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BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!

akenaton 10 May 15 - 02:56 PM
GUEST,weerover 10 May 15 - 03:27 PM
Steve Shaw 10 May 15 - 03:40 PM
Spleen Cringe 10 May 15 - 04:12 PM
GUEST 10 May 15 - 04:24 PM
Jack Campin 10 May 15 - 04:28 PM
akenaton 10 May 15 - 04:33 PM
Steve Shaw 10 May 15 - 04:41 PM
Big Al Whittle 10 May 15 - 05:53 PM
Spleen Cringe 10 May 15 - 06:10 PM
Musket 10 May 15 - 06:45 PM
GUEST,punkfolkrocker 10 May 15 - 06:58 PM
Steve Shaw 10 May 15 - 08:40 PM
GUEST,Allan Conn 11 May 15 - 02:04 AM
Richard Bridge 11 May 15 - 02:25 AM
Keith A of Hertford 11 May 15 - 04:31 AM
Nigel Parsons 11 May 15 - 05:32 AM
Musket 11 May 15 - 06:24 AM
Steve Shaw 11 May 15 - 06:55 AM
Spleen Cringe 11 May 15 - 06:59 AM
Steve Shaw 11 May 15 - 07:07 AM
Spleen Cringe 11 May 15 - 07:26 AM
GUEST,Jon 11 May 15 - 07:26 AM
Musket 11 May 15 - 07:29 AM
Keith A of Hertford 11 May 15 - 07:36 AM
Spleen Cringe 11 May 15 - 07:37 AM
Spleen Cringe 11 May 15 - 07:43 AM
Musket 11 May 15 - 07:59 AM
Richard Bridge 11 May 15 - 08:31 AM
GUEST,Sol 11 May 15 - 08:40 AM
Keith A of Hertford 11 May 15 - 09:04 AM
Penny S. 11 May 15 - 09:41 AM
GUEST,punkfolkrocker 11 May 15 - 09:58 AM
Steve Shaw 11 May 15 - 10:03 AM
Teribus 11 May 15 - 10:09 AM
Steve Shaw 11 May 15 - 10:13 AM
Keith A of Hertford 11 May 15 - 10:14 AM
GUEST,punkfolkrocker 11 May 15 - 10:22 AM
Musket 11 May 15 - 10:53 AM
Spleen Cringe 11 May 15 - 11:43 AM
GUEST,weerover 11 May 15 - 02:47 PM
Keith A of Hertford 11 May 15 - 03:14 PM
Musket 11 May 15 - 03:53 PM
Keith A of Hertford 12 May 15 - 08:10 AM
GUEST 12 May 15 - 08:55 AM
GUEST 12 May 15 - 09:48 AM
Musket 12 May 15 - 10:26 AM
Keith A of Hertford 12 May 15 - 10:36 AM
Musket 12 May 15 - 10:51 AM
Richard Bridge 12 May 15 - 05:52 PM
Spleen Cringe 12 May 15 - 06:34 PM
Steve Shaw 12 May 15 - 06:40 PM
GUEST,allan conn 12 May 15 - 07:30 PM
GUEST,Dave the Gnome 13 May 15 - 03:09 AM
GUEST,Dave the Gnome 13 May 15 - 03:14 AM
Keith A of Hertford 13 May 15 - 04:57 AM
GUEST 13 May 15 - 06:44 AM
GUEST,Allan Conn 13 May 15 - 07:26 AM
GUEST 13 May 15 - 07:10 PM
GUEST,allan conn 13 May 15 - 07:32 PM
Stanron 13 May 15 - 09:05 PM
GUEST,Allan Conn 14 May 15 - 02:36 AM
Stu 14 May 15 - 04:03 AM
Thompson 14 May 15 - 04:58 AM
Thompson 14 May 15 - 05:10 AM
Jim Carroll 14 May 15 - 06:38 AM
Thompson 14 May 15 - 06:52 AM
Jim Carroll 14 May 15 - 07:53 AM
GUEST 14 May 15 - 11:03 AM
GUEST,Dave the Gnome 14 May 15 - 11:03 AM
GUEST,Allan Conn 14 May 15 - 12:20 PM
GUEST,Allan Conn 14 May 15 - 12:31 PM
GUEST 14 May 15 - 12:35 PM
Jim Carroll 14 May 15 - 01:25 PM
Richard Bridge 14 May 15 - 02:22 PM
GUEST,punkfolkrocker 14 May 15 - 03:01 PM
GUEST,Dave the Gnome 14 May 15 - 05:36 PM
Keith A of Hertford 15 May 15 - 04:36 AM
GUEST,Dave the Gnome 15 May 15 - 05:00 AM
Jim Carroll 15 May 15 - 05:01 AM
GUEST,Dave the Gnome 15 May 15 - 05:02 AM
Stu 15 May 15 - 05:05 AM
Steve Shaw 15 May 15 - 05:17 AM
Big Al Whittle 15 May 15 - 05:18 AM
Musket 15 May 15 - 05:21 AM
GUEST,Dave the Gnome 15 May 15 - 05:38 AM
GUEST,Dave the Gnome 15 May 15 - 05:50 AM
Jim Carroll 15 May 15 - 06:21 AM
Keith A of Hertford 15 May 15 - 07:53 AM
GUEST,Dave the Gnome 15 May 15 - 07:58 AM
Steve Shaw 15 May 15 - 08:15 AM
Jim Carroll 15 May 15 - 08:18 AM
Keith A of Hertford 15 May 15 - 08:50 AM
Jim Carroll 15 May 15 - 09:11 AM
GUEST,Dave the Gnome 15 May 15 - 09:22 AM
GUEST,Dave the Gnome 15 May 15 - 09:44 AM
Keith A of Hertford 15 May 15 - 09:54 AM
GUEST,Allan Conn 15 May 15 - 09:59 AM
Thompson 15 May 15 - 10:59 AM
GUEST,punkfolkrocker 15 May 15 - 11:01 AM
Jim Carroll 15 May 15 - 11:25 AM
Musket 15 May 15 - 01:09 PM
GUEST 15 May 15 - 01:50 PM
GUEST,Dave the Gnome 15 May 15 - 01:52 PM
GUEST,Dave the Gnome 15 May 15 - 01:53 PM
Musket 15 May 15 - 02:24 PM
Jim Carroll 15 May 15 - 02:59 PM
GUEST,Dave the Gnome 15 May 15 - 03:38 PM
Big Al Whittle 15 May 15 - 05:19 PM
Musket 16 May 15 - 03:39 AM
Jim Carroll 16 May 15 - 04:35 AM
GUEST,Allan Conn 16 May 15 - 05:09 AM
GUEST,Dave the Gnome 16 May 15 - 05:15 AM
Keith A of Hertford 16 May 15 - 05:28 AM
Dave the Gnome 16 May 15 - 05:41 AM
Jim Carroll 16 May 15 - 06:11 AM
Bonzo3legs 16 May 15 - 08:29 AM
Steve Shaw 16 May 15 - 08:38 AM
Bonzo3legs 16 May 15 - 08:47 AM
Jim Carroll 16 May 15 - 09:04 AM
Bonzo3legs 16 May 15 - 09:19 AM
Keith A of Hertford 16 May 15 - 09:50 AM
Big Al Whittle 16 May 15 - 09:59 AM
Steve Shaw 16 May 15 - 10:36 AM
Dave the Gnome 16 May 15 - 11:28 AM
Jim Carroll 16 May 15 - 11:43 AM
Bonzo3legs 16 May 15 - 12:20 PM
Keith A of Hertford 16 May 15 - 12:46 PM
Bonzo3legs 16 May 15 - 12:55 PM
Big Al Whittle 16 May 15 - 01:11 PM
Musket 16 May 15 - 01:20 PM
Jim Carroll 16 May 15 - 01:24 PM
Bonzo3legs 16 May 15 - 01:46 PM
GUEST,Modette 16 May 15 - 01:53 PM
Keith A of Hertford 16 May 15 - 01:55 PM
Steve Shaw 16 May 15 - 01:56 PM
Keith A of Hertford 16 May 15 - 01:58 PM
Big Al Whittle 16 May 15 - 02:05 PM
Steve Shaw 16 May 15 - 02:09 PM
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Subject: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: akenaton
Date: 10 May 15 - 02:56 PM

Yes, remember the saga of the last socialist politician?
Michael Foot was sacrificed to the media, and that electable darling Mr A Blair, took the wounded Labour party to the right of the Tories.

Now, I haven't voted labour since that disgusting spectacle unfolded and socialism became a proscribed word in "liberal" circles, but for you staunch Labour Party followers, we have the unedifying sight of history repeating itself.

The zombies and hypocrites are emerging from under their stones to knife the decent but ineffectual Mr Milliband.
Be very afraid, Mr Mandelson, his protege Chuka Umunna, and all of the Blairites are back, even those who pledged loyalty to "Stressed Ed".

The Labour party is now officially dead, don't believe that there is any voice to protect the very poorest in society, any pretence of democracy will now be abandoned.
Already they are talking of the need to encourage and enrich the middle classes, to promote financial aspiration in a society rotten to the core.

The problem is, that as the Blair govt illustrated, "Red Tories" can achieve much more for the system than proper conservatives ever could, or would want to.
Remember Iraq?...Remember the failed PTI schemes? Remember deregulation of financial services?....even under a Conservative govt these horrors could never have happened......A "liberal" Labour Party is much more dangerous to our people and the world than any centre right Conservative administration could ever be.

I told you Labour was all empty rhetoric.....tell me I'm wrong?


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Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: GUEST,weerover
Date: 10 May 15 - 03:27 PM

Quite a quandary for the Labour leadership: they can't get elected in England without moving massively to the right, and that would annihilate them in Scotland. Roll on elections to Holyrood next year.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 May 15 - 03:40 PM

I don't know whether you're right or wrong. I can't see through all the nonsense you typed.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 10 May 15 - 04:12 PM

I would agree with your analysis, except I'm not convinced by 'more dangerous'. 'As dangerous,' maybe.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 10 May 15 - 04:24 PM

I dreaded to put the news on in case the Tories had got in, or worse still Labour


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Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: Jack Campin
Date: 10 May 15 - 04:28 PM

they can't get elected in England without moving massively to the right, and that would annihilate them in Scotland

How could they get any more annihilated in Scotland than they just have been?

The electorally logical thing for them to do is to go for the UKIP vote by turning themselves into a Strasserite fascist party. Which is pretty close to what Blairism is anyway.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: akenaton
Date: 10 May 15 - 04:33 PM

Spleen...They are "more dangerous" because they will have no viable opposition if they achieve power.

Labour, in a Capitalist system should be a Party of opposition, if the Tories had been in power during the run up to Iraq, Labour would have opposed the war and used the strength of public opinion to gain political advantage.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 May 15 - 04:41 PM

I would remind the poster that the deregulation of financial services, which he says could never have happened under the Conservatives, was actually started by the Thatcher regime. Last I heard, she was a bit of a Conservative. As for the Labour Party being officially dead, it seems to me that every time a party loses an election in this country, it's "officially dead". Yet, within one or two more elections, it becomes "officially undead" and the other one becomes "officially dead". I'd say it is a rock-solid cert that the 2020 election will be between Labour and the Tories. They will both be a dead loss, but they will both be relatively undead.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 May 15 - 05:53 PM

ain't necessarilly so...

Kinnock didn't oppose Thatch over the Falklands...very gung ho, as i remember.

i have no idea, who will succeed Milliband. Wilson was always castigated for 'galloping pragmatism'. although much of what he did seems hopelessly idealistic - refusing to back America over Vietnam, creating the Open University, engaging with Sinn Fein in the Cheyne House talks - trying to defuse the Troubles before they really kicked off.

one thing is certain - a certain cadre of mudcatters will see no virtue in whoever emerges.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 10 May 15 - 06:10 PM

Labour won't gain back any ground in Scotland unless it moves massively to the left, which it won't do, or the SNP screws up royally. Labour thinks it can only gain ground in England if it 'occupies the centre ground' as they coyly put it, which means appealing to enough voters in those huge swathes of England that are now blue. But on the one hand, the Tories are better at being Tories than the Labour Party - though the urban political elite of the mini-Blairs and mini-Mandelsons would surely feel more at home in the Tory Party. I mean, why is someone like Tristam Hunt even in the Labour Party? On the other hand, the more Labour woos Waitrose woman, or whoever the latest middle class suburban target is, the more the traditional Labour base in the Labour heartlands will feel taken-for-granted, marginalised and disenfranchised. And as that happens, the process that is already underway will continue - UKIP came second place in plenty of safe Labour seats and the turnout in some areas was appalling - 18% in Manchester Central, for example.

I don't know what the answer is, but Labour is in a double bind it won't be easy for them to get out of. I'm off to the People's Assembly meeting in Manchester this week to see what the chances are of helping to built some sort of grass roots anti-austerity alternative. If this sort of thing gains enough momentum, at least it means none of the buggers will get too easy a ride...


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Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: Musket
Date: 10 May 15 - 06:45 PM

One thing is for sure. Voters are more sophisticated than in the days of left and right.

The effect any government can have is lower than in years gone by and few people under the age of forty see themselves as traditional anything.

What I do find heartening is the huge number of voters in Scotland who voted for SNP, whose manifesto was based on prosperity through equality and who are a left leaning liberal party.

Labour? The New Labour ideal was to become the one nation party and for a while it worked. They had their left wing to deal with in the same way Cameron has his right wing faction to deal with.

Regardless of party, realists and idealists under one banner.

Nothing to see here. Nothing to get excited about. Cameron will carry out his renegotiating around the shape of Europe and commend the outcome in a referendum that he will win and his Euro sceptics will lose, The NHS will drop from front page headlines for a while and the austerity measures will fail but our industrial output will increase so it can be managed.

Funnily enough, other than the Euro referendum, about the same as Labour would have done.

Bemused as ever to see people getting excited. I wouldn't want to be poor and vulnerable over the next five years but I doubt Labour would have done any different. Even SNP for all their fine talk are making a hash of the powers they have through Holyrood.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 May 15 - 06:58 PM

Unfortunately due to very successful tory / right wing press propaganda;
as far as the average political illiterate in the 'general public' is concerned..

the word 'socialism' is fearfully & hostilely perceived as on a par with, or even worse than,
'paedophilia'

Labour supporters may whisper that pariah 'S' word in secret behind closed doors...
but are very liable to be lynched if they should ever mistakenly dare utter it again in public....😶


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Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 May 15 - 08:40 PM

Labour lost because the Tories fought a brilliant election campaign that lasted five years. Every time a Tory or LibDem politician came on telly he or she was telling us about how they were having to clean up Labour's mess. Hands up those who ever heard a convincing riposte from Labour. Thought not. And towards the end we had, not the prospect of a Labour wipeout in Scotland, but the dead cert., so the Tories were able to scare the country to death that Labour would be propped up by an SNP whose goal was the destruction of the Union. For five years Miliband has not been able to get off the back foot. In one sense that wasn't his fault, but, let's face it, he was not the aggressive, feisty, unapologetic, charismatic figure needed to take on Cameron's populist but ultimately vacuous persona. At the moment it's hard to see who is. But we don't want people who keep apologising. Gordon apologised and got slaughtered. Nick apologised and got his party annihilated. Andy Burnham apologised and that will come back to bite his bum big time. Ed Balls has been apologising now, which fatally wounds his missus. Tell us what bastards the Tories are (there's plenty of material) and stop bloody apologising! I didn't hear anywhere near enough about the cynical explosion of academies, about unqualified teachers taking classes all over the place, about useless and damaging free schools, about how NHS waiting lists are going out of control again, about food banks, about the bedroom tax, about the bloody potholes in the roads round Widemouth Bay, about the explosion of zero-hours contracts, about the terrible mistreatment of disabled people, about how bankers' bonuses are still out of control. If a Tory burbles on about how Labour wrecked the economy, remind them in no uncertain terms that the bloody Tories backed Labour's economic policies right up to the Big Crunch. They do not have the moral high ground so don't let them claim it. They would have been no different. I don't like Mandelson one bit, but I did like the bollocking he meted out this morning. The Tories are a bunch of gits, we know it, so let's take the fight to them in future. They've got hard times coming up. A majority of 12 feels like a rout, but it isn't.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 11 May 15 - 02:04 AM

I know there is more to it than this (% of GDP etc) but it seems to be that past figures show when it comes to the deficit (ie spending more than the country is making) the parties are in fact pretty similar. Why didn't Labour stress that?
From the table below I have taken a 29 year period which includes the Thatcher/Major years and then the Blair/Brown years up until the 2008 world financial crisis. So I have not included that year when the world was in economic chaos or the years since. So talking about normal spending over income during the period.
Out of the 29 years there have only been 6 years where there was not a budget deficit. Only 2 of those years were during a Tory gvt and the 3 best years were all in fact under Labour. The 2 years with the biggest deficits (1993 and 1994) were under a Tory gvt and in fact 4 out of the 5 worst deficits in this period were under Tory gvts.
I took an average of the respective years in gvt during this period and Labour's deficit was on average £16.49 billion – whilst the Tories were much the same, in fact they were slightly higher at £16.79 billion. So the idea that under normal circumstances we are the party to be trusted with the deficit and our record shows that just doesn't hold water – at least not in modern times!
Now the idea that it is the legacy of the previous gvt doesn't seem to fit either. Thatcher came into power facing a deficit of £8.4 billion but the Tory deficit hit its peak more a decade later after they themselves had run a surplus for a couple of years and Tony Blair inherited a deficit of £29.2 billion which was much larger than the previous Labour gvt had left Thatcher.
Again the idea is that despite the world crisis it was Labour who made the crisis even worse because of their spending mania. Really! Yes their deficit had increased from their surplus years but it was no worse that the Tory deficits of 1991 to 1995!
Now I know there are other factors to take into account and this is looking at one thing only but it is the one thing these parties were fixating on. It is clear that at least according to these stats neither party can boast over their record on the deficit and it has been normal that in most years there is actually a deficit.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/budget/9932748/Budget-2013-Britains-debt-and-deficit.html


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Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 May 15 - 02:25 AM

The immediate indications are that Labour is moving massively to the right. They will lose pretty much all of their old core voters. FOr example if it goes the way I think it will I will no longer be able to hold my nose and vote Labour.

But the conservatives have also leapt to the right - to the lunatic right in some cases - for example Gove is back centre stage, tasked it would seem with ensuring that any possibility of government being held to account for illegal actions (or indeed for any possibility for the poor to obtain justice) is destroyed.

So while Blue Labour may gain a foothold in what is asserted to be the middle ground there will be a large unrepresented area: the left ground.

So possibly if Left Unity and TUSC get their act together, and indeed get together with each other under a unity banner, there may be a substantial ground for them to occupy.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 May 15 - 04:31 AM

I think that history will be kinder to Blair than you all are.
He ended the war in Ireland.
He prevented a genocide of Muslims in Bosnia.
There are thousands of Balkan teenagers named after him.

Iraq was only a failure because of US mistakes made after the fall of Sadaam that left it to descend into lawless chaos.
Nothing he could have done.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 11 May 15 - 05:32 AM

Iraq was only a failure because of US mistakes made after the fall of Sadaam that left it to descend into lawless chaos.
Nothing he could have done.


"Nothing he could have done" only once he had taken us into the war.
He could have kept us out. Parliament could/would have kept us out if it were not for his lies.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: Musket
Date: 11 May 15 - 06:24 AM

You know, Keith was doing alright till he got to Iraq.

Yin and yang. There was a lot New Labour got right and a lot he did as a statesman to influence in a positive way. But the only way you can impress a red neck inbred US President with a low iq is to agree with him. The rest is, as they say, history.

Sorry Keith, you have again failed to grasp the point. The mess afterwards is irrelevant if the issue is whether there were legitimate reasons to go in in the first place. On that, Parliament was misled and that is up there with treason and sedition.

A pity. I genuinely believed in him for a long time, met him on a number of occasions and presented a proposal from a cabinet office think tank to him at No.10 on one occasion.

But all that is irrelevant. Call it misjudgement if you like, but there can never ever be a good judgement that includes lying to Pariament, especially as the Prime Minister and therefore First Lord of the Treasury. If that is allowed to happen, you may as well not bother with democracy because nanny appears to know best...


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Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 May 15 - 06:55 AM

I'm not convinced about all the talk of owning the centre ground, appealing to the middle classes, etc. Most people in reasonably well-paid work or with half-decent pensions know that it doesn't make much difference to them which lot is in power. It's wrong to assume that self-interest is the main driving force in making people vote one way or the other except for the few at the top. The Tories convinced the nation that Labour is incompetent with the economy (in spite of the fact that they're absolutely no better). They also persuaded the nation that the Scots are a dire threat to the Union. Those messages sank in, big time. The Torjes are ruthless bastards and they will not allow the truth to get in the way of their demonising. They let the LibDems take all the flak for the coalition's shortcomings then annihilated them. Ruthless, and Clegg, stupid bugger, never saw it coming. They stopped Labour's progress in England with the unfounded Scottish scare and the good old SNP did the rest. The campaign was a disaster, staying on the back foot and completely failing to take the fight to the Tories, in spite of having a ton of ammunition. Hypothetical talk about occupying the centre ground is just that, talk. Elections are won and lost on far less cerebral issues.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 11 May 15 - 06:59 AM

The other question is if a Tory-lite New New Labour government could be elected in future, would the degree of seperation from the Tories be enough to make it worth having them? Would their management of the NHS, education, the welfare system etc be enough of shade less cruel than the Tories to allow us to ignore all the other crap that goes with Blue Labour so we can lap up a few crumbs off the table? With mainstream politics in England, are those crumbs now the best we can hope for? And with the wholesale rejection of Labour by Scotland, is it all academic anyway? More questions than answers...

I also wonder if someone can explain Tory voters to me? What makes them tick? Where I live, it's Labour with the Lib Dems as the second biggest party, so I rarely get to discuss politics with Tory voters. I can't believe that all the people in the South, Midlands and pockets of the North who voted Tory are so weathly that they don't feel they need the safety net of a well resourced welfare state for themselves and their families... what drives them? Is it really the politics of 'I'm alright, Jack'? Or are they so surrounded by people who are doing ok for themselves that they can't conceive of the idea that there are swathes of ociety that aren't? Or is it all about swallowing the Tory lie about Labour rather than the bankers being responsible for the global financial disaster? Or are they just looking for a big strong daddy to look after them?


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Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 May 15 - 07:07 AM

It's swallowing the same lies that everyone else swallows plus I'm all right Jack for wealthier people. Add to that a veneer of demonising the unions and a few lies about benefits cheats and you're home. My grandad, who lived in a council house in Whitefield and worked in Salford docks, always voted Tory. The parish priest told him to, from the pulpit.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 11 May 15 - 07:26 AM

Interesting, Steve. My neighbours are from Cornwall, and reckon that there are still a swathe of Tory voters down there who gain no benefits at all from the Tories, but are still driven by a sense of deference to their 'betters'...


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Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 11 May 15 - 07:26 AM

Only tory voter I know and heard discussing things pre election is a brother of mine. He feels he has been better off over the last couple of years. I'm not convinced he would share your opinion (which I agree with you on) on the financial crash and a number of his employers (he is a self employed gardener) are very wealthy.

On the "Tory lite" bit, my own view is it shifts the perspective of the centre. Tories may be more extreme but if labour move further right, conservatives will look to go even further.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: Musket
Date: 11 May 15 - 07:29 AM

To be fair Steve, I don't think huge numbers vote on "I'm alright Jack" any more than "chippy envy." They are both sides of the same coin.

More younger voters each time there is an election. What do they know of Labour? Err.. A Tory government that business has less confidence in than the real Tories. They never saw the good that Wilson did in uniting the country, they never saw how Kinnock took on Militant, they never saw how financially inept the Major government was and they certainly didn't take on board the role of the Th*tcher years in creating a divisive society in the first place.

I think their trust is misplaced, but I blame Labour for not challenging myths, not setting out reality and frankly, for not coming over as electable to objective floating voters.

Cameron may wish to gamble with our standing in Europe but Milliband wanted to hand NHS to local councils. As somebody who has been involved in trying to unite health and social care, that frightened me almost to the point of not voting for them...


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Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 May 15 - 07:36 AM

So the defeat was due to feudal deference, religion and lies!

Even if those claims had any truth in them, Labour has shown over and over that it can win elections, even getting a majority of English seats.

It loses when it moves too far left as under Foot, Kinnock and now Milliband.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 11 May 15 - 07:37 AM

Talking of handing NHS control over to Local Councils, what about the Tories' 'Devo Manc'? Can't help feeling it could be a total disaster... the result may be the sight of the Greater Manchester Authorities doing the Tories' dirty work for them and privatising even faster than the Tories themselves would have done. Meanwhile Cameron and Co will be able to shrug and tell everyone it's none of their doing and none of their business...


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Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 11 May 15 - 07:43 AM

The thing is, Keith, the so-called centre ground has shifted so far to the right that someone who would in the past have been seen as being on the right of the Labour Party, like Milliband, can be cast as a left winger purely by being a shade to the left of the Blarites. Millaband was never any kind of left wing firebrand, nor did he claim to be. In this day and age, even Kenneth Clark is a dangerous subversive :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: Musket
Date: 11 May 15 - 07:59 AM

It could be.. The problem is that joint planning and seamless care are the outcomes people want. The Issue is that The NHS is, according to ONS, Treasury figures, Audit Commission and every other public sector regulator, far more efficient than local government. As chairman of a PCT a few years ago, I was horrified when disability aids went single budget and social services took over our service. They managed in the first year the neat trick of overspending by the first quarter and providing a lower standard of service. We however still had to handle the complaints but not able to change it...

Handing over health budgets is fine if the effect is to prevent over burdening in the first place. (Cold snap? Expect 10,000 old people entering hospital because with a little more support they could be cared for far better at home.) but that isn't what happens.

Manchester is under the spotlight. If they can pull it off, and if it can be seen to work, then so long as the success was due to far more than just progressive local government and NHS changing how it works, then it could roll out.

But I doubt it..

At the risk of agreeing with someone who gets confused when reading posts in the name of Musket, I shout from the roof tops that there is a difference between political interference and being accountable.

You can't put £105billion of tax payers money out to play and ministers say it's none of their business. Conversely, I see a future of a councillor being elected on forcing NHS to do things and the fun when doctors flick Vs at them. (Example that really happened - a councillor locally writing to Sec State to "force" a local hospital to reintroduce grommets for glue ear. No evidence for success, so no way a doctor would go against his or her clinical judgement and the only regulations in force back the doctor. A junior minister wrote back suggesting the councillor reads up on evidence based practice. But imagine a manifesto promise???)

Mind you, successive governments have tried to claim they don't interfere by interfering with reorganising the structures after every bloody election. Fingers crossed the cabinet listen to Hunt as one thing I will say for him, he regretted the Lansley reforms and sees no future in doing it again.

Conversely, when Labour said the would repeal what the last government did, it was Islington speke for reorganise yet again.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 May 15 - 08:31 AM

Yes, Keith, the lies of the rich media barons stuffed Labour - but not standing to fight the lies wa a mistake.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: GUEST,Sol
Date: 11 May 15 - 08:40 AM

Labour are now the political equivalent of a clone band.
Why would you go to see a tribute band when you can see the real thing?
Why vote for a red Tory when you can have a bona fide one?
There are very few options for any voter left of centre voters in England and I don't see the situation changing in the near or distant future.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 May 15 - 09:04 AM

Richard, if it was really the lies of rich media barons that stuffed Labour, how come we have had so many Labour governments?
Have rich media barons changed?
No.
Labour has.
It has moved to the left again and stuffed itself, again.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: Penny S.
Date: 11 May 15 - 09:41 AM

Apparently, Guardian letters - last one on page

"One significant fact not reported on in this general election is that Labour increased their share of the vote by 3.6% in England. Why is this being ignored?
Stuart Raymond"

Which rather challenges the idea that Labour was trashed because of their policies, or being perceived as too far left.

Penny


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Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 11 May 15 - 09:58 AM

On top of all the drip drip effect tory media lies,
and unprecedented orchestrated tory supporter sniping
in the new fangled internet forums and chat rooms...

In the eyes of a large mass of floating voters,
in a key TV debate,
Leanne Wood did more than anyone else to attack,
interrupt, and try to publicly derail Miliband
and make him look a flustered twat....

Divide and rule...

Cameron just stood on the sideline observing with relief and smug satisfaction
at her public display of petty divisive carping and attention seeking.

btw.. my mrs is Welsh, proud of her nation, and fancies the idea of a bit more independence...
but even so, she is dispairing of Leanne Wood's undisciplined destructive antics.

Well done Ms Wood, just look at what you achieved for even Wales
let alone the rest of us...😬


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Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 May 15 - 10:03 AM

Er, Keith, I seem to remember Murdoch siding with Blair.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: Teribus
Date: 11 May 15 - 10:09 AM

If "New" New Labour isolates the trash who did this then all the better


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Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 May 15 - 10:13 AM

Bad link.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 May 15 - 10:14 AM

You all show contempt for the electorate.
They are to blame for for the election result.
Not Murdock or rich media barons, not priests, not class deference.
They just reject Old Labour.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 11 May 15 - 10:22 AM

Keith - not 'contempt'..

but dismay

[for a multitude of complex interrelated factors..]


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Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: Musket
Date: 11 May 15 - 10:53 AM

"You all show contempt for the electorate."

Either demonstrate where I did or apologise.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 11 May 15 - 11:43 AM

Yup. Dismay.

***********************************

Terribus, demos sometimes get out of hand. The right knows all about this - check out what happens when the English Defence League or the Northern Infidels turn up in a town near you.

Despite the actions of a few of the people who turned up at the PA demo, they are a peaceful movement for change:

The People's Assembly:

1. Is a broad united national campaign against austerity, cuts and privatisation in our workplaces, community and welfare services, based on general agreement with the signatories' Founding Statement.

2. Is linked to no political party, committed to open non-sectarian working and dedicated to supplementing, rather than supplanting, trade union, student, pensioner and community opposition to austerity measures.

3. Is based on affiliation by individual supporters, unions nationally and locally, anti-cuts campaigns, and other student, pensioner, unemployed, disabled people's, women's, Black people's, youth and LGBT campaigning organisations.

4. Aspires to support, encourage, coordinate joint action, and facilitate a transfer of experience rather than to command.

5. Encourages the establishment of new local campaigns and/or People's Assemblies.

6. Organises newsletters, a website, twitter, Facebook and social media, meetings, conferences, lobbies, rallies, marches, demonstrations and other events.

7. Vehemently opposes all proposals to "solve" the crisis by discrimination or scapegoating on grounds of disability, race, religion, ethnic origin, nationality, gender, age, sexual orientation or identity.

8. Liaises closely with similar movements in other countries resisting austerity measures.

9. Encourages a wide debate on how to protect the welfare state and develop an alternative programme for economic and social recovery.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: GUEST,weerover
Date: 11 May 15 - 02:47 PM

Jack,

Next year's elections to the Scottish Parliament use a "list" system in order to produce an element of proportionality. If everyone voted as they did last week, that would still give Labour a decent number of MSPs. If there is a perceived Labour shift to the right, even those could well be in jeopardy.

wr


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Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 May 15 - 03:14 PM

Musket, you did not suggest that Labour was right and the electorate wrong.
When I said "you all" I should have exempted you.
Sorry.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: Musket
Date: 11 May 15 - 03:53 PM

Thank you


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Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 May 15 - 08:10 AM

David Milliband,
"There's absolutely no point in blaming the electorate. Any suggestion that they didn't 'get it' is wrong. They didn't want what was being offered."

Miliband said: "I think that the voters have delivered a very clear verdict. And unless Labour is able to embrace a politics of aspiration and inclusion, a politics that defies some of the traditional labels that have dogged politics for so long, then it's not going to win."

He said the choice was "very, very clear" – "either we build on what Labour achieved in 1997 and we have a chance to succeed, or we abandon it and we fail. That's what's happened in 2010, in 2015, and it mustn't happen again."


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Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 12 May 15 - 08:55 AM

... and David Milliband is some kind of serious supreme authority
whose opinions are more substantially correct than anyone elses ?????


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Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 12 May 15 - 09:48 AM

and who exactly is "blaming the electorate" ?


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Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: Musket
Date: 12 May 15 - 10:26 AM

I'm not sure. There was a suggestion that everybody was though.

Labour does need to reclaim the middle ground. We don't have an SNP to claim it in England and Wales so it shouldn't be too bloody difficult.

Five years of honing skills as opposition is generally good training ground for a would be leader. Be biggered if I know who is up to the task though. Andy Burnham has the intelligence but statesman quality? Not too sure about that. I would pop down the bookies if Alan Johnson throws his hat in the ring. I doubt I would get good odds though.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 May 15 - 10:36 AM

The Labour membership,the MPs and MEPs all voted for DM to be leader.
It was the affiliated members vote that got EM in.

That is one reason I thought it worth quoting him.
The other was that it endorsed my views.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: Musket
Date: 12 May 15 - 10:51 AM

Be buggered if I meant to say biggered in my last post.

iPad for sale.
Tsk


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Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 May 15 - 05:52 PM

I am blaming the idiots who failed to read behind the lies in Murdoch (not "Murdock") and Rothermere, and Desmond propaganda. Why don't they THINK?


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Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 12 May 15 - 06:34 PM

The daft thing is that supporting people's aspiration has always been part of a left agenda - "bread and roses" remember? It's just that the left idea was that people's aspirations were best met if all were lifted out of poverty...


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Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 May 15 - 06:40 PM

That was a factor, Richard, but Labour never had an answer to the five-year-old Tory mantra that they were "having to clear up Labour's mess". They should have been
ready to pour scorn all over that Tory lie and move on, but they were on the defensive about it all the time. During the campaign, it was the other Tory lie, that Labour would be weak and "propped up by an SNP that wanted to destroy the United Kingdom" that nobbled Labour in England. The media certainly reinforced both those messages, it can't be gainsaid, but the campaign managers behind Cameron got the required message spot on. That's what Labour must learn from.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: GUEST,allan conn
Date: 12 May 15 - 07:30 PM

Re the share of vote thing. As parties take a battering they set their sights much lower. As lots of leaders fall here in Scotland the Tory leader RuthDavidson has been praised for her campaign. Yet by share of the vote it is the worst Tory result ever in Scotland. I am amazed there is no pressure on her. Between them Labour and Lib Dems share of total vote fell by 29% and the Tories picked up none of it. In fact their share dropped too


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Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: GUEST,Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 May 15 - 03:09 AM

I can't say as I have a particular issue with New Labour. Tony Blair, IMO, was particularly good at most things until Iraq. The leadership since has, however, been particularly poor. The single thing that annoyed me most, and this was not just Labour but the ConDems as well, was the immigration bandwagon. Instead of trying to convince people that immigration was not the cause of all our ills they bowed to popular opinion in order to win votes. It didn't work for them though. They should have distanced themselves from scapegoating the wrong people and concentrated on getting to the root cause of the economic crisis - unregulated financial markets. Hope they try harder next time.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: GUEST,Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 May 15 - 03:14 AM

Should have added - unregulated financial markets both initiated and bolstered by the Conservatives. If they had held up their hands and admitted their part in that disaster as well as detailing what they would do to get out of it they may have had more credibility.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 May 15 - 04:57 AM

If Labour had won a few more seats, they would have been weak and "propped up by an SNP that wanted to destroy the United Kingdom"

It was not a lie.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 13 May 15 - 06:44 AM

"As lots of leaders fall here in Scotland the Tory leader Ruth Davidson has been praised for her campaign. Yet by share of the vote it is the worst Tory result ever in Scotland. I am amazed there is no pressure on her."

The General Election called to elect MPs to Westminster is irrelevant to the leader of any political party in the Scottish Parliament even the SNP. Any possibility at all that "tactical" voting dropped the share of the vote among non-nationalist parties?


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Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 13 May 15 - 07:26 AM

It doesn't reflect directly but it shows how the parties are standing and the Tories have made no impact into anyone's vote. There may have been a bit tactical voting but I don't think it would have been significant despite the workings of the Daily Mail etc. The plain facts are they got their lowest share of the vote ever and were just a few hundred votes away from losing their only MP and once again being without any Scottish MPs - on a night when their two main unionist rivals lost 29% of the share. Can't even be blamed on UKIP who only got about 1.6% share. And more worryingly for the Tories the 15% figure ties in with what polls seem to be showing for the Scottish elections next year. Ruth Davidson seems to think they may well be the official opposition in Scotland but that is I think real head in the sand stuff when she is only on 15% for the constituency vote. What may have been a problem for her was the Cameron/May anti-Scottish rhetoric. That can't have helped her cause at all in Scotland. Labour despite the collapse still has almost twice the popularity of the Tories. I think Labour are also far more likely to win back some of their wayward voters than the Tories are likely to win new voters. Remember they have been bobbing along on the teens percentage wise for years now! They also have the problem of a more elderly support base and membership. Time and demographics are not a friend to the Tories in Scotland


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Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 13 May 15 - 07:10 PM

According to the vote tally for this General Election UKIP share of the vote was 12.6% (3,881,129 votes) which is greater than the totals for the SNP and the Liberal Democrats combined (SNP 4.7%, 1,454,436 & Lib-Dems 7.9% 2,415,888)

The interesting thing regarding voting in Scotland is that the SNP with their 1,454,436 would still not win a vote for independence as they still do not represent the majority of voters in Scotland.

"They also have the problem of a more elderly support base and membership. Time and demographics are not a friend to the Tories in Scotland"

Don't think so Scotland's population is aging at the moment something like 40% of the working population are paying for 23% of the population drawing state pensions, in 15 years time provided unemployment remains the same 40% of the working population will be supporting 39% of the population who are qualified to draw a state pension.

This election and the surge in SNP membership has given the SNP a number of problems

1: Their presence at Westminster is of no consequence, all the boasts (Mainly by Alex Salmond) about the SNP writing the UK Budget is all hot air.

2: The surge in membership in the aftermath of the independence referendum will demand and expect a second referendum on independence during the term of the 2016 Scottish Parliament and there will be hell to pay if that is denied

3: They will undoubtedly win the Scottish Parliamentary elections in 2016 and this time the Government of Scotland will have to use the powers they have to address what they see as "Scottish" problems - just sitting back and blaming Westminster is no longer an option. They can hardly demand greater fiscal autonomy and greater tax raising powers if they are not prepared to use what powers they currently possess. That will mean increasing taxes for those living in Scotland and we will see what that does for their "popularity".


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Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: GUEST,allan conn
Date: 13 May 15 - 07:32 PM

Guest I was talking about the position in Scotland. UKIP only got 1.6% of the vote and the SNP got just over 50%. Papers round it down to 50% but it did just shade over half the total votes. Likewise i wasn't talking about Scotland's population being elderly. I was talking about Tory membership in Scotland being made up of mostly elderly people. Much more so I suspect than all the other parties. It must be problem for them. How to attract younger Scots?


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Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: Stanron
Date: 13 May 15 - 09:05 PM

The statistics can say many different things depending on what you want them to say. For instance more than 1/58th of the population of Scotland voted Tory. At the same time the average number of people needed to elect one SNP member of Westminster was disproportionally smaller than the average number of people needed to elect one Tory MP for the same place.

As for Tory voters dying out, whilst on one hand this is bound to happen, to all parties not just the Tory party, the Tory philosophy is more attractive to the elderly voter, and guess what? everyone is getting older. And another guess what? as time goes on younger people who were not politically aware during the Thatcher era will start to get older, reject the political obsessions of their parents and grand parents and start to see the attractions of an ideology that puts prudence and personal responsibility first.

In the next few years the SNP might have to put up or shut up without being able to rely on the rest of the UK to bail them out financially. We've seen in England how spendthrift socialism can ruin an economy. Maybe Scotland is about to find out too.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 14 May 15 - 02:36 AM

I think you are missing the point. It isn't about people starting to vote Tory when they get older. It is about the membership of the Tory Party in Scotland itself getting older very election and not being replaced by younger members. And that is what is happening here in Scotland. This is not me taking some stats from websites etc. It is from personal knowledge. We are a split household in that I am an SNP voter but my other half not only votes Tory but works for the Tory Party and is involved in organising the membership side. Believe me they have a real demographic problem. If you go to one of the Tory functions here then you won't feel like one of the older ones at even 65-70. The membership has an extremely high average age. I'd say the bulk here are mid 70s and well over. At 65, apart from my wife who's early 50s, one really young guy, several others and John Lamont himself then you are going to be one of the younger attendees. That is not so at for instance local SNP functions etc. I am going to be doing several songs at our new MPs celebration party on Friday night and as normal it will be a healthy mixture of ages for a membership. From the very young right through to the very old. Those are facts! Whether you want to believe it or not is neither here nor there.

As for the votes needed per seat you are perfectly correct but you can't blame the SNP for that. They have benefited at this election from the first past the post system but they themselves support PR. As do most of the other UK parties apart from the big two. As long as Labour and the Tories hold PR at arms length it won't happen. First past the post has put the Tories in gvt once again with nowhere near a majority of the overall vote and when you look at the actual stats PR hasn't worked against Labour this time nationally and without PR they would probably never again have a majority gvt. These are the two parties to moan at about the voting system.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: Stu
Date: 14 May 15 - 04:03 AM

Somewhere online there was a map showing how the second place vote went. Very interesting, lots of kipper in eastern England, lots of tory in eastern Scotland.

Nice to see the kippers imploding now too, as they wheel out their sense of victimhood again and having no-one else to blame, have started turning on each other. Nice!


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Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: Thompson
Date: 14 May 15 - 04:58 AM

Steve Shaw and GUESTsol are right. Labour is no longer a party of labour - of working people, and the clever demonisation by the Tories has ruined their party.
This seems to happen to parties, though; didn't the Tories start as a left-wing party back in the 18th century?
A party starts by advocating equality and decent life for working people, then when crisis hits, takes the line "We have to move to the right because people won't vote for us if we're left - but then when we're in, we'll actually do lefty things". This is the current stance of the Irish Labour Party, which is just passing the Tony Blair stage on its move to the right.
The reason for this, I think, is that poor people don't vote, so parties end up playing to the people who actually vote for them. The solution is to get poor people voting.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: Thompson
Date: 14 May 15 - 05:10 AM

Oh, and "Blair ended the war in Ireland"?
Northern Ireland is an odd place. I was recently at an anniversary ceremony at which a Northern Irish bishop was speaking. She was maundering on about the "two communities" (Protestant and Catholic), stared at with bored bafflement by the mainly Dublin listeners. I was puzzled too. When I said this to people from the Republic of Ireland - from Dublin, Kerry, Cork, Galway, Monaghan, Tipperary, Carlow - they said "Wha?" Here - in the Republic of Ireland - there are no "two communities". As one man said to me, "I didn't even know my friend was Presbyterian until I was invited to his wedding - it never occurred to me to ask."
Northerners are under the impression that Protestants face discrimination in "the South". Absolutely untrue. Nobody has a bull's notion what religion anyone is.
But in Northern Ireland - those six counties still under the jurisdiction of the UK - religion is all-important, and there literally are "two communities", to the extent that this bishop, who has been living and serving in the Republic of Ireland for two years, and studied in Trinity College, Dublin, assumes that Protestants and Catholics are as separate here as in the north.
Is "the war" over in Northern Ireland? I hope so, but I don't know so. In a place with such separation over something so private as religion - a place where (I recently discovered) Catholic and Protestant children do separate exams to qualify for a good secondary school - Protestants and Catholics are as separate as Serbs and Croats. And both are extreme in their thinking; it is normal for Northern Protestant politicians to fulminate against such abominations as gay marriage as forbidden in the Bible.
The shooting war has stopped, for now, but where you have "two communities" there's always the danger of a new outbreak.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 May 15 - 06:38 AM

"The shooting war has stopped, for now, "
Almost!
One of the consequences of the U.K. election result is the possible effect it will have on Ireland and the peace process.
Over the last decade the borders between North and South have all but disappeared, with free movement taking place between the two - it is now possible to move from North to South without having to pass through checkpoints or seek out 'unapproved' road.
Should the U.K. pull out of the E.U., Irish people both sides of the border will be made aware that they are living in two countries on his island.
Also affected will be free passage of goods and the free movement of labour, all of which does not auger well for the Irish people as a whole or for the peace process.
It is a nonsense to suggest the Tony Blair - or anybody "solved" the peace process - 'The Irish Problem' has never been solved by anybody, nor shall it be while partitioning remains.
History is peppered with enough examples of partitioning scattered all over the world to show that splitting a country in half to solve problems (or serve the economic and political interests of others) does not work in the long term, (or in the short term, for that matter)
'Gay marriage' should not enter the equation - Northern Ireland is subject to British law - whatever homophobic religious fanatics think.      
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: Thompson
Date: 14 May 15 - 06:52 AM

This is true to some extent - except that Britain doesn't have gay marriage in Northern Ireland, nor is abortion legal in Northern Ireland.
Northern Ireland is kind of an à la carte member of the UK - it takes the bits it likes, and not the bits it doesn't like.
In the Republic of Ireland we're currently voting on whether we should change the Constitution to allow gay marriage (there's already civil partnership). Many requests for a referendum on the 8th Amendment to the Constitution, making abortion illegal, have been ignored or deferred.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 May 15 - 07:53 AM

As you say, we've got a couple of referendums on the way - one to change the Constitution.
Will be interesting to see the response if the 'Nos' win (hope oot) - would that mean an increase of support for a United Ireland from them up North(joking of course!!)
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 14 May 15 - 11:03 AM

Membership of a political party is not a very "British" thing and is no gauge whatsoever of how people vote - I can remember people on this forum enthusing over the fact that SNP membership have surged after the referendum to over 100,000 members - well for that membership number to mean anything it has to climb to over 2,200,000.

Last time anyone looked at "Class" in a modern and up to date sense, they discovered that "Working Class" - "Middle Class" - "Upper Class" was a thing of the dim and distant past, apparently there are now seven distinct classes in society in a modern first world state - all with different aspirations and degrees of contentment and all very mobile between classes as circumstances change.

Probably that is why ranting on about a politician who left power a quarter of a century ago and moaning about closed down coalmines, steelworks and shipyards that aren't ever going to come back does not strike a chord with the voters of today - look forward not back.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: GUEST,Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 May 15 - 11:03 AM

Tried this twice so, third time lucky! Apologies if it comes through multiple times.

Glad to see that Diane Abbot agrees with my comments of 13 May 15 - 03:09 AM. Looks like at least some Labour politicians picked up on that.

In this article she comments "Labour's ex leader is a good man, but his championing of immigration controls and failure to challenge austerity give the lie to accusations of extreme leftism"

Not often that my opinions are the same as a politician!


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Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 14 May 15 - 12:20 PM

I think anyone thinking that the massive increase in SNP membership is of no consequence is on cloud cuckoo land. It has gone hand in hand with a massive change in the pattern of voting. As I said anyway there has been no improvement in Tory support and that is despite the other 2 unionist parties losing 29% of the overall share. If they couldn't pick up votes now when can they? Plus the genie is out of the bottle. The SNP have always struggled at UK level because people thought they couldn't win in many constituencies. They have now shown that they can win everywhere. Even in what was regarded as their two most unlikely places to win. In Orkney& Shetland the Lib Dem incumbent just hung on by the skin of his teeth. Here in the Borders the Tories basically had a disaster. They won 45% of the constituency vote in the last Scottish election; the SNP were second on 26.4%; the Lib Dem collapse had already happened as the former dominant party slipped to 17.3%. In the UK election history tells us that the SNP should have struggled but their share rose to 36.6%; the Lib Dems only imrproved slightly at 18.7%; and the Tories in what was their major target seat dropped to 36%. A whole 9% fall since the Scottish election, in a target seat, with the same popular candidate that won the Holyrood seat. Yet within Scotland they seem to think they did well. Seriously deluded!!

I am glad that the SNP candidate won here. He is a good lad. I wouldn't have been too broken hearted though had the Tories crept in either. John Lamont is a good guy and friend of my wife's. I'd much rather have seen him as Scotland's only Tory than David Mundell. Don't trust him to look after Scotland's interests.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 14 May 15 - 12:31 PM

"look forward not back"

The problem for the Tories though is that they have been perceived (rightly or wrongly) as an anti-Scottish party. Rather than lessening that has probably been increased in the last couple of months as leading London Tories as well as UKIP made anti-Scottish statement after anti-Scottish statement. Sacrificing potential votes in Scotland to pick up more in southern England.

That won't be forgotten quickly by many Scots. Ruth Davidson and the other leaders of the Scottish Tories were apparently livid with the tactic but again many Scots have taken note that said Scottish leaders did not speak out openly against the said tactic. Davidson touched on it and criticised it only once when pressed in an interview. So I think that the idea that the Tories are anti-Scottish, which started in the Thatcher era, is going to be around for a while yet.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 14 May 15 - 12:35 PM

How did the SNP find so many candidates in such a relative hurry.
Out of the 50 odd new MPs, how many are actually going to prove themselves
to be sufficiently up to such a strenuously demanding job ?

That 20 year old young woman talked a fine fight in the run up debates,
she's a promising star for the future,
but this isn't just vote for student union president, she's got to cope as an MP in the real world.

So what about the prospects for the rest of this new fresh crop ???


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Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 May 15 - 01:25 PM

"Labour's ex leader is a good man, but his championing of immigration controls and failure to challenge austerity give the lie to accusations of extreme leftism"
Not sure of the point your making wtith this Dave - as far as I'm concerned, Millipede's stance on immigration is a good reason not to give him your vote - he certainly wouldn't have got mine - may as well waste it on Ukip if you believe immigration to be an issue worth voting on.
Not sure where Diane Abbot stands on this either, but given her hypocrisy on privare education, I can guess - damn them all!!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 May 15 - 02:22 PM

Interestingly, stats show the Labour vote collapsing 2005-10 in C2DEsectors of the community, recovering slightly in C2D 2010-15, and tanking in E. The poor, who have nowhere else to go have either stopped voting or decided to cut their own throats and vote UKRAP. This too would seem to suggest that for Labour to go back to B.Liar or worse would be a mistake.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 14 May 15 - 03:01 PM

"The poor, who have nowhere else to go have either stopped voting or decided to cut their own throats"

..now's as good a time as any for folks to check out or reacquaint themselves
with the political theory "Hegemony"...😉


"..colluding in one's own domination.."


wiki'll do for starters...


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Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: GUEST,Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 May 15 - 05:36 PM

I made the point earlier, Jim, and referred to it again in the last post but I am happy to repeat it for you. By joining in the scapegoating of immigration rather than challenging the real cause of the financial crisis he was no different to the rest of them. To get the party back on track the new leader needs to stop running with the pack and give the electorate something positive. I read Diane Abbot's article as sending the same underlying message. But I could be wrong.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 May 15 - 04:36 AM

The poor are the ones most effected by mass immigration.
Their jobs are advertised abroad and wages depressed for unskilled work.
Rents are forced up and, while all other groups can opt for lower cost housing, they are already at the bottom with nowhere else to go.

Jim in Ireland and other comfortable lefties can preach that they do not   "believe immigration to be an issue worth voting on" but they see it as an issue that those not effected refuse to recognise.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: GUEST,Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 May 15 - 05:00 AM

The poor are 'effected' (sic) by austerity measures far more than by immigration. It was the banks that caused the financial crisis which lead to those austerity measures and the government via the media are using immigrants as scapegoat. It happened in 1930s Germany, it is still happening today and, sadly, people are still falling for it.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 May 15 - 05:01 AM

" and referred to it again in the last post but I am happy to repeat it for you"
Sorry - missed that - wrestling with the garden and haven't kept up here (feckin' bouchaláns)
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: GUEST,Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 May 15 - 05:02 AM

No probs, Jim.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: Stu
Date: 15 May 15 - 05:05 AM

"The poor are the ones most effected by mass immigration.
Their jobs are advertised abroad and wages depressed for unskilled work."


Don't confuse the effects of mass migration with those of globalisation. Wages are forced down because of a variety of factors but possibly the most insidious is the re-aligning of rates of pay in this country so large companies can compete with the manufacturing economies of China, India and the far east.

The drop in wages and living standards is intentional, and the tories are quite happy to go along with the economics of capitalism that means wages here HAVE to fall to make our consumer-led economy viable. This is why the rich get richer; their wages will never be driven down or taxed fairly whist they can foist the burden on the people and can get their political puppets to do their dirty work for them: witness the ever-continuing emasculation of the unions.

Bilderberg, anyone?


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Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 May 15 - 05:17 AM

The poor are the ones most effected by mass immigration.
Their jobs are advertised abroad and wages depressed for unskilled work.
Rents are forced up and, while all other groups can opt for lower cost housing, they are already at the bottom with nowhere else to go.


Who advertises their jobs abroad?

Who depresses their wages?

Who puts rents up?

The implication in this and earlier posts on this theme from you is that, somehow, the blind workings of the market are in play here. Well they are not. The people responsible for these actions are unscrupulous British capitalists, on the whole. Best to not forget that. It helps us to desist from blaming immigrants for all our ills.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 May 15 - 05:18 AM

People in my home county Lincolnshire are very. upset at the influx of Eastern Europeans, and the lawlessness they have bought to towns like Boston.

as keith says - its very easy if you live faraway from a problem to get sniffy and dismiss what other people are going through.

i suppose i am a comfortable lefty these days. boston was an insular sort of town - maybe the awakening was long overdue. but i think its been a rough passage for boston people.

i stood on boston green. an old school friend, who nowadays runs a quid shop was standing next to me.. Somme Eastern european looters ran out of his shop with things they'd nicked. i sad - why don't you call the police?

no point Al, he said. nothing to be done there.

my old man was a cop in boston. god knows what he would have made of it.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: Musket
Date: 15 May 15 - 05:21 AM

Why is Keith speaking of mass immigration and depressed wages?

The minimum wage is low and that is an issue But nobody is legally employed under it and any employer would take whoever is being interviewed. There is no advantage in being foreign.

Scare mongering bigotry again.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: GUEST,Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 May 15 - 05:38 AM

its very easy if you live faraway from a problem to get sniffy and dismiss what other people are going through.

Al. I am the son of a Polish immigrant. Until 2 years ago I lived in Salford which has one of the largest immigrant populations in the country and all the lawlessness I saw there was local Salford gangs shooting each other over drugs. I now live near and work in Bradford which has had a huge immigrant population since the 1970s and, again, it is the local thugs that cause all the problems. Not new immigrants. If you think you have a better handle on the issues than I have you are living in a dream world.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: GUEST,Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 May 15 - 05:50 AM

BTW, Al, How do you know they were "Eastern european looters" that ran out of his shop with things they'd nicked. Because you know or your friend know them or because immigrants are so easy to blame?


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Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 May 15 - 06:21 AM

"its very easy if you live faraway from a problem to get sniffy and dismiss what other people are going through".
It always curls me up that Christians who don sackcloth and ashes at the fate of persecuted Christians from Africa and Europe would be the first at the docks and airports with their banners telling them feck off back to where they came from, should they come to these shores to seek refuge from persecution.
Criminals are criminals, wherever they come from and god knows, we have enough of our own before we start singling out those from elsewhere - shame on you Al.   
Whether we like it or not, Britain has a huge moral, social and economic obligation to countries it has exploited down the centuries, all over the globe
As a mnation, we are as wealthy as we are because of our ability to plunder and exploit whole continents, and more often that not, we are responsible for many of the problems left behind - a bit much to wash our hands of that debt.
As far as I am concerned, Immigration has enriched British life and has opened our eyes to the fact that Britannia no longer rules the waves and we are not alone on this planet - something forgotten by many little Englanders.
We still are very much a part in exploiting the poorest nations - buying virtually slave-produced goods and ignoring that fact that yet another factory has collapsed in Bangladesh, killing yet more workers.
European looters - I'd be terrified to go to a football match at which 'English' supporters wouldn't think twice before beating up anyone of a different colour or origin, simply because they were 'foreigners'. ''wogs', 'nig-nogs'...... or any other term that has firmly established itself in the English language to welcome visitors from abroad
As far as thuggery is concerned, British is still best every time (as the adverts used to say)
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 May 15 - 07:53 AM

Telegraph yesterday,
"Foreign workers are keeping down wages because people are able to find jobs online before arriving in the UK, the Bank of England has suggested, as official figures showed that more EU migrants last year found work in the UK than Britons.
Official figures on Wednesday showed that the total number of non-UK nationals from EU countries working in Britain increased by 283,000 in the last year to reach a record 1.91 million."

"It came as the Bank said that net inward migration from European countries is having an "impact on wage pressures".
Foreigners' ability to search for jobs before they come to the UK "could make wages less responsive to domestic labour market pressures", the Bank said in a report."


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Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: GUEST,Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 May 15 - 07:58 AM

From: GUEST,Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 May 15 - 05:00 AM

... and the government via the media are using immigrants as scapegoat.


From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 May 15 - 07:53 AM

Telegraph yesterday,
"Foreign workers are keeping down wages because people are able to find jobs online before arriving in the UK, the Bank of England has suggested

Which bit of the government using the media to create scapegoats is so difficult to understand?


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Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 May 15 - 08:15 AM

"Foreign workers are keeping down wages"

Foreign workers do not determine wages. Wages are determined by the people who pay the wages, Keith.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 May 15 - 08:18 AM

Can I suggest that responding to Keith tends to close threads
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 May 15 - 08:50 AM

Not me.
It was quoting The Bank Of England.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 May 15 - 09:11 AM

You can put your money on what the Bank of England has to say on immigration - gilt edged, no doubt
As has been pointed out - employers determing wages, bot the banks, the Government and certainly not the employees.
That ruthless employers choose to use immigrants to pay peanuts, should be the business of the zookeepers, but they seem happy to allow those who choose to, yto blame the victims
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: GUEST,Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 May 15 - 09:22 AM

I suggest that anyone who can be bothered re-reads the quote carefully. It is full of weasel words such The Bank of England has suggested... having an "impact on wage pressures"... and "could make wages less responsive to domestic labour market pressures"


What a load of unmitigated twaddle. All bluster with no substance. Typical scaremongering as well as coming from a source known to support current the current administration. It doesn't surprise me that they do it but, as I have said before, the number of people who still fall for it after all these years is quite appalling.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: GUEST,Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 May 15 - 09:44 AM

Just noticed this gem as well -

Their jobs are advertised abroad

Followed a bit later by

because people are able to find jobs online before arriving in the UK

I wonder if the people making these claims know about the internet? I suspect they would be outraged to know that the proletariat can communicate across thousands of miles at the blink of eye, even outside the British Empire. I am sure they would limit the internet to only those in power if they realised. Could take lessons from Kim Jong-un, although maybe I should not even think it...


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Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 May 15 - 09:54 AM

Daily Mirror,
"Furious Ed Miliband has said he will ban firms like Next from advertising jobs abroad before they are offered to British workers.

The Labour leader tore into the clothing firm - run by Tory peer and donor Lord Wolfson - after the Mirror revealed it was advertising jobs in Poland before they were offered to local workers living near its warehouse in South Yorkshire.

Hundreds of Polish workers have been bussed in on short-term, minimum wage contracts.

Mr Miliband, a South Yorkshire MP, raged: "Lord Wolfson should know it is simply unacceptable if jobs at Next are being advertised first in Poland, only in Polish, and for significantly less than they pay their permanent staff."

Dave,
l scaremongering as well as coming from a source known to support current the current administration.

The current administration has nothing to gain by exaggerating the negative effects of immigration.
Cameron pledged to reduce it from hundreds of thousands to a few tens of thousands "no ifs not buts."
He failed.
It actually increased.
The last thing he wants to do is make an issue of it.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 15 May 15 - 09:59 AM

I think you have to distinguish between quoting from what the Bank of England is saying and quoting how the Daily Mail etc interpret what the Bank of England to be saying.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p02rby8s


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Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: Thompson
Date: 15 May 15 - 10:59 AM

From the Migration Observatory at Oxford University

In 2013, the UK population was 12.5% foreign-born (up from 7% in 1993) and 7.9% foreign citizens (up from 4% in 1993).
Foreign-born people constituted 37% of Inner London's population in 2013 (the highest share among all regions with comparable data).
India is the most common country of birth among the foreign-born, but Poland tops the list of foreign citizens in the UK.


which sounds as if Britain as a whole has a small immigrant and foreign-nationals population, but London's is much larger. Maybe that distorts how people feel?

Don't imagine that there are no immigrants in Ireland - there are plenty; a few years ago every shop clerk seemed to be Polish, then Chinese. Rumour was that these people were desperate to work, and would work for whatever pay they were offered - way below the legal rates. Now there aren't so many Eastern Europeans and the Chinese have virtually disappeared, but some Pakistanis are appearing. But plenty of Irish people are working in shops and in the other jobs these people were doing, so I suspect (with no evidence but calculation) that the Gardaí may have clamped down on underpayment.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 May 15 - 11:01 AM

interestingly enough... folks [me included] moan a fair bit about about overseas call centres..

Profiteering UK corporations shipping 'our' jobs abroad to exploit even lower paid workers..

..but I just phoned a smallish tech company in Stoke on Trent,
spoke to one of 'our' indigenous sales support workers
and could barely understand a word the bloke said....????😕

At least a good many of the Indian & other international call centre staff have clear educated diction.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 May 15 - 11:25 AM

"has nothing to gain by exaggerating the negative effects of immigration."
It has everything to gain - while the immigrants are being blamed it diverts attention from the fact that unemployment is caused by bad government policies - lazy workers, irresponsible Trades Unions - now immigrants - "nuffin' to do wiv us guv!!".
Election promises - nobody taks them seriously do they?
Five years to the next alection - politicians dpn't give a toss for what those who voted them in think.
Can't get the clickie to work, but try this
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/immigration-to-britain-has-not-increased-unemployment-or-reduced-wages-study-finds-10075047.html
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: Musket
Date: 15 May 15 - 01:09 PM

You know.. I appreciate that healthcare is not the same as some industries and doctors especially have a much higher immigrant score, due to many factors but mainly poor workforce planning and frankly, piss poor school education, hence mainly public school and those from societies with a high education ethic such as India a Sub continent, Asia etc get most of the medical school places...

But..

Whilst some like to find blame for the country they read about that doesn't actually exist, does it? And whilst some need to know their lives have been someone else's fault..

Mrs Musket and I are of the clinical community and many of our friends weren't born here. I love that when we hold a BBQ for friends and colleagues, we have a fire going with meat from the local farm shop, a fire going with halal meat, a vegetarian fire, a bar table, an imaginative soft drinks table (some great alcohol free punches in the old repertoire these days) and you know what?

I feel sorry for those who live in whatever country The Daily M*il reports about. They should live in The UK. It's great. Although certain sections, led sadly by the government need to learn manners and be more welcoming to those who want to work, whether they be born in Hereford, Hertford or Hari fucking Krishna.

I'm a bit fed up over this. Perhaps Keith could be useful and Google whether immigration has had a net contribution or a net drain on the economy? I know the answer but being an inclusive chap, I don't mind others getting the glory.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 15 May 15 - 01:50 PM

Furious Ed Miliband has said he will ban firms like Next from advertising jobs abroad before they are offered to British workers

How on earth will he do that? This , for instance, can be reached from anywhere in the world. As can this one in Germany. Or this one in Poland. Miliband jumped on the scaremongering bandwagon and paid the price. You can no more ban advertising jobs abroad than you can stop politicians lying. More obfuscation and nonsense from the popular press.

And of course the present administration wants to draw attention to immigration. It is the easiest way to put people off the real issues of financial and administrative mismanagement that have brought the economy to it's knees.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: GUEST,Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 May 15 - 01:52 PM

Me above. Seems if I put my Guest handle in the post does not take :-( Tried it about 6 times from both Firefox and Chrome and from work and home. Anyone any explanation? :-S


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Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: GUEST,Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 May 15 - 01:53 PM

...although it did then. Hmmmm. Mudcat works in mysterious ways!


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Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: Musket
Date: 15 May 15 - 02:24 PM

Perhaps my son should have been stopped from applying for the post doc post in California he just applied for??

Just proof that for politicians, getting votes is easy. Tell them whatever they want to believe. You don't have to actually carry out what you can't anyway.

I always worked on the assumption nobody was shallow enough or gullible enough to see it as anything but bluster.

But then I logged into Mudcat...


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Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 May 15 - 02:59 PM

"Furious Ed Miliband has said he will ban firms like Next from advertising jobs abroad before they are offered to British workers"

NEXT
"In May 2014 the Living Wage Foundation bought Next shares and attended the Annual meeting in an attempt to persuade the company to pay at least £6.70 and become one of the UK's 700 living wage employers. Next was targeted because it claimed to be a good employer and was thriving. Professor Sir George Bain who set the minimum wage in 1999 said employers could afford to pay much more but acknowledged enforcement could cause unemployment in the retail sector. In October 2014, the company was one of several retailers criticised by Janice Turner in The Times for failing to pay a living wage. UK taxpayers pay £28billion to low paid workers and Turner says retail companies -which have the highest proportion of low paid workers -are exploiting austerity and effectively adding staff wages to the UK welfare bill. When asked why, despite record profits their lowest paid workers were so poorly paid, Next replied that they had 30 applicants for every job advertised."
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: GUEST,Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 May 15 - 03:38 PM

Musket - Like :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 May 15 - 05:19 PM

whats happening in Boston is easily observable, and was brought to my attention a few years ago when spent an evening with an old school friend , famous on the folk scene, who had stayed in the town that i left aged fifteen.

check out the late night police procedural program late night on satellite tv following round lincolnshire police cars - not many Linclonshire accents there. pretty much confirms everything i was told.

of course you're right. things tend to work themselves out. the early days of Jamaicans - when lots of unattached men were coming over were famously rumbustious.

societies have to change. not much fun to be in the heart of that change.

the first time i went ireland, i stayed with a jamaican family who were fed up with the racism of Irish people and were getting out - coming back to England. from what they told me i don't think you be so self righteous Jim.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: Musket
Date: 16 May 15 - 03:39 AM

Boston once imprisoned William Brewster and Thomas Bradford for religious oppression and intimidating normal people, after the authorities around here failed.

Are you telling me something has happened there since Al?

I used to know a young lady from Boston who went around folk festivals with a tight T Shirt with "Tremblers" written on it. Purely out of non interest.

I was brought up in an area where Polish, Ukrainians and others had huge numbers, their own working mens clubs and brought their culture with them.

In 1945

The pits didn't implode. Ferrets didn't move to the Home Counties in disgust and black pudding didn't become smokey flavoured.

Perhaps some in Boston are pointing all six fingers unwisely....


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Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 May 15 - 04:35 AM

"i don't think you be so self righteous Jim."
I have never suggested that there is no racism in Ireland Al - on the contrary, I have raised it, particularly in regard to Travellers, on numerous occasions.
Of course there is racism here - mainly in the cities - last year I pointed out that Loyalist groups up North (in the English bit of Ireland) with time on their hands were active in burning out Europe families who had settled there.
What you don't have here to any extent is institutional racism by the authorities - still rife in Britain, particularly in the police force.
You don't have political parties going to election on a racist or anti-immigration ticket - commonplace in Britain.
You don't have massive campaigns by the media against foreigners and immigrants that I view regularly in 'The Times (one of the better English tabloids which I take daily for the Quizword!)
I make no special case for Ireland - racism is evil wherever it happens, and if it ever becomes a major problem here, I'll be first up on the soapbox.
Do not accuse me of being self-righteous - I'm a Brit living in Ireland and I hold no brief for what I believe to be wrong, wherever it happens
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 16 May 15 - 05:09 AM

Jim is right there is racism everywhere. Which bring me to a story I heard last week. One of my friends has a daughter on university exchange in Boston. That is Boston in the States of course not Lincolnshire. Anyway she's tried to get involved in lots of things and went along to an anti-racism group meeting with one of her new American friends. It turns out that she was the only white person at the meeting and she said that she was basically shunned by the bulk of the group and a few of whom were openly hostile to her. She had never experienced anything like it before and was quite upset. Her friend explained that because some members didn't like speaking in front of members of the oppressive white majority they normally weren't invited to attend and the only reason they even let her in was because she was foreign. No amount of talking could convince her friend the absurdity of the idea that people should be excluded from an anti-racism meeting because of their race!


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Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: GUEST,Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 May 15 - 05:15 AM

So, Al, you still have not told us how you or your friend knew that the people you observed running out of the shop were east Europeans. You are now telling us that an entertainment program which shows a number of, shall we say, interesting cases is proof that there are hoards of immigrants looting and pillaging their way across Lincolnshire. Have you read nothing anyone has said about the media demonising immigrants? Do you think it would make good TV if they went into a Polish household and showed them making the tea? Do you really believe that because a TV program shows a few Lithuanian criminals it must be representative of the whole culture? Or that that culture has a higher proportion of criminals that any other? Shame on you.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 May 15 - 05:28 AM

This is not about racism, and not about the Daily Mail which no-one has quoted once.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 May 15 - 05:41 AM

Signed back in now - Found out that Guests cannot post multiple links. Although I did seem to get round it :-S

Keith - I know your last post was not addressed to me but when someone starts to suggest that immigrants are more likely to be criminals than the indigenous population then I am afraid it is racism. I know that was not you and, even though I believe you are politically and economically wrong about immigration, I do not think you are being racist about it. That is Big Al.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 May 15 - 06:11 AM

"This is not about racism"
Racism goes through British politics like Blackpool goes through rock - sadly.
It is certainly a part of the debate on immigration which is linked to this thread by Millipede's "championing of immigration controls".
As for the bum-wipe Daily Mail - part and parcel of racism and anti-immigration in Britain - and has been quoted once and mentioned in passing twice.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 16 May 15 - 08:29 AM

So it's OK to refer to Ed Milliband as "Millipede", but not to refer to Chuka Umunna as "Chuka Banana". That is lefty logic is it???


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Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 May 15 - 08:38 AM

Neither is even remotely OK in my opinion. The latter is worse because of its racist overtones. Both are easily avoided, which I think is the point.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 16 May 15 - 08:47 AM

Why should they be avoided Mr Seesaw?? That is my point.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 May 15 - 09:04 AM

"Chuka Banana". That is lefty logic is it???
Chucka Banana - and such mudslinging is historically a racist term
That's common sense nothing to do with being 'leftie'
I'm sure everbody is aware of the gold old English practice of throwing nuts and bananas on the pitch at football matches when black players are playing
No racism in calling politicians insects - most of them are worms
Jim Carroll

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2616673/Football-fan-accused-throwing-banana-Dani-Alves-arrested-Spain-inciting-hatred.html

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/4046821/Twenty-four-years-after-racist-football-fans-threw-bananas-at-John-Barnes-how-


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Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 16 May 15 - 09:19 AM

Am I supposted to be a football fan Mr Barrell? - I can assure you I'm not, so the nuts and bananas thing is news to me.

NEITHER AM I OBSESSED WITH FINDING RACISM IN EVERYTHING SAID.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 May 15 - 09:50 AM

The Daily Mail has not been quoted once on this thread, except by you Jim.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 May 15 - 09:59 AM

this is bollocks. i could tell you i spotted high slavic cheekbones and heard Polish accents - but i'm not a liar. i just tell you something i saw and you say i'm a racist.

its this sort of dumb abuse that leads to people leaving mudcat.

how come the BNP   attacked me and made me a target of their internet smear campaign - not the gnomic utterances of Dave, or the oh so telling 16th century traditional folksingers? why - cos i tell it like it is - and frankly that makes you just as much an enemy of the truth as the BNP/UKIP bastards.

comparing a settled Polish community to what has happened in lincolnshire is nonsense. because of European legislation its more like the Klondike goldrush. and Boston by all accounts has more than its share of Eastern european Dangerous Dan McGrews.

in the nottinghamshire village i lived in for thirty years i was always an outsider. we were a lancashire/irish family n moving to Boston during the war, we were outsiders. in the nottinghamshire village - thugs attacked the Asian family's children - the people who took over the newsagents shop. villages, Jim , can be foul styes of racial intolerance.

finally for you keith, who complains there is not enough about the daily mail - here is a short poem i wrote last year

Ed Milliband is a Bastard

Ed Milliband is a bastard
We call him Ed the Red
And if he gets elected
You'll wish that you were dead.
He has bad breath and dandruff
His farts are loud and smelly
He is much more objectionable
Than he looks on telly
But you can read the sorry facts
Behind Ed's dismal tale
Its there with all the gossip
In tomorrow's Daily Mail

Ed Milliband is a stinker
lets stick to all the facts
He looks like he's a paedo
And he's bound to charge more tax
He'll give back all the loot Brave Maggie won
From all those nasty frogs
He'll build luxury homes and give out cash
To all the scrounging wogs
But more will be revealed my friends
Next week in The mail, you'll see
Moreover we will give away
A brand new DVD

Ed Milliband is a stinker
He's run by Moscow central
We should hang, draw and quarter him
And then burn his entrails
Theres rumours about his drinking
the parties and the drugs
And that isn't his real hair, you know
he has to wear a rug
We've seen the picture of Stalin
That every night he kisses
Not to mention the heroes graves
On which regularly he pisses
But theres more revelations
so watch now without fail
All the front page news my friend
In next years Daily Mail.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 May 15 - 10:36 AM

They should be avoided, depending on context of course, for the same reason that medical textbooks don't refer to cocks, tits, bumholes, bollocks and fannies. Note that I didn't say MUST be avoided. Though if you do use pejorative phrases instead of real names for persons who are not in a position to answer back, you may be in danger of saying more about yourself than about them. As with the Daily Mail, for example, calling Miliband "Red Ed", which tells us all we ever need to know about the Daily Mail but precious little about Miliband. However, it's a free country. Though references to bananas or monkeys in the context of black people tend to brand you a racist. Of course, if that's what you want...

It's Steve, by the way. Stephen if you're my mother. You're not, are you?


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Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 May 15 - 11:28 AM

i just tell you something i saw and you say i'm a racist.

No, you didn't, Al. You said you saw some east European immigrants looting a shop. You never told us how you knew they were east European immigrants. If you only assumed they were east European because they were looting then, yes, you are being racist. I always think the best about people and have always found you honest and open before so it was with great regret that I had to condemn the comment as racist. Tell us how you know they were east European and prove it was not a racist comment or accept that it was and apologise for it. Seemples, as the east European animals taking over our TV say...


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Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 May 15 - 11:43 AM

" I can assure you I'm not, so the nuts and bananas thing is news to me. "
Me neither Mr Bozo - but I tend to live on planet earth and read newspapers and am fully aware of the frequency of such behaviour, and the fact that "banana-eating savages" has been in existence as a racist slur for most of my long life.
I am also aware that a trial has not long taken place of a bunch of footballers using such a slur, so it is not "rfinding" things in anything - is is the stark reality of some people's lives in today's Britain - if you don't have to live with it, others have to.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 16 May 15 - 12:20 PM

No, thank goodness our multicultural street full of very nice people who do not have to live with it.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 May 15 - 12:46 PM

Al, I did not complain that Daily Mail was not quoted, I just refuted claims that it was.
Good poem though.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 16 May 15 - 12:55 PM

Corretion - No, thank goodness our multicultural street IS full of very nice people who do not have to live with it.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 May 15 - 01:11 PM

just go there and see for yourself , Dave. talk to the people.

i didn't make a note and codify what i saw, but that was the very strong impression i got.

you're too handy with that racist insult. it is grossly insulting, and why the fuck should i lie. it goes against everything politically i would wish to be so. but that's how it was and how it is.

its an inconvenient truth, but it remains a truth. i will not retract it because you're too disinterested in the facts.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: Musket
Date: 16 May 15 - 01:20 PM

Whether something gets a label called racist or not, it isn't the label but the contents.

Calling Milliband Millipede doesn't say anything about his race, religion, physical or mental ability, gender or sexual orientation. It is pure satire of someone who wants to govern and by that, he needs scrutiny. Satire helps understanding by light relief.

Bringing a banana into it? Fine, assuming you mean David Milliband and the awkward photo of him with a banana.

But to remind people that someone is black?

I wondered who it was that threw bananas at John Barnes years ago..

By the way Keith. You mention Daily M*il in every single post. It doesn't necessarily mean Dacre's puerile shit, it means content worthy of his pathetic organ. By squawking that you never mentioned it doesn't mean you aren't paraphrasing it.

And Polly isn't a pretty fucking boy then.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 May 15 - 01:24 PM

"you're too handy with that racist insult. "
"i spotted high slavic cheekbones and heard Polish accents "
Hmmm!!
No hooked noses and waving scimitars?
I wonder if they spoke with local accents would you have described them as indigenous criminals?
All communities have their share of criminality - the fact that some of them come from immigrant ones says nothing about the communities - but it does about those who make a point bringing race and country of origin into the conversation
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 16 May 15 - 01:46 PM

FOR FUCK SAKE, THE REASON I USED BANANA IS BECAUSE IT SOUNDS VERY SIMILAR TO UMUNNA AND FOR NO OTHER REASON WHATSOFUCKINGEVER - GET IT INTO YOUR LEFTY SKULLS. I DO NOT EAT DRINK AND SLEEP RACE, LIKE YOU SEEM TO - VERY VERY SAD INDEED.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: GUEST,Modette
Date: 16 May 15 - 01:53 PM

Bonzo daft person, if you think 'banana' sounds like 'umunna' you probably need your ears syringed, or your brain removed with a hook via your nostrils.

What a nasty piece of work you are!


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Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 May 15 - 01:55 PM

By the way Keith. You mention Daily M*il in every single post.

I have not mentioned it at all except to refute that anyone quoted it.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 May 15 - 01:56 PM

No it doesn't, not very much. But banana goes with his first name, not his surname, as a play on words which is out-and-out racist when referring to a black man. It actually sounds to me like you do eat, drink and sleep race as, unlike most of us, you search around for an insulting stereotype instead of just using the bloke's name.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 May 15 - 01:58 PM

'umunna' sounds closer to banana than any other word, or name, that I can think of.
Anyone got a better match?


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Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 May 15 - 02:05 PM

read my post more carefully.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 May 15 - 02:09 PM

Hardly the point, Keith. It's his name. There is no reason on earth to change it. Especially for an unfunny and severely misfiring "joke".


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Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: GUEST,Mod
Date: 16 May 15 - 02:44 PM

'umunna' sounds closer to banana than any other word, or name, that I can think of.
Anyone got a better match?


Try bandana, Diana, savannah, cabana, Havana, Fontana for starters (obviously depedent upon Brit of US pronunciation).


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Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: GUEST,Modette
Date: 16 May 15 - 02:45 PM

Sorry, the 'Mod' was me.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 May 15 - 03:23 PM

"THE REASON I USED BANANA IS BECAUSE IT SOUNDS VERY SIMILAR TO UMUNNA"
"'umunna' sounds closer to banana than any other word, or name, that I can think of."
Snap - two idiots in the same deal
VERY VERY FUNNY INDEED.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: Musket
Date: 16 May 15 - 03:32 PM

Sniff Sniff.

A bit of a stench around here.

Sad.


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This Thread Is Closed.


Mudcat time: 4 April 7:40 AM EDT

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