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BS: All changed, changed utterly.

Fergie 23 May 15 - 07:34 AM
Jim Carroll 23 May 15 - 07:47 AM
GUEST 23 May 15 - 07:48 AM
GUEST,Peter Laban 23 May 15 - 07:48 AM
GUEST,Peter Laban 23 May 15 - 07:52 AM
Ed T 23 May 15 - 08:17 AM
GUEST,gillymor 23 May 15 - 09:18 AM
Steve Shaw 23 May 15 - 10:15 AM
Musket 23 May 15 - 10:16 AM
GUEST,punkfolkrocker 🍰 23 May 15 - 10:30 AM
Steve Shaw 23 May 15 - 10:32 AM
GUEST,HiLo 23 May 15 - 10:34 AM
Musket 23 May 15 - 10:39 AM
GUEST,# 23 May 15 - 10:59 AM
Ed T 23 May 15 - 11:09 AM
GUEST,# 23 May 15 - 11:17 AM
GUEST,Peter Laban 23 May 15 - 11:19 AM
Backwoodsman 23 May 15 - 11:20 AM
Stilly River Sage 23 May 15 - 11:20 AM
Bill D 23 May 15 - 11:29 AM
Sandra in Sydney 23 May 15 - 11:31 AM
Dave the Gnome 23 May 15 - 11:45 AM
Steve Shaw 23 May 15 - 11:51 AM
GUEST,leeneia 23 May 15 - 11:55 AM
GUEST,punkfolkrocker 23 May 15 - 11:56 AM
Steve Shaw 23 May 15 - 11:58 AM
Backwoodsman 23 May 15 - 12:07 PM
Jim Carroll 23 May 15 - 12:10 PM
GUEST,Fred McCormick 23 May 15 - 12:49 PM
Jim Carroll 23 May 15 - 01:10 PM
GUEST 23 May 15 - 01:39 PM
GUEST,Peter Laban 23 May 15 - 02:06 PM
akenaton 23 May 15 - 02:08 PM
Stilly River Sage 23 May 15 - 02:17 PM
Ed T 23 May 15 - 02:24 PM
Jack Campin 23 May 15 - 02:24 PM
GUEST,HiLo 23 May 15 - 02:25 PM
Ed T 23 May 15 - 02:31 PM
Fergie 23 May 15 - 02:31 PM
GUEST,punkfolkrocker 23 May 15 - 02:50 PM
akenaton 23 May 15 - 02:51 PM
Keith A of Hertford 23 May 15 - 02:52 PM
akenaton 23 May 15 - 02:57 PM
Fergie 23 May 15 - 03:06 PM
Jim Carroll 23 May 15 - 03:19 PM
Jim Carroll 23 May 15 - 03:27 PM
Jim Carroll 23 May 15 - 03:42 PM
Ed T 23 May 15 - 03:51 PM
Joe Offer 23 May 15 - 04:31 PM
Fergie 23 May 15 - 04:37 PM
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Subject: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: Fergie
Date: 23 May 15 - 07:34 AM

Ireland has voted in huge numbers in the marriage-equality referendum and the result is an overwhelming YES. The power of the Irish Catholic Church to control the political landscape in the Republic of Ireland is over and I for one am delighted on both counts.

Ireland has become the first country in the world to introduce marriage-equality through a democratic referendum of all it's people.

The changes that have been wrought in social attitudes in this country over the past twenty five years are astounding and I am proud to be of a generation that have shaken off the shackles of religious control that stifled the democratic process in this country for generations.


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Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 May 15 - 07:47 AM

Great news - hopefully the 2/3 to 1 majority will be confirmed.
Interesting result for the other referendum - have to say, I wasn't looking forwards to the presidential limousine doing wheelies up and down our road
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: GUEST
Date: 23 May 15 - 07:48 AM

Here is one Irish Catholic couple, married nearly fifty years, who voted yes:

"We are Catholics, and we are taught to believe in compassion and love and fairness and inclusion. Equality, that's all we're voting for."

Brighid and Paddy Whyte


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Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 23 May 15 - 07:48 AM

The country did itself proud. It's a good day.


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Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 23 May 15 - 07:52 AM

As an aside: got a great chuckle out of this one :

Breda O'Brien arrested attempting to burn local ballor box


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Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: Ed T
Date: 23 May 15 - 08:17 AM

After many years of discrimination, followed by small and big gains, in 2005, Canada became the fourth country worldwide to legalize same-sex marriage. Big gains have evolved in equality for all citizens, internationally, since then. Hopefully, Ireland joins the compassionate countries of the world. A bit of discrimination history,in the link below.


Canada and same sex marriage 


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Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: GUEST,gillymor
Date: 23 May 15 - 09:18 AM

Good news for civilization! We'll be celebrating tonight with Powers and Guinness and Irish tunes and songs.


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Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 May 15 - 10:15 AM

Great. The sun's out today for once and this news is ,er, the icing on the cake...


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Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: Musket
Date: 23 May 15 - 10:16 AM

Evolution in action. The good people of Ireland have shown the world what we really knew all along. Tolerance, equality and respect. Three aspects of the people I found during my time living just outside Dublin and indeed ever since.


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Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker 🍰
Date: 23 May 15 - 10:30 AM

I don't know if my recently deceased gay activist sibling believed in heaven..
but there may very well be some very jubilant high-energy dancing going on right at his moment... 😎



[Perhaps in celebration closer to earth, the mod who deleted the cake thread,
could swallow his/her pride as a celebratory gesture of goodwill
and restore it merely as "This thread is closed" ???]


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Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 May 15 - 10:32 AM

Yeah, I agree with that. It was my bloody thread and I hardly ever start threads!


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Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 23 May 15 - 10:34 AM

Wonderful result, a true cause to celebrate.


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Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: Musket
Date: 23 May 15 - 10:39 AM

All this equality eh? Perhaps the mods might realise there is safety in numbers and start batting for the winning side?

The story above about the woman trying to set fire to a ballot box whilst waving a crucifix was rather funny. Letting her go without charge was an excellent gesture in the spirit of tolerance as there was no harm done. But a story in the press laughing at bigotry made it a result anyway.


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Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: GUEST,#
Date: 23 May 15 - 10:59 AM

It's about time.


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Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: Ed T
Date: 23 May 15 - 11:09 AM

"The sun's out today"- and the sky is not falling.


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Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: GUEST,#
Date: 23 May 15 - 11:17 AM

For any people who still see homosexuality as a lifestyle choice or a matter of choice at all I'd recommend reading "We Are Our Brains" by DF Swaab.


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Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 23 May 15 - 11:19 AM

'The story above about the woman trying to set fire to a ballot box whilst waving a crucifix was rather funny. Letting her go without charge was an excellent gesture in the spirit of tolerance as there was no harm done. But a story in the press laughing at bigotry made it a result anyway.'

You seem to have missed two important aspects of that article though. Breda O Brien is part of the vocal opposition to the constitutional change and a membe of the Iona Institute. The Waterford Whispers, in addition, is a satirical site along the lines of, say, the Onion.


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Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 May 15 - 11:20 AM

Wonderful news! Once again, fairness, equality and good-heartedness wins the day.
Congratulations to Ireland - Top Banana! 👍


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Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 23 May 15 - 11:20 AM

[Rolls eyes]

You guys just don't get it. It's the fighting, not any particular issue, that is the problem. Stop fighting and just about any topic would be allowed to run it's course.

It's entirely up to you.


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Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: Bill D
Date: 23 May 15 - 11:29 AM

Great news for Ireland, and an object lesson for other countries. Perhaps the U.S. Supreme Court will see the handwriting on the wall as they consider whether to make it legal here.


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Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 23 May 15 - 11:31 AM

excellent!

thanks for posting the link to the story about the stolen & almost burnt ballot box, Peter Laban

I'd love to see Irish (& other) cartoonists reactions to this - can you post links to any you see?

thanks

sandra


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Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 May 15 - 11:45 AM

Well done the people of Ireland.


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Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 May 15 - 11:51 AM

Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: Stilly River Sage - PM
Date: 23 May 15 - 11:20 AM

[Rolls eyes]

You guys just don't get it. It's the fighting, not any particular issue, that is the problem. Stop fighting and just about any topic would be allowed to run it's course.

It's entirely up to you.


So why did you post this in this thread? Are you trying to show us how out of touch you are?


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Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 23 May 15 - 11:55 AM

I'm glad to hear of a humane and intelligent vote, but get real. "Changed utterly?"

Does Ireland suddenly have no unemployment?
Is there not one hungry person left?
Is there no longer any alcoholism or drug abuse?
Does each child have a stable and loving home?
Is there no prostitution?

If you could answer yes to all those, then that would be a nation changed utterly.


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Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 23 May 15 - 11:56 AM

SRS - ok, so just close a thread if/when the fighting gets too much.

Deleting it also indiscriminately punishes those many non combative contributors
who spend much time and thought on writing constructive positive posts.

'You' are ruthlessly obliterating all the good and stimulating posts that should remain as part of mudcat's
additional value as a contemporary social and cultural 'think tank' reference archive....

For just one example, "The Cake Thread"
agree or disagree with the position he took,
but some paragraphs of Joe's posts were quality nuggets of wisdom
that the deleting mod was just wrong to totally discard..

.. and maybe even one of mine wasn't completely facetious shite...😜

btw... Yeah.. well won result Ireland...


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Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 May 15 - 11:58 AM

Well chin up, though, eh, leeneia? It's not bad, is it?


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Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 May 15 - 12:07 PM

its a very good start.
And, in a country rooted in Roman Catholic dogma, it's a gigantic leap from the Dark Ages into the 21st century.

IMHO, YMMV.


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Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 May 15 - 12:10 PM

"it's a gigantic leap from the Dark Ages into the 21st century"
Let's not be too hasty!!!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 23 May 15 - 12:49 PM

The BBC news has just announced that not all the results are in, but that a substantial win for the Yes campaign is forecast,

I for one am over the moon. This is a big leap forward, not just for gay rights, but because it's almost the last nail in the coffin of repression which used to be the triumvirate of Church, State and Education in the bad old days of the Irish Free State.


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Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 May 15 - 01:10 PM

Pretty well official
Catholic Archbishop Martin has decalred that the Catholic Church needs to take a "reality check".
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: GUEST
Date: 23 May 15 - 01:39 PM

Yep, it's a great result, but the RC and CoI still control most of the primary and plenty of the secondary schools in Ireland. When their power is removed that really will be a time for celebration.


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Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 23 May 15 - 02:06 PM

Final call : 62.1 Yes, 37.9 N0.


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Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: akenaton
Date: 23 May 15 - 02:08 PM

SRS, With the greatest respect, if only threads without abuse and fighting are allowed to stand, that means that only threads with which the "liberals" here agree with will ever stand, as they are the abusers and the fighters.
This is a tactic....as I have explained many times, whenever their ideology is exposed they start being abusive and the thread is closed.

I thoroughly agree with Leeneia....this is not a vote for any kind of meaningful equality.....it is rather an indictment of media power.
If the vote went 2 or 3 to 1 in favour of "yes", there would still be millions of "evil bigots" living in Ireland, because that is what this vote really means....the legalisation of tyranny.

Homosexual "marriage" is not a door to any type of meaningful equality.....only economics and a change in the political system can provide that, and the media are hardly likely to encourage THAT sort of dissent.

As an atheist, I believe the Catholic Church were completely correct on this issue, marriage is about many things but chiefly the construction of the natural family.
This looks like the beginning of the end for Christianity, we are headed towards a completely secular society where anything goes and "self" rules.


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Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 23 May 15 - 02:17 PM

It is possible to disagree without becoming abusive, sling mud and cast aspersions on those who you don't agree with. There are probably a few examples of this decorum early in the mudcat history, but few if any recent examples.


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Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: Ed T
Date: 23 May 15 - 02:24 PM

"As an atheist, I believe the Catholic Church were completely correct on this issue"

Not sure if it meaningful, or logical, in adding that your Athiest leaning? But, you seem to repeat it in many posts. To me, it adds as much to the case you are attempting to make as saying you are also a bowler. (Disclaimer, in case my post leads to the thread being closed- No offense intended to any bowler)


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Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: Jack Campin
Date: 23 May 15 - 02:24 PM

I had never heard of the "Iona Institute" before (it's a company set up in Ireland in 2006, with no links to Iona). I have heard of the Iona Community (founded 1938), though (and met quite a few of them, both on Iona and in Glasgow). Here is their statement on human sexuality:

http://iona.org.uk/2011/04/06/iona-community-statement-on-human-sexuality/#

The Community is likely to be around long after this "institute" is gone and forgotten.


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Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 23 May 15 - 02:25 PM

I can understand why threads are closed. I fail to see why they are deleted.
I disagree with you Ake, I believe that this vote will go a long way to creating equality. However, I partially agree that those who voted against will be called bigots and homophobes when that is not always the case.


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Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: Ed T
Date: 23 May 15 - 02:31 PM

""However, I partially agree that those who voted against will be called bigots and homophobes when that is not always the case.""

Being from a country where gay marriage has been legal for some time, it has not been a big deal. So, I don't see that fear as being reasonable. However, it does send the message (aka, a wake up call) of how the majority sees it- versus a minority, which has enjoyed a significant influence on institutions, acting as if they represent the majority of citizens.


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Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: Fergie
Date: 23 May 15 - 02:31 PM

Easter 1916 (William Butler Yeats)
I

I have met them at close of day
Coming with vivid faces
From counter or desk among grey
Eighteenth-century houses.
I have passed with a nod of the head
Or polite meaningless words,
Or have lingered awhile and said
Polite meaningless words,
And thought before I had done
Of a mocking tale or a gibe
To please a companion
Around the fire at the club,
Being certain that they and I
But lived where motley is worn:
All changed, changed utterly:
A terrible beauty is born.

II

That woman's days were spent
In ignorant good will,
Her nights in argument
Until her voice grew shrill.
What voice more sweet than hers
When young and beautiful,
She rode to harriers?
This man had kept a school
And rode our winged horse.
This other his helper and friend
Was coming into his force;
He might have won fame in the end,
So sensitive his nature seemed,
So daring and sweet his thought.
This other man I had dreamed
A drunken, vain-glorious lout.
He had done most bitter wrong
To some who are near my heart,
Yet I number him in the song;
He, too, has resigned his part
In the casual comedy;
He, too, has been changed in his turn,
Transformed utterly:
A terrible beauty is born.

III

Hearts with one purpose alone
Through summer and winter, seem
Enchanted to a stone
To trouble the living stream.
The horse that comes from the road,
The rider, the birds that range
From cloud to tumbling cloud,
Minute by minute change.
A shadow of cloud on the stream
Changes minute by minute;
A horse-hoof slides on the brim;
And a horse plashes within it
Where long-legged moor-hens dive
And hens to moor-cocks call.
Minute by minute they live:
The stone's in the midst of all.

IV

Too long a sacrifice
Can make a stone of the heart.
O when may it suffice?
That is heaven's part, our part
To murmur name upon name,
As a mother names her child
When sleep at last has come
On limbs that had run wild.
What is it but nightfall?
No, no, not night but death.
Was it needless death after all?
For England may keep faith
For all that is done and said.
We know their dream; enough
To know they dreamed and are dead.
And what if excess of love
Bewildered them till they died?
I write it out in a verse --
MacDonagh and MacBride
And Connolly and Pearse
Now and in time to be,
Wherever green is worn,
Are changed, changed utterly:
A terrible beauty is born.


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Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 23 May 15 - 02:50 PM

I suggest threads are now more swiftly deleted rather than merely closed,
because a faction with a particular mindset
has 'gained' control of mudcat modding...

"There's a new Sheriff in town who don't ask questions and is quick on the draw..."



I've seen similar power shifts in the direction towards petty despotism
happen too often before
in local community arts & education volunteer groups & committees...

I'd be very happy to be proven wrong on this point.


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Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: akenaton
Date: 23 May 15 - 02:51 PM

My point Ed, is that my views are not influenced by any religious leanings, but from a social standpoint the Church have taken the correct stance.    Whether or not the majority of the population agree is of no importance.

When the vast majority of the population agreed with the criminalisation of homosexuality.....I opposed it.


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Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 May 15 - 02:52 PM

Welcome Ireland to 21st century.
I think the one third who voted against will soon have their fears allayed and will wonder what all the fuss about.
The North will have to follow I am sure.

SRS, PLEASE just delete the belligerent posts and leave the thread.
Why punish everyone?


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Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: akenaton
Date: 23 May 15 - 02:57 PM

it is ironic, that it is said that the priest abuse scandal has led to a reaction against the church on this issue.....yet the vast majority of abuse was against male youths by mature men.


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Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: Fergie
Date: 23 May 15 - 03:06 PM

The entirety of clerical child abuse was against CHILDREN.


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Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 May 15 - 03:19 PM

".it is rather an indictment of media power."
Can't speak about how the debate was reported elsewhere, but the media were fairly balanced (the serious media, that is), giving both sides an equal say - or local press, in fact, gave more prominence to the "nos".
The church were fully represented in the vote, though in my opinion, no power group, especially one with the Catholic Churches record on sexual matters, should not have had a voice - individual churchmen maybe - not a body which has abused its position by abusing and betraying children in their care - in the light of the clerical abuse scandal, their stance was ludicrous - they certainly were nor particularly interested in "protecting the family".
"Whether or not the majority of the population agree is of no importance."
It is probably the most significant aspect of this vote - 10 years or so ago, I doubt if this proposal would have stood a snowballs of being passed - not with the church' opposition - all gone!! - as the Archbishop of Dublin said " the Catholic Church needs to take a reality check".
"This looks like the beginning of the end for Christianity"
If only!
Far from being a uniting influence, the church has proven again and again that the way it has used religion is one of the most devisive and dangerous influence - Northern Ireland, Israel, Syria..... anywhere were religion and politics are indivisible.
There is no doubt that people will continue to believe... no problem - in fact, if the believers and the churches practiced the practical teachings of their various religions, the world would be a better place - the fact that it doesn't happen is borne out by the double standards displayed by the church on matters such as this - say one thing, do the other.      
Great day for the Irish, or what??
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 May 15 - 03:27 PM

"The church were fully represented in the vote"
Should be - in the press and on the radio and television
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 May 15 - 03:42 PM

".yet the vast majority of abuse was against male youths by mature men."
"The Catholic sex abuse cases are a series of allegations, investigations, trials, and convictions of child sexual abuse crimes committed by Catholic priests, nuns, and members of Roman Catholic orders against boys and girls as young as 3 years old, with the majority between the ages of 11 and 14"
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: Ed T
Date: 23 May 15 - 03:51 PM

As Joe O often says, today, not all RC religious folks blindly follow the dictates of the RC church, but adhere to what makes sense to them personally.

While the impact of the church on public institutions has been significantly (and, IMO rightly) reduced - I suspect regular church attendance has declined, that certainly does not mean that there are not many folks who consider themselves RC and "personally" religious in their own way.


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Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: Joe Offer
Date: 23 May 15 - 04:31 PM

Whether gay sex and marriage is moral or immoral, I do not believe that church or civil authorities should have the right to interfere with it. And even if the majority of voters opposes gay marriage, I do not believe that the majority should have the right to interfere with the rights of individuals to marry whom they choose. I was worried about the election in Ireland, because I was afraid that gay marriage might easily become a victim of the tyranny of the majority - and I'm very relieved by the results of this election.

As a Catholic, I hope that my church can respond to these election results graciously. I do think that church leaders have a right to question the morality of gay marriage - despite that fact that I disagree with them. I believe that it is a very healthy thing if we are free to question - even if we disagree with the majority opinion, or the opinion of those in authority.

This change took place in Ireland because the Irish people have finally come to realize that they are and should be free to question. Now, I hope that the future majority will not impose a new oppression upon those who question their decision.

My last trip to Ireland was a tour sponsored by the Sisters of Mercy, of which I am an associate member. I visited convents and talked with nuns all over Ireland. Most are very much like the nuns I know in the U.S. - very open about questioning the male leadership of the Catholic Church. Yes, I did meet some Catholic lay people in Ireland who were so conservative it was frightening, but the priests and nuns I met were far more open to questioning authority that many of you might think.

So, I'm glad that gay marriage was victorious in the Irish election, and I'm hoping the U.S. Supreme Court will soon make gay marriage lawful throughout the United States.

It's about time.

-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: All changed, changed utterly.
From: Fergie
Date: 23 May 15 - 04:37 PM

Good man Joe, it was great to meet you when you were in Dublin, hope to see you here in Ireland again one day. You know that you will always get a warm welcome from the singers and musicians of Ireland.
Stay safe me auld pal.
Fergus Russell


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