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BS: Can People Forgive?

Dorothy Parshall 02 Feb 14 - 05:08 PM
GUEST,Eliza 02 Feb 14 - 11:50 AM
kendall 02 Feb 14 - 09:38 AM
Dorothy Parshall 01 Feb 14 - 04:03 PM
GUEST,Mary Brennan 01 Feb 14 - 07:08 AM
Jack the Sailor 18 Jan 14 - 10:56 AM
akenaton 17 Jan 14 - 04:47 PM
Claire M 17 Jan 14 - 03:34 PM
GUEST,sciencegeek 17 Jan 14 - 12:16 PM
Jack the Sailor 17 Jan 14 - 11:49 AM
GUEST,sciencegeek 17 Jan 14 - 11:33 AM
GUEST,Musket 17 Jan 14 - 01:27 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 16 Jan 14 - 06:47 PM
Jack the Sailor 16 Jan 14 - 01:03 PM
GUEST,Eliza 16 Jan 14 - 09:35 AM
GUEST,Musket 16 Jan 14 - 05:07 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 16 Jan 14 - 05:01 AM
GUEST,Musket 16 Jan 14 - 04:48 AM
GUEST,Grishka 16 Jan 14 - 04:32 AM
Georgiansilver 16 Jan 14 - 04:02 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 16 Jan 14 - 12:04 AM
GUEST 15 Jan 14 - 07:50 PM
GUEST,Eliza 15 Jan 14 - 06:02 PM
Jack the Sailor 15 Jan 14 - 05:43 PM
GUEST 15 Jan 14 - 05:02 PM
The Sandman 15 Jan 14 - 04:41 PM
Larry The Radio Guy 15 Jan 14 - 04:39 PM
GUEST,Pete from seven stars link 15 Jan 14 - 04:28 PM
GUEST,Grishka 15 Jan 14 - 03:50 PM
GUEST,Eliza 15 Jan 14 - 01:41 PM
Jack the Sailor 15 Jan 14 - 12:45 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 15 Jan 14 - 09:15 AM
Janie 14 Jan 14 - 11:50 PM
GUEST,Grishka 14 Jan 14 - 07:06 PM
Ebbie 14 Jan 14 - 06:34 PM
GUEST,Ed T 14 Jan 14 - 05:40 PM
The Sandman 14 Jan 14 - 04:33 PM
GUEST,Eliza 14 Jan 14 - 02:14 PM
akenaton 14 Jan 14 - 01:25 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 14 Jan 14 - 12:49 PM
Jack the Sailor 14 Jan 14 - 09:58 AM
GUEST,Musket 14 Jan 14 - 07:12 AM
GUEST,kendall 14 Jan 14 - 07:06 AM
GUEST, Eb 14 Jan 14 - 01:40 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 14 Jan 14 - 12:01 AM
Amos 13 Jan 14 - 11:37 PM
JennieG 13 Jan 14 - 09:30 PM
Jack the Sailor 13 Jan 14 - 01:38 PM
McGrath of Harlow 13 Jan 14 - 01:17 PM
McGrath of Harlow 13 Jan 14 - 12:52 PM
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Subject: RE: BS: Can People Forgive?
From: Dorothy Parshall
Date: 02 Feb 14 - 05:08 PM

Lack of forgiveness only harms the person who cannot forgive and carries the burden of un-forgiving.


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Subject: RE: BS: Can People Forgive?
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 02 Feb 14 - 11:50 AM

I still feel that we can't have an opinion on whether someone else should forgive a person who has harmed them terribly. Or harmed their child, for example. It isn't for us to decide that. But for oneself, it's probably better to forgive, if one can. However, I'd still demand remorse or penitence. If the perpetrator isn't in the least sorry, then damn them!


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Subject: RE: BS: Can People Forgive?
From: kendall
Date: 02 Feb 14 - 09:38 AM

The person I mentioned broke my heart and cost me $200,000. I will never forget, but I can't let the resentment serve as a millstone around my neck forever.


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Subject: RE: BS: Can People Forgive?
From: Dorothy Parshall
Date: 01 Feb 14 - 04:03 PM

I know she will forgive. Could you?

GUEST COLUMN: Letter from a mother to a hit-and-run driver
Lila Hope-SimpsonPublished on December 09, 2013Share 837 13 Comment
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Lila Hope-Simpson.

Letter from a mother to a hit-and-run driver

Once, when my husband and I were driving along Highway 14, we spotted a turtle in the middle of the road. We pulled over and Ian gently picked up the turtle and carried him to a pond on a nearby farm. When I hit a low flying robin with my car one day, I drove back to check and see if it was okay and still breathing before driving off. To think an individual would drive a vehicle into my daughter, pinning her against an adjacent car and then leave her severely injured and alone lying on the ground, is incomprehensible to me.

I don't know you and you don't know me, but you have affected the lives of every member of our family enormously. After you fled, my daughter called out for help and was surrounded by caring people who contacted my husband and placed a 911 call for police and ambulance.

Since that night, she has had eight surgeries and has been hospitalized for over a month, and that is just the beginning of our long road to recovery. A few weeks ago, a reporter asked me what I would say to the assailant if I could speak directly with that person. I reflected for a moment and then shook my head blankly and said, "There are no words."

Now, some time has passed and I do have a few things I would like to say to you. You and I actually have more in common than you might think. We both have had major life altering decisions to make. Mine were medical choices that would affect my daughter's life. Your decision was based on whether to run away or offer assistance. Making choices is not easy for anyone, but I like to think weighing the consequences of one's actions plays a role in making those significant decisions. While you are at home sleeping at night, my daughter is woken up repeatedly in the hospital every night for blood work, IVs, pain medications, injections, vitals and nerve block checks. It's hard to get a good night's sleep in a hospital setting; I know because I have been sleeping in her room for over a month now.

You may take walking for granted, but we don't. It will be awhile until my girl can walk again, and never unaided. Has your life been turned upside-down? Our lives have. Things that used to be important to us are not any more, and things were not that important before, are more important now.

Neither my husband nor I have worked since the accident. We don't have time; we're too busy for now learning the ropes.

For many years, I wrote the Positive Parenting column for the newspaper and, although I confidently covered many topics relating to parenting, I never wrote about how to cope after a hit-and-run incident. This is all new territory for me. It feels like I have been dropped into a foreign country where I don't speak the language, I am not familiar with the culture, I have never eaten the food and I don't know the geography or road maps. I am kind of lost in this new territory, but experiential learning is teaching me to cope and I am slowly inching forward.

My daughter has risen far above this event. This incident does not define her. She is positive and beautiful. She is motivated and I am confident that she will do great things with her life. We are grateful that she is alive and thriving.

We have learned that, even though there was one person who committed an unspeakable act of cowardice, there are a thousand people who have proven to us that humankind is good. Anne Frank wrote in The Diary of a Young Girl, "In spite of everything I still believe that people are really good at heart." Although you chose to flee and hide, our friends and community have stood by us and supported us with compassion, love, kindness, music, art, wholesome meals, funds, yarn, caring and generosity of spirit.

Read about community efforts to help Tasha Hope-Simpson here.

Most people prefer that justice be done. My daughter has become every mother's daughter and that is why everyone genuinely cares so much.

My only prayer was wishing that it could be me instead of her lying in that hospital bed. I have shed many tears. So many tears that sometimes it feels like there are none left to weep.

Even though it was my daughter who was hit that night, I, too, have felt broken and shattered. But there has been laughter and peace too. We have learned how to embrace what we have and each other, and appreciate the world around us.

Tell me, do you ever think about that night? Does it affect your dreams? Do you wonder about the girl you hit and how she might be doing? Or is it easy for you to carry on and buy groceries and watch TV and go for coffee like everything is normal?

As a teacher, I always taught my preschoolers that there are consequences to actions. I taught them to take responsibility for their behaviour. I would urge you to take responsibility for your actions that night. Don't be afraid. Come forward. Somebody knows. Do the right thing and tell someone. Call the New Minas detachment of the RCMP and help them wrap up their investigation, 679-5555, or contact Nova Scotia Crime Stoppers, 1-800-222-TIPS (8477), for a cash reward.

Read more about the investigation here.

I know I'm supposed to feel better if I forgive you, but the truth is, sometimes I still feel angry that you caused so much pain. For now, I will go back and be there for my daughter and family, and I trust that the world is a kind and nurturing place. My daughter has taught me to find peace and with her courage and the support of friends and community. I am gradually learning to do so.

Knowing who you are would provide some closure for us. And you know what? I urge you to do this for yourself as well. After all, if we can look out for a turtle or a robin, it's not too late for you step up to the plate for one innocent girl.


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Subject: RE: BS: Can People Forgive?
From: GUEST,Mary Brennan
Date: 01 Feb 14 - 07:08 AM

It's a difficult one. I tend to forgive people and try not to bear grudges but I think I might find it difficult if someone had murdered or abused somebody I was close to.

I think it's best to at least try to forgive people, for your own sake. If you can't you end up bitter and twisted yourself and that's no way to live your life.

Perhaps that's what your vicar (and Jesus) meant?


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Subject: RE: BS: Can People Forgive?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 18 Jan 14 - 10:56 AM

I appreciate the kind thoughts Ake, nice of you to disregard all of the things you and I disagree on and focus on what you like. Its like you are putting the topic of this thread into action.


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Subject: RE: BS: Can People Forgive?
From: akenaton
Date: 17 Jan 14 - 04:47 PM

Nice to see the Christian people declare their beliefs....refreshing and openly stated.
This is what I mean about the difference between US and the majority of UK posters, we Brits who have "belief"( unfortunately I'm not one of them), seem so inhibited by the cynicism surrounding them that they are almost apologetic about their faith.

Jack, I thought your post in particular was great, full of emotion and lots of common sense regarding how to handle disagreements.
I know you will be surprised by this, but you have made quite an impression on me lately, showing a side of your character that I hadn't recognised.
The few cynical comments which have appeared on this thread, look quite out of place.


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Subject: RE: BS: Can People Forgive?
From: Claire M
Date: 17 Jan 14 - 03:34 PM

Hiya,

Hmm. Depends what they've done. I read a good # of angel books, this topic crops up loads.

I've been treated quite badly by nurses/carers who didn't know what they were doing & whose ♥s weren't in the job anyway – some were downright nasty – which makes me think *any* new person who looks after me will do the same, despite where I live now being very good :. this makes life quite difficult. I can't & don't want to forgive people like that.

I also knew someone who done me wrong quite a few times, & 1 of the less nasty things this person did was to throw my cds all over my college room while shouting in a drunken rage. The cds were fine, but that got me thinking; had they not been they wouldn't have been missed; which changed my whole life.

In 1 of said books, there was a description of 1 angel making prayers into garlands for God to wear on his head. It cracked me up; I imagined a Pratchetty character w/ flowers on his head. Well, they make me ☻, anyway.


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Subject: RE: BS: Can People Forgive?
From: GUEST,sciencegeek
Date: 17 Jan 14 - 12:16 PM

I agree that family seems to have quite a knack for "pushing buttons", but the link is just the entry into a number of related links and different perspectives, etc.

Like everything else in life, there is no single way to look at things or do things... unless you're judgemental... and then there IS only one way!!!!!!   .... P)... LOL


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Subject: RE: BS: Can People Forgive?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 17 Jan 14 - 11:49 AM

Sciencegeek.

I doubt that that set of seven "instructions" is applicable to most people. They seem to contradict each other. I cannot agree that it is ever a good idea to argue with the aunt you are not close to across the Christmas Dinner table.

But that is just my opinion. My family used to argue over dinner. I would simply not return myself into a situation where that could happen.


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Subject: RE: BS: Can People Forgive?
From: GUEST,sciencegeek
Date: 17 Jan 14 - 11:33 AM

"The most common misconception over the understanding of 'forgiveness' is that someone is being 'let off the hook' when they are forgiven. In fact they have not been let off but have to live with what they have done or said, that is of course assuming they have a conscience."

Indeed, the difference between forgivenes and absolution -the act of absolving or the state of being absolved; release from guilt, obligation, or punishment.

Then again, there is the very real issue of judgemental people and how they fit into the social equation. The link below gets you into a site that has a number of links, all dealing with how to deal with these difficult people. In the end, it is us how have to deal with them, because they are very unlikely to ever change.

http://www.ehow.com/how_2095872_deal-judgmental-people.html

As you may gather, judgemental folks are not into forgiveness by and large.


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Subject: RE: BS: Can People Forgive?
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 17 Jan 14 - 01:27 AM

I'll pray for you my son.


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Subject: RE: BS: Can People Forgive?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 16 Jan 14 - 06:47 PM

Actually, I've posted some rather insightful stuff on here....I only had to hold off for a moment while addressing your behavior!

...but I forgive you....and understand that the way you are is beyond your control...

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Can People Forgive?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 16 Jan 14 - 01:03 PM

>>>Goofus. <<<

>>>This is to date a rather serious thread, which Eliza asked for. A bit of light observation is one thing, but please, when you join in, bang goes the neighbourhood.

Have a sense of decorum eh? Take a leaf out of my exemplary book. <<

sigh....


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Subject: RE: BS: Can People Forgive?
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 16 Jan 14 - 09:35 AM

Georgiansilver, that was very well put, and explains it to me in a nutshell. I agree that being spiteful, spreading gossip and seeking revenge does one no good at all. And being 'hooked in' to a bitter, unforgiving attitude is harmful to oneself. I've been mulling over all that folk have posted here, and I think I could lead a Lenten group on the subject with all the ideas expressed by so many intelligent and enlightened posters. (I have led groups before during Lent.) Forgiveness, repentance and starting anew would make a super topic. I've been jotting down a few points already, with a view to having a structure for debate. And nobody has been insulting, unpleasant or abusive - HOORAY!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Can People Forgive?
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 16 Jan 14 - 05:07 AM

I don't have an ass. I have a few paddocks that I rent out to people with horses and even a couple of donkeys. If they ever meet up, I may be landlord to an ass though.

Goofus. This is to date a rather serious thread, which Eliza asked for. A bit of light observation is one thing, but please, when you join in, bang goes the neighbourhood.

Have a sense of decorum eh? Take a leaf out of my exemplary book.


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Subject: RE: BS: Can People Forgive?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 16 Jan 14 - 05:01 AM

I thought you put your head up only your own ass.....

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Can People Forgive?
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 16 Jan 14 - 04:48 AM

Where I come from, turning the other cheek is an act known elsewhere as mooning. I doubt it is an expression of love.....


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Subject: RE: BS: Can People Forgive?
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 16 Jan 14 - 04:32 AM

Ostentatiously turning the other cheek (martyr pose, "holier than thou") can be the exact opposite of loving one's enemy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Can People Forgive?
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 16 Jan 14 - 04:02 AM

The most common misconception over the understanding of 'forgiveness' is that someone is being 'let off the hook' when they are forgiven. In fact they have not been let off but have to live with what they have done or said, that is of course assuming they have a conscience.
There can be however a 'letting off the hook' for the one who forgives! If someone offends you in any way, you can deal with it in many ways such as revenge, spreading gossip about them, giving them a hard time each time you see them etc etc, which in fact allows them still to have a hold over you and your feelings. The alternative is to forgive.. or to give away any feelings of anger, resentment, need for revenge, pain, in favour of not letting those feelings have any hold over you or your emotions. In other words if you are unforgiving of a perpetrator, they still have a hold over you and your emotions. If you forgive, they can no longer have that hold because you have shed any resentment or anger


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Subject: RE: BS: Can People Forgive?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 16 Jan 14 - 12:04 AM

Somehow it seemed appropriate

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Can People Forgive?
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Jan 14 - 07:50 PM

Thank you, Eliza, and ditto that for sure from me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Can People Forgive?
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 15 Jan 14 - 06:02 PM

Some very kind and insightful comments. I do feel a little tentative when questioning doctrine, especially in our church discussions. However, I have never swallowed whole anything presented to me by the C of E, I like to chew it well first. (Please see the thread 'Holy Hanky' for example.) I bet some folk in my village view me as a bit of a maverick, but I sometimes think they secretly share my doubts. I hope God can accept my efforts to arrive at an understanding of my faith.
GUEST, I'm afraid I can't guess who you might be, but if I ever delivered a sermon, I'd enjoy having a discussion with you. Thank you very much for your kind remarks.


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Subject: RE: BS: Can People Forgive?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 15 Jan 14 - 05:43 PM

>>>I wonder if one can 'try' to love another person? <<<

Yes! Absolutely! I can! I have and I will again! One can try to see their point of view. One can look for their good points. One can say to one's self that hating this person is hurting me. It is helpful to think. "The next time I see this person I will smile." For me it is useful to first think of "love your enemies" as "stop blaming your enemies" and "stop dwelling on those who have trespassed against you." The love generally follows that it is not the love you have for someone close to you. It is the love you feel for humanity. I think some call it "agape" but I am not sure of that definition.

Before I became a Christian I spent a lot of time lying in bed when I should have been sleeping stewing over past wrongs. Following that advice "love your enemies" was one of the best things I have ever done for myself. I don't think of it as a commandment. I think of it as a teaching. Not following it has at times led to misery on the part of some family members and friends as well as suicidal thoughts, and that I know of, the the completion of one suicide.

As Larry has said, it is a choice. Christianity is a way of dealing with the hardships of life. There are other ways. Some I would guess are more effective than others. But Christianity has been followed for more than 2 thousand years by more than 1 billion people. Most of them, even when partly departing from the teachings, even when there is abuse of powers among the clergy derive some good from it.

It is not up to me to judge what quality of a Christian anyone is. I would advise, based on my own experience, any one who questions that about themselves, to do what they think is right for themselves based on their own judgement of what Jesus said. The Vicar is just a middleman.

I would say, if asked, if you find yourself overburdened by guilt or hate or greed any of the negative emotions, try turning to Christ for help.

A lot of people, as I did, do that when they hit rock bottom. A lot of people have been helped.


As for turning the other cheek, it works surprisingly well when dealing with people who are angry when you don't know why they are angry. To reference recent news, It is much much better than shooting them dead when they throw popcorn in your face.


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Subject: RE: BS: Can People Forgive?
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Jan 14 - 05:02 PM

"And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but perceivest not the beam that is in thine own eye?"

I always liked Luke--a bit rebel, a bit free thinker.

"And why behold you the mote that is in your brother's eye, but consider not the beam that is in your own eye?"

Matthew I have never liked as much as Luke, but ymmv on that.

Any preacher has the obligation to draw attention to matters of scripture and probably morality--define that as you will. But no preacher has the right to espouse "Thou shalts." As has been said by many sharp people on this thread, on occasion 'people of the cloth' forget who wove it. Great teachers lead students to arrive at great questions, and when the students answer those questions for themselves, therein is found the best of education. Good teachers lead students to arrive at good answers with few arriving at wrong answers. Poor teachers tell students what the answers are and fail them for it.

Eliza is, imo, a very brave woman. She never did particularly like me when I posted with a regular guest name--something I will never do again for good reason--but she always was the same wonderful 'questioner' she is now. Great teachers would love to have a class of Elizas because it's people like her who make education fun and worthwhile. FWIW, Eliza, if you were giving the sermon I'd show up (if only to argue with you). Not so much your preacher. IMO, your preacher is wrong and there ain't NO use arguing with some people.

:-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Can People Forgive?
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Jan 14 - 04:41 PM

I would have enjoyed being a vicar up in front of a captive audience, pontificating without hesitation deviation or interruption, better than just a minute


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Subject: RE: BS: Can People Forgive?
From: Larry The Radio Guy
Date: 15 Jan 14 - 04:39 PM

A lot of wisdom in Grishka's last response.

Forgiveness is a choice.......and when we make that choice it can really lighten our burden. But if we do it out of 'obligation'....and, as Eliza says, have to 'conjure up somehow a good feeling about the sinner', then it's probably not going to work the way we want it to.

I'm a great admirer of "Restorative Justice" concepts and practices.   I've witnessed many people relieve their burden by forgiving people who have perpetrated the most heinous crimes upon them.

I've also witnessed those who haven't decided to do that.........but have still stayed 'in touch' with those angry feelings and strong judgments, and have used them in a way that has helped them move on rather than remain stuck.

Either choice requires courage.   I would never stand in judgment of anybody who makes any choice that 'works' for them........and is also creating more good than harm to society.


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Subject: RE: BS: Can People Forgive?
From: GUEST,Pete from seven stars link
Date: 15 Jan 14 - 04:28 PM

I would say that love is a verb. That is ,it is something done ,rather than felt , though feelings may follow, but no guarantee.    But that is a biblical insight that you might not accept. I would say that it is logical to keep a reign on our emotions, not only because it is biblical but because society could fall further apart than it already has if everyone does and reacts just how they feel.


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Subject: RE: BS: Can People Forgive?
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 15 Jan 14 - 03:50 PM

I totally agree, Eliza. The style of the NT is pointed and poetical, indulging in paradoxes. It assumes a reader who knows how to interpret its style, like poetry. Many misunderstand it, others understand it correctly but do not know how to teach (- similar to my piano teacher who was an excellent pianist, or my sports teachers, alas!).

Obviously love cannot be commanded in the way formal duties can. And that is the very point of the "commandment". Faith is about exploring one's relationship to one's "neighbours", ancestors, fellow humans, and the universe. The more you proceed in that, the less you will be worried by envy and other bad feelings - automatically! Those who feel they have to castigate themselves are rarely successful.


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Subject: RE: BS: Can People Forgive?
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 15 Jan 14 - 01:41 PM

I wonder if one can 'try' to love another person? It seems one has to wrestle with one's own responses and emotions in order to conjure up somehow a good feeling about the 'sinner'. I find this impossible I'm afraid. Love to me is something which grows unaided in the heart and can't be encouraged or pushed into being. Religion (in a broad sense) appears to disregard to a certain extent the natural, human reactions and responses to events, acts and situations. In fact, many ask one to suppress, for example, sexual feelings (which IMO are perfectly normal and not at all sinful) or revulsion, hatred, disapproval etc. of evil people. I'm reluctant to let go of my natural promptings. To 'turn the other cheek' is completely daft. Jesus may have asked us to do this, but one's logic argues against it. I value my logic.


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Subject: RE: BS: Can People Forgive?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 15 Jan 14 - 12:45 PM

"Hate the sin but love the sinner" I guess is an extension of "Love thy neighbor as thyself" Or more to the point "Love thy enemies."

Its a very very difficult thing to do. But it is what Jesus told people to do. I try to do that because it is good for me to do that. Not because it is good for the sinner. And as I said before that does not mean that I am for letting the sinner avoid the consequences.

You try to love everyone, in spite of what they have done. But that does not mean they are not responsible for their actions.


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Subject: RE: BS: Can People Forgive?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 15 Jan 14 - 09:15 AM

I agree with everything you've written in your post above, Elize. Your vicar is wrong, in my opinion..and under that belief he has, everyone should be forgiven, no matter what the sin involved, which is utter nonsense and it's the wrong thing for the Church to be preaching too, as there are many 'sins' which should never be forgiven, imo.


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Subject: RE: BS: Can People Forgive?
From: Janie
Date: 14 Jan 14 - 11:50 PM

Thank you for starting this thread, Eliza. Much personal thoughtful experience and reflection shared. At your invitation.


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Subject: RE: BS: Can People Forgive?
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 14 Jan 14 - 07:06 PM

Love and forgiveness in the spiritual sense are general attitudes, and implied by any notion of faith. They do not oblige us to "turn the other cheek" in all circumstances, or to be friendly to offenders, but (as we saw before) to let go of the desire for revenge or retribution, personally and collectively. Those desires are selfish and destructive, even if apparently conceived in the name of other people such as the Native Americans or abused children.

Fighting for justice and against crime is quite a different thing, and so is mourning one's losses. I have the feeling that Lizzie Cornish has an inadequate approach to the topic, sadly causing damage to her concerns and her own person.

Eliza, if you ask me: don't worry that much.


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Subject: RE: BS: Can People Forgive?
From: Ebbie
Date: 14 Jan 14 - 06:34 PM

Nor do I think religion has anything to do with it. And I agree that each person does - and must do- what their system dictates. No one can expect that one size fits all.

In my own instance, had I not forgiven my brother before he died I would not have forgiven myself. I don't like that bitter taste in my mouth.


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Subject: RE: BS: Can People Forgive?
From: GUEST,Ed T
Date: 14 Jan 14 - 05:40 PM

In the past, I have forgiven, I have accommodated, I have lowered my expectations, and I have also learned and moved on. I suspect there is no universal answer, as it depends on the persons involved and situation at hand. I don't really see what religion has to do with it, nor would I suggest anyone judge another for their decision on how to deal with their own situations.


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Subject: RE: BS: Can People Forgive?
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Jan 14 - 04:33 PM

Life is short. yes, depending on circumstance.


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Subject: RE: BS: Can People Forgive?
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 14 Jan 14 - 02:14 PM

Our vicar, an absolutely lovely man who radiates goodness, said, "Hate the sin but love the sinner." However, I find it very hard to separate the two. After all, the person who has committed an evil act cannot be viewed as 'lovable' when one knows he/she is capable of dreadful things. To me, in some way it negates the suffering of a victim if one asks them to 'forgive'. I'm afraid I resort to my old friend Common Sense. It's quite normal to detest someone who's done something terrible, especially if one was on the receiving end.


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Subject: RE: BS: Can People Forgive?
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Jan 14 - 01:25 PM

"Another aspect of this is that we are most inclined to resent the offenses of others when they resemble our own offenses in some way. Examining your own conscience is a good way to see an offender in a clearer light."

I really don't think that is relevant in extreme cases like those mentioned by Lizzie.

It may be alright for some "do gooders" to forgive child rapists or murderers, but try telling that to the parents involved. They have to live with the horror for the rest of their lives.
They will never have peace of mind, whether they forgive or not.

Some crimes are so extreme, that the perpetrator is beyond redemption.....and forgiveness IMO.


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Subject: RE: BS: Can People Forgive?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 14 Jan 14 - 12:49 PM

I don't think that not forgiving someone means holding a grudge. It just means you've decided you don't want to forgive them.

Wasn't it Lord Longford who felt that Myra Hindley deserved forgiveness?   You cannot tell someone else how to feel in such a terrible circumstance, because only the people so deeply affected know how they feel and as Hindley, in all her time upon this Earth, after those murders, couldn't even bring herself to say where the bodies of the children were, to bring some kind of peace to those parents, let alone apologize from her soul, why the hell should ANYONE have forgiven her for what she was a part of?

I get very fed up with folks who tell you that you should forgive someone, when they have NO idea how that person has so deeply affected you.

It is only for the person who has been affected the most to decide and whatever they decide to do should be respected.

I could never forgive anyone who murdered a child of mine. To be honest, I don't think I could even if they begged for forgiveness. Some things ARE just simply utterly unforgivable and sometimes, those who have done those things just have to live with the horror of what they've done.

Most certainly, had I ever done such a vile thing, I'd not WANT nor EXPECT to be forgiven. I'd probably just end my life, were I able to, slip quietly away and be no more trouble to anyone, feeling I no longer had a right to live upon this earth, after doing such a terrible deed.

It is not bad to not forgive. It doesn't destroy someone not to forgive. In fact, sometimes, people need to feel they have that power inside them, because every other power has been taken away from them by the person others feel they should openly forgive.

I think it really is down, entirely, to the individual person concerned who has endured such hell.

And if your child has been murdered, raped, etc..how do you ever live a normal life again anyway? You can't. You just go into 'existing' mode.

I have friends in America whose only son was killed by a drunk driver. He was their only child. They have turned towards Love, loving everyone they meet, creating love around them, but...BUT...they have not forgiven the young man who drove into their son, driving him through a brick wall, along with several of his friends, some of whom sustained terrible head injuries...

That man was out of prison SO fast. Adding to their heartache....

They have no intention of forgiving him and he has never made the effort to even go and see them, despite living just a few blocks away. Their lives stopped that day...and even though they have many friends and family around them, so much love, I know that all they want is to be back with the beloved son one day soon.

I would NEVER tell either of them they have to forgive that young man, ever. I've seen just a small part of the fallout of his decision to drink himself senseless, then get into his car....My friends have to live with that each and every day, no child, no marriage of that child, no grandchildren, no future direct continuation of their family. It was ALL taken on that fateful day.

They continue to love though...


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Subject: RE: BS: Can People Forgive?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 14 Jan 14 - 09:58 AM

Nice one Kendall


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Subject: RE: BS: Can People Forgive?
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 14 Jan 14 - 07:12 AM

Yeah, but in the moonlight, the wake looks wonderful, and the phosphorescence of the plankton is a reminder not to held people back from realising their dream.







Or some such bollocks.


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Subject: RE: BS: Can People Forgive?
From: GUEST,kendall
Date: 14 Jan 14 - 07:06 AM

Those who love give hostage to fate.

It's impossible to go through life without stepping on toes.

"The great ship EGO sails on with no thought for the damage it leaves in its wake." (Me)


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Subject: RE: BS: Can People Forgive?
From: GUEST, Eb
Date: 14 Jan 14 - 01:40 AM

"Another aspect of this is that we are most inclined to resent the offenses of others when they resemble our own offenses in some way." Amos

This line to me is the really significant one. As in my experience with my brother, I eventually learned that not only had he learned what buttons of mine to push, I had become skilled in pushing his. Thanks, Amos.


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Subject: RE: BS: Can People Forgive?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 14 Jan 14 - 12:01 AM

Amos: "...--holding a grudge--has been likened to drinking poison and waiting for the other person to die."

Once again, Amos, you shine!

That was excellent!

Thank You!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Can People Forgive?
From: Amos
Date: 13 Jan 14 - 11:37 PM

The opposite of forgiveness--holding a grudge--has been likened to drinking poison and waiting for the other person to die.

In my view it is an error to give someone else the right to determine your state of mind, or heart, or spirit. Forgiveness--a loosely used term--does not mean forgoing justice, but it does mean releasing any hunger for revenge.

One reason for this is that a crime, once done, is not reversible, and dwelling on blame and regret for the past is detrimental to one's own power to do good in the present. This, thereby, only exacerbates the impact of the crime by redoubling its harmful consequences.

Another aspect of this is that we are most inclined to resent the offenses of others when they resemble our own offenses in some way. Examining your own conscience is a good way to see an offender in a clearer light.


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Subject: RE: BS: Can People Forgive?
From: JennieG
Date: 13 Jan 14 - 09:30 PM

Not always, no. Sometimes scars ran too deep to be expunged by a few words.


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Subject: RE: BS: Can People Forgive?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 13 Jan 14 - 01:38 PM

I agree McGrath. There is obvious societal harm (moral hazard?) in people being excused for stealing simply by making restitution if and only if they are caught.


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Subject: RE: BS: Can People Forgive?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Jan 14 - 01:17 PM

If you forgive someone for stealing from you that's a different thing from saying it's all right for them to keep what they stole. You might indeed do that, but it would be a separate thing. Again, you might accept the return of something stolen as wiping out the debt, but you might not forgive the act of stealing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Can People Forgive?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Jan 14 - 12:52 PM

Sinning is just another word for doing something wrong. Doing wrong is just another word for sinning. It's a matter of language, not logic. It's just not the language you use.
Why should it be? But I think it's important to us to recognise when we have done something wrong, whatever we call it.


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