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BS: Did CIA lunch the Sarin missile in Syria

Teribus 18 Sep 13 - 02:12 AM
Teribus 18 Sep 13 - 01:50 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 16 Sep 13 - 05:17 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 16 Sep 13 - 04:40 PM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Sep 13 - 04:27 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Sep 13 - 03:27 AM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Sep 13 - 02:45 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Sep 13 - 02:16 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 15 Sep 13 - 05:56 PM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Sep 13 - 02:38 PM
Jim Carroll 15 Sep 13 - 01:29 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 15 Sep 13 - 01:23 PM
Jim Carroll 15 Sep 13 - 10:46 AM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Sep 13 - 09:19 AM
Bobert 15 Sep 13 - 09:04 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Sep 13 - 08:22 AM
akenaton 15 Sep 13 - 07:56 AM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Sep 13 - 07:41 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 15 Sep 13 - 05:50 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Sep 13 - 05:43 AM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Sep 13 - 04:46 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Sep 13 - 03:30 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 15 Sep 13 - 02:27 AM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Sep 13 - 02:04 AM
Bobert 14 Sep 13 - 09:14 PM
GUEST,Ed T 14 Sep 13 - 08:33 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 14 Sep 13 - 07:02 PM
GUEST,Ed T 14 Sep 13 - 05:45 PM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Sep 13 - 03:51 PM
Jim Carroll 14 Sep 13 - 10:51 AM
pdq 14 Sep 13 - 10:17 AM
akenaton 14 Sep 13 - 09:27 AM
Jim Carroll 14 Sep 13 - 06:18 AM
GUEST 14 Sep 13 - 05:48 AM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Sep 13 - 05:11 AM
Jim Carroll 14 Sep 13 - 04:23 AM
akenaton 14 Sep 13 - 03:55 AM
Jim Carroll 14 Sep 13 - 03:08 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 13 Sep 13 - 06:46 PM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Sep 13 - 04:07 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Sep 13 - 03:41 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 12 Sep 13 - 03:57 PM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Sep 13 - 03:51 PM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Sep 13 - 03:20 PM
Jim Carroll 12 Sep 13 - 03:02 PM
Jim Carroll 12 Sep 13 - 12:02 PM
GUEST,CS 12 Sep 13 - 09:37 AM
Ed T 12 Sep 13 - 09:29 AM
GUEST,mayomick 12 Sep 13 - 08:00 AM
GUEST,mayomick 12 Sep 13 - 07:26 AM
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Subject: RE: BS: Did CIA lunch the Sarin missile in Syria
From: Teribus
Date: 18 Sep 13 - 02:12 AM

UN weapons inspectors report to the UN Security Council has come out with the facts relating to the attack on the 21st August:

1: The weaponised agent used was Sarin
2: It was delivered by Rockets that had been fired into the area in question (Sorry Akenaton there goes your leak from stored weapons theory)
3: Via forensic examination of the site, the prevailing weather at the time of the attack and determination of the trajectories of the missiles fired, they came from areas controlled by Assad's forces
4: Examination of the projectiles indicated that one had writing in cyrillic script (What was the caption Jom? - From Russia with Love?).

The UN inspectors did complete their work in Syria, the UN, true to form, sent them into Syria to do a non-job, find out if chemical weapons had been used, but make absolutely no attempt to apportion blame for the attack - useless as always.


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Subject: RE: BS: Did CIA lunch the Sarin missile in Syria
From: Teribus
Date: 18 Sep 13 - 01:50 AM

Therefore under your literal approach to the CWC no country can ever declare itself to be "free" of chemical weapons, no country can ever rid itself of chemical weapons, no country can ever state that it does not export chemical weapons - your view point even reading the links you have supplied is utterly ridiculous - and you know that perfectly well.

Dual use for bubonic plague cultures? OK then Mick go back to your wikipeda source and find out:

A) Who, and I mean by that, what US "Government" Department, dispatched it

B) Who, and by that I mean what Iraqi Institution received it

I think that you will find out the answer to A is CDC and the answer to B is a medical research centre. Now while you are at it go back to the link that you supplied and read the bit about agents that are allowed to be manufactured, grown and stored for research purposes.


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Subject: RE: BS: Did CIA lunch the Sarin missile in Syria
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 16 Sep 13 - 05:17 PM

""A true "liberal" as opposed to liberal, would immediately blame the Assad govt, regardless of proof.....because they see them as undemocratic, anti human rights, equality etc.....""

And that is exactly what they are! I just don't see the justification for military action based on the "balance of probabilities".

For me, proof should precede action, not follow it.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Did CIA lunch the Sarin missile in Syria
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 16 Sep 13 - 04:40 PM

Gosh, I hate to interrupt your 'sweet talk'...but I heard an interview, a while back, from an officer in the military from Iraq, who claimed to have overseen the transfer or such weapons from Iraq to Syria, as the U.S. was getting ready to invade Iraq.....I can't confirm that the story was true, other than I did hear the interview. Problem with that story is, that maybe there were WMDs in Iraq, and Bush was right(?)...in which case they got them from us!!
But like I said, I can't confirm that the guy being interviewed was for real...but it did sound that way.
As the way things are unfolding, skepticism and cynicism may be more useful than gullibility!!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Did CIA lunch the Sarin missile in Syria
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Sep 13 - 04:27 AM

Who armed Syria Jim?
Name and shame.


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Subject: RE: BS: Did CIA lunch the Sarin missile in Syria
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Sep 13 - 03:27 AM

Your moronic sycophancy in attempting to steer these discussions into your own particular comfort zone not only cuts across what everybody else is doing here, but it goes against everything this forum stands for - it has given you the reputation you now have on Mudcat.
If you put forward your own arguments instead of attempting to suppress those of others (thread drift being your most common stunt) you might have something to say - instead of trying to block what others have to say if you find yourself at a loss to answer for yourself.
Your "more or less" guilty really does it for me; it takes me back to the fights we had in junior school "he stared it sir" - for Christ's sake, grow up and deal with these subjects as an adult, or leave them to those who wish to - you are humiliating yourself and fucking up yet another serious subject with your inanities.
Grow Up
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Did CIA lunch the Sarin missile in Syria
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Sep 13 - 02:45 AM

All that you accuse us of, Russia and China have vastly more guilt.
Iran and the Gulf states have more guilt.
Hezblollah has more.
The Jihadists have more.

Why single out the least guilty Jim?
You can not blame the West for any of this.


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Subject: RE: BS: Did CIA lunch the Sarin missile in Syria
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Sep 13 - 02:16 AM

"What obsession keeps you trying to implicate the innocent"
Probably the same obsession that drives you to protect the guilty you half-wit.
The facilitating of fanatical monsters by cynical bastards who use the misery of the world to fill their bank accounts has made the miserable place for our children to inherit and there is nothing more pathetic than those who may not benefit, but stand by and egg them on.
"Russia and China supply ALL Assad's arsenal of atrocity"
That may be true at the present time, but Britain and the rest of the "Free World" have given the killers and torturers of Syria a free passage for as long as they have been killing and torturing, and their refusal to lift a finger to help when the killing and torturing is done in the open makes them fully complicit in their atrocities.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Did CIA lunch the Sarin missile in Syria
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 15 Sep 13 - 05:56 PM

Well. it does show a lot of the hands that sell 'stuff'....I wonder to who else?....which, of course means that there cannot be a determination of 'who did it' and 'who didn't'....before premature sabre rattling should be blathering forward on. Maybe there is some 'blame shifting' going on...or maybe it was made to appear to be somebody to whom it wasn't.
Regardless, all parties should dispose of them.....now do you think that whomever 'runs' that operation, can be trusted??...to even get rid of their own???
.....even disregarding a higher bidder??

Just a thought.

Jeez! Would it be 'nice' to be able to trust the governments that are supposed to be protecting their citizens...............(again?)

Oh, well..back to the music....

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Did CIA lunch the Sarin missile in Syria
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Sep 13 - 02:38 PM

Russia and China supply ALL Assad's arsenal of atrocity.
Just them.
What obsession keeps you trying to implicate the innocent you deranged, posturing buffoon?


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Subject: RE: BS: Did CIA lunch the Sarin missile in Syria
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Sep 13 - 01:29 PM

Not only is arms Trading not a thread drift, but it is the key to all these atrocities and human rights abuses lies in the West's thriving arms industry and its willingness to sell to just about anybody – but this shrinking violet has kept her light under a bushel and has even sold chemical weapons to Iran
Jim Carroll

http://www.globes.co.il/serveen/globes/docview.asp?did=362353

http://www.thedailysheeple.com/israels-chemical-weapons-stockpile-highlights-western-hypocrisy_092013

http://www.theinsider.org/news/article.asp?id=776

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/.premium-1.528993

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/may/23/israel-south-africa-nuclear-weapons

http://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/who-will-control-israels-arms-dealers/


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Subject: RE: BS: Did CIA lunch the Sarin missile in Syria
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 15 Sep 13 - 01:23 PM

Bobert: "Obama to the GfinS's and other righties of the world, "Check mate, ya'll"..."


Stop playing with yourself...or you'll stay blind!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Did CIA lunch the Sarin missile in Syria
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Sep 13 - 10:46 AM

"Yes, even I can make a mistake."
I trust this was intended as an ironic remark?
"I have no reason to believe sniper rounds were supplied, and nor do you because they were not."
You and your dopey buddy were certain they were and you were willing to pass of such a sale as "harmless"
"Flouride is not a very harmful substance, compared to say alcohol or lavatory cleaner."
Is is also "the" essential component of saron and knowing this, Britain licenced it to be sold to Assad..
"Because this thread is about Syria Jim."
Good old "thread-drift" standby - it is what anybody who considers it relevant to the subject - arms sales to mass murderers is as relevent as it gets - obviously not to you!
"You are just raving now."
Byee!1
Jim Carroll
You've been given the possible effects of tear gas, you have been given the article covering the UK's police forces request to use it for crowd control - "put them together and what have you got, bippety-bobbety-boo
Therest is the old usual of "All denials and lies" - ah well!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Did CIA lunch the Sarin missile in Syria
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Sep 13 - 09:19 AM

yourself along with Mudcat's self appointed weapons expert, identified "MERELY" sniper rifle bullets, (though you hastily changed your mind when you realised how stupid you had been)

Yes, even I can make a mistake.
Again sorry.
I have no reason to believe sniper rounds were supplied, and nor do you because they were not.

You have tried to pass off chemical components for saran as "harmless"

Flouride is not a very harmful substance, compared to say alcohol or lavatory cleaner.

- the fact that Britain only withdrew the licences when they were told to by the UN rules is immaterial - they sell weapons to monsters.

No.
There are no UN sanctions.
There are EU sanctions that UK was instrumental in putting in place.

You refuse to comment on the arms sales to other terror states even though the British Trade Secretary has admitted it as a fact

Because this thread is about Syria Jim.

You are making claims that are contradicted by public knowledge and you don't even go through the motions of producing evidence to back up your stupid claims - THEY ARE ENTIRELY MADE UP BY YOU>

No.
THAT is made up.

I learned very quickly that it was necessary to check your attributed claims as you had a nasty habit of doctoring them -
Lie Jim.

The British Police Forces have applied for permission and if they get it, will shortly be using chemical weapons on protesters here just as Assad is using them in Syria - you have had the proof of this and you haven't even bothered to comment on this - presumably you have no problem with it!


Huh?
You are just raving now.


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Subject: RE: BS: Did CIA lunch the Sarin missile in Syria
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Sep 13 - 09:04 AM

Looks as if the Harvard guy has won the chess match... Yeah, the righties have gone thru their usual temper tantrums, propagandizing, woof-woofin' and all but breaking down in tears over Obama's handing on Syria but...

...no new wars...

...no $2-3T run thru the shredder...

...no shots fired at or by our service people...

...control over Assad's chemical weapons...

Obama to the GfinS's and other righties of the world, "Check mate, ya'll"...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Did CIA lunch the Sarin missile in Syria
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Sep 13 - 08:22 AM

You continue to claim this - you have yourself along with Mudcat's self appointed weapons expert, identified "MERELY" sniper rifle bullets, (though you hastily changed your mind when you realised how stupid you had been)
You have tried to pass off chemical components for saran as "harmless" - the fact that Britain only withdrew the licences when they were told to by the UN rules is immaterial - they sell weapons to monsters.
You refuse to comment on the arms sales to other terror states even though the British Trade Secretary has admitted it as a fact
You are making claims that are contradicted by public knowledge and you don't even go through the motions of producing evidence to back up your stupid claims - THEY ARE ENTIRELY MADE UP BY YOU>
I learned very quickly that it was necessary to check your attributed claims as you had a nasty habit of doctoring them - now you hardly ever give links
You are a fantasist.
The British Police Forces have applied for permission and if they get it, will shortly be using chemical weapons on protesters here just as Assad is using them in Syria - you have had the proof of this and you haven't even bothered to comment on this - presumably you have no problem with it!
Britain continues to sell arms to monsters, despite the fact that the Third World is in upheaval trying to rid of some of the British Arms Industry's best customers
Your continued silence indicates that you have no problem with this either - I don't believe for a minute that you are prepared to show us that this is not the case - beyond just denying it, of course?


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Subject: RE: BS: Did CIA lunch the Sarin missile in Syria
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Sep 13 - 07:56 AM

Don T... no fulminating from me, I also agree with Sanity.

A true "liberal" as opposed to liberal, would immediately blame the Assad govt, regardless of proof.....because they see them as undemocratic, anti human rights, equality etc.....all the things that are simply unrealistic in Middle Eastern society.


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Subject: RE: BS: Did CIA lunch the Sarin missile in Syria
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Sep 13 - 07:41 AM

including Syria and their supplies have included chemical weapons

No.
No weapons.


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Subject: RE: BS: Did CIA lunch the Sarin missile in Syria
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 15 Sep 13 - 05:50 AM

To say that only Assad had anything to gain from the choice of target is actually to misunderstand what the gain might be.

If (I stress IF) the rebels wanted to goad the Western Powers into attacking Assad, what could be more logical than choosing a target which, on the surface, would seem to benefit only Assad?

Surely that would produce exactly the degree of belief in Assad's guilt that we see here.

I'm with GfS on this one. Nobody here KNOWS who used that gas!

To assume that the rebels would not be that devious, or that callous, is to forget that they are fighting for their lives, and their religious beliefs at the same time.

Until we absolutely KNOW who to blame, we don't know who to support, because if the rebels should happen to be guilty, I for one would not want to see them in power.

Now Ake and others can fulminate over my "liberal" views.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Did CIA lunch the Sarin missile in Syria
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Sep 13 - 05:43 AM

"I always supported Obama's proposed limited air and missile intervention"
Yeah, yeah, yeah - sure you did - pity you waited for Israel to give the go-ahead - your support!
"Not withstanding Cameron's defeat, UKIP was the only British party opposed to the intervention In US, it seems to be the Tea Party."
"That would be Russia"
Britain and America historically have bee the world's leading arms suppliers for terrorist states - including Syria and their supplies have included chemical weapons - go ask that nice Vince Cable - he's already said so, and I'm sure he wouldn't mind repeating it.
If the british police get their way we will shortly be seeing the "harmless" tear gas used as crowd control on the streets of Britain - lest we forget:

"Although the Chemical Weapons Convention (CWC) prohibits the use of tear gas and pepper spray in warfare, for domestic policing and related uses by state forces, these chemicals are allowed to be used on people and are labeled as "riot control agents." The CWC stipulates that these chemical weapons must have effects that disappear shortly after exposure, meaning no long-term health effects; however, in a number of cases, researchers have linked the use of tear gas and pepper spray to possible serious illness and death. This research echoes people's stories about tear gas and pepper spray."
http://facingteargas.org/bp/38/health-effects
Britain and the US remain among the world's top five arms dealers along with Russia and China, can't remember the other one, Germany, I think - great company they would have us Britons keep.
I didn't think for minute you would produce a shred of evidence proving my "Western Militarist Imperialist Fascist" tendencies - you never have gone in for that sort of thing
Keep on making it up - helps raise the tone of this forum!!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Did CIA lunch the Sarin missile in Syria
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Sep 13 - 04:46 AM


From the beginning I have argued that if the UN will do nothing it is up to those who have assisted Assad with weapons sales and long term support should intervene to stop the slaughter


That would be Russia really, but you meant UK and US.
I, like all sane people, opposed Western forces entering Syria.

I always supported Obama's proposed limited air and missile intervention to deter use of illegal weapons, as a lesser of evils.


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Subject: RE: BS: Did CIA lunch the Sarin missile in Syria
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Sep 13 - 03:30 AM

"Not withstanding Cameron's defeat, UKIP was the only British party opposed to the intervention.
In US, it seems to be the Tea Party."

"And the "intervention" you demanded was British and US forces going into Syria."
I asked you to provide a source for your accusation - you still haven't
From the beginning I have argued that if the UN will do nothing it is up to those who have assisted Assad with weapons sales and long term support should intervene to stop the slaughter - the terms I have used throughout - which you have described as "Western Militarist Imperialist Fascist.".
You, on the other hand opposed any form of intervention, claiming what was happening was "civil war" .
On having it pointed out that Israel supported intervention you executed an incredible U-turn, claiming you had agreed with them from the beginning, arguing:
"Not withstanding Cameron's defeat, UKIP was the only British party opposed to the intervention.
In US, it seems to be the Tea Party."
The "intervention" you were supporting (or not, depending what Israel told you to support) was air attacks.
You have reduced your input into this forum to lies and total distortions of the arguments of others - not just here but on most threads you participate in now - you have been given evidence of this and have on every occasion just chosen to walk away from that evidence without comment, that is what I "remember".
If you have any evidence of Imperialism and fascism (apart from your own) produce it - I wouldn't in a million years expect you to withdraw in - and apologising would be "grovelling" wouldn't it?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Did CIA lunch the Sarin missile in Syria
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 15 Sep 13 - 02:27 AM

Bobert: "Face it, the CIA and the "rebels" had nothing to gain by gassing this area..."

Well, I never alluded to 'and'....and yes, both had something to gain. independently of each other.

Bobert: "Sorry to inflict reason into an unreasonable discussion..."

Don't worry, you didn't!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Did CIA lunch the Sarin missile in Syria
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Sep 13 - 02:04 AM

Yes Bobert.
In our courts unattainable absolute proof is not demanded.
Just "beyond reasonable doubt" or beyond the doubt of a reasonable person.
In civil courts, a decision can be reached just on "the balance of probabilities."

How strong is your doubt GfS?


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Subject: RE: BS: Did CIA lunch the Sarin missile in Syria
From: Bobert
Date: 14 Sep 13 - 09:14 PM

Chances of the CIA being the bad guys here = 1%...

Chances of the "rebels" being the bad guys here = 1%...

Chances of Assad being the bad guy here = 98%...

I mean, let's get real here... The area outside of Damascus where the Sarin attack occurred was an area that was worrisome to Assad and his regime... They had tried over and over to take it out because of it's proximity to Damascus with no avail...

Face it, the CIA and the "rebels" had nothing to gain by gassing this area...

Sorry to inflict reason into an unreasonable discussion...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Did CIA lunch the Sarin missile in Syria
From: GUEST,Ed T
Date: 14 Sep 13 - 08:33 PM

In a court of justice, past crimes (or the crimes of others, or in other times) are not a major factor, if entered into consideration at all in determining guilt or innocence.

So, why would the past escapades of the CIA, George Bush, Assad's father, bankers and oil deals in other times and areas be a major factor to consider in this case?

That is a real logical puzzler for me. It seems like a very illogical and skewed approach to getting closer to determining who used the chemical weapons on civilians in Syria. IMO, If one can set those aside the course is open to get closer to the most likely candidates. Unfortunately, many of the most "level-headed thinkers on mudcat seem to be stuck in that directionless mire.


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Subject: RE: BS: Did CIA lunch the Sarin missile in Syria
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 14 Sep 13 - 07:02 PM

Aww..You don't need to call it quits for everybody else, just because you've jumped to conclusions about who launched the attack, and can't PROVE it....otherwise, your premise is all off....an that certainly IS a possibility, isn't it?

Let's see now...if there are corporate/bankster interests involved, and they own the 'news' media, and foment, then guide the national debate, about it, both to the 'right' and 'left' dialogues regarding it, is that to say that that is true???...when the whole of your opinion regarding it, is based on what they're telling you?

As Jim, I'm NO fan of Assad or any of it!...
But I'm also NOT a fan of irresponsible propaganda, when it CAN'T or HASN'T been backed up.

That is NOT unreasonable, now is it?

After the whoppers we've heard about Vietnam, Central America, Contras, drugs for arms to Iran, hostages, WMS' and the Iraq invasion, TWICE, 'Fast and Furious', Benghazi, Libya, Egypt so on and so forth.....and all of a sudden, for NO reason at all, we're supposed to believe this unverifiable novel????

....and it was ONLY a 'co-incidence' that we invaded Iraq the second time, when they were threatening and negotiating to go OFF the dollar, in their oil trade???

...and nobody else you can think of 'just might' have had a reason to pull this off???
...even for any other reasons beyond that???

THEN, you get real nasty about it, based on your unverifiable 'opinion'???????????
That's not to say that it didn't happen that way...but a little bit of corroboration, would sure be a luxury, wouldn't it?.....but as it is, it's not even listed in the 'bare necessities'!

Just sumptin' to tink about!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Did CIA lunch the Sarin missile in Syria
From: GUEST,Ed T
Date: 14 Sep 13 - 05:45 PM

""There is no reason for this thread to continue.""

I have to agree - I never understood why there were/are two threads with basically similar content (and posters)) - regardless of the somewhat odd (and possibly leading) title.


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Subject: RE: BS: Did CIA lunch the Sarin missile in Syria
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Sep 13 - 03:51 PM

The suggestion that I ever proposed boots on the ground invasion is easily proved - show where I have ever made such a suggestion.
I have specified intervention in the massacres - no more


Yes Jim.
And the "intervention" you demanded was British and US forces going into Syria.
Remember now?


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Subject: RE: BS: Did CIA lunch the Sarin missile in Syria
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Sep 13 - 10:51 AM

"but I certainly have never seen him receive " a hiding" at your hands"
Not by my hands Ache - it was all self-nfliicted, the rest of us could only watch and wonder
And no - you might consider yourself different from Keith but you're two sides of the same coin as far as I'm concerned - what with your views on homosexuals and your rants about immigration - this is the stuff the BNP and such shit are made of.
"these people don't want, or need Western style "democracy".
And you think Western Democracy with it's Arms sales, predatory economies, histories of Empire and lust for oil is a dream to work for?
These people have moved away from feudal monarchies; they might even achieve real democracy in time, but the first step is to get out of the sheikhs, imams and all the other garbage that has kept them where they were for millennia (with the full support of the west as long as they carried their loyalty cards and kept the oil flowing).
World inaction placed the Syrian protests in the hands of the religious radicals.
You whinge because they are not democratic yet you slag them off when they try to do something about it - what the **** do you suggest -that they just lie back and let and let the saran roll over them.
On humanitarian grounds alone something needs to be done to put right our malign influence on our "valued trading partners".
The West has been fully aware of the plight for centuries, yet they had barely put their walking shoes on and taken to the streets when Cameron and his merry men opened a huge Arms Fair deliberately targeting the very garbage they were protesting about.
"An elected govt(which the West didn't like)"
Er no - which the people didn't like, hat's why they took to the streets again - maybe if the West had done something other than arming the dictators down the ages the potential revolution wouldn't have fallen into the hands of the army - who knows?
PDQ -
Don't you find it somewhat contradictory to accuse someone of ranting and name calling with " Carrol County Blue Baby to rant and to call people names" - or is there something we haven't been told - address the arguments if you want to get on in the world my son!
I have to say I admire your style - making your first entry onto this thread a demand that we all move off to another one - you trying to tell us you'ver got B.O.?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Did CIA lunch the Sarin missile in Syria
From: pdq
Date: 14 Sep 13 - 10:17 AM

There is no reason for this thread to continue.

The title is asinine and it has become simply become another place for the Carrol County Blue Baby to rant and to call people names.

There is another thread with a reasonable tille on the same subject.


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Subject: RE: BS: Did CIA lunch the Sarin missile in Syria
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Sep 13 - 09:27 AM

I have very different political views from Keith, but I certainly have never seen him receive " a hiding" at your hands...or anyone else's for that matter.

The Arab Spring?....get real, these people don't want, or need Western style "democracy".
Just look at Iraq, Libya, Egypt.....are you blind?

Right at the beginning I said Egypt would be the template and what have we got as an alternative to "democracy"?
An elected govt(which the West didn't like) overthrown by a military coup, hundreds of civilian demonstrators shot in cold blood, all political opposition criminalised, jailed, tortured.
And this military regime receives aid and arms from the West, without a word about missile strikes or UN resolutions.

You may be blind Jim, but cant you SMELL the hypocrisy?


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Subject: RE: BS: Did CIA lunch the Sarin missile in Syria
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Sep 13 - 06:18 AM

"I opposed war on Iraq , but was never a fan of Saddam, Jim"
Ake the Ache may not be actually supporting Assad, but suggesting that he was "crushing a rebellion" by slaughtering protesters is certainly to give comfort - similarly, he didn't actually support Breivik's massacre, but his suggestion that some things the killer said motivated him were "worh considering" has the effect in diverting the blame to the victims
I oppose the US going in anywhere, but I think the situation is very different here.
Iraq was about oil - pure and simple, which is why the Bush Babies acted as they did.
Here, the US appears to have been shamed into going through some sort of motions to seem do be doing something.
I hope they don't take action and that the threat of doing so is enough, but hand-wringing at Assad's behaviour using chemical weapons he was helped develop by the West is not an option.
The suggestion that I ever proposed boots on the ground invasion is easily proved - show where I have ever made such a suggestion.
I have specified intervention in the massacres - no more
The fact that the accusation was made by our resident hand-wringer who suggested that the killer would be stopped if we continued selling him tear gas and armoured cars (and probably sniper bullets, of course is evidence of where he is coming from)
However, if continuing to make it up as he goes along takes some of the sting out of the hidings he has suffered of late, why should I begrudge him a little relief
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Did CIA lunch the Sarin missile in Syria
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Sep 13 - 05:48 AM

I opposed war on Iraq , but was never a fan of Saddam, Jim. The NSA would certainly know whether or not the alleged skype conversation overheard by the Belgian academic and Italian journalist held captive was genuine or not. When are we going to hear from them ?


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Subject: RE: BS: Did CIA lunch the Sarin missile in Syria
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Sep 13 - 05:11 AM

Jim is no liberal on this!
He favoured Western military intervention long before the issue of gas arose.
And he did not favour just a limited air strike.
He demanded an actual boots on the ground invasion by US and British forces to solve another Muslim nation's problems, without Security Council backing and ignoring all vetoes.

If you are looking for labels it would have to be Western Militarist Imperialist Fascist.


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Subject: RE: BS: Did CIA lunch the Sarin missile in Syria
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Sep 13 - 04:23 AM

"how do you expect him to react?"
So - another killer in your fan book - wonder if we can arrange that he shares a cell with Brievik (who is now studying politics, you will be pleased to here)
This started as a protest - as part of the Arab Spring - not as an armed revolt.
Whatever limitations the demands were they could only improve the prevailing situation of torture, secret arrests, the suppression and "disappearing" of all opposition - a step in the right direction.
You people whine on about lack of democracy in these countries, but whenever anybody tries to improve the situation you're the first in line to back the monsters - is that really your idea of revolution - sitting on your hands and waiting for the right moment?
I have no objection to being describes as a "liberal" - it is, along with "leftie", "naive", "republican - (no - wait till I put the capital letter in, I do think it strange to be ruled by generations of in-breds) Republican.... as meaningless as any other label you people substitute for argument, but feel free to use such terms if it saves you the trouble of thinking.
I am far from "liberal" in my views and am well used to the "let's - wait - until - the - conditions - are - perfect - before - we - get - up - out - of - our - armchairs - and - actually - do - something" school of thought.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Did CIA lunch the Sarin missile in Syria
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Sep 13 - 03:55 AM

Jim.....if Mr Cameron or Mr Milliband were to be confronted by an armed socialist uprising in our own perfectly democratic country, do you really not think that the army would be sent in to crush it pretty damn quick?

Mr Assad is attempting to rule a nation of religious factions pumped up by zealots and agencies of foreign powers.....how do you expect him to react?

You and all "liberals" are living in a fairyland if you really believe what you espouse.
Sooner or later, we in the West are going to have to deal with things as they really are, not as we imagine them to be.


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Subject: RE: BS: Did CIA lunch the Sarin missile in Syria
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Sep 13 - 03:08 AM

"IT STILL has NOT been proven, that Assad launched the strike."
There seems to be a little bunch of Assad fans here rather keen on casting doubt on Assad's culpability in using chemical weapons, despite that fact that this latest is only one of a claimed 15 such attacks.
It is almost certain that he carried out these attacks; he certainly has been openly slaughtering his people since the outbreak of the protests and he and his family have been slaughtering and torturing Syrians for generations to the full knowledge of the "Free World" who have fully co-operated with that behavior by supplying him with the wherewithal to carry it out and turning a blind eye while they did.

"While countries around the world condemned Syria for adding to its arsenal as most nations were eliminating their own, few challenged the buildup, and some were eager to profit from it."
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/08/world/middleeast/with-the-world-watching-syria-amassed-nerve-gas.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

Syria is only one of many despotic States to behave in this way and which have been a long-standing and valued customers of the arms trade.
Whatever the outcome of the present investigations, if they conclude in Assad being slapped on the wrist and told not to do it again, a return to normalcy will be more Homs and Allepo's and a continuing slaughter while the world stands by and watches.
Assad will have been the winner of this particular little skirmish and he will be able to get on with the job in hand.
Pity the old 'Carry On' team of film-makers aren't still around - they could have added "slaughtering" to their list of winners.
Having finally decided that enough is enough in Syria by drawing a rather hypocritical "red line" at the use of gas, peraps they might get around to looking at the murderous cynicism of selling any sort of weapons to states who have "dubious records" as that nice Mr Cable once described it - whoops, there goes that pig flying past the window again!.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Did CIA lunch the Sarin missile in Syria
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 13 Sep 13 - 06:46 PM

IT STILL has NOT been proven, that Assad launched the strike.

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Did CIA lunch the Sarin missile in Syria
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Sep 13 - 04:07 AM

Britain licensed sniper rifle ammunition to Syria
Deliberate lie.
You know it is not true.

Should Britain have refused to trade with every Arab country because they were all nasty repressive dictatorships?
You would then have accused us of racism!

In all your time on Mudcat, you have been serially and highly critical of one Mid East country but never posted a word against any of its Arab neighbours including Assad's Syria before the uprising.

You never before then objected to anyone trading with Syria or Egypt.


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Subject: RE: BS: Did CIA lunch the Sarin missile in Syria
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Sep 13 - 03:41 AM

"And when was tear gas last used by either US or UK?"
British tear gas was used on Egyptian protestors in 2011, in Turkey this year, and it has just been placed on the British police forces' "wish list" along with tasers according to today's papers.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2114601/Water-cannons-streets-months-Tear-gas-Tasers-police-wish-list-combat-riots.html
And still you defend Britain's appalling record of selling weapons and equipment to monsters.
"These licences all predate the conflict in Syria."
And you still defend Britain's trading chemical weapons to the country with;
"One of the worst human rights record in the world, second only to Korea"
The below report came out around the time Britain licensed sniper rifle ammunition to Syria and predated the sale of essential components for the manufacture of saran weapons by about eighteen months
Think I'd rather be "silly" than truly evil, as you appear to be.
Jim Carroll

"According to the 2008 report on human rights by the United States State Department, the Syrian government's "respect for human rights worsened". Members of the security forces arrested and detained individuals without providing just cause, often held prisoners in "lengthy pretrial and incommunicado detention", and "tortured and physically abused prisoners and detainees". The regime imposed significant restrictions on freedom of speech, press, assembly, and association, amid an atmosphere of government corruption.[15] According to Arab Press Freedom Watch, the current regime has one of the worst records on freedom of expression in the Arab world, second behind North Korea on Earth.[citation needed]According to Arab Press Network, "despite a generally repressive political climate", there were "signs of positive change," during the 2007 elections.[16] According to a 2008 report by Reporters without Borders, "Journalists have to tightly censor themselves for fear of being thrown into Adra Prison."[17]
In 2009 Syria was included in Freedom House's "Worst of the Worst" section and given a rating of 7 for Political Rights: and 6 for Civil Liberties.[18] According to Human Rights Watch, as of 2009 Syria's poor human rights situation had "deteriorated further". Authorities arrested political and human rights activists, censored websites, detained bloggers, and imposed travel bans. Syria's multiple security agencies continue to detain people without arrest warrants. No political parties were licensed and emergency rule, imposed in 1963, remained in effect.[1]"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Syria


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Subject: RE: BS: Did CIA lunch the Sarin missile in Syria
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 12 Sep 13 - 03:57 PM

I just hate when this happens...........right, AGAIN!!!

Now, as you WERE saying??????

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Did CIA lunch the Sarin missile in Syria
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Sep 13 - 03:51 PM

extract.
Mr Cable told Mr Stanley in a letter released, yesterday: "These licences all predate the conflict in Syria. They were is¬sued to two UK exporters for dispatch to two Syrian companies."
He added: "I am confident that each application was properly assessed to determine end
use and that the exports were for legitimate commercial pur¬poses, namely cosmetics and healthcare products. The volumes of sodium fluoride covered by these licences are consistent with commercial use."


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Subject: RE: BS: Did CIA lunch the Sarin missile in Syria
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Sep 13 - 03:20 PM

"Is there one single country in the whole world that does not have tear gas?"
So what - does that in any way excuse its use by Britain or America?

Er, yes.
It makes us no better or worse than anyone else in the world, so why single us out?

And when was tear gas last used by either US or UK?
And why are you so desperate to find some fault?
Prejudice.


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Subject: RE: BS: Did CIA lunch the Sarin missile in Syria
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Sep 13 - 03:02 PM

Another one to support - or deny

Irish Times 12.9.13

UK APPROVED SEVERAL CHEMICAL EXPORTS - Weapons link
RICHARD NORTON-TAYLOR in London

British officials approved the ex¬port to Syria of more chemicals that could be used to make sarin, a powerful nerve agent, than previously acknowledged, it has been revealed.
Five export licences were approved for the sale of more than 4,000kg of sodium fluoride between 2004 and 2010.
They were on top of exports approved last year of sodium fluoride and potassium fluoride under licences but subsequently revoked on the grounds they could be used as precursor chemicals in the manufacture of weapons.
The five licences were revealed by UK business secretary Vince Cable in a letter to Sir Robert Stanley, chairman of the House of Commons committee on export controls.
Mr Cable told Mr Stanley in a letter released, yesterday: "These licences all predate the conflict in Syria. They were is¬sued to two UK exporters for dispatch to two Syrian companies."
He added: "I am confident that each application was properly assessed to determine end
use and that the exports were for legitimate commercial pur¬poses, namely cosmetics and healthcare products. The volumes of sodium fluoride covered by these licences are consistent with commercial use."

No evidence
Mr Cable said there was no evidence that chemicals exported from the UK had been deployed in Syrian weapons programmes.
Mr Stanley has now asked Mr Cable to disclose the names of the British companies that exported, and the Syrian companies that imported the chemicals. He has also asked the business secretary to provide full details of the cosmetics and healthcare products "for which the sodium fluoride exported under these licences was apparently going to be used in Syria".
Mr Stanley last week asked Mr Cable to explain why the government approved export licences previously acknowledged in light of the statement by UK foreign secretary William Hague to the Commons committees that the government would not issue export licences "which might be used to facilitate internal repression".
(Guardian service)


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Subject: RE: BS: Did CIA lunch the Sarin missile in Syria
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Sep 13 - 12:02 PM

"Is there one single country in the whole world that does not have tear gas?"
So what - does that in any way excuse its use by Britain or America?
You even gave your blessing that it should be sold to Assad - please tell me that this wasn't your suggestion and that Jack Straw said it first!!
You haven't even bothered to comment on the listed effects of tear gas - does that mean that you deny them, you accept them, you don't give a toss either way what effect shit has on people's lives or health?
You described the stuff as "ubiquitous" now you are silent about its effects other than to claim "everybody does it".
Is that fact that most countries persecute and neglect Travellers an argument for Britain or Ireland continuing to do the same (which they both do)   
What's my point? I really don't have to make it - you are doing it perfectly for me.
You have defended every war crime, atrocity or act of humanity by Britain, Israel and America at one time or another on this thread - every single one that has been discussed.
It seems that war crimes and acts of inhumanity cease to be such when our 'chosen nations' do them.
It is one thing for us to throw up our hands in despair at our politicians and claim that what we think won't make a difference - we've all done that.
But it's quite another to lie, distort and misrepresent the facts in defence of acts of inhumanity as you have persistently done - added to which you never fail to back these defences with accusations of "liar", "leftie" "naive"... and other such shit.
You seem to have made it your life's work to support the worst aspects of humanity.
You are truely one of the most evil persons I have ever encountered.
I don't suppose you are going to give us an explanation of why you claimed tear gas to be ubiquitous - a lie to defend the West having and using it regularly or simply self-imposed ignorance _ I won't bother my arse waiting for an answer
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Did CIA lunch the Sarin missile in Syria
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 12 Sep 13 - 09:37 AM

Mayomick - agree!


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Subject: RE: BS: Did CIA lunch the Sarin missile in Syria
From: Ed T
Date: 12 Sep 13 - 09:29 AM

For consideration:FYI


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Subject: RE: BS: Did CIA lunch the Sarin missile in Syria
From: GUEST,mayomick
Date: 12 Sep 13 - 08:00 AM

Italian journalist Domenico Quirico and Belgian teacher Pierre Piccinin da Prata, who were kidnapped in Syria in April and released five days ago , have said in subsequent interviews that they believed the rebels were responsible for the gas attack .The two who described themselves as " fierce opponents" of Assad had originally visited Syria as supporters of what they saw as a legitimate uprising against the Syrian regime . The men were obviously deeply traumatized after being "treated like animals" by their hosts-turned-kidnappers .But their reports of an overheard conversation between their captors conducted in English on Skype and indicating that the rebels launched the attack to prompt Western forces to intervene , should in my opinion be given at least as much credibility as the unsupported assertions coming from the likes of John Kerry.


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Subject: RE: BS: Did CIA lunch the Sarin missile in Syria
From: GUEST,mayomick
Date: 12 Sep 13 - 07:26 AM

It's Teribus who is disputing that internationally agreed definition, Keith. It includes precursors. The convention was deliberately drafted so as to prevent the stockpiling of ingredients for CWs. Whoever drew up the brief description I quoted from must have had the dissembling defence of CWs coming from the likes of Teribus in mind.

Two quotes, the first from Teribus on 6 September :


"If US arms manufacturers sold weapons and exported WEAPONS to Saddam Hussein please provide details. You have specifically stated that chemical weapons were sold - please don't give a long list of component parts and materials which through some convoluted process might possibly be used as part of a weapon (Making chemical agents is easy, any facility that makes fertilizer can do it - weaponising those agents thankfully is extremely difficult)"

The second quote from the internationally recognized description of a CW :
"The term chemical weapon is applied to any toxic chemical or its precursor that can cause death, injury, temporary incapacitation or sensory irritation through its chemical action. Munitions or other delivery devices designed to deliver chemical weapons, whether filled or unfilled, are also considered weapons themselves."


The Halabja chemical attack occured on March 16, 1988 ,towards the end of the Iraq -Iran war . Iraqi chemical weapons killed between 3,200 and 5,000 Kurds and injured 7,000 to 10,000 more, most of them civilians.
According to the wiki entry on the attack:
"Among the chemical precursors provided to Iraq from American companies such as Alcolac International and Phillips was thiodiglycol, a substance needed to manufacture mustard gas, according to leaked portions of Iraq's "full, final and complete" disclosure of the sources for its weapons programs."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halabja_chemical_attack


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