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BS: Can't have your gay cake and eat it

Steve Shaw 19 May 15 - 06:05 PM
Ebbie 19 May 15 - 06:08 PM
gnu 19 May 15 - 06:22 PM
Steve Shaw 19 May 15 - 06:58 PM
Joe Offer 19 May 15 - 07:08 PM
GUEST,Bizibod 19 May 15 - 07:22 PM
Steve Shaw 19 May 15 - 07:31 PM
Ed T 19 May 15 - 07:52 PM
GUEST,punkfolkrocker 19 May 15 - 07:55 PM
Steve Shaw 19 May 15 - 08:11 PM
gnu 19 May 15 - 10:16 PM
GUEST 19 May 15 - 10:33 PM
Backwoodsman 19 May 15 - 11:50 PM
Backwoodsman 20 May 15 - 12:08 AM
Joe Offer 20 May 15 - 12:38 AM
Ebbie 20 May 15 - 01:14 AM
Backwoodsman 20 May 15 - 01:44 AM
Dave the Gnome 20 May 15 - 02:47 AM
Jim Carroll 20 May 15 - 03:00 AM
Thompson 20 May 15 - 03:12 AM
Joe Offer 20 May 15 - 03:39 AM
Jim Carroll 20 May 15 - 03:58 AM
Thompson 20 May 15 - 04:14 AM
GUEST,Derrick 20 May 15 - 04:27 AM
GUEST,Howard Jones 20 May 15 - 04:33 AM
banjoman 20 May 15 - 04:38 AM
Dave the Gnome 20 May 15 - 04:50 AM
Keith A of Hertford 20 May 15 - 04:51 AM
Keith A of Hertford 20 May 15 - 05:20 AM
Dave the Gnome 20 May 15 - 05:31 AM
Joe Offer 20 May 15 - 05:42 AM
Steve Shaw 20 May 15 - 05:59 AM
Steve Shaw 20 May 15 - 06:02 AM
Steve Shaw 20 May 15 - 06:10 AM
Jim Carroll 20 May 15 - 06:29 AM
Nigel Parsons 20 May 15 - 06:38 AM
Steve Shaw 20 May 15 - 07:39 AM
Jim Carroll 20 May 15 - 07:41 AM
Backwoodsman 20 May 15 - 07:41 AM
Dave the Gnome 20 May 15 - 07:42 AM
Backwoodsman 20 May 15 - 07:43 AM
Jim Carroll 20 May 15 - 07:53 AM
Keith A of Hertford 20 May 15 - 08:00 AM
Musket 20 May 15 - 08:08 AM
Jim Carroll 20 May 15 - 08:10 AM
Steve Shaw 20 May 15 - 08:11 AM
GUEST,punkfolkrocker 20 May 15 - 08:15 AM
Ed T 20 May 15 - 08:19 AM
Keith A of Hertford 20 May 15 - 08:20 AM
Keith A of Hertford 20 May 15 - 08:32 AM
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Subject: BS: Can't have your gay cake and eat it
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 May 15 - 06:05 PM

From the Beeb: "A judge has ruled that a Christian-run bakery discriminated against a gay customer by refusing to make a cake with a pro-gay marriage slogan.
Ashers Baking Company, based in County Antrim, was taken to court by gay rights activist Gareth Lee.
A Belfast judge said, as a business, Ashers was not exempt from discrimination law."

Excellent. The bakery was operating as a very secular business for profit, not a religion. The ruling recognises that you can't bring your skewed religious beliefs into the public realm in order to discriminate against people. Opposing gay marriage is what you can do by putting your case, not by undermining the law of the land. A blow for common decency.


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Subject: RE: BS: Can't have your gay cake and eat it
From: Ebbie
Date: 19 May 15 - 06:08 PM

Agreed!


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Subject: RE: BS: Can't have your gay cake and eat it
From: gnu
Date: 19 May 15 - 06:22 PM

Education too often requires the rule of law.


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Subject: RE: BS: Can't have your gay cake and eat it
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 May 15 - 06:58 PM

Education requires curiosity, the acquisition of the skills required to grab knowledge and the grabbing of the knowledge. Having the law dangled over you (or, for that matter, a crucifix) gives you instruction, not education. The cake shop people have learned nothing. They are going to appeal.


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Subject: RE: BS: Can't have your gay cake and eat it
From: Joe Offer
Date: 19 May 15 - 07:08 PM

I think I'd side with the cake shop on this one. Would the same principle require me to make a cake praising neo-Nazis if a customer ordered it? Another thread active now, discusses the idea of the wrath of God, an idea that is very distasteful to me. If a customer wanted it, would I be required to decorate a cake extolling the wrath of God? Or would an atheist be required to decorate a cake with religious images if the customer wanted it? Or must a wedding singer sing a song he hates at a wedding? I think the business owner should be able to politely say, "No, I don't want to do that."

I thought that was supposed to be one of the benefits of owning my own business - if I don't want to do a job, I don't think that that I, if I were a self-employed person, should have to do it I don't want to. And the customer has the right not to do business with me.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Can't have your gay cake and eat it
From: GUEST,Bizibod
Date: 19 May 15 - 07:22 PM

Joe, my thoughts exactly.
Since when did a cake turn into a banner ? Put flowers on it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Can't have your gay cake and eat it
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 May 15 - 07:31 PM

Well, unless the neo-Nazi cake was saying " Happy birthday Nick Griffin", it would be promoting hate speech, which is against the law. I would imagine that atheist cake shops the world over produce cakes to order with religious symbolism without demur. Or just differently-religious cake shops. Have you got examples of this having been an issue? What kind of hateful wedding songs have you in mind and are you talking about a hired performer here? The thing about the cake shop in question is that it was discriminating against a particular section of the community that has suffered discrimination for way too long, a fact that the law recognises. That is the focus of this issue. Suppose I was renting out a flat and I refused to let it to a black family because I don't like black people or think they would degrade the neighbourhood. Well, the flat is my business enterprise and I should be able to do what I like with it. Right?


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Subject: RE: BS: Can't have your gay cake and eat it
From: Ed T
Date: 19 May 15 - 07:52 PM

I suspect a business person can generally refuse to provide a service, or provide goods to customers for a business good reason. However, to do so soley based on reasons such the race, sex or sexual orientation of a customer was not a reasonable one-as it would be merely based on discrimination. The situation may be somewhat different if the business did not service the general public (a solely religious business).

While the case involved religion, I dont see the ruling as one solely based on a religious belief. It would be the same if an Athiest refused a similar service to a religious hetro fellow.


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Subject: RE: BS: Can't have your gay cake and eat it
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 19 May 15 - 07:55 PM

Whilst watching the first qualifying round of the Eurovision Song Contest,
mrs punkfolkrocker entered into the spirit
and made a list of popular cakes classified by stereotypes of their most likely sexuality.

For example, Eccles cake and Rock cake were top contenders for least gay/probably most hetero.

But as she is a highly trained & responsible team leader in a caring public sector profession,
where inclusivity and equality of gender & sexuality is of paramount concern;
She qualified the list on the basis that appearances can be deceptive.

The Eccles could with equal probability also be the cake equivalent of the gay culture 'Bear'.

Further research will resume early tomorrow morning
at the cake counter of Tesco near the bus stop
on her way to work.😜


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Subject: RE: BS: Can't have your gay cake and eat it
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 May 15 - 08:11 PM

Been a bit naughty on the cake front today. Had an Eccles cake earlier on then a massive slab of Bakewell tart later on, bought in the Fine Cheese Company shop in Bath. Had to buy something to sustain meself on the three-hour drive home...


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Subject: RE: BS: Can't have your gay cake and eat it
From: gnu
Date: 19 May 15 - 10:16 PM

Joe... good point. Ed T.. good point.

On retrospect, I gotta go with Joe... my business is my business. Go somewhere else and don't tell me how I must run my business if I am not bothering you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Can't have your gay cake and eat it
From: GUEST
Date: 19 May 15 - 10:33 PM

Lincoln at Gettysburg said the civil war was a test of whether a nation conceived in liberty and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal can long endure.

Now we're engaged in another great civil war testing whether any nation can endure without a state religion. The answer appears to be "no." Apparently we need a common belief system in order to function as a society, and without an established church the government has to dictate that belief system in some other way.


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Subject: RE: BS: Can't have your gay cake and eat it
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 May 15 - 11:50 PM

Aren't there any other cake-shops in NI? I would have just told Asher's to shove their cake up their mean-spirited, pious arses, and gone somewhere else.

Or, better still, I'd have made my own bloody cake - mine are better than any shop-bought cakes anyway. And nobody can stop me putting any fecking slogan I like on it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Can't have your gay cake and eat it
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 May 15 - 12:08 AM

In fact I might make a nice rich fruit cake this weekend, ice it, and decorate it with the slogan, "Shove your cake up your arses, Asher's".


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Subject: RE: BS: Can't have your gay cake and eat it
From: Joe Offer
Date: 20 May 15 - 12:38 AM

I'd agree, backwoodsman. I wouldn't patronize a company that I knew discriminated against gay cake buyers, but I wouldn't take them to court over it.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Can't have your gay cake and eat it
From: Ebbie
Date: 20 May 15 - 01:14 AM

Hmmmm. If I owned a cake shop and someone wanted to order a distasteful, to me, decoration I might tell them of a cake shop down the street that would be better at it than I.

However, if I was the only cake shop in town? Suppose the desired decoration was of testicles and a penis? Would I comply?

Or if someone wanted a menorah and I was a christian, would I object to the decoration? A swastika? Of a 'colored jockey by the door post'?

I don't know for sure. I suspect though that given the ability to dicker and compromise we would come up with an agreeable alternative. Good humo(u)r can go a long way. On the face of it I don't believe I would turn away the business even if I felt compelled to tuck a note into the paperwork stating my misgivings and suggesting an alternative for future orders.


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Subject: RE: BS: Can't have your gay cake and eat it
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 May 15 - 01:44 AM

I agree it's a thorny one, Ebbie, but my point is that, just as the trader can be choosy about what he/she puts on a cake, the customer can be equally choosy about where he/she spends his money.

I agree with Joe, as the customer, I'd vote with my feet rather than turn it into a litigation issue. But that's easy for me to say, I'm not the one who felt discriminated against, and the UK does have reasonably robust anti-discrimination laws.


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Subject: RE: BS: Can't have your gay cake and eat it
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 May 15 - 02:47 AM

So, Joe, can you honestly say that any business should be able to discriminate against any section of society if they so chose? Should a landlords be able to advertise a room for rent as 'No Blacks or Irish'? Should a publican be able to refuse service to Gypsies and Pikeys? Come on, answer honestly now, if you feel this shop should be able to discriminate against gay people, where would you draw the line and why?


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Subject: RE: BS: Can't have your gay cake and eat it
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 May 15 - 03:00 AM

"Would the same principle require me to make a cake praising neo-Nazis"
No comparison - one is dedicated to promoting hate - the other to equality.
What if the bakery decided to refuse to accept the order of a black person on principle, or, considering where it is, a Catholic - should they be allowed to do so on the basis of their conscience?
In a couple of days time we will be voting in a referendum to decide whether to put gays on an equal footing with re#he rest of us regarding marriage - and in line with the rest of the people of these islands (other than the British bit of Ireland, which still remains in the last century) - it is of no surprise that the church here is now pulling out the stops to prevent that happening - the last twitches of a dying dinosaur, hopefully.
It's a sobering thought that homosexuality wasn't decriminalised here until 1993 - 22 years ago - time for Ireland to move on.
As the Irish times puts it -
"The answer is simple. Equality is an absolute, not a parcelling out of progress by the powerful. To suggest that civil partnership is enough for gay people is to say: "Thus far and no further." It is to set limits and boundaries on one group in society – a minority – based on what may be comfortable for another group within society. That's not how equality works."
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Can't have your gay cake and eat it
From: Thompson
Date: 20 May 15 - 03:12 AM

A fine crop of straw men today, and only four posts before Godwin arrives!
I, personally, moi, myself, would have told the bakery where to go, and would have found a nicer bakery to make my cake. But the couple who commissioned the cake feel differently and have an absolute right to take legal action against discrimination.


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Subject: RE: BS: Can't have your gay cake and eat it
From: Joe Offer
Date: 20 May 15 - 03:39 AM

OK, note the facts of the case carefully: "Christian-run bakery discriminated against a gay customer by refusing to make a cake with a pro-gay marriage slogan." The bakery refused to make a cake carrying an image of Sesame Street characters Bert and Ernie below the phrase 'Support Gay Marriage.' The bakery refused to make the cake supporting an issue, not discriminating against the sexual orientation of a customer. It is my understanding that gay marriage is not yet legal in Northern Ireland, so it is still an active political issue.

Making a wedding cake for a gay couple celebrating their legal marriage, would be a different matter.

But if it's a slogan promoting an issue, am I bound to produce a representation of that slogan that I disagree with? If I'm a printer, am I bound to print placards for a political party I detest, or against a political candidate I support?

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Can't have your gay cake and eat it
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 May 15 - 03:58 AM

"and have an absolute right to take legal action against discrimination."
And, thankfully, have won their case.
I onder if people find comparisons between campaigning for gay rights and Neo-Nazism s offensive as I do?
I do hope it was just a poor choice of words.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Can't have your gay cake and eat it
From: Thompson
Date: 20 May 15 - 04:14 AM

To lighten the tone a bit…

In Ireland, we're voting the day after tomorrow (22.5.2015) on the right of gay people to marry. The Hailo taxi system have advertised that they'll give a lift to a polling station for free, up to a value of €15, to those who wish to vote. Here's their funny and thought-provoking take on the poll.


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Subject: RE: BS: Can't have your gay cake and eat it
From: GUEST,Derrick
Date: 20 May 15 - 04:27 AM

The mistake the baker made was stating why he refused the job.
If he didn't want to make the cake, for what ever reason, he should simply have said "no thank you" and suggested they try some one else.
Any one can turn down a job,the offence is in the way you do it


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Subject: RE: BS: Can't have your gay cake and eat it
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 20 May 15 - 04:33 AM

It's difficult. In principle, I agree a business should be able to choose who it does business with. It is also, on the whole, a good thing when a business chooses to act ethically. The difficulty arises when their ethical values differ from yours, and where disagreement becomes discrimination.

However this case isn't about ethics, which are personal, it's about the law. It's against the law to discriminate against certain groups, even for ethical reasons. Businesses have to abide by a lot of laws, many of which aren't particularly helpful to them, and this is just one of them.

Business should operate within a moral and ethical framework. However it is possible to do wrong by doing right. These bakers presumably felt they were acting ethically by refusing to do something which contravened their moral code. I guess the lesson for business owners is that they have to think more widely than their own personal moral values and consider those of the wider society, especially where those are incorporated into legislation. If you are in business you may sometimes have to do things you are personally uncomfortable with - if you don't like that then perhaps you're in the wrong business.


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Subject: RE: BS: Can't have your gay cake and eat it
From: banjoman
Date: 20 May 15 - 04:38 AM

The bakery should have a sign displayed stating " The management reserves the right to refuse to accept cake orders without explanation"
I tend to agree with the points put by Joe Offer


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Subject: RE: BS: Can't have your gay cake and eat it
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 May 15 - 04:50 AM

The bakery refused to make the cake supporting an issue, not discriminating against the sexual orientation of a customer.

That is a very fine line there, Joe, but I do take your point. However, it is only on the shop's say so that it was the slogan they objected to and the judge believed that the discrimination was on the grounds of sexual orientation. Neither you nor I were there so we can only go off what has been reported by the press. Unless something comes up to counter it, I, for one, will believe the judges ruling.


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Subject: RE: BS: Can't have your gay cake and eat it
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 May 15 - 04:51 AM

Joe is right.
It was about an issue, not equality.
To believe marriage should continue to be for a man and a woman, as it has always been, is a legitimate view held by many including gay folk.

The shop makes no attempt to discriminate against gay people.
It merely refused to produce promotional material for a cause they happen to oppose.

Opposing gay marriage is what you can do by putting your case, not by undermining the law of the land.

They did not think that they were undermining the law of the land.
I am surprised that the court decided that they were and the appeal may well be upheld.

Personally I approve of gay marriage and I think it will soon be universally accepted, but I do not expect everyone to come around to it on the same day that I did.
That is just intolerant of the views and beliefs of others.


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Subject: RE: BS: Can't have your gay cake and eat it
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 May 15 - 05:20 AM

Guardian 40 minutes ago,

"Gareth Lee, who brought the claim with assistance from the Equality Commission for Northern Ireland, claimed he had suffered two forms of discrimination: on grounds of his sexual orientation and on grounds of his political opinion."
" Their first response to Lee's claim was they were not discriminating against Lee as a gay man; indeed, they had no knowledge of his sexual orientation. They would willingly have made him a cake without a "support gay marriage" graphic and they would equally have refused to make such a cake for a heterosexual customer."


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Subject: RE: BS: Can't have your gay cake and eat it
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 May 15 - 05:31 AM

Joe is right.
It was about an issue, not equality.
...
Their first response to Lee's claim was they were not discriminating against Lee as a gay man; indeed, they had no knowledge of his sexual orientation.


The judge did not believe that. Also from the Guardian -


The judge added: "I believe the defendants did have the knowledge that the plaintiff was gay."

Outlining her reasons why this was a case of discrimination, Brownlie said: "The defendants are not a religious organisation. They conduct a business for profit. As much as I acknowledge their religious beliefs, this is a business to provide service to all. The law says they must do that."


In the absence of any evidence that the judge was wrong I will believe her. She is an expert in the field. We are not.


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Subject: RE: BS: Can't have your gay cake and eat it
From: Joe Offer
Date: 20 May 15 - 05:42 AM

Jim, when I consider issues, I try to think about how I would react if I were forced to do something I considered offensive - like doing something in support of neo-Nazism. I would suppose the baker reacted similarly to being forced to support gay marriage.

And although I don't agree with him, I can then understand how he feels.

I guess I'm just not as convinced of my own self-righteousness as some people are. If you were offended by my "comparisons between campaigning for gay rights and Neo-Nazism," be assured that my contrasting of the two issues was intentional. But I do support gay rights, and I do not support neo-Nazism - that's the point.

I think it's a wonderful thing to celebrate gay rights, but not to force reluctant people to do the same. It looks like the battle for gay marriage is being won, and being won quickly. But if we shove that victory down our opponents' throats, they may vomit it back up at us.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Can't have your gay cake and eat it
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 May 15 - 05:59 AM

What tosh. What heterosexual customer would have requested such a cake? That is just an easy thing to say, isn't it, like saying, well, they could always find another cake shop. I hate you blacks/Muslims/Jews and I won't let you rent my flat, but I'm sure you'll find somewhere else that will have you. No, I won't marry this gay couple, as that would offend my ethics, but I'm sure they'll find someone else round the corner who will. You don't get let off that easily. As for the "ethics" of the cake business, I wonder who they bank with and whether they checked that that institution makes all its investment decisions on such moral high ground. Sorry, Joe et al., but there are some very slippery morals in play here. There are many aspects of life in which we accept limits on our rights to be picky, as we live in communities that are diverse in their human makeup. I think we call it tolerance. I don't get to withhold tax because I don't like Trident or because I detest free schools. You do business with all manner of people and your red line should be to say I'll deal with what's legal, decent and what stops short of infringing others' freedoms. Otherwise, put on a cheerful face, get on with the job then go home and reflect on your bigotry.


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Subject: RE: BS: Can't have your gay cake and eat it
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 May 15 - 06:02 AM

That was a response to Keith.


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Subject: RE: BS: Can't have your gay cake and eat it
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 May 15 - 06:10 AM

Jim, when I consider issues, I try to think about how I would react if I were forced to do something I considered offensive - like doing something in support of neo-Nazism. I would suppose the baker reacted similarly to being forced to support gay marriage.

And although I don't agree with him, I can then understand how he feels.


Then try to understand how the person discriminated against might be feeling. In my view, the need to put right the sorry history of centuries of discrimination against gay people trumps the delicate feelings of a cake-making Christian bigot a thousand times over.

And your continuing equivalence of neo-Nazism and support for gay marriage is giving me bellyache, frankly.


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Subject: RE: BS: Can't have your gay cake and eat it
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 May 15 - 06:29 AM

"Jim, when I consider issues, I try to think about how I would react if I were forced to do something I considered offensive "
Sorry Joe - you can apply this to anything, say, lke serving a black man or a Catholic to some strange people - a line has to be drawn and that line must protect a significant minority (at least, we believe it is a minority - prejudice makes it virtually impossible to know how many gays there actually are)
Why should people who find black people offensive not be allowed to discriminate against them/ - that seems to be the logic of your argument.
Our laws have moved, albeit reluctantly, to attempting to curb prejudice toward races, communities and those that are deemed to be 'different' and therefore offensive.
Even in soemwhat redneck Northern Ireland, the behaviour of this businessman serving the general public has been deemed unacceptable - well done them
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Can't have your gay cake and eat it
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 20 May 15 - 06:38 AM

What seems to be missing from this discussion so far is the fact that the 'customer' was a gay rights activist.
To what extent might his request have been a matter of 'pushing the boundaries'? Was he actively seeking a test case?

Just asking.


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Subject: RE: BS: Can't have your gay cake and eat it
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 May 15 - 07:39 AM

Dead right, Nigel. These activists, who are fighting a centuries-old tide of bigotry and discrimination, are such nuisances, aren't they? Let's look at it another way round. Without "test cases" the bigotry holds sway for another ten, twenty, thirty years? Let sleeping dogs lie, eh? Just shrug and find another cake shop, eh? But, whatever you do, don't make a noise?

I don't know whether the chap was an activist looking for a test case or not. But, if he was, then I say all power to his elbow for hurrying along the cause of getting rid of discrimination against gay people. We make progress because of people like him. We stay where we are by doing that peculiarly British thing of "not making a fuss".


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Subject: RE: BS: Can't have your gay cake and eat it
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 May 15 - 07:41 AM

"Was he actively seeking a test case?"
The cake was ordered for a private function to mark 'International Anti Homophobia Day'.
Not that it matters - the bakers would have failed the test anyway.
It's worth remembering that it's well within living memory that, not only were some businesses in Northern Ireland refusing service to Catholics because they 'kicked with the wrong foot', but politicians were actually calling for a boycott of all Catholic businesses.
Attempts to hold a function on say, a United Ireland might well lead to your home being petrol bombed (some of my family experienced this for being Catholics living in the wrong part of town)   
There were pubs in my home town of Liverpool who would refuse service to anybody thought to be Catholic or at least, you woould be quite likely to find something nasty ploating in your pint.
But, as the song says:
"These are more enlightened days, Cru#l men and savage ways we left long ago" - sort of!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Can't have your gay cake and eat it
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 May 15 - 07:41 AM

Does it matter, Nigel? Whatever his motivation, Mr. Lee made a reasonable request for goods which Asher's were perfectly capable of providing, and they discriminated against him on account of his support for a cause which they oppose - and very likely also on account of his homosexuality, although that's not the main thrust of his complaint.


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Subject: RE: BS: Can't have your gay cake and eat it
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 May 15 - 07:42 AM

Complete red herring, Nigel. Why single out the customer as being potentially at fault? The shop could have been equally looking for a test case. They did accept the order at first and then changed their minds. Who says he was a gay rights activist anyway? The press? Just because he asked for a gay rights message on his wedding cake? Just go by the facts which, as far as I can see, the judge has.


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Subject: RE: BS: Can't have your gay cake and eat it
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 May 15 - 07:43 AM

Cross-posted with Steve and Jim - sorry.


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Subject: RE: BS: Can't have your gay cake and eat it
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 May 15 - 07:53 AM

"Cross-posted with Steve and Jim - sorry"
Don't apologies - the more, the merrier
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Can't have your gay cake and eat it
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 May 15 - 08:00 AM

Steve,
What heterosexual customer would have requested such a cake?

Lots!
There are many straight people who campaign for gay marriage.

Dave, The judge seemed to say that it was only an offence if motivated by the will to discriminate against gay people.
He was claiming to know what was in their heads.
They denied that was in their heads.

Jim,
Why should people who find black people offensive not be allowed to discriminate against them/ - that seems to be the logic of your argument.

That was not the logic of anyone's argument.
Discrimination is wrong.
Disagreeing that marriage be changed to include another group is not.

How about a cake saying "Support child marriage" or "Support incestuous marriage" ?


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Subject: RE: BS: Can't have your gay cake and eat it
From: Musket
Date: 20 May 15 - 08:08 AM

Nice of Joe Offer to liken gay people to Nazis.

Joe says he sides with the bakery for that reason. Presumably he'd side with them if they didn't want to do a cake for a black couple or mixed race? How's about a disabled couple, they offend God botherers too eh?

You really have a side to you that doesn't bear thinking about eh Joe?

The freedom to discriminate against others is not a freedom. It is contrary to the very discrimination legislation that religious nonsense clings to when it suits them .

Love thy neighbour? Hypocritical swine to a man.


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Subject: RE: BS: Can't have your gay cake and eat it
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 May 15 - 08:10 AM

"How about a cake saying "Support child marriage" or "Support incestuous marriage" ?"
Both are illegal and are an affront to common decency, as is comparing them to demanding a right that is aimed to introduce equality - every bit as offensive as the 'Neo-Nazi suggestion, as far as I'm concerned.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Can't have your gay cake and eat it
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 May 15 - 08:11 AM

Keith, you have a way of degrading discussions. You know damn well that child marriage, etc., is illegal and that any prospect of it would be highly damaging to children. Gay marriage is on the agenda for becoming legal in more and more places and it damages nobody and it does away with one nasty piece of discrimination. If you have documentary evidence that lots of heterosexual people order cakes with messages campaigning for gay marriage, let's have it. Though by persisting with that line you are avoiding the point of the argument. I don't wish to waste any more time on it, frankly.


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Subject: RE: BS: Can't have your gay cake and eat it
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 20 May 15 - 08:15 AM

40 years ago when I started first year of OND Business studies and Economics A level..

A simple crucial mantra of capitalism that was drilled into us from day one was..

"The customer is King / sovereign; the customer is always right"

Of course, that was at the same time as shops and cafes in Glastonbury
openly displayed signs on their doors

"No Hippies"...

Then there were the early 1980s reports in a certain south west local newspaper

As near word for word as best as I can remember...

"Sand dunes invaded by homosexuals of the worst kind"


How much progress and enlightenment since then...???


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Subject: RE: BS: Can't have your gay cake and eat it
From: Ed T
Date: 20 May 15 - 08:19 AM

Private or corporate business, religious owner/manager or not, discrimination is clearly discrimination. Where sexual discrimination is illegal, the law is the law-regardless of personal opinion (or, reason for it). A similar USA case in Colorado the legal ruling was the same.


Similar USA ruling 


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Subject: RE: BS: Can't have your gay cake and eat it
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 May 15 - 08:20 AM

Well done Musket.
That should get the thread closed.

Jim, gay marriage was considered an affront to public decency until recently.
Well within our lifetimes.
Public decency is a constantly changing set of values.

Different countries have different age limits for marriage, and until modern times there were no limits in any country.
"Support younger marriage" ?
Many cultures practice child marriage still.
It is not an affront to everyone's decency.

Why is it an affront to public decency if siblings seek to marry?


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Subject: RE: BS: Can't have your gay cake and eat it
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 May 15 - 08:32 AM

Steve,
You know damn well that child marriage, etc., is illegal and that any prospect of it would be highly damaging to children.

Illegality is not an issue.
Gay marriage is illegal where this happened.

Child marriage is legal in Scotland (16) .
In Spain the age of consent is just 13.


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Mudcat time: 15 January 1:36 PM EST

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