!!!


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 23 Aug 18 - 09:30 AM

Jag

Some interesting points, but the general point that ploughing in readiness for sowing seeds England is generally an April/May activity as opposed to something done all round stands.

'Milkmaids' may be another misleading term. I'm sure old women also milked cows. But because of the cowpox thing dairy workers may have been less pockmarked than the general population.

But are there nouns to describe other tasks; eg 'seed scatterer'? I think 'harvester' is a pub chain but was it used to describe the workers?

Totting up the relative frequency would be interesting but there would be controversy about which songs to use. Gammon discusses how various workmans' tools incuding some musical instruments are used as the basis forbawdy metaphors; I'm thinking the plough is one of these. But he doesn't I don't hink attempt a relative frequency.

Roud does give examples of ordinary people making up songs, based upon historical documents. I think one instance of this is in the 17th century chapter.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,jag
Date: 23 Aug 18 - 09:16 AM

"They only plough once a year" I think you will find that that preparation for sowing involves ploughing more that once. Weed control is one reason - plough, wait for the weeds to germinate and then plough again. That's what the ox-ploughman I watched did.

Where ploughboy and milkmaid jobs that younger people did, so making them more likely characters for a romanic tale?

Has anyone ever totted up the relative frequency of the jobs that characters in songs did?


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,Harry
Date: 23 Aug 18 - 08:44 AM

Steve,

I was in the Navy for 9 years and several of my songs were performed by others as well as myself. One in a show onboard ship with Frankie Howard topping the bill.

I was an electrician back then - never a songwriter.

You are correct, of course, what I have done is of no interest to anyone here. I never thought it was.

However, my point still stands: you were making an absurd statement to be provacative.

Now I'll go back to reading and not commenting. Some of you really don't make this place very welcoming at all.

Harry


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 23 Aug 18 - 08:09 AM

Even more interesting, in the light of Roud's discussion of the way oral and literate aspects of our culture interacted is the information I just found out about the make up of the Scottish Regiments in Northern Europe, gleaned from European records of paying the bills. The officer posts included a 'scrivener'.

This ties in with what I have read in the past that where few people in a village could write, the person who could would write and read for those who could not, including, for example, letters to family members working far away.

Mention has been made of it being unlikely that poor country dwellers would have light to read ballads by after a long day's work. This implies that all work was done away from the home, which is patently not the case. And that there was full employment: not necessarily. And in summer the days are long, and then there are Sundays.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 23 Aug 18 - 07:34 AM

Something that came up while researching the covenanters/wars of the three kingdoms in the 17th century (background to the mill at Fyvie, there having been a battle at Fyvie Castle itself and a massacre at Aberdeen) was how many Scottish people were mercenaries in Europe. I wondered how far this might explain Child's finding of ballads in Sweden that were similar to English/Scottish ones. Might this result from the 17th century or are the sources he gives too early in relevant cases?


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 23 Aug 18 - 07:01 AM

Turning to 'Cupid the Pretty Ploughboy', as sung by Pardon,

First off it has a change from first to third person, which makes it unusual, some people say ballads are traditionally third person narratives.

Secondly it has literacy built into it as both the female character and the ploughboy are literate. The ploughboy sent a 'neat' reply to the letter sent by the woman. I thought that was interesting though I'm not sure what to make of it.

There is a web site seeming to be written by John Howson which says that Sabine Baring-Gold thought it came from a black-letter broadside of about 1670. It also says it was on a number of other broadsides.

But whatever the ultimate origin of the song, for me the references to classical mythology in that song seem to demonstrate links between songs sung by 'traditional' singers and literate traditions, quite apart from the references to literacy of both characters in the Pardon version.

Roud refers to a book by Adam Fox about oral and literate culture 1500 to 1700 and which seems to have a section on ballads. What can people tell us about this book?

Re-reading Roud I was interested to see how much evidence there was for people pasting ballads onto walls. Perhaps the written documents were seen as desirable artifacts even by those who had to wait for somebody literate to come by and decipher them. I believe that the modern 'stigma' attaching to non-literacy is just that, 'stigma', so likely there would have been no 'shame' in asking whoever was literate to decipher something.

They only plough once a year: the ploughboy would have had to find other tasks for the rest of a year. However often there is labelling of people 'ploughboys' in songs seems odd, it could not have been a full time job.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 23 Aug 18 - 04:09 AM

And the singing nun and Rabbie Burns. Of course there are exceptions but by and large the statement stands. Harry, until others start singing your songs what you have done doesn't apply here. Like it, CJ!


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,jag
Date: 23 Aug 18 - 03:15 AM

Though on the other hand we had the ‘Muxton carter’.

and the ‘singing postman’


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,jag
Date: 23 Aug 18 - 03:10 AM

If a ploughman wrote a number of songs that became known beyond his village then his name might pass into the historical record as a songwriter rather than as a ploughman.

Often we have to happen across a journalistic piece about a modern day singer or songwriter to find out what they do/did as a day job.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,CJ
Date: 23 Aug 18 - 03:09 AM

Mudcat - A Short Play

Bill - Oh I like folk music and here's a handy looking website
Fred - Hello Bill, welcome on board
Bill - Thanks Fred. Where do you think the old ballad 'Jumping Bananas' originated?
Fred - I think you're an absolute idiot
Bill - Well, I think you smell
Fred - No, YOU smell
Bill - No, YOU smell
Fred - No, YOU smell
Bill - No, YOU smell
Fred - No, YOU smell
Bill - No, YOU smell
Dick - NO YOU SMELL CANT YOU UNDERSTAND TAH,,T

Joe Offer - That's enough smelling now, boys

Curtain Closes: The End.

Look out for the follow-up: Ewan MacColl, where we discover our hero had a smell that wasn't his.


    That's enough smelling, boys. We're bored. Stay on topic.
    -Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,guest
Date: 23 Aug 18 - 02:32 AM

Steve,

Your statement is most certainly not rocket science.

I'm sure there would have been a few ploughmen who wrote songs. And I'm sure some of them would sing their own songs on high days and holidays. I'm equally sure that one or two of these songs have entered the tradition and maybe have been 'borrowed' by professional ballad writers.

But, I have no evidence of it happening.

However, I do know that non-professional songwriters do write and perform their own songs.

I'm an archaeologist - I write songs. As yet, as far as I'm aware, none have entered the tradition but they may yet.

Rattling cages won't get us anywhere.

Harry


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 22 Aug 18 - 06:04 PM

Songwriters write songs. Ploughmen plough the land etc ad infinitum. Not rocket science.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Aug 18 - 03:32 PM

I remember Richard Grainger telling us of his visit to a museum where they were playing his "Whitby Whaler" and someone telling him it was a traditional song. As far as I know Richard has never Whaled!


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Vic Smith
Date: 22 Aug 18 - 03:22 PM

Richard wrote:-
So we have one person with the experience and a different person who was the song writer.
Another good example would be Generations of Change by the late Matt Armour. He was neither ploughman nor fisherman nor did he work on an oil rig but in that song he wrote knowledgably about each of them incorporating the results of his research skilfully into his composition.
A mark of his success with this song is that it has been taken up by one of the last generation of bothy workers, Joe Aitken. You can hear Joe's very fine rendition by clicking here.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 22 Aug 18 - 12:48 PM

Sorry, I've been otherwise occupied for the much of the time lately including all day Tuesday, hence a delay in responding to a post from Jim.

On Monday he said (in response to me)
"you have totally ignored the main bit of my question".

I did not deliberately ignore anything. If I overlooked the main bit please point me to it.

In the same post Jim posed some apparently rhetorical questions
"How many of them worked the land to become familiar with the working terms that appear in the songs, the problems of seasonal changes, the pressure of having to pay rent....?
The same with going to sea or to war
How many of them experienced the family life where it is necesary to preserve your good-looking daughter for suitable marriage in order to try and take a tiny step up the social ladder - how many of them experienced the family conflicts that causes?"

All those things happened to people and all those things got written about, but what we're asking Jim for is evidence from within the songs that the people who made them were the people who had experienced the events, or else people close to them in the same social class.

GUEST,jag cited Shoals of Herring and Jim commented that MacColl based it on the words of Sam Larner. Indeed: a skilled song writer who had not worked on a fishing vessel talked to someone who had and thus acquired the material for a song. Sam himself did not (as far as we know) make a song about it. So we have one person with the experience and a different person who was the song writer. Clearly that is not the only possible scenario but it is a very plausible one for a lot of songs.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 22 Aug 18 - 11:58 AM

Yes Vic.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Vic Smith
Date: 22 Aug 18 - 11:22 AM

For the first time, Pseudonymous, you have allowed yourself to be drawn in, to let it get under your skin. Look again at your post of 22 Aug 18 - 09:18 AM and try and find a reference to anything musical, anything constructive that moves things along and I don't think this has happened before. You have made some very valuable well thought out contributions here - but this was not one of them. I have stated in this thread that I will no longer respond to these provocations and I think that you would do well to do the same and concentrate on your positive thoughtful posts.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 22 Aug 18 - 09:18 AM

Mr Carroll, sorry,'Jim', you can hardly expect people to come onto this forum using their real names when it is plain to them before they join that they risk being subjected to rejoinders that they might experience as vitriolic and personalised, not to mention heavily sarcastic, that their views will be twisted, misrepresented, and disrespected by posters who appear to have anger management issues.


    Let's get back to the topic of discussion, please. Personal squabbling is not of interest to anyone but the squabblers.
    Please note that the use of a consistent pseudonym has always been accepted at Mudcat. Indeed, it is a good protection for many people to use a pseudonym instead of their real name. Now, back to our discussion.
    -Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Aug 18 - 05:25 AM

Can I just say that you and others have complained of my being insulting - I have not, or certainly no more than others in this discussion
You have just gone off to another thread (the 'Folk Club' one) and insulted one on England's best and most important traditional performers by suggesting that his singing is the worst thing you can give new people to listen to - it would put them off folk song
I find that totally intolerable
Walter was a fine singer who managed to make all the songs he sang pleasantly listenable and important - even 'Cupid the Ploughboy', that you don't like his singing is something you need to keep to yourself
It has long been a convention in the revival (up to now anyway) that you don't attack our source singers - our benefactors - they are not part of our chosen folk scene -
They came out of generosity to give us our songs; Walter was, in my opinion, among the best and most generous of them
I say in my opinion - I'm no longer sure what some people think about the old crowd and their songs nowadays especially as one of our New Age crowd described one of Ireland's best loved songs as being "bloody awful"
If this scurrilous behavior becomes common the whole folk movement will disintegrate into a back-biting slanging match
I've always lived to see the day when the older crowd moved on with their hatred of Lloyd and MacColl and the newcomers could judge these people on their contribution and abilities
I hope this isn't a sign of their rebirth
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 22 Aug 18 - 04:04 AM

:D


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Aug 18 - 03:48 AM

"I am grateful to Jim Carroll for his lecture on good manners,"
Somebody had to do it
Jim


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 22 Aug 18 - 03:46 AM

:D


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 22 Aug 18 - 03:46 AM

I am grateful to Jim Carroll for his lecture on good manners, a topic on which I am happy to accept he is eminently well qualified to speak.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Aug 18 - 02:55 AM

" Mr Carroll's"
Mr Carroll again - surely a sign of insecurity - certainly one of bad manners
I'd return the favour if you didn't insist on remaining anonymous - it just seems bad-mannered to me

It seems obvious that a group of people who want 'the folk' not to have made folk songs are not prepared to talk it through and argue all the points and it seems equally obvious that those who came up the the idea in the first place haven't thought through the destructive implications of what they are claiming
Not only have they relegated English working people to non-creative customers for their culture and passed the honour over to tabloid-type writers of the past, but by undermining all past scholarship around who created our folk songs they have spancilled future scholarship - who is going to want to bother about the scribblings of past William McGonnigals other than to make fun of them

That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it

There was never was a chance of changing the opinions of those who wanted something to be true, but at least I've managed to confirm n my own mind that I'm not imagining that both the 'broadside origins theory and the re-definition has not been approached with the seriousness such a profound ideas should have been - if it had, those who supporting it would have been prepared to argue for it
A sort of 'moral victory', if nothing else, if a victory were being sought
Off to Dublin for a few days to talk to people who know what their folk songs are and respect them for what they are - and certainly don't lump them in with history's commercial output
Jim


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 21 Aug 18 - 04:15 PM

An old ballad writer once had a day out
Looking for something to ballad about

He say Fyvie Castle with its turrets so tall
And the sad old gravestone beside the kirk wall.

He talked to the locals and the minister, Will
They told him that Agnes was born at the mill.

He went back to Auld Reekie, had a dram with pal Lammie
And together they made a sad ballad about Annie.


That's my theory, and I'm sticking to it.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Aug 18 - 03:16 PM

Turning back to Roud; he says something that might possibly be relevant to the song about Annie from the Mill of Tifty. He says that in the 17th century there was a phenomenon called 'ballading' whereby if people disliked somebody they would concoct a ballad about them. Some law cases relating to this are recorded because they ended up in the Star Chamber. Now this is where the use of a Scottish example in a discussion about Folk Song in England becomes problematic, because, of course, Roud does not mention whether something similar happened in Scotland. I don't see why not.

It appears (and I think this was in the Folk Song Journal that we were referred to earlier) that contemporary documentary evidence shows that Smith, the miller of Tifty, was in effect himself accused of witchcraft in respect of a neighbour's cows, a complaint which was referred back to the local kirk to deal with. So he seems to have been unpopular in some circles. We know this because Amanda MacLean refers to the case as mentioned in Presbytery records. And we have a song which accuses the miller, his wife, and two of his children of brutality and ultimately, murder. These are serious accusations, and ones for which there appears to be no justification. So just maybe the song was written out of spite?

According to MacLean, the 'ferm toun' of Tift was on the Fyvie estate: the Smiths appear therefore to have been tenants of the estate.

I am not arguing against Mr Carroll's interpretation of the song in terms of character being suffiently high-ranking to aspire to marry his daughter to the heir in waiting of the local castle, though I think one could reasonably do this. I think people are entitled to interpret songs however they like.

Just in case there is any misunderstanding, I have never said that people of that time might not have objected to their daughter marrying a person simply because he was a soldier: what I think I may have said is that in respect of the actual people believed by MacLean to be in some sense the 'sources' of the characters, the tenant of a mill would probably be glad to marry his daughter to somebody like Lammie, who was a member of the gentility as evidenced by his job in the Royal Guard. MacLead explains that because it did the job of guarding royalty they didn't let riff raff in (or words to that effect). The man had two wives and a fair few children and lived to a ripe age in Edinburgh.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Aug 18 - 03:04 PM

"I took from it that a statue doesn't mean someone is not fictional"
A bit to convoluted for me I'm afraid so I'll state my position agai
THere is no evidence connecting the statute of Molly Malone to a single historical figure including the 18th century prostitute some people once claimed it was
The matter has been discussed in length in The Irish Times and the suggestion was that the claim was first made to a visiting Yank by a piss-taking Dub in an effort to sell it to him
Though I firmly believe that the feller with the wings in Piccadilly Circus was England's first Prime Minister!!
Jim


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Lighter
Date: 21 Aug 18 - 02:49 PM

Please do, Jim.

Molly and I go way back - to elementary school, I think.

In fact, I was being light-hearted *and* informative, which isn't easy to do.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,jag
Date: 21 Aug 18 - 02:00 PM

Whatever the purpose I took from it that a statue doesn't mean someone is not fictional. That some people think the one in Dublin is not fictional, as contributed by Jim, further points to the unreliablity of accounts relating to statues.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Aug 18 - 01:48 PM

"I thought Lighter was being light-hearted, myself."
I thought he was representative of much that has gone on here "all wind and pee like the barber's cat",
as my mother used to say
He certainly wasn't being helpful
Jim


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 21 Aug 18 - 01:17 PM

I thought Lighter was being light-hearted, myself.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 21 Aug 18 - 01:08 PM

Vic

Yes, your point about non-unionised rings a bell, I think.

And lots of what they produced seems inappropriate through modern eyes.

But then, that's 'folk' for you.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,jag
Date: 21 Aug 18 - 01:00 PM

There is a statue of character from a song (maybe) on a castle in Scotland and a statue of a character from a song on a street in Dublin.

Where does that get us?


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Vic Smith
Date: 21 Aug 18 - 12:36 PM

The above post sent in error before I had finished what the point was!

My reasons for writing the above was to bring to the attention that fact that these comics were not the product of the people but were devised by desk bound hacks.
Worse than that; they were the work of non-unionised desk bound hacks.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Aug 18 - 12:31 PM

"Some come here to read and write some come here to ponder....."
And some just come to stand and stir
Not particularly brave or intelligent
Jim


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Vic Smith
Date: 21 Aug 18 - 12:31 PM

The post at 21 Aug 18 - 11:35 AM reminds me that in the 1940s when I was a boy in Edinburgh, the character that is depicted in that statue in Dundee was in his relative youth. He first appeared in the Dandy in 1937.
I had bought a copy on this comic with my very small amount of pocket money and had it with me when I went to some sort of family gathering at at my Granny's flat in Leith. I tried to show it to a number of my heavily unionised uncles who were there; they were not impressed and didn't want to look at it. Eventually, one of them took me aside and told me that before I bought any comic, I was to turn to the back page and look at the very bottom line. If it said, "Published by D.C. Thompson of Dundee" that I was never to buy it because no-one in that firm was allowed to join a trade union. I was devastated! No only would this cut me off from from the Dandy and the Beano but also from the Broons and Oor Willie who were in the Sunday Post which was also a Thompson publication.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,Nemesis
Date: 21 Aug 18 - 12:27 PM

Jim
Some come here to read and write some come here to ponder.....


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Aug 18 - 12:12 PM

By the way Lighter - I'll give Molly your love when I see her in Dublin on Wednesday, shall I?
Jim


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Aug 18 - 12:10 PM

"She's now regarded by folkies as a historical figure, "
No she isn't - she's regarded as that by (usually American) tourists
It underlines the reliability of their veracity of their own knowledge

Molly is so "recently installed as to be now celebrating her thirtieth year on the streets of Dublin - she was installed in 1988 - she was moved to Suffolk Street in 2014
For your information, Dubliners refer to her as 'The Tart With the Cart'
Similarly, the statue of Anna Livia Plurabelle, a character in James Joyce's Finnegans Wake is referred to as 'The Floozie in the Jacuzzi'
Dubliners, folkies or otherwise, are sensible enough to not take these fictional characters too seriously
THere is no evidence whatever that the statue is based on a real woman
I don't think you scored many points there Lighter, do you
Why do you people insist on making this insulting garbage up - is it an "Irish" thing ?
"Jim Carroll thank goodness a good thread spoiled by your arguments over irrelevant moot points"
Whatever the merits of my 'moot points' - this rather hit-and-run anonymous posting is the only one of yours in a thread running over a year
Can we estimate your interest and knowledge of this subject by that fact or are you a stalker just here to stir it?
Very brave of you, I'm sure

"I am afraid that I have to join the ranks of those who in the past have asked Jim Carroll not to misrepresent what they have said."
Where have I?

I have answered every question put up - every single one - none of you have answered mine, nor do you intend to

I think my point is made, don't you ?
(The Archers, for crying out loud!!)

This has become little more than a mob slanging match - I trust our worthy adjudicator will note this and issue warnings
Let's see, shall we
Jim


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 21 Aug 18 - 11:42 AM

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Dan_and_the_Minx_-_geograph.org.uk_-_331803.jpg

Respect to DC Thomson and Co


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 21 Aug 18 - 11:35 AM

:)

There is a statue of a large man wearing a cowboy hat in the centre of Dundee which demonstrates that the famed tales of this desperado originate somewhere in the U S of A, and not in the mind of the sensationalist ands commercially motivated hacks. How could an outsider have known that he loved cow pie? How could a mere desk-jockey have known that hipster beards are not a modern phenomenon but date back at least until the age of the scabbards in the Hermitage Museum in Russia?

Now until you answer my points we are done here :)


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 21 Aug 18 - 11:28 AM

Guest and Lighter

:)


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 21 Aug 18 - 11:10 AM

But surely, logically, only a shellfish salesperson, steeped in the practise of fishmongery, would have known that cockles and mussels were sold "alive, alive-o" from wheelbarrows? Equally surely, a busty young maid, and not one for covering up her ample busoms, would have been susceptible to a "fever"? So it MUST have its origins in the oral tradition predating the bad-poet hacks of Edinburgh and was, logically, written by a working-class hero?

Too much insider knowledge to be fictitious ;0)


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Lighter
Date: 21 Aug 18 - 10:48 AM

Pseudonymous, did you know that there's a recently installed statue in Dublin of the fictitious Molly Malone - heroine of a song written in Scotland in 1884?

She's now regarded by folkies as a historical figure, an amiable Irish prostitute of the seventeenth or eighteenth century, with a heart of gold.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 21 Aug 18 - 09:54 AM

I am afraid that I have to join the ranks of those who in the past have asked Jim Carroll not to misrepresent what they have said.

It is disappointing that this interesting discussion is to be cut short because Jim had said he had researched this song, and I would have been interested in what he had found out about it.

The song has a Roud number: 98, and a ballad version of it may be seen on the VWML website, easily accessible by googling.

I have learned that it appears in Child because he took it from a collection by Jameson. The latter is online, and is the earliest example I know of assertions that the song is about real people. Jameson took the song down from a stall ballad.

I have learned that people in or on the edge of the folksong world have come up with all sorts of stories about the song, and about the 'true story' which it is sometimes asserted to tell. One example was that Lammie played his trumpet from the towers of Fyvie Castle; another is that there is a statue of him on the castle.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,Nemisis
Date: 21 Aug 18 - 09:45 AM

Jim Carroll thank goodness a good thread spoiled by your arguments over irrelevant moot points


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Aug 18 - 08:46 AM

"the one he referred us to) the actual Andrew Lammie was in fact a soldier"
It was poetic licence to make him a soldier - the ballad has hi as a servant
We are not discussing this as a factual representation but as a piece of creative invention based on living characters
That is what our folk songs have always done and that is what I have claimed
The main characters are a millers daughter and a servant - end of story
I am (or was - this is my last word n the subject) discussing this as a folk-made ballad not a piece of historical documentation

I don't know how you got the idea that upper class parents didn't object to their daughters running off with soldiers - ourtt literature is full of such plots - it even has a title "social misalliance"
A good looking daughter you could marry off well was money in the bank for a family wishing to climb the social ladder - it brought them power, influence and land
This is exactly what this ballad is about

"The "Shoals of Herring" deals with its subject matter with reality and sympathy"
Excellent example
"Shoals" is based entirely on interviews with two Norfolk deep sea herring fishermen, Sam Larner and Ronnie Balls - he words used are largely theirs and not MacColl's
His best songs were made using exactly the same method

THe Archers is about middle-class farming where working people are depicted, at best, in a patronising manner, but quite often as insulting caricatures - they out-Dibdin Dibdin

Radio writers get time to research their subjects - it's been pretty well established by all sides that broadside hacks didn't
Sorry - fell at the first fence, I'm afraid

I do hope Richard is watching this - making this a diversion from the main argument is exactly why I refuse to enter diversive blind alleys like this

Unless you intend to address my main points I'm finished here
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 21 Aug 18 - 08:46 AM

Sorry the last post was me. As this song is, apparently, so revered and 'respected' (for reasons that escape me), perhaps Jim could share the results of his research into it. That might explain the attraction better.

I love the sort of folk supported by Bert Lloyd toward the end of his life: the folk-rocky stuff. I think Aly Bain is marvellous. I enjoy lots of 'folk'.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Aug 18 - 08:33 AM

I also found a bit about the church, which mentioned a number of stones on it, but not one of these is about a miller. Happy to read info on this supposed stone to the miller on the church if the claim can be substantiated.

It really is interestesting how much 'lore' gets created about songs, much of which turns out to be fiction.

Incidentally, I have a book by Roy Palmer on British history through the broadsides and it is quite interesting.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 21 Aug 18 - 08:26 AM

Slip of the finger while distracted by consideration of yet more pejorative question begging-remarks about the composers of broadside ballads. Miller of course: same point applies.

As Jim Carroll is fully aware, (or should be if he has actually read Amanda Maclean's article, the one he referred us to) the actual Andrew Lammie was in fact a soldier. By the simple process of googling I ascertained that these particular troops were made up of members of the gentry.

The word 'daft' was chosen for its mildness. I learned while googling about this song that some folk singers will not sing it because of the violence it portrays.

'at a time when tradespeople were replacing the gentry as leaders of the community'. Hmm. My knowledge of Scottish history is limited, a book by Neil Oliver, background to James Hogg, Walter Scott.

The late 17th century is often referred to as 'the killing time' in relation to the violent religious arguments of the time. So I'm not sure that it is quite accurate to refer to 'the community'.

Interestingly, the/a real Miller of seems to have been Presbyterian while those who held Fyvie Castle appear to have secretly been Catholic.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,jag
Date: 21 Aug 18 - 08:03 AM

They deal with their subject matter with reality and sympathy and their characters smell of tar and cordite and cowshit and have dirt under their fingernails

Proves nothing other than that writers did some research.

The "Shoals of Herring" deals with its subject matter with reality and sympathy.

Characters in the 'The Archers' have got cowshit and dirt under their finger nails.

Radio listeners may be a better modern analogy for the target of the broadside writers than the tabloids readers.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Aug 18 - 07:47 AM

I'm left with the impression that you don't actually like folk songs
You have little good to say about them
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Aug 18 - 06:52 AM

Are we talking about the same ballad ?
THe father was a miller at the time when tradespeople were replacing the Gentry as leaders of the community
The lover was a herald in the employment of the local lord - a servant (he is referred to as such in the ballad) - he most certainly was not a soldier
If he had been a soldier, the fold tradition proliferated with songs about daughters who run off with soldiers and are pursued by irate parents
You appear not even to have read the text of the ballad
Nice to know that you consider one of the most important and respected ballads in the British canon "daft"
No wonder the broadsides are more to your taste
We appear not even to be excussing the same genre of song
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 21 Aug 18 - 06:39 AM

It's odd because the whole song strikes me as daft. The idea of this psycopathic blacksmith refusing to let his daughter marry one of the gentry (because the Royal Life Guards were drawn from the gentry) because he aspired to marry her to an scion of the nobility.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Aug 18 - 03:15 AM

It doesn't matter how accurate this ballad is in detail - none of in any way contradicts the reason I used it
It is a piece of social history which reflected both the changing society and the effects that those changes were having on individuals and families from the poit of view of those affected - not from the point of view of a sensationalist hack writer
If the events will never be proved - why make an issue of it?

Our songs and ballads are full of details such as this which makes them far more likely to be the products of the people they are about rather than historical versions of our tabloid press.
We have never been trying to "prove" anything; the evidence for doing so is long gone
We are taking all the evidence we have and trying to arrive at a logical conclusion because a few people have chosen to turn past scholarship on its head - as far as I can see, with no grounds whatever for doing so
In order to do that, they have suddenly abandoned any detailed definition of the songs and included all songs - if the folk sang operatic arias, they become folk songs
That is unworkable nonsense

You - nor anybody else, have not attempted to challenge the points of my argument in any way
There is enough insider information in our folk songs to suggest that they came from the people they described - they are three dimensional rather than the flat caricatures and pastiches of the broadsides
They deal with their subject matter with reality and sympathy and their characters smell of tar and cordite and cowshit and have dirt under their fingernails
That is the stuff of our finest researching writers even better - not of provably poor poets wiking to a tight deadline.

It is precisely because of this diversive nit-picking that I see no point in taking this argument song-by-song
For someone who has examined these songs, as a singer or as an interested researcher, the unique reality (not factual detail) is self evident - you really do recognise the genuine article when you see it, even if you have never heard it before
That point has been made to us by every single singer we have interviewed

If you are not going to challenge, or even discuss the main points I have made, they remain as part of the argument to be put against any other that may arise
I don't see too many of them so far

"How do we know"
We don't "know" anything, but it is logical to assume that a body of songs on a theme that has persisted throughout our warlike history and including differing carrying a single piece of information that simply wouldn't make sense otherwise are related to a custom that has persisted for centuries
THe 'broken token' has always been treated as a 'folk motif' in both song and folk tale - there is no reason to challenge that view now, unless someone comes up with new evidence
I see no signs of that - do you?

"demonstrate just how valuable Roud's approach,"
The 'New age' "approach" does away with the need for evidence and reduces it to number-crunched statistics
The people in the songs become one-dimensional creations produced in a hurry - for profit rather than reflections of peoples' lives
That is contrary to every conclusion I have reached over the time I have been involved in folk song
Doesn't work for me, I'm afraid
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 20 Aug 18 - 05:51 PM

Interesting reference: nice to credit the researcher, Amanda Maclean. Folk Music Journal, Vol 11, No 1.

However, Andrew Lambie, or Lamb, of Edinburgh, was 'one of Her Majesty's trumpeters'. He also appears in the records of the Royal Life Guards. In 1684 he was described as trumpeter to a first cousin once removed to the Laird of Fyvie. Apparently he played trumpet at the funeral of the Duchess of Wemys.

It may be that this person was in the mind of whoever wrote the ballad. But there is no evidence that he was actually at Fyvie or that he was accused of witchcraft.

Whether the events described in the ballad ever happened is another thing, something that will never be proved.

But for me, none of this proves that the ballad demonstrates insider knowledge such that it must have been written by a member of the lower orders rather than somebody from another social sphere or, indeed, a ballad writer with some local knowledge. And this what the example was intended to prove.

The castle has reasonable reviews on TripAdvisor.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Aug 18 - 01:12 PM

Incidentally
Got this from ana article in the EFDSS journal indicating that, while some of the facts may be slightly wrong, (poetic licence) the ballads was based on actual characters
Jim Carroll

The enduring popular appeal of the old Scots ballad 'Mill of Tiffs Annie* is due in part to the traditional belief that it tells a true story. Although scant, evidence from previously known sources supports the historical existence of five of the song’s six key characters. The sixth character, the trumpeter Andrew Lammie, has until now been known only from the ballad and its accompanying traditions. Archive documents, however, demonstrate that a man by the name of Andrew Lambie, or Lamb, lived in Scotland throughout the last quarter of the seventeenth century and on into the eighteenth, and that he had the right name, age, profession, and marital status to be the Andrew Lammie of the ballad. Furthermore, he was living in the right place, Edinburgh. But while the historical evidence supports the ballad story in one way, it contradicts it in another, for in most versions the trumpeter dies of grief soon after the death of his sweetheart in 1673. Rather than relating the bare historical facts, this ending can be understood to satisfy an emotional need for both singer and audience.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,jag
Date: 20 Aug 18 - 01:12 PM

How do we know that these multiple 'broken token' songs are evidence of new songs about a common practice rather than borrowings of a theme that makes for a good story.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Aug 18 - 12:55 PM

Stop being boorish - I have not been so to you
For someone who's knowledge of alter Prdon appears to be your dislike of upid the Ploughboy, i find your arguments extremely unreliable (to quote yourself)
We relly do have nothing to say to each other
And you have yet to make a single comment on the rest of my argument
I hope my protestations of being the sole culprit of my implied rudeness isn't falling on deaf eyes - so to speak
Finished with you
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 20 Aug 18 - 12:43 PM

For me, the various comments and suppositions about this song demonstrate just how valuable Roud's approach, with its emphasis on evidence, is.

It is all to easy to jump from 'is believed to be', or 'might be' to 'is'.

Let us take the idea that a statue on one of the finials on Fyvie Castle represents Lammie, a character from the song. I wondered whether this would come up. The idea that it represents Andrew Lammie is complete speculation. Yet on one website, a claim that it represents Andrew Lammie is said to be 'irrefutable evidence' that the story is true.

There are six such statues, and their significance is discussed on page 136/137 of an archaeological report on the castle.

https://www.euppublishing.com/doi/pdfplus/10.3366/arch.2015.0071

Let us take the gravestone of Agnes/Annie Smith: it is hard to find an account of what it says, but no account of it I have found states that she was murdered, the fate provided for her in several versions of the song.

My garden exists, but this does not mean that there are fairies at the bottom of it.

Otherwise, toys, pram etc.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Aug 18 - 11:57 AM

"Mr Carroll "
Again
My unfriendliness was based on being called Agenda driven and untrustworthy
Up to then I had o problem with you
Joe appears not to have notice behaviour like ths from you and others
let it pass

" but there is nothing to prove that this is the case."
THere is everything to suggest it is based on actual facts - the ruins of 'Tifties Mill is a mile or so outside Fyvie, there is a huge stone in the exterior wall of the church mentioning the miller (been there-done that) and locals have uncover a
n cleared a marked grave for the daughter
For a newcomer who refuses to tell us who he/she is or what you've done, your dismissal of other peoples' opinions and knowledge is.... what's the word I'm looking for?
I've researched this ballad as have many others before me
I think we're finished here
JIM CARROLL


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 20 Aug 18 - 11:44 AM

Statue not statute, obviously.
:)


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 20 Aug 18 - 11:36 AM

Mr Carroll is of course free to complain to the moderators about excessive politeness on my part, but he cannot complain that I was addressing him excessively politely, as my post deliberately refrained from addressing him, partly as a result of suppositions to the effect of his unfriendliness.

The idea that the ballad refers to a specific woman appears to have become entrenched in people's minds, but there is nothing to prove that this is the case. The placing of a statute on a nearby castle says a lot more about Scottish romanticism than it does about history.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Aug 18 - 10:04 AM

"Tifty's Annie is Scottish, not English."
So ?
Is it your (or anybody's) argument that it was only the English working people who had to go out and buy their songs rather than make them themselves?
It is not my sole evidence, nor was i=witchcraft my only point - it is part of the reality of the lenghths aa family would go to to prevent his (money in the bank) daughter from marrying out of her class
Taken as a whole, in its way it is a protest at the inhuman effects that such a social system had on many of the families
That fact that the relates relates to real historical figures who are commemorated by a plaque on Fyvie Church wall for the father, a neglected and almost hidden grave for the daughter and a statue of the trumpeting herald on the top of alt least one castle adds to its reality, though, as far as I am aware, there are no written-up accounts of the killing for a hack to draw upon as far as I am aware - it's all in the ballad

There are many dozens of similar songs
Harry Cox once sang 'Betsy the Serving Maid' for Alan Lomax and Ewan MacColl and spat out at the end of it, "And that's what the buggers thought of us"
You can't beat that for an artist's commitment to his art.
Why should a money-making hack care about an insignificant and commonplace event such as this ?
As this seems to be the only point you seem to wish to comment on, I suggest you go back and see if you can come up with some more

"which Mr Carroll"
I choose to be addressed as Jim Carroll (Jim even) - it's supposed to be me who is the unfriendly troublemaker here
Please don't try to unseat me from my position Mr (or Mrs) whatever your name is
Jim


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 20 Aug 18 - 08:57 AM

Tifty's Annie is Scottish, not English.

Having been published several times, it is a case where, as Lloyd comments, broadsides and the oral tradition are as mixed as 'Psyche's seeds.' Robert Jameson (1806) has a version of it taken down from a stall copy. It is sometimes said to be about a real woman who died in the 17th century, but nobody can know this for certain. What seems certain is that the ballad was taken up by Scottish 'romantics' as evidenced in the placing of a statute of one of the characters on the top of a castle nearby.

I cannot let Jim Carroll's analysis of this song pass.

1 If it is intended to support a view that this song is an apt example to answer Richard's request for an example of a song showing expert inside knowledge of life at the bottom, it fails. Witchcraft trials were common knowledge. The comment on 'changing' social structure in the Scotland of the 17th century is for me too vague. Most people have some social knowledge of their country.

2 The most striking thing about this song as 'social history', which Mr Carroll appears to be quite blind to, is that it is about extreme domestic violence.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 20 Aug 18 - 06:54 AM

"All histories are revised by succeeding generations when people ask different questions of the sources"

This is an interesting point. Earlier on I quoted singer and writer Vic Gammon on how pure objectivity is an impossibility and how we always reflect our own context. So I agree broadly with the comment, while also having found Roud's book useful and interesting because of his focus on contemporary sources of information relating to the centuries he discusses. It certainly feels more 'objective' than some work on folklore.

His 'century by century' approach is useful partly because in each chapter you will find evidence of songs which we still know about and can identify being sung in that century. He starts with the 16th century, and provides evidence of people knowing 'Chevy Chase'. He then gives some background of that song. He points out that there is a version written from the Scottish point of view and one written from the English point of view. He says we don't know for certain which version came first.

The sixteenth century chapter has many 'gems', as does the rest of the book. For example, there were attempt to deal with the problem of vagrants roaming the country: you were supposed to stay in your own area, and the laws to deal with this focussed on musicians and singers as well as vagrants generally. (This system lasted a long time: if you were distitute you would get sent back to your 'parish of settlement' so that the ratepayers there carried the expense.) I think people were busking and seen as linked to pickpocketing and so on. And no doubt some were. Musicians (aristocracy apart) had to take care not to fall foul of the laws.

There were several cases of a man who ended up in trouble because he took a job playing the fiddle at a wedding a few miles away from his home.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Aug 18 - 04:00 AM

"Now, please give us some examples of songs where you see internal evidence of familiarity with the lives of the subjects of the songs, familiarity that an urban person writing for the broadside press would be unlikely to possess."
I'll try though I have done this before and you have totally ignored the main bit of my question
Where to begin?

How many of them worked the land to become familiar with the working terms that appear in the songs, the problems of seasonal changes, the pressure of having to pay rent....?
The same with going to sea or to war
How many of them experienced the family life where it is necesary to preserve your good-looking daughter for suitable marriage in order to try and take a tiny step up the social ladder - how many of them experienced the family conflicts that causes?

One of the popular bodies of folk song are the Broken Token songs - I sing a few myself
It always bugged me - how do you break a gold ring or a coin in hald - I've tried it myself - you can't - yet this piece of apparently nonsensical information appears in dozens of songs
When we wre preparing the notes for our Traveller CDs Pat stumbled across 'the gimmel ring tradition'
It was common country practice of a man wishing to get his leg over to prove his fidelity by giving the girl part of a specially manufactured ring on the promise to marry her - it acted as a sealed agreement
The practice existed in Elizabethan times among the wealthy where a ring wa made to be divided in three parts - part for the man, part for the woman and a third part for a witness
It died out sometime in the 18th century among the wealthy, but was continued in the countryside, where you could purchase a cheply made, riveted together double ring which could be scratched in such a way as to identify the two pices as coming from the same source
Even Hardy refers to this obliquely in Far From the Madding Crowd
There's a full description of this in Chambers Book of Days, yet this has never been tied up with the songs - not even by song scholars - it was taken as read by the singers

AS early of the ballad, Tifties Annie, you got oblique references to the effects of a changing society where the power was beginning to pass from the land gentry into the hands of the rising tradesmen - with a few suggestions of the current witchcraft trials thrown in for good measure - a truely remarkable piece of social history
Mnay of the ballads use country commonplaces, vernacular and Popular folklore and superstitions as if it was an everyday part of the maker's life - which it possibly was

All these things were dealt with sympathetically from the point of view of the hard-working and often oppressed ordinary people - lawbreakers included -
Why - were the hacks all early social reformers?
   
Our songs are full of this sort of thing - the camp followers who traisaipsed after the armies during the war - women on board ships - vivid and realistic descriptions of the feelings of farm workers tricked into the army or the navy, the personal effects of the enclosures of country people who relied on common land to feed themselves - even sharp descriptions of transportation, or whaling, or other occupations or occurences that forced them from home

I've argued things like this in detail in the past and been met with nonsensical excuses - the hacks studied the subjects before they wrote them up - they went to sea or worked the land... a whole string of excuses to bend the facts to fit the theory

How did broadside hacks working under pressure become so familiar with vernacular and lore and practices that they could convince the singers from the backgrounds of the songs that ther were "real" or "true" - it takes a skilled novelist to even approach that level of reality and very few of them manage that - John Steinbeck just about managed it inthe US - Robert Tressell did in England - the former spent time with his subjects, the latter was a house painter.

You have not attempted to explain the obvious skill that went into the songs
If the hacks were that good we'd know who they were because the would have had the pride to put their name to their compositions - as it is we know hardly any by name, nor how they went about their work

There is no major plank of ny argument - none of it makes sense, especially how those scholars, from Child onward, many of whom were working at the time the braodside presses were operating managed to be totally ignorant that while they were doing their researching the authors of the songs they were working on were on their doorstep
It is utter and complete nonsense to suggest that a couple of twenty-first century desk-bound researchers researching more than a century later know more than all these people

Once again I have allowed myself to be grilled and once again my main questions have been passed over and ignored
Your turn now
Jim


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,Harry
Date: 20 Aug 18 - 02:54 AM

All histories are revised by succeeding generations when people ask different questions of the sources. For me, Roud's book is a magnificent (revisionist) first step in making folk song studies relevant to the 21st century.

This doesn't negate what has gone before (shoulders of giants, anyone?).

Personally, again, it's the tunes and songs that I find most interesting, for their own sake, and the final sentence in Kathryn Hughes' review in the Guardian (here) sums up my views perfectly:

"These catchy tunes with their satisfyingly repeating choruses . . . . . are part of a landscape that is recognisably communal without being nationalistic. And as for the fact that many of them turn out to be as arriviste as Sharp himself, it’s not clear why it should really matter.".

Harry

P.S. I really enjoyed the book and I'm looking forward to a more leisurely read over the winter.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 19 Aug 18 - 04:41 PM

Jim
> You appear not to be reading anything I write Richard try a couple of postings up

Oops. Mea culpa. I evidently failed to refresh the page before posting.

HOWEVER:
1. Who made our folk songs, what part did the 'folk' play in their making and what are the historical implications of the songs we have up to now described as "folk songs"

That is three questions, and you answered the first one yourself in that same post: "Let's face it - none of us know who made the folk songs - the evidence simply doesn't exist". In fact there is evidence in some cases, but hard evidence not for very many.

What part the 'folk' played varies from: wholly responsible, making the song in the first place, preserving and transmitting it, and possibly changing it (for better or worse); to passively taking up a commercial product and changing it little or not at all. For some songs we can compare the version(s) collected with the first known version and draw some conclusions as to what the folk did with it, but in very few cases can we tell for certain whether the first known version was the original: back to the first question.

Historical implications: again very varied, from eye-witness accounts of battles, through "as I walked out" scenarios that refer to no particular time and place but may illustrate an aspect of social conditions, to ballads set long ago and far away.

2. Is it acceptable to ignore over a century convention of accepting our folk songs as unique by lumping in the products of commercial song making

The distinction is not at all as clear cut as you (and indeed many of us) would like it to be. A few examples have been cited above of songs that were accepted by the old collectors as folk songs but that were definitely the products of commercial song making. You have cited Walter Pardon's distinctions, but as I commented above those seem to have been according to old and not-so-old rather than folk and not-folk.

Anyway I have had a go at answering, and I hope one or two others can also contribute.

Now, please give us some examples of songs where you see internal evidence of familiarity with the lives of the subjects of the songs, familiarity that an urban person writing for the broadside press would be unlikely to possess. That has been a major plank of your argument, so it deserves to be elaborated, even if we can seldom be certain.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 19 Aug 18 - 12:51 PM

Hello, Vic

You make an interesting point.

I hadn't noticed that as a difference between that chapter and the rest of the book. In terms of the 'interview' sources you mention, maybe there simply aren't so many interview sources in the earlier centuries covered by the book.

I agree with you about tbe bibliography, and the index is useful though annoyingly mine has a lot of pages missing starting at about the ltter K. They don't seem to have been ripped out: they seem never to have been there. But I got a refund from the seller (2nd hand) so I can't complain though it is a bit of a nuisance if you are interested in a topic beginning L to Z


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Vic Smith
Date: 19 Aug 18 - 11:55 AM

Pseudonymous wrote:-
"One part of the book that caught my attention was towards the end of the section called Just Before and after the Battle, Mother."


One thing struck me about the forty pages of that chapter that made it different from the rest of the book was the number of quotations that Roud makes in this chapter. There are 22 quotations of song lyrics and 34 of prose comments either from written or transcribed interview sources; all of these are dove-tailed carefully to illustrate or enhance the points that he is making or the activity that he is describing. Perhaps there is more in the literature and in the songs about the lives of soldiers and sailors, but I'd like to know if he was making this chapter different consciously or whether it is just a coincidence. I must try to remember to ask him the next time that I see him.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 19 Aug 18 - 11:16 AM

Vic

One part of the book that caught my attention was towards the end of the section called Just Before and after the Battle, Mother.

This is because one of my grandfathers was a military bandsman, and it would appear from the insignia he is wearing in the sole photo I have of him that he was a band leader. I know he played clarinet and other woodwind. He was in the Boer War and also WWI, as was a son who was killed at Ypres. The family was musical generally, with some playing in dance bands as well as public concerts of military band music.

This was by no means a middle-class family: it seems that the army provided musical training to suitable candidates and that this sometimes served people well after they left the service.

I should make it clear that Roud is not, of course, claiming that military band music was 'folk', but drawing on contemporary sources to give some account of what was sung in those contexts at the time.

Also, I will say that I by no means wish to justify the activities of the British in Africa! But my ancestor was there, and it interested me to read about what his musical experiences there were like.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Aug 18 - 10:58 AM

You appear not to be reading anything I write Richard try a couple of postings up
Jim


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 19 Aug 18 - 10:31 AM

Jim
> Sorry Richard, if you can't be botheerd finding out after my putting them up half a dozen times, I really can't be bothered putting them up yet again

Please don't waste your time restating them at length, but please don't expect me to waste much of mine by ploughing through dozens of your posts, some of them very lengthy, to find the questions that you're concerned about. I have scanned the thread for about the first dozen question marks in posts from you (not counting ones where you were quoting someone else) and some of those were rhetorical.

If you have specific questions that you want answered please either restate them briefly or refer us to the relevant posts. I promise to provide answers if I can.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Vic Smith
Date: 19 Aug 18 - 09:06 AM

In that case, perhaps we can discuss Roud's book?
Now, that would be a really excellent idea! Let's hope that, for a while at least, we can keep the focus on the book itself.
There have been a number of reviews of it that have not been mentioned in the thread with all the other stuff that has been flying about. Now as Steve Gardham has pointed out, the number of people who are qualified to make a full critical assessment of the book are few, so this like one, like some others, reads as a synopsis of the book's contents, but Alex Gallacher's on the website at Folk Radio also makes important points.
I won't reproduce the whole review here as it can be read from the clickable link. The most important point, though Alex is not the only one to make it, is this:-
The book draws and a huge range of sources, the bibliography alone is very extensive. Most importantly, Roud succeeds at furthering our understanding by being objective rather than hindering it as others have maybe done before.

In his Afterword, he notes “As more and more historical sources are digitised and made readily available, we may even be approaching a golden age of folk-song research, if only we have the people to embrace it.”

Folk song research has been bedeviled by the lack of an unbiased clarity of though and approach. It is the fact that Roud assesses the material that arises from his vast amount of research in a way that is objective rather than hindering it as others have maybe done before. that makes the book seem so radical. The way that Roud sees such the possibility of such a positive future for folk-song research is very encouraging.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Aug 18 - 08:31 AM

We have been discussing this book before you arrived and we have continued to discuss its implications since
What you appear to want is for us to pay homage to what I believe to be an excellent but basically flawed book

I shouldn't have reactad to Richard's request as shaply as I did - for which, I apologise
I heve become tired of the lack of response to this question, despite the fact that people apparently regard my opinions important enough to try to trip me up on other issues
I have also become tired of being accused of lying, distorting and insulting by people who have been less that onest and polite themselves
I believe that this whole debate boils to two basic issues
1. Who made our folk songs, what part did the 'folk' play in their making and what are the historical implications of the songs we have up to now described as "folk songs"
2. Is it acceptable to ignore over a century convention of accepting outr folk songs as unique by lumping in the products of commercial song making

The implications of this latter is, if the answer is yes, then we still have a living tradition and everything that is sung at a Karaoke session should have a Roud number.

Richard (sorry again) - this is my point again
Jim

>Let's face it - none of us know who made the folk songs - the evidence simply doesn't exist
At no time has Seve ever been able to produce one of our standard folk songs that he can prove to have originated in print - he has admitted that
So we are faced with two alternatives
On the one hand we have a bunch of bad urban poets working under extreme pressure to satisfy an urban market - despite claims, there is little evidence of how they composed, where they got their information and why they chose the subjects they did and dealt with them in the sympathetic, knowledgeable way they did

On the other you have a section of the population, largely non-literate (recreational reading didn't kick in till the latter half of the 19th century in the towns and in the countryside, very few working people could read fluently until the 1880s (less than one third
They lived in poorly lit, cramped homes and worked extremely long hours, sso the opportunity of learning from the printed word was minimal
Ireland has proved beyond doubt that people not only could make songs by the hundreds but it became a necessity to do so in order to describe what was happening to them
Also, the oral tradition has shown that the singers were capable of taking a song and remaking it into version after version to suit their on backgrounds and circumstances
If people were able to do this, it is far more likely that they made folk songs than the hacks did."


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 19 Aug 18 - 08:04 AM

In that case, perhaps we can discuss Roud's book?


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Aug 18 - 07:45 AM

Sorry Richard, if you can't be botheerd finding out after my putting them up half a dozen times, I really can't be bothered putting them up yet again
Finished here until someone makes an effort to respond
Jim


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 19 Aug 18 - 07:17 AM

This thread remains very active yet makes minimal progress. There is much repetition in different words or even the same words. There is much criticism of others' opinions and, sadly, some personal criticism. None of that gets us any further.

Jim
> None of you are answering my questions yet you keep piling up yours

Please remind us of what specific questions you have asked and not had answered.

As for "piling up" ours; we have repeated one that we really would like you to answer, please nicely.

Fact: we know the authors of a few songs for certain.

Fact: we don't know and probably never will know for certain the authors of most of them.

However, on the basis of internal evidence of style and phraseology some of us believe that the bulk of them (N.B. most, not all) were made by broadside writers (or writers for the stage, the glee clubs and the pleasure gardens). That is not to say that bad poets made good songs. Poets of all sorts made songs of all sorts, most of which deservedly died while some (not always good according to our present-day aesthetics) survived to be collected.

Meanwhile on the basis of internal evidence of first-hand knowledge of the lives of the people that they deal with, Jim believes that a lot of songs were made by those people.

We have asked Jim to expand on that, picking some songs that he believes show such knowledge.

Apropos Child changing or not changing his mind:
Steve
> I'd say including a very large amount of these 'dunghill' pieces was tantamount to changing his mind, wouldn't you?
Jim
> Nope - I certainly wouldn't
He included everything bad and good and didn't let his own prejudices get in the way

He certainly included a much higher proportion of poor quality stuff as time went on. And he never did say much about his criteria for inclusion or exclusion. His statement cited by Steve, (Dover) Volume 5, p182, is as near as we get and does imply that he was deliberately being more inclusive towards the end than he had been earlier.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Aug 18 - 02:31 AM

Now - are any of you going to respond to my points are we going to continue with the one-sided grilling
Jim


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Aug 18 - 02:30 AM

I've just been warned for my over-enthusiastic langage you people, yet you depart with this despicable comment
I hope those in charge are viewing this - I find your behaviour... well, I'm sure you are well used to how I find your behaviour
Jim


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 18 Aug 18 - 03:19 PM

One last thing, Jim, when and if you find it don't forget to flag it up in full or produce a blue clicky. Don't want you up to your old tricks do we?


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Aug 18 - 03:01 PM

"I'm off to Whitby"
Lucky escape eh i I'll keep it warm for you
No problem. I'd say including a very large amount of these 'dunghill' pieces was tantamount to changing his mind, wouldn't you?"
Nope - I certainly wouldn't
He included everything bad and good and didn't let his own prejudices get in the way
What kind of excuse is that for a reasearcher
C'm - on
You should have left yourself the week to think of a better one
Jim


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 18 Aug 18 - 02:50 PM

You've got a week to dig it out, Jim. I'm off to Whitby FF for the week. I doubt I'll be near a computer. I'm relying on you to have provoked another 94 posts before I get back.

Sorry you've become bored, Tzu. I've enjoyed your contributions. Thanks anyway.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 18 Aug 18 - 02:29 PM

Thee can keep whatever file thee larkes: I'm bored with this.

Bye


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 18 Aug 18 - 02:24 PM

Jim
No problem. I'd say including a very large amount of these 'dunghill' pieces was tantamount to changing his mind, wouldn't you?


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Aug 18 - 01:51 PM

No - it was Child
I have quoted your having said it several times - this is the first you've ever denied if
D o I detect the smell of screeching tyres again?
I'll dig it out when I have time - I should be able to find it, it's not far away from your 'seagoing and deeply researching hacks"
I'll have to start keeping a file of all thee excuses
Jim


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 18 Aug 18 - 01:51 PM

Jim,
To be honest I think you must be referring to my statement that Child gradually changed his mind about his all-inclusive policy, especially as he became ill and wanted to spend more time with the family. This culminated in the statement at Volume 5, p182 just before he died. I'm sure I've posted it before here but I'm pretty certain everybody here would have a set. If not I can post it easily. It's not that long. Perhaps you could post it for us?


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 18 Aug 18 - 01:41 PM

1900?


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 18 Aug 18 - 01:40 PM

>>>>you once told me that Child was rethinking his attitude to the broadsides<<<<
That would be Baring Gould, Jim, who did change his mind several times.

The only reference I made to Child's attitude to broadsides is that he used an awful lot of them considering his aversion. Almost all of the Robin Hood ballads for instance.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Aug 18 - 01:20 PM

"Personally, at present, I feel more like parodying Jim Carroll's questions rather than responding to them. "
I'm sure you do - it's far easier than answering them - though your Mona Lisa analogy, if aimed at untalented hacks making our beautifully thoughtful folk songs, is a perfect one - I wish I'd thought of it
The lot of you are running around like headless chickens, which, for me, is indicative that none of you have thought this through
You are very reminiscent of Billy Connolly's old joke "If you want to confuse a policeman ask him a question"
Jim


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 18 Aug 18 - 12:58 PM

The point in respect of Walter Pardon giving different information at different times is that working with tradition bearers is not an unproblematic activity. It isn't intended to be a critisism of Pardon or those enthusiasts who met him and interviewed him.

I find some of his other songs are more enjoyable.

But here, once again, Roud's book is invaluable, with its (or rather Bishop's) discussion of differing aesthetic values.

Personally, at present, I feel more like parodying Jim Carroll's questions rather than responding to them.

"How do you justify your claim that an untalented dauber like da Vinci painted the Mona Lisa?"

But, as will be clear, parody has never been my strong point, so here instead is a link to a page on 'begging the question'.

http://www.txstate.edu/philosophy/resources/fallacy-definitions/Begging-the-Question.html

And an example of question begging from this thread:

"You have never explained how bad poets could possibly have made so many good songs"


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Aug 18 - 11:46 AM

Incidentally Steve, you once told me that Child was rethinking his attitude to the broadsides
Can you link me to that please?
I asked once before but, as with many requests, I received no answer
Jim


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Aug 18 - 11:41 AM

None of you are answering my questions yet you keep piling up yours
Enough is enough eh - how about making this a two way street rather than target practice ?
I'm becoming more and more convinced that your main driving force here is a desire not to believe ordinary people made folk songs - I know no way around suh dedication
Put up or admit that your brand new theory is full of holes and needs to be rethought (or thought through even)
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 18 Aug 18 - 11:22 AM

I previously commented that Walter Pardon's 'Cupid the Ploughboy' did not do anything for me. I have listened to it again, and it still doesn't. In fact, bits of it are wince-inducing.

I also previously stated that Pardon believed that his grandfather had learned his songs from broadsheets.

I was not of course setting myself up as a Walter Pardon expert: I was merely quoting from the MUSTRAD web site. There is an article by Yates and Stradling.

Jim has stated that no broadsheets were found in Walter's house, perhaps using this fact against the broadsheet origins view. I do not think that what was or was not found in Walter's house is relevant.

The grandfather in question was a maternal grandfather, Thomas Cook Gee, who played clarinet, and is said to have had lots of written song material. According to the MUSTRAD articles, Walter said:

"My grandfather got the songs from broadsheets, apparently; that's how they were brought round, so they always told me. He could read music, you see; that was unusual. "

Further on in the pieces, Watler is quoted as saying this:

"My uncle Billy, he said he remembered when a man-o'-war sunk off Ireland and someone composed a song about it, and two men come along here with one of those broadsheets and sung the song over to my grandfather. I don't know if he bought it, but I was told the words and music was ruled on it, and they charged a penny. That was how they got them into the villages. I asked Uncle Billy how it was that my grandfather managed to learn a hundred, 'cause that was very seldom he went out of the village - perhaps one day in the year to Norwich, or occasionally to North Walsham, and he said that was how they got round: by broadsheets."

It was Walter's mother's brother, Billy Gee (1863 - 1942), who is supposed to have taught Walter most of his songs. Billy is said to have spent a lot of time with Walter during the hard times of the 1930s.

However, as the same website says: "Walter said that he'd learned particular songs from various family members - but accounts differ dependent upon who he was talking to and when."


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 18 Aug 18 - 11:15 AM

>>>>I've just counted the ones without tunes based on their non-appearance in Bronson - not as many as even I thought<<<<<

So just out of interest, Jim, out of the 305 how many or what percentage did you think were and what percentage did you find?


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 18 Aug 18 - 11:02 AM

>>>>he had an even lower opinion of the broadsides<<<<

Absolutely. He was finding a few jewels amongst an enormous dungheap. And that's precisely what I have been doing.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Aug 18 - 10:19 AM

I've just counted the ones without tunes based on their non-appearance in Bronson - not as many as even I thought
A tune implies they have probably been sung
I have yet to check the missing ones, but when you consider that a large number of ballad collections that were taken from the mouths of singers do not include tunes, that is going to be reduced even further
Child was working from print, not from the oral traditions - he included very few tunes in his collection, this didn't mean that the published versions weren't collected from country singers
Child did have a low opinion of some of the ballads he included but he had an even lower opinion of the broadsides
He was in a position to know whether these songs originated on the presses just as Sharp did - neither of them ever claimed these songs otr ballads originated on the "dinghill" presses
I assume you have carried out similar research as I have - happy to swap findings

" there is little or no evidence that a substantial proportion of these were in or became part of an oral tradition"
There is none whatever to suggest that any of them originated on the broadside presses - none
Can you point out any that you guarantee originated from the presses - ?Steve has admitted he can't and his theory is just that - a theory
THe same goes for your second point - the period you refer to is marked by a sharp decline in the singing traditions - judging them on that basis is like judging a racehorse after it has been put out to stud
I'm delighted you regard Steve as a scolar, just as I am that you regard me as untrustworthy
I would be very uncomfortable if it were any other way

The most notable thing about this discussion is how you and everybody have totally refused to respond to my comparison between the two contenders for the role of folk composer
I'm sure if it had been possible you'd have hung a bulb of garlic near it in the hope you might drive it away - a pointed stake would be my guess
You people !!!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 18 Aug 18 - 09:39 AM

I said
"Jim, are you really claiming that all (or nearly all) the Child ballads spent some time in oral tradition? "
Jim replied
"I see no reason not to claim that a fair number of them did Richard, do you have any evidence to the contrary?".
and
"Please don't put words in my mouth - I never said "nearly all" - some ballads disappeared anyway, but the majority of them survived in one form or another"

You said that Steve's statement "many of the Child ballads show no or little evidence of ever having been in oral tradition" was "utter nonsense". That implies that, in your opinion, only few were never in oral tradition, i.e. that nearly all were in oral tradition.

Some were widely collected. Some were found in tradition very rarely. Some may well have been sung, and passed from one singer to another, but missed getting collected. But a significant number look as if no-one would ever have sung them.

The Child canon is very diverse. Child himself has been quoted in this thread as having a very low opinion of some of the ballads that he felt he had to include.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 18 Aug 18 - 09:29 AM

Of course, some of Child's sources were 'collectors'.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 18 Aug 18 - 09:21 AM

As I understand it Steve Gardam has made two reasonable claims:

1 In respect of the Child Ballads, there is little or no evidence that a substantial proportion of these were in or became part of an oral tradition. As I understand it, the point is also made that the songs collected by Child were taken from written sources, including manuscript (ie hand-written) versions.

2 A large proportion of songs claimed as 'folk' by Victorian and Edwardian collectors can be traced back to broadsheet versions, where, on the basis of stylistic and other features, they appear to have originated.

I don't find these arguments confusing or contradictory. And nor do I find them refuted by what Jim Carroll has said, or by his anecdotes about the distinctions made by some of his informants.

Mr Gardam sometimes writes as 'Dungbeetle' and on the basis of some of his pieces on the MUSTRAD site (eg Dungheap No 26) I am happy that he is a serious scholar of such matters. I feel it is a shame that inappropriate adjectives such as 'stupid' have been used to describe Mr Gardam.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Vic Smith
Date: 18 Aug 18 - 07:53 AM

I sing a version of Hind Horn. I really love singing it and it is probably the ballad that I sing most frequently It comes from the singing of Joe Estey, of New Brunswick, Canada. The recording shows his singing to be very similar in style to that of Willie Scott with his deliberate timing, clear enunciation and marked emphasis on certain words. Joe Estey was an old woodsman and ballad singer, a veteran of the lumber camps and he was in his late seventies when Sandy Ives (Dr. Edward Ives of the University of Illinois) discovered him and recorded his singing. He also guided Lee Haggerty and Henry Felt, to his home in New Brunswick in 1962. They were on their way back from the Miramichi Folk Music Festival when they called and recorded several songs from Mr. Estey, but this splendid version of Child 17 stood out as the crown jewel of the bunch. It also has a tune that seems ideal to carry the words of this ballad:-


"Where were you bred and where were you born?"
"In dear old Scotland, where I was bred and born.
I am going for to leave you, so, love, do not mourn
Until the day when I do return."

"Here is a ring; I'll give it unto thee
As a token of true friendship given by me.
And when this ring is faded and worn,
You'll know that your true love is with another one. "

For seven long years he sailed o'er the sea;
He sailed and he sailed to a foreign country.
He looked at the ring; it was faded and worn.
He knew that his true love was with another one.

Then he turned, he sailed o 'er the sea;
He sailed and he sailed to his own country.
The first one he met when he came to the land
Was a poor old beggarman.

"Old man, good man, old man," said he,
"What news, what news have you got for me?"
"Bad news, bad news," the old man did say,
"Tomorrow is your true love's wedding day. "

"Then give to me your rags and your shield,
And I'll give to you my coat and my steel. "
"Your coat and your steel is far too good for me,
While an old beggar's clothes is not fit for thee. "

"Let it be right, or let it be wrong,
The old beggar's clothes I will put on.
I will beg from the richest to the poorest in the land;
Take nothing but the best from the young bride's hand.'

So he begged from Peter and he begged from Paul;
He begged from the richest to the poorest of them all.
He begged till he came to his own true love's home.
He stood on the bridge, he leaned against the gate.

Down came the bride, a-tripping down the stairs,
Rings on her fingers and jewelry in her hair.
The glass of wine she held in her hand,
She gave it to the old beggannan.

Out of the tumbler he drank the wine;
Hack in the tumbler he dropped the ring.
She said, "Where did you get it, on sea or on land,
Or did you steal it off some dead man's hand?"

"I did not get it on sea or on land;
Neither did I take it off a dead man's hand.
It's a token of true friendship when we used to court so gay,
And I have returned it all on your wedding day. "

Rings from her fingers she did pull off,
Trinket from her hair she did let fall.
Saying, "Willie, I'll go with you, for now and evermore,
Supposing that we beg from door to door. "

Oh, between the kitchen and the hall,
The old beggar's clothes he did let fall.
His costly garments they shone far above them all.
He was the finest looking young man that stood in the hall

It was early the next morning, just at the break of day,
This couple hastened off to church and made no delay.
It's now they are married, as you may understand.
No more will he be called the old beggarman.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Aug 18 - 05:16 AM

I have to work on the notes Brian - the collector was far from a ballad scholar ot a historian - he was a priest

Hind Horn is a Canadian version, the singer learned it from his Northern Irish mother
It comes with a tune which won't reproduce here
Jim

Hind Horn (Child 17)
OLD BEGGAR MAN.” Taken down from the singing of Mr. Thomas Edward Nelson, Union Mills, New Brunswick, September 28, 1928, who learned it from his mother, who was born in the north of Ireland and died New Brunswick, 1918, aged 85 years. Melody recorded by Mr. George Herzog.

1 “Whence came ye, or from what counteree ?
Whence came ye, or where were you born ?”
“In Ireland I was bred and born
Until I became a hele and his horn.

2 “I gave my love a gay gold watch
That she might rule in her own counteree,
And she gave me a gay gold ring,
And the virtue of this was above all things.

3 “ ‘If this ring bees bright and true,
Be sure your love is true to you;
But if this ring bees pale and wan,
Your true love’s in love with some other man.’ ”

4 He set sail and off went he,
Until that he came to a strange counteree;
He looked at the ring, it was pale and wan,
His true love was in love with some other one.

5 He set sail and back came he,
Until that he came to his own counteree,
And as he was riding along the plain,
Who should he meet but an old beggar man.

6 “What news, what news, you old beggar man ?
What news, what news have you got for me?”
“No news, no news,” said the old beggar man,
“But tomorrow is your true love’s wedding day.”

7 “You lend me your begging rig,
And I’ll lend you my riding stage.”
“Your riding stage ain’t fit for me,
Nor my begging rig ain’t fit for you.”

8 “Whether it be right, or whether it be wrong,
The begging rig they must go on.
So come, tell to me as fast as you can
What’s to be done with the begging rig.”

9 “As you go up to yonder hill,
You may walk as fast as ’tis your will,
And when you come to yonder gate,
You may lean upon your staff with trembling step.

10 “You may beg from Pitt, you may beg from Paul,
You may beg from the highest to the lowest of them all;
But from them all you need take none
Until you come to the bride’s own hand.”

11 She came trembling down the stairs,
Rings on her fingers and gold in her hair,
A glass of wine all in her hand,
Which she gave to the old beggar man.

12 He took the glass and drank the wine,
And in the glass he slipped the ring.
“O, where got you this, by sea or by land,
Or did you get it off a drowned one’s hand?”

13 “Neither got I it by sea or land,
Neither did I get it off a drowned one’s hand;
I got it in my courting gay,
And gave it to my love on her wedding day.”

14 Rings from her fingers she did pull off,
Gold from her hair she did let fall,
Saying, “I’ll go with you forevermore
And beg my bread from door to door.”

15 Between the kitchen and the hall
The diner’s coat he did let fall,
All a-shining in gold amongst them all,
And he was the fairest in the hall.

This is the first time that “Hind Horn” has been recorded in America, and we are particularly fortunate in getting both a good text and the air from the same person. The copy above was taken down, in 1928, by Mrs. Eckstorm, from Mr. Nelson’s singing. We have also another copy, taken down in 1927, by Miss Smyth, from Mr. Nelson’s recitation. There are variations, as would be expected in copies taken by different persons in different years; but they are hardly important enough to warrant printing both texts in full when a collation of the two is simple and satisfactory.
Knowing that this must become the standard text in this country, we have deliberately adopted three variations from the second copy for the A-text, for the sake of the sense. They will be found noted below in the twelfth, thirteenth, and fifteenth stanzas. We see no good reason why the chance variants of the same singer should not be interchangeable, when either the rhythm or the sense of a text is improved by a substitu¬tion. Yet in this ballad, as in others, the texts have been kept separate, except for these three slight changes—“gay” for “day,” “he” for “they,” and a misleading word omitted.

B.
COLLATION of the two texts from Mr. T. E. Nelson, Union Mills, New Brunswick. The following is the spoken 1927 text, compared by stanza and line, with A.

1 Lacks the first line of the 1928 text. Fourth line shows an important variation, commented upon below, of “hind” instead of “hele.”
2 Fourth line reads, “And the virtue of this was above all else.” The rhyme, lost in recitation, is caught again in the ver¬sion sung.
3 Twice “looks” instead of “bees,” as        sung.        This line        was sung several times in catching the air, but always as “bees.”
4 Line two omits “that.” “Countree,” used instead of “coun¬teree,” possibly the transcriber’s variation, was more likely rhythmic, caught in singing. Fourth line reads, “His truelove was in love with some other man.” “Man” and “wan” were rhymed, a possible indica¬tion of the Gaelic origin of “wan,” with this meaning of “pale” (Irish, bán “white”).
5 Line two omits “that.”
6 Line two omits one “what news?”
7 Lines one and two have “lend” instead of “give me your beg¬ging rig.” Lines three and four are transposed.
8 Line two, “it” for “they.” Line three, “quick” for “fast.”
9 Whole stanza lacking in 1927 copy.
10 Line four, “maid’s own hand” instead of “bride’s.”
11 “And in her hand a glass of wine,” missing the rhyme of “han’ ” and “man.”
12 Line three, as printed. What he sang was, “Saying, Where got you this, by sea or by land,” which throws the question to Horn himself and ruins the sense. Ballad singers have a way of introducing a direct quotation with the word “say¬ing,” which very often is spoken, not sung. It takes the place of quotation marks in print and often is a warning of a change of speaker. A transcriber who understands this use would be justified in not recording the word at all unless it is significant and properly used.
13 Line three, as printed in A. He sang “courting day,” which with “wedding day” as a rhyme was unpleasant; but he recited “courting gay.”
14 “No change in this stanza.
15 Line two, as printed in A. He sang it, “The diner’s coat they did let fall,” clearly an error of sense. The most important difference in the texts is the change from “hind” to “hele.” In 1927 Mr. Nelson said:
“Until I became a hind and his horn,” and he pronounced “hind” with a short vowel, just as Mrs. F. W. Morse did in speaking of “Hind Horn”—possibly Irish usage. But in 1928, Mr. Nelson, in singing, repeatedly said “hele,” “hale,” “heel,” or “hael,” or perhaps “heil,” instead of “hind.” His vowel was not clear and we could not determine it; nor could we understand it. But it does not do to worry a ballad singer; what you do not understand, he often does not understand any better.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Brian Peters
Date: 18 Aug 18 - 05:01 AM

Interesting ballad versions Jim, especially Fair Annie, which is a rarity.

The Captain Ward ballad is a bit confused chronologically (as Kennedy suggests), since Ward only took up piracy after James I had revoked his privateer's licence, yet variants of the ballad repeatedly mention 'the Queen'. That Dublin text is similar to the version in Roud & Bishop's 'New Penguin' book, from East Anglia via Butterworth, 1913, with all the same stanzas present but quite a few differences in textual detail.

Intrigued to hear about your Irish - American Hind Horn, too.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Aug 18 - 03:56 AM

Sorry about the last night's late-night typos there - Vic can sort them out
As some of you know, I have been involved in a project gathering Irish versions of Child ballads taken from the oral tradition
So far, I have access to well over 100 ballads and versions, all taken from country singers - so many in fact that I an now serously considering tring to get them published as a collection
If that is not proof that they went into the oral tradition, my Jacks a kipper
Below are two I am hoping to find tunes for - one gathered on the Wexford Coast in the 1940s, the other taken down from the singing of a servant woman at a wake in Wexford about fifteen years after the end of The Famine - more evidence that the ballads made it into the oral tradition
Jim

Fair Eleanor. (Fair Annie Child 62)

“Come, comb your head, Fair Eleanor
And comb it on your knee,
And that you may look maiden-like
Till my return to thee.’

“‘Tis hard for me to look maiden-like,
When maiden I am none :
Seven fair sons I’ve borne to thee,
And the eighth lies in my womb.’

‘Seven long years were past and gone ;
Fair Eleanor thought it long.
She went up into her bower,
With her silver cane in hand.

"She looked far, she looked near,
She looked upon the strand ;
And it’s there she spied King William a-coming,
And his new bride by the hand.

“She then called up her seven sons,
By one, by two, by three;
“I wish that you were seven greyhounds,
This night to worry me! ’

“Oh, say not so our mother dear,
But put on your golden pall,
And go and throw open your wide, wide gates,
And welcome the nobles all”

“ So she threw off her gown of green ;
She put on her golden pall,
She went and threw open her wide, wide gates,
And welcomed the nobles all.

“‘Oh, welcome, lady fair” she said ;
‘You’re welcome to your own ;
And welcome be these nobles all
That come to wait on you home.’

“Oh, thankee, thankee, Fair Eleanor !
And many thanks to thee;
And if in this bower I do remain,
Great gifts I’ll bestow on thee.’

“She served them up, she served them down,
She served them all with wine,
But still she drank of the clear spring water,
To keep her colour fine.

“She served them up, she served them down,
She served them in the hall,
But still she wiped off the salt, salt tears,
As they from her did fall.

“Well bespoke the bride so gay,
As she sat in bar chair—
‘And tell to me, King William,’ she said,
‘Who is this maid so fair ?

“‘la she of your kith, ’ she said,
‘ Or is she of your kin,
Or is she your comely housekeeper
That walks both out and in 1 ’

“‘She is not of my kith,’ he said,
Nor is she of my kin ;
But she is my comely housekeeper
That walks both out and in.’

Who then was your father,’ she said,
Or who then was your mother ?
Had you any sister dear,
Or had you any brother“

“‘King Henry was my father,’ she said,
Queen Margaret was my mother,
Matilda was my sister dear,
Lord Thomas was my brother.’

'King Henry was your father,’ she said,
Queen Margaret, your mother,
I am your only sister dear,
And here’s Lord Thomas, our brother.

“'Seven lofty ships I have at sea,
All filled with beaten gold ;
Six of them I’ll leave with thee,
The seventh will bear me home.’ ”

This text was in included in Patrick Kennedy’s Banks of the Borough, (Dublin 1875), where he describes his hearing it sung at a Wake in Wexford.

“Mr. Redmond, having now a right to call, summoned Joanna, the servant maid,before mentioned, to show what she could do. Joanna, though very ready with her tongue at home, was at heart a modest girl, and fought hard to be let off. But one pro¬tested that she was a good singer, in right of a lark’s heel she had (this was not the case, Joanna had a neat foot) ; another, that she was learned to sing by note when Tench, the dancing-master made his last round through the country; another, that he heard herself and a young kid sing verse about one day when nobody was within hearing. So poor Joan, to get rid of the torment, asked what sort of song should she sing, and a dozen voices requested a love song about murder. So after looking down, with a blush¬ing face, for a while, she began with an unsteady voice, but she was soon under the influence of the subject-lay, and sung with a sweet voice one of these old English ballads, which we heard for the first time from a young woman of the Barony of Bargy, in the south.
There is one on the same subject in some collection which we cannot at this moment particularize; but the Wex¬ford vocalists never got their copy from a printed book. Joanna’s version is evidently a faulty one. It has suffered from transmission through generations of negligent vocal¬ists. It is not an easy matter to tag the subject on to any decided point in the reigns of the kings of England.
“There is one on the same subject in some collection which we cannot at this moment particularize, but the Wex¬ford vocalists never got their copy from a printed book. Joanna’s version is evidently a faulty one. It has suffered from transmission through generations of negligent vocalists. It is not an easy matter to tag the subject on to any decided point in the reigns of the kings of England.”

Captain Ward and the Rainbow (Saucy Ward) Child 287
Come all you valiant heroes, you heroes stout and bold:
I’ll tell you of a rover who all the seas controlled.
I’ll tell you of a rover who seldom did appear,
And no one such a rover met this many a day and year.

He wrote our queen a letter on the seventh of January,
To know if he’d go over Ould England for to see;
To know if he’d go over. Ould England to behold,
And for his pardon he would give five hundred tons of gold.

“Oh nay, Oh nay,” our queen replied, “sure that could never be;
To yield to such a rover with me would never agree.
Since he deceived the Queen o’Scots, likewide the Queen o’ Spain,
Oh, how could he prove true to me who proved so false to them.”

His daily occupation was to plunder on the sea,
And he met one of the Queen’s fine ships just at the break o’ day.
She was loaded with silk and satin, a cargo of great fame.
He robbed her of her wealth and store and sent her home again.

Our Queen prepared and built a ship, a ship of noble fame,—
The Rainbow did we call her, you all may know her name.
The Rainbow did we call her, and off to sea goes she,
With five hundred seamen stout and bold to be her company.

We sailed away till we sailed to the spot where Saucy Ward did lie.
“Where is the commander of your ship,” our captain he did cry.
“I’m here, I’m here,” cried Saucy Ward, “my name I’ll never deny;
If she be one of the Queen’s fine ships she’s welcome to pass me by.”

“Oh nay, Oh nay,” our captain cried, “it grieves my heart full sore,
To see our merchant ships can’t trade as they have done before.”
“Fight on, fight on!” cried Saucy Ward, “I value you not a pin,
For if you have got men aboard I’ve powder and ball within.”

At eight o’clock in the morning they began this bloody fray:
It held from that very moment until the same hour next day.
“Fight on, fight on!” cried Saucy Ward, “your fighting it pleases me,
For if you fight for a month or more your master I will be.”

At last the good ship Rainbow tacks; she fires and strikes in vain:
Three hundred of her seamen bold dead on her deck were lain.
“Go home, go home,” cried Saucy Ward, “and tell your oul’ queen from me
That if she rules queen of foreign lands, I rule king of the sea.”

Taken down from Tom Maddock, May 31st, 1943. This is a very old English ballad. Cf. “A famous Sea Fight between Captain Ward and the “Rainbow,” in Legendary ballads of England and Scotland. Ed., J. S. Roberts.
In one of the English versions of this ballad there is reference to two of the queen’s sea-captains, Clifford and Essex.
Clifford would be George, 3rd Earl of Cumberland, who commanded the “Bonaventure” against the Spanish Armada in 1588, and Essex would be the ill-fated Robert Devereux, 2nd Earl of Essex, a kinsman of the Devereux family of Ballymagir, Co. Wexford. The queen referred to is Queen Elizabeth, but I have been unable to find out who was the impudent individual with the Irish name.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Aug 18 - 09:31 PM

"Jim, are you really claiming that all (or nearly all) the Child ballads spent some time in oral tradition? "
I see no reason not to claim that a fair number of them did Richard, do you have any evidence to the contrary?
I have been putting together a file of Child ballads in Ireland and decided to look up ones that made it to America
I have in the past week found Hind Horn, Famous Flower of Serving Men, Queen Eleanor's Confession, Bailiff's Daughter of Islington, Young Hunting, THe Two Magicians and The Two Sisters, all of which were got from singers who went to Ameriica just after the Famine and who had learned them in Ireland from old people who had learned them before Child put together his collection.

Sam Larner learned Henry Martin from Henry Sutton 'OLd Larpin' as a young man at the end of the 19th century - Sutton was said to have had it from his youth - you work it out

Thomas Moran, who probably had the largest repertoire of Child Ballads in Ireland, sang his ballads for the BBC in the early 1950s - he told the collector he had learned them in his youth from an "old, old man who had never crossed a cow-track" (never left his village)

Martin Howley gave us the only version of 'Sweet William and Lady Margaret' collected in Ireland - he learned it at the turn of the century from a non-literate old travelling woman

Non-literate Travellers we have recorded all got their ballads from old people who like them, couldn't read, some of whom had learned them in the 1860s

The non literate Scots Travellers have been the greatest source of Child Ballads - all recorded around the 1950s and 60s and all said to having been passed no by parents and grandparents

It is true that some ballads were never found but when you consider that collecting was never embarked on seriously until the early 1900s when the otral traditions were in sharp decline, it is hardly surprising
Go look at the Greig collection and see how many where
I have yet to explore the Carpenter collection fully, but considering when it was made he would have been ballads learned long before Child put his collection together

Please don't put words in my mouth - I never said "nearly all" - some ballads disappeared anyway, but the majority of them survived in one form or another

THere is strong evidence of Ballads having a strong presence in a largely non-literate oral tradition as far back as you can go

I get tired of this
When Steve first made his statement it was contemptuous dismissal of the idea that the folk made folk songs "starry -eyed naivety" was the term used I think - this included the earliest referenced folk song 'The Frog and the Mouse'
When he was challenged, he hastily withdrew to 'the songs that Sharp et-al collected and said several times that he had always claimed this and that I was "misrepresenting what he said"
Now we have leapt back a couple of centuries with a claim that ballads hardly appeared in the oral tradition
It's becoming extremely difficult to follow exactly what Steve is claiming.

Lett's face it - none of us know who made the folk songs - the evidence simply doesn't exist
At no time has Seve ever been able to produce one of our standard folk songs that he can prove to have originated in print - he has admitted that
So we are faced with two alternatives
On the one hand we have a bunch of bad urban poets working under extreme pressure to satisfy an urban market - despite claims, there is little evidence of how they composed, where they got their information and why they chose the subjects they did and dealt with them in the sympathetic, knowledgeable way they did

On the other you have a section of the population, largely non-literate (recreational reading didn't kick in till the latter half of the 19th century in the towns and in the countryside, very few working people could read fluently until the 1880s (less than one third
They lived in poorly lit, cramped homes and worked extremely long hours, sso the opportunity of learning from the printed word was minimal
Ireland has proved beyond doubt that people not only could make songs by the hundreds but it became a necessity to do so in order to describe what was happening to them
Also, the oral tradition has shown that the singers were capable of taking a song and remaking it into version after version to suit their on backgrounds and circumstances
If people were able to do this, it is far moreJim, are you really claiming that all (or nearly all) the Child ballads spent some time in oral tradition? likely that they made folk songs than the hacks did.

Steve appears to object to me tne, yet I am saying far less than he and others have accused me of - a accuse him of having an agenda - he and others have accused me of just this

I have made a point of answering every one of your questions - you have responded to hardly any of mine (I don't count pointing out typos or obvious errors responses)

“I've long been aware of Walter's tendency to drift slightly sharp or lose pitch during the course of some songs”
Most unaccompanied singers rise in the course of a song, especially the long ones
Jim


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 17 Aug 18 - 05:06 PM

Steve
> For instance many of the Child ballads show no or little evidence of ever having been in oral tradition.

Jim
>Utter nonsense

Jim, are you really claiming that all (or nearly all) the Child ballads spent some time in oral tradition? Some of them are as unsingable as a lot of the broadsides that you complain about.

I am getting increasingly frustrated by your arguing vociferously against statements that no-one has actually made and avoiding answering some very specific questions that have been asked.

We accept that Walter Pardon distinguished different sorts of songs in his repertoire, though his words that you have quoted seem to focus mainly on whether a given song was old or not so old rather than where it originated. But you have been asked to explain where some of them (whichever of them you choose) show evidence of having been written by the people whose lives they deal with, rather than by the "hacks" or whatever we call them for whom making songs was their livelihood or a substantial part of it. Can you provide that evidence?

N.B We are not disputing that ordinary people could and did write songs. What we are asking you for is evidence of who wrote the songs that were collected and that the traditional singers sang. If it's clear to you who wrote them you should be able to explain it.

While I'm about it (having been off the Mudcat for a few days):

Steve
> Walter was very different in that he was a source singer who had retained the songs from his own family and became something of a celebrity in the 60s as there weren't many source singers left who had a reasonable repertoire.

Jim
> I find this incredibly derogatory

How on earth is it derogatory to point out how unusual and important Walter Pardon was as a singer?


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Brian Peters
Date: 17 Aug 18 - 04:21 PM

many of the Child ballads show no or little evidence of ever having been in oral tradition.

I wouldn't have thought this statement controversial, looking at all 305 titles and comparing those with the significant number that Bronson failed to find any tune for, or for which Child himself cited no examples from oral tradition.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 17 Aug 18 - 04:08 PM

Sorry, Brian
I knew what Joe had done. I was simply attracting his attention to the abuse. Thank you for your kind defence. Of course I am a great admirer of Walter's music.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Vic Smith
Date: 17 Aug 18 - 04:07 PM

I think he may have managed it this time. It's a pity.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Brian Peters
Date: 17 Aug 18 - 04:04 PM

Joe Offer, 16 Aug, 03:27 AM.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 17 Aug 18 - 03:51 PM

Joe?


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Brian Peters
Date: 17 Aug 18 - 03:40 PM

I can't keep up with this thread any more, but many thanks to Joe for putting Jim's two pieces on Walter Pardon somewhere I could download them. Fascinating and thorough - and I don't get any hint of the interviewer 'leading' the interviewee.

I've long been aware of Walter's tendency to drift slightly sharp during the course of some songs, but that doesn't make him any less wonderful a singer. I took Steve's earlier comment about the dearth of other 'source singers' around at the time WP came to our attention to mean that no-one was really expecting to find any more significant traditional singers at all by that time - let alone one this good with such a large and high-quality repertoire.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Aug 18 - 03:16 PM

"For instance many of the Child ballads show no or little evidence of ever having been in oral tradition."
Utter nonsense
THe most important repository of ballads in Britain and Ireland was the non-literate Travelling people
Burns gathered ballads, Maidment gathered ballads Buchan Gathered ballads
The Buchan controversy cebrted around what he did with the ballads he collected, now whether he wrote them
Now you're being spiteful stupid
This now becomes a vicious attempt to ednigrate the oral tradition
Next to you "all folk tales, music and dance educated sources.
And you accuse me of having an agenda

Please don't tell me I'm confused after you,ve just claimed this outrageous rubbish
Your agenda-driven shoddy scholarship becomes tiresome
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 17 Aug 18 - 02:56 PM

I think we're playing quite nicely in debating the content of Steve's book and most of what is being posted is very relevant. The only exasperating part for me is when we have to keep repeating the same things over and over ad nauseam because someone has misrepresented what we have said.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 17 Aug 18 - 02:46 PM

Hello Steve

Could we clarify for anybody who stumbles across this thread that 'Roud numbers' as mentioned in a post of 12.51 correspond to songs found and indexed by Roud, and that one use of the indexes is to trace 'appearances' of the song in question, whether this be in an anthology or elsewhere.

Roud's book includes references to many such songs, so interested readers can look at VWML.org for further information.

So for me it is interesting to know that the Gilded Cage song was 'col
lected' in Sheffield in 1972.

I quite enjoyed it when Roud cited some contemporary witness relating to the music made and enjoyed by ordinary people in the past and cited a Roud number, leading to the indexes for those interested.

Personally, I am trying to avoid going 'round and round', however much it supports the sales of Roud's book!


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 17 Aug 18 - 01:44 PM

Regarding Steve's extremely useful indexes. Professor Child tried to be inclusive and as he himself stated 'included a whole lot of material that was there beyond his better judgment. (For instance many of the Child ballads show no or little evidence of ever having been in oral tradition.) Likewise, Steve's indexes are inclusive. They include all songs that exist in the anthologies he has included. Had they been exclusive he would have had to spend a lot more time making arbitrary decisions which everyone would be able to disagree with. As it is thankfully YOU are the only one complaining.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 17 Aug 18 - 01:38 PM

Jim,
I'm so sorry but your statements are becoming more and more confused. You change tack mid-sentence, you give attributes to the 54 definition that are actually not there. The origins of the songs are TOTALLY irrelevant to whether they are folk songs or not. Please go back and read the 54 descriptors again.

As I've told you before on many occasions, when the 54 descriptors first were put out for discussion, one of the descriptors WAS that the songs had to be anonymous. That was immediately shot down in flames and quietly dropped when the final list was published.


You keep jumping from 'origins' to what is accepted as 'folk song' by the 54 descriptors. There are NO finite boundaries as with all other genres. The descriptors are there as guide lines. Any given song might comply with 2 of the descriptors and not meet one of the others. It really isn't cut and dried, but hey.....we've said all this before.... round and round and round and round...…..


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Aug 18 - 01:20 PM

The people's flag is deepest pink,
It's not as red as you might think,
Those socialists, they keep their wealth,
New Labour contradicts itself.

Then raise the salmon standard high.
Under it they'll watch us die,
Though Lib Dems flinch and Tories sneer,
We'll keep the pink flag flying here.

Look round, the Welshman loves its blaze,
The American chants its praise,
In Scotland's hills its hymns are sung
And Cardiff swells the surging throng.

It waved above our cow'ring fright,
When all our hopes were bathed in light;
Though Tony kicks up quite a row,
He's better than that Thatcher cow.

It well recalls the triumphs past,
It dashed the hope of peace at last;
They can't see the wood for the trees,
They search for WMDs.

It suits today the weak and base,
Whose minds are fixed on pelf and place
To cringe before the rich man's frown,
And haul the sacred emblem down.

With heads all covered swear we all
To put it down now lest we fall;
Come dungeons dark or threat of death,
We'll hum this underneath our breath.
Jim, thought you might like the above


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Aug 18 - 12:51 PM

"fascinating social history of the music made and enjoyed by working people "
I thought they were made by the broadside hacks - you need to tell Steve they were "made by the people"
You need to tell Arthur J. Lamb and Harry Von Tilzer that 'Bird in a Gilded Cage' was made by the people too - it's got a Roud number
Jim


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Aug 18 - 12:47 PM

"Red Flag uses a folk tune, so why are the lyrics not a Folk Song"
Known author, established and unchanged text, no indications it passed into the oral tradition, has never been accepted as a 'folk song' - no more traditional than Happy Birthday to you' or 'God Save the Queen' or 'The lord's Prayer' or 23 Psalm - all sung regularly
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 17 Aug 18 - 11:24 AM

Readers of Roud's fascinating social history of the music made and enjoyed by working people will be able to judge for themselves, by reading the opening chapters, whether the way Roud's definition of folk music is sometimes represented on this thread is accurate.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,Red Rebel
Date: 17 Aug 18 - 11:19 AM

Red Flag uses a folk tune, so why are the lyrics not a Folk Song


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Aug 18 - 11:13 AM

Which of course doesn't answer any of the quesions the book raises or solve any of the problems - the main one being that Roud's definition has no valadity until it has become generally accepted
Roud's definition is diametrically opposite to the'54 one which set out to define the unique nature of folk song - Roud removes that uniqueness.
The book is fascinating but it is not a social history of folk music
Assigning the making of the songs to the broadside presses is equivalent to assigning British Social History to the Daily Mail or The Sun
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 17 Aug 18 - 10:55 AM

Readers of Roud's fascinating social history of the music made and enjoyed by working people will be able to judge for themselves, by reading the opening chapters, whether the way Roud's view of folk music is sometimes represented on this thread is accurate.

There they will find not just the 1954 definition that is sometimes referred to but also an account of some of the different views of what folk music is that have been forward over the years.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Aug 18 - 10:04 AM

Incidently
" And he does so in tones which, for me, tend to belittle the tastes of our ancestors"
The greatest belittling of our ancestors is to suggest, as you (and far too many others) do is to suggest they are not intelligent enough to distinguish one type of song from another
Since when has defining something had anything to do with "taste" - you can't like a definition into existence - a thing is what it is
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Aug 18 - 09:14 AM

"a full picture as opposed to a limited selective one that Jim Carroll objects to it."
I don't particularly want to ener into a debate with you, given your somewhat unacceptable attitude to traditional singers (despite this somewhat contradictory accusation "tend to belittle the tastes of our ancestors ") but if you are going to quote me, please do so correctly
It is not "my limited selective" definition
Up to the publication of Roud's book, it was more or less everbody's view
THere was no question of lumping together all popular songs that were sung by the people as folk songs - that is Steve Roud's "limited view, which has apparently struck a chord with those who want to believe that the folk didn't discriminate between their genres of song
The folk song revival in Britain ran for decades on a "limited view" of what was meant by the term "folk song", magazines were filled with it, record companies like Topic and Folkways issued recordings of it and we had over a centuries worth of researched literature to back up that choice

We have always had a definition, as flawed as it may have been - that definition was arrived at by an international group working in a specific field of song and music which they termed folk music
THat definition has acted as a rule of thumb right up to this year when a single researcher decided to abandon it and make up his own, apparently without consultation - that definition has been accepted by those here, apparently without being prepared to discuss it's implications
Roud hasn't adapted a definition - he has turned it on its head and lumped all popular songs together in to one incomprehensible, unworkable mass
He has made his own selection of what is a folk song - certainly ont all the songs the folk sang are in his index - how could they be?
On the other hand, why aren't they?
This is the great contradiction of Roud's definition - who decides what is a folk song and who doesn't
I don't see 'You'll Never Walk Alone' with a Roud Number - why - it has been sung widely since Liverpool fans adapted it as their anthem?
Can we look forward to 'The Birdie Song' or 'Viva Espana' being given one - again, if not, why not.
I read Bert Lloyd's book shortly after it was published and it inspired to lift the corner and look underneath - that inspiration has lasted me most of my life
Roud's book, as impressive as it is as a history of popular song, fills me with sense of deep despair and makes me glad I am no longer part of the English scene
Llod's book finished with the statement nobody appears to be prepared to face head-on

"If 'Little Boxes' and 'The Red Flag' are folk songs. we need a new term to describe 'The Outlandish Knight'. Searching for Lambs' and 'The Coal-owner and the Pitman's Wife'.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 17 Aug 18 - 08:32 AM

Hello Jag

Thanks for your comments and clarification.

Just to clarify.

I wasn't really referring to your last post, but to a conversation a bit earlier and of course I was as much thinking about occupations of men as anybody else was, so I was including myself in the comment.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,jag
Date: 17 Aug 18 - 08:19 AM

I was being inclusive of women and exclusive of the bourgoisie over the bawdy songs.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 17 Aug 18 - 07:32 AM

It's interesting that Jag says 'working men and women' since our most recent discussion of occupations which might count as 'folk' and which were too far up the social scale was mostly a list of male occupations.

For me there is a lot in what Jag says in his post of 4.38, though I think that one has to add ideology to the causes of attraction. In saying this I don't seek to denegrate left-wing beliefs, as I would situate myself on some sort of left/green position, merely to point out that these beliefs may lead to selective vision on occasion. Consciously or unconsciously.

I know Roud does provide examples of pub singing in the olden days based on contemporary accounts. I'll check the reference for this.

There was a post raising the question of group as opposed to individual singing earlier in this thread, and I had hoped that the discussion would contintue but the thread got lost in the cross fire and I could not find it.

On work songs, I was looking recently at a picture of a weaver with a broadsheet pinned to his loom. It might have been in Palmer's book of history through broadsheets. But the chap seems to have been working more or less alone.

Work songs like chanties were group affairs, but there are already several threads on these.

But generally, it is precisely because Roud does give pictures of what working people through the ages did actually listen to and sing, a full picture as opposed to a limited selective one that Jim Carroll objects to it. And he does so in tones which, for me, tend to belittle the tastes of our ancestors (but not his, as he would appear to identify as Irish).


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,jag
Date: 17 Aug 18 - 04:23 AM

Thanks Steve for the comments on my "something that most people could remember and join in with".

One thing I was pondering was collection bias making it difficult to test ideas about the style of the text and the tunes.

However, I am coming to realise that the 'folk song' that is the subject of this discussion, to a large extent of the Roud's book, and the interest of collectors referred to here is only a subset of what the folk sang and what was revived in the last 50 years.

The 'argument' here is about narrative verse sung mainly by (and collected from) solo singers.

It's not about things like wassailing, the singing of local carols, work songs, chorus songs sung in the pub or the bawdy songs of the working men and women.

The disagreements here are mainly about a subset of the genre which tends to attract people's romantic sensibilities.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Aug 18 - 03:12 AM

"They just know that they are not attacks. "
That's why you responded and explained - of course is it!!
The silent acquiescence to of your behavior has convinced me that Limerick is a far better resting place for Walter than anywhere in the UK
At least here traditional singers and what they had to say are respected

Your theory is based on the denigration of everything that has gone before - from Child (who can't tell the difference between art and folk poetry, right through to our last big traditional singer.
No wonder traditional song is where it is
You really should be ashamed of yourseves
Jim


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 17 Aug 18 - 02:35 AM

Two posts disappeared? Moderated?

Interesting . . . . . I'll try to be more vitriolic so that I meet the criteria of the thread.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 16 Aug 18 - 04:42 PM

Vic

Yes, it was the discography on Mainly Norfolk. I liked the way you could click through to the full details of each disc, and then for many of the tracks to more information about each song.

Tzu


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 16 Aug 18 - 04:27 PM

Thanks for that reminder, Derek. I personally think this thread has been an excellent advert for the book. The content has been hotly debated and it has encouraged not a few to buy and read it. This is mainly thanks to Jim.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 16 Aug 18 - 04:22 PM

Heat and light often go together, Derek.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,Derek Schofield
Date: 16 Aug 18 - 04:21 PM

We are just about at the 12 month anniversary of the start of this thread. And of course 12 months since Steve Rouds book (remember that?) was published. Plenty of heat since then. How much light?

Derek


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 16 Aug 18 - 04:14 PM

Whilst these interviews with source singers are very valuable and interesting in a number of ways they can only give us a small amount of information regarding the origins and evolution of the songs. Of course differentiating between different genre types would be quite easy as it is for all of us by and large. The vast majority of Music Hall songs are easily distinguished from the ballads both in structure, musical style, even content, but a surprising number did slip through the net set up by the early collectors. The collectors also tended to include quite a lot of pieces that were obviously products of the eighteenth century theatre, though happily very few of Dibdin's got through; too well-known I suppose. I had 2 source singers who happily sang me Tom Bowling and I know people even alive today who love the song despite it being an art song of over 2 centuries ago.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 16 Aug 18 - 03:46 PM

Vic,
I'm pretty certain Rod would be pleased to accept the outstanding ones.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Vic Smith
Date: 16 Aug 18 - 03:29 PM

Hootenanny's question -
Which other English singers did you interview in such depth?
was not directed at me, but I thought when reading it was that there must be many interview transcriptions on the Musical Traditions website with English singers.
Actually there were far fewer than I thought that there would be, though there are plenty of articles about them and many complete booklets of MT CD releases, but the singers in their own words - not so many. Nevertheless, I thought that I make a clickable list of them. I was very surprised to see that the majority of interviews had been conducted by myself. The first, clickable, name is that of the interviewee and the second name, the interviewer:-

Scan Tester by Rod & Danny Stradling
Sophie Legg by Vic Legg
Gordon Hall by Vic Smith
Johnny Doughty by Vic Smith
Bob Copper by Vic Smith
Reg Hall on Scan Tester by Vic Smith
Bob Lewis by Vic Smith
Tom Brown by Chris Holderness

Now, there ought to be at least another one because my interview with Scan Tester appeared in the paper edition of Traditional Music (No. 4 Mid-1976) . I thought that Rod had digitised all the relevant items for the MT website. However, that interview is available on the web as I made a .pdf facsimile of it for the Sussex Traditions database and you can read it by clicking here.
Looking back at all these interview transcription only serves to make me feel guilty about all the interviews that I made that are waiting for transcription, George Belton, George Spicer, his son Ron though all of these are shorter than those available on the web. This is not to mention the one with Scots traveller singers and musicians and even more with West African Manding Jalis. It's not as if I am not keeping myself busy!


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 16 Aug 18 - 03:20 PM

Of course they care. They just know that they are not attacks. This is in your own mind and nowhere else. Read my post of 10.58 please.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Aug 18 - 03:17 PM

Tried to post earlier
I apologise Steve - I did confuse posters - I should have recognised the style
I still find your previous attacks on Walter and your refusal to apologise unacceptable, but the time it wasn't you
I also find your reducing me to a collector patronising but as you did that with Sharp, I find myself in good company - I know I'm wasting my time where I have been "confused before' - it will probably end up in the same atray as similar requests for examples of insulting people
The silence of acquiescence remains a problem - does no-one care about attacks on one of our best field singers?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 16 Aug 18 - 02:45 PM

'Is there no-one you respect?' I respect you, Jim, as a folksong collector.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 16 Aug 18 - 02:38 PM

I think you're getting confused again, Jim. You seem to be aiming that last post at me, but I don't remember saying the things you've accused me of. Perhaps it's me that's confused. None of us getting any younger!


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Aug 18 - 01:58 PM

"It makes me reluctant to accept what he says about the words at face value."
Ah well - you makwe a mistake and you know nothing of your own tradition
The logic of modern scholarship I suppose
Your theory is built on the corpses of the work of everybody else's Steve - now that's what I call academic arrogance big-time
Walter used the melodeon ads a guide and that's the way it worked for him
I think if Mike were here he would be able ytto confirm that in most cases Walter was right, even though he was not a particularly skilled player
Mike discussed this with him and told him he was wrong atout 'Black-Eyed Susan' which he took with good grace (far more so than is being displayed here, I might add)
I nfind my feeling towards your 'scholarship' shifting from disagreement to one of nausea
Is there no-one you respect?
In different circumstances and with a more level playing-field of open minds, I do believe you would be doing my job for me
I find the silence from others on your attacks on an important traditional singer and a century of researchers almost as depressing as the attacks themselves
Where's the bucket?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 16 Aug 18 - 01:21 PM

Jag wrote:

"If you want some academic arrogance then I will say that Walter Pardon's view about the tunes (melodeon bellows etc) lacks rigour and displays a flaw in logic worthy of a simple country man. It makes me reluctant to accept what he says about the words at face value.

That said, I hope people regard the interview as a valuable record of the views he came to base on his experience and knowledge of the past. Not to take it into account in a scholarly study would be remiss but to base a critique of a book on it is unconvincing."

I agree with this, with the minor proviso that the interview, the provenance of which I am hazy about, and here I do not intend to insult or upset anybody, accurately represents what Pardon said, which it probably does. The reported comments also did show, I thought, how somebody without explicit musical knowledge might respond to the differences in "mode" to which they had a sensitivity.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Vic Smith
Date: 16 Aug 18 - 01:13 PM

Pseudonymous
Did you mean this illustrated discography of WB or was there something else on Mainly Norfolk? If there is I cannot find it.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Aug 18 - 01:04 PM

"Which other English singers did you interview in such depth?"
We met friend and a relative of Sam Larner and recorded a nephew and his wife, that was it really
As far as I know, very little work was done with any of our big traditional singers or if it was, it was never made public
I know my friend Bob Thomson spent time with Harry Cox shortly before hi dies - we have the recordings, which were basically Bob going over Harry's repertoire to find if he could add to to.
EWan, Peggy and Charles Parker recorded hours of talk from Sam Larner, largely for the Radio Ballad - we have those recordings in our archive.
We have actuality from the miners, mainly from The Elliots for 'The Big Hewer'
Ewan and Lomax interviewed Harry Cox at length - we have that   
None of the interviewers asked the questions we would have asked - it was frustrating to listen to them

We did some work with Duncan Williamson, but he was so intent on singing during the couple of times we visited him that is was virtually impossible to get him to talk

For me the greatest missed opportunity was the Jeannie Robertson book
Herschel Gower did a magnificent job of presenting her background but the analysis of the songs wa done by James Porter - as far as I can remember, there was very little input from Jeannie.

I've often wondered if the collectors on the BBC project ever recorded more than the songs - that would have been the last big opportunity to fill in the gap in our knowledge

I see little if any difference between the background of the English and Irish rural people to make a huge difference, except that they and the Travellers were far closer to a living tradition, which, to my mind, gives us a clearer picture how how one worked.
THere we got accounts of singing songs, how they were learned, how they were regarded, in the communities and by the individual communitiies

We also recorded details of the 'ballad selling trade, from a singer from a singing'storytelling family/including the mechanics of a non-literate Traveller putting his family's songs into print and the skill of selling them on the streets and in the pubs.

One of the most relevant to this argument was the making of songs to suit the events, as they happened.

I have no problem with the idea that we were dealing with an almost dead tradition here as newbies
I have always been grateful for my time at The Spinners Club, but I really was on may way out of the scene when I happened to hear Ewan and Peg and 'was smitten'
THye have been a major influence to my thinking ever since
Jim
By the way, Walter told us that he remembered hearing about the time the BBC visited hi local town, North Walsham - unfortunately they didn't make it out to Knapton


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 16 Aug 18 - 12:56 PM

Vic

Thanks for the links to the MUSTRAD articles, and the background. I agree that this is a fascinating site. I've read with interest a number of articles on it.

I tried twice yesterday to post links to these and also to the Mainly Norfolk site which has something on Pardon, but for some reason the posts did not take and I gave up.

Generally speaking:

I am quite happy that a suggestion that a historical source may not be reliable because of ideological bias (which is a basic GCSE History point) is quite distinct from personal abuse of that source.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 16 Aug 18 - 12:24 PM

Jim,

Could I ask a simple question? You knew Walter very well and you keep telling us he was one of the most important singers.

You have done much research in Ireland and keep quoting this in criticising a book about English Folk Song

Which other English singers did you interview in such depth?

As by your own admission you did not get into folk music until you were converted by the Liverpool Spinners in 1966 (therefore a newbie)I struggle to remember who was still around to interview.

N.B This is not a put down of Walter. I too enjoyed visiting him.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Aug 18 - 11:37 AM

I hope that was a joke to alleviate the atmosphere Vic
If it was, I apologise
Jim


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Aug 18 - 11:37 AM

I hope that was a joke to alleviate the atmosphere Vic
If it was, I apologise
Jim


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Aug 18 - 11:10 AM

"I just thought we were trying to avoid having the thread shut down!"
I am Steve - I can't speak for you
"blind faith "
I find that extremely insulting after forty years of research - on par with your "starry-eyed " comment
I have explained my reserved support of Sharp in detail
Please point out where I have insulted anybody here

"Has Rod Stradling written a book?"
More typos - you are exceeding yourself in your contribution Vic
Certainly not helpful
Jim


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Vic Smith
Date: 16 Aug 18 - 11:03 AM

Believe it or not, it was a genuine question when I typed that. It is only since reading it again that I realise what was intended.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 16 Aug 18 - 11:00 AM

Vic,
That's not very nice using a 'rod' to criticise someone's keyboard!


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 16 Aug 18 - 10:58 AM

I thrive on strong criticism, Jim. I just thought we were trying to avoid having the thread shut down!

'denigrated the work of fellow researchers' The alternative to that is blind faith and I don't go there as you know.

'belittled the contribution of one of England's most important singers'
I have the utmost respect and admiration for Walter's contribution, and not selectively. If we had met I'm sure we would have got on famously, swapping songs and melodeon tunes. You misrepresent me once again.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Vic Smith
Date: 16 Aug 18 - 10:55 AM

"Rod's book"
Has Rod Stradling written a book?


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 16 Aug 18 - 10:42 AM

'high altitude East Africa'.

Hi Jag, I suspected something like that. Actually that is very interesting in that one very strong proposed source of chantey singing is via East African slaves taking their customs with them to the Caribbean plantations. If you read Gibb's new book that is a very realistic possibility. I feel a thesis coming on! (Not really, I'm too long in the tooth.)


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Aug 18 - 10:38 AM

"Jim, I have not stooped to personal abuse since we were warned off about this"
I have given an honest assessment of your work and deas and have been fairly diligent in saying why I have reached those conclusions
Nowhere will you find personal abuse from me - hard criticism certainly - I consider the te subject important enough to merit that
The only personal abuse here is when Pseu dismissed my arguments because of his misconceived assesmet of my politics (pretty much as you did)
You for your part have denigrated the work of fellow researchers and have belittled the contribution of one of England's most important singers
Your claims of origins is brand new - that was my reference to newbies
I have abused nobody here, not even you ("though I have most certainly bitten my tongue)
If you can't deal with strong criticism go find a fanzine forum

"Unless that reviewer (which review is it ?) has been taking part in this discussion why bend people's ears over it here. "
Because it is here I first read it when somebody put it up as a compliment to Rod's book - go read the thread
It has been the tenor of this argument from day one - that somebody else made folk songs and the folk were only customers (one of Steve G's earliest statements)
Jim


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 16 Aug 18 - 10:33 AM

Jag>>>>>> to allow something that most people could remember and join in with<<<<<< It did happen but not that often. Check out 'Johnny Sands' Laws Q3, Roud 184 which is a Music Hall rewrite of the earlier piece 'Marrow Bones', Laws Q2, Roud 183.(both found in oral tradition).

Also the broadside ballad 'William and Dinah' was parodied by Henry Mayhew to become 'Villikins & Dinah' (both found in oral tradition).

William Taylor, another example, from a 50 verse mid 18th century garland version cut down by the broadside writers more than once to about 12 verses, then that burlesqued for the Music Hall and then several of these running parallel in oral tradition, the burlesque even reverting to serious song.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Vic Smith
Date: 16 Aug 18 - 10:33 AM

More about Walter Pardon from Musical Traditions -

Stand Up Ye Men of Labour The Socio-Political Songs of Walter Pardon
This first one one needs a bit of explanation. Keith Summers started his occasional but indispensible magazine Traditional Music magazine in 1975. - 10 great issues before he changed the name to Musical Traditions in 1983 to reflect his (and mine and many others) increasing interest in non-English language traditions to include many, particularly African, traditions. Always perilous financially, the venture was eventually taken up by Rod Stradling (initially with help from Fred McCormick) and he re-launched it as as internet only magazine - and what a treasure trove that has become.
At a later stage Rod digitised all the relevant articles and reviews from the paper editions and added them to the MT website. This one on Walter Pardon came from the first paper edition of Musical Traditions from Mid - 1983. Curiously, the website does not credit the author but checking with the paper edition confirms my suspicion that it was by Mike Yates.

Put a bit of Powder on it, Father ... the other songs of Walter Pardon - Roly Brown - Musical Traditions Website 07/06/2000

Put a Bit of Gunpowder on it, Father More controversy ... Correspondence arising from Roly's article (including some from people who have contributed to this thread - showing that very little changes in nearly 20 years)

Review of "World Without Horses" - Walter Pardon (Topic TSCD514) by Rod Stradling 14/06/2000


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Brian Peters
Date: 16 Aug 18 - 10:29 AM

Thanks for the various comments about Harry Boardman - nice to know that his name still resonates, and that others express respect for a man who was one of my great inspirations. Steve is right, though, that Harry was part of a movement still experimenting with appropriate ways of accompaniment. The banjo idea may have come from Peggy (or possibly Pete) Seeger, and I can remember several bands in the 1970s using banjos to accompany English material. My point about the concertina was that, although it’s often regarded as being an authentic folk instrument, there’s only the scantiest evidence for it having been used by English country singers to accompany themselves, so really it’s credentials are hardly stronger than the banjo – which, as I mentioned, does have a long history in England, albeit in a different style from that popular in the USA. All the evidence from every folk song collector in England is that songs were sung unaccompanied and solo, with a few instances of vocal harmony here and there. Incidentally, Harry was also an extremely good unaccompanied singer, as anyone who heard him sing ‘The Flying Cloud’ would testify.

Most of his other songs had already died, some having had an initially short life as topical broadsides.

This broadly true, although ‘With Henry Hunt We’ll Go’ was still clinging on in public conciousness by the time Frank Kidson started collecting. Harry also said that his song ‘I’ll Have a Collier’ came from his mother.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,jag
Date: 16 Aug 18 - 10:25 AM

I am guessing from your quotation style Steve that the Guest who asked about the ox ploughman was you. If so that answer is 'high altitude East Africa'.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 16 Aug 18 - 10:13 AM

Sharp >>>>>>'was a scholar who actually examined what he collected and came to 'some conclusions" about what he found'<<<<<<<

So where's your evidence for how he came to those 'incorrect' conclusions? Blind faith is not enough to a realist, a romantic maybe.

>>>>>>>a group of newbies tearing down the work of the people<<<<<<

Kneejerk twaddle. We certainly are not newbies.

Jim, I have not stooped to personal abuse since we were warned off about this. I have bitten my tongue on numerous occasions since then, but you have continued in your usual abusive way, and others are noticing.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,jag
Date: 16 Aug 18 - 10:13 AM

I do have a comment on the book. It may be I missed something because I was not thinking of it at the time, but I don't recall a discussion of the relevance of solo versus communal singing on the development of songs.

It occurred to me when reading the recent 'Lord Randall' thread. That strikes me as being a very 'robust' song suitable for a serious solo, or with some joining in on the repeated parts, or as something like call and response maybe with boozed-up wags sometimes throwing in jokey substitutions. I first came across it 'communally' as the vestigial (parody or creative abstraction?) 'Green and yeller' as sung by Pete Seeger but maybe created for the barrack room.

Roud does mention burlesques and parodies comming back into the oral tradition not recognized as such. How much of the shortening down to a few versus that Walter Pardon comments on for Music Hall also went on amongst the folk to allow something that most people could remember and join in with. I have heard it said that one characteristic of the style of the Music Hall was that people sang what they had heard whilst walking home and looked forward to the next time.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,jag
Date: 16 Aug 18 - 09:40 AM

"People can always read the book."
The review that stands out for me said "Look - the folk didn't write folk songs"


Unless that reviewer (which review is it ?) has been taking part in this discussion why bend people's ears over it here.

If you want some academic arrogance then I will say that Walter Pardon's view about the tunes (melodeon bellows etc) lacks rigour and displays a flaw in logic worthy of a simple country man. It makes me reluctant to accept what he says about the words at face value.

That said, I hope people regard the interview as a valuable record of the views he came to base on his experience and knowldege of the past. Not to take it into account in a scholarly study would be remiss but to base a critique of a book on it is unconvincing.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Aug 18 - 09:32 AM

"Unfortunately Jim, I don't regard you as a reliable source of historical information."
I'll lay awake worrying about that one Pseau
You know who I am, you have been given enough to know what Pat and I did, you can read up on our work and listen to our singers - you can even visit the Library at Limerick University World Music Department that (somewhat embarrassingly) is to be named after us
I don't even know your name, let alone what you are from or what you have done
In then end, it's not about us but the singers and those who opened the doors to these wonderful songs
There have been liberal doses of insulting, demeaning and marginalising all of those to one degree or another, so I can take a degree of comfort in remembering that I am in the best of company as a recipient of your insulting behaviour
You appear not to have learned very much
I think it best that we stop trading insults before we close this thread - don't you?
Jim


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Aug 18 - 09:22 AM

"People can always read the book."
The review that stands out for me said "Look - the folk didn't write folk songs"
That for me undermines the whole basis of folk song
The folk revival went crashing in flames when people started taking the"folk" out of folk clubs and our guarantee of hearing a folk song was removed from us.

Irish Traditional music has been guaranteed a future because a handful of dedicated people built a solid foundation for it based on what the singers and musicians actually sang, played and said
The annual Willie Clancy Summer School (last months was the 46th) was started to honour a fine traditional musician, the first classes, talks and recitals were largely presented by traditional musicians and singers and that has remained the policy for four months short of half a century
Many of the old pupils and attendees of the events are now teachers as researchers themselves and there are literary many hundreds of young people coming onto the scene, some playing better than their teachers.
They can do what they want with the music now - modernise it, experiment with it, merge it with other forms - but the fact that a basis has been built means that it will never be lost among the other genres.
We wouldn't know where to begin if some bugger kept moving the goal-posts as this lot has done.
Irish people now know wahat traditional music is, it is presented on the radio and television most nights of the week, it is recognised as an art form, even by the formal arts world and it is now treated with pride and respect
Before the bankers ***** up our economy, asking for a grant for research was pushing on an open door (we were lucky enough to get two)
The fact that our County Library opened a website to make our Clare songs available is indicative of how "the times they are a-changin' here, as is the fact that the Council appointed two singers-in-residence to take our songs around the local schools   
The Irish Traditional music Archive was opened by Ireland's first woman president, the lovely Mary Robinson and he move to spectacular new premises im Merrion Square was honoured by the Irish Arts Minister

On a personal level, at present I can go out five/six nights a week and hear traditional music well played (that will probably drop to three-four nights during the winter months
Song has some way to go to catch up, but some of us are working on that all the time

It's not the facile boom that once took place, here and in Britain - it's here to stay and many of the musicians are now parts of dynasties - grandparents, parents, children, grandchildren....
That would never have happened in w situation where those involved couldn't find their folk arse with both hands - it was fought for y people who knew what traditional music was and how unique and important it was.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 16 Aug 18 - 09:07 AM

Unfortunately Jim, I don't regard you as a reliable source of historical information. I have to take into account when evaluating your assertions your own ideological bias, and also your track record of misrepresentations, personal slurs, part truths, and romanticism.

Sorry, but this has been a long discussion and I have, as I said, learned a lot.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 16 Aug 18 - 08:57 AM

"It is the first thread on the subject of definition that hasn't ended up a slanging match"


I laughed out loud.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 16 Aug 18 - 08:44 AM

Jim

"Roud's redefinition"

If it makes you happy to believe that, what harm does it do?

People can always read the book.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 16 Aug 18 - 08:39 AM

Guest: :D


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Aug 18 - 08:38 AM

People appear not to want to discuss Roud's "brilliant" book rather than to pay homage to it
It is an excellent account of the history of popular music - in my opinion it falls at the first fnce on folk music by redefining it and making it and making it both meaningless and 'ordinary'
THis thread has discussed in detail the problems that Roud's redefinition has raised
It is the first thread on the subject of definition that hasn't ended up a slanging match and has dealt with the subject in detail
I for one am grateful for that
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Aug 18 - 08:32 AM

"that ordinary people in England over the centuries sang songs from print traditions and were"
Maybe some dod - Walter didn't
He vever sandg American songs and the songs he sang he gathered from his family and wrote them down
The rest le REMEMBERED from hearing them sung or played on records
You seem to have become an expert on Walter overnight - from 'Cupid the Ploughboy' to what he sung - or in this case, what he didn't sing
I have explained over and over again how Walter got his songs

He was an only child who spent his childhood and youth in the company of two elderly singer uncles
The family singing took place at home, at falmiy gathering for birthdays and at Christmas - there Walter, as a boy, only ever sang one song, 'The Dark-Eyed Sailor' "'Cause nobody else wanted that one"
Originally the singing had taken place at Harvest Suppers, but Walter was too young to remember them

During WW2 Walter was called up and served his time in various places in England (mainly Yorkshire) due to a foot problem
When he returned both his uncles were dead, so he systematically setout to gather his families songs, largely from memory, but also from other family members.
He memorised the tunes on his melodeon and they lay dormant until a nephew, Roger, persuaded him to put some of them on tape - do he went out, bought a tape recorder and did so (we have a lovely and somewhat hilarous description of his doing so)

Roger was tutoring Peter Bellamy at University nad passed on the tape to him who in turn passed it on to Bill Leader
Then and only then did Walter begin to sing in public
WE have Walter's original selections - they reflect his own definition of folk song perfectly

Roud and Bishop really needed to get out among traditional singers more before they made their definitive statements
In an argument once Julia once told Pat that she was wrong about Travellers because she (Julia) had "studied the subject at University"

I really am becoming a little pissed-off with this huge gap of understanding from people who really should know better before they make their definitive and (unfortunately) influential statements based on wild generalisations about a dead tradition
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 16 Aug 18 - 08:01 AM

For a discussion of the major and minor modes in English folk song, there is a chapter in Roud by Julia Bishop. I believe her view is that most English folk tunes were in major modes. It was said that collectors and revivalists liked the minor modes precisely because they felt less usual. Assuming that a song ends on the home note, bellows closed would be major, bellows open minor.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 16 Aug 18 - 07:50 AM

The case of Walter Pardon, for me, supports entirely what Steve Roud says in his book, that ordinary people in England over the centuries sang songs from print traditions and were influenced by these, and that later recorded music and music from the USA were also influences.

I'm not sure about 'starry-eyed' or 'romantic' are complete descriptions of what has been going on here, but plainly there is a lot of romanticism and I am finding some of it patronising.

What is plain is that this thread isn't going to be allowed to discuss Roud's brilliant book because some people want to tell a different story.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Aug 18 - 07:44 AM

REgarding Walter
Walter did have an eclectic record collection, most of the songs he new from them he remembered rather than learned - I aften astound Pat be singing my way though all the Buddy Holly, Connie Francis and Hank Williams songs that used to line my record racks
Mike Yates made the largest number of Waler's records and did his usual excellent job of doing so - they represented Walter's musical experiences perfectly
My 'By any other Name' article a was a response to an article by him on the Musical Traditions site - his title, 'The Other Music' sums up perfectly how Walter regarded his non-folk songs
I couldn't find it earlier but it should still be on the MT site - well worth reading.

We were given the sad job of clearing Walters house out after he died
He and his family were hoarders who seldom threw anything out - from dozens of blunt scythe blades, to the same number of old cut-throat razors going back two generations.
Nowhere did we come across old songbooks or broadsides
What we did inherit was two of his notebooks in which he systematically listed and wrote out the words of his family's "old folk" songs - fascinating and revealing
WE still have his old gramophone and some of his records on display in our home

Can I make something quite clear
Walter never worked to any "definition" - he instinctively knew what was what in the songs he knew and was outspoken in saying so - though he never argued with people about his opinions
He did occasionally tell us of visitors who came for his musicall/Victorian songs
We hae him on tape somewhere saying "I don't know what they want them old things for".
Walter and Pat and I never at any time "worked on a list" - we would never have done so had we been given the opportunity
If you asked him a question, the answer came poring out without hesitation.

For me, one of the most insightful things anybody has ever said about a song is, after he had sung 'Van Dieman's Land', he burst out, "That's a long old song, but it was a long old journey"
Walterw was a singer who wore his songs as he wore his favourite old clothes - they fitted him perfectly and were a part of his life.
Jim


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Aug 18 - 07:44 AM

REgarding Walter
Walter did have an eclectic record collection, most of the songs he new from them he remembered rather than learned - I aften astound Pat be singing my way though all the Buddy Holly, Connie Francis and Hank Williams songs that used to line my record racks
Mike Yates made the largest number of Waler's records and did his usual excellent job of doing so - they represented Walter's musical experiences perfectly
My 'By any other Name' article a was a response to an article by him on the Musical Traditions site - his title, 'The Other Music' sums up perfectly how Walter regarded his non-folk songs
I couldn't find it earlier but it should still be on the MT site - well worth reading.

We were given the sad job of clearing Walters house out after he died
He and his family were hoarders who seldom threw anything out - from dozens of blunt scythe blades, to the same number of old cut-throat razors going back two generations.
Nowhere did we come across old songbooks or broadsides
What we did inherit was two of his notebooks in which he systematically listed and wrote out the words of his family's "old folk" songs - fascinating and revealing
WE still have his old gramophone and some of his records on display in our home

Can I make something quite clear
Walter never worked to any "definition" - he instinctively knew what was what in the songs he knew and was outspoken in saying so - though he never argued with people about his opinions
He did occasionally tell us of visitors who came for his musicall/Victorian songs
We hae him on tape somewhere saying "I don't know what they want them old things for".
Walter and Pat and I never at any time "worked on a list" - we would never have done so had we been given the opportunity
If you asked him a question, the answer came poring out without hesitation.

For me, one of the most insightful things anybody has ever said about a song is, after he had sung 'Van Dieman's Land', he burst out, "That's a long old song, but it was a long old journey"
Walterw was a singer who wore his songs as he wore his favourite old clothes - they fitted him perfectly and were a part of his life.
Jim


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,jag
Date: 16 Aug 18 - 07:39 AM

Walter Pardon from Jim's mustrad article

Nine times out of ten I can get an old fashioned ten keyed accordion, German tuned, you can nearly tell what is an old song. Of course that doesn't matter what modern songs there is, the bellows always close when that finish, like that. And you go right back to the beginning of the nineteenth and eighteenth (century), they finish this way, pulled out, look.

How good a discriminator is that? Many of the song tunes, and a huge number of dance tunes, were written down in the early 19th and late 18th century. Are all the Music Hall tunes all 'bellows closed' tunes? The way Pardon put it not definitive because it could be a circular argument but the manuscripts might help us test it.

A box player explained to me about the bellows open thing when giving hints on how to work out the key of a tune from watching players, and it was mentioned early in this discussion.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 16 Aug 18 - 07:32 AM

Just at the moment, I really don't care very much what Ewan MacColl said. I do not find 'MacColl' said it much of an argument.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 16 Aug 18 - 07:06 AM

Eggs for Breakfast, minus another one:   Written in 1870s by Harry Linn. 138.

The Parson and the Clarke, known author: 137


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Aug 18 - 06:55 AM

"So why do you keep posting it?"
Because you - and everybody keep ignoring it in your quest to prove that they didn't
There you go with you "romanticism" again
One minute it's a matter of opinion, the next a dismissal of the work of others
You really have to produce proof of your claims other than earliest publication dates

It is rapidly becoming my opinion that a group of desk-bound academics (who haven't done enough background work to merit the title "researchers") have decided to fill in the empty hours by coming up with yet another new theory by arbitrarily redefining folk song to include the dross of the commercial music industry

Sharp not a researcher this is as much utter nonsense as was describing Water's importance as being because he was a latecomer and among only a few
Sharp, as limited as his work might have been by his times and the fact he was a pioneer, was a scholar who actually examined what he collected and came to 'some conclusions" about what he found
It is distasteful and totally contrary to the friendly and co-operative attitude I have always experienced from fellow enthusiasts and researchers, to see a group of newbies tearing down the work of the people who gave us the songs we have taken so much pleasure and interest from - unprofessional, to say the least

"We have done so on many occasions "
You are being disingenuous in claiming you have explained why you have the hacks could have made our songs - I've just listed your feeble, on-the spot and somewhat pathetic excuses
None of my business but if I was another poster I would bitterly resent your implicating me in your claims - nobody but you has dragged up ill-thought-out excuses
You appear not even to regard these hacks as historically judh=ged producers of "dunghill" doggerel

You are not going to either withdraw or explain your downgrading of one of England's finest traditional singers - apologising for doing so seems beyond all expectation.
Your team really needs a few people who actually like and understand folk song

MacColl once told us in an interview that he believed folk song would only die if it fell into the hands of people who don't like or understand it and want to replace it with something else.
In the words of one of his songs "It's all happening now"
Jim


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 16 Aug 18 - 06:35 AM

The other thing I picked up from MUSTRAD and elsewhere is that there appear to have been some disagreements between the revivalists about which of Pardon's work to release on record. I'm wondering what we know about these.

The MUSTRAD site has a list of 78 records owned by Pardon. A mixture of Irish, American, Vera Lynn,. Quite eclectic influences.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 16 Aug 18 - 06:28 AM

I have several times tried to post links to some of the work on Walter Pardon that is available on line, but each time the post disappears.

So I'll just suggest that people look at the MUSTRAD pages on Walter Pardon, which are very interesting. They include transcripts of interviews and lists of recordings.

They explain that according to Walter Pardon himself most of the songs he sang came from his grandfather's broadsheets. Pardon learned his songs from an uncle who learned them from Pardon's uncle. Pardon could not later find these broadsheets, only a manuscript version of one song.

The MUSTRAD pages also allow us to trace three union songs sung by Pardon to a printed collected of such songs which his uncle owned.

If we discount fragments, it appears that Walter sang 182 songs.

If we accept whatever definition of 'folk' Pardon was working with when he and Jim drew up a list of Pardon songs that were not folk, and subtract the three from the book of union songs, that would leave about 139 that might be 'folk songs'. But of course this method is flawed. So many dodgy variables.

On Roud's definition, however, even the ones from broadsides would count as folk as they appear to have reached Pardon by a process of oral transmission over two generations, grandfather to uncle, uncle to Pardon.

Pardon was taken up by the folk revivalists, and even filmed, and I agree with the comments that he must have found the process strange.

Personally I find that when people start swearing in what appears to be a bad-tempered manner, or to post in red letters, I switch off ('Pardon' the electrical metaphor) and lose interest in what they have to say. Not my sort of red letter day. It just makes me tend to sympathise with whoever woulnd them up.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 16 Aug 18 - 06:11 AM

>>>>>>I firmly believe that the folk were capable having made their folk songs - nobody here has ever suggested that they couldn't have<<<<<

So why do you keep posting it?

>>>>>>>opinions of researchers and anthologists<<<<<<

More anthologists than researchers and most of these were simply regurgitating romantic notions without any foundation (in my opinion) As I said earlier Sharp was a collector and anthologist, not a folksong scholar. If you believe he was a folksong scholar present some evidence.

>>>>>>why not tell me why these songs should be the products of desk-bound city hacks who were notorious for their bad poetry?<<<<<<<

We have done so on many occasions but you choose to dismiss or ignore it.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Aug 18 - 04:10 AM

Thanks Joe - they both download nicely
I wrote the 'Other Name article', 'Countryman' was a joint effort
"Joe links need a password."
I didn't realise they did - you probably will have to joun but don't forget the vaccination against infection if you do!!
Thanks for putting up a usable link - I couldn't find it earlier
If you want the Countryman article you will have to let me have an e-mail address and I'll post it
Jim


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,jag
Date: 16 Aug 18 - 03:56 AM

A Folk Song ... by Any Other Name

Just trying to be helpful.

(Joe links need a password. Do I have to join?)


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,jag
Date: 16 Aug 18 - 03:35 AM

I was going to say that for the Cob Coalin' song Harry probably was a 'source singer' but the mudcat thread on it quotes him as saying he collected it from local children.

He gave a new lease of life, amongst an adult audience, to a song that had survived by oral transmission amongst children for at least 50 years having, the consensus seems to be, originated as a mainly adult pace-egging song.

Most of his other songs had already died, some having had an initially short life as topical broadsides.

How long have people been doing that? Did music hall performers do the same?


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Aug 18 - 03:31 AM

" and became something of a celebrity in the 60s as there weren't many source singers left who had a reasonable repertoire."
I find this incredibly derogatory
If Walter had appeared at the beginning of the revival he would have been considered an important singer, for the size of his repertoire, for his skill at singing them and for his understand of them
Suggesting that he was important only because there were so fer of them is downright insulting
What the hell are you on Steve - are you maligning the singers as well as the scholars?
THe music hall songs sung by the Watersons were a reflection of their (poor, in my opinion) taste
When the club scene was at its most healthy nobody bothered with them because there were far better ones available
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Joe Offer
Date: 16 Aug 18 - 03:27 AM

Jim Carroll send me two articles that I'm assuming that he wrote - or maybe he and Pat wrote them. He said they're too long to post at Mudcat. But they're very interesting, so I hope I can figure out a way to post them at Mudcat sometime. Here they are:

http://www.joe-offer.com/MudcatGraphics/Articles/A_Simple_Countryman.doc (great Walter Pardon article)

http://www.joe-offer.com/MudcatGraphics/Articles/Folksong_by_any_other_name.doc

Let me know if these links work.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Aug 18 - 03:22 AM

"I'm getting the impression you are not too enamoured with the MT CDs of Walter."
You would be wrong
There was nothing I didn't like about Walter - he was a close friend for twenty years and Pat and I treasured the time we spent in his company
The CD was not representative of Walter's own tastes it, but it presented a side of him that was part of his history
Walter had a phenomenal memory and as a young man he took in songs of all types that were being sung around him, at home and in the army
In one interview we did he described when his cousins and other relatives (he had no siblings) "went our separate ways - they went with the moden stuff, I stuck with the old folk songs"
He was extremely articulate and describe in detail what he considered the differences between the genres
He wasn't alone in doing this but he was certainly the most articulate singer we ever met

I've told you Steve, I have no intention of entering into one of your "insider knowledge" blind alleys again - you want to re-visit it, dithem up and link to them
We have been here before and you presented a number of excuses as to how the hacks would know these things - hacks who worked on the land or went to sea to gain knowledge of sea terms and practices, or those who "might have moved in from having worked in the countryside to work on the land", or had "researched newspapers to get the knowledge contained in folk songs" (I'm paraphrasing this but I'll dig them out if you insist)
None of this came with evidence of hacks actually doing this - it was a knee-jerk response to me pointing out that our songs are full of such insights - that, for me, is what separates them from the pastiche and that is why the singers believed them.
Both Walter and Tom Lenihan compared their songs to the modern genres in these terms.
There are many dozens of examples of country lore in the ballads, before folklore became a research discipline and some of these examples occur in the songs; a killer stepping over his victim and causing it to bleed occurs in several Irish murder ballads; searching for a drowned person by floating candles is another example.

When Tom Lenihan and others said, "That's a true song", they didn't mean that it happened, but that it rang bells in their own lives.
It would take a skilled social historian or an assiduously researching writer to gain that level of conviction
You can try to take that belief away from working people as you have attempted to take away the authorship of the songs if you wish, but you'll have to provide far more than excuses

You have never explained how bad poets could possibly have made so may good songs (maybe you don't believe they aren't good songs)
You went through a whole string of excuses for that
First, "hacks" didn't really mean bad poets, then "a school of good ones among the hacks".... anything rather than the folk might have made folk songs
You have paid lip-service to the two-way street coposistion that MacColl described in the Song Carriers and which you treated with so much disdain, but there is no sign that this is any more than lip-service.

Once again you are insisting that I passively accept your continual grilling yet not one of you have had the courtesy to answer my arguments with anything resembling a reasonably articulate answer
Who do you think you are, a CIA interrogation team

One more time.
I have made my position quite clear
I firmly believe that the folk were capable having made their folk songs - nobody here has ever suggested that they couldn't have
I belive that to have been the opinions of researchers and anthologists since the beginnings of folk song research until a bunch of new kids on the block came along, redifined folk songs as "anything the folk sang" and claimed otherwise
It is logical to me that sailors songs fairly accurately describing life at sea and on shore might well have been made by the people the songs were about
The same with soldiers, and farmworkers and miners and rural dwellers and navvies.....
I believe that on the basis of talking to traditional singers who accepted the "truth" (authenticity) of the songs they sang
I also believe that if Irish rural dwellers in similar situations ot their English counterparts made the me=any hundreds of songs describing their lives, why not the English - a cultural deficiency maybe?
THese were not Dibdin's "jolly Jack Tar' pastiches or Marie Antoinette's Versailles tableau Shepherds and Shepherdesses - they were realistically described people in realistically described situations using genuine-sounding vernacular language and an apparent knowledge of country and trade practices and lore.
It has always been the down-to-earth universal reality that has impressed me about our folk-songs
Now - instead of these fingernail-extracting interrogations, why not tell me why these songs should be the products of desk-bound city hacks who were notorious for their bad poetry?


Jim


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 15 Aug 18 - 06:08 PM

Harry was very much a part of the early revival in the 50s when English folksingers were experimenting with a wide range of instrumentation. He was highly respected for researching and singing the songs of his native Lancashire, and he influenced a lot of people who came along later. At that time he was the main representative of his county taking those songs around the country to folk clubs and festivals. Whether what he sang/played was 'authentic' wasn't really much of an issue then and all he needed to be was entertaining and representative of the genre and he certainly fulfilled that.

Walter was very different in that he was a source singer who had retained the songs from his own family and became something of a celebrity in the 60s as there weren't many source singers left who had a reasonable repertoire. Consequently he was much recorded by a plethora of collectors and many of his songs were sung by revival singers. I never actually met him but the Waterson family who were my friends often referred to him affectionately as 'Uncle Walter' so they knew him well and sang some of his songs particularly some of the Music Hall ones.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 15 Aug 18 - 06:02 PM

The 1862 diary on the Village Music site is very moving and interesting.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 15 Aug 18 - 05:08 PM

OK I will listen to more Boardman.

I found it 'odd' to be referred to a supposedly trad-style singer who was playing an instrument I associate with the USA (via Africa, probably). In fact it came as a shock! I had understood that people saw English folk song as being unaccompanied (though I am finding myself asking 'how do we know', along the lines of how do we know the actual origins of any particular song? I was indeed being ironic when I referred to the instrument as British.

Specifically I have seen some brilliant claw hammer playing, from the USA.

I am happy to try more Pardon, and have a list of stuff not to try first thanks to Jim. But I note some of the sources I found noted that he sometimes went a little out of tune, so I am not the only one to notice this. I agree that there is a feel of humour in some of his delivery.

Happy to get advice and to learn stuff. This site is really amazing if sometimes a bit cantankerous.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 15 Aug 18 - 04:01 PM

While we're waiting for this, Jim, straight question: Roud 1080 'Jim, the Carter Lad' folksong or not, in your opinion? There must be plenty of versions on your shelves and in various recordings of source singers.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 15 Aug 18 - 03:53 PM

Greetings, Jim
I'm getting the impression you are not too enamoured with the MT CDs of Walter. I have a copy of the album 'A Proper Sort' but you mention several others. Okay, could you please choose one of the other albums, put up a track list for us and then we can all check out the 'insider knowledge' or you can itemise them for us and make it easier.

Desk-jockey Steve


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,jag
Date: 15 Aug 18 - 03:53 PM

Ha, 'Deep Lancashire' is part of my only link to a (probably) unbroken oral tradition and the influence of commercial recording - that one - on it.

I come from those parts, and Cob Coalin' was something we kids did before bonfire night. The sleeve notes give an explanation. In my case it was late 1950's.

The tune we used wasn't the one Harry Boardman used, but the words were along the same lines. 'Our tune' is not very interesting but suited to the primary age kids we were; it's about the level of a playground skipping tune. Harry's is better.

I left home and in the mid nineties asked some of my fathers generation if it was still going on. They said "yes but they use the wrong tune, they use the one off that record. It's spoiled it."

Our words were always fragmented. In the early 2000's I wondered if the old folk remembered them better. I said that when we were kids our parents told us we were gettig the words wrong. The response was "that's what they told us when we were kids".


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Vic Smith
Date: 15 Aug 18 - 03:03 PM

I never met Harry Boardman but in my early days on the folk scene his name was revered. Everyone who came into contact with him spoke well of him On my record shelves I still have his sublime album Trans Pennine - Topic Records - 12TS215 (1971) where he is partnered by Yorkshireman, Dave Hillary. I also still have another Topic album which he curated Deep Lancashire - Topic Records - 12T188 (1968) which were the first recordings by the Oldham Tinkers, Mike Harding and Lea Nicholson.
When I came to Sussex in 1968 Tina and I started a folk club within a few weeks of moving to Brighton. We asked two other singers to join us as resident singers at the club - One was Lea and the other was Mick Jones. Both were Lancastrians and both were at the U. of Sussex. Both spoke highly of the time and effort that Harry had put into teaching them an approach to singing and to song accompaniment.
It would be easy now to forget the effort and enthusiasm of some of these regional pioneers after such a long time. Fortunately, in Harry's case, there is a webpage that details some of his accomplishments.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Aug 18 - 02:51 PM

I agree totally with Brian - Harry may not have been a great banjo player, but he was certainly an effective one on certain songs
You seem to be too ready to dismiss singers on very little hearing - Walter Parddon being a prime example
I htought you were being ironic when you said it was an English instrument - many would argue about that one
It probably originated in West Africa and was developed by slaves in America
The English singing tradition is largely unaccompanied
Jim


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Aug 18 - 02:33 PM

"I don't understand your basis for disagreeing with them.
"
Then you haven't read the thread properly - I have made myself perfectly clear over and over again - afr more than I needed to
Yous claim came after I explained exactly why I disagreed with them - that is when you first said you didn't understand me
Ther is nothing in any way complicated in what you responded to
"Am I right that you disagree with them"
Do you really have to ask that ?
Sorry - I give up - that is what this whole argument is about
Jim


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Brian Peters
Date: 15 Aug 18 - 01:41 PM

This thread has moved on a long way since I last looked at it. I've nothing especially original to add, but can at least clarify one or two points.

Pseudonymous wrote:

It was stated above that the hand loom weaver's lament was by Bamford. I'm not sure this is right. a) can't find it in online collections of Bamford's work b) found a book dated 188ish online saying it was taken from someone else.

Bamford was a special constable during Chartist times, some of his work seems to reflect a dislike of the movement.


‘The Hand-loom Weavers’ Lament’ appears in Harland’s ‘Ballads and Songs of Lancashire’ (1875), and was collected by John Higson (a Droylsden man who supplied several pieces to Harland) "from the signing of John Grimshaw". Grimshaw was from Gorton and was also the source for ‘Handloom versus Powerloom’.

The ‘Lament’ doesn’t have a known author, but it doesn’t read like the work of Sam Bamford, who used a more poetic style. Some of his work was published on broadsides, however, such as ‘Song of the Slaughtered’, which can be found on the Bodleian site. During the Peterloo period either side of 1819, Bamford was a hardline radical, if he’s judged by his poetry rather than his own revisionist account written later, after he’d fallen out with Henry Hunt and co. By the late 1830s he seems to have been more concerned with gaining respectability by distancing himself from the direct action he’d once espoused and from the Chartists in particular, and he seems to have become a bit of a maverick. Like many of the Peterloo protestors he was a handloom weaver.

Re. Harry Boardman.

I found a Henry [sic] Boardman song on Spotify. He plays that old traditional English instrument - the banjo! And not particularly well.

Harry Boardman was no Bela Fleck, but he was an effective accompanist of his own singing on the banjo as well as the anglo concertina (both instruments were around in England from mid 19th century, FWIW). Harry was a very significant figure in the folk revival, establishing an independent genre of North West folk song (in an area generally neglected by folksong collectors) through settings of industrial broadsides and local poetry by Laycock, Bamford, Waugh and Brierley. It's thanks to him that many of us ever heard any of that material.

So before dismissing him as nothing but a poor banjo player on the basis of one song, Pseudonymous, maybe listen to a bit more?


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,jag
Date: 15 Aug 18 - 01:31 PM

Jim. I have been following the discussion from the start. It helped me to decide to read the book.

I understand what Roud says, I understand what Steve Gardham says about the broadsides. I don't understand your basis for disagreeing with them.

Am I right that you disagree with them?


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Aug 18 - 12:41 PM

"I give up Jim. You can't be clear about what you mean."
Nobody else has a problem understanding it
You obviously haven't bothered to read the thread
This has been going on for some time now and not a single individual has claimed not to understand the argument - congratulations on being the first
Nice cop-out though
"I like it but I don't want to discuss why"
Jim Carroll
I've asked Joe to post up two articles about Walter Pardon - if that is possible I'll be interested in the reaction, if any


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,jag
Date: 15 Aug 18 - 12:18 PM

I give up Jim. You can't be clear about what you mean. If you want someone to answer for a point they made please refer back to when they made that point and if quoting it use the exact words and don't paraphrase them using you own interpretation/misinterpration of what they said.

I think it's a good book. It is not written in an academic style - I don't think it should be - but it is precise and clearly set out. There is a good separation of raw material and interpretation. Previous work is acknowleged. Is anything significant missing from the bibliography and is there anything in the bibliography that is not referred to in the text?


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Aug 18 - 11:45 AM

"So where do you get this idea that broadsides were all written by "desk-bound city hacks who were notorious for their bad poetry"
Sorry - I don't follow you - that is what I am arguing against
Our singer to his father's songs from the oral tradition and gave them to a printer
The argument here has been exactly the opposite, that most of the songs in the oral tradition WERE COMPOSED for the broadsides and make up 90% plus of our folk songs
My argument has always been that most folk songs appearing on broadsides were taken

This is where all this began - a statement by Ewan MacColl at the end of a series of Radio prgrammes

"Well, there they are, the songs of our people. Some of them have been centuries in the making, some of them undoubtedly were born on the broadside presses. Some have the marvellous perfection of stones shaped by the sea's movement. Others are as brash as a cup-final crowd. They were made by professional bards and by unknown poets at the plough-stilts and the handloom. They are tender, harsh,, passionate, ironical, simple, profound.... as varied, indeed, as the landscape of this island.
We are indebted to the Harry Coxes and Phil Tanners, to Colm Keane and Maggie MaccDonagh, to Belle Stewart and Jessie Murray and to all the sweet and raucous unknown singers who have helped to carry our people's songs across the centuries"


This statement was received derisively bt Steve Gardham who described it as "starry eyed nonsense"
The 10 programmes in question covered the entire folk spectrum from the 16th century 'Frog and the Mouse' to an anonymous Irish song made during World War Two - the entire folk reperoire
It has since been adapted to only cover the songs that were collected when the folk tradition was at its lowest ebb, but has wobbled back and forth to our traditional ballads on occasion.
That is the argument here
I really shouldn't have to explain this - it's all old argument
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,jag
Date: 15 Aug 18 - 11:07 AM

"we spent thirty years recording a ballad seller who sold his father's songs for money" Exactly. I quoted you on that way back in the discussion when it seemed relevant but seemed to have been passed over.

So where do you get this idea that broadsides were all written by "desk-bound city hacks who were notorious for their bad poetry" I would have thought that those were the ones that didn't find their way into oral transmission.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Aug 18 - 10:51 AM

"No, the argument has been that someone having got money"
No - the argument has always been about the origins of folk songs and their uniqueness
You need to read the full thread
Nobody has ever argued that people didn't make money from the songs - we spent thirty years recording a ballad seller who sold his father's songs for money
If you are nt prepared to debate that I see nothing we have to say to each other
Jim


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 15 Aug 18 - 10:41 AM

No, the argument has been that someone having got money for the creation or money having been involved somewhere along the line of transmission or in performance does not bar a song from being a folk song.

I would not argue with that sentiment.

But the 'discussion' about commerciality also touched on Bert Lloyd's view as quoted above that we now call 'folk music' originated in a particular era out of a synthesis of commercially created music by minstrels and others. This came in the middle of a rather Mortonian bit about social change in a particular century.

I am aware that Lloyd was not always consistent in 'Folk Song in England' but this is one of the things that he said.

Jim has already responded to this. His point, as I understood it was that Chapter One of Lloyd's book is a better reflection of what Lloyd thought folk music was. Jim expressed a view that minstrel songs of that century were nothing like folk music. Jim also referred to the point as 'shadow boxing' because it touches on the 'origin' question which I don't intend to debate any more. However, it serves to illustrate the point that when writing that particular chapter Lloyd did not seem overly concerned that 'folk music' had commercially produced material at the heart of its origins.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Vic Smith
Date: 15 Aug 18 - 10:36 AM

Jag wrote (with reference to the Taylor/Lloyd interview) wrote:-

Interesting comment about the exclusive blokes with 'spiky titles'.

That stood out for me as well. Is there anyone who would like to hazard a guess as to who Bert Lloyd might have been referring to?


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Aug 18 - 10:30 AM

"Why should I answer it? I didn't suggest it. I don't recall anyone suggesting it. Does Roud?"
Stever Gardham, who has featured largely in all these arguments ahd clamed that 90% plus originated this way - you can't really have missed this
Roud only says a"a high percentage" and does not commit himself to a specific figure.
Few of Laycock's songs entered into the tradition - I put him up as somebody from a working background who was capable of making songs/poems.
My question remains - if working people were capable of making songs, why didn't they make our folk songs?
That is the question everybody is avoiding like the plague
I have been somewhat underwhelmed at the response to my offer of posting off our article on Walter Pardon - it seems people, (you included) woould rather talk about Walter without knowing what he had to say
I am going to ask Joe Offer to link to the article so at least we have the voice of a Traditional singer in this battle of academics and researchers
Pity I have to, but that seems par for the course nowadays
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,jag
Date: 15 Aug 18 - 10:27 AM

Observer. Pace egging would extend it to Easter time. But it was instrumantalists I was thinking of.

For example the weaver Richard Ryley who's diary for 1862 is at http://www.village-music-project.org.uk/?page_id=141

See for example May 1 to May 3 Or this:

July 7th. No work. In the Afternoon went with four others on a playing excursion, to the Crook’s House first 3d. Then to Gledstone Hall, where after playing for some time we were very genteely informed that they could not give us anything. I think they must be very Poor!. Then to the Poor Gardener who very cheerfully gave us 4d. then to Marton Scar, 6d. Thomas Hunter Esq. Stainton; 3s. Stainton Hall 1s. Ingthorpe Grange 3d. Marton House, East, 6d. Then to West Marton where we got about 4s. more, On dividing we had 2s. 1d. Each.

He also gives details of his income from weaving and of his costs of living.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,jag
Date: 15 Aug 18 - 09:57 AM

I was not speaking for Vic, I was saying that I hadn't read his post that way.

If you mean why not tell me why these songs should be the products of desk-bound city hacks who were notorious for their bad poetry?

Why should I answer it? I didn't suggest it. I don't recall anyone suggesting it. Does Roud? I didn't notice it in there.

I was pressing the issue of Laycock because you introduced him to the discussion and I have known for 50 years that his biographer said that he wrote poems that were sold and sung in the streets and I knew I had that description on the shelf behind me to quite from. I don't know much, but it is enough to make me suspect the accuracy of what you say.

I don't know the background of all the broadside writers, neither do you or anyone else. So we don't know if there were people similar to Laycock (and maybe the Muxton carter who is described in a quote in Roud's book) going back through the centuries.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 15 Aug 18 - 09:55 AM

" I would suggest that there is plenty of evidence that, particularly in the dog days of winter that the rural poor with any talents were pleased to join the plough stots, mummers, tipteerers, morris etc. in their rounds. Of course they were doing it for the love of it, anything that would lift spirits in their drab existence was welcome - but so was the sharing of the money that they collected for performing outside the pubs and from their pre-arranged visits to the vicarage, the manor and the various landed gentry." - Vic Smith.

Well Vic that would cover from what we now know as late December to mid-January, and as we are mentioning "evidence", the evidence suggests that these were local men - not bands of wandering players - which brings us back to - So if there was some form of social event in the community they had to do it all themselves ......"

History of Morris Dancing

"'as with many folk customs, the origins are hidden in the mists of time and coloured by later perceptions, which may or may not have been correct' Alun Howkins

Over time the dances were assimilated by the established church, and by the 1500s Morris was being performed for Easter, Whitsuntide, and saint's days. In fact Morris dancing became so much an accepted institution that medieval churchwarden's accounts show that accessories were provided by parish funds. St Lawrence Church Reading, accounts show "Moreys Dawncers" perfomed on Dedication Day 1513 and were given 3d for ale.

The accessories mentioned included shoes and bells do you honestly think that parishes doled out money for passing troupes of itinerant morris dancers? I do not think so, those making up the members of the troupe were locals. Why would total strangers have to black their faces to avoid being recognised in a particular parish? Locals would. The 3d for ale brings us back to - the only form of payment they might get, if any, would be in the form of food and drink.

Besides I do not believe that there were that many Plough Stots, mummers,tipteerers or morrismen doing the rounds in Scotland, Ireland or Wales.

There is also documented evidence that traditionally the music for the above was originally provided by a flute or a whistle and a tabor or a drum, very basic. Other instruments only became common much later when people were actively reviving the art.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Aug 18 - 09:37 AM

You are still not responding to my point and it becomes obvious that you are not intending to, despite the fact that have assiduously responded to all of yours - no change there
I think Vic is quite capable of speaking for himself
"Please remind me what the points that need answering are."
Are you really not reading what I put up, neither has anybody else -
15 Aug 18 - 06:32 AM

I certainly don't accept Vic's " 14 Jul 18 - 10:11 AM" offhand dismissal even touches the points I made
This is really pissing against the wind
Jim


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,jag
Date: 15 Aug 18 - 09:04 AM

The argument has been that money has played a major part in the creation of our folk songs since the days of the minstrels

No, the argument has been that someone having got money for the creation or money having been involved somewhere along the line of transmission or in performance does not bar a song from being a folk song.

You appear to be suggesting that the songs were created for "the sharing of the money ... I didn't read it that way.

You seem to be responding to things that people didn't say.

Please remind me what the points that need answering are.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Aug 18 - 08:05 AM

The argument has been that money has played a major part in the creation of our folk songs since the days of the minstrels
You appear to be suggesting that the songs were created for "the sharing of the money that they collected for performing outside the pubs and from their pre-arranged visits to the vicarage, the manor and the various landed gentry."
If that is your argument, of course I don't accept it - does anybody ?
Now - can I have some responses to my points please ?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Vic Smith
Date: 15 Aug 18 - 07:41 AM

You haven't responded to mey request - the same goes for you Vic

Could I politely refer you to my post at 14 Jul 18 - 10:11 AM


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 15 Aug 18 - 07:33 AM

Jag: true.

On this 'insider knowledge' argument, I have a thought which might well result in a torrent of exasperation from certain quarters, but there are fairly obvious questions to be asked about the ways in which what is asserted to be such knowledge may have been obtained.

They sometimes used to use a metaphor based on the concept of 'observer interference' from physics in social sciences. Basically this usage refers to the problems involved in face to face interviews and experiments in which people know they are being observed. Another way of putting this would be 'experimenter effect' or 'observer expectancy'.

It seems possible to me that some of the contexts which have been described for the collection of the views of tradition bearers are those in which the collectors plainly had strongly held personal views, often highly policitised ones, about the nature and function of folklore though history, and that this may have affected the nature of the responses they obtained. This is without any question of bias, even if not conscious, in the selection and presentation of the data obtained in the interviews.

Awaiting tirades of indignation, but this is not intended personally. These are points that future generations of researchers are bound to bring up. I guess some of them have been brought up.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,jag
Date: 15 Aug 18 - 07:18 AM

I don't dismiss impressions. I am aware that impressions, including my own, may be wrong.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 15 Aug 18 - 07:04 AM

And the jibe about these not being 'arguments'. That at least, though deliberately "equivocal", has a touch of humour to it.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Aug 18 - 07:03 AM

"It's not academic arrogance. "
I'm afraid it is if you dismiss impressions and can replace them with nothing else
You haven't responded to mey request - the same goes for you Vic - you've had your turn - mine now
Jim


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,jag
Date: 15 Aug 18 - 06:46 AM

It's not academic arrogance. As Lloyd said "If one's dealing with a thing on any plane of scholarship, then it's necessary to be as precise as one can."


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Vic Smith
Date: 15 Aug 18 - 06:46 AM

Jag calls for "evidence" and so do I on a different atatement.
Observer states with a considerable degree of confidence:-

So if there was some form of social event in the community they had to do it all themselves and those who played instruments did so because they could and it was their contribution, the only form of payment they might get, if any, would be in the form of food and drink. As Jim put it - They did it for the love of it.

My response would be "What is your evidence for this?" I would suggest that there is plenty of evidence that, particularly in the dog days of winter that the rural poor with any talents were pleased to join the plough stots, mummers, tipteerers, morris etc. in their rounds. Of course they were doing it for the love of it, anything that would lift spirits in their drab existence was welcome - but so was the sharing of the money that they collected for performing outside the pubs and from their pre-arranged visits to the vicarage, the manor and the various landed gentry.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,jag
Date: 15 Aug 18 - 06:43 AM

I crossed with Jim there, so the last post was not a response to his.

But it will do apart from adding that it sounds more like an declaration of faith rather than a reasoned argument.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Aug 18 - 06:43 AM

"'I know one when I hear one' or 'the old singers could tell' "
The Wiki editors know nothing of folk songs as far as I know - the contributors should
As for the argument istself, it would be a fairly weak one of we had anything better to go on, but if you believe that the singers knew less about their songs than we do, we're not speaking about the same people
That is academic arrogance in the extreme.
We don't know who wrote the songs - wr probably never shall
All we can do is gather what we do know and add common sense - personal perception by thingers and those associating with them has to be a major part of that
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 15 Aug 18 - 06:36 AM

Hootenanny

I took the wiki jibe as aimed at me.


Tzu


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,jag
Date: 15 Aug 18 - 06:36 AM

Jim's Wikipaedia comment was to me.

Do you people think Wikipedia's editors (or even its algorithms) would accept the 'I know one when I hear one' or 'the old singers could tell' or 'I can tell from my melodeon bellows' means of identifying the true folk songs?


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Aug 18 - 06:32 AM

"What is the evidence that any named folks songs "
What evidence is there that they didn't?
Evidence not backward extrapolation please

Enough of this anonymous waterboarding
I have made my position quite clear
I firmly believe that the folk were capable having made their folk songs - nobody here has ever suggested that they couldn't have
I belive that to have been the opinions of researchers and anthologists since the beginnings of folk song research until a bunch of new kids on the block came along, redifined folk songs as "anything the folk sang" and claimed otherwise
It is logical to me that sailors songs fairly accurately describing life at sea and on shore might well have been made by the people the songs were about
The same with soldiers, and farmworkers and miners and rural dwellers and navvies.....
I believe that on the basis of talking to traditional singers who accepted the "truth" (authenticity) of the songs they sang
I also believe that if Irish rural dwellers in similar situations ot their English counterparts made the me=any hundreds of songs describing their lives, why not the English - a cultural deficiency maybe?
THese were not Dibdin's "jolly Jack Tar' pastiches or Marie Antoinette's Versailles tableau Shepherds and Shepherdesses - they were realistically described people in realistically described situations using genuine-sounding vernacular language and an apparent knowledge of country and trade practices and lore.
It has always been the down-to-earth universal reality that has impressed me about our folk-songs
Now - instead of these fingernail-extracting interrogations, why not tell me why these songs should be the products of desk-bound city hacks who were notorious for their bad poetry?
These discussions are not being turned into "arguments" - that would involve two sets of ideas - not one sid offering only one-sided stonewalling
Your turn now, I think - that's an offer to anybody here, by the way
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 15 Aug 18 - 06:26 AM

Jim,

In your post at 05.13 you seem to be confusing me with someone else.

Only the "whimsical story" was mine. I do not use Wikipaedia.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,jag
Date: 15 Aug 18 - 06:09 AM

What is the evidence that any named folks songs or their tunes that date from from before the time of the late 19th century collectors where created by 'the people'?

Evidence. Not backwards extrapolation.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 15 Aug 18 - 06:06 AM

Speaking for myself I am trying to have a conversation, though it does seem difficult for it not to turn into an argument. However, I have read and absorbed what Jim has said, to please take it that from herein on none of my remarks are addressed to Jim. I can see when I'm not wanted!

Again, speaking for myself, I have expressed interest in the investigation suggested by Steve Gardam. As a point of information I also consulted the Mustrad page linked to some CDs about Walter Pardon and earlier posts on this thread.

Jag: as I understand it, Jim Carroll's main objection to the book by Steve Roud is that it adopts a 'use' definition of what folk song is, whereas Mr Carroll believes that we should use the term to apply only to songs that originate with what he sometimes calls 'the folk' and sometimes as 'traditional singers','ordinary people', 'working people', 'the people'.   

Jim also argues that the 'origin' definition has been the orthodoxy for more than one hundred years. My own view is that this is not the case, on the basis that a defition internationally agreed in 1954 gives a 'use' plus subsequent oral transmission definition, which is the one presented and discussed by Roud. Jim refers to A L Lloyd, whose view of English history was heavily influenced by a Marxist historian called A L Morton who wrote a book about England framed largely in terms of class struggle. Lloyd's book on Folk Song in England is, for me, something of a patchwork of ideas, drawing partly on Morton and also drawing heavily on the work of folklorists from behind the iron curtain as well as other sources. (NB Arthur's biography of Lloyd had some interesting information on the uses made of the old communist regimes of folklore)

On Walter Pardon, this appears to be a contentious subject as scrolling back through this thread, some discussion took place last November. Jim provided a list of songs which, he says, Walter Pardon did not regard as 'folk songs'. Jim's argument there appears to have been that even if Walter did include material in his repertoire that was not 'folk', then Walter himself did not claim it to be folk.

Naughty Jemmy Brown
Old Brown?s Daughter
Marble Arch
One Cold Morning in December
Peggy Band
Ship That Never Returned
Skipper and his Boy
Suvlah Bay
The Steam Arm
Traampwoman?s Tragedy
Two Lovely Black Eyes
The Wanderer
We?ve Both Been Here Before
When The Fields Were White With Daisies
When You Get Up in the Morning
Wreck of the Lifeboat
Write Me a Letter from Home
All Among the Barley
As I Wandered by the Brookside
Balaclava
Black Eyed Susan
Bright Golden Store
British Man of War
Cock a Doodle Doo
A Country Life
Faithful Sailor Boy
Generals All
Grace Darling
Grandfather?s Clock
Help one Another Boys
The Huntsman
I Traced Her Footprints
I?ll Come Back to you Sweetheart
I?ll Hang my Harp
I?m Yorkshire, Though In London
Irish Molly
I Wish They?d Do It
Shamrock Rose and Thistle
Lads in Navy Blue
Miner?s Return
Mistletoe Bough
More Trouble in my Native Land


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 15 Aug 18 - 05:57 AM

"In my experience, shepherd, lad [land?] workers, labourers were not paid for playing at dances, most of them did so for the sheer pleasure of doing so - money has only recently become an issue and has, in my opinion, done as much damage as 'the Folk Boom, in killing off the democracy of the music and replacing it with a need to 'make a name'
This at the time folk song in Britain is sinking out of sight and needs all the volunteer dedicated support it can get"
- Jim Carroll.

I think Jim is spot on with that. The idea that those part time local musicians had to have been paid in coin is current thinking transposed back in time. Back in the times we seem to be talking about people worked incredibly hard, the little leisure time they had was extremely precious. They lived, worked and "played" together as a community that was interdependent on the skills, talents and abilities within that community. So if there was some form of social event in the community they had to do it all themselves and those who played instruments did so because they could and it was their contribution, the only form of payment they might get, if any, would be in the form of food and drink. As Jim put it - They did it for the love of it.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Aug 18 - 05:13 AM

Hoot
Your whimsical story of a collector imposing his view on Walter suggested just that - you certainly wouldn't be the first to suggest that
I apologise if I have your meaning wrong
"If you think the Wikipedia page on Walter Pardon contains fatual errors why not correct them?"
Because life it to short to correct errors on a web-page notorious for making them
If you want to find our abour Walter read him up on reliable site s- Musical Traditions carry several ex