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Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate

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Steve Shaw 11 Dec 16 - 06:38 AM
Will Fly 11 Dec 16 - 06:22 AM
GUEST 11 Dec 16 - 12:16 AM
bobad 10 Dec 16 - 09:41 PM
Steve Shaw 10 Dec 16 - 09:02 PM
bobad 10 Dec 16 - 08:44 PM
bobad 10 Dec 16 - 07:48 PM
bobad 10 Dec 16 - 07:36 PM
Mrrzy 10 Dec 16 - 01:16 PM
Mrrzy 10 Dec 16 - 01:14 PM
Mr Red 17 Nov 16 - 04:17 AM
GUEST,pauperback 16 Nov 16 - 11:52 PM
Steve Shaw 16 Nov 16 - 08:21 PM
Vic Smith 16 Nov 16 - 02:40 PM
Mrrzy 16 Nov 16 - 01:51 PM
Mr Red 06 Nov 16 - 07:06 AM
The Sandman 06 Nov 16 - 05:02 AM
Will Fly 04 Nov 16 - 04:53 PM
The Sandman 04 Nov 16 - 12:38 PM
Vic Smith 04 Nov 16 - 10:19 AM
The Sandman 03 Nov 16 - 02:00 PM
The Sandman 03 Nov 16 - 01:51 PM
Will Fly 03 Nov 16 - 01:31 PM
Vic Smith 03 Nov 16 - 01:24 PM
Will Fly 03 Nov 16 - 01:13 PM
Vic Smith 03 Nov 16 - 12:46 PM
GUEST,pauperback 02 Nov 16 - 04:41 PM
GUEST,pauperback 01 Nov 16 - 08:10 PM
Greg F. 01 Nov 16 - 01:51 PM
GUEST 01 Nov 16 - 12:32 PM
voyager 01 Nov 16 - 09:13 AM
Mr Red 01 Nov 16 - 05:37 AM
Steve Shaw 31 Oct 16 - 07:22 PM
robomatic 31 Oct 16 - 06:26 PM
robomatic 31 Oct 16 - 06:19 PM
Senoufou 31 Oct 16 - 02:39 PM
The Sandman 31 Oct 16 - 02:11 PM
Will Fly 31 Oct 16 - 12:54 PM
meself 31 Oct 16 - 12:42 PM
The Sandman 31 Oct 16 - 12:27 PM
Senoufou 31 Oct 16 - 11:54 AM
Jim Carroll 31 Oct 16 - 11:48 AM
meself 31 Oct 16 - 11:29 AM
meself 31 Oct 16 - 11:02 AM
GUEST 31 Oct 16 - 10:54 AM
Mr Red 31 Oct 16 - 10:08 AM
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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Dec 16 - 06:38 AM

Sock puppetry suspected! (only suspected, mods...) 😂


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Will Fly
Date: 11 Dec 16 - 06:22 AM

What a stupid observation, Bobad. If you happen to like Bob Dylan ad believe in things like Nobel Prizes, then good luck to you. Enjoy them.

As it happens, I couldn't care tuppence about literary prizes, and some of Dylan I like - and some I don't like. So what has any of that got to do with "Brits" and "sour grapes" - and what has it got to do with being "supercilious"?

Just accept that our individual heroes and heroines, if we have any, are just that - individual tastes. No need to open a post with "To all the critics of the choice, etc. etc....".


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Dec 16 - 12:16 AM

Thanks bobad, you are spot on.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: bobad
Date: 10 Dec 16 - 09:41 PM

Oh, give it a rest Shaw, your superciliousness is tiresome.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Dec 16 - 09:02 PM

At some point I should like you to tell us why anyone on the planet, bar a couple of other second-rate songsmiths, would be suffering from sour grapes as a consequence of Bob's award. I really don't give a stuff who awards him what. He's your hero. Great. He's not mine by a long chalk, but as soon as I express criticism I get a ton of schoolyard yah-boo stuff from the likes of you. Too bad. You could conceivably be wrong about him. Has that ever occurred to you?


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: bobad
Date: 10 Dec 16 - 08:44 PM

To all the critics of the choice, especially the sour-grape Brits, this is what the Swedish Academy's literary historian Horace Engdahl had to say about the Committee's selection:


"He gave back to the language of poetry its elevated style, lost since the Romantics," Engdahl said in a speech introducing Dylan's award. "Not to sing of eternities, but to speak of what was happening around us. As if the oracle of Delphi were reading the evening news. Recognizing that revolution by awarding Bob Dylan the Nobel Prize was a decision that seemed daring only beforehand and already seems obvious."

In the face of claims that Dylan was a cheap choice for such a hallowed honor, Engdahl hailed the Minnesota-born songwriter for beating the smart set at its own game—taking an idiom discarded ages ago by the cultural intelligentsia and changing the world with it.

"What brings about the great shifts in the world of literature? Often it is when someone seizes upon a simple, overlooked form, discounted as art in the higher sense, and makes it mutate. Thus, at one point, emerged the modern novel from anecdote and letter, thus arose drama in a new age from high jinx on planks placed on barrels in a marketplace, thus songs in the vernacular dethroned learned Latin poetry…Each time this occurs, our idea of literature changes."

Engdahl called Dylan's rhyming "an alchemical substance that dissolves contexts to create new ones…fusing the languages of the street and the Bible" into songs that beside which "much of the bookish poetry in our world felt anemic.

"The routine song lyrics his colleagues continued to write were like old-fashioned gunpowder following the invention of dynamite."

Engdahl said that Dylan deserved the award for panning "poetry gold" out of the scope of human experience, creating a mosaic of lyrical gems "from what he discovered in heirloom and scrap, in banal rhyme and quick wit, in curses and pious prayers, sweet nothings and crude jokes."

"By means of his oeuvre, Bob Dylan has changed our idea of what poetry can be and how it can work. He is a singer worthy of a place beside the Greeks, beside Ovid, beside the Romantic visionaries, beside the kings and queens of the Blues, beside the forgotten masters of brilliant standards."

Returning his attention to the academy's Dylan detractors, Engdahl bid a gleeful farewell to the old order of things.

"If people in the literary world groan, one must remind them that the gods don't write, they dance and they sing."


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: bobad
Date: 10 Dec 16 - 07:48 PM

Bob Dylan's Nobel Prize in Literature banquet speech as read by United States Ambassador to Sweden Azita Raji:

Good evening, everyone. I extend my warmest greetings to the members of the Swedish Academy and to all of the other distinguished guests in attendance tonight.

I'm sorry I can't be with you in person, but please know that I am most definitely with you in spirit and honored to be receiving such a prestigious prize. Being awarded the Nobel Prize for Literature is something I never could have imagined or seen coming. From an early age, I've been familiar with and reading and absorbing the works of those who were deemed worthy of such a distinction: Kipling, Shaw, Thomas Mann, Pearl Buck, Albert Camus, Hemingway. These giants of literature whose works are taught in the schoolroom, housed in libraries around the world and spoken of in reverent tones have always made a deep impression. That I now join the names on such a list is truly beyond words.

I don't know if these men and women ever thought of the Nobel honor for themselves, but I suppose that anyone writing a book, or a poem, or a play anywhere in the world might harbor that secret dream deep down inside. It's probably buried so deep that they don't even know it's there.

If someone had ever told me that I had the slightest chance of winning the Nobel Prize, I would have to think that I'd have about the same odds as standing on the moon. In fact, during the year I was born and for a few years after, there wasn't anyone in the world who was considered good enough to win this Nobel Prize. So, I recognize that I am in very rare company, to say the least.

I was out on the road when I received this surprising news, and it took me more than a few minutes to properly process it. I began to think about William Shakespeare, the great literary figure. I would reckon he thought of himself as a dramatist. The thought that he was writing literature couldn't have entered his head. His words were written for the stage. Meant to be spoken not read. When he was writing Hamlet, I'm sure he was thinking about a lot of different things: "Who're the right actors for these roles?" "How should this be staged?" "Do I really want to set this in Denmark?" His creative vision and ambitions were no doubt at the forefront of his mind, but there were also more mundane matters to consider and deal with. "Is the financing in place?" "Are there enough good seats for my patrons?" "Where am I going to get a human skull?" I would bet that the farthest thing from Shakespeare's mind was the question "Is this literature?"

When I started writing songs as a teenager, and even as I started to achieve some renown for my abilities, my aspirations for these songs only went so far. I thought they could be heard in coffee houses or bars, maybe later in places like Carnegie Hall, the London Palladium. If I was really dreaming big, maybe I could imagine getting to make a record and then hearing my songs on the radio. That was really the big prize in my mind. Making records and hearing your songs on the radio meant that you were reaching a big audience and that you might get to keep doing what you had set out to do.

Well, I've been doing what I set out to do for a long time, now. I've made dozens of records and played thousands of concerts all around the world. But it's my songs that are at the vital center of almost everything I do. They seemed to have found a place in the lives of many people throughout many different cultures and I'm grateful for that.

But there's one thing I must say. As a performer I've played for 50,000 people and I've played for 50 people and I can tell you that it is harder to play for 50 people. 50,000 people have a singular persona, not so with 50. Each person has an individual, separate identity, a world unto themselves. They can perceive things more clearly. Your honesty and how it relates to the depth of your talent is tried. The fact that the Nobel committee is so small is not lost on me.

But, like Shakespeare, I too am often occupied with the pursuit of my creative endeavors and dealing with all aspects of life's mundane matters. "Who are the best musicians for these songs?" "Am I recording in the right studio?" "Is this song in the right key?" Some things never change, even in 400 years.

Not once have I ever had the time to ask myself, "Are my songs literature?"

So, I do thank the Swedish Academy, both for taking the time to consider that very question, and, ultimately, for providing such a wonderful answer.

My best wishes to you all,

Bob Dylan


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: bobad
Date: 10 Dec 16 - 07:36 PM

Patti Smith accepted the Nobel prize on behalf of Dylan at the awards ceremony in Stockholm. In place of a speech she sang Dylan's "A Hard Rain's A-Gonna Fall".

From the New Yorker:

After the presentation of the Nobel Prize in Medicine, to Yoshinori Ohsumi, the Royal Stockholm Philharmonic Orchestra played Jean Sibelius's "Serenade," from "King Christian II Suite." The measured Swedish commentator who was delivering a polite play-by-play of the proceedings introduced the punk-rock singer Patti Smith by saying, "Soon we will hear music of a different kind. Something that a lot of people probably have heard before." Any haughtiness was surely inadvertent, but there it was: prepare yourselves for a shift toward the popular. Every yahoo on the street knows this one!

Smith was accompanied by the Philharmonic performing a spare and gentle arrangement of Dylan's "A Hard Rain's A-Gonna Fall," orchestrated by Hans Ek, a Swedish conductor. She looked so striking: elegant and calm in a navy blazer and a white collared shirt, her long, silver hair hanging in loose waves, hugging her cheekbones. I started crying almost immediately. She forgot the words to the second verse—or at least became too overwhelmed to voice them—and asked to begin the section again. I cried more. "I'm sorry, I'm so nervous," Smith admitted. The orchestra obliged. The entire performance felt like a fierce and instantaneous corrective to "times like these"—a reiteration of the deep, overwhelming, and practical utility of art to combat pain. In that moment, the mission of the Nobel transcended any of its individual recipients. How plainly glorious to celebrate this work.

Patti Smith - A Hard Rain's A-Gonna Fall


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Mrrzy
Date: 10 Dec 16 - 01:16 PM

Merde alors. It's a nice article in today's WashPo that is available here:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/the-prize-that-bob-dylan-really-deserves/2016/12/09/c92bbeb8-bd70-11e6-91ee-1adddfe36cbe_story.html?hpid=hp_no-name_opinion-card-b%3Ahomepage%2Fstory&utm_term=.0a305956fc03


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Mrrzy
Date: 10 Dec 16 - 01:14 PM

I didn't understand

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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Mr Red
Date: 17 Nov 16 - 04:17 AM

Just read an article that reported how many Dylan references there were in the titles (long titles) of published Scientific papers. About 250 were found, parodies/puns on Dylan lyrics. The same team found 350 ish Beatles references.

It demonstrates that scientists are not all po-faced, and it probably increases readership. Dumbing-down? Yea a bit. But ya gotta laugh.

Smiley face, Smiley face, Singing face. -
Yea Vic, just pointing-out that without telegraphing the joke you come up against those: hard of thinking, hair-trigger people, and they exist a-plenty, even on Mudcat. (excluding me and you, of course).


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST,pauperback
Date: 16 Nov 16 - 11:52 PM

For those interested -

www.salon.com/2003/07/24/masked_anonymous

Steve Shaw - stop that! you'll go blind


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Nov 16 - 08:21 PM

Stop beating around the Bush, Vic...


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Vic Smith
Date: 16 Nov 16 - 02:40 PM

Vic
Smiley Face, Smiley Face, Wink should do it.

Thank you for the tip on how a joke should be indicated on Mudcat ..... or are you just trying to trump my hillarity?


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Mrrzy
Date: 16 Nov 16 - 01:51 PM

Apparently not going to the ceremony... blicky


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Mr Red
Date: 06 Nov 16 - 07:06 AM

Vic
Smiley Face, Smiley Face, Wink should do it.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Nov 16 - 05:02 AM

I have pasted two poems neither of them BobDylan, bet you cant guess who wrote these[ two different aspiring poets
To the Moon

Sail on, as tirelessly as ever,
Above an earth obscured by clouds,
And with your shining glow of silver
Dispel the fog that now abounds.

With languor, bend your lovely neck,
Lean down to earth with tender smile.
Sing lullabies to Mount Kazbek,
Whose glaciers reach for you on high.

But know for certain, he who had
Once been oppressed and cast below,
Can scale the heights of Mount Mtatsminda,
Exalted by undying hope.

Shine on, up in the darkened sky,
Frolic and play with pallid rays,
And, as before, with even light,
Illuminate my fatherland.

I'll bare my breast to you, extend
My arm in joyous greeting, too.
My spirit trembling, once again
I'll glimpse before me the bright moon.

   North country scene:
A hundred leagues locked in ice,
A thousand leagues of whirling snow.
Both sides of the Great Wall
One single white immensity.
The Yellow River's swift current
Is stilled from end to end.
The mountains dance like silver snakes
And the highlands* charge like wax-hued elephants,
Vying with heaven in stature.
On a fine day, the land,
Clad in white, adorned in red,
Grows more enchanting.

This land so rich in beauty
Has made countless heroes bow in homage.
But alas! Chin Shih-huang and Han Wu-ti
Were lacking in literary grace,
And Tang Tai-tsung and Sung Tai-tsu
Had little poetry in their souls;
And Genghis Khan,
Proud Son of Heaven for a day,
Knew only shooting eagles, bow outstretched
All are past and gone!
For truly great men
Look to this age alone.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Will Fly
Date: 04 Nov 16 - 04:53 PM

She's giving me excitations - that's all you need to know, Vic.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Nov 16 - 12:38 PM

Indeed Vic,I must try harder.I will retire to the Dunces Corner.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Vic Smith
Date: 04 Nov 16 - 10:19 AM

There is a possibility, Dick, that I might not have intended to be entirely serious. You must develop the expectation that some of my posts exemplify my attempts at humour.

Meanwhile, I look forward to a learned exposition from my friend, Mr. Fly, on the significance of Good Vibrations.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Nov 16 - 02:00 PM

Hughie Jones wears that kind of cap too.
Ellen Vannen, lyrics are well written and the meaning is clear, so it cant be anything to do with caps.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Nov 16 - 01:51 PM

Derek Brimstone wore the same kind of hat too, does that emphasise stylistic similarity? mind you neither of them have any pretensions to being poets niether have they been awarded laureate prizes, whats the relevance Vic?


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Will Fly
Date: 03 Nov 16 - 01:31 PM

I thank you, Vic!

Good to know that Mr. Leitch is in the same ballpark as Steely Dan - also the name of a vibrator in William Burrough's "The Naked Lunch."

Got a vibrator question? Just ask...

Just saying-ing-ing-ing-g-g-g-g


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Vic Smith
Date: 03 Nov 16 - 01:24 PM

Will Fly - Fountain of Knowledge - Specialised subject - "Popular Music Trivia"!


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Will Fly
Date: 03 Nov 16 - 01:13 PM

Wikipedia:

"In his autobiography Donovan explained "electrical banana" was a reference to a "yellow-coloured vibrator."


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Vic Smith
Date: 03 Nov 16 - 12:46 PM

With all this concentration on the pros and cons of Dylan's lyrics, it is easy to forget the incredible poetic strength of his early rival, Donovan. They even wore the same caps which clearly emphasised their stylistic similarity. However, whilst Dylan's lyrics did scale some climb some mountains, they never reached the Mount Everest heights of Donovan's.
Those of us who were around at the time will remember that huge cultural impact when Mellow Yellow was released as a single and that literary critics were blown away when they had to consider the implications of lyrics like:-
Electrical banana
Is gonna be a sudden craze
Electrical banana
Is bound to be the very next phase.....


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST,pauperback
Date: 02 Nov 16 - 04:41 PM

And ever against eating Cares,        
Lap me in soft Lydian Aires,        
Married to immortal verse        
Such as the meeting soul may pierce        
In notes, with many a winding bout        
Of linckčd sweetnes long drawn out,


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST,pauperback
Date: 01 Nov 16 - 08:10 PM

Shakespeare took us to unpath'd waters, undream'd shores, most certain.

Dylan, to the moon


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Nov 16 - 01:51 PM

Now that he's agreed to attend the ceremony, perhaps he'll perform "Masters Of War".


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Nov 16 - 12:32 PM

voyager,

Quite why you needed to copy and paste something that's been on this site well over a decade, I don't know.

Next time try a link, maybe?


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: voyager
Date: 01 Nov 16 - 09:13 AM

If the audience for this Dylan Nobel laureate thread ('wailing wall') don't object, next year I'll nominate Eric Bogle for the prize. His Dylan parody is timeless and priceless IMHO -

DO YOU KNOW ANY BOB DYLAN?
(Eric Bogle)

At the age of nineteen, I was young, I was keen
And I had just one burning ambition:
To be a folksinger, a dope-smoking swinger
Sing songs that were steeped in tradition
So I bought a guitar and I practiced real hard
I wasn't much good, but I was willin'
Till to my chagrin, my girlfriend came in
And she said: "Can you play any Dylan?"

Ch: I said "No! No! A thousand times no!
I'd rather see my lifeblood spillin'
I'd sing everything, even 'God Save The King'
But I just won't sing any Bob Dylan"

And with my guitar I traveled real far,
Trying to get recognition
I sang 'The Wild Rover' from Dundee to Dover
In pubs, clubs and in seaman's missions (Hullo, sailor)
I travelled the road for seven long years
My pace, it really was killin'
And everywhere I went from Guaya to Gwent
They would say: "Can you play any Dylan?" (Can you?)

Well, I struggled on, but the magic was gone
I only had a deep sense of failure
I thought then I'd go to where all failures go
So I boarded a ship for Australia
When I landed at Sydney the sun it shone down
'Twas a view that was lovely and thrillin'
Till spotting my case with a smile on his face
Custom said: "Can you sing any Dylan?" (man)

And ever since then, again and again,
I've been asked the same bloody question
And I usually reply in me own quiet way
With a totally indecent suggestion
But the last time came on at the local motel
When I had a young girl who was willin'
As she slipped off her dress she said "I'll say yes
If only you sing some Bob Dylan" (Big boy. Big big big boy)

But I tell you my friends, that was the end
Of all my traditional aspirations
If bein' a folkie was gonna cut off my nookie
There was one way to end my frustration
The next night I sang at my local folk club
Where the audience as usual was millin'
Till I took off my coat and I ructured my throat
And I sang just like Bob Dylan:

(sing first verse of "The Times They Are A-Changin'" extremely through
the nose so that no-one understands a word)

Well the audience went wild, mans, womans and childs
And they clapped till their raw hands were bleedin'
And said so to speak that my style was unique
And just what this dreary folk scene was needin'
So all you young folkies who bash out the cart
If you want to attain the top billin'
Just murder good prose and sing through your nose
And then you'll sing just like Bob Dylan.

(sing last line of each verse with heavy accent)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
recorded by Eric Bogle on "In Concert - live" (1985)
copyright Larrikin Music
"Early in my career I got sick of people asking me to sing Bob Dylan songs.
Does he sing any of mine? No. So this protest song was the result."- E.Bogle


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Mr Red
Date: 01 Nov 16 - 05:37 AM

When Kenny Rogers and Lionel Richie were recording, Lionel pointed out a few notes off key that were wrong.
Kenny pointed out that they were not only right, but the emotion was carried almost exclusively by them.

Now leap forward and apply that to the lyrics. What the vituperative of this parish dislike is what IMNSHO is the thing that carries the emotion of the lyric. Its raison dêtre.

Beware "confirmation bias". dislike and bad can be close friends. And the opposite of course.

FWIW I like Dylan's affect on a generation. But as a poet/singer/wrongciter I can only marvel at the man's skill.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Oct 16 - 07:22 PM

As I said a day or three ago, Dick and I have been at loggerheads on several previous occasions and I've already promised to fall out with him again presently. We don't actually need further examples of Dylan's bad lyrics any more, but I'm going to continue to defend Dick in this thread. Whilst it's true that Dick's grammar and punctuation in his posts could occasionally do with a little attention, that does not disqualify him from criticising that of Dylan. There will be fifty thousand footie fans at Anfield this weekend and every one of them will have a fierce opinion of their team, but not one of them can play football like Philippe Coutinho. Many a book written by a professor of music has contained criticism of Beethoven's symphonies, yet not one of those professors could hold a candle to Ludwig's sublime skills. And so on. By insinuating that Dick should be disqualified from criticising Bob, so, by your own measure, YOU should also be disqualified from praising him, because you can't write songs like him. That's clearly ridiculous, but it does shine a light on your attack on Dick.

As for language in songs, Woody wrote "I ain't gonna be treated this way". He wrote "If you ain't got the do-re-mi." He wrote "I just blowed in and I got them dustbowl blues." He wrote "I've been ridin' them fast rattlers, I thought you knowed." Not at all grammatical in the British Empire public school sense, but his speech is people's speech. To me, he was a true poet because of that. I can find poetry in the simplest of his song words because he didn't worry about grammar (though he was in no sense illiterate) but spoke natural speech, what ordinary people speak, the most poetic speech of all. Bob is in no way comparable. He speaks the tortuous language of the "knowing" college graduate in-crowd who loved the fact that they had something that the non-cognescenti "didn't get." Clearly an attitude that has yet to die down.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: robomatic
Date: 31 Oct 16 - 06:26 PM

Talking Woody, Bob, Bruce & Dan Blues
by
Dan Bern

Well, when Woody Guthrie was sick and dying
Bob Dylan visited him as he was lying
In a hospital bed Bob sang him songs
Woody smiled and said I'm glad you come
You belong here
Go forth and be the voice of your generation

Well, above Beverly Hills one night real late
I snuck past a security gate
Parked by a Mercedes Benz
Climbed up a barbed wire fence and over
Couple of scratches, but I'd made it
To the home of Bruce Springsteen

Well, I found the boss asleep in bed
Pillows piled up round his head
I turned on the light took off my coat
Stuck a theromometer down his throat
Said don't talk
You look pale , Boss
Not at all well

I said you look bad and I asked him could he
Think of us as Bob and Woody
I said you just rest your pretty head
As I sing to you in your hospital bed
He said what the hell you talking about
I ain't sick
This ain't a hospital
And how'd you get past the security gate

I said I wrote you a song called Song To Bruce
With a tune I stole from one of yours
To his platinum records next I pointed
Said I just want to be annointed
Springsteen, I wrote you a song
'Bout a funny ol' world that's a coming along
Seems sick and it's tired it's hard and it's torn
It looks like it's dying and it's hardly been born
He started really looking sick
And I stopped singing

Then Patty his wife came in I said jeez
I'm sorry about your husband's incurable disease
I'm here to help any way I can
You know, Woody and Bob, Bruce and Dan
She said honey, what am I hearing?
He said baby, you know I'm in the prime of life
I said down to two million in sales last time out
Read the signs, Patty

He said some people think this record's my best
I said shhhhh, you need your rest
He said there's a madman on the loose
I said Woody and Bob, Dan and Bruce

He sprang out of his bed and said
All right, I've heard enough of this stuff
He grabbed my throat and dragged me hard
Down the hall and through the yard
Suprising strength for a dying man

Well, he threw me out the way I come
Barbed wire scraped my face and thumbs
I've been thinking ever since
Bob and Woody
Dan and the artist formerly known as Prince
Dan and Madonna
Bob and Woody-
Dan and Bob
So long, Bel Air
Howdy, Malibu


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: robomatic
Date: 31 Oct 16 - 06:19 PM

Years ago I took a friend winter camping for his first time and he kept repeating lines from "Isis":

The wind it was howling
The snow was outrageous
We chopped through the night
And we chopped through the dawn
When he died I was hoping
It was not contagious
But I made up my mind
I had to keep on


On the whole, I have personally sung more Paul Simon in the car and more Stan Rogers on the trail.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Senoufou
Date: 31 Oct 16 - 02:39 PM

'Farewell Angelina' is indeed difficult to fathom, but if one just lets it roll around without trying to analyse it, it really does have some power, in my view. The lines 'Just a table standing empty at the edge of the sea' and 'Fifty-two gypsies file past the guards' actually give me a shiver down the spine.

I was condemned (at the age of sixteen) to study, among other stuff, the poetry of Gerard Manley Hopkins at school, for my A level English Literature. I couldn't make head nor tail of the chap. But now, I absolutely love 'The Windhover'. The meaning is less important than the emotions it evokes, and I can appreciate now why GMH is viewed as a great poet.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 Oct 16 - 02:11 PM

its not a question of liking his work, i do like some of his work, the silence is imo probably deafening because they cant explain some of his incomprehensible lyrics, can you? what the feck is he on about in farewell angelina, Will, can you explain.
furthermore randy newman has not been awarded the nobel prize for literature, so what is his relevance?
neither is it a question of justifying his lyrics ,what i am asking for is an explanation. an explanation,Will ,is quite different from a justification.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Will Fly
Date: 31 Oct 16 - 12:54 PM

Dick, rather than constantly banging on about it, why don't you address your query to the Nobel Committee - after all they're the ones who gave him the award. You either like him enough to think the award was justified - or you don't. Better still, drop Bob a line and get him to explain all.

If I was a Dylan fan, which I'm not, I don't think I could be arsed to justify his lyrics. That's probably why the silence is deafening. I happen to be huge fan of Randy Newman's work. I like it very much, but I'm buggered if I'm going to waste time explaining it to people who don't like his work? Why on earth should I?


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: meself
Date: 31 Oct 16 - 12:42 PM

"Maybe I missed something."

Maybe - maybe not. My point was simply that there is nothing wrong in principle with using "bad grammar", especially if you're writing in vernacular.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 Oct 16 - 12:27 PM

I am still waiting for those that think the award is justified to explain the meaning of some of his lyrics, the silence is deafening.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Senoufou
Date: 31 Oct 16 - 11:54 AM

Many acclaimed poets have written in the vernacular over the centuries.
If you want a prime example, just attempt (unless you're a Scot of course!) to read some of Rabbie Burns' stuff!


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Oct 16 - 11:48 AM

"Dylan uses "bad grammar" deliberately and knowingly because he writes in the vernacular of the American working-class"
Does he (not arguing as my knowledge of U.S. vernacular speech is limited to freely available recorded versions - Archie Green, Studs Terkel and Sandy Paton's and others' wonderful Appalachian albums - Ray Hicks, Dillard Chandler....?
Vernacular speech has its own disciplines and logicalities - and certainly, it's own beauty and power - at its best, it is an art form in itself (listen to Sam Larner or Gordon Boswell or Jack Elliot on the Radio Ballads).
For the U.S., try Aunt Mollie Jackson or Nimrod Workman or Texas Gladden - masters?mistresses of the vernacular all.
Dylan's narrative qualities have always struck be as unattractive and somewhat uninteresting.
Maybe I missed something.
It's true that some working class speech can be ugly and dull, but if you are coming at it from the outside you need to present it at its best to make it work
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: meself
Date: 31 Oct 16 - 11:29 AM

Sorry, I can't resist:

Don't Have Any Doubts (the Situation is Satisfactory)

It isn't of any use to sit and wonder why, darling,
If you don't know by now;
It isn't of any use to sit and wonder why, darling,
It would be inappropriate, somehow;
When your rooster crows at the break of dawn,
Look out your window and you won't see me because I'll be gone;
You're the reason I'm travelling away from here;
Don't have any doubts; the situation is satisfactory.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: meself
Date: 31 Oct 16 - 11:02 AM

Just an observation on a minor point that has been raised as a criticism several times: Dylan uses "bad grammar" deliberately and knowingly because he writes in the vernacular of the American working-class/underclass/lower-class/lumpenproletariat/underprivileged/minimally-educated/frontiersman/backwoodsmen/etc. It is not coincidental that the ungrammatical vernacular often has more direct and powerful turns of phrase than does standard English. This is the reason that at least one or two other writers of pop and folk songs have been known, on occasion, to employ grammar and vocabulary that is rather less than acceptable in polite society.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Oct 16 - 10:54 AM

Good Soldier,

I'm sorry, but given the content of many of your posts, criticising bad grammar is ludicrous.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Mr Red
Date: 31 Oct 16 - 10:08 AM

Dylan inspired a generation.

If we all treated one person as a hero we would be fanatics. If Dylan used that position for personal aggrandizement - it would be a religion.

Dylan is above that and he still inspired enough of a generation to qualify for the Nobel Gong if only for that restraint alone.

Kris Kristoffeson has pedegree, a Rhodes Scholar, Merton College Oxford (English Literature). Some pretty emotive songs. But does he compare quite so?
Nah!


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 Oct 16 - 09:22 AM

I have never said i do not like Dylan, whast i have asked for is some kind of serious response to explain some of his lyrics in some of his poorer songs, in order to justify the award,
a result of which I have been subjected to a personal attack from a moderator of this forum, my opinion is that when someone resorts to insults they have lost the argument. .
TimR, I happen to like Masters of War, and AT LEAST three other songs that i think are catchy pop songs, but I do not think it justifies the award.
no one   has been able to explain the lyrics of farewell angelina and some others that i have mentioned. wiggle, like a rolling stone, ballad in plain d, hattie carroll, farewellangelina, either have an unclear message, or are badly written from a technical point of view or have an unimaginative approach,poor rhyming, bad meter, bad grammar that renders the meaning ridiculous[ eg hattie carroll double negatives]


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Oct 16 - 08:26 AM

MacColl's attitude to Dylan was a defensive one and was shared by many others, Lloyd included, in his quiet way
When Lomax visited Britain in the fifties he found a bunch of singers, Ewan and Bert included, singing American songs in phony American accents.   
He remonstrated with them and pointed out the importance of keeping alive their native traditions
With the help of the BBC mopping up campaign of collecting, the situation was turned around - English and Scots singers started to sing English and Scots songs.
Dylan's appearance on the scene gave rise to a #whole batch of Dylan-Doublers and Joanie clones, in my opinion, even a step down from the previous Woodie-Warblers and Huddie-Howlers.
MacColl, Seeger, Bert and others fought the Mid-Atlantic Americanese and dedicated their lives to the exploration of the British and Irish repertoires - Dylan just happened to get in the firing line.
Given the encouragement Ewan gave people like me to develop a lifelong interest in the traditions of these islands, I can forgive his occasional intolerances and excesses.
In the twenty of years I knew Ewan, I never once heard him attack a fellow performer publicly - I can think of plenty who chose to attack him and those who worked with him - those attacks continue over a quarter f a century after his death.
And people squeal about analytical criticism of Bobbie - Come -onnnnn!!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Oct 16 - 05:32 AM

Don't ask me why I think it, but I've always assumed that Jeri is a girl....🤔❓


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Oct 16 - 05:14 AM

I owe you a grovelling apology, Peter. I thought I was talking about someone else and I even had the wrong thread OP in my head when I typed that. Sorry you had to waste time responding to that nonsense. I'm getting old...😳🔫


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