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No man's land protest

DigiTrad:
NO MAN'S LAND
NO MAN'S LAND (3)
NOBODY'S MOGGY'S LAND (No Moggy's Land)
WILLIE MCBRIDE'S REPLY


Related threads:
Lyr Req: The green fields of France (33)
Lyr Req: Green fields of france PARODY (27)
No Man's Land/willie McBride-rap version? (89)
Lyr Req: No Man's Land (Eric Bogle) (46)
Lyr Req: Willie MacBride's Answer to Finbar Furey (11)
Greenfields of France parody... (34)
Alternative lyrics to 'Willie McBride -Flower (7)
Green Fields of France (48)
Lyr Req: Green Fields of France Parody (14)
Lyr/Chords Req: Green Fields of France (Engli (26)
Lyr/Chords Req: No Man's Land (15)
Lyr Req: Parody on Green Fields of France (26)
Lyr Req: Willy Mc Bride (41)
Lyr Req: Willie McBride (Parody) (6)
(origins) Green Fields of France (10)
Lyr Req: Green Fields of France^^^ (22)
Lyr Req: Willie Mc Bride's OTHER reply (2)
Lyr/Chords Req: green fields of france (4)
Lyr Req: no man's land parody (3)
Lyr Add: Willie McBride parody - new chorus (5)
Lyr Add: Not Willie McBride (7)
Lyr Add: The Green Fields of France (12)
Lyr Req: Parody of Willie McBride (21)
Lyr Req: Parody of Green Fields of France (5)
Lyr Req: Willie McBride / No Man's Land (5) (closed)
Chords for The Green Fields of France/No Mans (3)


GUEST,Brian Grayson 10 Apr 15 - 09:36 AM
Musket 15 Nov 14 - 04:40 PM
Bonzo3legs 15 Nov 14 - 04:16 PM
GUEST,punkfolkrocker 15 Nov 14 - 02:58 PM
Jim Carroll 15 Nov 14 - 02:35 PM
GUEST,punkfolkrocker 15 Nov 14 - 02:32 PM
Jim Carroll 15 Nov 14 - 02:16 PM
GUEST,punkfolkrocker 15 Nov 14 - 12:50 PM
Bonzo3legs 15 Nov 14 - 11:50 AM
GUEST,Troubadour 15 Nov 14 - 11:12 AM
Bonzo3legs 15 Nov 14 - 10:43 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Nov 14 - 09:54 AM
GUEST,Fred McCormick 15 Nov 14 - 07:29 AM
Bonzo3legs 15 Nov 14 - 06:25 AM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Nov 14 - 04:30 AM
Musket 15 Nov 14 - 03:01 AM
Elmore 14 Nov 14 - 10:45 PM
GUEST,Rahere 14 Nov 14 - 06:42 PM
Dave MacKenzie 14 Nov 14 - 04:41 PM
GUEST,punkfolkrocker 14 Nov 14 - 03:27 PM
GUEST,Rahere 14 Nov 14 - 03:15 PM
GUEST,punkfolkrocker 14 Nov 14 - 02:24 PM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Nov 14 - 12:30 PM
Musket 14 Nov 14 - 11:48 AM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Nov 14 - 11:07 AM
Musket 14 Nov 14 - 09:58 AM
Acorn4 14 Nov 14 - 09:55 AM
GUEST 14 Nov 14 - 09:09 AM
Teribus 14 Nov 14 - 09:01 AM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Nov 14 - 08:41 AM
GUEST,Raggytash 14 Nov 14 - 08:22 AM
Teribus 14 Nov 14 - 07:45 AM
Musket 14 Nov 14 - 07:10 AM
GUEST,Raggytash 14 Nov 14 - 06:12 AM
GUEST,Sol 14 Nov 14 - 05:19 AM
Steve Gardham 14 Nov 14 - 04:47 AM
GUEST,Rahere 13 Nov 14 - 10:01 PM
GUEST,Sol 13 Nov 14 - 07:42 PM
Teribus 12 Nov 14 - 09:10 AM
Teribus 12 Nov 14 - 09:06 AM
GUEST,Desi C 12 Nov 14 - 09:00 AM
Musket 12 Nov 14 - 08:47 AM
Musket 12 Nov 14 - 08:26 AM
Teribus 12 Nov 14 - 08:16 AM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Nov 14 - 08:10 AM
Teribus 12 Nov 14 - 08:05 AM
GUEST,Allan Conn 12 Nov 14 - 07:44 AM
Musket 12 Nov 14 - 07:13 AM
Teribus 12 Nov 14 - 06:51 AM
Teribus 12 Nov 14 - 06:03 AM
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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Brian Grayson
Date: 10 Apr 15 - 09:36 AM

Off on a different tack entirely..

If anyone knows how to contact Edthefolkie, I'd love to get hold of a copy/pic of his poster from the 1974 Enterprise Folk Club - I was one of the residents then with Don (he was Don then...) Bonito. Ta muchly!

Brian Grayson
beegee1921@hotmail.com


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Musket
Date: 15 Nov 14 - 04:40 PM

Music is entertainment. That said, it can be used to push a point. Bogle pushed his point and it was abused by commercial interests.

Get over it.

If you have any vitriol, save it for those who damn the dead by claiming they were well led and died for a good cause.

They are the sick ones here, not a soul singer and rock guitarist.


The argument is here -mod


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 15 Nov 14 - 04:16 PM

It amazes me that you all have nothing better to do than whinge over a record!!!


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Nov 14 - 02:58 PM

Jim - that's a very interesting point you raise.. the context...

See, from my point of view, if I wanted to get angry and focus my underlying resentments..

I'd be more inclined to attack the the overwhelming religious and royal aspects
of that commemoration service / variety show...


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Nov 14 - 02:35 PM

"To me, it's just a performance.. just a fleeting transient soon to be forgotten performance.."
Not where and wy it took place, it wasn't
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Nov 14 - 02:32 PM

Jim - that's where I can't agree...

To me, it's just a performance.. just a fleeting transient soon to be forgotten performance..

"I find the performance insulting and denigrating towards those who fought in W.W.1"

Seriously ?, how can a bunch of ill advised pop performers really have any significant bearing
on the reality of how we respect and mourn any lives wasted in war...???


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Nov 14 - 02:16 PM

"Who is Bob Banks, of Derbyshire, anyone know ?"
Does it matter - does everybody have to be a superstar to recognise anodyne crap?
I find the performance insulting and denigrating towards those who fought in W.W.1 and I'd sign without asking for an I.D.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Nov 14 - 12:50 PM

Right from the start I was under the error of thinking this petition originated directly from STW coalition HQ.
A few days ago I went back to stopwar.org and re- read more carefully
and then realised the petition was actually set up by just one bloke,
Bob Banks, of Derbyshire.

Stopwar.org is a seriously meaningful pressure group with heavy weight credentials.
I haven't a clue who Bob from Derbyshire is...

"Supporters of the Coalition, whether organisations or individuals, will of course be free to develop their own analyses and organise their own actions.
But there will be many important occasions when united initiatives around broad stop the war slogans
can mobilise the greatest numbers.
"

Personally, I'm still not convinced of the worth of this petition.
At further risk of sticking my neck out as an irritating voice of dissent.....

Call me overcautious, call me cynical, call me a ***,
call me whatever you like...

But awkward questions really do need to be asked.....


Who is Bob Banks, of Derbyshire, anyone know ?

What are his real motives and objectives for this petition ?

What actually does he hope to achieve ?

What's in it for him ?


.. and please, let's not get into any petulant "If you're not with us you're against us"
" if you don't support this petition you must be a pro war nationalist militarist...etc..." nonsense.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 15 Nov 14 - 11:50 AM

Just listened to the Joss Stone/Jeff Beck record again - 3 times actually, really enjoyed it!!!


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 15 Nov 14 - 11:12 AM

"Is one's priority to be with taste or with profit for good cause? Not a simple one to answer, it seems to me."

Is moral and ethical principle to be ignored while making that decision MtheGM?


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 15 Nov 14 - 10:43 AM

Easyjet passengers stranded on an Alicante runway!!!!!

It happens!!


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Nov 14 - 09:54 AM

"The war was necessary and the army was well led.
I am sure that they know better than anyone on here."
Sir Max hastings - the "historian" you have based your case on certainly seems to
Jim Carroll

SPECTATOR
Why does Max Hastings have such a hatred for the British military?
David Crane is taken aback by the particular contempt Max Hastings appears to reserve for the British at the outbreak of the first world war
Catastrophe: Europe Goes to War, 1914 Max Hastings
Collins, pp.628, £30, ISBN: 9780307597052
One of the great problems for any historian writing of 1914 and the slide into conflict is that everyone knows the causes of the first world war and those of us who don't still imagine that we do. It is clear that no historian can simply ignore the causes and get straight down to the fighting, but with the best will in the world it is hard not to feel like some poor Easyjet passenger, stranded on a Gatwick runway and sadly watching the precious take-off slot slipping further into the distance while the cabin crew go though the familiar old pre-flight safety instructions that they know perfectly well nobody is listening to.
Serbian ambition, the internal incoherence of the Hapsburg empire, the Kaiser, Alsace-Lorraine , the 'first blank cheque', the 'second blank cheque,' Pan-Slavism, Ulster, mobilisation, uncertainty over Britain's intentions, fear of decadence, fear of Russia, fear of socialism — none of them can be any more dodged than can the emergency doors or the oxygen mask. But when half the world seems to be writing about what happened in 1914, or should have happened and didn't, it is an uphill struggle to make it fresh or interesting. It is immensely to Max Hastings's credit that he manages to dispose of it all as economically as he does; but this huge, compelling, argumentative bully of a book only really hits its stride when the fighting starts, and the full catastrophe that the 'absurdly amateurish' 19-year-old Gavrilo Princip unleashed with the assassination of the unloved and unlovable Archduke Franz Ferdinand begins to unfold.
'A bullet does not go precisely where one wishes,' was how an apologetic Princip explained away the unintended murder of Franz Ferdinand's morganatic wife, Sophie; but Hastings will have no truck with the idea that a chapter of accidents brought about the war, or with any liberal, guilt-ridden guff about equal moral and political responsibility of the warring belligerents. There is no reason to think that Germany was gunning for war when it gave Austria their 'blank cheque' for the extermination of Serbia, but they were certainly prepared to live with the consequences in the firm belief that they were in a stronger position to win any war against Russia and France in 1914 than they would be in the years ahead.
One of the great strengths of Catastrophe is the space and energy it gives to the less familiar theatres and aspects of the conflict — the barbarism of Austria's Serbia campaign, the chaos of Galicia, East Prussia and Tannenberg, the Home fronts, the North Sea, German 'beastliness' — but like the fortunes of the war itself, the book stands or falls on the Western Front. From the start the Germans had gambled on the rapid and total defeat of France before turning their full attention to the east, and by the time they realised that no number of victories over Russian armies was going to win them the war, they were inextricably mired in the bitter stalemate in France and Belgium to which the strategic fantasies of Schlieffen and his disciples had doomed them.
It is the story of the Germans' bid for a quick and crushing victory in the west, told with an equal richness of detail and sure narrative sweep, that is at the core of Catastrophe, and no story better deserves the name. In the popular imagination the first world war is always going to be associated with the miseries of trench warfare; but the trenches were the consequences of this first fluid phase of the war, a place of troglodytic sanctuary from a war of open movement in which 19th-century strategies and armies led into battle by mounted officers and bands playing came up against modern technology.
Eighteen thousand French and German dead in the Ardennes on 23 and 24 August alone, 329,000 French dead by the end of the year, 800,000 German dead or wounded in the same period, 150,000 Austrian, 16,000 British, more than half of Samsonov's 230,000 Russians, killed, wounded or captured at Tannenberg in the last week of August — it is impossible, or at least it ought to be impossible, to write about the first world war without a sense of moral indignation at the waste and futility and stupidity of its leaders. But Max Hastings saves his particular animus for Britain and her army. There are precious few generals on either side of the war who escape his wrath, but if he is rightly contemptuous of Moltke and dismissive of his army commanders, the British seem to inspire something approaching a hatred — it is the only word to convey the level of hostility — that adds a startlingly bitter edge to this formidably impressive book.
Hastings hates British complacency about her military past, he hates British chauvinism, he hates Britain's patronising attitudes towards her allies, he hates Britain's love of turning retreats — Corunna, Dunkirk, Mons — into moral victories, he hates her continuing penchant for 'gesture politics', and he is damned sure that he is going to leave no treasured national myth unexploded. For the officers who only arrived in France in 1915 there already seemed something heroic about the men of the BEF; but in Hastings's hands even the old saw of lions led by donkeys is turned on its head, with the VCs they win 'soft' VCs, the battles they fight 'little battles' and even Mons — the jewel in the Old Contemptibles' crown — little more than a sideshow of a sideshow.
'Dodgy' battalions in the Ypres Salient, wholesale abandonment of weapons and positions, pusillanimous leadership, a reluctant showing at the Marne, a navy that couldn't fire, politicians who knew nothing of war, it all makes for chastening reading. Anyone travelling down the 900-odd Commonwealth War Graves Commission cemeteries that mark the line of the old Western Front from Ypres to the Aisne might be forgiven for thinking otherwise, but Britain no more won the first world war by herself than it did Waterloo and here is chapter and verse. Whatever happened later, it was the French who saved France in 1914 and saved it in spite of everything our own Sir John French could do to scupper the alliance, and with the centenary looming it is important to be reminded of that. 'No part of the Great War compares in interest with its opening', wrote Churchill, and Hastings does full justice to its appalling drama. He is, unashamedly — thankfully — a historian in the Barbara Tuchman tradition and Catastrophe is rich in unexplored sources from every side of the conflict and every theatre of the war. He is wise, too, to end the book where he does, with the German defeat at Ypres. I, for one, could not take much more and — more to the point — I'm not sure the author could either. If the performance of the old army that died at the First Ypres can reduce him to such frustration, God knows what, the 2nd and 3rd Ypres, Loos, Gallipoli, Kut and the Somme might do.
It is going to be a long five years of grim anniversaries, so triumphalists might want to pencil in 8 August 2018 — Ludendorff's 'black day of the German army' — for the next centenary we can really look forward to.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 15 Nov 14 - 07:29 AM

Signers of the petition have been sent an update from Bob Banks, who initiated it. It concerns a response from the British Legion. In the ordinary run of things I would have posted a link to what he says, but for some reason it won't work.

Therefore I've posted his entire message below.

Talk about banging your head against a brick wall!

---------------------------------------------------------------------
British Legion petition reaches 5000: British Legion response

Bob Banks

Derbyshire, United Kingdom

14 Nov 2014 — We now have more than 5,000 signatures: thank you so much for taking the time for sign. Reading the hundreds of comments really encourages me, that such a wide range of people: ex-Army officers, British Legion members, peace campaigners, pacifists, musicians, non-musicians, young and old, have come together on this. We may differ on many things but we share an abhorrence of war, and have come together, determined to get this message out.

Less encouraging has been the response of the British Legion. In response to press coverage, they chose to put out a statement saying that the petition is based on "a selective and misleading interpretation of a letter written by Eric Bogle to fRoots music magazine. When read in its entirety, [this letter] confirms that the Legion legitimately obtained rights to … Joss Stone's version of the song, that she and Jeff Beck were entitled to re-arrange it, and that their version does not 'glorify' war."

This statement, claiming that the petition was based on Eric Bogle's letter, is simply untrue: Eric Bogle had not even sent his letter when I published the petition. The petition simply does not suggest that the Legion didn't have "rights" to record or "re-arrange" the song. (In fact, legally, they don't need to obtain rights, as long as they pay the royalties.) And nowhere does it say that their version "glorifies" war.

When I phoned the British Legion to explain this, their spokesperson refused to accept it, repeated his assertion that our petition is "incorrect", insisted that we are a small minority, and that the petition is a "distraction". (From the "important" business of selling the single.) I would have asked how ending war can be seen as a "distraction". Isn't it one of the most important challenges facing our planet, and wouldn't most actual members of the armed forces, and those who have lost loved ones in war, feel this more than anyone? But unfortunately he put the phone down before I could question this.

On a more positive note, June Tabor (whose recording of the song is so moving) has said: "Thank-you for drawing my attention to this travesty. It goes nicely with the ceramic poppies. I have of course signed the petition. Whatever next - re-writing Wilfred Owen with a happy ending?"

I am still awaiting a response from Chris Simpkins, Director General of the British Legion, to whom the petition is addressed. I will continue to chase this up, and send out one final message, passing this on. In the meantime, of course, do feel free to take this forward in any way you wish.

Thanks and best wishes,

Bob
----------------------------------------------------------------------

BTW. I note that the BL has landed itself in another fine mess; collaborating with Sainsburys over their Christmas ad. It exploits the 1914 Christmas truce, on one of the few occasions when a grain of sanity crept into the ranks of the soldiers on both sides.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 15 Nov 14 - 06:25 AM

No Mans Land - Wembley!

Another performnce from Joss Stone & Jeff Beck - No Mans Land is at about 7 minutes!!


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Nov 14 - 04:30 AM

The historians are clear and unanimous.
The war was necessary and the army was well led.
I am sure that they know better than anyone on here.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Musket
Date: 15 Nov 14 - 03:01 AM

We may be different people but tend to be consistent in our ripping the piss out of absurdity and inflated egos.

Or put another way, if we polled the idea, three votes to say carnage and irresponsible poor leadership is supported by historical facts and eye witness accounts.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Elmore
Date: 14 Nov 14 - 10:45 PM

Although there are posts in this thread with which I agree, I find it, for the most part,seriously annoying.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Rahere
Date: 14 Nov 14 - 06:42 PM

Me, I'm me. Not three different people, but I do try to give my moneysworth.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 14 Nov 14 - 04:41 PM

I had the misfortune to be at Wembley last Sunday when Ms Stone sang something that was only just recognizable as Eric Bogle's "No Man's Land" (at least she go the title right). Her performance seemed to be almost entirely about herself, and when I had the opportubity to watch the live transmission when I eventually got back home, the sound mixing had raised it to probably the second worst version I have ever heard, redeemed at least partially by Jeff Beck's guitar playing.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 14 Nov 14 - 03:27 PM

Rahere - you are a very interesting but somewhat oddly unfathomable bloke...???

At least Musk has made it clear he is in fact 3 entirely different people...


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Rahere
Date: 14 Nov 14 - 03:15 PM

PFR
I've tried to be reasonable so far. But when you twist the facts and try to spin your way out like this, you drop to an entire new lower level of pondlife. I too can be abusive, you sick imitation of a cordwanglers mooly. When you have no standards to work from bar a pale palimsest of patriotism, becoming an atavistic avatar of avarice, you appear to be a derisory delusion of a donkey's donut.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 14 Nov 14 - 02:24 PM

I've an idea - whilst this thread is still narrowly above the BS line - let's talk about Eric Bogle again..

I've been checking out his website and various other internet activites.

Mr Bogle has a great sense of humour, and doesn't seem to take himself too seriously.

I wonder how he actually feels about his more extremist over dramatic fans
who have currently whipped themselves up so defensively hysterical & doolally on his behalf...???

With callous disregard for the harm they may be causing
this well intentioned, though slightly misguided, welfare charity fundraiser.....


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Nov 14 - 12:30 PM

It was worthwhile to resist a ruthless invading oppressor, and we should be grateful to those who were prepared to fight for us.
It is truly insulting so suggest that they were just too stupid to know what they were fighting for or to understand the cause, or to suggest that their cause was worthless.
It was not.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Musket
Date: 14 Nov 14 - 11:48 AM

Not an insult, just an uncomfortable truth. It would be even more insulting to think such actions were worthwhile and an option today.

We have enough on with Putin's expansion rhetoric and Cameron's reminding him how we deal with imperialist aggressors.

Lest we forget? I think some politicians are missing the point. Or, more chillingly, might be getting it hence the drive to sanitise the waste of a generation.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Nov 14 - 11:07 AM

No glory or pomp from me, but it is an insult to the dead to claim it was all a futile waste.
The cost as terrible but the cruel aggressor had to be stopped.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Musket
Date: 14 Nov 14 - 09:58 AM

Shhh.. Quiet Keith, you are showing yourself up. You dearly want to talk with the big boys but sadly, you are out of your depth now. The glory, pomp and circumstance of glorious war has been put to bed in this thread, we are discussing the futility, waste, lies, callousness, indifference and shame of war.

Western civilisation... Cue Ghandi quote.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Acorn4
Date: 14 Nov 14 - 09:55 AM

Just continuing the Teribus point, German military thinking was held in the straightjacket of the "Schlieffen Plan" - as France and Russia were bound my a military alliance, Germany would be facing a war on two fronts - Russia had mobilised in support of its ally Serbia - it was generally thought that the Russian army would take six weeks to get ready owing to distances etc. The Germans had defeated the French in five weeks in the Franco-Prussian War and it was reckoned that if they could do the same again, they would then be free to use all their forces against Russia. The Russian mobilisation meant that this would no longer be possible, and caused the German High Command to go into panic mode as there was no "plan B" - Schlieffen himself had died some years earlier. There was also the miscalculation in thinking the British would not stick by a treaty with Belgium going back to 1839.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Nov 14 - 09:09 AM

http://www.theguardian.com/music/musicblog/2014/nov/12/eric-bogle-responds-to-joss-stones-cover-of-his-song-no-mans-land


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Nov 14 - 09:01 AM

Taking your Oxford English Dictionary definition of "civilisation":

(1)the stage of human social development and organisation which is considered most advanced
(2)the society, culture and way of life of a particular area.

Then tacking "Western" on the front you would find that throughout Europe (the specific or particular area you have chosen to focus on) there was no great desire for war among the majority of "western"/European nations apart from Germany and the Austro-Hungarian Empire due to Serbian agitation.

The First World War kicked off the way it did because German mobilisation once ordered could not be halted and that mobilisation required the immediate attack through Luxembourg and Belgium in order that bottlenecks did not develop that would have a detrimental effect on the German attack on France in the West.

It had nothing whatsoever to do with "western civilisation" per se.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Nov 14 - 08:41 AM

Is Western Civilisation responsible for hundreds of thousands dead and millions displaced in Syria?


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 14 Nov 14 - 08:22 AM

Terribus,

As previously stated I have no wish to get involved in this discussion, however

Civilisation according to The Oxford English Dictionary is (1)the stage of human social development and organisation which is considered most advanced or (2)the society, culture and way of life of a particular area.

Were German Imperialism, Serbian Nationalism even British Imperialism together with the roles played by France, Italy, Austria/Hungary et al not part of Western Civilisation.

If this is not acceptable to you there's nothing further I can say.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Nov 14 - 07:45 AM

Raggytash would you care to let me and everyone else in on how "western civilisation" was responsible for what at the time was known as "The Great War"? I can put up a pretty good argument for German Imperialism and Serbian Nationalism but "western civilisation" - NO.

Dying to read your reasoning then perhaps we could apportion blame for the 50-odd million who died between 1918 and 1920 because of the Spanish Flu Pandemic on "Chinese Civilisation" as that geographically is where it was considered to have originated.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Musket
Date: 14 Nov 14 - 07:10 AM

Thanks Raggytash.

I worked on the idea that if he doesn't know despite his ability to string sentences together, well you can't educate pork.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 14 Nov 14 - 06:12 AM

Teribus

I've tried to keep out of this discussion I said my piece some days ago but you raised an issue (12th Nov 08.16)

You suggested that Musket could not tell us what Western civilisation should be ashamed of.

Could I answer that on his behalf. The total number of casualties during the First World War was 37 million (37,000,000)

Globally over 16 million (16,000,000) people were killed and over 20 million (20,000,000) wounded including both my Grandfathers and my Great Uncle.

If that is NOT something that Western Civilisation should be ashamed of I really don't what would qualify.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Sol
Date: 14 Nov 14 - 05:19 AM

Russell Brand said this on RT about a certain section of the population.
I paraphrase....
"They send their kids away to boarding school. If that's how much they care about their children, how much do you think they care about you?"


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 14 Nov 14 - 04:47 AM

Rahere for PM. I'd vote for him! Fascinating stuff.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Rahere
Date: 13 Nov 14 - 10:01 PM

Teribus, if you'd bothered to read my other postings you'd see I parted company with the light green jobs over something currently under criminal investigation in NI, but was brought back when they needed a safe pair of hands running ops financing in the European defence HQ, where I stayed 18 years.
I understand your viewpoint if you were RN - my family was Pompey, Cumberland Road, grandpa was CPO Mess Steward for Jackie Fisher. You don't get an objective viewpoint when at sea, and you'd not have met the ex-Army types around Pompey or Plymouth, they stayed in the Home Counties within reach of St James clubland, where they did and do pull an unwarranted amount of weight. They don't know the back streets of Edmonton, let alone Gosport.
My generation was taught by the next wave, an Aussie major fresh from Nam and the aftermath of Bloody Sunday, which was one hell of a wake-up call to all the aspirant Ruperts. Some of my mates were in the Falklands, but by that time I was gone, in civvy steet with Schweppes - production chasing for NAAFI amongst others, one little thing was getting the drinks in for the task force. About the only thing they didn't run out of, coke cans.
Trouble wuth that arm is that if you've got it, you never lose it - I showed WEU how to use other sources, faster than the usual. Even this summer, three years after retirement, something came up which had the US SD and UK refresh my clearance.

The question is, at root, who did you work for when push came to shove? Your attestation oath's to the heirarchy, but after that? One reply above, pure squaddy, is your mates. Your family, if like me you've been military for a few hundred years. An uncle was one of the youngest RMs on the Vindictive raids in 1918. Peter Carrington, I got to know on first-name terms, one of a fistful of Statesmen. Tom King, Douglas Hurd, yes. David Davies, former SAS trooper, much undervalued. But for the rest, yugh. Robin Cook was in particular a nightmare, utterly isolated in the European diplomatic corps. You could talk to people like George Papandreou or Carl Bilt, but Cook? A prickly, insecure pipsqueak.

What went wrong is at the heart of the political nightmare to this day, politicians wanting to use the power for themselves rather than the good of the Nation writ large. Power to claim expenses for duck houses. Power to sell uniforms to troops (that was one WWI abuse). This week we've seen the NAO paste our local GPs in North London for an abusive structure designed to milk their budgets into their own pockets without justification (one weekend a short while back there was just one GP on call for 650 000 people in North London). A similar problem has just been found in Tower Hamlets where no end of contracts and assets have ended up in the hands of the Mayor and his cronies through what seems to be maladministration in mechanism, I leave it to you to define the motive. Abstract this and you'll see that the Nation as a whole is an untidy mess of businesses and leisure, services and support, infrastructure and intangibles, banking and bonking, and the entire politican and civil service machine should support the lot, from cradle to grave, from the dimmest moron to the greatest genius. Political parties start to twist it for their support, and with 730 billion pounds at play, that's one tempting jackpot to target. The figures were smaller in 1914, but the value every whit as tempting, and one of the figures not discussed is just how much was creamed of by politicians doing exactly the same thing, giving themselves the big contracts.

Now, you can be a naive optimist and believe that politicians are benevolent folks doing it out of the purest goodness of their hearts. And you can also believe in the tooth fairy. The point is that out of the mess and chaos comes something we call a Nation, and it is that we defend. You may iconise it as a Monarch, or as business, or people, or... but beware those who try flogging you their image, as they may not have your wellbeing at heart. At the moment we suffer from a people in peonage and business doing rather too well by comparison. In Germany in 1930 the adoption of the latest Pied Piper would have dire consequences. It has happened before, it is up to those who have heard the tune before to say don't dance to it.

And that is the gist of this, not to swallow Joss Stone's siren song. The electorate has far more say now that it had 50 years ago, and we must beware that the State doesn't cut it back. They try, they try.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Sol
Date: 13 Nov 14 - 07:42 PM

Eric Bogle responds .....
http://www.theguardian.com/music/musicblog/2014/nov/12/eric-bogle-responds-to-joss-stones-cover-of-his-song-no-mans-land

(ps Hope the link works)


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 09:10 AM

Couldn't agree more Desi C


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 09:06 AM

GUEST,Rahere

"You obviously didn't live in the UK in the 1950s/60s."

Oh yes I did.

Harry Enfield/Public Service; Captain Mainwaring - Impressed over much by television programmes are you? Perhaps you think that "Oh what a lovely war" and "Blackadder goes forth" are actual historical works - if so then more fool you.

If you were in training at RMA Sandhurst in the 1960s or 1970s then we are of the same vintage although I was not Army. So the people we would have encountered across a broad spectrum of civilian life would have been much of a muchness - I can't remember coming across the types you describe, in fact most WWII veterans tended to be very self-effacing and humble and quiet about their war service

By the way those "old timers" you came across in training that you are so ready to disparage were the ones who taught Frank Kitson his trade in Malaya and in Kenya. They were also the ones that US General David Petraeus's Australian counter-insurgency Guru Lt-Col David Kilcullen studied and learned from. In fact during the "Cold War" those old timers didn't do too badly:
Malaya, Kenya, Cyprus, Kuwait, Suez, Aden, Dhofar, Borneo, Northern Ireland, Falklands, etc, etc.

Involved in any of those were you Rahere? Or was your mention of the Duke of Westminster evidence of the fact that you were a TA Occifer? or possibly a sidelined regular?

The Irish Bombing campaign if I remember correctly only really succeeded in killing innocent civilians - the very civilians that they swore they never targeted and were fighting to protect - I'd have told them to F**K Off and protect someone else.

The tenor of this entire posting of yours screams of "chippiness" and "failure" liberally laced with envy - what happened did someone catch you putting the milk in first?

"The military in every democracy have a fine line to walk between guarding the Nation and bullying it."

Where on earth do you get this crap from? The military in the British isles only ever bullied the nation or the people once and that was back in the time of Cromwell - that is why it remains to this day Parliament's Army by the Sovereign's Royal Navy - Since that time the British Army has always experienced a bit of distrust of it on the part of the civilian population - not so the Navy, the Navy protected and promoted trade and made the country money - which was spent ashore.

"who is the nation?"

Today? Good question, perhaps you could tell us, after you have first told us what nation.

"We have eased their grip - but what we must beware of is allowing them to impose it again."


Who is the "WE" Chippy.

"jiddery=pokery??" Jiggery-pokery surely.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Desi C
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 09:00 AM

Well the omission of the last verse is objectionable enough, but as a piece of music it's somewhere between a cheaphair shampoo advery and the sound of a motor bike revving up, in other words rubbish


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Musket
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 08:47 AM

Who'd have thought Michael Gove could have made such an impression on so many people eh?


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Musket
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 08:26 AM

Ever thought why people bow their heads when laying poppies at a cenotaph fool?

Read The post above about Harry Patch, then go back and read the posts your boy scout mate Keith and you wrote about Palestine.

Then decide whether decent people should give you the time of day.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 08:16 AM

Musket, it would appear that:

- You cannot tell us, or give us an example of anyone who thinks that war is noble - why not just say so.

- You cannot tell us of what Western Civilisation should be ashamed of.

- You cannot tell us what this military mindset is or what it is they are supposed to be leading.

So in short you basically turn out on this forum and spout a complete and utter load of bollocks.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 08:10 AM

UK went to war to stop an aggressive invasion wreaked upon others and threatening us.
The people were behind the government in resisting it.
Historians today agree the decision was right.
No choice.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 08:05 AM

GUEST,AC:

"Everything happens in a context and the context of this incident is the Tory campaign that has been going on all year (launched by Michael Gove and Max Hastings) to rewrite history and portray WWI as a noble crusade against oppression and German military domination and for freedom and liberty. It was no such thing. The 850,000 British and Commonwealth troops who died (and the hundreds of thousands more injured and maimed) were not fighting for their own interests but for the selfish interests of their rulers: competing for markets and colonies."

History is constantly being rewritten AC, what is your "beef", that the rewriting doesn't screech to a halt when "your" preferred version comes round? Hastings by the way is correct the British First World War Commanders were nowhere near as bad a Lloyd "Bloody" George and leftist-luvvies tried to paint them in hindsight – Lloyd George was basically a clueless opportunist who found himself in a position where he was completely out of his depth.

A "Noble crusade against oppression" - Ah so the Belgians actually wanted to be forcibly annexed and incorporated into a greater Germany then? Not to forget Luxembourg of course?

Let us just imagine what would have potentially been the case had we had stayed out of it in 1914:

1: The Germans would have defeated the French in 1914, they would have defeated the Russians by about 1916.

2: Having defeated the French all French Colonies would have been taken over by the Germans giving them their "Place in the Sun", they would also as promised have annexed Belgium and that would have given the German High Seas Fleet a base roughly 110 miles from London (They could then shell London from the Thames Estuary).

3: Not having mobilized, Britain would find itself facing a German Army of 5 million with a standing Army of roughly 440,000 with no opportunity to increase that number in case such increase could be viewed by Germany as a provocation to attack - Germany's troops would be battle hardened ours would not.

4: Germany could then return to its tricks at the turn of the century of causing trouble in British overseas possessions and colonies (Boer War
You see in 1914 Great Britain was offered a choice, fight Germany now when we have a chance of beating them or sit back and wait until a point is reached where a German victory over ourselves is inevitable. Your call AC what would you have gone for? Sir Edward Grey was perfectly correct in electing for war in the national interests of Great Britain and her Empire in 1914.

"Not fighting for their own interests"

Care to name any war in history between nation states where soldiers have fought for their interests? By the way what were the "selfish interests of their rulers" you referred to?

No competition for markets and colonies – the French were just going to lose all theirs if they lost and ours would have gone soon after. Note that occurrence would not have been in the best interests of the British working man as they would have lost markets for whatever it was that they produced so jobs would have been lost, still they could have flocked to the Army that would be required to take on a much stronger Germany in the 1920s eh?


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 07:44 AM

I think what people think in regard to war is down to the individual but I found this quote from Harry Patch who had been the last surviving Briitsh army veteran prior to his death in 2011. Obviously not all of the soldiers would have thought the war was necessary etc.

"When the war ended, I don't know if I was more relieved that we'd won or that I didn't have to go back. Passchendaele was a disastrous battle – thousands and thousands of young lives were lost. It makes me angry. Earlier this year, I went back to Ypres to shake the hand of Herr Kuentz, Germany's only surviving veteran from the war. It was emotional. He is 107. We've had 87 years to think what war is. To me, it's a licence to go out and murder. Why should the British government call me up and take me out to a battlefield to shoot a man I never knew, whose language I couldn't speak? All those lives lost for a war finished over a table. Now what is the sense in that?"


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Musket
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 07:13 AM

Feeling particularly proud today Terribulus?

You might want to let your waffle and nonsense flow over into the patriotism thread. Sounds right up your street, fool.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 06:51 AM

Musket:

"there are still some who think war is noble."

WHO??

"I wonder how many dead young men would, if they knew, weep at the sight of the last ceramic poppy being laid at The Tower at 11.00am today?"

All if not the great majority of them.

"We put a 13 year old child in a soldier's uniform, and surrounded by soldiers, we made him stand and salute like a soldier and lay the poppy."

No WE didn't. If you asked that 13 year old you would find that he voluntarily joined the Army Cadet Corps with the express permission of his Parents, that he was proud to do so and honoured to stand as the representative of our youngest generation willing to serve, alongside representatives of all former British servicemen and those currently serving to honour and remember the British servicemen who died during the First World War – the ceramic poppies at the Tower of London are to commemorate soldiers, sailors and airmen killed in the Great War – nothing "civilian" about it so it is eminently suitable that the last poppy was placed there by a representative of our youngest generation. That is why having him "wearing a pair of jeans and a hoody" would not have been appropriate.

"Just in case we run out of cannon fodder, we glorify that which Western civilisation should be deeply ashamed of."

Pray tell what is it that "Western Civilisation" should be deeply ashamed of?

The advances in medical science introduced by us that have saved the lives of millions all over the world?

The promotion of world trade?

The abolition of slavery? – although admittedly as we have retreated back into our own part of the world slavery is again sadly on the increase

Driving Piracy from the trade routes of the world? – but once again as we have withdrawn the pirates have returned (I can remember someone predicting that years ago in the 1960s when Healey came out with the withdrawal from east of Suez)

Living up to our treaty obligations irrespective of cost, and in doing so succeeded in defeating both fascism and communism?

The humanitarian assistance that we unstintingly give time and time again, only to be castigated and abused for doing it? Where are Russia and China when it actually comes to helping out?

" typical of war mongering generals."

Care to name one.

"We will never learn whilst it is military mindset that leads the remembering."

What military mindset?? But taking that point at face value it would be a bit difficult that Musket as the vast majority of those being remembered are military – the military are the de facto majority shareholders when it comes to losing people in armed conflict and as such are better placed to undertake what is required to remember their comrades – if you doubt that Musket here are the figures for the two world wars:

First World War – UK military deaths 888,246; Civilian deaths 16,829

Second World War – UK military deaths 383,800; Civilian deaths 67,100


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Nov 14 - 06:03 AM

GUEST,Rahere:

"I still say focus on the future. What kind of world do you want and how do you intend to get there? Yes, if you forget the lessons of the past you're bound to repeat them in the future, but learn the lessons of the past and don't wallow in it."

The Festival of Remembrance, Remembrance Day and observation of the two minutes silence at 11.00hrs on the 11th November – have got nothing whatsoever to do with "wallowing in the past" as you put it – they have on the other hand got a great deal to do with honouring a promise made roughly 95 years ago. It is not something that "The British" are particularly maudlin' about – doubt that then go over to Belgium and visit the Menin Gate Memorial in the town of Ypres around 20:00hrs when buglers from the local Fire Brigade conduct a "Last Post" Ceremony, carried out uninterrupted every day since 2nd July 1928 (Although during the German occupation Belgian troops shifted the ceremony temporarily to the Brookwood Military Cemetery in Surrey). On the evening that Ypres was liberated during the Second World War the buglers from the Fire Brigade resumed the ceremony at the Menin Gate Memorial while there was still fighting going on inside the town – The reason that they do it was out of gratitude and because they made a solemn promise to those who gave their lives in defence of the town between 1914 and 1918 that they would do it.

"It's a tendency in the folk world to live in the past"

I certainly do not, although I would be interested if you could tell me how that could be done.

"…..even more so in the Military, when the need to justify oneself to the beancounters is almost all in what you've done and not what you're doing, but even so, it's only a part of the real world and it's out of proportion."

The military thankfully have their traditions service by service and in the Army Regiment by Regiment and Corps by Corps. These traditions have their place and are very useful when it comes to bonding a group of disparate strangers into a cohesive unit, in being introduced to and informed of these traditions and being taught to follow and accept them, the newcomers are brought into "the family", a family that you never leave.

The importance of tradition? When faced with the evacuation of the Freyberg's ANZACS from Crete in the face of overwhelming enemy air superiority concerns were raised by the Army about potential naval losses that would be incurred – Admiral Cunningham's response was simple – "The Navy will not let the Army down – It takes three years to build a ship, it takes three centuries to build a tradition – the evacuation will continue as planned". If that is the result of "wallowing in it" then perhaps we should do more of it, not less. Don't knock it it has produced results that have astounded the world.

"when I was young, it was just Remembrance Sunday, now it's 11th as well and it's getting to be weeks either side of it too. That's morose to the point of sickness."

Well if that is your recollection then whilst you were in "Occifer Training" (RMA Sandhurst??) they sorely neglected your education:

Originally both Remembrance Sunday and the two minutes silence at 11:00 on the 11th November were observed with all traffic coming to a halt in the streets. The latter lapsed but was reintroduced after a campaign for its reintroduction was mounted in the 1990s. It does not "drag on" for weeks either side.

"The dead gave their lives so you should live, not spend all your days moping."

I can assure you that I most certainly do not spend my days "moping" and I do not know any that do.

"The women they left behind became the maiden aunts of my youth, and are now gone."

AND?? Your point being??

"Our generation lost 453 in Afghanistan, and 179 in Iraq, with 47 in the Gulf War. The order of magnitude is completely different, and whilst there is no moral difference between one and a million, the effect on the population is different in real terms."

The Gulf War; Afghanistan and Iraq were international "policing" actions to which the UK contributed troops – they were NOT Wars as the First and Second World Wars were. Cannot imagine why you did not mention Malaya, Kenya, Suez, Cyprus, Kuwait, Aden, Dhofar, Borneo, Northern Ireland, the Falklands, Kosovo and Sierre Leone? "Our generation" lost a damned sight more than in the conflicts you mentioned.

"And to come back to the core of the meme, to do this, they cheat and con."

Sorry you've lost me. Who is cheating who out of what and who is conning who? The meme as you term it was drawn up and agreed by those who had been fortunate enough to live through it, who had lost close family members and loved ones – who better to detail how those who gave their lives should be remembered – it should not be a moving feast to be open to alteration by those who came after and never experienced it merely because of "convenience" – the 1990s campaign illustrates that – it is what honouring and remembering is all about.

"….my respects to them will be my own, and not this. And that, I would venture, is how it should be, because then it will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth."

Should that read:

"….my respects to them will be my own, as I see fit and as is convenient to me, and not this. And that, I would venture, is how it should be, because it is more convenient to me, then it will be the truth as far as I can see it, the whole truth as I chose to see it, and nothing else is worth considering."


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