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Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate

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Jeri 19 Oct 16 - 07:46 PM
The Sandman 19 Oct 16 - 07:28 PM
Steve Shaw 19 Oct 16 - 07:21 PM
The Sandman 19 Oct 16 - 07:14 PM
The Sandman 19 Oct 16 - 07:07 PM
The Sandman 19 Oct 16 - 06:56 PM
Andy7 19 Oct 16 - 05:43 PM
Steve Gardham 19 Oct 16 - 04:57 PM
GUEST,pauperback 19 Oct 16 - 04:53 PM
Allan Conn 19 Oct 16 - 04:36 PM
The Sandman 19 Oct 16 - 01:08 PM
Nigel Paterson 19 Oct 16 - 12:56 PM
Steve Shaw 19 Oct 16 - 12:07 PM
The Sandman 19 Oct 16 - 11:12 AM
Jeri 19 Oct 16 - 11:12 AM
The Sandman 19 Oct 16 - 11:07 AM
Mrrzy 19 Oct 16 - 10:30 AM
GUEST,HiLo 19 Oct 16 - 10:20 AM
The Sandman 19 Oct 16 - 10:00 AM
GUEST,Richard 19 Oct 16 - 04:37 AM
Allan Conn 19 Oct 16 - 04:16 AM
Allan Conn 19 Oct 16 - 03:57 AM
GUEST,pauperback 18 Oct 16 - 09:39 PM
Jeri 18 Oct 16 - 09:38 PM
Mrrzy 18 Oct 16 - 09:26 PM
Steve Shaw 18 Oct 16 - 08:10 PM
The Sandman 18 Oct 16 - 07:55 PM
Steve Shaw 18 Oct 16 - 05:17 PM
Will Fly 18 Oct 16 - 03:39 PM
GUEST,LynnH 18 Oct 16 - 01:32 PM
GUEST,AndyL 18 Oct 16 - 11:22 AM
voyager 18 Oct 16 - 09:56 AM
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Mr Red 18 Oct 16 - 08:43 AM
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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Jeri
Date: 19 Oct 16 - 07:46 PM

Just proves to me if you don't get it, you don't get it. Shame the Nobel committee didn't ask those folks on Mudcat who know better than they do who should NOT have been given the award, if not who should have.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Oct 16 - 07:28 PM

Woody Guthrie would have written a better song about Hattie Carroll.
Deportee
(also known as "Plane Wreck at Los Gatos")
Words by Woody Guthrie, Music by Martin Hoffman

The crops are all in and the peaches are rott'ning,
The oranges piled in their creosote dumps;
They're flying 'em back to the Mexican border
To pay all their money to wade back again

Goodbye to my Juan, goodbye, Rosalita,
Adios mis amigos, Jesus y Maria;
You won't have your names when you ride the big airplane,
All they will call you will be "deportees"

My father's own father, he waded that river,
They took all the money he made in his life;
My brothers and sisters come working the fruit trees,
And they rode the truck till they took down and died.

Some of us are illegal, and some are not wanted,
Our work contract's out and we have to move on;
Six hundred miles to that Mexican border,
They chase us like outlaws, like rustlers, like thieves.

We died in your hills, we died in your deserts,
We died in your valleys and died on your plains.
We died 'neath your trees and we died in your bushes,
Both sides of the river, we died just the same.

The sky plane caught fire over Los Gatos Canyon,
A fireball of lightning, and shook all our hills,
Who are all these friends, all scattered like dry leaves?
The radio says, "They are just deportees"

Is this the best way we can grow our big orchards?
Is this the best way we can grow our good fruit?
To fall like dry leaves to rot on my topsoil
And be called by no name except "deportees"?


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Oct 16 - 07:21 PM

Did he not not indeed!


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Oct 16 - 07:14 PM

in places the above reminds me of this.The Railway Bridge of the Silvery Tay

Beautiful Railway Bridge of the Silvery Tay!
With your numerous arches and pillars in so grand array
And your central girders, which seem to the eye
To be almost towering to the sky.
The greatest wonder of the day,
And a great beautification to the River Tay,
Most beautiful to be seen,
Near by Dundee and the Magdalen Green.

Beautiful Railway Bridge of the Silvery Tay!
That has caused the Emperor of Brazil to leave
His home far away, incognito in his dress,
And view thee ere he passed along en route to Inverness.

Beautiful Railway Bridge of the Silvery Tay!
The longest of the present day
That has ever crossed o'er a tidal river stream,
Most gigantic to be seen,
Near by Dundee and the Magdalen Green.

Beautiful Railway Bridge of the Silvery Tay !
Which will cause great rejoicing on the opening day
And hundreds of people will come from far away,
Also the Queen, most gorgeous to be seen,
Near by Dundee and the Magdalen Green.

Beautiful Railway Bridge of the Silvery Tay!
And prosperity to Provost Cox, who has given
Thirty thousand pounds and upwards away
In helping to erect the Bridge of the Tay,
Most handsome to be seen,
Near by Dundee and the Magdalen Green.

Beautiful Railway Bridge of the Silvery Tay!
I hope that God will protect all passengers
By night and by day,
And that no accident will befall them while crossing
The Bridge of the Silvery Tay,
For that would be most awful to be seen
Near by Dundee and the Magdalen Green.

Beautiful Railway Bridge of the Silvery Tay!
And prosperity to Messrs Bouche and Grothe,
The famous engineers of the present day,
Who have succeeded in erecting
The Railway Bridge of the Silvery Tay,
Which stands unequalled to be seen
Near by Dundee and the Magdalen Green.

However, the McGonagle did understand about not using double negatives


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Oct 16 - 07:07 PM

and i quote from the above
Anyone can write good verse that rhymes and has accurate meter, but if it's devoid of substance and imagination, it's still not poetry. and an example the The Lonesome Death of Hattie Carroll
Bob Dylan
William Zanzinger killed poor Hattie Carroll
With a cane that he twirled around his diamond ring finger
At a Baltimore hotel society gathering
And the cops were called in and his weapon took from him
As they rode him in custody down to the station
And booked William Zanzinger for first-degree murder
But you who philosophize disgrace and criticize all fears
Take the rag away from your face
Now ain't the time for your tears
William Zanzinger, who at twenty-four years
Owns a tobacco farm of six hundred acres
With rich wealthy parents who provide and protect him
And high office relations in the politics of Maryland
Reacted to his deed with a shrug of his shoulders
And swear words and sneering, and his tongue it was snarling
In a matter of minutes, on bail was out walking
But you who philosophize disgrace and criticize fears
Take the rag away from your face
Now ain't the time for your tears
Hattie Carroll was a maid in the kitchen
She was fifty-one years old and gave birth to ten children
Who carried the dishes and took out the garbage
And never sat once at the head of the table
And didn't even talk to the people at the table
Who just cleaned up all the food from the table
And emptied the ashtrays on a whole other level
Got killed by a blow, lay slain by a cane
That sailed through the air and came down through the room
Doomed and determined to destroy all the gentle
And she never done nothing to William Zanzinger
And you who philosophize disgrace and criticize all fears
Take the rag away from your face
Now ain't the time for your tears
In the courtroom of honor, the judge pounded his gavel
To show that all's equal and that the courts are on the level
And that the strings in the books ain't pulled and persuaded
And that even the nobles get properly handled
Once that the cops have chased after and caught 'em
And that the ladder of law has no top and no bottom
Stared at the person who killed for no reason
Who just happened to be feelin' that way without warnin'
And he spoke through his cloak, most deep and distinguished
And handed out strongly, for penalty and repentance
William Zanzinger with a six-month sentence
Oh, but you who philosophize disgrace and criticize all fears
Bury the rag deep in your face
For now's the time for your tears.
this song is good poetry? are you serious? firstly its grammatically incorrect here
[And she never done nothing to William Zanzinger,] double negatives mean the opposite, then this
"And never sat once at the head of the table
And didn't even talk to the people at the table
Who just cleaned up all the food from the table".


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Oct 16 - 06:56 PM

well, hopefully this award might get him a lot of publicity and possibly it might mean that it produces an push of interest for other folk music.
Steve Gardham has spoken.."but all song lyrics are poetry"
Steve you may think so, however i will draw your attention to this article just one of quite a few people who think differently to you        



Lyrics
A Poem Is Not A Lyric

By John Braheny


In the print medium, we have an exceptional legacy of poetry in all languages. Much of that poetry also lends itself to recitation and, in fact, may be written specifically to be recited. It is one of a poet's creative options, and if he chooses it, he knows that there are certain words or syllables that won't flow comfortably in speech but will work fine on paper. Other words that can conjure pictures when spoken passionately don't have nearly as much impact on paper. Dylan Thomas's poetry, though it does work on paper, was clearly written to be recited, and recordings of him or Brendan Behan reciting it can bring tears to the eyes. The point is that poetry lives in the media of both print and speech. Lyrics, on the other hand, live elsewhere.

A common misconception is that songs are poetry put to music. It is true that an immense number of treasured lyrics do work as well on the printed page as in a musical context. Writer/artists such as Jackson Browne, Joni Mitchell, Bob Dylan, Tom Waits, and others possess vocal and writing styles so integrated that an unusually poetic phrase feels right at home in their styles, but would not work comfortably in another artist's style. Very few Joni Mitchell songs can be performed by another artist without imitating her style.

Performers such as these are considered "album artists." In other words, we buy their albums, not because they have a hit single, but because we like their style and the people we perceive them to be. We're likely to read their lyrics on the CD inserts and allow them a little more "poetic license," a little more abstraction and a few more obscure references that we're challenged to figure out. We don't mind because we're already fans.

The point is that, in most cases, a good poem does not necessarily make a good lyric. The obvious difference is that a lyric must function with music. It must be sung. A poem written for the printed page alone can use graphic style and unusual placement of words on a page to emphasize subtleties in meaning. It's not expected to rhyme. It can use identities (board/ bored) and sight rhymes (love/move). It can indulge in abstractions, because if the words aren't readily understood, our eyes and minds can stop for as long as we need to let them sink in and bounce around in the brain.

Much of what is referred to as "poetry" is actually verse. The difference is that between substance and form, imagination and craft. Verse is really anything that conforms to accepted metrical rules and structure. Anyone can write good verse that rhymes and has accurate meter, but if it's devoid of substance and imagination, it's still not poetry.

The lyric, like a poem, seeks to express an idea or emotion imaginatively in a condensed, yet powerful way. Music helps it do that. The late great composer/teacher/harmonica virtuoso Eddy Lawrence Manson, in his classes, asked students to walk across the room the same way several times. Each time, he plays different music, each selection expressing a different mood. The music gives a different impression about what that person is feeling, where he or she is going. You can use music to do that to a lyrical phrase too. The right—or wrong—music can give that spare and lean phrase exactly the right or wrong meaning. New lyricists have a tendency to minimize the importance of music as a vehicle to deliver their message.

Unlike in poetry, the words in a lyric must easily lend themselves to singing. Words like orange are not only impossible to rhyme, but difficult to sing. A lyricist needs to be able to imagine someone singing the words.

In writing lyrics for radio songs, we need to remember that listeners don't have the same amount of time to wonder what the words really mean as they do when they read poetry. They only have a quick three or four minutes..


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Andy7
Date: 19 Oct 16 - 05:43 PM

"Outside in the distance a wildcat did growl"

'The distance' is obviously 'outside'!

And 'a wildcat did growl'?? Clumsy English!

Dylan wrote a lot of dodgy lines like this. Yet he also wrote some amazing poetry.

I still think he's as deserving of the literature prize as many, for his influence as well as for his skill with words.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 19 Oct 16 - 04:57 PM

Oh dear, shades of '54' creeping in. You're wasting your time, Allan.
You might not like it, Dick, but all song lyrics are poetry.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST,pauperback
Date: 19 Oct 16 - 04:53 PM

Good soldier ~ "It just happened and happened good."


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Allan Conn
Date: 19 Oct 16 - 04:36 PM

I never said I believed that songs should not be understandable. I simply said that not understanding a song lyric does not in itself mean it is not a good lyric. Like other forms of art song lyrics can be surreal. It may not be to everyone's liking but that is just personal preference.

As to what is song lyrics and what is lyrical poetry then I am simply pointing out that there is no real clear defining line. It seems to be simply that if something is accepted as being poetry, perhaps by being included in poetry volumes, then it is poetry. Unless someone can clearly explain what makes John Anderson or Auld Lang Syne acceptable as poetry whilst Dylan's best lyrics aren't!

As an aside this has me remembering that whilst doing my English Higher here in Scotland we studied various WWI 'poems' which included Wilfred Owen, Siegfried Sassoon but also "Us And Them" by Roger Waters of Pink Floyd.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Oct 16 - 01:08 PM

Nigel, if you read up about the Dylan Paul Clayton dont think twice incident, Bob said something like i will use those lines man, so it wa conscious.
if you are pleased that he has been recognised with an inappropriate reward good, if he had been rewarded for musical longevity or song writing it would IMO, be more appropriate , i am not suggesting he is untalented, but for literature, feck off, why not art or cookery


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Nigel Paterson
Date: 19 Oct 16 - 12:56 PM

I would not describe myself as an avid Dylan fan, but am nevertheless pleased he has been recognised with such a prestigious award. On a wider front, issues of plagiarism, conscious or unconscious have been apparent in music for several hundred years. At college in the late 60s, one book on my reading list particularly attracted my attention : 'Bach the Borrower' by Norman Carrell (ISBN: 9780313222054). J.S.Bach was blessed with a phenomenal, aural memory, regularly 'borrowing' parts/whole works from unsuspecting organists to whom he listened. Today, Bach's behaviour would line the pockets of copyright lawyers.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Oct 16 - 12:07 PM

Can't agree about Imagine. He was a bit up his own bum with all that stuff. It's all only opinions!


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Oct 16 - 11:12 AM

Bob Dylan, in my opinion an over rated poet, a good song writer, a man who knew how pursue a succesful career, and who at least once borrowed from someone else, who was no better a song writer than john lennon, imagine and masters of war are first class songs, that sums him up imo


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Jeri
Date: 19 Oct 16 - 11:12 AM

Chimes of Freedom
All Along the Watchtower
When the Ship Comes In
...just three

But nobody gives much of a crap what we think.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Oct 16 - 11:07 AM

We Are Getting to the End

We are getting to the end of visioning
The impossible within this universe,
Such as that better whiles may follow worse,
And that our race may mend by reasoning.

We know that even as larks in cages sing
Unthoughtful of deliverance from the curse
That holds them lifelong in a latticed hearse,
We ply spasmodically our pleasuring.

And that when nations set them to lay waste
Their neighbours' heritage by foot and horse,
And hack their pleasant plains in festering seams,
They may again, – not warily, or from taste,
But tickled mad by some demonic force. –
Yes. We are getting to the end of dreams!
BY THOMAS HARDY
That night your great guns, unawares,
Shook all our coffins as we lay,
And broke the chancel window-squares,
We thought it was the Judgment-day

And sat upright. While drearisome
Arose the howl of wakened hounds:
The mouse let fall the altar-crumb,
The worms drew back into the mounds,

The glebe cow drooled. Till God called, "No;
It's gunnery practice out at sea
Just as before you went below;
The world is as it used to be:

"All nations striving strong to make
Red war yet redder. Mad as hatters
They do no more for Christés sake
Than you who are helpless in such matters.

"That this is not the judgment-hour
For some of them's a blessed thing,
For if it were they'd have to scour
Hell's floor for so much threatening....

"Ha, ha. It will be warmer when
I blow the trumpet (if indeed
I ever do; for you are men,
And rest eternal sorely need)."

So down we lay again. "I wonder,
Will the world ever saner be,"
Said one, "than when He sent us under
In our indifferent century!"

And many a skeleton shook his head.
"Instead of preaching forty year,"
My neighbour Parson Thirdly said,
"I wish I had stuck to pipes and beer."

Again the guns disturbed the hour,
Roaring their readiness to avenge,
As far inland as Stourton Tower,
And Camelot, and starlit Stonehenge.
and this again from Hardy.
Christmas: 1924

'Peace upon earth!' was said. We sing it,
And pay a million priests to bring it.
After two thousand years of mass
We've got as far as poison-gas.
When Bob Dylan, can write 3 poems as powerful as the above, perhaps he can seriously be considered as a poet in the mean time his award has devalued the prize, on occasions he writes fairly well, but he loves to be unclear in what he is trying to say, as far as i am concerned in his later years he has become an establishment fdolypop singer of a similiar ilk to MacCartney.
his one outstanding song is MASTERS OF WAR, The message is clear,to a lesser extent "times are changing" some of the others are catchy and tuneful but a bit lightweight[ mr tambourine man, boots of spanish leather]
blowing in the wind is pleasant, but lets compare it to where have all the flowers gone[ whose message is absolutely crystal clear] Dylan said about blowin in the wind
There ain't too much I can say about this song except that the answer is blowing in the wind. It ain't in no book or movie or TV show or discussion group. Man, it's in the wind — and it's blowing in the wind. Too many of these hip people are telling me where the answer is but oh I won't believe that. I still say it's in the wind and just like a restless piece of paper it's got to come down some ... But the only trouble is that no one picks up the answer when it comes down so not too many people get to see and know ... and then it flies away. I still say that some of the biggest criminals are those that turn their heads away when they see wrong and know it's wrong. I'm only 21 years old and I know that there's been too many ... You people over 21, you're older and smarter
The above comment is typical Bob Dylan, except that he doesnt mention this his possible inspoiration.
The theme may have been taken from a passage in Woody Guthrie's autobiography, Bound for Glory, in which Guthrie compared his political sensibility to newspapers blowing in the winds of New York City streets and alleys. Dylan was certainly familiar with Guthrie's work; his reading of it had been a major turning point in his intellectual and political development.
neither did Bob Dylan admit for a long time that one verse of dont think twice was borrowed from a singer called Paul Clayton LISTEN TO THIS https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6vxyTM3fO4https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6vxyTM3fO4


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Mrrzy
Date: 19 Oct 16 - 10:30 AM

Absolutely. Not for melody nor singing voice, that's for sure.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 19 Oct 16 - 10:20 AM

A number of poets have already won the Nobel Prize for literature, W.B. Yeats and Pablo Neruda, to name but two .The Category is Literature, that includes poetry....so, from that point of view he won in the right category.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Oct 16 - 10:00 AM

"One of my Favourites is "Changing of the guards". I haven't a clue what it's about, and after all this time,"
so you believe that songs should not be understandable, I disagree with you, I am sure Woody Guthrie would have disagreed with you, so never mind the man that inspired Dylan.
literature does include poetry, but it is more than just poetry. you think he should be awarded it for poetry? then award it for poetruy
a poets award should be for poetry but not literature.becaus personally i dont rate him as a poet either but that is my opinion and we have the right to differ, but to give him an award for literature instead of poetry not appropriate, literature is more than the category poetry.
an awrd for incomprehensible diction, or musical longevity or even song writing or even poetry is in my opinion more appropriate.
my argument is that he has been awarded a prize for the wrong category
personally i think his poetry is ok on occasions but nothing special


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST,Richard
Date: 19 Oct 16 - 04:37 AM

Writing songs and writing poetry are different skills, as has been noted, and that they can all be classed as literature has also been pointed out. For what it's worth, I think the old bugger deserves it. One of my Favourites is "Changing of the guards". I haven't a clue what it's about, and after all this time, I bet Dylan couldn't tell you either. But try singing it - it's brilliant! and I must read some more of Louis Macneice - thanks Allan Conn.
Richard


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Allan Conn
Date: 19 Oct 16 - 04:16 AM

Ooops sorry meant "New Oxford Book Of English Verse" But just also re what makes it into volumes of poetry. Well this poem "Bagpipe Music" by Louis Macneice for me has more in common with Subterranean Homesick Blues or Desolation Row than it has with Shakespeare or Milton!


It's no go the merrygoround, it's no go the rickshaw,
All we want is a limousine and a ticket for the peepshow.
Their knickers are made of crêpe-de-chine, their shoes are made of python,
Their halls are lined with tiger rugs and their walls with heads of bison.

John MacDonald found a corpse, put it under the sofa,
Waited till it came to life and hit it with a poker,
Sold its eyes for souvenirs, sold its blood for whisky,
Kept its bones for dumb-bells to use when he was fifty.

It's no go the Yogi-Man, it's no go Blavatsky,
All we want is a bank balance and a bit of skirt in a taxi.

Annie MacDougall went to milk, caught her foot in the heather,
Woke to hear a dance record playing of Old Vienna.
It's no go your maidenheads, it's no go your culture,
All we want is a Dunlop tyre and the devil mend the puncture.

The Laird o'Phelps spent Hogmanay declaring he was sober,
Counted his feet to prove the fact and found he had one foot over.
Mrs Carmichael had her fifth, looked at the job with repulsion,
Said to the midwife 'Take it away; I'm through with
over-production'.

It's no go the gossip column, it's no go the Ceilidh,
All we want is a mother's help and a sugar-stick for the baby.

Willie Murray cut his thumb, couldn't count the damage,
Took the hide of an Ayrshire cow and used it for a bandage.
His brother caught three hundred cran when the seas were lavish,
Threw the bleeders back in the sea and went upon the parish.

It's no go the Herring Board, it's no go the Bible,
All we want is a packet of fags when our hands are idle.

It's no go the picture palace, it's no go the stadium,
It's no go the country cot with a pot of pink geraniums,
It's no go the Government grants, it's no go the elections,
Sit on your arse for fifty years and hang your hat on a pension.

It's no go my honey love, it's no go my poppet;
Work your hands from day to day, the winds will blow the profit.
The glass is falling hour by hour, the glass will fall forever,
But if you break the bloody glass you won't hold up the weather.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Allan Conn
Date: 19 Oct 16 - 03:57 AM

It is always going to be a matter of personal opinion when it comes to what is and isn't a good song but at least 'for me' the idea that he has only written three or four songs that were either excellent or fairly good is a far bigger joke than him receiving any award. If I could have written dozens of the songs Dylan wrote then I'd be a very happy bunny.

Also the idea that the judges were idiotic and maybe didn't know what they were doing doesn't hold water either. Again all down to taste but as has been previously mentioned Andrew Motion shortly after he became Poet Laureate gave a lecture in which he claimed Dylan was one of the greatest artists of the 20thC and was the writer of the greatest song lyrics ever written. Again all down to taste but are we really going to state that Motion is an idiot for believing that? That one of the most respected modern poets doesn't know anything about verse?

Likewise the idea that lyrics aren't good "if they are unclear as regards meaning" doesn't wash either - it is only personal preference. More obscure verse or abstract verse is a recognised form. In fact in response to Motion's lecture on Dylan the other respected poet Dannie Abse commented that Dylan's work was song lyrics rather than poetry because it was too rational

"For me song lyrics should have something rational about them. That is what distinguishes them from written poetry, which, I think, has something of the irrational about it,"

So I suppose if respected poets can't agree on Dylan then why should we expect old blokes on mudcat to do so???

All in all though I pick up The New English Book Of English Verse which classes itself as "the established classic anthology of English poetry" and it is littered with verse that was written to be sung so the defining line between song and poetry is not as clear as some would suggest. The obvious examples in it are ballads like "Tam Lin" and "Mary Hamilton" but also Burns' song lyrics like "My Love Is Like A Red Red Rose" and "John Anderson". It is not new to regard certain song lyrics as part of the poetry canon.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST,pauperback
Date: 18 Oct 16 - 09:39 PM

Blighty's knickers knotted?

Oh dear so sad. Never mind.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Jeri
Date: 18 Oct 16 - 09:38 PM

Anybody notice it was a literature award, not a songwriting competition? As poetry, MacColl's not even close. Dylan's stuff ranges from image-heavy dreamy stuff to concrete story-telling, and it changed things. I do think he deserved it.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Mrrzy
Date: 18 Oct 16 - 09:26 PM

Which 2?


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Oct 16 - 08:10 PM

I tend to agree. Though we can stay sane by accepting that these things are always a matter of opinion.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Oct 16 - 07:55 PM

I think it id not deserved, in my opinion he has written two excellent songs and a couple of other fairly good ones. in my opinion he has written less good songs, than Ewan MacColl, but really awrding a prize for literature to a song writer is a joke, some of his literature is doggerel, some of his songs are very unclear as regards meaning others like hattie carroll are good subject matter but way too long and are unimginatively constructed, written like a factually accurate list butin need of serious precising and or editing.
By awarding this to Dylan they are devaluing the literature prize, if it was a song writing prize on the strength of at least 3 songs arguably 4, he would be a contender, but not as a poet or a writer of literature, no way, WHO WERE THE IDOITIC JUDGES.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Oct 16 - 05:17 PM

Shane McGowan. Songwriter, poet, survivor.

When it's summer in Siam...

And I was in Almería once again this summer. Churros and coffee for breakfast, then the best indoor food market ever, then olives, padrons, bread and chorizo, washed down with Rioja. You should've been there, Shane!


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Will Fly
Date: 18 Oct 16 - 03:39 PM

Oh well, if he doesn't reply, there's always Randy Newman, Paul Simon, Leonard Cohen... and many others...


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST,LynnH
Date: 18 Oct 16 - 01:32 PM

Interestingly, his Bobness is, by all accounts, playing hard to get. The Nobel Committee is still trying to get in touch with him! Apparently he doesn't neither answers the phone nor calls back.......


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST,AndyL
Date: 18 Oct 16 - 11:22 AM

Well deserved. His early work draws heavily on the Bible as well as on the British/American ballad tradition, Longfellow and other poets, and he's amazingly diverse, mastering and transcending several genres.
When he was young and poor I befriended him following one of his first gigs at Gerdes Folk City in Greenwish Village by giving him a ride in my father's Oldsmobile to his girlfriend's house. "Bobby" also caught the undivided interest of a woman I was interested in, the late traditional singer Hedy West.
PS. I agree that Joni Mitchell's large catalogue of exceptionally well-wrought songs deserves recognition at a similar level, though not necessarily a Nobel.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: voyager
Date: 18 Oct 16 - 09:56 AM

Apropos of nothing (except Mudcat banter about Nobel-Bob) -

And if my thought-dreams could be seen
They'd probably put my head in a guillotine
But it's alright, Ma, it's life, and life only                

It's Alright, Ma (I'm Only Bleeding)


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Oct 16 - 09:34 AM

The only problem with the comparison is that Everest is INDISPUTABLY the greatest mountain in the world.

He said highest, Steve...


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Mr Red
Date: 18 Oct 16 - 08:43 AM

A Harvard professor has been teaching lessons on Dylan and his words for years. This article points out that the announcment came timely for the current class.

NY Time article about Richard F Thomas: Harvard professor


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Oct 16 - 07:26 PM

I'm glad he said pop music. I have a hunch that Dylan would agree with that. The only problem with the comparison is that Everest is INDISPUTABLY the greatest mountain in the world. *





*At least by altitude. I'm rather fond of Penyghent meself...


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 17 Oct 16 - 04:07 PM

I like Leonard Cohen's take on this:

'Leonard Cohen suggested on Thursday that no prizes were necessary to recognise the greatness of the man who transformed pop music with records like Highway 61 Revisited. "To me," he said, "[the Nobel] is like pinning a medal on Mount Everest for being the highest mountain." '


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Mrrzy
Date: 17 Oct 16 - 03:25 PM

There hasn't been much of a reaction by Dylan, apparently he hasn't spoken to the Nobel committee either...


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST,silver
Date: 17 Oct 16 - 07:07 AM

When I first saw it announced, I thought it was a joke. Judging from Mr. Dylan's reaction, or lack of reaction, he thinks so, too.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Mrrzy
Date: 17 Oct 16 - 01:46 AM

And he was the CD in my car the day he was nominated... what taste I have. Who knew.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 16 Oct 16 - 07:15 PM

Well it was our monthly Sunday session this afternoon, and somewhat unusually, we had a lot of Dylan songs, aided and abetted by a couple of books of his lyrics that someone brought along. I sang "Masters of War" which is so very sadly just as relevant today as when it was written: possibly more so with everything that's going on in Syria and the USA at present. A very powerful song.
And I rolled out at 5.15 to the whole assembled company singing "Like Rolling Stone".


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST,stole
Date: 16 Oct 16 - 06:42 PM

deserved. should have been given back in 92. did them a favor in taking it. word


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Mrrzy
Date: 16 Oct 16 - 04:01 PM

And another interesting article from Slate...


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Oct 16 - 03:27 PM

His nomination may be a gift to all those aging hippie people living hand to mouth...eBay


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST,pauperback
Date: 16 Oct 16 - 09:03 AM

Essex bro, maybe he'll turn it down


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Oct 16 - 07:43 AM

I assume that you are using the word "sing" advisedly.

I vaguely recall Dylan in a documentary some years ago dismissing his elevation to some sort of guru or spokesman for his times, complaining that he was just a rock musician. Good to see that he views his achievements with far more accuracy than does his army of sycophants. And I do love "Like a Rolling Stone."


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST,Essex Bor
Date: 16 Oct 16 - 05:44 AM

Zimmer man should get his zimmer and go ans sing his lightweight 'poetry' to those refugees from the sixties in old people home.s


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST,Essex Bor
Date: 16 Oct 16 - 05:40 AM

"BTW, many a great poet/composer took influence from English traditional song. Where do you think Coleridge, Keats, Wordsworth got their inspiration? Vaughan Williams, Butterworth, Elgar, Britten etc"

Wordsworth got his inspiration from many things including daffodils, your post muddies the waters Britten used traditional tunes but did not set any lyrics of any merit to traditional music, mind you Bob Dylans Dream is a forgettable piece of lightweight plagiaristic poppycock.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Acorn4
Date: 15 Oct 16 - 01:42 PM

I think he deserves it for the lyrics of "It's Allright Ma" alone.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Mrrzy
Date: 15 Oct 16 - 01:41 PM

Article by somebody who nominated him back in the '60's... WashPo Blicky.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Jeri
Date: 15 Oct 16 - 01:31 PM

Mr Red, I didn't know that. I LOVE that song!


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