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Stop The Ewan Maccoll Bickering !!!

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GUEST,Henry Piper of Ottery 13 Aug 16 - 05:14 AM
GUEST,PeterC 13 Aug 16 - 05:30 AM
Stanron 13 Aug 16 - 05:48 AM
Jack Blandiver 13 Aug 16 - 05:53 AM
GUEST,Henry Piper of Ottery 13 Aug 16 - 06:10 AM
Iains 13 Aug 16 - 07:50 AM
leeneia 13 Aug 16 - 08:28 AM
GUEST 13 Aug 16 - 09:47 AM
Dave Hanson 13 Aug 16 - 10:07 AM
GUEST,HiLo 13 Aug 16 - 10:20 AM
GUEST 13 Aug 16 - 10:26 AM
GUEST,guest 9.47am 13 Aug 16 - 10:49 AM
Johnny J 13 Aug 16 - 12:46 PM
The Sandman 13 Aug 16 - 01:19 PM
Jim Carroll 13 Aug 16 - 01:33 PM
The Sandman 13 Aug 16 - 01:46 PM
Jim Carroll 13 Aug 16 - 02:03 PM
GUEST 13 Aug 16 - 02:23 PM
Jim Carroll 13 Aug 16 - 02:46 PM
Joe Offer 13 Aug 16 - 04:38 PM
Jim Carroll 14 Aug 16 - 04:45 AM
The Sandman 14 Aug 16 - 06:43 AM
GUEST,Bloke in Groucho mask 14 Aug 16 - 10:36 AM
Steve Gardham 14 Aug 16 - 11:10 AM
GUEST,kenny 14 Aug 16 - 02:29 PM
Jim Carroll 14 Aug 16 - 03:04 PM
GUEST 14 Aug 16 - 03:06 PM
Steve Gardham 14 Aug 16 - 03:39 PM
The Sandman 14 Aug 16 - 04:12 PM
GUEST,Bloke in Groucho Mask 16 Aug 16 - 09:59 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Aug 16 - 11:12 AM
GUEST,Anne Neilson 16 Aug 16 - 12:12 PM
Jim Carroll 16 Aug 16 - 12:59 PM
The Sandman 16 Aug 16 - 01:05 PM
Jim Carroll 16 Aug 16 - 01:35 PM
Joe Offer 16 Aug 16 - 02:04 PM
Jim Carroll 16 Aug 16 - 02:52 PM
GUEST,Anne Neilson 16 Aug 16 - 03:32 PM
GUEST 16 Aug 16 - 03:42 PM
Steve Shaw 16 Aug 16 - 03:52 PM
Jim Carroll 16 Aug 16 - 04:08 PM
GUEST 16 Aug 16 - 04:36 PM
Steve Shaw 16 Aug 16 - 04:59 PM
GUEST,Nick Dow 16 Aug 16 - 05:19 PM
GUEST 16 Aug 16 - 05:20 PM
Steve Shaw 16 Aug 16 - 05:49 PM
Jim Carroll 16 Aug 16 - 08:08 PM
Jim Carroll 16 Aug 16 - 08:10 PM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Aug 16 - 08:34 PM
GUEST,pauperback 16 Aug 16 - 10:45 PM
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Subject: Stop The Ewan Maccoll Bickering !!!
From: GUEST,Henry Piper of Ottery
Date: 13 Aug 16 - 05:14 AM

As a comparative new poster to Mudcat I'm becoming increasingly depressed by the endless bickering and spleen vented by a small group of 'catters, usually the same two or three, who seem to want to play out their own personal enmities at any possible opportunity, and continue to use Ewan Maccoll and his legacy as one of their opportunities to do so.
Why on earth can people not agree that some people liked him and got on well with him, whilst others did not, he was,by all accounts a man of strong and often divisive opinions about both music and politics and one can either agree with them or not, but this endless puerile and at times personal war of words and criticism of others posts does not do credit to anyone involved.
He was undoubtedly a fine songwriter, and although I never saw him perform, I'm told by those who did he was a powerful performer of both his own and traditional songs, who did much to encourage other particularly younger singers to take an interest in and perform the songs of their own region, as well as doing much to organise things in the early days of the revival in the U.K.
Surely this is enough of a legacy for most men. !!.


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Subject: RE: Stop The Ewan Maccoll Bickering !!!
From: GUEST,PeterC
Date: 13 Aug 16 - 05:30 AM

Well said!


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Subject: RE: Stop The Ewan Maccoll Bickering !!!
From: Stanron
Date: 13 Aug 16 - 05:48 AM

And of course the best way to start people to stop bickering about Ewan MacColl is to ask them to stop.


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Subject: RE: Stop The Ewan Maccoll Bickering !!!
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 13 Aug 16 - 05:53 AM

Just don't mention the war. (I mentioned it once, but I think I got away with it...)


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Subject: RE: Stop The Ewan Maccoll Bickering !!!
From: GUEST,Henry Piper of Ottery
Date: 13 Aug 16 - 06:10 AM

Well, you never know its got to be worth trying !!!


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Subject: RE: Stop The Ewan Maccoll Bickering !!!
From: Iains
Date: 13 Aug 16 - 07:50 AM

Well said the piper of Ottery. A discussion is one thing-constant harping and criticism is another.


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Subject: RE: Stop The Ewan Maccoll Bickering !!!
From: leeneia
Date: 13 Aug 16 - 08:28 AM

I agree.


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Subject: RE: Stop The Ewan Maccoll Bickering !!!
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Aug 16 - 09:47 AM

War--the ease with which he apparently evaded the clutches of the police,civil and military,during and after that event makes one wonder who his real "friends" were.


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Subject: RE: Stop The Ewan Maccoll Bickering !!!
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 13 Aug 16 - 10:07 AM

Well here we go Henry, see what you've started.

Dave H


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Subject: RE: Stop The Ewan Maccoll Bickering !!!
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 13 Aug 16 - 10:20 AM

I don't have any strong opinions on McColl. I know he wrote a few good songs but he seems to have achieved god like status in some quarters, I am not sure why . He also gets a lot of attention here, so am I missing something ?


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Subject: RE: Stop The Ewan Maccoll Bickering !!!
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Aug 16 - 10:26 AM

Careful, there's been a long silence on the subject from Cork and Kerry- let's keep it that way or there will be barrel bombs soon


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Subject: RE: Stop The Ewan Maccoll Bickering !!!
From: GUEST,guest 9.47am
Date: 13 Aug 16 - 10:49 AM

They may be on holiday or wordless


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Subject: RE: Stop The Ewan Maccoll Bickering !!!
From: Johnny J
Date: 13 Aug 16 - 12:46 PM

Whatever you say about the man, if it wasn't for him, we'd never have had Kirsty(Nor his other very talented offspring).

https://youtu.be/z-5yQcRh5R0


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Subject: RE: Stop The Ewan Maccoll Bickering !!!
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Aug 16 - 01:19 PM

What prompted this thread?, as far as I am aware there has been no discussion about him for a long time, this looks like an attempt to try and rekindle disagreement, feckin divisive thread.


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Subject: RE: Stop The Ewan Maccoll Bickering !!!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Aug 16 - 01:33 PM

It's interesting, but extremely predictable that, when Maccoll's name come up - out come the necroshobes (the man's been dead for over half a century) all lining up to do a few steps of grave-dancing.
In my experience, the usual suspects are the medeocre-talented whit no feeling for folk song taking out their
mediocrity on somebody who can no longer hit back
I knew and worked with Ewan for over twenty years and was the recipient of his and Peggy's generosity for that length of time - had Ewan handed out a fraction of the vituperation his name still evokes, overwhelmingly from those who had never met him, nor were interested in his work, he might have deserved the kicking he is still getting from the less talented.
As it is, in all the time I knew Ewan I never heard him publicly attack another artist or fellow enthusiast, certainly not in the mean-minded and personal way that it regularly happens.
I've spent the last few years digitising, listing and archiving his talks and seminars, and the two hundred odd-tapes of Critics Group meetings, with the intention of archiving them and passing them on to those who might be interested.
I'm now digising the hundred+ albums the and Peggy made - magical stuff - streets better than the "I don't know what folk-song means and I don't care" school of non-thought.
My memories of Ewan and Peg are of two people who gave up a night a week of their working lives, their time, their knowledge and experience and the use of their home for nearly ten years, to work with younger and less-experienced singers, while the folk-superstars were getting on with their own careers.
Sorry to interrupt - please carry on.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Stop The Ewan Maccoll Bickering !!!
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Aug 16 - 01:46 PM

I did see him perform, I booked Ewan and Peggy AT MY FOLK CLUB, they gave a very good performance.
I also did a support spot for them in an arts centre,AGAIN they were very good.
They were very helpful to a relative of mine allowing him access to their house in Beckenham to research folklore.


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Subject: RE: Stop The Ewan Maccoll Bickering !!!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Aug 16 - 02:03 PM

The thread's fine Dick, it's some of the people that's the trouble.
Hopefully I'll live long enough to take part in a half decent discussion on the subject
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Stop The Ewan Maccoll Bickering !!!
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Aug 16 - 02:23 PM

just wait & see what happens now


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Subject: RE: Stop The Ewan Maccoll Bickering !!!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Aug 16 - 02:46 PM

"just wait & see what happens now"
Hopefully a frank and open discussion, but the betting shop's closed so I wouldn't bet on it
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Stop The Ewan Maccoll Bickering !!!
From: Joe Offer
Date: 13 Aug 16 - 04:38 PM

Damn. I haven't seen a good MacColl bicker here in months. Have I missed something?

All of the messages posted in the 20-year history of Mudcat are readily available for reading, and many of our MacColl threads are crosslinked above (and many of those threads are quite old). Yes, we have had some bickering about MacColl at times in our history, but I haven't noticed anything recently. We do, however, have some regular posters who are prone to bickering. I think it's sour testosterone. Haven't seen them bicker about MacColl lately, though.

-Joe Offer, Mudcat Music Editor-


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Subject: RE: Stop The Ewan Maccoll Bickering !!!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Aug 16 - 04:45 AM

"I haven't seen a good MacColl bicker here in months."
Is there such a thing as a "good" bicker about anybody Joe?
As the OP and many others have said, whether you like MacColl's singing or not, there is no denying that hisw contribution top folk song was outstanding - I can't think of anybody on the scene over the last half century who put the time, effort and thought into the singing, understanding, learning to handle and passing on the music some of us have enjoyed and dedicated ourselves to for most of our lives.
As I saiod, he may not have written much, but the recorded examples of his work with others is phenomenal - and up for grabs to all interested given the right circumstances.
It's always seemed ludicrous to me that the only topics that are no-go areas on a forum that styles itself to be about "Traditional Music and Folklore" are discussions on what constitutes "folk" and "the tradition", and the work of one of the most prolific and most thoughtful and outgoing practitioners of that music - something sadly rotten in this particular 'State of Denmark'.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Stop The Ewan Maccoll Bickering !!!
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Aug 16 - 06:43 AM

I tend to agree, but would feel you could mention Pete Seeger, and A L Lloyd in the same category.
P Seeger may not have been as prolific or as good a songwriter, but as a populariser and performer he reached more people. Lloyds contribution must be on a par. taking into consideration Berts influence on revival singers,
and then evenjust as important is peggy seeger., without whom MacColl would not have been able to have done the radio ballds.


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Subject: RE: Stop The Ewan Maccoll Bickering !!!
From: GUEST,Bloke in Groucho mask
Date: 14 Aug 16 - 10:36 AM

"The man's been dead over half a century."

Are you sure you knew him Jim?

Only he died in 1989 and I last saw him in 1985. Half a century ago was, let me see, when we lifted The World Cup, Sheffield Wednesday came second in the FA Cup Final and yer man wrote Sweet Thames Flow Softly.

I suppose the bickering can come about by differences in opinion over his work, leading to preciousness by those who chipped in to pay for his pedestal versus those who love his talent but don't wish their admiration to go as far as being seen to agree with his less savoury political outlook. I once sang a couple of songs from the radio ballads at a gig and had some prat at the bar assuming I agreed with MacColl's take on Cuba as per Companieros or however you spell the thing.


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Subject: RE: Stop The Ewan Maccoll Bickering !!!
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 14 Aug 16 - 11:10 AM

MacColl, Lloyd, Sharp and many others of great achievement who are no longer with us: Their achievement is obvious, available to all, well-documented and undeniable.

However none of these 3, and many others in a similar category, are flawless or have achieved sainthood. Therefore there is plenty to discuss/debate regarding their legacy. This surely is healthy and to be encouraged, even if it sometimes turns into petty bickering.


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Subject: RE: Stop The Ewan Maccoll Bickering !!!
From: GUEST,kenny
Date: 14 Aug 16 - 02:29 PM

The bickering might stop when people cease posting threads with titles like "Stop the MacColl bickering". We can but hope.


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Subject: RE: Stop The Ewan Maccoll Bickering !!!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Aug 16 - 03:04 PM

"Are you sure you knew him Jim?
Met him after a concert at the MSG in Manchester around 1965 - he asked me to join the Critics Group in 1967 (when I rewired the lights in their maisonette.
Lived with them for a month when I first moved to London and was a member of the Critics group till it broke up.
Pat and I remained friends with Ewan and Peggy after the Group broke up - that included carrying out a six months long interview with Ewan on his ideas on folk-song.
Ewan volunteered to work with our 'London Singers Workshop' for a period and took part in our meetings for about a year.
We stayed in contact with them right up to Ewan's death - Pat went to the funeral - I couldn't get time off work.
Pat and I put together two radio hour-long programmes on Ewan's ideas for Irish radio - they were broadcast around the time of his 100th anniversary - yeah - we met him a couple of times!
"I suppose the bickering can come about by differences in opinion over his work"
Would that where the case - I can't recall a serious discussion on his work - anywhere.
Plenty of gossip about his wartime brush with the law, his (perceived) politics, his name-change and other gossip, but little about him as a creative working artist.
"or have achieved sainthood "
No-one ever suggested they have Steve - they were all flawed human beings who made mistakes - but the barriers put up around discussing Ewan's work has to be experienced to be believed - not least on this forum.
I confess - I loved MacColl's singing - I became a ballad nut on the strength of the 170-odd Child ballads he breathed life into.
But that is totally beside the point.
When asked to hold classes by a number of folkies in the early sixties, he set up a self-help Group which provided an ispirational body of work dealing with every aspect of singing and song - unique, as far as I can see.
I realy don't know of any other major project that did this.
It's still around - mainly locked away on archive shelves - we have it here.
It seems an omission verging on malicious neglect not to use it.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Stop The Ewan Maccoll Bickering !!!
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Aug 16 - 03:06 PM

yes indeed - his version of Tie Me Kangaroo Down Sport alone guarantees him a place in history.


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Subject: RE: Stop The Ewan Maccoll Bickering !!!
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 14 Aug 16 - 03:39 PM

Jim,
I'm sure there are many of us who would dearly like to see this published. What are the chances? How much work would be needed to knock it into publishable shape? When you say on archive shelves, whose archive?

Best wishes,
Steve


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Subject: RE: Stop The Ewan Maccoll Bickering !!!
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Aug 16 - 04:12 PM

Rolf harris wrote tie me down kangaroo sport. as far as i know Ewan MacColl never sang it, perhaps Jim would confirm this.


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Subject: RE: Stop The Ewan Maccoll Bickering !!!
From: GUEST,Bloke in Groucho Mask
Date: 16 Aug 16 - 09:59 AM

You see, it's worth it just to read posts like that.....


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Subject: RE: Stop The Ewan Maccoll Bickering !!!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Aug 16 - 11:12 AM

"When you say on archive shelves, whose archive?"
Sorry Steve - I thought I'd posted this
All the recorded meetings were taken by Charles Parker with the intention of getting secretary (at the Midlands Beeb) to transcribe them - she did a few earlier ones.
Charles continued to retain them (though he didn't record all of them) and, on his death, they were considered part of his personal collection and deposited in The Birmingham Central Library archive (a bit of an archival Black Hole, not easy to access)
Ewan and Peg kept copies of many, which they allowed me to copy for our Manchester Workshop in the late sixties - these ended up in the British Library and, on Ewan's death, everything in their personal collection went to Ruskin College.
Shortly after our move to Ireland, I finally got permission to copy the entire group meetings - 200 plus cassettes (after a fifteen year struggle) - we still have these, along with numerous seminars he and Peggy did - a substantial collection, all in all.
While we were making the two Ewan centenary programmes, Peggy gave us Carte Blanche to make use of everything recorded their home in Beckenham, as we saw fit.
It's always been my intention to make a 'user pack' of some of the basic work the Group did for distribution to anybody who might want to make use of it - voice and singing exercises Ewan's adaptation of Laban's technique on efforts, the work on tone and the use he made of Stanislavski - all pretty ground-breaking stuff.
Made a start several times, but always got interrupted.
That we all live long enough.
" Ewan MacColl never sang it"
Should he have done?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Stop The Ewan Maccoll Bickering !!!
From: GUEST,Anne Neilson
Date: 16 Aug 16 - 12:12 PM

Jim, hearing what you say about the crucial importance of making available archive recordings.

Would it be useful to consider some kind of crowd-funding? [Kist o Riches (archive of the School of Scottish Studies) used Sponsume at one point and I could put you in touch with the chap in charge to discuss the ins and outs.]

I do think it's important to get this material out there -- even if some of the contributors to the various MacColl threads might be disappointed….


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Subject: RE: Stop The Ewan Maccoll Bickering !!!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Aug 16 - 12:59 PM

"Would it be useful to consider some kind of crowd-funding? "
Interesting idea Anne -
Personally, I would do anything necessary without bening funded - part of what I've set myself to do, and it would fit in with everything else I wish to do.
Virtually everything is digitised and listed, still needs indexing properly - but as I have become so familiar with everything we have, I'd probably be able to do this without too much effort.
What I'll do is tidy up the listing and hopefully, discuss it with other interested people to see if there is some way of co-operating.
In the meantime, I'll push on with the user packs and let you have them, if you think they would be of use to your workshop.
Your set-up is exactly what I had in mind for these.
Best
Jim


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Subject: RE: Stop The Ewan Maccoll Bickering !!!
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Aug 16 - 01:05 PM

" Ewan MacColl never sang it"
Should he have done?
Jim Carroll
If he had wanted to, but I think he had better taste.
Jim, my comment was in reply to this
Subject: RE: Stop The Ewan Maccoll Bickering !!!
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Aug 16 - 03:06 PM

yes indeed - his version of Tie Me Kangaroo Down Sport alone guarantees him a place in history.


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Subject: RE: Stop The Ewan Maccoll Bickering !!!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Aug 16 - 01:35 PM

Sorry Dick - missed that
Jim


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Subject: RE: Stop The Ewan Maccoll Bickering !!!
From: Joe Offer
Date: 16 Aug 16 - 02:04 PM

I'd pay good money to hear Ewan MacColl sing "Tie Me Kangaroo Down, Sport." I don't think of MacColl as being a funny man, but something like that would be really funny. Any examples of MacColl being funny?

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: Stop The Ewan Maccoll Bickering !!!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Aug 16 - 02:52 PM

Ewan's metier was humour rather than belly-laughs, though there's an excellent rendition of William McGonagall's Tay Bridge Disaster by him on the Poetry and Song series of Albums.
We have a two hour Critics Group class on Humourous songs - a marvelous example of how serious humour can be.
His Chairlie Plenderleith Highland stories were classics and he wrote a brilliant satire on The British Empire entitled 'Great Grooting Brit and Ha-Muric-Ha' for one of the Festival of Fools (intended to go out on disc but never made it - we have it somewhere)
I have to say, I found some of his attempts to satarise politicians too heavy-handed and unsubtle for my taste (Dracumag springs to mind)
His rendition of the ballad, 'The Duke of Athol's Nurse', remains one of my all-time favourites.
Looked on The web, but can't find the photo of him swinging from a tree by one arm in his back-garden - that's here somewhere too.
He could be very funny when to mood took him, but it's not the thing I tend to remember about him.


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Subject: RE: Stop The Ewan Maccoll Bickering !!!
From: GUEST,Anne Neilson
Date: 16 Aug 16 - 03:32 PM

re. crowd-funding, Jim -- I was thinking more of supporting the cost of copying (to an agreed format) the archive material for an advance payer.

All your previous hard work has, by the sound of it, made the archive material both accessible and usable. Crowd-funding should allow you to send that great stuff to folk who really want it -- as far as I know.
But you would still retain some kind of ultimate right AFAIK.

Worth checking?

I appreciate the generosity of sharing, but perhaps there comes a time when contributors' time should also be acknowledged...


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Subject: RE: Stop The Ewan Maccoll Bickering !!!
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Aug 16 - 03:42 PM

no, he had a lot of positive qualities, but was hardly a bundle of laughs


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Subject: RE: Stop The Ewan Maccoll Bickering !!!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Aug 16 - 03:52 PM

Just tell us who you are, Guest, and stop pissing around like a little kid and being all negative.


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Subject: RE: Stop The Ewan Maccoll Bickering !!!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Aug 16 - 04:08 PM

"Worth checking?"
Well worth checking Anne - I'll get back to you.
To you have an archive attached to your club? Ballad workshop?
I seem to recall hearing you sing some years ago at a club/concert outside Glasgow - East Kilbride maybe?
I was there with bob Blair and Adam McNaughton - I was rewiring Bob and Helen's lighting system at the time.
"but was hardly a bundle of laughs"
Know this from personal experience of course Guest!
Would be happy to exchange experiences, but I won't hold my breath
Ewan and Peggy's 'Muse' albums include some of the best bawdy and erotic material from the Tradition.
The six (I think) annual Festival of Fools shows - all written by him, were unique in their use of politiacal satire,
All a waste of time to someone who appears to have made up their mind.
One of the features of the early revival I enjoyed was both Ewan's and Bert's storytelling - entertaining without being forced and certainly not the tone-deaf wannabe comedians who later infested the scene.
This in one of the songs Ewan and Joan Littlewood recorded for the BBC in the early 1930s - It appeared on 'Saturday Night at the Bull and Mouth - a live recording of an evening at The Singers Club

TH' OWD CHAP CAME OWER THE BANK.   
From the singing of Harold Sladen, Openshaw, Manchester, Easter 1934.

Th' owd chap came ower the bank bawling for his tea
Saw a pair of mucky clogs where his owd clogs should be
Come Here wife, come here wife, what's this here I see,
How come this pair of mucky clogs where my owd clogs should be ?
Oh you owd bugger, you daft bugger, it's plain as plain can be
They're just a couple of pickle jars me owd mam sent to me
Oh I've been ower hills and dales me lass, and many a grassy moor,
But girt hob-nails on pickle jars I've never seen before.

Th' owd chap came ower the bank bawling for his tea
Saw a coat on back o' t' door where his owd coat should be,
Come here wife, come here wife, what's this here I see
How come this coat on t' back o' t' door where my owd coat should be ?
0 you owd bugger, you daft bugger, it's plain as plain can be,
It's just an owd pudding cloth me owd mam sent to me.
Oh I've been ower hills and dales me lass and many a grassy moor.
But buttons on a pudding cloth I've never seen before.

Th' owd chap came ower the bank bawling for his tea
Saw a head on t' pillow where his owd head should be
Come here wife, come here wife, what's this here I see
How come this head on t' pillow where my owd head should be ?
Oh you owd bugger, you daft bugger, it's plain as plain can be
That's just a girt big turnip me owd mam sent to me,
I've been ower hills and dales me lass and many a grassy moor
But a girt big turnip full of teeth I've never seen before.

T' owd chap come ower the bank bawling for his tea
Saw a pair of hairy cods where his owd cods should be
Come here wife, come here wife, what's this here I see
How come this pair of hairy cods where my owd cods should be
Oh you owd bugger, you daft bugger, it's plain as plain can be,
They're just a couple of garden spuds me owd mam sent to me
Oh I've been ower hills and dales me lass and many a grassy moor
But garden spuds with airs on I never saw before.

T' owd chap come ower the bank bawling for his tea
Saw a great big standing prick where his owd prick should be
Come here wife, come here wife, what's this here I see
How come this girt big standing prick where my owd prick should be
Oh you owd bugger, you daft bugger it's plain as plain can be
It's just a home grown carrot me owd mam sent to me
Oh I've been ower hills and dales me lass and manv a grassy moor
But a carrot diggin' a girt big hoyle I never seen before

Now, I've shown you mine, now you show me yours!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Stop The Ewan Maccoll Bickering !!!
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Aug 16 - 04:36 PM

I would suggest you read it again, Shaw- who are you anyway- no I don't really care- my post was by no means negative - I have no intention of saying who I am, it's irrelevant but I did experience Mr MacColl a few times in the 60s.

My last post acknowledged EM had some good qualities (I'd be all in favour of Mr Carroll's aims of preserving EM's legacy) but humour was hardly a major part of the man's persona.
And don't get so shirty, it's only music & no need for abuse.


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Subject: RE: Stop The Ewan Maccoll Bickering !!!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Aug 16 - 04:59 PM

Arrogant bugger. Not surprised you don't want us to know who you are. You are seriously out of kilter with the way the thread is going and I don't care how bloody old you are! 😂


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Subject: RE: Stop The Ewan Maccoll Bickering !!!
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 16 Aug 16 - 05:19 PM

Macoll was a great teacher, songwriter, and singer. He was also an actor and playwright. He has enriched my life in many ways. My only criticisms are that his acting skill spilled over into his singing, which tended to witness him assuming local accents to suit the song. His version of 'The Sheepstealer' was a classic example of this, and is the poorer because of it. I have yet to hear a Scots accent that bears any resemblance to the one he uses in so many of his songs. He was also a Stalinist which may be deeply disturbing to many people. Talking to a member of the Critics one night he said that working with Macoll was like national service. The other worry I have is that while Macoll understood and appreciated traditional folk singing, he entirely missed the point of its context; which in English means that Traditional singers do not have a musical political agenda (but plenty of views though as I found out), do not choose their songs for their antiquity, their relevance within a working class movement, or any other reason than pure love and enjoyment, and a desire to make the listener love the song as much as they do. If some of the singers I have known over the years were to witness Macoll singing sat the wrong way round on a chair with his eyes closed and a hand over one ear, they would probably ask if he had mental health problems and was addicted to singing up his sleeve.
Yes we owe a deep debt to Macoll, but his humourless self appointed Guru approach left me cold. However returning to my view of him as an (over) actor, I think this was just a stage persona he cultivated.
He must have been capable of deep love, look at The first time ever I saw your face..What a heartfelt song! He was capable of paraphrasing wildly turbulent emotions into songs with each line a discussion thread in itself. It was a rare gift, and he has left us with a view of his big heart and warmth with The Joy of Living.
So yes time to stop arguing about him. The demi-god was human and if you don't take offence at the cultivated image, was a man to be respected and admired however irritating you may find him.
Here endeth the lesson brethren, I'll make my way down from the pulpit.


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Subject: RE: Stop The Ewan Maccoll Bickering !!!
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Aug 16 - 05:20 PM

Is there anyone with anything new, different or original to say about the man? ?......Please!


    You're abusing your Guest privileges. Even if you come as a Guest, you should use a consistent name or pseudonym so the rest of us know who we're talking to. If what you have to say is negative, then perhaps you ought to have the courage to tell us who you are.
    -Joe Offer, Mudcat Music Editor-


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Subject: RE: Stop The Ewan Maccoll Bickering !!!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Aug 16 - 05:49 PM

Not you, that's for sure.

I wonder whether he'd still have been a "Stalinist" had he been around today...


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Subject: RE: Stop The Ewan Maccoll Bickering !!!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Aug 16 - 08:08 PM

I can agree with you to a degree Nic - on accents - he had one of the worst Liverpool accents I can ever remember - it didn't happen often, but when it did I wasn't very happy.
His Scots accent was different - he grew up in a Scots household where that was the accent he heard the most so he absorbed it rather than acquired it.
In the period I stayed with them, when he and his mother sat and talked together, I might have been in a Cairo bazaar
He adopted the actors trick of neutralising the Scots accent for an English audience - may not have worked for a Scots audience, but it certainly did for me.
"He was also a Stalinist which may be deeply disturbing to many people"
A complicated one - he was from a generation of Stalinists - my father was one.
I was a wartime baby, and when the bombing of Liverpool became dangerous for my mother, sister and I, he had us moved out to Springfield in Essex - he was a navvy there at the time.
We have a family photograph of a Liverpool Street party to mark the end of the war and across the street is stretched a rope holding up an effigy bearing the inscription, "Good old Uncle Joe", marking the local people's gratitude to Stalin and the Soviet Union's massive sacrifice in W.W.2.
My favourite American writer is John Steinbeck and one of my favourite books is his lesser known, 'In Dubious Battle', written about 'The Party' - an organisation which worked on behalf of the American fruit-pickers - almost certainly the Stalinist Communist Party.
Pete Seeger, Woodie Guthrie, Howard Fast and many, many more - all admirers and supporters of Stalin.
With the comfort of our hindsight, do we not listen to their songs or read their books because of this - do we use their contemporary beliefs to dismiss them as artists?
I don't
At the time I knew Ewan, he would not discuss his party allegiances other than to say he wasn't a member of anything - he was not a party politician, but a humanist who wanted to change the world - I can live with that.
Peter Bellamy came from a Fascist background and his attitude to that as I understood it from the few times I met himt, was ambivalent.
Waddya do?
"Is there anyone with anything new,"
Masses and masses - we haven't scratched the surface - I reckon we have around 250/300 tapes worth here on our shelves alone..
What do you know about his ideas on singing - anything?
Would be interested to know what you claim to though I doubt if you are going to part with it
This seems to be how these threads go - we start to discuss the work and ideas and along trolls a necrophobic troll and (usually deliberately) nauses it up with inanities.
I've yet to meet anyone who actually knew him; few saw him perform in the flesh and he wrote little - so it can't be because you don't like him based on your own experience - so is it his ideas?
Prod a bit and you find that few people have the faintest clue what those ideas are - so you come to the conclusion that it must be ideas in general they don't like.
Now I find that oddly disturbing.
If you are not interested anonymous Guest, why not leave those who are to get on with it, or would that not be fun?
Nick
MacColl sat back-to-front on his chair as part of a relaxation technique - extremely useful but unusable for its links to MacColl - more's the pity
One contributor told the 'hilarious' story of the time MacColl sang at his club, and before the evening started he (the contributor) pinned a stip of paper onto the back of his chair reading "I AM A C****"
Can't remember with the comedian was (I lie - yes I do - he's already posted on this thread)
I really don't know how to deal with that level of mentality - though I do know if MacColl had done it to another fellow performer there'd be weekly folk-masses to damn his eternal soul!!
Now - finished with the ARTHUR 'TWO-SHEDS' JACKSON interlude - does anbody want to discuss MacColl as a creative artist?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Stop The Ewan Maccoll Bickering !!!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Aug 16 - 08:10 PM

Should read - Finchingfield, Essex
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Stop The Ewan Maccoll Bickering !!!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Aug 16 - 08:34 PM

Jim,
Peter Bellamy came from a Fascist background and his attitude to that as I understood it from the few times I met him, was ambivalent.

MGM Lion knew him much better than you and has rebutted your claim.


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Subject: RE: Stop The Ewan Maccoll Bickering !!!
From: GUEST,pauperback
Date: 16 Aug 16 - 10:45 PM

Regarding Joseph Stalin: I remember my Dad referring to him as Uncle Joe also. Of course we had no television set and Beatniks were always hanging around the our back yard.

BTW ~~ Charming stories


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