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BS:Planned Parenthood Shooter-Christian Terrorist?

DMcG 29 Nov 15 - 06:32 PM
Steve Shaw 29 Nov 15 - 06:18 PM
DMcG 29 Nov 15 - 06:03 PM
Steve Shaw 29 Nov 15 - 05:42 PM
DMcG 29 Nov 15 - 05:30 PM
Steve Shaw 29 Nov 15 - 05:10 PM
GUEST,# 29 Nov 15 - 04:47 PM
GUEST,# 29 Nov 15 - 02:20 PM
GUEST,# 29 Nov 15 - 01:38 PM
Mr Red 29 Nov 15 - 01:16 PM
GUEST,Grammar 29 Nov 15 - 11:18 AM
GUEST,# 29 Nov 15 - 11:16 AM
DMcG 29 Nov 15 - 10:55 AM
Greg F. 29 Nov 15 - 10:50 AM
Greg F. 29 Nov 15 - 10:48 AM
DMcG 29 Nov 15 - 10:47 AM
Greg F. 29 Nov 15 - 10:45 AM
DMcG 29 Nov 15 - 10:32 AM
Greg F. 29 Nov 15 - 10:20 AM
DMcG 29 Nov 15 - 10:11 AM
Greg F. 29 Nov 15 - 09:58 AM
DMcG 29 Nov 15 - 09:39 AM
GUEST,Peter Laban 29 Nov 15 - 09:32 AM
DMcG 29 Nov 15 - 08:49 AM
Greg F. 29 Nov 15 - 08:40 AM
Steve Shaw 29 Nov 15 - 06:47 AM
DMcG 29 Nov 15 - 06:34 AM
Jack Campin 29 Nov 15 - 06:26 AM
DMcG 29 Nov 15 - 04:03 AM
EBarnacle 28 Nov 15 - 11:16 PM
Joe Offer 28 Nov 15 - 09:42 PM
Greg F. 28 Nov 15 - 09:31 PM
GUEST,Stim 28 Nov 15 - 08:47 PM
Greg F. 28 Nov 15 - 06:58 PM
Steve Shaw 28 Nov 15 - 06:51 PM
Greg F. 28 Nov 15 - 06:10 PM
GUEST 28 Nov 15 - 05:57 PM
Steve Shaw 28 Nov 15 - 04:58 PM
GUEST 28 Nov 15 - 04:10 PM
Joe Offer 28 Nov 15 - 04:06 PM
Greg F. 28 Nov 15 - 01:49 PM
Steve Shaw 28 Nov 15 - 12:07 PM
Mr Red 28 Nov 15 - 11:29 AM
GUEST,Peter Laban 28 Nov 15 - 10:24 AM
Jim Carroll 28 Nov 15 - 09:37 AM
Greg F. 28 Nov 15 - 09:00 AM
Jack Campin 28 Nov 15 - 08:59 AM
Richard Mellish 28 Nov 15 - 08:55 AM
GUEST,achmelvich 28 Nov 15 - 08:38 AM
Keith A of Hertford 28 Nov 15 - 08:00 AM
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Subject: RE: BS:Planned Parenthood Shooter-Christian Terrorist?
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Nov 15 - 06:32 PM

I agree terrorism is in some sense organised, so one clinic doesn't meet the criteria, any more than one shooter. But if there is some organisation coordinating protests or bussing protesters from one site to another that crosses the line for me. In truth I would prefer a different term: inculcating fear, for example. But none of the obvious alternatives - harassment, bullying and so on - seem strong enough to me.


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Subject: RE: BS:Planned Parenthood Shooter-Christian Terrorist?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Nov 15 - 06:18 PM

I think that protests of any kind outside abortion clinics should be illegal. Terrorism is a word whose meaning has become degraded. Harassment, threatening behaviour and violent attacks by deranged individuals is not what I see as terrorism. Terrorism is a bit more organised than that. And it isn't freedom fighting either. If attacks on women at clinics is organised and planned in advance, then that could be a form of terrorism if violence is intended. Let's just decide what's right and what's wrong. But let's also accept that this thread is about abortion, whether you and the mods like it or not. It was an attack on an abortion clinic. It can either be discussed or not. That's up to the Mudcat powers that be. But, if discussion is allowed, we must be free to discuss where the root of the issue may lie. Sorry to say this, but Christianity in general and Catholicism in particular have a lot to answer for. The only way to make them not answer is to close the thread.


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Subject: RE: BS:Planned Parenthood Shooter-Christian Terrorist?
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Nov 15 - 06:03 PM

Your comments have been noted!

But earlier you will have noticed, I hope, that I consider even non-violent harassment of women attending these clinics to be terrorism. Violent harassment is a more severe form obviously, but as the intention is to induce fear of attending a clinic anywhere violent.or non-violent fit my definition.

Do.you agree, or do you think that is too strong a condemnation?


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Subject: RE: BS:Planned Parenthood Shooter-Christian Terrorist?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Nov 15 - 05:42 PM

OK, I half-promise not to mention her again. You can half-hold me to that. Unfortunately, what I say is true. Catholic teaching, which opposes good sex education, contraception and equality for women, and which, ridiculously, recommends abstinence, might just as well be saying that it positively encourages unwanted pregnancy. Thirty years ago, it was our club, yours and mine. I couldn't stomach that kind of illiberalism, etc., so I got out, but you're still in it. It's your club. Do something about it.


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Subject: RE: BS:Planned Parenthood Shooter-Christian Terrorist?
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Nov 15 - 05:30 PM

The survey took place in the US where most people declare themselves Christian anyway, so the simple raw percentages presented can be misleading. But my guess would be that there wouldn't be very much difference in the ratios across the various religions and none. because for most people the decisions are based on the circumstances they are in.

But please, can we avoid the same old arguments all over again? Let's stick to the Planned Parenthood crimes and it's implications without going over Mother Teresa and all that, having already done so more times than I care to remember.


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Subject: RE: BS:Planned Parenthood Shooter-Christian Terrorist?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Nov 15 - 05:10 PM

Well that's hardly surprising, as just about every Catholic edict supports unwanted pregnancy. Ignorance, mysogyny, abstinence (ha bloody ha), no birth control, not even the withdrawal method. The Catholic Church is the champion of abortion, and their greatest flag-flyer, Mother Teresa, is about to be made a saint.


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Subject: RE: BS:Planned Parenthood Shooter-Christian Terrorist?
From: GUEST,#
Date: 29 Nov 15 - 04:47 PM

An interesting article worth reading.

http://reverbpress.com/religion/abortion-rates-highest-among-christians-according-stunning-survey-results/


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Subject: RE: BS:Planned Parenthood Shooter-Christian Terrorist?
From: GUEST,#
Date: 29 Nov 15 - 02:20 PM

Religious terrorist, compound n. Individual who ascribes his motives to an invisible entity, one to whom he often refers but never introduces in person.

Synonym, see the monograph entitled Recombinant DNA, Gene Splicing and the Social Fallout from Experiments Gone Wrong.


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Subject: RE: BS:Planned Parenthood Shooter-Christian Terrorist?
From: GUEST,#
Date: 29 Nov 15 - 01:38 PM

Terrorist, n. Person with a gun solely distinguishable from another with a gun based on the intended use of the implement. A term popularized by President GW Bush to focus the gaze and attention of the electorate who then willingly funded a vague war on same, much to Richard 'Dick' Cheney's surprise.


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Subject: RE: BS:Planned Parenthood Shooter-Christian Terrorist?
From: Mr Red
Date: 29 Nov 15 - 01:16 PM

But at least they don't have firearms...

Hmmmm sort of! Cranks I might agree with you, except for the fact that it is not impossible to obtain various firearms legally, notably members of shooting clubs and shotguns. I was shocked to see a shop in Barton St Gloucester displaying guns for sail, including (automatic ?) pistols for about 150GBP, in the window. Hardly going to be dummies, might be air pistols but it didn't say so. There were air rifles too.
Barton St has a reputation!

Anyway there are those shockingly young kids guilty of killing, rare but far more shocking because of their lack of responsibility & indiscriminate shooting.

We may feel a bit safer, but there is no room for being smug.


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Subject: RE: BS:Planned Parenthood Shooter-Christian Terrorist?
From: GUEST,Grammar
Date: 29 Nov 15 - 11:18 AM

Penultimate: check a dictionary Greg


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Subject: RE: BS:Planned Parenthood Shooter-Christian Terrorist?
From: GUEST,#
Date: 29 Nov 15 - 11:16 AM

Times have changed. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Whitman . Whitman wasn't once called a terrorist back then. He was called a killer. I think sometimes that our thoughts are formed based on the vocabularies we choose from.


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Subject: RE: BS:Planned Parenthood Shooter-Christian Terrorist?
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Nov 15 - 10:55 AM

So if you're acting alone to commit an act of terrorism, you're not a terrorist.

Fascinating, as Mr. Spock would say.


I will explain. In my view, which may not be everyone's I admit, an act of violence in isolation is not terrorism. The terrorism arises from the implication it can happen again. The Paris attack moves from a vicious act of violence by a few guys to terrorism because there is a group saying whatever you do to the guys doesn't matter: understand that every capital city, every small town, every isolated villages is also under threat. It is creating that dread that is the terrorism. And one guy acting alone who gets caught or killed can't do that.


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Subject: RE: BS:Planned Parenthood Shooter-Christian Terrorist?
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 Nov 15 - 10:50 AM

And, if organised by a Christian group

What in Clapton's name has "a group" got to do with it?

Again, So if you're acting alone to commit an act of terrorism, you're not a terrorist?

Ridiculous.


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Subject: RE: BS:Planned Parenthood Shooter-Christian Terrorist?
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 Nov 15 - 10:48 AM

Correction:

Make that "...Republican presidential candidates and their fellow GOP reptiles WHO CALL THEMSELVES CHRISTIANS AND BRAG ABOUT SAME.."


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Subject: RE: BS:Planned Parenthood Shooter-Christian Terrorist?
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Nov 15 - 10:47 AM

Let me go further. There are people who picket these centres and harangue the women who go to them with the express intentions of making other women fearful to go to them. I have no qualms about saying that is terrorism, even if no actual violence takes place. And, if organised by a Christian group, then I'd willing call that Christian terrorism.


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Subject: RE: BS:Planned Parenthood Shooter-Christian Terrorist?
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 Nov 15 - 10:45 AM

So if you're acting alone to commit an act of terrorism, you're not a terrorist.

Fascinating, as Mr. Spock would say.

that's not really a get-out, because you have made the association.

I'm not looking for a "get-out". Anyone with a modicum of knowledge of the past history of these kinds of terrorist attacks on Planned Parenthood and assassinations of physicians who perform abortions & eyc. by self-styled "Christians" PLUS the recent flood of vicious hate speech by Republican presidential candidates and their fellow GOP reptiles would find it impossible NOT to "make the association".


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Subject: RE: BS:Planned Parenthood Shooter-Christian Terrorist?
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Nov 15 - 10:32 AM

No, I didn't miss the question mark. But as a few of the opening posts point out, that's not really a get-out, because you have made the association.

We could go through the same thing on the word 'terrorist' as well (and did the question mark qualify 'Christian' or 'terrorist'? Who can tell?) I don't think it helpful to call every shooter a terrorist, and although this guy seems to have swallowed the anti-abortion stuff, I have yet to see - and it may come, I can't read everything! - anything to suggest he was more than an individual acting alone.


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Subject: RE: BS:Planned Parenthood Shooter-Christian Terrorist?
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 Nov 15 - 10:20 AM

"When the thread was titled", there was a penultimate question mark. You apparently missed that as well.


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Subject: RE: BS:Planned Parenthood Shooter-Christian Terrorist?
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Nov 15 - 10:11 AM


What's obvious is that there are dead and wounded people, the attack was in fact directed at a Planned Parenthood office and the perp. said "no more body parts".


Agreed. He is a criminal and he is opposed to abortion. Not enough in that say he is a Christian ...


The perp's. ex wife's statement that "He believed wholeheartedly in the Bible," she said. "That's what he always said; he read it cover to cover to cover." would seem pretty conclusive to me - and she a reliable witness.


Now we have some evidence he is a Christian. As I said a post or two above, that was not in the articles I read when I made the post we are talking about, I accepted I hadn't read it and now have and that affects my opinion.

What sort of evidence would you have?
The sort of evidence we have now. Which was not around, as far as I can tell, when the thread was titled.

BUT I am still opposed to leaping to conclusions until such evidence - which we now have - is available.


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Subject: RE: BS:Planned Parenthood Shooter-Christian Terrorist?
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 Nov 15 - 09:58 AM

Too many miscarriages of justice and outbreaks of violence arise because of what seems obvious.

What's obvious is that there are dead and wonded people, the attack was in fact directed at a Planned Parenthood office and the perp. said "no more body parts".

The perp's. ex wife's statement that "He believed wholeheartedly in the Bible," she said. "That's what he always said; he read it cover to cover to cover." would seem pretty conclusive to me - and she a reliable witness.

What sort of evidence would you have?


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Subject: RE: BS:Planned Parenthood Shooter-Christian Terrorist?
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Nov 15 - 09:39 AM

It is the danger of 'it would seem obvious' that concerns me. Too many miscarriages of justice and outbreaks of violence arise because of what seems obvious. Evidence first, then action in my book. Once you have the evidence, it is a different matter.


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Subject: RE: BS:Planned Parenthood Shooter-Christian Terrorist?
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 29 Nov 15 - 09:32 AM

It's all fine to be beating around the bush and taking care being seen as not jumping to conclusions but I think Jack above is pretty much on the mark: it would seem obvious which parties created an atmosphere in which such an attack would seem justified to some.


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Subject: RE: BS:Planned Parenthood Shooter-Christian Terrorist?
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Nov 15 - 08:49 AM

You miss this report?
Yes. Or maybe it hadn't been published when I looked, but either way I hadn't seen it.

I would expect more information on background to come out over time like this. As I said above Maybe he is, maybe not. But making the link in the headline until we know is presumptuous.

We now have some anecdotal evidence he is and no doubt more will arrive. Even so, I still hold it was presumptuous, though there now is accumulating evidence the guess was right.


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Subject: RE: BS:Planned Parenthood Shooter-Christian Terrorist?
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 Nov 15 - 08:40 AM

none of the reports I've seen say he is a practicing Christian

You miss this report?

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/29/us/robert-dear-suspect-in-colorado-killings-preferred-to-be-left-alone.html

The younger Mr. Dear was raised as a Baptist, Ms. Ross[his former wife] said in an interview in Goose Creek, S.C., where she now lives. He was religious but not a regular churchgoer, a believer but not one to harp on religion. "He believed wholeheartedly in the Bible," she said. "That's what he always said; he read it cover to cover to cover."


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Subject: RE: BS:Planned Parenthood Shooter-Christian Terrorist?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Nov 15 - 06:47 AM

"Steve, I'm not sure that outrage is the game to play in this one, despite the fact that there certainly is good cause for outrage. The gun promoters and the anti-abortion people and other right-wingers play that game all the time here in the U.S., to the point where "outrage" has lost its credibility. We get outrage all the time from FoxNews. We have no room for more.

Quiet, steady, rational wisdom - expressed consistently - would seem to be a more effective response. And we do that."

Well yes, but have you got any evidence that this works? Have you read the Guardian piece? The approach isn't working at all well in Colorado by the looks of it. I'm afraid that, from here, it looks like your nation takes a rather weak-kneed approach to powerful lobby groups, whether they be evangelists, gun fanciers, anti-abortionists, big corporations or Israel supporters. The upshot is almost half the country not believing in evolution, gun crime and mass killings out of control, vulnerable women and medical staff under siege in clinics, the most polluting nation on earth per capita and a constant running sore in the Middle East. Not saying that similar issues don't pop up elsewhere.   They do. But from here it's hard to see exactly who's running your country.


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Subject: RE: BS:Planned Parenthood Shooter-Christian Terrorist?
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Nov 15 - 06:34 AM

I don't think we know he's fighting for anything. The threadbare reports we have have say he had shown no interest in the topic beforehand and that he is not coherent now.

Now if the claim was that there were Christian groups that support this sort o action I'd agree, but point out that many Christian s oppose it and many more condemn such violence whatever their other views


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Subject: RE: BS:Planned Parenthood Shooter-Christian Terrorist?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 29 Nov 15 - 06:26 AM

none of the reports I've seen say he is a practicing Christian

It's irrelevant whether he is or not. The ideology he's fighting for is one created and promoted by a Christian faction. He's one of their soldiers.


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Subject: RE: BS:Planned Parenthood Shooter-Christian Terrorist?
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Nov 15 - 04:03 AM

Steve is right in his comment about 'Best to Wait'. There's a lot we don't know. For example, none of the reports I've seen say he is a practicing Christian. Maybe he is, maybe not. But making the link in the headline until we know is presumptuous. Equally, bringing in the GOP (who I don't support at all, by the way), when he seems not to be affliated with any party is too early.

Let's wait for the hearings.


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Subject: RE: BS:Planned Parenthood Shooter-Christian Terrorist?
From: EBarnacle
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 11:16 PM

He is quoted as stating that the [unproven] videos about baby parts [aka fetal tissue] motivated his acts. So far there are two dead [including one peace officer who responded to the call out of an active shooting incident] in this attack.


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Subject: RE: BS:Planned Parenthood Shooter-Christian Terrorist?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 09:42 PM

Steve, I'm not sure that outrage is the game to play in this one, despite the fact that there certainly is good cause for outrage. The gun promoters and the anti-abortion people and other right-wingers play that game all the time here in the U.S., to the point where "outrage" has lost its credibility. We get outrage all the time from FoxNews. We have no room for more.

Quiet, steady, rational wisdom - expressed consistently - would seem to be a more effective response. And we do that.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS:Planned Parenthood Shooter-Christian Terrorist?
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 09:31 PM

"Planned Parenthood Shooting Wasn't the First — And It Won't Be the Last.
The GOP's odious anti-Planned Parenthood rhetoric, done solely for political points, has real-world consequences."

Interesting article Here


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Subject: RE: BS:Planned Parenthood Shooter-Christian Terrorist?
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 08:47 PM

My money is with GregF on this one-I find it a bit annoying that people are trying to discourage the obvious conclusion. The FBI recently sent out warnings that Planned Parenthood Clinics were in danger of terrorist attack, and This is the fifth in assaults on PP clinics since the fraudulent "Baby Parts" video was released this Summer--and it is more likely than not connected--it would be perilous to ignore it.


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Subject: RE: BS:Planned Parenthood Shooter-Christian Terrorist?
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 06:58 PM

There's nothing in the minor incidents in the Times article "Guest" linked to to indicate he's a "nut case" or "mental", any more than a good segment of the population is. I've had neighbors like him & I suspect most people have as well.

What IS apparent is that he was inspired by the lies perpetrated by Carly Fiorina and the rest of the Republican Pcs Of S.

Hope thay're happy


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Subject: RE: BS:Planned Parenthood Shooter-Christian Terrorist?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 06:51 PM

Well, maybe he was just mental or maybe he was a manic anti-abortionist. Time may tell. But there are broader issues, at least two. First, that Colorado seems like bandit country apropos of your gun laws. Second, an abortion clinic has had to turn itself into a fortress. Where's the outrage, yanks, please?


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Subject: RE: BS:Planned Parenthood Shooter-Christian Terrorist?
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 06:10 PM

NBC News
Nov 28 2015, 5:33 pm ET

In one statement, made after the suspect was taken in for questioning, Dear said "no more baby parts" in reference to Planned Parenthood, according to two law enforcement sources with knowledge of the case.


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Subject: RE: BS:Planned Parenthood Shooter-Christian Terrorist?
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 05:57 PM

Wait for what? For his reasoning? The guy is obviously a nut case. Here's some stuff on him from the NY Times


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Subject: RE: BS:Planned Parenthood Shooter-Christian Terrorist?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 04:58 PM

Best to wait.


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Subject: RE: BS:Planned Parenthood Shooter-Christian Terrorist?
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 04:10 PM

'Nothing with him was very cognitive': Details emerge on suspect in Colorado Planned Parenthood killing.


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Subject: RE: BS:Planned Parenthood Shooter-Christian Terrorist?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 04:06 PM

I still haven't seen any information on the shooter. I wonder who he was.
-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Another Christian Terrorist?
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 01:49 PM

...but we have our cranks and bigots on many issues.

But at least they don't have firearms...


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Subject: RE: BS: Another Christian Terrorist?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 12:07 PM

The Guardian report is shocking in the extreme.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another Christian Terrorist?
From: Mr Red
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 11:29 AM

Attorneys and barristers are for ever "asserting" and they are only allowed to ask questions. & they will plead rights. Yea right!

Whatever the motive, the effect is to ally "terrorist" with "christian".

"Planned Parenthood" sounds like there is religion hovering around but who knows? Here in the UK we marvel at the "killing to preserve life" scenario, but we have our cranks and bigots on many issues.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another Christian Terrorist?
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 10:24 AM

Colorado Springs : a playground for pro-life, pro-gun, evangelical christians


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Subject: RE: BS: Another Christian Terrorist?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 09:37 AM

"Some religions certainly. But Buddhism?"
I have had the same regard for Buddhists as I have for Quakers (without accepting their religious beliefs) up to the Myanmar anti-Muslim riots 2013
Since then, I came to the opinion that most religions are capable of intolerance when in the wrong hands.
"Should ISIS execute all those Christian bigots?"
Wonder what promoted this extraordinary suggestion!!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Another Christian Terrorist?
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 09:00 AM

Still, the right-wing Christians, even the non-violent ones, have targeted Planned Parenthood unfairly for decades.

More than that, Carly Fiorina and the rest of the Republican presidential hopefuls (and their fellow-reptiles in Congress) most assuredly have blood on their hands for whipping up hatred by inventing and supporting the current "de-fund Planned Parenthood" campaign based on bogus videos, lies and bullshit, to gain the political support of right-wing lunatics.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another Christian Terrorist?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 08:59 AM

Look at what Buddhist governments have been doing to the Rohingya lately. Or the full-on genocide conducted by the Buddhist regime in Sri Lanka against the Tamil minority.

This was entirely in character with what Buddhism has done any time it was in power. Ashoka was as bloodthirsty as any other Indian king.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another Christian Terrorist?
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 08:55 AM

Jim said
"All religions, by their very nature, are open to abuse, and all the major religions have a track record of terrorism, abuse and persecution going back centuries - Christianity is one of the front runners in the Abuse Stakes historically."

Some religions certainly. But Buddhism?


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Subject: RE: BS: Another Christian Terrorist?
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 08:38 AM

what?


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Subject: RE: BS: Another Christian Terrorist?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 08:00 AM

Obama?


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