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BS: Defective Thinkerator Syndrome (DTS)...

Bobert 05 Aug 13 - 08:14 PM
Rapparee 05 Aug 13 - 09:20 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 05 Aug 13 - 09:28 PM
Bobert 05 Aug 13 - 09:29 PM
Rapparee 05 Aug 13 - 09:32 PM
Janie 05 Aug 13 - 10:20 PM
GUEST,leeneia 06 Aug 13 - 11:41 AM
Bill D 06 Aug 13 - 12:58 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 06 Aug 13 - 01:17 PM
Dave the Gnome 06 Aug 13 - 01:22 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 06 Aug 13 - 01:44 PM
Dave the Gnome 06 Aug 13 - 01:53 PM
Bill D 06 Aug 13 - 02:04 PM
Don Firth 06 Aug 13 - 02:23 PM
Greg F. 06 Aug 13 - 02:28 PM
Amos 06 Aug 13 - 03:17 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 06 Aug 13 - 03:39 PM
GUEST,Musket evolving slowly 06 Aug 13 - 04:03 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 06 Aug 13 - 04:11 PM
Bill D 06 Aug 13 - 07:09 PM
GUEST,Chongo Chimp 06 Aug 13 - 07:10 PM
Bobert 06 Aug 13 - 07:22 PM
McGrath of Harlow 06 Aug 13 - 08:59 PM
Little Hawk 07 Aug 13 - 12:09 AM
Amos 07 Aug 13 - 12:10 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 07 Aug 13 - 12:27 AM
Dave the Gnome 07 Aug 13 - 04:30 AM
Amos 07 Aug 13 - 04:46 AM
Dave the Gnome 07 Aug 13 - 06:05 AM
McGrath of Harlow 07 Aug 13 - 06:55 AM
Dave the Gnome 07 Aug 13 - 08:12 AM
Bobert 07 Aug 13 - 08:57 AM
McGrath of Harlow 07 Aug 13 - 09:16 AM
Dave the Gnome 07 Aug 13 - 09:48 AM
Little Hawk 07 Aug 13 - 09:56 AM
Bobert 07 Aug 13 - 10:04 AM
GUEST,SJL 07 Aug 13 - 10:40 AM
Dave the Gnome 07 Aug 13 - 10:45 AM
Bobert 07 Aug 13 - 10:58 AM
Little Hawk 07 Aug 13 - 11:43 AM
Bill D 07 Aug 13 - 11:53 AM
Dave the Gnome 07 Aug 13 - 01:05 PM
Bobert 07 Aug 13 - 01:50 PM
GUEST,SJL 07 Aug 13 - 01:51 PM
Dave the Gnome 07 Aug 13 - 02:15 PM
Amos 07 Aug 13 - 03:31 PM
McGrath of Harlow 07 Aug 13 - 03:44 PM
Little Hawk 07 Aug 13 - 03:59 PM
Bobert 07 Aug 13 - 04:07 PM
Uncle_DaveO 07 Aug 13 - 05:40 PM
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Subject: BS: Defective Thinkerator Syndrome (DTS)...
From: Bobert
Date: 05 Aug 13 - 08:14 PM

Seems that there is a lot of irrational thinking going on here in the Catbox...

I mean, just check out the Zimmerman threads, and stand-your-ground threads...

No matter...

I think we need to defeat it before it spins out of control and with Max out of commission that could bring everything down on top of us...

So, people, if you think (?) that you are suffering from DTS then don't post...

K???

B;~)


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Subject: RE: BS: Defective Thinkerator Syndrome (DTS)...
From: Rapparee
Date: 05 Aug 13 - 09:20 PM

Why do you think it's just here?


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Subject: RE: BS: Defective Thinkerator Syndrome (DTS)...
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 05 Aug 13 - 09:28 PM

Robot: "Seems that there is a lot of irrational thinking going on here in the Catbox...
I mean, just check out the Zimmerman threads, and stand-your-ground threads..."

Right!!! There is some idiots who are accusing everybody else, who doesn't agree with him, that they belong to the KKK...and he's got a friend who knows more of what went on than the witnesses or the jury!!

I agree!..Pretty irrational!!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Defective Thinkerator Syndrome (DTS)...
From: Bobert
Date: 05 Aug 13 - 09:29 PM

Okay...

Let's just say that if you are suffering from DTS then I'd say that the nearest cliff is all you need and your "jump suit"...

Bye...

B;~)


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Subject: RE: BS: Defective Thinkerator Syndrome (DTS)...
From: Rapparee
Date: 05 Aug 13 - 09:32 PM

DTS spelled backwards is STD.


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Subject: RE: BS: Defective Thinkerator Syndrome (DTS)...
From: Janie
Date: 05 Aug 13 - 10:20 PM

Love you, Beaubear (and when am I gonna get the 7 muses to you guys?) but this thread should go away.


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Subject: RE: BS: Defective Thinkerator Syndrome (DTS)...
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 06 Aug 13 - 11:41 AM

I've noticed that! Start a thread on the hottest new act of sex or violence, and you'll get lots of response. Start a thread that involves playing a piece of music (or even just listening to one), and the silence is deafening.


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Subject: RE: BS: Defective Thinkerator Syndrome (DTS)...
From: Bill D
Date: 06 Aug 13 - 12:58 PM

DTS? wow... a real problem!

Perhaps I should start my long-planned, but so far only in the planning stages, thread on "How to Think"! I'm sure that once I lay out the basic principles and clarify some classic errors, it will ensure that only well-reasoned & relevant responses to significant issues will be employed by all.


hmmm? what?

Oh.... yes, I know what "fat chance" means....


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Subject: RE: BS: Defective Thinkerator Syndrome (DTS)...
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 06 Aug 13 - 01:17 PM

Brilliant idea Bill!
Ya' think the 'usual suspects' will revolve around the usual worn out political talking points..or do ya' think that in the course of THINKING, some may 'evolve' above that???
I'm sure it may be hard for some, much like breaking an addiction to lazy thinking!!!....which is a breakdown of the independent thought process....by letting others do your thinking FOR you, and just repeating what sounds pithy, in an effort to sound 'astute'!

Regards,

GfS

P.S. Jeez, it may even be a catalyst to break some of their creative writing blocks!! We NEED more independent thinkers, and those thoughts put to music!!!!!!!!....it might be contagious, and get others to THINK for themselves(not about themselves), for a much needed CHANGE!


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Subject: RE: BS: Defective Thinkerator Syndrome (DTS)...
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Aug 13 - 01:22 PM

I find it a little scary that those who say they believe in free thinking are telling us how we should think. Anyone who believes that they can run the minds or lives of others can't be a full shilling, surely?

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Defective Thinkerator Syndrome (DTS)...
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 06 Aug 13 - 01:44 PM

What's even worse is those who DON'T believe in 'free thinking' tell you/us WHAT to think!
Intelligence is the ability to process information. It is up to each and everyone of us to keep our filters clean, as to allow more information to flow through, freely, to be processed.
Fair enough?

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Defective Thinkerator Syndrome (DTS)...
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Aug 13 - 01:53 PM

What happens when that filter gets so contaminated with shit that it can no longer keep the information flowing freely? What if we do keep the filters clean to process the information and, even when it is coated in sugar, we can still tell the information is shit? Why are so many people telling us that shit is sugar and insisting that when we tell them so we are no longer thinking freely?

For answers to all these questions and more, keep tuned in to the Mudcat soap hour...


DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Defective Thinkerator Syndrome (DTS)...
From: Bill D
Date: 06 Aug 13 - 02:04 PM

Trouble is, "free thinking" ain't really free. Oh, it doesn't cost shillings.. or dollars... but costs time, dedication, honesty, observation, 'openness'...etc, and requires not only awareness *OF* the thinking of others, but also requires taking their thinking with "a grain of salt" while not totally rejecting it.

There are RULES to 'good thinking', some of which are absolute, and some of which are inductive and seemingly counter-intuitive at times. It requires you (to quote my old Phenomenology professor) to "run around behind yourself" at times and try to observe your own behavior and motives from a neutral perspective. Mostly impossible, but the very exercise in trying gives certain insights....

It is much easier to find a position and a set of prejudices and pontificate about it. One part of the 'position' is never backing down, lest you have admit you hadn't followed the rules...

Ummmm... so, that's why I have not started my thread. It takes so long to list all the disclaimers that 99.467% of everyone who needs the rules gets bored early on and reverts to the easy routine.

Besides...I'm lazy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Defective Thinkerator Syndrome (DTS)...
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 Aug 13 - 02:23 PM

Well, there is this system of thought that those funny ol' Greeks who used to run around in their bedsheets and sandals came up with.

It's called "logic."

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Defective Thinkerator Syndrome (DTS)...
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Aug 13 - 02:28 PM

LOGIC?

Yer kiddin', right amigo?


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Subject: RE: BS: Defective Thinkerator Syndrome (DTS)...
From: Amos
Date: 06 Aug 13 - 03:17 PM

Logic is inherently a bit arbitrary, or at least capable of being applied in arbitrary ways. It's fine within its own premises, but those premises may not uniformly cleave to the scope of realty itself. And when thinking parts ways with reality, why, anything is possible.

The human thinkerator is easily bamboozled when it fails to notice certain aspects of the data it is trying to use. Some people, for example, get a fixed idea andf can't even perceive that they are holding on to contrary data. Misassessment of importance between different data points is another blind spot that leaves people completely certain that their SHih-Tzu is of more importance than a nuclear threat showdown between France and China. Understanding wqhat makes something important, moreso or less-so, is a rare talent. This is what leaves people screaming about starlet's bra colors while ignoring planetary climate deterioration, for example.The other talent that sometimes seems missing in broken thinkerators is the ability to assess how true a dastum actually is, or how probable. THis produces, for example, wild-ass trumpeting of complete baderdash presented as "true".

There are probably no more than a dozen of these key patterns of thinkerator breakdown, but they sure are widely distributed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Defective Thinkerator Syndrome (DTS)...
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 06 Aug 13 - 03:39 PM

Bill D: "Trouble is, "free thinking" ain't really free. Oh, it doesn't cost shillings.. or dollars... but costs time, dedication, honesty, observation, 'openness'...etc,..."

In other words, 'Life'.

Why should anyone relegate their thinking, to someone else, who may have a hidden agenda, that does not serve the purpose of your own well being???
Sure, you might take in the thoughts of others..some of those thoughts may stimulate deeper thoughts or verify something that you may have thought about as a hunch.
Right now, there is a lot of 'political ideas' out there, that some people are pushing. Need you subscribe to any or all of them, without checking them against known facts??..or do you give up rational thought, just to be in sync with the mob?
When you are in the 'creative' process, do you just reiterate that which has been said a bazzilion times, and then 'call' it 'creative'???....or can you reach into the unseen collective consciousness, and define something in a way that is grasped in a new way, that sheds 'new' light on a subject?
Are you content to be herded like cattle(or Robot's 'herd of turtles'), and say NOTHING, as to the direction that the herd is heading..including off a cliff???
Sometimes, just to hold up a thing of 'beauty' is statement in itself..being as 'ugly' seems to be the rule of the day!
Why would anyone be opposed to free thinking?...unless you don't think you can, or your addicted to being programmed??
Ask any ideologue. Most of them are not capable of an original thought...unless it's an excuse, for being called on their horse shit!

Just a thought........
By the way....the most powerful things on the planet, are 'thoughts'..and yet so overlooked!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Defective Thinkerator Syndrome (DTS)...
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 06 Aug 13 - 04:03 PM

Dave. Leave them to their own devices long enough and they may just develop a culture.
Why the hang up folks? Some people are open and candid. Some use wit and irony and some are neither American nor British. ..

As ever, I bow to the experience of Goofus when it comes to irrational thinking.


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Subject: RE: BS: Defective Thinkerator Syndrome (DTS)...
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 06 Aug 13 - 04:11 PM

Aww..just try thinking, at all...you might find it a new, likable experience!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Defective Thinkerator Syndrome (DTS)...
From: Bill D
Date: 06 Aug 13 - 07:09 PM

GfS...

"...In other words, 'Life'."

Hmmm? There's plenty to/of life without the positive things I listed.

"Why should anyone relegate their thinking, to someone else, who may have a hidden agenda, that does not serve the purpose of your own well being???"

I'm sorry, but I can't be sure what you are saying. Are you asserting that "the purpose of your own well being" is always the prime concern? And what, exactly, do you mean by 'relegate'?

=====================

Amos:

"Logic is inherently a bit arbitrary, or at least capable of being applied in arbitrary ways. It's fine within its own premises, but those premises may not uniformly cleave to the scope of realty itself. And when thinking parts ways with reality, why, anything is possible."

The scope of that is either not really true, or is trivially true. Logic is not really arbitrary...if it is 'applied in an arbitrary way'
it sorta ceases being...umm... logical. The word that seems to be arbitrary is 'reality', as we both approach that topic a bit differently. The only thought that your last sentence reminds me of is my oft stated: "From false premises, anything follows."

" Misassessment of importance between different data points..." is the very essence of arbitrary in many cases. In scientific measurement it IS a problem... in working out social or political ideas, it is what is at issue. Even identifying a data point can be a sticking point. (Mid-East troubles.. who hit who first...or deserved it.)

Thinkerators need to be able to at least state the point of view of others or arguing the details just becomes an exercise in dissembling and rationalization.


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Subject: RE: BS: Defective Thinkerator Syndrome (DTS)...
From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp
Date: 06 Aug 13 - 07:10 PM

I knew it was you, Bobertz, soon's I saw the thread title. "defective thinkerator"? Yup, gotta be Bobertz! Matter of fact, Bobertz, I could see that yer thinkerator had some pretty clear defects the first time I met you, but I didn't say nothin', cos I didn't want to be rude. Besides, I have met apes with defective thinkerators too. It's no reason to go judgin' someone, right?

- Chongo


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Subject: RE: BS: Defective Thinkerator Syndrome (DTS)...
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Aug 13 - 07:22 PM

That's BS, Chongz... I mean, you didn't mind taking a big steamy monkey dump in the corner of my office but...

...you didn't want to offend me???

Get real, Chongz...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Defective Thinkerator Syndrome (DTS)...
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Aug 13 - 08:59 PM

The basic point of involving yourself in an online discussion needs to be, not to try to convince other people who disagree with you (you are never going to do that) but to clarify what you yourself think, and find out more about what other people think. There is also the matter of getting relevant information, but the Mudcat isn't the best place for tht. Except of course above the line, where it is.


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Subject: RE: BS: Defective Thinkerator Syndrome (DTS)...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 12:09 AM

"The basic point of involving yourself in an online discussion needs to be, not to try to convince other people who disagree with you (you are never going to do that) but to clarify what you yourself think, and find out more about what other people think."

Exactly! Well said, McGrath.


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Subject: RE: BS: Defective Thinkerator Syndrome (DTS)...
From: Amos
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 12:10 AM

Bill:

Ah, lemme think. So you think there is only oneset of logic, which is universally binding??

Ahmmmmm. I'd like to stay up late pursuing that rather lengthy discussion.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Defective Thinkerator Syndrome (DTS)...
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 12:27 AM

Amos: "Ah, lemme think....."

SUCCESS!!!!

But Amos has a head start....

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Defective Thinkerator Syndrome (DTS)...
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 04:30 AM

So, having thought, studied and kept my filters clean, I believe I now have the measure of this thread. It's having another go at people who disagree with some of the posters. Basically, the age old tactic of discredit your opponents. If my thought process does not arrive at the same conclusion as others, my 'thinkerator' is defective. Yes? Well, sorry, but the only defective thinking around here is the belief that no-one would see though it.

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Defective Thinkerator Syndrome (DTS)...
From: Amos
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 04:46 AM

WEll, Dave, it's either (a)different facts (b)a matter of opinion or (c)a broken thinkerator.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Defective Thinkerator Syndrome (DTS)...
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 06:05 AM

Sorry, Amos. Because a conclusion is different it does not mean the thought process is broken. I will accept Different Thinkerator Syndrome but definitely not defective. If we accept that someone's brain is defective because they have an opposing viewpoint then where do we take it from there? Giving them no voice? Not letting them vote? Selective culling?

I believe the whole principle is a bag of shit and if that makes my 'thinkerator' defective in your eyes then so be it. I give thanks that you are not in a position of power.

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Defective Thinkerator Syndrome (DTS)...
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 06:55 AM

"Measure of this thread". Do threads have a measure? Someon starts a thread because they want ti say something, and it goes off on its own after that, quite. Possibly in a direction quite different from what the initial poster had in mind.


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Subject: RE: BS: Defective Thinkerator Syndrome (DTS)...
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 08:12 AM

Kevin, when someone starts a thread on the premise that other peoples brains are defective there is only one direction to go. Down. The motive may have been otherwise but it is fair to say that such a premise can be, and usually is, used to demean others.

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Defective Thinkerator Syndrome (DTS)...
From: Bobert
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 08:57 AM

This is funny...

Did it ever occur to ya'll that I started this thread just for a few smiles and giggles???

I mean, folks way to serious and in the words of a drunk John Riggins to former Supreme Court Justice Sandra Day O'Conner, "Ya' gotta lighten' up, baby"...

B;~)


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Subject: RE: BS: Defective Thinkerator Syndrome (DTS)...
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 09:16 AM

Naah - if we don't keep it solemn the roof might fall in.


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Subject: RE: BS: Defective Thinkerator Syndrome (DTS)...
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 09:48 AM

What really IS funny is the way that people are quick to tell us something was ironic or meant as joke when brought to task for ridiculous statements but never seem to notice when others are joking :-)

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Defective Thinkerator Syndrome (DTS)...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 09:56 AM

Meanwhile, Chongo pours another drink and ponders the latest unsolved case in the growing pile of papers on his desk. WHO killed Ollie Chambers? Where is his head? And can Mrs Chambers' toy poodle be trusted as a material witness?


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Subject: RE: BS: Defective Thinkerator Syndrome (DTS)...
From: Bobert
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 10:04 AM

Lighten up, Dave... You are trying to score points on a thread that isn't a sports event... Plenty of sports events out there for intense points scoring...

I mean, maybe you can learn something from the monkey... Pour another drink...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Defective Thinkerator Syndrome (DTS)...
From: GUEST,SJL
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 10:40 AM

Don, this might be a good time to bring up Socrates. You may recall we were discussing Socrates' take on democracy. You cited (second hand) accounts that showed Socrates' had a distain for democracy and other quotes attributed to him that showed he favored Plato's rule of philosopher kings. That might have been true at one time but how about near his time of death? That's trouble with recording what people say at any given time. As someone's thoughts and opinions and beliefs change, it can be misleading to quote them. But we can infer some things about Socrates if we use our heads.

Socrates was the grand master of critical thinking and therefore did not care for the sophists whose teaching relied upon convention. These were the teachers, who like Harvard professors, were employed by the aristocracy to give their children what was, in Socrates opinion, a mediocre education consisting of the ability to argue brilliantly whilst spewing rhetoric (like just about every politcian we know), one that was unworthy of a class of philosopher kings. So, doesn't it seem that this allegation of corrupting the youth of Athens stemmed from Socrates differences with the sophists regarding the educational goals and methods? The driving force behind Socrates' teaching methods, which was so distinctive that it is called the "Socratic Method" was ethics and involved relentless questioning of what we and others think we know.

Therefore, I believe Socrates was the "radical professor" and unhappily so because he must have realized by the end of his life that the society he had dreamed of, a republic ruled by a wise and ethical oligarchy of philosophers, was not happening. For one thing, while being the sort who was willing to teach anyone willing to learn from him without demanding money, he was effectively deprived of his pupils. His dream was shattered while democracy proved to be a civilized form of mob rule in his case. Did you ever consider how few laws we'd need if ethics were emphasized in education? The main flaw in science is that, since Descartes, it favors a paradigm in which ethics are irrelevant. This is something that Einstein stressed throughout his life.


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Subject: RE: BS: Defective Thinkerator Syndrome (DTS)...
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 10:45 AM

No points involved at all, Bobert. I find the whole premise pointless :-) I did notice your 'wink' smiley but there are a few people on here that seem to think you were serious. Just look up the thread.

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Defective Thinkerator Syndrome (DTS)...
From: Bobert
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 10:58 AM

Whatever, Dave...

There is no thread that can be started that some folks ain't gonna like...

That's the nature of this joint...

Had I really been serious I doubt I would have used the word "thinkerator", which BTW, is meant to be humorous...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Defective Thinkerator Syndrome (DTS)...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 11:43 AM

Very well, said, SJL. I had intended to discuss the same things with Don awhile back regarding Socrates. I don't think his death was in any way due to him "threatening democracy", but rather to him embarrassing the conventional minds of his time by showing them up to be, in short, a bunch of conformist dullards. He rocked their comfy little boat of conventional thinking, woke up their young people to consider new ideas, and they didn't like it, so they killed him, thereby murdering an innocent man, and a far better man than themselves.

A civilized form of mob rule may appear to be democracy or legal propriety...but it is actually a grand failure of both ethics and vision. It was a similarly "civilized" form of mob rule that condemned both Jesus (Yeshua) and Joan of Arc to death: all quite legal and proper by the rules of the day, yet utterly unjust in consequence.


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Subject: RE: BS: Defective Thinkerator Syndrome (DTS)...
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 11:53 AM

(Amos) "Ah, lemme think....."
Oh sure.. be my guest...

"So you think there is only oneset of logic, which is universally binding??"

'Set'? There are different types of 'reasoning' that are called logic, according to what is at issue. The very term can be, like 'folk' to music, applied to stuff that suits a specific agenda. "Informal logic" is not what I was referring to. (I hasten to say I am NOT an expert on the intricacies of the categories. I ordinarily limit my concern to the internal consistencies of language and 'formal' logic coupled with 'informal fallacies.)

"Ahmmmmm. I'd like to stay up late pursuing that rather lengthy discussion."

Might be possible.... first four hours devoted to agreeing on definitions?

""Give me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe." - Abraham Lincoln


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Subject: RE: BS: Defective Thinkerator Syndrome (DTS)...
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 01:05 PM

Whatever indeed, Bobert.

Funnily enough I agree about the irrational thinking. We can best help the situation by forcible removal of the frontal lobe of everyone who likes American folk music. We just need a jolly brain removerator and all these problems would be solved.

Are we having fun yet?

:D tG


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Subject: RE: BS: Defective Thinkerator Syndrome (DTS)...
From: Bobert
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 01:50 PM

I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy...

B;~)


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Subject: RE: BS: Defective Thinkerator Syndrome (DTS)...
From: GUEST,SJL
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 01:51 PM

Thanks Little Hawk. Now apply the above thoughts to a discussion on another thread where I have been conversing with Steve Shaw on the merits of "Evolution vs. Intelligent Design." Steve maintains that it would be damaging, even dangerous, to teach anything but the "right" information. He doesn't trust students to come to the "right" conclusions if they are exposed to a competing theory. This is something that you will always find in state sponsored education because the state's objective is always thought control. We all know what happens to teachers who teach competing or "controversial" theories or points of view. In this way, public schools reject critical thinking in favor of spoon feeding students "correct" information which they must subsequently regurgitate, barely chewed, to prove that they "know" it. If you get a teacher like Socrates, you're likely to get he or she as a professor in college where there is more academic freedom.


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Subject: RE: BS: Defective Thinkerator Syndrome (DTS)...
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 02:15 PM

I don't believe that Steve is against informing students of competing theories. As I understand it he is against teaching creationism as if it is either the truth or as valid as evolution. If it is put across along the lines of 'people used to think the earth was flat and that god made it. But now there is scientific evidence to the contrary' I am sure there would be no issue. It is when teachers try to force a child into believing that the earth is flat and god made it that is tantamount to child abuse.

But I am sure he can speak for himself and probably will :-)

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Defective Thinkerator Syndrome (DTS)...
From: Amos
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 03:31 PM

You could toss creationsim, voodoo, jujuuu, and Blavatsky into the curriculum with no harm to the student IF you took the trouble first to instill clear concepts and the ability to recognize:
1. Facts
2. Opinions
3. Factual sequence and consequence
4. Hypotheses
5. Speculation
6. Contradictions, explicit and implicit
7. Data
8. Distortions of data including falsity, exaggeration, omission of context, distortion of sequence, and distortion of relative importance.
9. Relative importance of data compared to other data.

Maybe a few other things. But a student armed with these skills and understandings could chew through all the superstition in the world without being fazed.


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Defective Thinkerator Syndrome (DTS)...
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 03:44 PM

That's not education, Dave, it's drill. "This is what you will think. Platoon 'shun!"

There's rather a lot of it about.


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Subject: RE: BS: Defective Thinkerator Syndrome (DTS)...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 03:59 PM

Yes, SJL. I am familiar with Steve's general approach. I have come to the conclusion that there's not much use talking to him about it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Defective Thinkerator Syndrome (DTS)...
From: Bobert
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 04:07 PM

Giving a student choices when they have not been taught to think critically is insane...

Think about it this way... What if a person had never seen either a gun or a transistor radio and knew nothing about what either did for a living... Now these same people were asked to pick which one they would choose to put in the crib with their baby...

Hmmmmmm???

The Scopes Trail was a long time ago, BTW... I thought that argument had been litigated back then??? No???

(Well, it was, Boberdz... That was before Tin Foil Nation gained a toe hold on public policy...)

You mean, like the Taliban???

(Well, yeah... You could say that...)

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Defective Thinkerator Syndrome (DTS)...
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 05:40 PM

I'm sure someone will correct me (and quickly too!) if I'm mistaken,
but I think I remember that Scopes was convicted as charged.

We (really "I") like to think of the result as a victory for
scientific-based thinking because Scopes's attorney pretty much
destroyed the main prosecuting lawyer/witness, making him look extremely foolish and effectively ending his possibilities of achieving the presidency he and his admirers thought he had in
his pocket.

Am I all wet? If so, tell me so.

Dave Oesterreich


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