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Obit: Pete Seeger (1919-2014)

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Elmore 09 Jun 15 - 04:13 PM
GUEST 09 Jun 15 - 10:18 AM
Stilly River Sage 17 Jul 14 - 06:04 PM
Sandra in Sydney 14 Jul 14 - 08:37 PM
Stilly River Sage 14 Jul 14 - 12:21 PM
LadyJean 05 Jun 14 - 01:10 AM
Joe Offer 04 Jun 14 - 03:17 PM
gnu 04 Jun 14 - 03:14 PM
Jim Carroll 02 May 14 - 02:08 AM
Joe Offer 01 May 14 - 08:53 PM
Joe Offer 01 May 14 - 03:30 PM
GUEST,# 01 May 14 - 12:17 PM
GUEST,# 01 May 14 - 09:28 AM
GUEST,# 01 May 14 - 08:56 AM
The Sandman 01 May 14 - 08:25 AM
The Sandman 01 May 14 - 04:12 AM
Jim Carroll 01 May 14 - 03:15 AM
Big Mick 30 Apr 14 - 09:52 PM
Joe Offer 30 Apr 14 - 07:25 PM
Stilly River Sage 30 Apr 14 - 06:43 PM
Stringsinger 30 Apr 14 - 06:42 PM
The Sandman 30 Apr 14 - 06:23 PM
Joe Offer 30 Apr 14 - 05:39 PM
The Sandman 30 Apr 14 - 05:24 PM
Thomas Stern 30 Apr 14 - 04:57 PM
Joe Offer 30 Apr 14 - 02:21 PM
Jeri 30 Apr 14 - 02:10 PM
The Sandman 30 Apr 14 - 12:51 PM
The Sandman 30 Apr 14 - 11:56 AM
Big Mick 30 Apr 14 - 10:23 AM
The Sandman 30 Apr 14 - 04:29 AM
Jim Carroll 30 Apr 14 - 03:47 AM
Joe Offer 30 Apr 14 - 03:24 AM
Jim Carroll 30 Apr 14 - 02:22 AM
Stilly River Sage 30 Apr 14 - 01:25 AM
GUEST,Gerry 29 Apr 14 - 09:34 PM
Jeri 29 Apr 14 - 09:00 PM
Joe Offer 29 Apr 14 - 08:27 PM
Bill D 29 Apr 14 - 08:11 PM
Big Mick 29 Apr 14 - 07:13 PM
Bill D 29 Apr 14 - 06:52 PM
The Sandman 29 Apr 14 - 05:31 PM
The Sandman 29 Apr 14 - 05:21 PM
Jim Carroll 29 Apr 14 - 05:20 PM
Stilly River Sage 29 Apr 14 - 11:47 AM
Stringsinger 29 Apr 14 - 11:32 AM
Jeri 29 Apr 14 - 11:28 AM
Big Mick 29 Apr 14 - 11:00 AM
Jim Carroll 29 Apr 14 - 03:52 AM
Joe Offer 29 Apr 14 - 03:01 AM
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Subject: RE: Obit: Pete Seeger (1919-2014)
From: Elmore
Date: 09 Jun 15 - 04:13 PM

Guest: Although I think I agree with you I'm not sure that I find having a debate on a post headed "Obit" is appropriate. I miss Pete's presence on the planet. As Dick Cavett said when asked to comment on the death of his colleague, David Frost, "Why is it never Cheney?"


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Subject: RE: Obit: Pete Seeger (1919-2014)
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Jun 15 - 10:18 AM

Yes, Pete can be described as a "useful idiot", but he isn't to blame for that. Everyone in Tian'anmen Square on June 4th, 1989 is a useful idiot. Back in the 60's and 70's China, primarily everybody is a useful idiot, Mao himself included. And those who stood against them all get killed - President Liu Shao-Tchi, Defense Minister Peng Te-huai - and now we call them "useless wise men".


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Subject: RE: Obit: Pete Seeger (1919-2014)
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 06:04 PM

http://www.prlog.org/12349678-limited-time-discount-offer-on-critically-acclaimed-pete-seeger-biography.html


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Subject: RE: Obit: Pete Seeger (1919-2014)
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 08:37 PM

New York is having a week of commemorations, wish I could get there!

Here in Sydney we're having a concert at 3pm on Sat 27th at the Friend in Hand pub at Glebe to remember him on the 6 month anniversary of his death.

sandra


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Subject: RE: Obit: Pete Seeger (1919-2014)
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 12:21 PM

http://www.nydailynews.com/entertainment/music/seeger-fest-folk-legend-modest-revealed-article-1.1865542

Information is released about Pete's will and his estate.

"Money was not his moving force," Port said of Seeger, who was known to perform for free before labor rallies and who gave away copyrights to his most popular songs.

Seeger and his wife, Toshi, built their own log cabin in the woods in 1949. The house and its 30-acre heavily wooded lot have an official assessed value of $788,200. Toshi Seeger died in 2013.

"He made the salary of a construction worker. He was comfortable, owned his own home, drove a 2002 Subaru," Cahill-Jackson said.

Seeger also bequeathed musical instruments to his heirs — and each instrument tells a story . . .

Follow the link to read the rest.

SRS


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Subject: RE: Obit: Pete Seeger (1919-2014)
From: LadyJean
Date: 05 Jun 14 - 01:10 AM

to put this in perspective, have a look at some of the movies made between 1942 and 1945, when the U.S.S.R. was our ally. My father, a veteran of that conflict, would, once in a while, speak well of "Old Joe" Stalin. Dad was a staunch Republican. I think he may have voted for Nixon more than once. (But he liked Pete Seeger's music.) Things are rarely black and white. They are usually more complicated.

And I would give a lot to be at one of those July Fourth Concerts again.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Pete Seeger (1919-2014)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 04 Jun 14 - 03:17 PM

I got my issue of Sing Out! Magazine this week. It was a lovely tribute to Pete Seeger.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: Obit: Pete Seeger (1919-2014)
From: gnu
Date: 04 Jun 14 - 03:14 PM

Park named.

http://wigwameconomy.com/riverfront-park-renamed-for-pete-and-toshi/


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Subject: RE: Obit: Pete Seeger (1919-2014)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 May 14 - 02:08 AM

"I'll agree that it's tripe, but it's interesting tripe."
Ah - the John Birch Society - that certainly is a trip back to La-La Land.
It is indeed interesting tripe.
We still have a leaflet here in our collection advertising a concert The Singers Club was involved in to raise money for the 'Keep Pete out of Jail' campaign.
Good days!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Obit: Pete Seeger (1919-2014)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 01 May 14 - 08:53 PM

Here's an interesting-looking Website I came across:

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Subject: RE: Obit: Pete Seeger (1919-2014)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 01 May 14 - 03:30 PM

"This tripe" that # refers to, is the Pete Seeger entry in the Biographical Dictionary of the Left, by Francis X. Gannon.

When I was in the U.S. Army in Berlin, some sergeant tried to recruit me as a member of the John Birch Society. He gave me a copy of two volumes of this "Biographical Dictionary," and I still have it. It's a great reference to find out all the supposed misdeeds of my heroes. I'm sure the sergeant expect me to have disdain for all the people listed in his dictionary, but it had just the opposite effect on me.

I'll agree that it's tripe, but it's interesting tripe.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: Obit: Pete Seeger (1919-2014)
From: GUEST,#
Date: 01 May 14 - 12:17 PM

Many thanks :-)


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Subject: RE: Obit: Pete Seeger (1919-2014)
From: GUEST,#
Date: 01 May 14 - 09:28 AM

MODS:

I received a message from Mr Google that the site I just linked to is 'untrustworthy' and then it blocked something. If a mod could remove that post I would very much appreciate it. Sorry.
I changed the link to go to the site from which Google cached the 1969 article. The problem might be with the Google cache. If the page at 'peteseeger.net' still causes problems, please say so. -Mod


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Subject: RE: Obit: Pete Seeger (1919-2014)
From: GUEST,#
Date: 01 May 14 - 08:56 AM

Then of course there is this tripe.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Pete Seeger (1919-2014)
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 May 14 - 08:25 AM

PETE SEEGER BRINGING PEOPLE TOGETHER THROUGH MUSIC.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nDw83Tztpjg


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Subject: RE: Obit: Pete Seeger (1919-2014)
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 May 14 - 04:12 AM

It seems Dick 'protesteth too much' when it comes to "speaking ill of the dead" - he hasn't been backward in coming forward when it comes to giving his somewhat ill-informed opinions on MacColl in the past; nor have far too many other people.
I have consistently praised MacColl as a performer and song writer,all the posts can be found on this forum, I have also defended MacColls right to have a stage name, how are these opinions ill informed?


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Subject: RE: Obit: Pete Seeger (1919-2014)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 May 14 - 03:15 AM

This thread - like the Russian Revolution, seems to be getting bogged down in CULT OF PERSONALITY - another useful phrase to look up
It seems Dick 'protesteth too much' when it comes to "speaking ill of the dead" - he hasn't been backward in coming forward when it comes to giving his somewhat ill-informed opinions on MacColl in the past; nor have far too many other people.
Sure - let's talk about whether they were taken in by Stalin, or whether they were "elitist" or "arrogant", or "rude to people"..... or all the other personal (and in my experience, often highly inaccurate) things still being leveled at MacColl a quarter of a century after his demise - but not at the cost of discussion on their work, and the contribution they made to our music and our understanding of it - and what their efforts left behind.
Sometime this month, we hope (grant willing) to embark on two, hour-long radio programmes for Irish radio on the work of Ewan MacColl.
When we started gathering material together for the grant application, we realised that there is so much of it that has never been touched, so many aspects of the man's work that remains totally unexplored, that the problem was going to be in deciding what to exclude - there is far too much to use even to scratch the surface of the work he did, let alone, give a fair picture in what he covered in the field of folk song - in in the two hours we hope to have at our disposal.
This type of work should have happened while MacColl was living - as Peggy once said, "while he was still around to speak for himself" - to articulate and defend his own ideas.
Twenty-odd years after his death, it is still impossible to discuss MacColl's work without having first to scramble over the mountain of garbage that has been built - sometimes deliberately - around the man and his work.
It is this type of small-minded 'grave dancing' that has belittled the folk song movement and kept it in its adolescence - it really is time we allowed it to grow up and make its own way in the world.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Obit: Pete Seeger (1919-2014)
From: Big Mick
Date: 30 Apr 14 - 09:52 PM

I am not sure,where folks,got the idea that speaking ill of a dead public figure is taboo. Just as Frank has the right to state his opinion of Pete, one in which I mostly agree with, so garg has the right to give his opinion on the same public figure.

Dick Miles, criticizing the subject of a thread is not a personal attack. Criticizing, using ad hominem attacks is. Methinks you are splitting hairs and projecting a bit. If you read Joe's post carefully, and pay attention to the distinctions, you will understand the difference between criticism and personal attack.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Pete Seeger (1919-2014)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 30 Apr 14 - 07:25 PM

Stringsinger and Good Soldier Schweik, do yourselves a favor and follow the link to the Wikipedia article on "useful idiot" and the history behind the term. Fellow Traveller is a term that has a parallel history, as does "Communist Dupe."

And yes, Frank, I think it's quite certain that Pope Pius XII was a "useful idiot" of Mussolini, and not all the horrible things people have accused him of. Thank you for that.

These were good, intelligent, capable people. No, they weren't idiots. I think, however, that they may have been blinded by their own innocence and idealism. Their failure, perhaps, was to trust too much and to believe too much in their fellow man. They failed to be cynical, and I think we need more of that kind of failure in this world.

-Joe-
    Yes, Good Soldier Schweik, you are allowed to disagree with me....and I am allowed to disagree back. Despite your protestations to the contrary, you sound both outraged and indignant, and it's getting in the way of a sensible discussion. Get over it.

    And yes, Frank, pointing a finger points three fingers back. I think of myself as the same sort of idealist as Pete Seeger, Ewan MacColl, and Pius XII. You can call me a "useful idiot" at times, and it's a badge I'll wear with pride. Idealism may be unrealistic, but it's a hell of a lot better than the alternative.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Pete Seeger (1919-2014)
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 30 Apr 14 - 06:43 PM

Funny that I should be considered the one who doesn't want to "speak ill of the dead" - this seemed to be a policy, it's something I picked up as a general trend at Mudcat. I thought you (Joe) favored back in the early years, and that members in general preferred it. Because of that perception I have on rare occasions tried to sort it out, letting criticism go into other related threads and the business of posting memories, obituary links and funeral information in the obit - the thread that outsiders are most likely going to land on when they use Google to look for a recently deceased musician.

There was hell to pay the last time this came up, a lot of folks coming in from all over creation deciding the take swings and sides and seemingly had no business here except to be nasty, as far as I could tell.

You guys sort it out. It's apparently above my pay grade.

SRS


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Subject: RE: Obit: Pete Seeger (1919-2014)
From: Stringsinger
Date: 30 Apr 14 - 06:42 PM

I don't think that it's as simple as that, Joe. I've known Pete for over forty years and he was not used by anyone, but was a clear thinker who might have gotten the Stalin thing wrong but was his own person, not subject to the Kremlin or any other monolithic country or group.
Pete left the Party and never returned.

Be very careful about whom you brand as being a "useful idiot". A pointed finger has three pointing back at you.

Would perhaps the term "useful idiot" be applied to Pope Pius XII? Just sayin'..........


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Subject: RE: Obit: Pete Seeger (1919-2014)
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Apr 14 - 06:23 PM

JOE, What is all this" GET OVER IT",
am I not allowed to disagree with you?, neither have I indigantly responded to anything,I pointed out that both capitalists and so called "communists have murdered millions, for example Adolf Hitler a fascist who was virulently anti communist, likewise the dear old USA a non communist country.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Pete Seeger (1919-2014)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 30 Apr 14 - 05:39 PM

Dick Miles, as Thomas Stern aptly pointed out, the term "useful idiot" has a history behind it, and it is EXACTLY the correct term to describe Seeger, MacColl, and Americans and Europeans who were used by the Stalinists.

Yes, it is insulting - but it is the proper term....and I already stipulated that the comments from Gargoyle were "crude and insensitive and disrespectful."

So get over it.

-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: Obit: Pete Seeger (1919-2014)
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Apr 14 - 05:24 PM

Joe, my comments were not outraged, I pointed out the lack of balance in Gargoyles comment. speaking ill of the dead a taboo?, no, to call Seeger an idiot is an insult, JOE,Answer this question is it n insult to call PeteSeeger an Idiot, it is irrelevant whether he is dead or alive. answer the question


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Subject: RE: Obit: Pete Seeger (1919-2014)
From: Thomas Stern
Date: 30 Apr 14 - 04:57 PM

"useful idiot" see WIKIPEDIA:
Cheers, Thomas.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Pete Seeger (1919-2014)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 30 Apr 14 - 02:21 PM

The problem isn't trolls, Dick Miles, it's the people who indignantly respond to trolls. What Gargoyle said, be it disrespectful or not, generated an interesting discussion on Pete Seeger and Stalinism. Outraged comments like yours add nothing to the discussion.
Once this discussion of Seeger and Stalinism has run its course, I may move the Stalinism messages into a new thread if it seems good to do so, but for now I think it's best to let the discussion go on without the outrage.

It is duly noted that the comments from Gargoyle were crude and insensitive and disrespectful. But an interesting discussion came out of his comments, so gargoyle's message will stand as it is.

In a discussion forum like this, the discussion is far more important than being beholden to taboos about not speaking ill of the dead.

-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: Obit: Pete Seeger (1919-2014)
From: Jeri
Date: 30 Apr 14 - 02:10 PM

Personal abuse is personal, and is directed at someone who's expected to read it. I've heard Max say nothing about trolling/flaming. The problem is we've got a bunch of very easily led, inconsiderate people who'd rather have a knee-jerk reaction to what they object to than to stick to a particular subject.
Case #1: Pete Seeger and Stalin.
Case #2: what should/should not be deleted.

Enough people lack the ability to see the negative purpose their indignant posts will serve and just not respond.

One problem here is that we have a number of people who form a ready-made group of troll followers/feeders. You remove a trolling message, the trollerazzi just wait for the next one to poke them with the indignant stick. Just learn how to stop or at least start a different thread.

Nobody wants to be sentenced to making the world safe for easily provoked people with poor impulse control.

Last from me on this thread.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Pete Seeger (1919-2014)
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Apr 14 - 12:51 PM

it is not respectful to call Pete Seeger an idiot.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Pete Seeger (1919-2014)
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Apr 14 - 11:56 AM

BIG MICK,I always understood the purpose of moderators was to stop personal abuse trolling and flaming.
"Yes, Seeger was a useful idiot". is that not trolling and insulting the dead?


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Subject: RE: Obit: Pete Seeger (1919-2014)
From: Big Mick
Date: 30 Apr 14 - 10:23 AM

If gargoyle had not posted his comments we would likely have not had the very insightful and informative comments by Frank Hamilton and Jim Carroll. It was their defense of our friend, Pete that made some very important distinctions. My opinion is that it is not our job to control debate, rather it is our job to maintain the very spare rules Max has given us. Now, back to Pete.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Pete Seeger (1919-2014)
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Apr 14 - 04:29 AM

in my opinion, PETE SEEGER was a great ambassador for home made music, He was also a good entertainer and performer, personally I feel the uk revival has lacked someone of Seegers calibre. There have been some very good singers and performers,Seeger was a diplomat as well as a charismatic performer.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Pete Seeger (1919-2014)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Apr 14 - 03:47 AM

I agree Joe
MacColl never hid his politics - in fact he 'wore it on his sleeve' - it was evident in the songs he wrote and it made him many enemies.
His politics, as with Pete's and all those of the left, was humanitarian based, and we spent many hours in the Critics Group discussing the political/social nature of traditional song.
The problem wasn't, with him, or anybody who worked with him, not in discussing politics, but in those who would prevent such discussion.
I've seen singers who have been booked to perform at clubs, specifically told, "We don't like political songs here" - sometimes extending the restriction to "contemporary" - or even "accompanied" songs.
I know the problems Ewan and Peggy had in putting together the album of political songs, 'The Angry Muse' for Argo (Decca) - those problems disappeared when they set up their own 'Blackthorn' label, and they could choose what they wanted, without restrictions.
Charles Parker always claimed that the BBC's decision not to make any more radio ballads following 'The Travelling People' was not, as they claimed, financial, but was due to the socio-political nature of their contents.
I simply can't understand why Pete's gentle humanitarianism should be a feature in any of this nonsense.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Obit: Pete Seeger (1919-2014)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 30 Apr 14 - 03:24 AM

Still, the fact that Seeger, MacColl, and others supported Stalin, is certainly a matter worthy of discussion. To my way of thinking, the facts are the facts, and shouldn't be withheld from an obituary.

I think no less of Seeger and MacColl because they were Communists, at least for part of their lives. I think it's proof of their idealism - and their ability to think "outside the box," if you will.

I spent my three years of military service studying East German Communists; and I developed a real respect for them, despite their Wall and other security procedures. Communism may be a failed ideal, but we have much to learn from this often-noble experiment.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: Obit: Pete Seeger (1919-2014)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Apr 14 - 02:22 AM

I think SRS is right.
It would be wrong to allow Stalin's crimes to act as a diversion in honouring those who were take in by what he did - it would mean our ignoring the contribution of millions upon millions of people who have enriched our lives in one way or another.
What - don't read the writings of John Steinbeck, Howard Fast, Upton Sinclair; don't visit The Globe Theatre because it was set up by Sam Wannamaker; or watch plays by Brecht, or never go to see a Charlie Chaplin film, and so ad ifinitum..... give us a break?
This nonsense has to end somewhere.
I have been trying for years to promote discussion on the work we did in MacColl's Critics Group - each time, up pops a 'Gargoyle' with a diversion.
Maybe those of us whose lives were touched by the withering hand of Thatcher, should boycott anybody who voted for her - don't think so really!
People who adopt this attitude invariably bring along another agenda, more often than not to do with the music rather than the politics.
Please don't let this happen to fine artist like Pete Seeger; whatever our feelings on his music, he was a great 'human' human being in every sense of the word.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Obit: Pete Seeger (1919-2014)
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 30 Apr 14 - 01:25 AM

Another side-trip for this Obituary thread - trying to keep obit threads relatively respectful and letting the controversy be hashed out in another location. I know Joe doesn't always agree with me on that, or thinks I put too fine a point on it. But that is what I had in mind when I read Gargoyle's remarks, and this is all I have to say about it.

SRS


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Subject: RE: Obit: Pete Seeger (1919-2014)
From: GUEST,Gerry
Date: 29 Apr 14 - 09:34 PM

Joe Offer, for what was widely known about Stalin long before 1962, see Andre Gide's 1936 book, Retour de l'U. R. S. S., also the 1949 book The God That Failed, edited by Richard Crossman. Also, Arthur Koestler's Darkness at Noon, 1940.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Pete Seeger (1919-2014)
From: Jeri
Date: 29 Apr 14 - 09:00 PM

When I refer to the culture of Mudcat now being about trollery, this thread has become an example of that. Give up all the good to follow the troll...


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Subject: RE: Obit: Pete Seeger (1919-2014)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 29 Apr 14 - 08:27 PM

I wonder what was widely known about the gulags and pogroms during the lifetime of Stalin. Until Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn's One Day in the Life of Ivan Denisovich was published in 1962, the atrocities of the Stalin Regime were not known in detail, and much of the condemnation of Stalin and the Soviets sounded a whole lot like anti-Communist propaganda.

If the loudest voice condemning Joe Stalin was Joe McCarthy, wouldn't you take all such condemnations with a grain of salt?

And there were no voices within the Soviet Union to condemn Stalin - they were all suppressed.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: Obit: Pete Seeger (1919-2014)
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Apr 14 - 08:11 PM

To add to my comment, and make a wider point: pointing to "communism" as a defining issue of what a person is or has promoted is not enough. It is important to be aware of HOW that person sees & uses the term.

Today, Republicans still 'claim' Abraham Lincoln as a proof that their party 'did the right thing' and is one right side of history, when the fact is that the parties have almost entirely changed positions since the Civil War. When the Dixiecrats rebelled against LBJ in 1965-68, the words changed basic reference.

   You might as well judge people by whether they claim to favor 'freedom'.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Pete Seeger (1919-2014)
From: Big Mick
Date: 29 Apr 14 - 07:13 PM

SRS, the fact that Gargoyle has been deleted is not relevant to my comment. The rules we use are spare and simple to understand. Applied evenly they will work well. You may not use personal attacks. You may attack viewpoints with all the vigor and bombast within you. If,garg, or anyone else crosses the line, they are deleted. His post attacked no one. The fact that he has in the past crossed the line is not relevant.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Pete Seeger (1919-2014)
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Apr 14 - 06:52 PM

"If he was such a demon, why did he hold power for so long?"

Oh my, Joe... it's a matter of record how he obtained and held power. I find it hard to believe that you really wonder about that.

Pete Seeger did espouse 'communism' early on in the sense it is accurately explained . He did not and would not agree with Marxism/Leninism as practiced in its perverted form by Stalin.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Pete Seeger (1919-2014)
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Apr 14 - 05:31 PM

"Enough already!

This thread needs a little balance:
He also celebrated a form of government that was responsible for the execution of tens of millions of innocent people and tortured e" so Mr Gargoyle, how about the millions of innocent people murdered by different capitalists, Gargoyle, your remarks are not balanced at all, millions of people have been murdered by both capitalists and communists.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Pete Seeger (1919-2014)
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Apr 14 - 05:21 PM

Gargoyles remarks show that he does not understand the economics of the consumer capitalist society.
"Pete Seeger was the champion of left-wing socialism which does nothing but keep the poor downtrodden and on the government dole. It probably would have been a good thing if Peter Seeger really had to work at a 40-hr a week job and learn something about capitalism"
the government dole, is an indirect way of subsidising local capitalism[small businesses such as local shops and pubs] Gargoyle have you ever heard of Keynsian economics? Keynsian econmics has nothing to do with communism.
Gargoyl your post has displayed your ignorance of the consumer society and how capitalism works efficiently.
to paraphrase Martin Carthy" who is this berk.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Pete Seeger (1919-2014)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Apr 14 - 05:20 PM

Pete was one of many - including arguably, on of America's finest writers, John Steinbeck, who visited Russia at the height of Stalin's power and came back with glowing reports of what was happening there.
It needs to be remembered that Senator Joe McCarthy was putting anybody left of centre on trial for being 'Un- American' - including Seeger
This also included imprisoning those who refused to grass up their friends.
I met Pete once in Ewan and Peggy's home, and was proud to have shaken his hand - not a sign of blood anywhere that I could see.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Obit: Pete Seeger (1919-2014)
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 29 Apr 14 - 11:47 AM

Those of us who have listened to Pete Seeger's words about his participation in those days may be accepting the story as he wants to tell it, but I haven't come across any information about his actual support of Stalin, or anything that discusses how long such support did extend once he was aware of Stalin's activities as far as murdering his own people. I respect Frank's opinion and was responding to that when I made my remarks. Gargoyle is routinely deleted, usually in the BS threads, but lets not pretend that his tendency for bombast and overt crudeness has never been removed from music threads as well.

SRS


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Subject: RE: Obit: Pete Seeger (1919-2014)
From: Stringsinger
Date: 29 Apr 14 - 11:32 AM

Russia has always supported an authoritarian government traditionally and Stalin just replaced the Tsar.

Pete has apologized many times for his naiveté regarding Stalin, and it should be remembered that the United States supported Hitler at his inception and that the Graf Zepplin flew over our country with swastikas on display.

You ask how could people support Stalin and yet here in the US, we supported Stalin without reservation during the Yalta talks and "Uncle Joe" was considered an ally. It's amazing how soon we forget history.

I'm glad that Gargoyle expressed his viewpoint because I think it can be answered rationally.

The US has a history of supporting dictators, as FDR called them "our bastards".

I see the American people as essentially naive when it comes to this issue and it's so easy
to accuse someone of not being consistent in their lifetime.

Remember that Pete and Ewan were reacting to the invasion of the USSR by the Nazis
and this may have clouded their judgement about Stalin.

What this brings into focus for me is the futility of military actions as we see contemporary Hitlers and Stalins in our recent history in Asia and the Mid-East.

Not only did the 1917 revolution bring about improvements in feudalist Russia but the Communist Party of the US brought about significant improved changes in Civil Rights, Unions, Women's suffrage and equality. Many of the CPUSA members and "fellow travelers" were completely naive about Stalin but this doesn't preclude the good work that they did.

I was never a member but I recall the Marxist rule, in this case, Groucho who said,
"I would never join any club that would have me as a member."


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Subject: RE: Obit: Pete Seeger (1919-2014)
From: Jeri
Date: 29 Apr 14 - 11:28 AM

I've certainly seen it discussed elsewhere, and can't find any valid reason for deleting it. Although I never met the man, I'm absolutely positive Pete would agree, having been a target of censors for stating inconvenient opinions... although he'd probably appreciate his name being spelled correctly consistently.

The Stalin thing is as far as some folks get when they don't want to look further.

From the NPR link posted way above:
"As early as 1941, they found themselves blacklisted. Seeger was a member of the Communist Party in those early days, though he later said he quit after coming to understand the evils of Stalin."
Most people are capable of recognizing their mistakes and learning from them. Some people, however, like basing their philosophies on obvious mistakes because they're comfortable, and so can't easily admit they were wrong. You either embrace and live with mistakes or embrace and live with stupid.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Pete Seeger (1919-2014)
From: Big Mick
Date: 29 Apr 14 - 11:00 AM

Any moderator that would delete Gargoyle's comments would be doing so,without cause, and IMHO, in breach of their duties as mods. He attacked no one personally and simply expressed his point of view on Pete's activities. Like Joe, I find merit in some of it, disagree with most of it. Like Frank and Jim, I think it demonstrates a lack of understanding of the times. But it is nothing more than his opinion, and he expressed it well and without attacking anyone personally. So respond well as Frank and Jim did, but don't even consider deletion.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Pete Seeger (1919-2014)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Apr 14 - 03:52 AM

"both Seeger and MacColl supported Stalin without reservation."
Not just them - their generation of social improvers and those of the left were brought up to idolise Stalin - members of my family included.
I know of people who wept when they learned of his death.
The Russian Revolution was seen as a workers revolution and the new Soviet State was regarded as the first Workers State.
Intellectuals like economists like Sidney and Beatrice Webb wrote huge tomes in praise of Stalinist Russia, with books like 'Soviet Communism, A New Civilization'.
The Dean of Canterbury, Hewlett Johnson wrote 'The Socialist Sixth of the World', an extremely popular work praising what was happening in Stalinist Russia.
Reports of what was happening in Russia were either regarded as "breaking eggs to make an omelette" or simply as propaganda.
It wasn't until Khrushchev's speech to Congress in 1956 that the cracks in Stalinist adoration began to appear, and even then it took time to sink in.
There is no doubt that the 1917 revolution brought about massive improvements in feudalist Russia - it's often forgotten that writers such as Tolstoy were writing about "Stalin's Gulags" in the 19th century, only in those days they were Tsarist.
It's always easy to be smug in hindsight.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Obit: Pete Seeger (1919-2014)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 29 Apr 14 - 03:01 AM

Gargoyle makes a valid point, and it would be a shame if his remarks were to be deleted. It's absolutely true that Pete Seeger was a communist, and that he supported Stalin. So did MacColl. It's wrong to whitewash this - both Seeger and MacColl supported Stalin without reservation.

We in the West have been brought up to demonize Stalin as a hateful dictator - but when we demonize people, we shut ourselves off from understanding what they were all about. Stalin was the leader of the Soviet Union from the 1920s until he died in 1953. If he was such a demon, why did he hold power for so long? Could it be that he actually accomplished many things that were a benefit to the citizens of the Soviet Union? Could it be that Seeger and MacColl had good reason to support Stalin?

The older I get, the more I begin to suspect that there really are no "bad guys." We all have our own truths and our own interests, and those truths and interests are often in conflict with those of other people. And most of the time, neither side is completely right or completely wrong. In fact, many times there is no right or wrong - only "different."

-Joe-


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