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BS: All changed, changed utterly.

GUEST 30 May 15 - 09:51 PM
GUEST,punkfolkrocker 30 May 15 - 09:44 PM
GUEST 30 May 15 - 09:37 PM
GUEST,punkfokrocker 30 May 15 - 09:30 PM
GUEST 30 May 15 - 09:21 PM
GUEST,punkfolkrocker 30 May 15 - 09:18 PM
Steve Shaw 30 May 15 - 09:13 PM
GUEST 30 May 15 - 09:11 PM
Steve Shaw 30 May 15 - 08:59 PM
GUEST 30 May 15 - 08:32 PM
Steve Shaw 30 May 15 - 08:17 PM
GUEST 30 May 15 - 08:05 PM
GUEST 30 May 15 - 07:53 PM
Jim Carroll 30 May 15 - 07:46 PM
Steve Shaw 30 May 15 - 07:45 PM
GUEST 30 May 15 - 07:39 PM
Steve Shaw 30 May 15 - 07:38 PM
Jim Carroll 30 May 15 - 07:34 PM
Steve Shaw 30 May 15 - 07:18 PM
GUEST 30 May 15 - 06:44 PM
Joe Offer 30 May 15 - 06:33 PM
akenaton 30 May 15 - 06:21 PM
Musket 30 May 15 - 06:00 PM
The Sandman 30 May 15 - 05:07 PM
Steve Shaw 30 May 15 - 05:05 PM
Ed T 30 May 15 - 05:01 PM
Ed T 30 May 15 - 04:48 PM
Ed T 30 May 15 - 04:44 PM
GUEST 30 May 15 - 04:29 PM
GUEST 30 May 15 - 04:22 PM
Teribus 30 May 15 - 04:18 PM
GUEST,punkfolkrocker 30 May 15 - 04:12 PM
GUEST,unconcerned 30 May 15 - 04:05 PM
Teribus 30 May 15 - 03:47 PM
Jim Carroll 30 May 15 - 03:38 PM
The Sandman 30 May 15 - 02:32 PM
Joe Offer 30 May 15 - 01:37 PM
frogprince 30 May 15 - 12:21 PM
GUEST 30 May 15 - 09:52 AM
GUEST 30 May 15 - 07:48 AM
GUEST 30 May 15 - 07:43 AM
Musket 30 May 15 - 04:20 AM
Jim Carroll 30 May 15 - 03:56 AM
Dave the Gnome 30 May 15 - 03:47 AM
GUEST,punkfolkrocker 30 May 15 - 02:13 AM
Joe Offer 30 May 15 - 01:58 AM
GUEST,punkfolkrocker 30 May 15 - 01:49 AM
GUEST,punkfolkrocker 30 May 15 - 01:38 AM
Teribus 30 May 15 - 01:15 AM
Joe Offer 29 May 15 - 11:09 PM
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Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: GUEST
Date: 30 May 15 - 09:51 PM

Good one punkie....been there, done that, got the mind fuck.


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Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 May 15 - 09:44 PM

GUEST - don't.. stop that now.. stop messing with my head.. that's creeping me out..

how do I know I don't know you either.. how do I know I truly know myself...

oh fuck... magic mushroom flashbacks... must not look in a mirror.. must not look in a mirror....😨


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Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: GUEST
Date: 30 May 15 - 09:37 PM

btw.. never met a musket, let alone been pals with one...

How would you know, there are at least three of them....maybe more?


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Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: GUEST,punkfokrocker
Date: 30 May 15 - 09:30 PM

ok.. eff off any twat indulging in israel thread creep..

happy now GUEST...


btw.. never met a musket, let alone been pals with one...

but they seem interesting enough to waste some time in matey banter
and rich enough to buy me a a pint and a kebab
if we ever do cross paths socially...


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Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: GUEST
Date: 30 May 15 - 09:21 PM

now eff off out the gay marriage thread to one of the pro/anti Israel threads..

Tell that to your pal one of the Muskets.


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Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 May 15 - 09:18 PM

GUEST - Jesus might forgive you for being a bellend even if we don't...😇

now eff off out the gay marriage thread to one of the pro/anti Israel threads..


punkfolkrocker [quarter jew by blood - that'll be about two and a half pints..]


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Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 May 15 - 09:13 PM

So Musket brings Israeli "terrorism" [sic] into the conversation and when it is challenged you cry troll. Par for the course I guess.

Pedants' corner: if you use [sic] you are quoting the precise expression of a person with the intention of distancing yourself from that particular use of words. Your problem is that the precise expression used by Musket, implied by your [sic], was not what you said it was. He did not, as you assert, say Israeli "terrorism". He said Israeli terrorism. The speech marks are yours alone and have no place alongside your [sic]. I thought I'd just point this out in case there are other uses of English that you don't have the faintest idea about. The word "antisemite", for example. Hope this helps.


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Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: GUEST
Date: 30 May 15 - 09:11 PM

Antisemite.


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Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 May 15 - 08:59 PM

Troll.


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Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: GUEST
Date: 30 May 15 - 08:32 PM

So Musket brings Israeli "terrorism" [sic] into the conversation and when it is challenged you cry troll. Par for the course I guess.


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Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 May 15 - 08:17 PM

Troll.


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Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: GUEST
Date: 30 May 15 - 08:05 PM

And hoe it controls the US government.


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Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: GUEST
Date: 30 May 15 - 07:53 PM

Waiting for you (plural) to start telling us about AIPAC.


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Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 May 15 - 07:46 PM

"That's precisely the kind of shit antisemites like to toss around."
And that's just the kin
d of statement that Anti-Semites hide behind to defend Israeli terrorism
The Jewish people are not responsible for the terrorist acts of the Israeli regime - though people like you appear to be happy to blame them - as the definition says - "Antisemitic".
I still find it disgusting to find apologists for Sabra/Shatila crouching behind the sixx-million dead dead of Auschwitz in defence of their zealotry.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 May 15 - 07:45 PM

Troll. Ignore, folks.


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Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: GUEST
Date: 30 May 15 - 07:39 PM

Israel is a terrorist State with nuclear weapons

That's precisely the kind of shit antisemites like to toss around.


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Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 May 15 - 07:38 PM

Not much of an advert for Christianity, is he, Jim?


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Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 May 15 - 07:34 PM

"Jew haters like to pretend otherwise."
Those who equate criticism of Israel with hating the Jews are Antisemitic
"Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the state of Israel.
However, criticism of Israel similar to that leveled against any other country cannot be regarded as antisemitic."
European forum on Antisemitism
Israel is a terrorist State with nuclear weapons - be afraid - very afraid, anonymous guest.
"Jim, I think you are a dogmatic dodo.,"
And you are noted as an ill-mannered lout
" can I remind YOU, that you TOO have had your MOUTH kicked off one forum for your ill-mannered "
Pure invention - have never been disbarred from any forum in my life.
"im Carroll apart from what you say about traditional folk music - you son are a complete and utter f**king idiot, the most intolerant person I have ever encountered and the worst bigot I have ever come across."
Hm....
Coming from who it does, and thelanguage it is framed in, I'll take that as a compliment - when in doubt, go silent for a while, then sling abuse.
I take it you're not goinfg to qualify how we have all received our morals and ethics from the church then? - you have my arguments - bigoted or not, answer them rather than rsorting to name-calling - any schoolboy can do that (church influenced or not)
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 May 15 - 07:18 PM

That is a particularly nasty troll post. If you know any Jew-haters, go and sort them out. You won't find any here. You will find critics of some of the actions of the Israeli regime, of course. You need a crash course in learning to tell the difference.


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Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: GUEST
Date: 30 May 15 - 06:44 PM

Israeli terrorism

No such thing.
Israel is a victim of terrorism.
Jew haters like to pretend otherwise.


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Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: Joe Offer
Date: 30 May 15 - 06:33 PM

Teribus says: All depends Joe on which end of the stick you are on. It (morality) is not a personal choice, community has to decide what is right and what is wrong, it is a consensus thing

That's true, Teribus...to a point. But when conduct has no effect on the community, then the community should have no right to govern conduct. Gay marriage has little or no effect on the general community, especially since most civilized nations have already declared gay sex to be legal.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: akenaton
Date: 30 May 15 - 06:21 PM

"sanctimonious sod"......poor choice of insults from Team musket I think...   :0)


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Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: Musket
Date: 30 May 15 - 06:00 PM

I never got a moral compass from superstition Terribulus. Neither did my family.

There again, unlike you, we never saw Israeli terrorism as legitimate. We never equate religion with tolerance. We never fawned over Th*tcher.

We are better than you. Go fucking pray, sanctimonious sod.


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Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 May 15 - 05:07 PM

Jim, I think you are a dogmatic dodo., That is my opinion, I am entitled to an opinion, same as anyone else.
Jim, can I remind YOU, that you TOO have had your MOUTH kicked off one forum for your ill-mannered behaviour,go and play with the dinosaurs in your folk museum.


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Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 May 15 - 05:05 PM

So now we know. Teribus, Mr Irritable Xenophobe himself, got the values we all so admire from Christianity. I'm tempted to say I knew it, but I actually do know some quite nice people with Christian values. Nice one, Billyboy!


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Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: Ed T
Date: 30 May 15 - 05:01 PM

The Quackers, in the USA and in Britain had a major impact on laws ending slavery. The link is some USA information that indicates some initiatives were going on very early to put an end to slavery


USA and slavery 


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Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: Ed T
Date: 30 May 15 - 04:48 PM

Additional information on slavery from the same web site:


Why was Slavery finally abolished in the British Empire? 


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Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: Ed T
Date: 30 May 15 - 04:44 PM

""But not until after it had funded the industrial revolution and the capacity to continue with the imperialism.""

Information in this link seems to support the above statement?

Britain and slavery 


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Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: GUEST
Date: 30 May 15 - 04:29 PM

IIRC we were the world leaders in the only serious attempt that has been made to eradicate it.

But not until after it had funded the industrial revolution and the capacity to continue with the imperialism.


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Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: GUEST
Date: 30 May 15 - 04:22 PM

You forgot to include imperialism and the slave trade.

Yes, you are right, those are two of the major reasons that refugees give for why they are flocking to western countries.


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Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: Teribus
Date: 30 May 15 - 04:18 PM

" imperialism and the slave trade.???

We were not unique in the former (Our "Empire being based upon trade not conquest) and as for the "slave trade" - IIRC we were the world leaders in the only serious attempt that has been made to eradicate it.


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Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 May 15 - 04:12 PM

Teribus - well I can easily think of people who would be a far worse prime minister than me...😱


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Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: GUEST,unconcerned
Date: 30 May 15 - 04:05 PM

the benefits that our culture, freedoms, tolerance and prosperity and RELIGION have given us.

You forgot to include imperialism and the slave trade.


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Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: Teribus
Date: 30 May 15 - 03:47 PM

"How has the rest of the world coped without it.."

Rather poorer than we have judging by the thousands from other lands trying to get their share of the benefits that our culture, freedoms, tolerance and prosperity and RELIGION have given us.

"Church in Sunday School "

I went once [can't remember why] thought it was uncomfortably twee bollocks, and never went again...

Then again, I also resisted attempts to recruit me into the cubs and scouts, because even at such a young age I thought they were a suspiciously dodgy bunch....😟"


Which is all part and parcel of what made you the well loved and universally respected member of society that you are today PFR - very much surprised that you have not been asked to become our country's next Prime Minister.

"I like to think that "right" and "wrong" can be determined by logic. Moral codes from churches can be helpful input, I suppose, but I think most of us figure out such things for ourselves." - Joe Offer

All depends Joe on which end of the stick you are on. It is not a personal choice, community has to decide what is right and what is wrong, it is a consensus thing - in the case of Western European civilisation it is based on the teachings of Christ. Elsewhere in the world other religions provided the teaching - don't know about you but I have have yet to hear about hundreds of thousands of "refugees" trying to enter any Islamic Republic, or any country where any other religion has provided the moral compass as to how things are governed.

Ehmm DTG "Your implication is that anyone who has not had christian teaching does not know the difference between good and evil. What a load of tosh."

Not my implication at all - I am only referring to what it was that provided the moral compass within the British Isles - basically couldn't give a F**K about anywhere else I am NOT fighting to get into any of those countries as an immigrant illegal or otherwise - so our "Christian based civilisation" based upon "Christian Principles" of fairness, equality and tolerance ain't really that bad - at least it is a damned sight better than what passes for life in the countries these people are fleeing from. By the by DtG your parents, their parents and those who went before them would proudly declare themselves as followers of the Christian religion - THAT IS WHERE YOU GOT YOUR MORAL COMPASS FROM.

Jim Carroll apart from what you say about traditional folk music - you son are a complete and utter f**king idiot, the most intolerant person I have ever encountered and the worst bigot I have ever come across.


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Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 May 15 - 03:38 PM

" is there any chance of negotiating with them, of establishing any sort of peaceful relationship with them?"
Some peopel Joe - but we seem to have an abudance of non-negotiables here - a prime example above.
"Winning battles isn't all it's cracked up to be"
Don't know if you're referring to me - not on my agenda - I leave that to those who keep claiming to have "won" something - easily checked.
"the proposed change is presented reasonably and diplomatically."
They've taken a long time in coming - homosexuality was a crime up to the nineties, and your church still refuses to accept it.
Once more you chose to distort my position, despite my having stated my case innumerable times
ONE MORE TIME - I do not hate Christianity - in many ways, I find it quite attractive when approached as a philosophy.
What I "hate" is a church that has has used the position it holds to abuse, persecute and dominate its own flock - still happening in the case of Gays

It's more than a little dishonest to hide behind religion to defend abuses that are so well-known and accepted that they have all but toppled the Church from the position it once held
You put that down to Christianity if you wish - I don't.
" give it a break, you dogmatic dodo"
I don't know who you think you are Dick, but can I remind you you that you've had your arse kicked off one forum for your ill-mannered behaviour and the way you're going, you'll end up the same here - learn how to address people and if you have a point, make it - don't you dare attempt to psychoananlyse me.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 May 15 - 02:32 PM

I agree with Joe.
"The Famine hit this part of Ireland extremely badly, and at the height of it, Protestant preachers moved in and set up schools.
They offered soup to their pupils on the condition that they changed their religion - those that wouldn't were turned away.
'Souper' schools existed all over Ireland throughout The Famine and examples of similar behaviour are to be found in other parts of The British Empire - humane - tolerant - compassionate? - don't think so, but it was the remnants of that Empire that influenced my generation when we were growing up."
whatever influenced you, made you very bitter and very dogmatic, give it a break, you dogmatic dodo


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Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: Joe Offer
Date: 30 May 15 - 01:37 PM

Jim, when you so soundly condemn people for the inhumanity, intolerance, self interest, subservience to injustice.... on display in some of these discussions - is there any chance of negotiating with them, of establishing any sort of peaceful relationship with them?

That's my point, same with the cake thing. Winning battles isn't all it's cracked up to be, because it rarely brings peace and harmony.

And you and so many others here reject the support of people who believe in winning by means other than battle - by conciliatory means, if possible. That rejection of all but the most stalwart supporters is self-defeating, I think. You end up being right, but you haven't solved the problem you're confronting.

I think the reason why gay marriage has become acceptable so quickly, is that most people are people of good will who will do what they think is fair - if the proposed change is presented reasonably and diplomatically.

In the end, I think it was fair-minded people who have (for the most part) resolved the problem of racial discrimination. It wasn't the aggressive tactics of the true-believers - it was the innate fair-mindedness of ordinary people. And I think the same is true for gay marriage in Ireland. This wasn't people hating Christianity - it was people voting for what they thought was fair, to allow other people to marry whomever they choose.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: frogprince
Date: 30 May 15 - 12:21 PM

"Might was right BC."

Taking the Bible literally, the 10 commandments date to about 1450 BC. Scholarship generally dates them to at least about 600 BC, possibly considerably earlier. Which makes the statement about B-C-morality absurd from even a Christian fundamentalist viewpoint, without even mentioning the best of other cultures from well before Jesus.


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Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: GUEST
Date: 30 May 15 - 09:52 AM

Was there a religious right, BC?
If so, few likely survived who disagreed with it.


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Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: GUEST
Date: 30 May 15 - 07:48 AM

Might was right BC.


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Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: GUEST
Date: 30 May 15 - 07:43 AM

Was there no right and no wrong BC?


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Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: Musket
Date: 30 May 15 - 04:20 AM

Let's see.. When we were small, we all played together in our street as I recall. Then the four kids whose parents ran the local pub went to bible classes at their local Catholic Church and were told that the non Catholic kids' parents were responsible for killing young men "back in Ireland." For a while our friends wouldn't play with us.

The good news is that the disgraceful priest lost a whole family from his flock and all four must be grandparents by now.

Terribulus must watch those documentaries of Attemborough filming family units of apes, looking after the whole community, working as a unit and reading the bible before flinging shit at each other...   Altruism. I think Darwin said something about it as a survival tactic.


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Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 May 15 - 03:56 AM

"Nobody is as bad as you describe people so often and so broadly. Not even you are that bad."
No one individual maybe Joe - thought a case can be made.....
But they are all aspects of '(in)humanity' that have appeared in some of the arguments on this forum at one time or another - suggest you tiptoe through some of the discussions on chemical weapons, The Middle East, The Irish Famine, Travellers or Ireland sometime.
"I like to think that "right" and "wrong" can be determined by logic"
Agreement at last - of course they can.
Such qualities cannot be taught - they are part of human development, acquired over time through environment, experience and contact with others
Who on earth is going to accept brotherly love from teachers who try to beat it into you, or thou shalt not kill from an organisation that sends generations of young people to war, or blesses bombs....?
It is nonsense to suggest that such teaching produces the humanity or compassion that I associate with being human.
Down the road a mile from here is a Georgian building, 'Ball's School', (now a still tyre changing business) still know under this name locally for it's history.
The Famine hit this part of Ireland extremely badly, and at the height of it, Protestant preachers moved in and set up schools.
They offered soup to their pupils on the condition that they changed their religion - those that wouldn't were turned away.
'Souper' schools existed all over Ireland throughout The Famine and examples of similar behaviour are to be found in other parts of The British Empire - humane - tolerant - compassionate? - don't think so, but it was the remnants of that Empire that influenced my generation when we were growing up.
You become what you are by experience, not in the classroom.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 May 15 - 03:47 AM

who was it taught you what was "right" and what was "wrong"? What was good and what was "evil"

My Mother and Father of course. And they were taught by their parents and they by their parents and so on. Until I was older I had no idea of the concept of god or a higher deity apart from what I was told and what my little mind could figure out itself, incorrectly. I suspect everyone is the same. When I was naughty I was not punished by god, I was punished by mt parents. When I was good it was they who gave me rewards, not a man in a frock. And it was they who gave gave me love and shelter, not the church. Nothing whatsoever to do with religion. My concepts of good and bad were formed long before I had any idea of the metaphysical. As, I suspect, were everyones.

Your implication is that anyone who has not had christian teaching does not know the difference between good and evil. What a load of tosh.

Joe - Well said.


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Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 May 15 - 02:13 AM

oh... and.. Teribus - I just checked the calendar...

It's 2015 where most of us live... not 1915.....😬


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Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: Joe Offer
Date: 30 May 15 - 01:58 AM

I like to think that "right" and "wrong" can be determined by logic. Moral codes from churches can be helpful input, I suppose, but I think most of us figure out such things for ourselves.

The Golden Rule (do unto others...) is a very good general principle for living, but I think it's more common sense than religious dictate. I think that we do good works because there is satisfaction in goodness - not because it's what somebody else told us to do.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 May 15 - 01:49 AM

btw..

"You, like everyone else would have been taught by your parents, primarily your Mother,
then by the Church in Sunday School "

I went once [can't remember why] thought it was uncomfortably twee bollocks, and never went again...

Then again, I also resisted attempts to recruit me into the cubs and scouts,
because even at such a young age
I thought they were a suspiciously dodgy bunch....😟


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Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 May 15 - 01:38 AM

Well.. there's a neat historical summary
of the inescapable all engulfing suffocating domination of christianity...

How has the rest of the world coped without it..

Pity all those Chinese and other alien uncivilised cultures
with absolutely no sense of right or wrong...!!!??? 😧


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Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: Teribus
Date: 30 May 15 - 01:15 AM

"Knowing what is good and bad has nothing to do with Christianity"

OK then Gnome I will ask you the same question I asked Jim - who was it taught you what was "right" and what was "wrong"? What was good and what was "evil" Unless of course you are trying to tell us that you popped out of the womb inherently aware of those concepts.

You, like everyone else would have been taught by your parents, primarily your Mother, then by the Church in Sunday School and then at School. IIRC your parents, or at least one of them is/was Polish who came to the UK to fight the Nazis - if so then the chances are that he would have been brought up himself and taught the values and concepts we are talking about within the strict teachings of the Roman Catholic Church which was and still is very strong in Poland - it was after all one of the institutions, along with the "Solidarity" Movement that helped to bring down communist domination of the country in the 1980s.

And as you brought it up, over 2000 and more years ago Gnome, in these islands, the guy who wielded the club, axe, or sword the best dictated what was right and what was wrong, what was acceptable and what was not and it changed as those men died and were succeeded by others. Then as time passed and invasion followed invasion those invading brought in their own "rules" and imposed them on the indigenous population. The first time there was ever any thread of common understanding on what was "good" and what was "evil" came about with the spread of Christianity within the Roman Empire and beyond it.


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Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: Joe Offer
Date: 29 May 15 - 11:09 PM

Jim Carroll sez: the inhumanity, intolerance, self interest, subservience to injustice.... on display in some of these discussion.

Jim, your dramatic condemnations of nearly everyone are really quite preposterous. Nobody is as bad as you describe people so often and so broadly. Not even you are that bad.

-Joe Offer-


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Mudcat time: 19 October 9:14 PM EDT

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