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BS: Evita Peron - whore

Bonzo3legs 07 Dec 14 - 07:25 AM
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Subject: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 07 Dec 14 - 07:25 AM

My wife has been recalling her days at an English school in Buenos Aires during the Peron regime. Aparently all of the schoolbooks were taken away and replaced by new ones with all names replaced by Peron and glorification of his whore wife Evita. She also remembered being taken home by the military on more than one occasion during a revolution, and on one occasion at bayonet point!

Any other Argentines have similar experiences??


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: Raggytash
Date: 07 Dec 14 - 07:34 AM

Do you mean Eva Peron


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 07 Dec 14 - 07:41 AM

Evita means "little Eva" like cafesito - for an espresso.


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: GUEST,
Date: 07 Dec 14 - 07:53 AM

so what of 'mosquito'?


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: Ed T
Date: 07 Dec 14 - 09:21 AM

Or, would Juanita, be a little Juan?


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: Musket
Date: 07 Dec 14 - 09:25 AM

I thought juanita meant having just one tooth?


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: Ed T
Date: 07 Dec 14 - 09:48 AM

one eater 


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: Ed T
Date: 07 Dec 14 - 10:26 AM

Jaunita was swaying 


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: wysiwyg
Date: 07 Dec 14 - 12:19 PM

Offensive thread.

~S~


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: Don Firth
Date: 07 Dec 14 - 12:43 PM

Hell of a musical (Andrew Lloyd Weber and Tim Rice).

Elaine Paige belting out "Don't Cry for Me, Argentina...."

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: gnu
Date: 07 Dec 14 - 01:31 PM

I agree with ~S~. The title violates the #1 rule at Mudcat in one word.


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 07 Dec 14 - 01:48 PM

I agree with Gnu and WYSIWYG-this thread is offensive. It should be deleted immediately. Bonzo3Legs--you've been around long enough to know better.


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 07 Dec 14 - 01:51 PM

Oh for heavens sake, offensive to who tell me??


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: olddude
Date: 07 Dec 14 - 02:07 PM

I like velveta cheese she invented makes good dip


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: olddude
Date: 07 Dec 14 - 02:10 PM

In the musical don't they yell velveta velveta in honor of cheese.. I am notmuch on politics.


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: Ed T
Date: 07 Dec 14 - 02:21 PM

Velveeta Shortage Alarms Consumers By Elton Camp
(Possibly, without permission from Kraft Foods)

Short supply is beginning to ensure
Cheese lovers don't know what to do
There's panic buying in the store
Unsure when they'll be any more

Velveeta's so good and healthy too
Gourmets are hoping it's not true
So all who love its rubbery taste
Rush to the market with all haste

There's good reason to fear
From shelves it'll disappear
So better quickly shove and grab
To take as yours that final slab

The shortage is real and severe
Sans Velveeta, life will be austere

© Elton Camp 2014 . All Rights Reserved.

Comments


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: olddude
Date: 07 Dec 14 - 02:30 PM

Say it isn't so no velveeta oh know. There goes my foot ball food. Next it will be my five alarm chili


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: olddude
Date: 07 Dec 14 - 02:31 PM

Oh no.. Dang spell check on my phone


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: GUEST,mayomick
Date: 07 Dec 14 - 02:45 PM

Do unto others, Bonzo How would you like it if somebody called your wife a whore ?


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: gnu
Date: 07 Dec 14 - 02:47 PM

"Oh for heavens sake, offensive to who tell me??"

To ~S~. To others. You call Peron a whore and not even explain why? That is my beef.

I am trying to avoid useless argument these days so I won't be back. Have fun with it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: olddude
Date: 07 Dec 14 - 03:25 PM

But do you like velveeta cheese gnu


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: Ed T
Date: 07 Dec 14 - 03:37 PM

I expect everyone have left thd thread for the grocers get some-before it is all gone?


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: Ed T
Date: 07 Dec 14 - 03:39 PM

""I love Velveeta cheese.""
Dolly Parton


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: Ed T
Date: 07 Dec 14 - 03:46 PM

velveeta cheese and banjo playing 


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: Ed T
Date: 07 Dec 14 - 03:49 PM

Dip season threatened 


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: Ed T
Date: 07 Dec 14 - 03:54 PM

Dobt panuc, because if the shortage. While not the real thing, you can get through the bad times by making your own Velveeta at home.


Artificial, home-made Velveeta 


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Dec 14 - 04:03 PM

Aaaaaahhh - plastic "cheese"!
Artificial garbage. An insult to the name 'cheese'.

This Is cheese.


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: Ed T
Date: 07 Dec 14 - 04:14 PM

""Don't cry for me, Cambazola"


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Dec 14 - 04:54 PM

Or even Gorgonzola.


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: GUEST,#
Date: 07 Dec 14 - 04:57 PM

The real deal.


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Dec 14 - 05:06 PM

Ask any Argentine/Anglo-Argentine in the UK........they will tell you "que puta" !!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: GUEST,
Date: 07 Dec 14 - 05:29 PM

Even if the thread WAS offensive, the subsequent contributors have dissipated this by promptly turning it into a joke thread - hooray for mudcat. Where's the Wensleydale?


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 Dec 14 - 05:35 PM

You call Peron a whore and not even explain why?

Do even some minimal checking on Argentine history & the fascist dictator Juan Domingo Perón & his secong wife Eva & it will become readily apparent very quickly, gNewzer...


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: Leadbelly
Date: 07 Dec 14 - 05:50 PM

Let's talk about Angela Merkel of Germany and Obama. Would be the same.


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: GUEST,Blind DRunk in Blind River
Date: 07 Dec 14 - 05:51 PM

Where can I find this woman?

- Shane


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: Jeri
Date: 07 Dec 14 - 06:27 PM

First, Shane, get a shovel.

Half and half Cheese Whiz and Pace salsa (because it's really good salsa). This is the best con queso dip ever!


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 07 Dec 14 - 07:07 PM

"You call Peron a whore and not even explain why?"

I, as the husband of an Anglo-Argentine do not have to explain why. The Perons were mudering fascist bastards.


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Dec 14 - 07:10 PM

I always thought Evita was supposed to be some kind of hero.
But Madonna played her in the movie, so maybe she was a whore.


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Dec 14 - 07:27 PM

Bongo Shit calls people fascists?

With cack like this in the majority, encapsulates why no one posts to Mudcat any more.


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: olddude
Date: 07 Dec 14 - 07:36 PM

Velveeta we eat a


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: olddude
Date: 07 Dec 14 - 07:37 PM

One time my mom put velveeta in jello. The horror


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Dec 14 - 07:51 PM

"No one posts to Mudcat anymore" for 2 reasons:

1. The membership is slowly dying off.

2. There are a few people here who are so emotionally toxic that they've driven a lot of the more pleasant people away over the last 10 years or so. They are mostly vicious old men with beards, most of them live in the UK, nursing ancient grudges over their pint of ale, and you can usually find them attacking each other with vitriolic scorn on the political threads...but sometimes in the music section too. Reading their sarcastic diatribes can provide some light entertainment on a dull day, though.


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 Dec 14 - 08:12 PM

Let's talk about Angela Merkel of Germany and Obama. Would be the same.

Hardly. Your ignorance is showing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: Ed T
Date: 07 Dec 14 - 08:27 PM

"I loathe the loathesome loathing"


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: olddude
Date: 07 Dec 14 - 08:27 PM

I loathe jello


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: Ed T
Date: 07 Dec 14 - 08:37 PM

Strictly Germ Proof

The Antiseptic Baby and the Prophylactic Pup
Were playing in the garden when the Bunny gamboled up;
They looked upon the Creature with a loathing undisguised;—
It wasn't Disinfected and it wasn't Sterilized.

They said it was a Microbe and a Hotbed of Disease;
They steamed it in a vapor of a thousand-odd degrees;
They froze it in a freezer that was cold as Banished Hope
And washed it in permanganate with carbolated soap.

In sulphurated hydrogen they steeped its wiggly ears;
They trimmed its frisky whiskers with a pair of hard-boiled shears;
They donned their rubber mittens and they took it by the hand
And elected it a member of the Fumigated Band.

There's not a Micrococcus in the garden where they play;
They bathe in pure iodoform a dozen times a day;
And each imbibes his rations from a Hygienic Cup—
The Bunny and the Baby and the Prophylactic Pup. 
— Arthur Guiterman


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: Amos
Date: 07 Dec 14 - 08:50 PM

My BBW can still recite every syllable of that from memory; but I don't quite see what it has to do with the sad story of Argentina, whose chief hidden villain was our own Central Intelligence agency and the World Bank.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Dec 14 - 08:54 PM

Aha! You have reached the heart of the matter, sir. And with brevity.


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: Ed T
Date: 07 Dec 14 - 08:55 PM

""... but I don't quite see what it has to do with the sad story of Argentina, whose chief hidden villain was our own Central Intelligence agency and the World Bank.""

Life's a "whore" when you stop and try and figure things like that out ;)


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: Ed T
Date: 07 Dec 14 - 08:57 PM

""our own""

Well, factually speaking, not "everyone's", I suspect?


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 Dec 14 - 09:10 PM

whose chief hidden villain was our own Central Intelligence agency and the World Bank.

As opposed to the manifest villains, Peron & company.


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: Ed T
Date: 07 Dec 14 - 09:14 PM

try this oldedude 


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: Don Firth
Date: 07 Dec 14 - 09:29 PM

Frankly, not knowing all that much about Eva Peron, I did a bit of Googling.

It seems to me that one helluva lot of people have given her a bad press, when, in actuality, she did a lot of good for a lot of people in Argentina. And although Juan Peron is often accused of being a Fascist, there seems to be little evidence that this was actually the case.

She was the poverty-stricken illegitimate daughter of a guy who had two families, one legal and one on the side. She had to live by her wits early one, became an actress and radio personality, and one thing led to another until she married Juan Peron—and had a substantial influence on his policies in terms of things that are generally regarded as liberal causes: welfare for the poor, women's rights, etc. She died early (age 33) of cancer, and is generally revered by a large number of Argentinians.

So how come she's a "whore?"

Cast an eye over the following material. Most enlightening.

CLICKY #1, and CLICKY #2.

What's the justification for such a harsh epithet?

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: olddude
Date: 07 Dec 14 - 10:03 PM

I know less than nothing about her. However she was cute


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: olddude
Date: 07 Dec 14 - 10:16 PM

Cia always gets blamed for everything. In fact they get called to shovel off the shit our political leaders create. It's like being a trash collector.


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: michaelr
Date: 07 Dec 14 - 10:18 PM

Hello, Little Hawk. Good to hear from you. I'm sure I'm not the only one here who misses your well-considered posts.


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 07 Dec 14 - 10:22 PM

Assuming for the purposes of discussion that she was evil and a murderess, neither of those things makes her a whore. Looks like Bongo believes that women only exist for one purpose.

The reason, IMHO, that posts are down is the toxic presence here of a limited number of members of the insane political right.


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: olddude
Date: 07 Dec 14 - 10:40 PM

Lets ask our resident whore chongo what do you say there chongo


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: Joe Offer
Date: 08 Dec 14 - 02:33 AM

It's hard to know the truth about a woman so shrouded in propaganda. I generally don't think that people (particularly politicians) are half as bad as their opponents make them out to be. Apparently, Eva Peron was revered by many after her death. If she were as horrible as some say she was, why would she be so popular?
So, as in many things, I just don't know. I'd like to see a balanced, informative analysis of her.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 08 Dec 14 - 02:54 AM

Why would she be popular?? Because in Argentina, the mob are so easily led. How do you think the present abomination Cristina Kirshner was elected twice as president???


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: Ed T
Date: 08 Dec 14 - 03:01 AM

Brief biography 


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: Ed T
Date: 08 Dec 14 - 03:03 AM

Oops, reposted earlier linked material by mistake.


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: Musket
Date: 08 Dec 14 - 03:17 AM

She can't be bad because she was revered after her death? Deja vu. Someone on another thread is saying Earl Haig wasn't the butcher of The Somme on the basis of the turnout for his funeral.

I too think the word whore in a title is wrong. Inside the thread you can perhaps try to justify your stance and again inside a thread I'd be the last person to complain about bad fucking language.

One thing I do like about this thread is whilst Little Hawk waffles on about why he thinks English contributors are the death of this website, his compatriots are talking about tasteless plastic and assuming "cheese" means the same as the word does over here.

Mind you, The Cheese Shop in Carmel CA has a rough idea to be fair.


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 Dec 14 - 03:43 AM

I like jello. And jelly. And cheese - but only real cheese, not that plastic shit that Kraft are poisoning the unsuspecting unwashed with.


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 Dec 14 - 03:51 AM

'Jello' and 'jelly' are used above in the ex-Colonial senses, of course.
In real English, the original version spoken by native Englishmen, the correct terms are 'jelly' and 'jam' respectively. :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 08 Dec 14 - 04:12 AM

65 posts and no real explanation of the title. i know next to nothing about eva peron - (didn't even understand what the song was about) so was quite intrigued by the thread title. could we have a few concrete reasons to justify the insult from those who know about it? cheers


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: Ed T
Date: 08 Dec 14 - 04:32 AM

This is what I gathered from what I have read in the past, Argentines are quite uncertain about who they are from a national identity? This was made more complex by the influx of poor rural residents and immigrants to the urban areas, which changed the urban landscape (some see as in a negative way)..

My understanding is Juan Peron and his wife Eva based their political base on support from the poor rural migrants (mestizos) to the urban areas (especially Buenos Aires) . When the Perons were in power, this group gained from the Peron government. Eva Peron earned a special place in the hearts of the lower class groups, as she frequently fook a central rolen in reaching out to the poor. However, this change toward emplasizing the plight of the growing urban poor angered the influential urban middle class, the formerly politically powerful land owners and the military leaders. Eva's emphasis on promoting womens rights likely added to her dislike by those who favoured the status quo.

I welcome comments on this assessment, to give me a better (accurate) understanding of this period in Argentinas history.

Possibly because of a significant German population in Argentina, the country remained neutral for much of WW2. This, combined with long-standing strained relations and rivalry with Great Britain, added to the belief that the Peron government was sympathetic to the German war effort. It added fuel to the dislike of the Perons.


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: Ed T
Date: 08 Dec 14 - 06:22 AM

The Official Eva Peron website- Evita - The True Story of Evita Peron

bio-part 1 

Bio, part 2 


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: beeliner
Date: 08 Dec 14 - 06:55 AM

I'm certainly no expert on the political history of South American dictatorships. I remember when Eva died and my grandmother telling me what a great humanitarian she was and how she raised the living standards of the poor.

That the Peron regime was politically oppressive I have no doubt.

I was never a Madonna fan, I considered her only talent to be that of self-promotion, but a gotta admit, she was excellent as Evita.

And by the way, it's an opera, not a musical.


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Dec 14 - 07:24 AM

"The reason, IMHO, that posts are down is the toxic presence here of a limited number of members of the insane political right".

The reason, IMHO, that posts are down is because of comments like the above by intolerant "intellectual socialists" who try to deny anyone else the right to an opinion.

Little Hawk has it in one.

"They are mostly vicious old men with beards, most of them live in the UK, nursing ancient grudges over their pint of ale, and you can usually find them attacking each other with vitriolic scorn on the political threads...but sometimes in the music section too".

Know anyone that fits that description Richard?


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: Musket
Date: 08 Dec 14 - 07:43 AM

Far be it from me to defend Bridge but that sounds hilarious coming from someone hiding behind guest.

I notice that some people complain they are challenged when they come out with comments that are offensive in one way or another.


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: wysiwyg
Date: 08 Dec 14 - 08:57 AM

Bonzo, I'm sorry for your troubles over the painful history.

As a woman, it hurts me to see a negative stereotype about ANY woman when I skim the thread list each day. It hurts ALL women when these words are bandied about. In some cultures I suppose 'whore' is merely a job title; in the US it's a nasty pejorative. It's a stereotype because women, based on female sexuality, have historically been blamed for bad things men do. (I don't countenance stereotyping of men either BTW.)

It might be possible even now just to ask a mod to change the thread title to point up the controversy about Eva Peron with different language.

~Susan


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: GUEST,John P
Date: 08 Dec 14 - 09:09 AM

Bonzo3legs:
"I, as the husband of an Anglo-Argentine do not have to explain why."

Yes you do. I don't give a flying fuck who you are married to. Did she actually take money for sex? If so, did she have any choice in the matter?

You seem to be out of touch with the growing realization that prostitutes are almost always victims, not criminals. You have a derogatory word for prostitutes; what's your term for the men who victimize them? You know, the men who spend money on prostitutes? And the men who call them whores?

My word for you is asshole.


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: GUEST,John P
Date: 08 Dec 14 - 09:35 AM

Ah Susan, you were posting while I was writing. I'm glad someone else is aware that the word "whore" implies blaming the victim.

There are three reasons that I come to Mudcat a lot less than I used to:
- Max has created a forum for hate speech. He doesn't seem willing to do anything about it. It's disgusting and reprehensible. I strongly disagree with the notion that a website owner doesn't bear any responsibility for what gets posted on their site. Unmoderated discussion sites are too often simply offensive. The title of this thread is hate speech and it's been there for more than 24 hours.

- Most people here don't know how to conduct a debate. The same illogical and unfactual things get written over and over by the same people and no one cares. Unmoderated discussion sites are too often a waste of time.

- Trolls are to be expected. But there are a number of people here who respond to trolls every time. Most threads get high-jacked, not by trolls, who can be ignored, but because of the people who answer them. I get tired of getting three days into an interesting thread only to have the same five or six idiots have a pointless 100-post insult festival with a troll. Unmoderated discussion sites are too often a theft of time.


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: Ed T
Date: 08 Dec 14 - 10:12 AM

Another interesting article on Peron from the year 2000. While interesting, the long reference to Pablo Escobar seems puzzling?



Uncovering The Megalomania Behind Evita Perón 


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: wysiwyg
Date: 08 Dec 14 - 10:24 AM

John P., I favor mutual exploration, over debate. ;-)

~S~


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: olddude
Date: 08 Dec 14 - 10:32 AM

Yeah but what about the cheese


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Dec 14 - 11:15 AM

Three things that simply don't matter:

1. The color of cheese.

2. What Brad and Angelina are doing today.

3. Bonzo3leg's opinion of Eva Peron.


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 08 Dec 14 - 11:26 AM

I too used to come here quite often but I find it a less and less pleasant place of late. There is a coterie or right wing nutters and pompous , self important so called lefties, who seem incapable of reasoned discussion. As I said once before, they are all adept at sawing sawdust. I tend to scroll down threads and if I see certain names, I tend to skip it.
As for "hate" speech..I disagree that calling Eva Peron a whore is hate speech...but it is certainly offensive.


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Dec 14 - 11:30 AM

Hawk, you forgot a couple:

4. YOUR opinion of Eva Peron

5. YOUR opinion of Bonzo3leg


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 08 Dec 14 - 11:57 AM

a while ago a friend advised me - there is no point arguing with an opponent -you will never convince them if you are angry and to an outsider you both look equally crazy. i do try to remember this , not always successfully. but when i see the same names repeatedly appearing after about 20/30 posts to a new thread it is easy to remember.


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Dec 14 - 12:09 PM

I tend to scroll down threads and if I see certain names, I tend to skip it.

Well then, problem's solved, innit? Easy-Peasy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 08 Dec 14 - 12:35 PM

Well, no it isn't.It means to me, and to some others obviously, that there are a handful of people who make this place very unpleasant at times. Many threads start off as interesting discussions then degenerate into name calling, bullying and over the top self righteous indignation. Those who do not wish to have so many threads hijacked by these numbties should not have to avoid Mudcat hust to avoid the nutters.


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: olddude
Date: 08 Dec 14 - 12:44 PM

Oh for #@# sake she is dead long dead isn't life too short to not laugh and let the past be past maybeiit's just me I thought the cheese cheer was funny in a rather rude thread


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Dec 14 - 12:57 PM

Yeah Greg, but they are on every thread.
Eva was a charismatic woman who found a place for herself in South American Politics...a perfect foil to her pragmatic husband.

For any real change to be achieved in politics, we need people like Evita, who may be actors, egoists, or real people with the power to inspire others, spiritual belief in humanity.

Evita had a little of all these things I think, sometimes the best of intentions have unintended consequences.

To call Eva Peron a whore is simply silly and abusive.
Personal abuse here on Mudcat could be wiped out at a stroke, but sometimes I think the abuse is tolerated to keep the more moronic of our members occupied and tied to the threads.
This forum is full of clever people who should be able to debate any issue as adults....unfortunately toleration of personal abuse kills the debate stone dead it, often becomes simply a slanging match, which is what the abusers want in the first place.......they don't have to convince people, just intimidate them! :0)


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Dec 14 - 01:02 PM

Quite so, Greg. Everyone's opinion here (including mine) is most definitely unimportant. But that won't stop us from posting, will it?

(unless we get so bored with the place that we can't be bothered to)


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: wysiwyg
Date: 08 Dec 14 - 03:27 PM

Oh for #@# sake she is dead long dead isn't life too short to not laugh and let the past be past maybeiit's just me I thought the cheese cheer was funny in a rather rude thread

Dan, wherever oppression has been (as Bonzo reflected), expecting folks to get over it on any other timetable than their own, personal path forward is not helpful. It's like telling a widow how long its OK to grieve, or like telling Jews to "get over" the Holocaust. Neither of which I think you would do?

<3

~S~


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: Brian May
Date: 08 Dec 14 - 03:35 PM

Nice to see you haven't missed me - toxicity is alive and well on Mudcat.

The observation that membership is dropping and people don't post (as much) is correct IMHO (not so humble I suppose).

Bye


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Dec 14 - 03:47 PM

I always thing of it as "in my honest opinion". Humble opinions are about as rare as hen's teeth.


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Dec 14 - 04:13 PM

Nice to see you haven't "lost your touch" Hawk. :0)


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: Ed T
Date: 08 Dec 14 - 04:30 PM

""...I thought the cheese cheer was funny in a rather rude thread""

Darn, and I thought you had a "genuine" interest in not-so-genuine cheeses
:(


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Dec 14 - 04:40 PM

For any real change to be achieved in politics, we need people like Evita

and like Pol Pot, Dick Cheney, Henry Kissinger, Augusto Pinochet, Maggie Thatcher, Francisco Franco &c, I suppose, in your book?


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: Ed T
Date: 08 Dec 14 - 04:47 PM

Pol Pot seems to stand out amongst those mentioned?

Would/should he in the same catagory as an attractive and well dressed latin woman-one who came from humble beginnings, whose crimes seems to be limited to being tied up with a sketchy president and promoted workers and womans rights, and issues related to the poor (before she died young)?

I suggest a bit of over-kill.


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: GUEST,
Date: 08 Dec 14 - 04:49 PM

Any suggestion as a cheese for a rude thread - how about Stinking Bishop?


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Dec 14 - 04:56 PM

I suggest a bit of over-kill.

Just attempting to offset the rampant underkill herein expressed, Ed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: Ed T
Date: 08 Dec 14 - 05:38 PM

"Never fall in love with an idea. They're whores: if the one you're with isn't doing the job, there's always, always, always another." 
― Chip Kidd, The Cheese Monkeys


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 08 Dec 14 - 08:29 PM

Eva Peron was loved by the working classes and despised by the privileged classes, who had exploited and subjugated them. The people who called her what Bonzo3Legs and his wife like to call her, came from those classes.

Juan Peron, it should be noted, supported trade unions and aggressively fought to provide social and economic improvement for the working classes, which got him deposed and exiled, after which the wealthy and privileged dismantled and destroyed as much of what he'd done as they could, and reviled both his name and the name of his much beloved and deceased wife.

Peron returned to Argentina and to power (by proxy, anyway) in the early 70's. He died, and his new wife took power and was almost immediately deposed in a coupe d' etat and replaced by a Military Junta.

The Junta were the ones that instigated the "Dirty War" and gathered up tens of thousands of intellectuals, political opponents, and random bystanders and "disappeared" them, leading to the silent protests by the Madres de Plaza de Mayo.

In case some of you are vague about this, neither Peron nor the Peronists were responsible for the Dirty War, this was the work of the Anti-Peronists who formed the Junta. The Junta, not Peron, are the ones who fit in the shoe box with Pinochet and Duarte and such like.


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Dec 14 - 09:46 PM

Stim, do check on what Juan Peron did to the opposition- both left AND right, OK?


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 Dec 14 - 10:43 PM

Whatever the ins and outs of the political situation might have been, could one of the moderators kindly delete or change the offensive, sexist word in the thread title?

Why is it that if a guy spreads it around a bit, he's just being a guy, but if a woman does the same thing, she's a "whore?"

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Dec 14 - 07:45 AM

In my experience it's mostly women calling each other whores. Is Bonzo3legs a woman?

And it doesn't seem to be based on any evidence or have any specific meaning. It's used in the same way a man might call another man a bastard, without actually intending to comment on his lineage. I think maybe whore is just the feminine form for bastard. I never hear a woman called a bastard or a man called a whore (at least not in a disparaging way).

I don't know enough about Eva Peron to join the discussion, but I have to say how much I appreciate Stim's attempt to turn this into an adult forum. Though I admit I joined in back when it was just a lot of silly remarks ridiculing the OP.


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 09 Dec 14 - 08:05 AM

The word whore is often used metaphorically to criticize a woman for using her erotic charms for "selfish" reasons, such as wealth and power. Obviously, Eva Peron was such a case; had she been plain looking she would never have become a political leader. However, moral legitimation of leadership is a rare thing in general, even in democracies. Moreover, Eva Peron did develop political talents and served her husband's party well, to the point that she may actually have invented populism in its modern sense.

Popularity can be a very selfish goal in itself; all the more so, if it is coupled with power and wealth - for the popular politicians, not for their cheerers and voters, who must be content with the feeling of patriotic glamour.


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Dec 14 - 08:18 AM

As none of you are Argentine your arguments carry little merit.


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: Ed T
Date: 09 Dec 14 - 08:36 AM

""The word whore is often used metaphorically to criticize a woman for using her erotic charms for "selfish" reasons, such as wealth and power. ""

Under this odd definition, I suspect there is no scarcity of female whores in the world.

Such is the plight of many unfortunate females- not be born looking plain. Same goes for many of the other females seeking to use whatever advantage they may have to "get in on" the significant share of the global wealth and power that males hold. Oddly, few males would be called whores, for using whatever advantages they may have to reach similar goals (that may seen by some others, as selfish, or not).


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: GUEST,John P
Date: 09 Dec 14 - 10:03 AM

Use of the word "whore" implies a staggering depth of societal sexism. So does "slut". These words represent a concept of sexual inequality that is so completely embedded in our culture that a lot of apparently normal people use them without realizing they are revealing themselves to be sexist. What are our words for guys who act like whores and sluts?

"Sowing his wild oats", with a nod and a wink. Smooth talker, Don Juan, over-sexed. About as negative as it gets is womanizer and skirt chaser. Compare to wanton, fast, loose, easy, pushover, wild. And nymphomaniac, as if being sexually active is a disease, but only if you're a woman.

Maybe it's just jealousy on the part of men, who would love to be able to have sex as often as women can. A centuries-long case of sour grapes? Actually, we seem to have medieval concepts of ownership combined with Victorian shame informing our sexual identities. It's embarrassingly antiquated and unconscious. And completely sexist.


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 09 Dec 14 - 12:05 PM

Many misunderstandings here.

Arguments take their merits from themselves, not from the writer's nationality (or authority by whatever source).

A political "whore" actively exercises erotic charms on powerful persons in order to be promoted. While most powerful persons are heterosexual men, attractive women have best opportunities - but increasingly, men are found in the same role, particularly in homosexual contexts. I do not know a derogatory slang word for these, but I am sure one exists. Maybe "slut" is used for either sex.

Inevitably, attractive successful women and men can become suspects (and thus subject to false rumour and malicious accusation), if a respectively susceptible hierarchy can be alleged.

It seems however that money, family ties, military merits, ethnic and religious affiliations etc. play more important roles in the corruption of power than sex and erotic attraction. The latter makes better drama; the topic of "Evita" can be seen in Shakespeare's tradition.


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: Ed T
Date: 09 Dec 14 - 01:24 PM

I have found that frequently - when a woman attains a position of authority or power in most nations, it is common to attack her "sexuality" to degrade her contbutions by alluding to a sexual route to success.

For males, "sleeping your way to the top" is often seen as a "badge of honour" for the wealthy and powerful. Not so, for women. The exception seems to be for males who, for one reason or another, choose to sleep with the same sex.

Oddly enough, women are frequently in the group that deminishes the positive contribution of successful women-their intelligence, skills, contributions, by attacking their sexual history, their good looks, and their choice of "nice things" that their success enables them to enjoy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 09 Dec 14 - 01:32 PM

To bring this thread back to music, I've often thought that folk songs are somewhat "whorish" (no pejorative intended) in nature; they flit through hundreds if not thousands of people's lives who love them, changing the way they adorn themselves, never committing to any one place or time, entirely ungovernable and available to all.


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Dec 14 - 02:22 PM

The proper word for a male who gives ...or takes sex for money is surely male prostitute or gigolo?

This would equate to prostitute or whore.

There does not appear to be any evidence that Eva was a prostitute. apparently loved dearly by Juan Peron and the majority of the Argentinian people. She had enough money at her disposal without resort to prostitution.

We must be careful before banning words though......political correctness is a dangerous route to take.......1984 is just around the corner and Mr P has form.


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: Ed T
Date: 09 Dec 14 - 02:42 PM

While the tolerence of personal insults seems to be on the upswing-taking a poster to task for the use of one against a Mudcat member, (or another person) seems reasonable.

When the person making the insult does not justify it, when asked to do so-or, does not respond at all, it speaks for the lack of logic behind the insult, and possibly even the intent of the poster.


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Dec 14 - 04:21 PM

What John P said.

Another word for males of easy virtue is "cicisbeo".


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 09 Dec 14 - 05:50 PM

Ed T (09 Dec 14 - 01:24 PM), you're on the wrong track. People in power are likely to be attacked using whatever suspicion seems plausible, sometimes wrongly or without proof. This sad fact does not imply that they really deserve their positions (- even in a democracy; in a dictatorship or absolute monarchy, all positions lack legitimation). Neither does it imply that the criticism is always unjustified.

There is no reason to single out Eva Peron as particularly vicious, in her context of dictatorship and populism, so I do not actively call her a "whore". The facts as I understand them are: Juan Peron was in love with her, she demanded her influential posts from him, which he granted reluctantly. Obviously it was a personal favour rather than a rational decision based on merits. This was commonly seen as "whorish" - to be sure, not the worst of all accusations in an Agentinian context.

The ironic point is that Eva actually developed a political talent that eventually saved the Peronist movement. The benefit for the Argentinian people, however, must be viewed very skeptically.

Males sleeping themselves to the top are much rarer, for obvious reasons which have nothing to do with their collective moral superiority (- nobody, however sexist, would have that idea anyway). The Tsarina Catherine chose her lovers liberally and rewarded them with positions and property, but that is not quite the same.


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw I'm anybody's
Date: 09 Dec 14 - 07:29 PM

My favourite dish of all time is whore's pasta (spaghetti alla puttanesca). The story goes that "working girls" could rustle it up in a flash from store-cupboard ingredients. For two:

Put two glugs of olive oil in your best frying pan. Low heat.

Add eight smashed-up anchovy fillets ( the ones in olive oil, drained). Fry gently until the anchovies are melting down.

Throw in half a teaspoon of crushed chilli flakes. Or more. Ask your wife. Throw in two finely-sliced garlic cloves. Fry gently but don't let the garlic colour. Two minutes.

Now you need some tomatoey stuff here. I hate making my pasta sauces too gloopy with loads of sloppy tinned tomatoes, so I make batches of quite intense tomato sauce with basil and garlic and freeze it. Failing that, half a tin of chopped tomatoes plus a handful of cherry toms plus a spoonful of sundried tomato paste will cut it. Chuck that in, then chuck in a big handful of slightly chopped pitted black olives. Get that lot simmering while you cook your spaghetti in well-salted water.

The spaghetti must NOT go past al dente. Drain it a minute before it's completely done. Throw the spaghetti into the frying pan with the sauce and stir it up. Do not add seasoning as the anchovies and chilli and olives and spaghetti water have already done that for you.

Serve in warmed bowls. Do not add Parmesan cheese. Anathema. Though a sprinkling of chopped fresh parsley is the coup de grace if you have any. If any whore employed by me fed me that first she'd be getting an extra twenty quid. And if she plied me with a glass or three of decent Primitivo as well, she'd have a quiet night.


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw again
Date: 09 Dec 14 - 07:44 PM

I forgot to add: in view if the name of this dish, you should always serve it up wearing stilettos, suspenders, a low-cut dress and garish red lipstick, with a fag hanging out of your gob. Even if you're a man.


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: michaelr
Date: 09 Dec 14 - 07:54 PM

No parmesan??? Sacrilege!


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw Italian chef manqué
Date: 09 Dec 14 - 08:15 PM

Now, Michael, I am a Parmesan fiend, believe me, but you do NOT put Parmesan on prostitute's spaghetti, believe me! No whore ever did it, so I won't either!

You bugger. You've just put me in mind of that chunk of Canossa Dairy Parmesan
I happen to have lying around in the fridge. Damn. I'm just off to cut meself a small(ish) hunk...


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: Ed T
Date: 09 Dec 14 - 08:22 PM

""you're on the wrong track. ""

I dont see it as so. It seems to me that you are off on somewhat of a different tangent, which is ok with me-as this is a broad topic.

Powerful positions in the world are mostly held by males. I suspect many got to these positions by "whoring" themselves to "someone" along the way. While many ignore thisbwith males, when success is reached- not so for many of the successful women.

Women linked to these powerful people (in one way or another) frequently have opportunities to share in some of the power and fame. Each get something out of such relationships, sometimes merely sex and conquest (take the Kennedy example), other times more than that. How they get to such symbiotic relationships is, IMO, mostly their business-as long as it is legal. But, unfortunately, the good work woman frequently do is frequently downplayed by reference to their use of their sexual attributes. This infrequently happens with males.

As to your earlier post, there is a big difference with what comes before the word whore (for example, political whore), versus if it stands alone.

.As to the rest of your message, where precisely did you ever get such intimate details of their relationship, you refer to as "facts". Sources are often useful when making such claims, so folks can ascertain the liklihood of accuracy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw, lightening up
Date: 09 Dec 14 - 08:43 PM

Buggeration. I forgot to add a tablespoon of rinsed capers in with the tomatoes and olives. Sine qua non. How could I have done that! My recipe has also been called slut's spaghetti, slattern's linguine and tart's pasta. Believe me, as long as you're OK with chilli, it's the best grub on the planet. .


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Dec 14 - 08:44 PM

Why hasn't the heading been changed? Far less offensive headings have been adjusted.

How about calling it "Views about cheese and Argentina"?


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw diversifying
Date: 09 Dec 14 - 09:16 PM

As a matter of fact I'm rather keen on Fray Bentos corned beef, but mentioning that might have had me branded a traitor. As for cheese, you'll have to wait. Wednesday's my cheese night. Tomorrow I shall be setting up a blind tasting of Wookey Hole Cave-aged vs two versions of Waitrose West Country Farmhouse cheddar. I fully expect the Wookey to win, but you never know. Mods, don't shut this thread. I need at least 24 more hours to collate the cheese results.


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: Ed T
Date: 09 Dec 14 - 09:26 PM

Steve, why must you impact regularity?


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: michaelr
Date: 09 Dec 14 - 09:27 PM

I love spaghetti puttanesca, Steve, and your recipe looks like a good one, including capers. But tell me, is the prohibition against parmesan traditional, as it is with seafood pastas, or is it your personal preference?

Oh, and back to the thread: beef with chimichurri sauce (I make a good one) is traditional in Argentina, so... how about spaghetti Evita?


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Dec 14 - 11:23 PM

Strange. I just sat down and read the last few posts while my nice bowl of puttanesca is warming, complete with capers. I'm having it with penne pasta and am definitely adding parmesan.


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: GUEST,John P
Date: 09 Dec 14 - 11:25 PM

Oops, that was me above.


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: olddude
Date: 09 Dec 14 - 11:45 PM

Capers say it ain't so.. Yeeeee


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: Ebbie
Date: 10 Dec 14 - 12:36 AM

Trembling jello with embedded capers... Tasty.


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: olddude
Date: 10 Dec 14 - 12:51 AM

Mean Ebbie just mean.. Lol


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 10 Dec 14 - 06:18 AM

Ed T (09 Dec 14 - 08:22 PM), I read a biography long ago when I studied the musical/opera "Evita"; I think it was titled "The Woman Behind the Myth". If you disagree with my list of "facts as I understand them", read my posts as if prefixed "According to a widespread, but not necessarily accurate, perception".

The film emphasizes the "whorish" aspects. Madonna herself claims to be political, but the ideas she proclaimed in interviews were very fuzzy. She is often seen as a reincarnation of Marilyn Monroe, who actually slept with powerful and important men but was not political at all, as far as we know. The real Eva Peron, in contrast, was clever and had an accurate judgment of people's dreams and wishes. Argentina's stability was and is a different matter ...

Voters nowadays are best advised not to follow any propagandist who claims to have simple solutions. Therefore such propagandists should not be glorified in retrospect.


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: Ed T
Date: 10 Dec 14 - 06:32 AM

""According to a widespread, but not necessarily accurate, perception""

Films are mostly noted as entertainement, loose with facts, versus reliable "facts". A unnamed biography is a fairly "sketchy" source to "hitch a wagon to".

It does not seem that widespread to me. It seems akin to "spreading gossip" about someone accused of being a whore" versus putting reliable "facts" forward to build a case. Opinion is ok. When facts are mentioned, I normally expect more.

Anyway, no need to say any more about this.The OP case seems to have taken second seat to pasta and cheese.


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Dec 14 - 06:38 AM

Definitely no Parmesan on puttanesca. Just for once, ignore St Delia, who is no Italian. Chopped fresh parsley sprinkled on is brilliant. As for those capers, have faith. Use the little ones in brine and give them a good rinse. Remember that they are cooking in the sauce for a good ten minutes so you won't be picking up that sharp caper taste anything like as much as if they were just tossed in. They integrate. Same with the anchovies. I buy little tins of them for 90p in Waitrose as they contain just the right amount and I don't end up with a half full pot of them festering away for weeks in the fridge. And it's got to be black pitted olives.


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: Ed T
Date: 10 Dec 14 - 06:49 AM

Since tgs OP failed to reveal its viscosity, here is some griunded information on the Phantom OP to consider:

viscosity of cheeses 


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 10 Dec 14 - 03:47 PM

You have largely ignored his dark side, such as his regime's welcoming of Nazi war criminals after World War II and the right-wing death squads that sprung up during his final term. Critics call him a demagogue who stifled freedoms and crushed dissent while admiring European fascists such as Benito Mussolini of Italy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Dec 14 - 06:57 PM

Yes, Bonzo, and let's not forget the role of soon-to-be-sainted PiusXII in the complicity that allowed those war criminals to escape. Now back to my soffritto.


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: Ed T
Date: 10 Dec 14 - 07:59 PM

""You have largely ignored his dark side""

But, you opened a thread and offered little meaningful content beyond calling his wife a whore-IMO, a sexist low blow with littlevto back it up- likely a poor showing in anyones estimation.

If you have a case, state it- best with well sourced material-if not you could possibly be discounted as a disgruntled latino "bourgeois", or possibly a kook. It's a put up or ".... up" kinda world, and most with little patience for thread snipers, lurkers and chirping baby chicks.


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Dec 14 - 08:23 PM

Er, whilst not wishing to defend the somewhat blunt thread title, I reckon that this woman's life has been very much over-romanticated, far more than she deserved. That hardly justifies an attack on her sexual integrity, of course, but she was no saint, and her hubby was definitely even less so. A pity that the baby's gone out with the bathwater, but there is still a debate to be had. Steve ducks...


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: Ed T
Date: 10 Dec 14 - 08:31 PM

"still a debate to be had" ...with little well-sourced information to base one on.
Now, that's a challenge, one well beyond sauces, pasta and buniony old cheeses;)


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Dec 14 - 08:36 PM

Ed, five or ten minutes with Google will give you all the "well sourced information" you need to realize that Mr & Mrs Peron were, at bottom, pretty miserable individuals.


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Dec 14 - 08:40 PM

Correct, Greg, you beat me to it. I just wish Bonzo had chosen his thread title a bit more carefully. It might have made a good conversation.


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Dec 14 - 08:45 PM

Can't argue with that, Steve.


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: Ed T
Date: 10 Dec 14 - 08:56 PM

""Ed, five or ten minutes with Google will give you all the "well sourced information" you need to realize that Mr & Mrs Peron were, at bottom, pretty miserable individuals.""

So, why would someone who opened a thread not do a bit of work and oresent jus? I have no desire to research a case that is not mine to make.

Do a google search and you can dredge up nasty accusations about most people in powerful positions, as you can find the opposing perspectives.

All make a good potential debate-but, kinda like one hand clapping. Add to that is a "whores breakfast" of an OP .


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Dec 14 - 09:09 PM

Ed, it's actually quite hard to google and dredge up nasty accusations about her. I tried it (quite an education, actually). But you can read between the lines, and, in her case, there are plenty of lines to read between. But she was a very young woman when she died and she quite possibly didn't have much grip on the realities of ordinary life. Swept up in her false little world, as it were. All googlable, and wot a shame this thread got off to such a negative start. The Perons are well worth discussing. Good point about those Nazi war criminals too.


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Dec 14 - 09:20 PM

Of course at that time were were still plenty of people subsequently identified as Nazi War Criminals doing very nicely back in both Germanies, and active collaborators in respectable political positions in other countries, such as France.


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: Ed T
Date: 10 Dec 14 - 09:22 PM

I prefer not "read between the lines" for reliable evidence, Steve. I am surprised that with your science background you would rely on such sketchy persuits.

"The Perons are well worth discussing."

Possibly so, with her husband, whose influential life went far beyond her short political one. I would hardly blame her for his many inperfections and questionable political persuits including some well-reported sexual ones-there no readings of "blank spaces"is needed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Dec 14 - 05:10 AM

You're a luvly feller an' all that, Ed, but don't misrepresent what I said. Reading between the lines does not mean deliberately searching for smutty rumours or quarter-truths. It means looking intelligently through and beyond the romanticisation and near-idolisation visited on the Perons from some quarters down the decades. They were hardly paragons.


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Dec 14 - 05:43 AM

Where has any one said that the Perons were "paragons of virtue"?


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Dec 14 - 06:08 AM

Actually a huge number of people supported Fascism in the late 20's and early 30's.
Mosely, after WW1, in which he behaved extremely courageously, crossed the floor and sat with Labour as and Independent and soon joined MacDonald's Labour cabinet.

The horrors of German Fascism were unknown at the time.

In the sixties I worked with a Communist ex railway driver, who told me stories of battles fought with the "blackshirts" in the East End of London during the 30's......The Fascists had much public support
my friend reckoned 50/50..... The Communist fighters were much in the minority, but as public opinion changed in the lead up to war with Germany, they prevailed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: Ed T
Date: 11 Dec 14 - 07:40 AM

"It means looking intelligently through and beyond the romanticisation and near-idolisation visited on the Perons from some quarters down the decades. They were hardly paragons."

Well, as tempting as it may be, it's more fruitful, but less entertaining, to seek grounded evidence of each individual and their symbiotic relationship, versus less-grounded gossip, slanted viewpoints, or slurs. That is where a high standard of evidence exists..

I recall few Argentinian , or latin American paragons-most seem to have flaws. But, a few were linked with positive change for their countrymen, often in a challenging governing climate. Though not free of flaws, and facing significant opposition, Eva made a few changes in her short life, while enjoying public exposure and lifes rewards. A controversial figure, she is remembered both passionately and less so, by other folks- like the OP poster.

For whatever reason, IMO, she made the right choice championing the poor and promoting women's rights- versus the powerful wealthy and military elites. You pay a price for doing that in many countries. If she screwed every guy, or gal,in the country while doing that seems unimportant to me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: Ed T
Date: 11 Dec 14 - 07:49 AM

One of the benefits if discussion, it encourages folks to seek information normally would not pursued. The site below leads to a fair amount of information on the Perons, from books, media etc. But, you have to fish around the site.


Peron 


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 11 Dec 14 - 08:09 AM

I wrote that my source was a biography, not the musical or the film based on it. Balanced judgment is a virtue for historians, not for dramatists. If Shakespeare had written reinactment scripts, he would have been a better historian, but a worse Shakespeare. Now, Tim Rice is definitely not a Shakespeare, but did a reasonable job. Lloyd Webber's contribution is quite interesting in many passages, but if he had really decided to become a serious opera composer, he would have ceased to be Lloyd Webber.


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: Ed T
Date: 11 Dec 14 - 08:21 AM

Whatever, Grishka.


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: Ed T
Date: 11 Dec 14 - 08:41 AM

""The horrors of German Fascism were unknown at the time.""
Yes, many powerful folks "flirted" with those who eventually turned out to be facists, such as in Britain.

Mr. Peron seems to have established a fascination with Mussolin in the early days when he was posted to Italy. Argentina seemed to remain relatively neutral in early WW2, benefiting financially from trade with all sides (possibly a bit like the US of A). There is significant conjecture where his war sympathies resided, as well as what level of post-war cooperation existed with escaping german leaders. But, this also exists with some neighbor countries. Like many nations, Argentina had an early migration-in of people from Germany.

Long after Eva's death, after long exile, Peron returned and obtained some power (to some degree based on the popularity Eva garnered many years before) -but, there is uncertainity if he was actually lucid, (or, if he ever was totally so) as others seemed to be calling the governing shots. It was during this period that the CIA seemed to have cold-war interest in the Peron government, as the "dirty war" blossomed. The CIA was established in 1947- a year after Peron first took power.


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Dec 14 - 09:11 AM

I prefer not "read between the lines" for reliable evidence, Steve.

You apparently prefer not to read at all, Ed, if you can't bother to take 5 minutes educate yourself.

IMO, she made the right choice

And, since you've admitted you haven't done any research, that "opinion" is worth bugger-all.


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: Ed T
Date: 11 Dec 14 - 09:26 AM

""You apparently prefer not to read at all, Ed, if you can't bother to take 5 minutes educate yourself.""

Now where ever did you ever get such an odd, premature, if not abrasive notion Greg F? Nothing of the like is so apparent at all.

If you more closely read a few posts,versus shooting off such drivel, you would see that you are merely "shooting speculative blanks" versus posting reliable information on what others read- where you are not present.


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Dec 14 - 11:11 AM

Now where ever did you ever get such an odd, premature, if not abrasive notion Greg F.

No need to be abusive, Ed - I got it from several of your statements, e.g." I have no desire to research a case that is not mine to make" & etc.

Besides, you're hardly alone; there are many people who expect to be spoon-fed information so that they don't have to expend any effort themselves.


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: Ed T
Date: 11 Dec 14 - 11:34 AM

You seem to be the first to resort to abusive comments, versus actual content Greg.

It seems like you also "read between the lines" greg. Nowhere did I state I havent done a bit of reasearch on the topic-you did. In response to your "somewhat-prickly" comment in my direction, I merelyvresponded that I don't plan to do the research for anyone too lazy to back up a case or a slur- op posted.


Rather than take a "dog in the manger" approach, (making motherhood statements, that google searches can reveal information), I shared links to, IMO, good information sources I found. As a courtesy, and to stimuate informed discussion, if you have that interest-in discussion, (and, I am unconvinced you do) you could do the same, versus skimming over posts to shoot off meagre-level shots.


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Dec 14 - 12:17 PM

I merely vresponded that I don't plan to do the research for anyone too lazy to back up a case

Rather like yourself? I'm done with this.


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: Ed T
Date: 11 Dec 14 - 02:10 PM

A fair assessment. I never saw a purpose in the thread- though I did learn something about a topic early on, that I knew little about before, by looking stuff up for myself.

When the absentee op poster made a claim and failed to explain it or back it up when asked - there is no credibility to the claim (which is not the same as saying it does not have some possible validily).

As Steve indicated, there was potential for an interesting dialogue on a side issue, the Peron years, it never evolved as a focused discussion.


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Dec 14 - 07:55 PM

"Research" is a word that gets used very loosely these days. It can mean genuinely exploring a topic in depth, which takes a lot of time and effort. Or it can mean googling Wikipedia and a few other pages on the Internet, some of which are a lot more reliable than others, and maybe reading the odd book.

Noone can be genuine experts on more than a relatively few things. When we express opinions about the others we should always recognise that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: Ed T
Date: 11 Dec 14 - 08:32 PM

MOH

That is why I normally ask where people have gotten their information, to determine how solid statements are grounded to something meaningful.I have no problems with opinions, I just like to know this so I have some way to guage the reliability of what is being expressed.

What constitutes an expert is another good question. We are all familar with the court system and the process courts go through to recognize someone as an "expert" witness. Then we see a bunch of experts on either sides giving completely different expert testimony.

Just because someone is consudered an expert does not exclude them from error, in judgement, opinion or otherwise. However, it does increase the liklihood that they have tied their statements and opnions to something well grounded.


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 12 Dec 14 - 02:46 AM

No book can be as reliable as people who have lived in Argentina at the time. We are meeting a very well informed Argentine this weekend, I'll see what her view on the subject are. I know what she thinks of the present clown - Cristina Kirshner!


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 12 Dec 14 - 03:12 AM

......that is to say - views on the subject. Oh rumour has it that Kirshner had a fling with Chavez!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Dec 14 - 08:43 PM

There are millions of people in Argentina. That's millions of points of views, and all of them the "right" point of view for the person holding them.

No doubt there are a lot of people who would see it the way bonzo does. And a lot who would disagree very strongly.

The indications seem to be that there are more of the latter than the former. That doesn't mean they are right, numbers never settle the argument when it comes to such matters. But they shouldn't be ignored either.


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 13 Dec 14 - 05:25 AM

I agree McGrath, very well put!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 14 Dec 14 - 01:22 AM

It seemed to me that he was disagreeing with what you said, Bonzo3Legs.


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: GUEST,Blandiver (Astray)
Date: 14 Dec 14 - 03:33 AM

Three things that simply don't matter: 1. The color of cheese.

Not sure how it is across the pond, LH, but to we vicious old men with beards who nurse ancient grudges over pints of ale in the UK, the colour of cheese is as serious an issue as the provenance of our folk songs:

How 17th Century Fraud Gave Rise To Bright Orange Cheese


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: Musket
Date: 14 Dec 14 - 03:55 AM

And we don't buy it in spray cans either..


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: Ed T
Date: 14 Dec 14 - 07:29 AM

The old bearded men are likely just "pissed" because the divide is bigger than a mere "pond", as (unlike a pond) it is a huge, deep, cold, and very salty, ocean.


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 14 Dec 14 - 07:39 AM

And it's generally thought that christina kirshner was shagging chavez!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: Ed T
Date: 14 Dec 14 - 07:48 AM

""And it's generally thought that christina kirshner was shagging chavez!!""

And, why would that matter, if it were so? Beyond being titillating to tabloid-type newspaper readers, that is.


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 14 Dec 14 - 11:59 AM

Eva Peron was feted in Spain, kissed the ring of Pope Pius XII at the Vatican and hobnobbed with the rich-and-famous in the mountains of Switzerland.

Eva Peron, known as "Evita" by her adoring followers, was superficially on a trip to strengthen diplomatic, business and cultural ties between Argentina and important leaders of Europe.

But there was a parallel mission behind the high-profile trip, one that has contributed to a half century of violent extremism in Latin America.

According to records now emerging from Swiss archives and the investigations of Nazi hunters, an unpublicized side of Evita's world tour was coordinating the network for helping Nazis relocate in Argentina.

This new evidence of Evita's cozy ties with prominent Nazis corroborates the long-held suspicion that she and her husband, Gen. Juan Peron, laid the groundwork for a bloody resurgence of fascism across Latin America in the 1970s and '80s.


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: Ed T
Date: 14 Dec 14 - 12:22 PM

""According to records now emerging from Swiss archives""

Are you able to provide more source information for the above claim, for folks to view it independently? Since you earlier referred to the woman as a "whore" , it is hard see your claims alone as an unbiased source.


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Dec 14 - 12:24 PM

Blandiver - My goodness! Those are shocking revelations. I shall have to reconsider my statement about the color of cheese not mattering...


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: Ed T
Date: 14 Dec 14 - 12:34 PM

Interesting how many internet stories are rife on the internet about new documents linking Argentina, and a few other neighbours with Hitler and his team - oddly, they never seem to become public for objective assessment (nudge, nudge, wink, wink). Yes, they are somewhat like runny cheese.

Here's one with a quick Google search:

Hitler May Still be Alive, and in Argentina!

""The "official story" says that Adolf Hitler died by a self-inflicted gunshot to the head. For decades, rumors swirled throughout Argentina that Hitler had in fact survived the bunker and escaped to South America's second largest country where he lived until 1962. Documents recently released by the Federal Bureau of Investigation in Washington DC are giving some credence to the rumors. While no concrete evidence exists to support either the death-by-suicide or life-in-Argentina theories, the weight of the evidence is shifting""


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 14 Dec 14 - 12:58 PM

Ed T - get a life! Go to Argentina and see for yourself, I have 7 times, so I think I know just a tiny bit what I am talking about!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: Ed T
Date: 14 Dec 14 - 01:16 PM

I asked for sources, and, rather than give them (if, in fact, you have them), you respond curtly.

As if going to Argentina would reveal the truth about "urban legands" versus verifiable information on aspects of 70 year old WW2 history. Just because someone travelled to Argentina-does not make everything they find on the internet any more accurate?


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 14 Dec 14 - 01:35 PM

I don't do sources.


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: Ed T
Date: 14 Dec 14 - 01:50 PM

Right!

That gives me complete trust in what you post is a tad more reliable than total bunk.

Seems like (IMO) you need to "get a life".

BTW, since I travelled to Venezuela five times, under your odd expert criteria, that would make me one on Chavez, Carlos the Jackal, and Simon Bolivar (including who they bedded). Strange as it may seem, I make no such claim (and provide no related sources).


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 14 Dec 14 - 02:15 PM

Very good, have a nice evening.


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: Ed T
Date: 14 Dec 14 - 02:17 PM

"chacun a son gout"

;)


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Dec 14 - 02:28 PM

The saintly Pius XII (he of expedient dealings with Musso), and national superheroes the Perons, all helped to make it easier for Nazis war criminals in their attempts to escape justice. They may well all have been people of their times, but, no excuses, these dealings were still very murky. Not nice.


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: Ed T
Date: 14 Dec 14 - 02:34 PM

So, who did he sleep with Steve?
:)


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Dec 14 - 02:36 PM

Sorry, what was the question again, Ed?


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: Ed T
Date: 14 Dec 14 - 03:00 PM

""You gotta be a magician to keep a kid's attention more'n two minutes nowadays. ""
Foghorn Leghorn


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: GUEST,#
Date: 14 Dec 14 - 04:07 PM

https://consortiumnews.com/2013/03/16/evita-the-swiss-and-the-nazis/

Not all views are as laudatory as some.


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 14 Dec 14 - 04:15 PM

And don't forget - racecar is 'racecar' backwards!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: Ed T
Date: 14 Dec 14 - 07:22 PM

And don't forget - racecar is 'racecar' backwards!!!

Problem is it's two words. Kinda "fs up" the example?
;)

How about coche de carreras, does it work with that one too?


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Dec 14 - 07:35 PM

Why was my post deleted, mods? I used the word Nazi but I didn't call anybody here a Nazi, did I?


Nope. Didn't happen. Your post never made it to the site. It's best to select the entire post and do ^C and wait to see if it went through. If not, open the thread again and use ^V to paste into the text box and try again. --mudelf


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: Don Firth
Date: 14 Dec 14 - 07:39 PM

"Hitler May Still be Alive, and in Argentina!"

If so, he'd be 125 years old....

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: Ed T
Date: 14 Dec 14 - 07:41 PM

""If so, he'd be 125 years old....""

He watched what he ate, and exercised regularly?


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Dec 14 - 07:41 PM

I'm still puzzled why the thread title hasn't been changed.

I suspect that if someone started a series of threads with a similar title about - well I won't suggest names. But pretty well regardless of name I am pretty sure they would get changed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: Ed T
Date: 14 Dec 14 - 07:51 PM

""I'm still puzzled why the thread title hasn't been changed.""

Agreed- it was suggested early on, with no change.

As Steve alluded to earlier, too bad it remained, as it likely limited interest (and set the tone) to debate (learn) potentially interesting Peron era-related topics.


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Dec 14 - 08:38 PM

Actually the main effect was to promote posts about cheese.


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: GUEST,John P
Date: 16 Dec 14 - 12:15 AM

I've visited England three times. I even got married there. I clearly know everything there is to know about the country. All you UK folks don't hold a candle to me when it comes to knowing about England. I even know what you think. It should be obvious that I know what I'm talking about since I've been in England so often and my ex-wife used to live there. Proof? Piffle! Opinions? I don't have them -- everything I think of is the truth.


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Subject: RE: BS: Evita Peron - whore
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 20 Dec 14 - 11:32 AM

Guest John P - Sos un rey !


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