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Mudcat - changes in style and profile

Stilly River Sage 07 May 15 - 10:38 PM
Steve Shaw 07 May 15 - 10:16 PM
Spleen Cringe 07 May 15 - 10:11 PM
Steve Shaw 07 May 15 - 10:09 PM
Spleen Cringe 07 May 15 - 09:51 PM
Steve Shaw 07 May 15 - 09:24 PM
olddude 07 May 15 - 09:11 PM
Stilly River Sage 07 May 15 - 08:59 PM
Spleen Cringe 07 May 15 - 08:38 PM
Janie 07 May 15 - 08:34 PM
Steve Shaw 07 May 15 - 08:30 PM
Steve Shaw 07 May 15 - 08:29 PM
Spleen Cringe 07 May 15 - 08:18 PM
Jeri 07 May 15 - 07:41 PM
akenaton 07 May 15 - 07:22 PM
olddude 07 May 15 - 07:21 PM
Steve Shaw 07 May 15 - 07:12 PM
TheSnail 07 May 15 - 07:07 PM
Joe Offer 07 May 15 - 06:19 PM
Joe Offer 07 May 15 - 06:03 PM
TheSnail 07 May 15 - 05:58 PM
Musket 07 May 15 - 05:52 PM
GUEST 07 May 15 - 05:51 PM
Joe Offer 07 May 15 - 05:41 PM
Joe Offer 07 May 15 - 05:33 PM
Steve Shaw 07 May 15 - 05:32 PM
Steve Shaw 07 May 15 - 05:24 PM
TheSnail 07 May 15 - 05:23 PM
Joe Offer 07 May 15 - 05:18 PM
Steve Shaw 07 May 15 - 05:14 PM
GUEST 07 May 15 - 05:03 PM
Stilly River Sage 07 May 15 - 05:01 PM
Steve Shaw 07 May 15 - 04:36 PM
Steve Shaw 07 May 15 - 04:32 PM
Stilly River Sage 07 May 15 - 04:25 PM
Steve Shaw 07 May 15 - 04:24 PM
Spleen Cringe 07 May 15 - 04:18 PM
akenaton 07 May 15 - 03:57 PM
TheSnail 07 May 15 - 03:33 PM
Joe Offer 07 May 15 - 03:25 PM
Joe Offer 07 May 15 - 03:13 PM
Spleen Cringe 07 May 15 - 03:01 PM
TheSnail 07 May 15 - 01:21 PM
olddude 07 May 15 - 01:12 PM
Backwoodsman 07 May 15 - 12:56 PM
GUEST,Pete from seven stars link 07 May 15 - 12:47 PM
Stilly River Sage 07 May 15 - 12:27 PM
Amos 07 May 15 - 12:13 PM
Spleen Cringe 07 May 15 - 12:04 PM
olddude 07 May 15 - 11:54 AM
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Subject: RE: Mudcat - changes in style and profile
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 07 May 15 - 10:38 PM

Enough already. The fighting is a bigger problem than the bigots. Instead of taking a global view you're using tunnel vision. The fighting has to stop. If you want to fight these battles, find other sites that have this as their goal and work with them. Mudcat is a music site.

SRS


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Subject: RE: Mudcat - changes in style and profile
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 May 15 - 10:16 PM

So what are you doing here then?


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Subject: RE: Mudcat - changes in style and profile
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 07 May 15 - 10:11 PM

Neither, to be frank.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat - changes in style and profile
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 May 15 - 10:09 PM

So what would you rather be? An unreconstructed bigot like Akenaton, or a flawed human being who wants to see a good forum but who may be tactically deficient? I know what I'd choose.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat - changes in style and profile
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 07 May 15 - 09:51 PM

"Tactically deficient" sums it up.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat - changes in style and profile
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 May 15 - 09:24 PM

I do not pursue people. I hardly ever instigate arguments and all I do is react to what I see as outrage. You see that as a bad tactic and you may be right. But the moderators of this board have an even more rotten tactic. You indulge bigotry. Once again, since I last posted you have been gentle with Akenaton. I mean, can't you see that you are feeding a very nasty troll by doing that? If you really expect to get away with that on a lively discussion forum without several people of good intent, of humanitarian instinct, but who say to hell with tactics, getting very passionate, then you really don't understand human beings at all. Coming back to the matter of pursuing people, by far the worst offender on that score here, Keith, is rarely criticised by moderators. He is a baleful presence on this board but you apparently do nothing about him. You let Keith, pete and Akenaton run amok on this board yet you bollock the right-minded yet tactically-deficient people to kingdom come. I was once called a Jew-hater by a long-time member of this board, one of those guys who moan about people leaving. You did nothing. Stop bollocking decent people who want a decent forum, in spite of their tactics, and cast out your own mote. You are the problem.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat - changes in style and profile
From: olddude
Date: 07 May 15 - 09:11 PM

People come here for friends and music this is Not A free for all your political views are better than others views. If you want to continue to engage start your own site its easy enough. Like I said me I would shut down mudcat if I owned it. There is little friendship or music anymor . No wonder so many great people took off.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat - changes in style and profile
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 07 May 15 - 08:59 PM

Alright, Ake - the lowest statistics regarding HIV bar none will be lesbians. There is no reason to prohibit them from marrying, right? And by the way, this isn't really the best place and time to take up this whole argument.

Musket x 3, you each need to get your own accounts. This whack-a-mole game drives everyone nuts.

Steve, I have worked to try to connect with a couple of people who seemed to be close to relenting on the constant fighting and bickering. But failing to understand that the fighting is just as destructive as the political view you disagree with, let me put it this way. You are using a scorched earth policy in your pursuit of a few people who don't share your views. This means everything in your path is trashed, threads closed, and the reputation of Mudcat as a place for interesting and civil discourse is diminished. We are grownups here, we understand that not everyone agrees all of the time. You need to BACK OFF. The Muskets need to stuff it. Talk about other things and let Mudcat take care of itself.

SRS


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Subject: RE: Mudcat - changes in style and profile
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 07 May 15 - 08:38 PM

Joe, a thumbs up back atcha to your post of 5:33, with the caveat that some of us on this side of the pond would agree that the best response to the sort of views you're talking about is indeed to see them as stoopid rather than offensive...


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Subject: RE: Mudcat - changes in style and profile
From: Janie
Date: 07 May 15 - 08:34 PM

Well articulated mission statement, Joe.

But yeah, we do delete posts when they are overly combative, because they are deleterious to the well-being of Mudcat. It doesn't matter to us whether people have "correct" political opinions or not. We moderate for the sole purpose of the survival of Mudcat as a place for discussion. We have never acknowledged any obligation to delete or not delete anything. Our only purpose is our survival, not what you consider to be appropriate or not.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat - changes in style and profile
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 May 15 - 08:30 PM

That was a response to Jeri.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat - changes in style and profile
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 May 15 - 08:29 PM

Rubbish. This is basically a good board which could be predicated on principles of common decency. I've told you about a board on which this happens and how it's done. Zero tolerance of bigotry, no posting unless logged in, no anonymity. You're nice to Akenaton, you expect people of decent instincts to exchange ideas with him, you let him get away with murder and you pretend that you're silencing bigots at source but clearly you are not. Read my lips: if moderators name and shame bigots, the bigots go away. Why? Because you have made the ground barren for them. The people who moderate this board are one hundred percent the problem here. You attack those of us who want the bigotry gone and your main criticism is that we can get sweary. Get this into your head right? Sweariness in the face of bigotry may be a bad tactic but we are human beings, and the sweariness is ten times less bad than the bigotry you are so indulgent about. Just look at the gentle handling of Akenaton in this thread. Instead of squashing him out of sight, you indulge him. That is far more trolling than anything we can say. You are actually feeding a troll, for Christ's sake.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat - changes in style and profile
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 07 May 15 - 08:18 PM

Musket, Akenaton is only a criminal once he is arrested, tried and found guity. Until then, he is only a criminal in your own head(s). Either shit or get off the pot on this one. Please note that in saying this I am not defending his views.

I don't laugh at those who 'find hate sickening' - but I am amused by those who think haranguing one man on a folk forum, whose largely irrelevant views represents no-one but himself, strikes a blow for progressive ideas. That's all I have to say on the subject, because I have no wish to feed you, and now I'm going back to watching the election coverage and worrying about the Tories getting another five years.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat - changes in style and profile
From: Jeri
Date: 07 May 15 - 07:41 PM

This is a pretty good demonstration of how trolls subvert threads. Silencing people=ridding the world of certain opinions; religion=bad; buttfucking... Any other favorite subjects people are missing?

Seriously, if you wander off where trolls lure you, you're part of the problem. Even if you THINK you're defending all things righteous, you're fucking up whatever discussion you've turned your back on.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat - changes in style and profile
From: akenaton
Date: 07 May 15 - 07:22 PM

SRS...With the greatest of respect you have misread the CDC fact sheet
Please go back and read it again, in percentage terms AND in real numbers, the MSM demographic is the group most massively affected by HIV. Black American males with HIV are in the vast majority MSM.
IDUs are actually affected at a relatively low percentage rate.

These figures flag up serious problems with male to male sexual contact. To ignore this situation, or to attempt to bring homosexuality into mainstream society, is in my opinion foolhardy and certainly not in the interests of homosexuals.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat - changes in style and profile
From: olddude
Date: 07 May 15 - 07:21 PM

Who the hell are you guys to critize Joe if I recall correctly in the 15 years I been here we didn't delete any posts because most people were decent to each other and discussed usually in a sane manner. Not true since so of you joined


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Subject: RE: Mudcat - changes in style and profile
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 May 15 - 07:12 PM

I am not striving to change your opinion, Joe Offer. I put my points as directly and as honestly as I can. Take it or leave it. You don't strive to make me change my opinion of you either. Let's not be too arrogant about that. We have better ways of channelling our energies.

You're not sure who I was addressing? I was addressing the person whose post I was responding to. I'm a very straightforward and simple man, whatever my faults might be. Disingenuousness does not suit you. Avoid it is my advice.

Your 05.33 post is a shocking example of unjustified generalisation. Try replacing Brits and Americans with races of different colour. Or Jews vs Christians. Do have a little think before you post, Joe.

As for combative vs exchange of ideas, well I don't know how one exchanges ideas with a confirmed bigot such as Akenaton. I note your recent very gentle semi-rebuttal of his remarks. It doesn't work. In fact, it's counterproductive. He really does think he's in bed with you and SRS now. You give him succour when you shouldn't be giving him one inch. How lovely for you. You actually don't seem to know what is and what isn't "deleterious to Mudcat." We may not be the best tacticians at times, but we do at least know that much. Akenaton's bigotry, and he's not alone, is a cancer. You're feeding it. Then you shout at us for wanting it out. Shame.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat - changes in style and profile
From: TheSnail
Date: 07 May 15 - 07:07 PM

Thanks Joe. May I just say that it seems to have escaped your notice that us Brits (as you insist on calling us) have quite diverse views.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat - changes in style and profile
From: Joe Offer
Date: 07 May 15 - 06:19 PM

Agreed, Snail. When I was moderator, I tended to be far more reluctant to delete things - and I got a lot of criticism for that. Since my reluctant approach didn't work, the new team is being far more activist in deleting. That makes me uncomfortable, but I'm hoping it will work. I try very hard not to interfere.
-Joe-


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Subject: RE: Mudcat - changes in style and profile
From: Joe Offer
Date: 07 May 15 - 06:03 PM

And Steve, whether you're nice or not, may not be the issue. It's your attitude toward forum discussion. It appears to me that you still see discussion as combat, not as an exchange of ideas.

And Musket, did you bother to read my 5:33 PM observation on the difference between Brits and Americans? Your opinion seems to be that expressions you deem offensive must be removed. My opinion is that they must be preserved, so people can see how stupid my opponent is. Those are two differing opinions. People can disagree without the world coming to an end. And it really isn't all that important whether one side or the other can claim victory.

But yeah, we do delete posts when they are overly combative, because they are deleterious to the well-being of Mudcat. It doesn't matter to us whether people have "correct" political opinions or not. We moderate for the sole purpose of the survival of Mudcat as a place for discussion. We have never acknowledged any obligation to delete or not delete anything. Our only purpose is our survival, not what you consider to be appropriate or not.

-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: Mudcat - changes in style and profile
From: TheSnail
Date: 07 May 15 - 05:58 PM

Americans tend to see opposing opinions as wrong or stupid - and they certainly don't want expressions of those opinions removed because the statements are proof of just how stupid their opponent is.

I think you will find that many of the British would agree, including me, which is why I find it odd that Musket's rather strange post was deleted. I had criticised him but he has been denied his right of reply. I was happy with his reply because it rather demonstrated my point about his debating style.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat - changes in style and profile
From: Musket
Date: 07 May 15 - 05:52 PM

So my posts are missing whilst Akenaton can lie about sections of society again?

SRS - as your facts on USA show a piece of reality, I can tell you UK figures. The majority of people living with HIV are "straight." The largest risk is the "born in sub Saraha Africa" demographic. The most responsible demographic is gay men, whose large numbers attending screening is a huge success story.

Shutting your eyes and sticking your fingers in your ears doesn't make Akenaton any better. He is homophobic and uses Mudcat to spread it. If you are in a position to ensure Mudcat members don't have to read distressing posts about their family, I suggest you do so and show some common fucking decency for once.

I know The USA well, spend about a month a year over there, and refuse to stereotype some of the nicest people I know. Not every American is a moderator, on Mudcat so not every American defends homophobic hatred.

Opposing views Joe? Civilised countries differentiate between views and incitement to hatred. Akenaton is a criminal by his posts and the legislation that does that was introduced by The Scottish National Party, which is nicely ironic, given his confused support for a party that opposes every shred of his existence. Steve isn't a criminal, I'm not. Get some perspective.

Alternatively, join spleen cringe and the snail in laughing at those who find hate sickening.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat - changes in style and profile
From: GUEST
Date: 07 May 15 - 05:51 PM

Brits don't tolerate bigotry in polite company. Americans appear to tolerate it.

Not sure where that puts either on a polite-rude scale


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Subject: RE: Mudcat - changes in style and profile
From: Joe Offer
Date: 07 May 15 - 05:41 PM

Oh, and Steve, what I said was, "According to my mindset, I would say the two nastiest persons posting to this thread are Musket and Steve Shaw."

That's my opinion, based on a long period of experience. You don't really seem to be working very hard to change my opinion. Your responses to me have been quite combative. You may be nice to SRS because you see her as the One in Authority, but you certainly haven't bent over backwards to be nice to me.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: Mudcat - changes in style and profile
From: Joe Offer
Date: 07 May 15 - 05:33 PM

I'm not sure whom you're addressing with your "yanks polite/brits rude" assessment, Steve. I think the difference is in how the two cultures perceive opposing statements. Brits seem to have more of a tendency to view opposing opinions as offensive - and they tend to want to see those opinions removed. Americans tend to see opposing opinions as wrong or stupid - and they certainly don't want expressions of those opinions removed because the statements are proof of just how stupid their opponent is.
Which is "right" and which is "wrong"? Neither. They're just different.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: Mudcat - changes in style and profile
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 May 15 - 05:32 PM

Patronising and dismissive, Joe Offer. You called me the nastiest person ON THIS THREAD. Your response to my complaint about your misjudgement is well wide of the mark. You know I'm not exactly the kind of bloke to let you get away with that. Examine your conscience. Mine's clear.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat - changes in style and profile
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 May 15 - 05:24 PM

I have criticised akenaton's post without rude bluster. You will do almost anything other than stamp on this obnoxious person's bigotry. You can do it if you like. Address the issue. It can be done. You don't have to sit up 24 hours a day to do it. Shit on the bigotry every time you see it, name and shame him, and he will go away. At the moment he thinks he's in bed with you. Wow. You hold far more cards in your hand than we do. Get on with it. If your nerve fails you, have another look at his last post. It's disgusting, it sullies this board, and you know it.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat - changes in style and profile
From: TheSnail
Date: 07 May 15 - 05:23 PM

I would just like to make it clear that the deletion of Musket's attack on me (actually fairly mild, just a bit bonkers) and the whiting out of my reply were nothing to do with me but entirely down to the moderators.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat - changes in style and profile
From: Joe Offer
Date: 07 May 15 - 05:18 PM

Steve Shaw sez: Well, Joe Offer, I think that that post marks you as by far the nastiest person by far on this thread.

Gee, Steve, don't you think that could be a bit of an overreaction? You have a long history of aggressive, combative posts to live down. I concede that you have been more peaceable in recent weeks, but it sure as hell doesn't take much to set you off in a tizzy. I'm not quite ready to think of you as Saint Stephen, despite your apparent conversion. As I recall, St. Paul was quite obnoxious after his conversion...

I can't quite get the logic behind akenaton's opposition to homosexual marriage for health purposes. As SRS says and others have said often before, marriage reduces promiscuity, and that reduces the likelihood of transmission of disease. So, it seems to me that by now Ake should be a staunch supporter of gay marriage. Instead, he still puts it in quotation marks - despite the fact that it is the Law of the Land in many places.

-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: Mudcat - changes in style and profile
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 May 15 - 05:14 PM

Well I don't agree with that. It sounds like you're saying that yanks are polite and Brits are rude. That is Incredibly sweeping and incredibly bigoted. Not based on any honest and objective analysis of tens of thousands of posts. When you have done that analysis, let's have your numbers and let's have the basis on which you assess each post. Otherwise, give up on this silly assertion once and for all.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat - changes in style and profile
From: GUEST
Date: 07 May 15 - 05:03 PM

Joe Offers suggestion of a American-British cultural difference may explain most it. Each side being comfortable with their local limits, or lack of them, on free speech.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat - changes in style and profile
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 07 May 15 - 05:01 PM

Since when does rude bluster win an argument? It just makes everything worse, and no one is going to listen to what you have to say. If loud fighting is the intent, whether liberal or conservative, then threads will continue to be trimmed and closed.

SRS


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Subject: RE: Mudcat - changes in style and profile
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 May 15 - 04:36 PM

Though at least you did prove me wrong on one count.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat - changes in style and profile
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 May 15 - 04:32 PM

Sorry, way too polite. You won't stop him that way, and you know it. His views are ten times more abhorrent that the worst that Musket and the rest of us can muster. By being so indulgent you are allowing bigotry to become respectable on this board. It's in your hands.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat - changes in style and profile
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 07 May 15 - 04:25 PM

Ake, most of us think you're connecting the wrong dots regarding those figures. In the US the statistics show that young African American men are most likely to become infected, followed by IV drug users. Centers for Disease Control. When you consider that the multiple partner part of this formula is the problem, then stable monogamous (i.e., married) relationships are to be valued. So don't punish them. And letting LGBT marry in no way threatens the marriage of anyone else.

That was easy to say, it didn't require hijacking a thread to say it. I will also point out that while trying to get the combative element to tone down their rhetoric does not serve as an invitation for any of the parties in question, even those who have been soundly trounced by that combative element, to feel the discussion is any more welcome. It still isn't. Agree to disagree on LGBT issues and find other topics of conversation.

SRS


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Subject: RE: Mudcat - changes in style and profile
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 May 15 - 04:24 PM

Well, Joe Offer, I think that that post marks you as by far the nastiest person by far on this thread. Months ago I decided to remain direct but to avoid making abusive comments. Clearly, you haven't noticed. Unlike you, SRS has noticed. I have a PM from her to prove it. So you sound off as though you are no more than a casual and occasional observer "down here" and shoot your mouth off about a situation that is months out of date, without checking out the current situation first. That is unworthy of you and unworthy of the moral context in which you set yourself on this forum. In this thread I have tried to set out my honest views about the shape of this board. I do not expect many people to agree and I don't mind being shot down. But I do not expect to be vilified for expressing honest opinions just because I don't pull punches. Now, I'm told by SRS that bigotry is stamped on here before we have even seen it on the forum. I'm quite happy to accept that. But if that were truly the norm the bigots would give up. But they do not. When I started this post about twenty minutes ago the most recent post to this thread was replete with the most horrendous homophobic bigotry from Akenaton. I predict an adverse response to this carefully considered post from me but silence from you when it comes to his. Go on. Prove me wrong. Do the right thing. And do try to keep up before sounding off about stuff you haven't checked. That stinks.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat - changes in style and profile
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 07 May 15 - 04:18 PM

Snail, I,d forgotten about that. I am far less dogmatic about these things than I was, so no, I no longer believe you are a folk Stalinist - in fact I can't even remember what a folk Stalinist is... So please consider accepting the apology I'm now going offer. Um, sorry!


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Subject: RE: Mudcat - changes in style and profile
From: akenaton
Date: 07 May 15 - 03:57 PM

I agree with most of that Joe.....I have always found you fair and although I am presently an atheist, I respect the personal views of Christians. Once again I am surprised that more of the membership do not protest the ridicule that you and other Christians here have been subjected to. I and most of the membership should be aware of the years of hard work you personally have put into this forum; and to be abused by people who are simply not fit to lick your boots is a disgrace.

On to homosexuality, I don't care a leaf about what any sexual minority get up to, other than the horrific health figures which pertain to that particular group. Failing to discuss, or suppression of the issue means that the annual rise in new infections will continue unabated.

Until someone can come up with a reason for these abysmal health figures, I will continue to oppose homosexual "marriage" on the grounds that the behaviour is dangerous and unhealthy.

Several here have commented that anyone who opposes homosexual "marriage" holds views that are abhorrent, medieval, hate filled....I do not see my views as such, in fact for a large part of my life homosexuality was criminalised, a law which I opposed strongly, yet these people do not see their attitude to Christians on this forum as anyway abhorrent or hate filled, but unlike me, they have no facts to back up their views, other than the fact That the Christian church also opposes homosexual "marriage"

The issue for them is ideological   "liberalism" good, "social conservatism" bad. The irony is, that these people are in reality the very antithesis of liberal.....they are the foetus from which Fascism grows.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat - changes in style and profile
From: TheSnail
Date: 07 May 15 - 03:33 PM

That's Musket for you. Don't bother addressing what I actually said, just go for the smear campaign.

Spleen, do you still think I'm a folk Stalinist?


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Subject: RE: Mudcat - changes in style and profile
From: Joe Offer
Date: 07 May 15 - 03:25 PM

I learned how to make one of those "thumbs up" things last week, but now I've forgotten how to do it. Anyhow, there ought to be a "thumbs up" for this post (click) from Spleen Cringe.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: Mudcat - changes in style and profile
From: Joe Offer
Date: 07 May 15 - 03:13 PM

There's a mindset here that I've been trying to understand for years.
In a post at 5:19 AM above, Steve Shaw says, apparently to SRS:
    Since you posted your long post, two of the nastiest people here have continued to post, one bleating about being badly done to and the other pretending to support you. Believe me, he doesn't.
According to my mindset, I would say the two nastiest persons posting to this thread are Musket and Steve Shaw; but I suppose that Steve is referring to akenaton and Keith A of Hertford, or maybe Pete from Seven Stars Link. Ake and Keith and Pete have often expressed ideas I disagree with, but they have always, always expressed their ideas in a civilized manner. Musket and Steve, on the other hand, go self-righteously ballistic every time one of the three opens his mouth. The conduct of Musket and Steve and some others is combative, and therefore problematic to Mudcat; while the conduct of the conservatives is not - even though not a single one of the moderators agrees with the basic philosophies of akenaton, Keith A., and Pete from 7 Stars.

Maybe this is an American-British cultural difference. Even the more gentle Brits here seem to express alarm at what we Americans see as normal conservative bullshit. And Ake and Keith and Pete are far more civilized and polite than are our "Tea Party Patriots" that keep threatening to take over the US in order to save it.

I guess the crucial issue here is LGBT rights. It's my understanding that no country on earth permitted gay marriage until 2002, when I think it was the Netherlands that legalized it. Since 2002, gay marriage has become legal in the majority of the 50 united states, and the Supreme Court may legalize it in the entire nation in a few months. That's an amazingly quick change for the US, so we supporters of LBGT rights are pleased. We have no reason to go ballistic over criticism of gay marriage, because we see that criticism changing into acceptance so quickly.

But the British mindset seems to be different. Brits seem to get more upset about opposing political ideas than Americans do, and many Brits seems to think those opposing ideas must be suppressed - that Mudcat has some sort of obligation to delete all comments that question the rights of homosexuals. Americans may not like what other people say, but they are generally appalled at the idea of suppressing what others say.

So, there's a difference. And it's very difficult to know how to deal with that difference. And while I tend to like Musket and Steve Shaw and Dave the Gnome and others, I just can't understand their perspective on this.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: Mudcat - changes in style and profile
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 07 May 15 - 03:01 PM

"Much as I hate to say it..."

Snailie, where did the love go?


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Subject: RE: Mudcat - changes in style and profile
From: TheSnail
Date: 07 May 15 - 01:21 PM

Much as I hate to say, I have to agree with Spleen Cringe. The multi-headed Musket and various others have full possesion of the moral high ground. They have right on their side. They represent worthy values and common decency. With no concern for their personal safety, they take on the forces of bigotry, prejudice and superstition.... and lose.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat - changes in style and profile
From: olddude
Date: 07 May 15 - 01:12 PM

Religious people who really are religious accept all people, others use religion for political gain. We are supposed to not judge others. Some don't get that I guess


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Subject: RE: Mudcat - changes in style and profile
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 May 15 - 12:56 PM

Errrmmm, could we have that again in English please, Pete?


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Subject: RE: Mudcat - changes in style and profile
From: GUEST,Pete from seven stars link
Date: 07 May 15 - 12:47 PM

I let it go first time, perhaps someone else might point out their error. I was not making the loins that it is a choice, but should it be chosen , they would not be vilified for making a choice by those who consider it fair game to do the same to believers choice


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Subject: RE: Mudcat - changes in style and profile
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 07 May 15 - 12:27 PM

Rick also started some of the best food discussions seen anywhere on the Interwebs. If you can't beat them, feed them! :)


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Subject: RE: Mudcat - changes in style and profile
From: Amos
Date: 07 May 15 - 12:13 PM

The fact that so much steam has been channeled into questions of who wins and who loses a discussion is prima facie evidence that the participants are unduly preoccupied with being right by making others wrong. This is very primitive logic, indeed--a sort of semantic brutishness that is both ineffective and unbecoming.

I recommend a close study of the posts of the late Rick Fielding and an emulation of his spirit of good-hearted conversation as a substitute for small-minded quibbles and efforts to dominate, which are a glaring waste of time.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat - changes in style and profile
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 07 May 15 - 12:04 PM

A handful of old men with fairly shit views repeatedly taken to task on folk music forum. A major victory for gay rights

by our political correspondent

The battle against homophobia has taken a massive step forward today. Gay rights activists were thrilled and delighted to learn that a small handful of geographically seperated elderly men from the UK, posting on the general discussion section of an American folk music forum, have been repeated and emphatically told their views are wrong in the strongest possible terms. On conditions of strict anonymity, we were able to speak to one, or possibly three, of the organisers of the campaign, who would only answer to the name of "Musket".

"We consider that our campaign of vilification has been a resounding success," Musket enthused."None of the old men involved has actually changed their minds about anything, but that's hardly the point. It's as much about the thrill of the chase as the actual point of climax. We have also been able to resoundingly demonstrate that if you throw your weight around on these issues with the social graces of a water buffalo who has has spent the past decade grazing on nothing but high grade peyote, you too can completely alienate even the staunchest of your allies. That's the sort of moral triumph that gives us cause for celebration."

When asked about the rationale for the campaign, the Muskets retorted, "We believe these pensioners are breaking the law. However putting this to the test by reporting our concerns to the police is frankly not a lot of fun. Why do that when you can not only take repeatedly the moral high ground, but give it such a a thorough thrashing it end up looking like a Tory cabinet minister's arse?"

Pausing only to enquire as to whether your correspondent's wife "took it up the arse," the resplendent trio marched dewey-eyed back towards the battlefield for the next skirmish in this most important of struggles.

Unfortunately none of the subjects of Musket's brave campaign were available for comment. A source close to Mudcat suggested they were otherwise engaged in nurturing a symbiotic yet strangely sexless relationship with the various Muskets. "Love may yet be in the air," the source mysteriously commented.

Meanwhile, police spokespeople in London, Manchester and other cities reported a significant recent rise in violent homophobic attacks. When asked why the splendid campaign waged by the Muskets had failed to reverse this worrying trend, they declined to comment.

Excellent reporting! --mudelf


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Subject: RE: Mudcat - changes in style and profile
From: olddude
Date: 07 May 15 - 11:54 AM

Here is an easy suggestion, start your own website and fight with whoever you want to. Frankly if I owned mudcat, I probably would shut it down


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