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BS: Defective Thinkerator Syndrome (DTS)...

Bobert 05 Aug 13 - 08:14 PM
Rapparee 05 Aug 13 - 09:20 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 05 Aug 13 - 09:28 PM
Bobert 05 Aug 13 - 09:29 PM
Rapparee 05 Aug 13 - 09:32 PM
Janie 05 Aug 13 - 10:20 PM
GUEST,leeneia 06 Aug 13 - 11:41 AM
Bill D 06 Aug 13 - 12:58 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 06 Aug 13 - 01:17 PM
Dave the Gnome 06 Aug 13 - 01:22 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 06 Aug 13 - 01:44 PM
Dave the Gnome 06 Aug 13 - 01:53 PM
Bill D 06 Aug 13 - 02:04 PM
Don Firth 06 Aug 13 - 02:23 PM
Greg F. 06 Aug 13 - 02:28 PM
Amos 06 Aug 13 - 03:17 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 06 Aug 13 - 03:39 PM
GUEST,Musket evolving slowly 06 Aug 13 - 04:03 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 06 Aug 13 - 04:11 PM
Bill D 06 Aug 13 - 07:09 PM
GUEST,Chongo Chimp 06 Aug 13 - 07:10 PM
Bobert 06 Aug 13 - 07:22 PM
McGrath of Harlow 06 Aug 13 - 08:59 PM
Little Hawk 07 Aug 13 - 12:09 AM
Amos 07 Aug 13 - 12:10 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 07 Aug 13 - 12:27 AM
Dave the Gnome 07 Aug 13 - 04:30 AM
Amos 07 Aug 13 - 04:46 AM
Dave the Gnome 07 Aug 13 - 06:05 AM
McGrath of Harlow 07 Aug 13 - 06:55 AM
Dave the Gnome 07 Aug 13 - 08:12 AM
Bobert 07 Aug 13 - 08:57 AM
McGrath of Harlow 07 Aug 13 - 09:16 AM
Dave the Gnome 07 Aug 13 - 09:48 AM
Little Hawk 07 Aug 13 - 09:56 AM
Bobert 07 Aug 13 - 10:04 AM
GUEST,SJL 07 Aug 13 - 10:40 AM
Dave the Gnome 07 Aug 13 - 10:45 AM
Bobert 07 Aug 13 - 10:58 AM
Little Hawk 07 Aug 13 - 11:43 AM
Bill D 07 Aug 13 - 11:53 AM
Dave the Gnome 07 Aug 13 - 01:05 PM
Bobert 07 Aug 13 - 01:50 PM
GUEST,SJL 07 Aug 13 - 01:51 PM
Dave the Gnome 07 Aug 13 - 02:15 PM
Amos 07 Aug 13 - 03:31 PM
McGrath of Harlow 07 Aug 13 - 03:44 PM
Little Hawk 07 Aug 13 - 03:59 PM
Bobert 07 Aug 13 - 04:07 PM
Uncle_DaveO 07 Aug 13 - 05:40 PM
Bill D 07 Aug 13 - 06:52 PM
Little Hawk 07 Aug 13 - 06:54 PM
GUEST,SJL 07 Aug 13 - 07:03 PM
Little Hawk 07 Aug 13 - 07:16 PM
Don Firth 07 Aug 13 - 07:55 PM
Bill D 07 Aug 13 - 07:55 PM
Greg F. 07 Aug 13 - 08:19 PM
McGrath of Harlow 07 Aug 13 - 09:25 PM
GUEST,SJL 07 Aug 13 - 09:50 PM
Bill D 07 Aug 13 - 10:39 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 08 Aug 13 - 02:33 AM
Dave the Gnome 08 Aug 13 - 02:59 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 08 Aug 13 - 03:33 AM
Dave the Gnome 08 Aug 13 - 04:22 AM
Dave the Gnome 08 Aug 13 - 05:57 AM
McGrath of Harlow 08 Aug 13 - 07:20 AM
Dave the Gnome 08 Aug 13 - 08:32 AM
Little Hawk 08 Aug 13 - 09:51 AM
Dave the Gnome 08 Aug 13 - 10:11 AM
Greg F. 08 Aug 13 - 10:16 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 08 Aug 13 - 10:21 AM
Little Hawk 08 Aug 13 - 10:45 AM
GUEST,leeneia 08 Aug 13 - 11:57 AM
GUEST,Musket musing 08 Aug 13 - 12:15 PM
Dave the Gnome 08 Aug 13 - 12:28 PM
Greg F. 08 Aug 13 - 01:10 PM
McGrath of Harlow 08 Aug 13 - 01:44 PM
Little Hawk 08 Aug 13 - 03:48 PM
McGrath of Harlow 08 Aug 13 - 04:35 PM
Dave the Gnome 09 Aug 13 - 03:11 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 10 Aug 13 - 12:06 AM
GUEST,SJL 10 Aug 13 - 01:16 AM
Dave the Gnome 10 Aug 13 - 05:16 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 10 Aug 13 - 11:25 AM
GUEST,SJL 10 Aug 13 - 02:49 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 10 Aug 13 - 03:16 PM
GUEST,SJL 10 Aug 13 - 05:25 PM
Bobert 10 Aug 13 - 10:08 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 11 Aug 13 - 02:54 AM
Don Firth 11 Aug 13 - 02:50 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 12 Aug 13 - 12:17 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 12 Aug 13 - 12:18 AM
Bill D 12 Aug 13 - 11:18 AM
Bobert 12 Aug 13 - 12:56 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 12 Aug 13 - 01:55 PM
Don Firth 12 Aug 13 - 04:44 PM
Amos 12 Aug 13 - 10:08 PM
Dave the Gnome 13 Aug 13 - 03:39 AM
Greg F. 13 Aug 13 - 08:30 AM
Dave the Gnome 13 Aug 13 - 08:32 AM
Dave the Gnome 13 Aug 13 - 08:36 AM
Bobert 13 Aug 13 - 08:56 AM
Bill D 13 Aug 13 - 10:00 AM
Greg F. 13 Aug 13 - 10:11 AM
Dave the Gnome 13 Aug 13 - 10:23 AM
Bobert 13 Aug 13 - 10:30 AM
Bill D 13 Aug 13 - 11:39 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 14 Aug 13 - 01:57 AM
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Subject: BS: Defective Thinkerator Syndrome (DTS)...
From: Bobert
Date: 05 Aug 13 - 08:14 PM

Seems that there is a lot of irrational thinking going on here in the Catbox...

I mean, just check out the Zimmerman threads, and stand-your-ground threads...

No matter...

I think we need to defeat it before it spins out of control and with Max out of commission that could bring everything down on top of us...

So, people, if you think (?) that you are suffering from DTS then don't post...

K???

B;~)


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Subject: RE: BS: Defective Thinkerator Syndrome (DTS)...
From: Rapparee
Date: 05 Aug 13 - 09:20 PM

Why do you think it's just here?


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Subject: RE: BS: Defective Thinkerator Syndrome (DTS)...
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 05 Aug 13 - 09:28 PM

Robot: "Seems that there is a lot of irrational thinking going on here in the Catbox...
I mean, just check out the Zimmerman threads, and stand-your-ground threads..."

Right!!! There is some idiots who are accusing everybody else, who doesn't agree with him, that they belong to the KKK...and he's got a friend who knows more of what went on than the witnesses or the jury!!

I agree!..Pretty irrational!!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Defective Thinkerator Syndrome (DTS)...
From: Bobert
Date: 05 Aug 13 - 09:29 PM

Okay...

Let's just say that if you are suffering from DTS then I'd say that the nearest cliff is all you need and your "jump suit"...

Bye...

B;~)


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Subject: RE: BS: Defective Thinkerator Syndrome (DTS)...
From: Rapparee
Date: 05 Aug 13 - 09:32 PM

DTS spelled backwards is STD.


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Subject: RE: BS: Defective Thinkerator Syndrome (DTS)...
From: Janie
Date: 05 Aug 13 - 10:20 PM

Love you, Beaubear (and when am I gonna get the 7 muses to you guys?) but this thread should go away.


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Subject: RE: BS: Defective Thinkerator Syndrome (DTS)...
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 06 Aug 13 - 11:41 AM

I've noticed that! Start a thread on the hottest new act of sex or violence, and you'll get lots of response. Start a thread that involves playing a piece of music (or even just listening to one), and the silence is deafening.


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Subject: RE: BS: Defective Thinkerator Syndrome (DTS)...
From: Bill D
Date: 06 Aug 13 - 12:58 PM

DTS? wow... a real problem!

Perhaps I should start my long-planned, but so far only in the planning stages, thread on "How to Think"! I'm sure that once I lay out the basic principles and clarify some classic errors, it will ensure that only well-reasoned & relevant responses to significant issues will be employed by all.


hmmm? what?

Oh.... yes, I know what "fat chance" means....


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Subject: RE: BS: Defective Thinkerator Syndrome (DTS)...
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 06 Aug 13 - 01:17 PM

Brilliant idea Bill!
Ya' think the 'usual suspects' will revolve around the usual worn out political talking points..or do ya' think that in the course of THINKING, some may 'evolve' above that???
I'm sure it may be hard for some, much like breaking an addiction to lazy thinking!!!....which is a breakdown of the independent thought process....by letting others do your thinking FOR you, and just repeating what sounds pithy, in an effort to sound 'astute'!

Regards,

GfS

P.S. Jeez, it may even be a catalyst to break some of their creative writing blocks!! We NEED more independent thinkers, and those thoughts put to music!!!!!!!!....it might be contagious, and get others to THINK for themselves(not about themselves), for a much needed CHANGE!


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Subject: RE: BS: Defective Thinkerator Syndrome (DTS)...
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Aug 13 - 01:22 PM

I find it a little scary that those who say they believe in free thinking are telling us how we should think. Anyone who believes that they can run the minds or lives of others can't be a full shilling, surely?

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Defective Thinkerator Syndrome (DTS)...
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 06 Aug 13 - 01:44 PM

What's even worse is those who DON'T believe in 'free thinking' tell you/us WHAT to think!
Intelligence is the ability to process information. It is up to each and everyone of us to keep our filters clean, as to allow more information to flow through, freely, to be processed.
Fair enough?

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Defective Thinkerator Syndrome (DTS)...
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Aug 13 - 01:53 PM

What happens when that filter gets so contaminated with shit that it can no longer keep the information flowing freely? What if we do keep the filters clean to process the information and, even when it is coated in sugar, we can still tell the information is shit? Why are so many people telling us that shit is sugar and insisting that when we tell them so we are no longer thinking freely?

For answers to all these questions and more, keep tuned in to the Mudcat soap hour...


DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Defective Thinkerator Syndrome (DTS)...
From: Bill D
Date: 06 Aug 13 - 02:04 PM

Trouble is, "free thinking" ain't really free. Oh, it doesn't cost shillings.. or dollars... but costs time, dedication, honesty, observation, 'openness'...etc, and requires not only awareness *OF* the thinking of others, but also requires taking their thinking with "a grain of salt" while not totally rejecting it.

There are RULES to 'good thinking', some of which are absolute, and some of which are inductive and seemingly counter-intuitive at times. It requires you (to quote my old Phenomenology professor) to "run around behind yourself" at times and try to observe your own behavior and motives from a neutral perspective. Mostly impossible, but the very exercise in trying gives certain insights....

It is much easier to find a position and a set of prejudices and pontificate about it. One part of the 'position' is never backing down, lest you have admit you hadn't followed the rules...

Ummmm... so, that's why I have not started my thread. It takes so long to list all the disclaimers that 99.467% of everyone who needs the rules gets bored early on and reverts to the easy routine.

Besides...I'm lazy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Defective Thinkerator Syndrome (DTS)...
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 Aug 13 - 02:23 PM

Well, there is this system of thought that those funny ol' Greeks who used to run around in their bedsheets and sandals came up with.

It's called "logic."

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Defective Thinkerator Syndrome (DTS)...
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Aug 13 - 02:28 PM

LOGIC?

Yer kiddin', right amigo?


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Subject: RE: BS: Defective Thinkerator Syndrome (DTS)...
From: Amos
Date: 06 Aug 13 - 03:17 PM

Logic is inherently a bit arbitrary, or at least capable of being applied in arbitrary ways. It's fine within its own premises, but those premises may not uniformly cleave to the scope of realty itself. And when thinking parts ways with reality, why, anything is possible.

The human thinkerator is easily bamboozled when it fails to notice certain aspects of the data it is trying to use. Some people, for example, get a fixed idea andf can't even perceive that they are holding on to contrary data. Misassessment of importance between different data points is another blind spot that leaves people completely certain that their SHih-Tzu is of more importance than a nuclear threat showdown between France and China. Understanding wqhat makes something important, moreso or less-so, is a rare talent. This is what leaves people screaming about starlet's bra colors while ignoring planetary climate deterioration, for example.The other talent that sometimes seems missing in broken thinkerators is the ability to assess how true a dastum actually is, or how probable. THis produces, for example, wild-ass trumpeting of complete baderdash presented as "true".

There are probably no more than a dozen of these key patterns of thinkerator breakdown, but they sure are widely distributed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Defective Thinkerator Syndrome (DTS)...
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 06 Aug 13 - 03:39 PM

Bill D: "Trouble is, "free thinking" ain't really free. Oh, it doesn't cost shillings.. or dollars... but costs time, dedication, honesty, observation, 'openness'...etc,..."

In other words, 'Life'.

Why should anyone relegate their thinking, to someone else, who may have a hidden agenda, that does not serve the purpose of your own well being???
Sure, you might take in the thoughts of others..some of those thoughts may stimulate deeper thoughts or verify something that you may have thought about as a hunch.
Right now, there is a lot of 'political ideas' out there, that some people are pushing. Need you subscribe to any or all of them, without checking them against known facts??..or do you give up rational thought, just to be in sync with the mob?
When you are in the 'creative' process, do you just reiterate that which has been said a bazzilion times, and then 'call' it 'creative'???....or can you reach into the unseen collective consciousness, and define something in a way that is grasped in a new way, that sheds 'new' light on a subject?
Are you content to be herded like cattle(or Robot's 'herd of turtles'), and say NOTHING, as to the direction that the herd is heading..including off a cliff???
Sometimes, just to hold up a thing of 'beauty' is statement in itself..being as 'ugly' seems to be the rule of the day!
Why would anyone be opposed to free thinking?...unless you don't think you can, or your addicted to being programmed??
Ask any ideologue. Most of them are not capable of an original thought...unless it's an excuse, for being called on their horse shit!

Just a thought........
By the way....the most powerful things on the planet, are 'thoughts'..and yet so overlooked!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Defective Thinkerator Syndrome (DTS)...
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 06 Aug 13 - 04:03 PM

Dave. Leave them to their own devices long enough and they may just develop a culture.
Why the hang up folks? Some people are open and candid. Some use wit and irony and some are neither American nor British. ..

As ever, I bow to the experience of Goofus when it comes to irrational thinking.


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Subject: RE: BS: Defective Thinkerator Syndrome (DTS)...
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 06 Aug 13 - 04:11 PM

Aww..just try thinking, at all...you might find it a new, likable experience!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Defective Thinkerator Syndrome (DTS)...
From: Bill D
Date: 06 Aug 13 - 07:09 PM

GfS...

"...In other words, 'Life'."

Hmmm? There's plenty to/of life without the positive things I listed.

"Why should anyone relegate their thinking, to someone else, who may have a hidden agenda, that does not serve the purpose of your own well being???"

I'm sorry, but I can't be sure what you are saying. Are you asserting that "the purpose of your own well being" is always the prime concern? And what, exactly, do you mean by 'relegate'?

=====================

Amos:

"Logic is inherently a bit arbitrary, or at least capable of being applied in arbitrary ways. It's fine within its own premises, but those premises may not uniformly cleave to the scope of realty itself. And when thinking parts ways with reality, why, anything is possible."

The scope of that is either not really true, or is trivially true. Logic is not really arbitrary...if it is 'applied in an arbitrary way'
it sorta ceases being...umm... logical. The word that seems to be arbitrary is 'reality', as we both approach that topic a bit differently. The only thought that your last sentence reminds me of is my oft stated: "From false premises, anything follows."

" Misassessment of importance between different data points..." is the very essence of arbitrary in many cases. In scientific measurement it IS a problem... in working out social or political ideas, it is what is at issue. Even identifying a data point can be a sticking point. (Mid-East troubles.. who hit who first...or deserved it.)

Thinkerators need to be able to at least state the point of view of others or arguing the details just becomes an exercise in dissembling and rationalization.


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Subject: RE: BS: Defective Thinkerator Syndrome (DTS)...
From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp
Date: 06 Aug 13 - 07:10 PM

I knew it was you, Bobertz, soon's I saw the thread title. "defective thinkerator"? Yup, gotta be Bobertz! Matter of fact, Bobertz, I could see that yer thinkerator had some pretty clear defects the first time I met you, but I didn't say nothin', cos I didn't want to be rude. Besides, I have met apes with defective thinkerators too. It's no reason to go judgin' someone, right?

- Chongo


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Subject: RE: BS: Defective Thinkerator Syndrome (DTS)...
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Aug 13 - 07:22 PM

That's BS, Chongz... I mean, you didn't mind taking a big steamy monkey dump in the corner of my office but...

...you didn't want to offend me???

Get real, Chongz...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Defective Thinkerator Syndrome (DTS)...
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Aug 13 - 08:59 PM

The basic point of involving yourself in an online discussion needs to be, not to try to convince other people who disagree with you (you are never going to do that) but to clarify what you yourself think, and find out more about what other people think. There is also the matter of getting relevant information, but the Mudcat isn't the best place for tht. Except of course above the line, where it is.


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Subject: RE: BS: Defective Thinkerator Syndrome (DTS)...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 12:09 AM

"The basic point of involving yourself in an online discussion needs to be, not to try to convince other people who disagree with you (you are never going to do that) but to clarify what you yourself think, and find out more about what other people think."

Exactly! Well said, McGrath.


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Subject: RE: BS: Defective Thinkerator Syndrome (DTS)...
From: Amos
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 12:10 AM

Bill:

Ah, lemme think. So you think there is only oneset of logic, which is universally binding??

Ahmmmmm. I'd like to stay up late pursuing that rather lengthy discussion.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Defective Thinkerator Syndrome (DTS)...
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 12:27 AM

Amos: "Ah, lemme think....."

SUCCESS!!!!

But Amos has a head start....

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Defective Thinkerator Syndrome (DTS)...
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 04:30 AM

So, having thought, studied and kept my filters clean, I believe I now have the measure of this thread. It's having another go at people who disagree with some of the posters. Basically, the age old tactic of discredit your opponents. If my thought process does not arrive at the same conclusion as others, my 'thinkerator' is defective. Yes? Well, sorry, but the only defective thinking around here is the belief that no-one would see though it.

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Defective Thinkerator Syndrome (DTS)...
From: Amos
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 04:46 AM

WEll, Dave, it's either (a)different facts (b)a matter of opinion or (c)a broken thinkerator.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Defective Thinkerator Syndrome (DTS)...
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 06:05 AM

Sorry, Amos. Because a conclusion is different it does not mean the thought process is broken. I will accept Different Thinkerator Syndrome but definitely not defective. If we accept that someone's brain is defective because they have an opposing viewpoint then where do we take it from there? Giving them no voice? Not letting them vote? Selective culling?

I believe the whole principle is a bag of shit and if that makes my 'thinkerator' defective in your eyes then so be it. I give thanks that you are not in a position of power.

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Defective Thinkerator Syndrome (DTS)...
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 06:55 AM

"Measure of this thread". Do threads have a measure? Someon starts a thread because they want ti say something, and it goes off on its own after that, quite. Possibly in a direction quite different from what the initial poster had in mind.


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Subject: RE: BS: Defective Thinkerator Syndrome (DTS)...
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 08:12 AM

Kevin, when someone starts a thread on the premise that other peoples brains are defective there is only one direction to go. Down. The motive may have been otherwise but it is fair to say that such a premise can be, and usually is, used to demean others.

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Defective Thinkerator Syndrome (DTS)...
From: Bobert
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 08:57 AM

This is funny...

Did it ever occur to ya'll that I started this thread just for a few smiles and giggles???

I mean, folks way to serious and in the words of a drunk John Riggins to former Supreme Court Justice Sandra Day O'Conner, "Ya' gotta lighten' up, baby"...

B;~)


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Subject: RE: BS: Defective Thinkerator Syndrome (DTS)...
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 09:16 AM

Naah - if we don't keep it solemn the roof might fall in.


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Subject: RE: BS: Defective Thinkerator Syndrome (DTS)...
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 09:48 AM

What really IS funny is the way that people are quick to tell us something was ironic or meant as joke when brought to task for ridiculous statements but never seem to notice when others are joking :-)

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Defective Thinkerator Syndrome (DTS)...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 09:56 AM

Meanwhile, Chongo pours another drink and ponders the latest unsolved case in the growing pile of papers on his desk. WHO killed Ollie Chambers? Where is his head? And can Mrs Chambers' toy poodle be trusted as a material witness?


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Subject: RE: BS: Defective Thinkerator Syndrome (DTS)...
From: Bobert
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 10:04 AM

Lighten up, Dave... You are trying to score points on a thread that isn't a sports event... Plenty of sports events out there for intense points scoring...

I mean, maybe you can learn something from the monkey... Pour another drink...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Defective Thinkerator Syndrome (DTS)...
From: GUEST,SJL
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 10:40 AM

Don, this might be a good time to bring up Socrates. You may recall we were discussing Socrates' take on democracy. You cited (second hand) accounts that showed Socrates' had a distain for democracy and other quotes attributed to him that showed he favored Plato's rule of philosopher kings. That might have been true at one time but how about near his time of death? That's trouble with recording what people say at any given time. As someone's thoughts and opinions and beliefs change, it can be misleading to quote them. But we can infer some things about Socrates if we use our heads.

Socrates was the grand master of critical thinking and therefore did not care for the sophists whose teaching relied upon convention. These were the teachers, who like Harvard professors, were employed by the aristocracy to give their children what was, in Socrates opinion, a mediocre education consisting of the ability to argue brilliantly whilst spewing rhetoric (like just about every politcian we know), one that was unworthy of a class of philosopher kings. So, doesn't it seem that this allegation of corrupting the youth of Athens stemmed from Socrates differences with the sophists regarding the educational goals and methods? The driving force behind Socrates' teaching methods, which was so distinctive that it is called the "Socratic Method" was ethics and involved relentless questioning of what we and others think we know.

Therefore, I believe Socrates was the "radical professor" and unhappily so because he must have realized by the end of his life that the society he had dreamed of, a republic ruled by a wise and ethical oligarchy of philosophers, was not happening. For one thing, while being the sort who was willing to teach anyone willing to learn from him without demanding money, he was effectively deprived of his pupils. His dream was shattered while democracy proved to be a civilized form of mob rule in his case. Did you ever consider how few laws we'd need if ethics were emphasized in education? The main flaw in science is that, since Descartes, it favors a paradigm in which ethics are irrelevant. This is something that Einstein stressed throughout his life.


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Subject: RE: BS: Defective Thinkerator Syndrome (DTS)...
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 10:45 AM

No points involved at all, Bobert. I find the whole premise pointless :-) I did notice your 'wink' smiley but there are a few people on here that seem to think you were serious. Just look up the thread.

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Defective Thinkerator Syndrome (DTS)...
From: Bobert
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 10:58 AM

Whatever, Dave...

There is no thread that can be started that some folks ain't gonna like...

That's the nature of this joint...

Had I really been serious I doubt I would have used the word "thinkerator", which BTW, is meant to be humorous...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Defective Thinkerator Syndrome (DTS)...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 11:43 AM

Very well, said, SJL. I had intended to discuss the same things with Don awhile back regarding Socrates. I don't think his death was in any way due to him "threatening democracy", but rather to him embarrassing the conventional minds of his time by showing them up to be, in short, a bunch of conformist dullards. He rocked their comfy little boat of conventional thinking, woke up their young people to consider new ideas, and they didn't like it, so they killed him, thereby murdering an innocent man, and a far better man than themselves.

A civilized form of mob rule may appear to be democracy or legal propriety...but it is actually a grand failure of both ethics and vision. It was a similarly "civilized" form of mob rule that condemned both Jesus (Yeshua) and Joan of Arc to death: all quite legal and proper by the rules of the day, yet utterly unjust in consequence.


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Subject: RE: BS: Defective Thinkerator Syndrome (DTS)...
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 11:53 AM

(Amos) "Ah, lemme think....."
Oh sure.. be my guest...

"So you think there is only oneset of logic, which is universally binding??"

'Set'? There are different types of 'reasoning' that are called logic, according to what is at issue. The very term can be, like 'folk' to music, applied to stuff that suits a specific agenda. "Informal logic" is not what I was referring to. (I hasten to say I am NOT an expert on the intricacies of the categories. I ordinarily limit my concern to the internal consistencies of language and 'formal' logic coupled with 'informal fallacies.)

"Ahmmmmm. I'd like to stay up late pursuing that rather lengthy discussion."

Might be possible.... first four hours devoted to agreeing on definitions?

""Give me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe." - Abraham Lincoln


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Subject: RE: BS: Defective Thinkerator Syndrome (DTS)...
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 01:05 PM

Whatever indeed, Bobert.

Funnily enough I agree about the irrational thinking. We can best help the situation by forcible removal of the frontal lobe of everyone who likes American folk music. We just need a jolly brain removerator and all these problems would be solved.

Are we having fun yet?

:D tG


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Subject: RE: BS: Defective Thinkerator Syndrome (DTS)...
From: Bobert
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 01:50 PM

I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy...

B;~)


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Subject: RE: BS: Defective Thinkerator Syndrome (DTS)...
From: GUEST,SJL
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 01:51 PM

Thanks Little Hawk. Now apply the above thoughts to a discussion on another thread where I have been conversing with Steve Shaw on the merits of "Evolution vs. Intelligent Design." Steve maintains that it would be damaging, even dangerous, to teach anything but the "right" information. He doesn't trust students to come to the "right" conclusions if they are exposed to a competing theory. This is something that you will always find in state sponsored education because the state's objective is always thought control. We all know what happens to teachers who teach competing or "controversial" theories or points of view. In this way, public schools reject critical thinking in favor of spoon feeding students "correct" information which they must subsequently regurgitate, barely chewed, to prove that they "know" it. If you get a teacher like Socrates, you're likely to get he or she as a professor in college where there is more academic freedom.


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Subject: RE: BS: Defective Thinkerator Syndrome (DTS)...
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 02:15 PM

I don't believe that Steve is against informing students of competing theories. As I understand it he is against teaching creationism as if it is either the truth or as valid as evolution. If it is put across along the lines of 'people used to think the earth was flat and that god made it. But now there is scientific evidence to the contrary' I am sure there would be no issue. It is when teachers try to force a child into believing that the earth is flat and god made it that is tantamount to child abuse.

But I am sure he can speak for himself and probably will :-)

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Defective Thinkerator Syndrome (DTS)...
From: Amos
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 03:31 PM

You could toss creationsim, voodoo, jujuuu, and Blavatsky into the curriculum with no harm to the student IF you took the trouble first to instill clear concepts and the ability to recognize:
1. Facts
2. Opinions
3. Factual sequence and consequence
4. Hypotheses
5. Speculation
6. Contradictions, explicit and implicit
7. Data
8. Distortions of data including falsity, exaggeration, omission of context, distortion of sequence, and distortion of relative importance.
9. Relative importance of data compared to other data.

Maybe a few other things. But a student armed with these skills and understandings could chew through all the superstition in the world without being fazed.


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Defective Thinkerator Syndrome (DTS)...
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 03:44 PM

That's not education, Dave, it's drill. "This is what you will think. Platoon 'shun!"

There's rather a lot of it about.


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Subject: RE: BS: Defective Thinkerator Syndrome (DTS)...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 03:59 PM

Yes, SJL. I am familiar with Steve's general approach. I have come to the conclusion that there's not much use talking to him about it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Defective Thinkerator Syndrome (DTS)...
From: Bobert
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 04:07 PM

Giving a student choices when they have not been taught to think critically is insane...

Think about it this way... What if a person had never seen either a gun or a transistor radio and knew nothing about what either did for a living... Now these same people were asked to pick which one they would choose to put in the crib with their baby...

Hmmmmmm???

The Scopes Trail was a long time ago, BTW... I thought that argument had been litigated back then??? No???

(Well, it was, Boberdz... That was before Tin Foil Nation gained a toe hold on public policy...)

You mean, like the Taliban???

(Well, yeah... You could say that...)

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Defective Thinkerator Syndrome (DTS)...
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 05:40 PM

I'm sure someone will correct me (and quickly too!) if I'm mistaken,
but I think I remember that Scopes was convicted as charged.

We (really "I") like to think of the result as a victory for
scientific-based thinking because Scopes's attorney pretty much
destroyed the main prosecuting lawyer/witness, making him look extremely foolish and effectively ending his possibilities of achieving the presidency he and his admirers thought he had in
his pocket.

Am I all wet? If so, tell me so.

Dave Oesterreich


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Subject: RE: BS: Defective Thinkerator Syndrome (DTS)...
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 06:52 PM

Correct, Dave,,, Scopes was 'convicted'.. he was fined $100...William Jennings Bryan was disgraced


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Subject: RE: BS: Defective Thinkerator Syndrome (DTS)...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 06:54 PM

"The Scopes Trial, formally known as The State of Tennessee v. John Thomas Scopes and commonly referred to as the Scopes Monkey Trial, was a famous American legal case in 1925 in which a high school teacher, John Scopes, was accused of violating Tennessee's Butler Act, which made it unlawful to teach human evolution in any state-funded school.[1] The trial was deliberately staged in order to attract publicity to the small town of Dayton, Tennessee, where it was held. Scopes was unsure whether he had ever actually taught evolution, but he purposely incriminated himself so that the case could have a defendant.

Scopes was found guilty and fined $100, but the verdict was overturned on a technicality. The trial served its purpose of drawing intense national publicity, as national reporters flocked to Dayton to cover the big-name lawyers who had agreed to represent each side. William Jennings Bryan, three-time presidential candidate for the Democrats, argued for the prosecution, while Clarence Darrow, the famed defense attorney, spoke for Scopes. The trial publicized the Fundamentalist–Modernist Controversy which set modernists, who said evolution was consistent with religion, against fundamentalists who said the word of God as revealed in the Bible took priority over all human knowledge. The case was thus seen as both a theological contest and a trial on whether modern science regarding the creation-evolution controversy should be taught in schools."


The article makes clear an interesting aspect of the trial...that it was not a court battle between an atheistic/scientific viewpoint and a religious viewpoint. Rather, it was a court battle between a modernist religious AND scientific viewpoint versus a more traditional fundamentalist/literal interpretation of scripture viewpoint.

People don't think of it that way nowadays. They think of it as science versus religion, which it was not. It was a liberal/modern religious viewpoint versus an old-fashioned fundamentalist viewpoint.

I would gather that Scopes was found guilty because the small town jury which gave the verdict was made up of people of a mostly fundamentalist viewpoint...which would have been fairly typical of rural and small town Tennessee people at the time...maybe still is. Had the trial occurred in a larger urban environment in, say, Massachussets or New York, the jury would probably have decided the other way.

It served to showcase 2 viewpoints: literal fundamentalism and modern liberal Christianity. The former takes all scripture literally. The latter definitely does not. The former can't reconcile with science. The latter takes for granted that science is in accord with rational spirituality.

But it pleases modern audiences more to see a primitive battle between science and religion than to be aware of much subtler issues.


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Subject: RE: BS: Defective Thinkerator Syndrome (DTS)...
From: GUEST,SJL
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 07:03 PM

Intelligent Design is not Creationism. Here is a link to a good article explaining what it is:

http://www.discovery.org/a/3059


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Subject: RE: BS: Defective Thinkerator Syndrome (DTS)...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 07:16 PM

Agreed. The theory of Intelligent Design is not Creationism, and it is not an anti-scientific viewpoint at all. People who don't get that should read the linked article carefully and give the matter some serious thought.


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Subject: RE: BS: Defective Thinkerator Syndrome (DTS)...
From: Don Firth
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 07:55 PM

Sorry, but Intelligent Design IS simply another version of Creationism. As I said in another post, it is Creationism in a lab coat.

I read the article thoroughly, and I had read similar articles (arguments) put forward by the Discovery Institute, the sponsor, and I believe producer, of the Nova-like television program, "Privileged Planet." I have been familiar with the Discovery Institute for some years.

BASIC! It posits that things would not be the way they are were it not for an intelligent designer! And, of course, it carefully avoids mentioning God, lest the cat come leaping out of the bag!

Anyone who knows anything about chemistry knows that various elements will form bonds with any other elements that they are compatible with. Given millions of years for things to happen, someplace along the line, a number of chemical combinations will form (that millions of years later, will be identified as "biochemistry") at which point, Life is off and running.

From then on, evolution is in play, and I'm not going to take the time and effort to try to explain how it works because there are plenty of good books on the subject. Educate yourself.

The Creation Myth is a metaphor. And Intelligent Design is just a more elaborate form of the same metaphor.

Don Firth

P. S. And NO, I am not an atheist. If anything, I am an agnostic. I do, on the other hand, attend church fairly regularly. But it is NOT a fundamentalist church, and I have many good discussions along this line with the pastor.

And SHE says that the Creation Myth is a metaphor.

She also said, "The Bible is not 'The Boy Scout Manual.' It is a book of questions, not answers!"


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Subject: RE: BS: Defective Thinkerator Syndrome (DTS)...
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 07:55 PM

But the theory of Intelligent Design is used BY creationists as one brick in their wall.


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Subject: RE: BS: Defective Thinkerator Syndrome (DTS)...
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 08:19 PM

The theory of Intelligent Design is not Creationism, and it is not an anti-scientific viewpoint at all.

Absolute Bullshit. Or should I say Hawkshit?


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Subject: RE: BS: Defective Thinkerator Syndrome (DTS)...
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 09:25 PM

You have to admire the cheek of the use, in that link SJL gave, of a quote by Richard Dawkins that in context clearly would have been read a implying that he was flirting with intelligent design According to Darwinian biologists such as Oxford's Richard Dawkins, livings systems "give the appearance of having been designed for a purpose."

But it seems valid to draw a distinction between a Creationism that is founded on treating the Bible, interpreted literally as decisive evidence, and "intelligent design" presenting complexities and apparent anomalies thrown up by science as grounds for belief in God as the "intelligent designer", or in an older term used by Masons and other theists, the"Supreme Architect".

This distinction is reflected in the fact that a different approach is required of those contesting advocates of Creationism and "Intelligent Design".


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Subject: RE: BS: Defective Thinkerator Syndrome (DTS)...
From: GUEST,SJL
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 09:50 PM

Exactly. I think this theory makes you wonder more than anything else. It doesn't work in terms of proving the existence or identity of a designer because then, who or what created (designed) the designer? True to science, it only leads to more unanswered questions.

I think it is more of a problem for us to imagine we have all the answers or that we are always going to get them by using a given methodology. In fact, the need to fill in all the blanks seems a detriment to both science and religion. It leaves us less open to discovery.

Religion and Science might be compatible. Is it important that they are? Not to me because to me religion has always been mystical and doesn't rely on science at all. What I have always disliked about science is its tendency to denigrate our humanity by attempting to reduce us to mere biology, always a material explanation for everything.

Intelligent Design at least seems to suggest that our consciousness, our intelligence, our feelings, our ability to contemplate, create and design might actually mean something. Not just some accident of nature.

Here's another interesting theory:

http://www.hydrogen2oxygen.net/en/implicate-and-explicate-order-according-to-dav


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Subject: RE: BS: Defective Thinkerator Syndrome (DTS)...
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 10:39 PM

SJL's link includes this near the end..

"DNA functions like a software program. We know from experience that software comes from programmers. We know generally that information-whether inscribed in hieroglyphics, written in a book or encoded in a radio signal-always arises from an intelligent source. So the discovery of information in the DNA molecule, provides strong grounds for inferring that intelligence played a role in the origin of DNA, even if we weren't there to observe the system coming into existence.

This is some combination of these informal fallacies. (and maybe several others implied). It gets you nodding "ok...sure" about certain seeming facts, then asks you to make a jump to 'obvious' conclusions.


Fallacy of Weak Analogy

Complex Question Fallacy

Cum Hoc Fallacy

Sweeping Generalisation Fallacy

Subjectivist Fallacy


It is NOT obvious that conceptually similar structural similarities demand similar causal assumptions.


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Subject: RE: BS: Defective Thinkerator Syndrome (DTS)...
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 02:33 AM

Being as understanding ALL of 'science' OR the 'spiritual' have some much that is still unknown, or detected by our senses, it's amusing to see all the 'experts', making such definitive statements, as to their absolute!
Personally, from what I've been made aware of, science and the spiritual are compatible..depending on the fulness, and inclusiveness, one wishes to consider.
For instance, the word 'LOVE' is translated primarily as 'love' in the scriptures, in modern English..BUT, there are three different words in the original texts..but all translated as 'love', eros, agape, philia. 'Agape'(love), is an unconditional love, that also contains within it, all the properties of physics both seen and unseen, whereas philia, is a 'mental love', usually between humans, as a 'brotherly love,, as in 'Philadelphia'..and 'eros' is usually a sensual love, between a man and a woman.
Now, with that in mind, how many 'absolutes' does science define?...Not all, because 'science' in itself, is not complete.
I think when it's all done, and all that is discovered that is yet to be discovered, 'science' will only serve to define, in terms, what really exists in power.

....an easy concept, UNLESS................................................ you are suffering from 'Defective Thinkerator Syndrome (DTS)...'

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Defective Thinkerator Syndrome (DTS)...
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 02:59 AM

That's not education, Dave, it's drill.

It is indeed, Kevin, and that is what we are trying to avoid. On another thread I mentioned to drill we used to go through at a Catholic promary school in the late 50's - Catechism repeated parrot fasion. Fortunately it is a thing of the past but it appears some are trying to re-instate a different form of it :-(

Giving a student choices when they have not been taught to think critically is insane...

So we need to teach a 2 year old how to think before we say 'Would you like Ice Cream or Cake?' :-)

Finaly, funny how some are still pursuing the defective thinkerator even though even the opening poster has said it was a joke. Like I said, when you introduce concepts like that someone will believe it really exists and use it to demean others.

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Defective Thinkerator Syndrome (DTS)...
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 03:33 AM

Dave the Gnome: "Finaly, funny how some are still pursuing the defective thinkerator even though even the opening poster has said it was a joke."

Maybe, and maybe not...maybe he came up with it while sitting on the 'Porcelain Buddha-lator' passing some deep thoughts!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Defective Thinkerator Syndrome (DTS)...
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 04:22 AM

GfS Maybe, and maybe not...

Bobert: Had I really been serious I doubt I would have used the word "thinkerator", which BTW, is meant to be humorous...

So, the lad himself says it was a joke. But, as also I said, it is strange how often these trolling threads are quickly changed to 'just having a laugh' when called out :-)

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Defective Thinkerator Syndrome (DTS)...
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 05:57 AM

Whoops - Just noticed my lack of italics - Imagine them on the second line from 'Had' to 'humorous...' which is quoting Bobert.

D.


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Subject: RE: BS: Defective Thinkerator Syndrome (DTS)...
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 07:20 AM

What I was immediately thinking when I mentioned 'drill' was your sentence .
If it is put across along the lines of 'people used to think the earth was flat and that god made it. But now there is scientific evidence to the contrary' I am sure there would be no issue.

Still having a bit of trouble with the italics, Dave, I see. Putting in quotes you want to disagree with without using italics or quotation marks gets a bit confusing...


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Subject: RE: BS: Defective Thinkerator Syndrome (DTS)...
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 08:32 AM

I am equally confused by

Putting in quotes you want to disagree with without using italics or quotation marks gets a bit confusing...

but rather than discuss that I can just say that I am happy if teachers say 'people used to think the earth was flat and that god made it. But now there is scientific evidence to the contrary'

I would not see that in the same league as

Who made you?

God made me.

Why did God make you?

God made me to know him, love him and serve him


etc.

The latter really is a drill while the former is information which the student can use in whichever way they chose.

Any clearer?

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Defective Thinkerator Syndrome (DTS)...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 09:51 AM

"God made me to know him, love him and serve him"

You hear that from some people....but it seems to propose a separate God. That is, there's God...."over there"...wanting to be known, loved, and served by this person, that person, etc...

But God is supposed to be infinite.

And what is infinite is not just "over there", it's everywhere.

And it doesn't need to be loved or appreciated by anyone because it is already complete, therefore it needs nothing.

What if we are God (but not all of God) just like a drop of water is a part of the ocean, but isn't all of the ocean? And what if a drop of water thought it had to worship the ocean? And feared that the ocean would judge it and find it wanting? But didn't realize that it IS the ocean? In microcosm. Just as each one of us is life itself...individualized...the entirety of life being what some people refer to as "God"?

I am not suggesting final answers here. I am suggesting that people ask themselves a few more questions, rather than leaping to customary assumptions and figuring they are now safe on home base.


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Subject: RE: BS: Defective Thinkerator Syndrome (DTS)...
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 10:11 AM

Is asking a 'few more questions' a safe home base, LH? What if I have already asked myself those questions, and many more, and still come to a conclussion that all religions I am aware of preach a load of nonsense? Are you not assuming that the people have not reached your conclussions have just not asked enough questions? What makes you so sure that you are right and the 'customary assumptions' are wrong?

I find it rather insulting that you believe that I and many others on here have not figured it out for ourselves but have been, somehow, indoctrinated. Is it so difficult to understand that I have studied, weighed the evidence and pondered extensively yet still comne to the conclusion that all the religions I am aware of preach nothing but noonsense?

It is far easier to believe it is a 'broken thinkerator' than someone else may just be right, isn't it :-)

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Defective Thinkerator Syndrome (DTS)...
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 10:16 AM

still come to a conclussion that all religions I am aware of preach a load of nonsense?

No problem Dave; for the most part Hawk preaches a load of nonsense, too.


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Subject: RE: BS: Defective Thinkerator Syndrome (DTS)...
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 10:21 AM

Greg F: "No problem Dave; for the most part Hawk preaches a load of nonsense, too."

Look up, Greg....
'One man's ceiling, is another man's floor'.


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Subject: RE: BS: Defective Thinkerator Syndrome (DTS)...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 10:45 AM

Dave, I am suggesting nothing about what YOU might believe or not believe. I am asking some questions about life, because asking those questions interests me. If you have already asked those same questions...great! As long as anyone is willing to ask questions, they are still open to learning new things.

As McGrath recently posted on another thread:

The basic point of involving yourself in an online discussion needs to be, not to try to convince other people who disagree with you (you are never going to do that) but to clarify what you yourself think, and find out more about what other people think.

That ought to be engraved in gold and put at the top of this forum! Because that is IT. If more of the people who came here would just follow that kind of approach to dialogue instead of being paranoid and trying to verbally destroy the other people they talk to here, it would be a far more agreeable place.

I don't come here to fight with people or to convert them to anything, I come here to express myself in words, to talk about things that interest me...or that amuse me, sometimes...and to clarify my own thoughts by expressing them, and to hear other people's thoughts, thus getting to know them better, which helps me understand the rest of humanity better.

And that's it. Period.


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Subject: RE: BS: Defective Thinkerator Syndrome (DTS)...
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 11:57 AM

I think y'all have to quit believing people all the time. You don't have to disbelieve everything, but you don't have to accept whatever people say, either.

Me, I think the Creationism vs Evolution debate has two hidden motives.

1. To make fundamentalist religious tenets seem like a matter of logical, scientific debate, when they are not. The 'debate' is merely a giant PR move, and it's most importance is in school-board elections.

2. It's a matter of control. A fundamentalist minister, almost always a man, wants to control the minds and the loyalty of his flock. "What do you believe," he asks, "A bunch of fossils or me, wonderful ME?"


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Subject: RE: BS: Defective Thinkerator Syndrome (DTS)...
From: GUEST,Musket musing
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 12:15 PM

There can't be a creationism v evolution debate. They have nothing to debate.

The former is proposition, the latter is evaluation of evidence. The latter can make the former irrelevant but until and unless the former is backed by evidence,which hitherto it hasn't been, there is no grounds for discussion.

The only discussion would be that the evidence for evolution discredits creationism and too many people would lose their power and influence over others if gullible people had their delusions shattered.


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Subject: RE: BS: Defective Thinkerator Syndrome (DTS)...
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 12:28 PM

LH, you say - I don't come here to fight with people

The post before you say - I am suggesting that people ask themselves a few more questions, rather than leaping to customary assumptions and figuring they are now safe on home base.

Do you not see the contradiction in that? You suggest that people are leaping to conclusions without having first asked questions. The implication is quite clear yet you don't want to fight. Isn't that known as hit and run?

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Defective Thinkerator Syndrome (DTS)...
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 01:10 PM

Hmmmm.........hit and run....... kinda like bicyclists colliding with pedestriams on the sidewlk/footpath/pavement, I suppose.......


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Subject: RE: BS: Defective Thinkerator Syndrome (DTS)...
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 01:44 PM

There can't be a creationism v evolution debate. They have nothing to debate.

The former is proposition, the latter is evaluation of evidence. The latter can make the former irrelevant but until and unless the former is backed by evidence,which hitherto it hasn't been, there is no grounds for discussion.


That's where the distinction between "creationism" and "intelligent design" is relevant. The latter does involve "evaluation of evidence", which means that countering it involves seeking to provide more convincing evaluation of the same evidence. That implies that there are, in principle, grounds for discussion.


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Subject: RE: BS: Defective Thinkerator Syndrome (DTS)...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 03:48 PM

Dave, I'm suggesting that everyone, myself included, should keep asking questions and be careful not to just unquestioningly accept conformity of any sort, whether it be religious conformity OR secular conformity...if they wish to keep learning about life and to keep growing in their understanding.

There is no rational reason for anyone to object to such a suggestion, but one thing I've found is this: if people are absolutely determined to take offense over an opinion or an assertion of some sort...then there is no way one can avoid offending them when discussing the subject...although one may have no intention of offending them. And if they are deeply afraid of change (as is the case with both religious extremists and anti-religious extremists), then they will be offended by any suggestion that they question their usual set of assumptions.

They don't need to be offended. There's no real reason for them to be offended. But they still get offended anyway, because they want to get offended, and there's nothing that can be done about it except to avoid talking to them in the first place about the subject they are so sensitive about....which if I were in 3-D life here is exactly what I would do. I would avoid talking to them about the stuff they are determined to take offense over. Here I don't have that choice, because I don't necessarily know who is going to open the thread and read what I have written here, and I have no way of avoiding various people who are hellbent on taking offense over opinions and ideas that weren't intended to offend anyone in the first place.

I'm merely discussing something I'm interested in. That's what people do. There is nothing here to be fighting over.


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Subject: RE: BS: Defective Thinkerator Syndrome (DTS)...
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 04:35 PM

I suspect that a fair number of people have a mindset in which, if you don't get angry with people you disagree with, that means that you are being insincere, and can't really mean what you say. Or that is how other people are going to see it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Defective Thinkerator Syndrome (DTS)...
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Aug 13 - 03:11 AM

Fairy Nuff, LH. I am certainly willing to give you the benefit of the doubt but you also need to bear in mind that just as you are discussing things you are interested in, other people not 'fighting', they are just doing the same. And if you suggest that they need to ask more questions the implication is that they have not asked enough. Maybe they have not, but maybe they have. You have no idea how many questions people have already asked because, as you say, you have no idea who will read your comment. May I suggest that discussions would go a lot easier if people thought their comments through more thoroughly? Or, by doing so am I guilty of the same offense? :-)

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Defective Thinkerator Syndrome (DTS)...
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 10 Aug 13 - 12:06 AM

Greg F: "Hmmmm.........hit and run....... kinda like bicyclists colliding with pedestriams on the sidewlk/footpath/pavement, I suppose......."

Hmmmm.........hit and run???....Sounds like a pothead, toking while sitting on the porcelain Buddha with diarrhea!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Defective Thinkerator Syndrome (DTS)...
From: GUEST,SJL
Date: 10 Aug 13 - 01:16 AM

Dave, don't call Bobert a troll. Them's fighting words. Not really, but Bobert is my bro. A very, very sincere person. Not a troll at all.


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Subject: RE: BS: Defective Thinkerator Syndrome (DTS)...
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Aug 13 - 05:16 AM

Greg - Are you a cyclist?

:D tG


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Subject: RE: BS: Defective Thinkerator Syndrome (DTS)...
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 10 Aug 13 - 11:25 AM

Naw... Robot is not a troll...he just is a guy with convictions..who hasn't thought them through all the way.........OR...he has.....
Defective Thinkerator Syndrome (DTS)...

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Defective Thinkerator Syndrome (DTS)...
From: GUEST,SJL
Date: 10 Aug 13 - 02:49 PM

DTS...hmmm. Don't be surprised if it shows up in the DSM manual someday. Not to mention there will be new toxic drugs to treat it with.


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Subject: RE: BS: Defective Thinkerator Syndrome (DTS)...
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 10 Aug 13 - 03:16 PM

"Convictions are the more dangerous enemy of truth than lies." Friedrich Nietzsche

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Defective Thinkerator Syndrome (DTS)...
From: GUEST,SJL
Date: 10 Aug 13 - 05:25 PM

Good one GfS, now I got one for you. Einstein:

"Quantum mechanics is very worthy of regard. But an inner voice tells me that this is not yet the right track. The theory yields much, but it hardly brings us closer to the Old One's secrets. I, in any case, am convinced that He does not play dice."


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Subject: RE: BS: Defective Thinkerator Syndrome (DTS)...
From: Bobert
Date: 10 Aug 13 - 10:08 PM

Sorry, I have not been around to defend my honor or whatever needed defending but been gone on business the last 3 days...

For those who have stood up for me a big 'ol Wes Ginny holler thanks...

For those have taken the opportunity to throw cow chips???


















Bite me...

B;~)


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Subject: RE: BS: Defective Thinkerator Syndrome (DTS)...
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 11 Aug 13 - 02:54 AM

Thanks, SJL..that's a good one, too.
Another Einstein quote, along the same lines: "Only a fool say there is no God"

Regards,

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Defective Thinkerator Syndrome (DTS)...
From: Don Firth
Date: 11 Aug 13 - 02:50 PM

Another Einstein quote:

"The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it."

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Defective Thinkerator Syndrome (DTS)...
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 12 Aug 13 - 12:17 AM

"Misinformation are only very temporary in accomplishing anything of lasting value, either to the individual or society."--Me

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Defective Thinkerator Syndrome (DTS)...
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 12 Aug 13 - 12:18 AM

"Misinformation is only very temporary in accomplishing anything of lasting value, either to the individual or society."--Me

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Defective Thinkerator Syndrome (DTS)...
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Aug 13 - 11:18 AM

"Ambiguously referential sentences with vague linguistic parameters intrinsically limit coherent rejoinders" --Me


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Subject: RE: BS: Defective Thinkerator Syndrome (DTS)...
From: Bobert
Date: 12 Aug 13 - 12:56 PM

"You can pick your nose and pick your friends but you can't pick your friend's noses" -- Me

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Defective Thinkerator Syndrome (DTS)...
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 12 Aug 13 - 01:55 PM

Well that was a snotty remark!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Defective Thinkerator Syndrome (DTS)...
From: Don Firth
Date: 12 Aug 13 - 04:44 PM

Anybody need a Kleenex?

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Defective Thinkerator Syndrome (DTS)...
From: Amos
Date: 12 Aug 13 - 10:08 PM

Dave:

Different facts, or a matter of opinion. I did not say that a different conclusion means a broken thinking process. Two rational people armed with the same facts may still have different conclusions because they weight things differently because they have, for example, different purposes over the long-term.

However there IS also such a thing as illogical thinking. Jumping to conclusions, for example.


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Defective Thinkerator Syndrome (DTS)...
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Aug 13 - 03:39 AM

Yes, Amos, there is such a thing as illogical thinking. It is illogical to sing and dance when there is so much to put right in the world. Love is illogical and irrational. Blind belief in a higher power is illogical. However, millions of people all over the world participate in these things all the time. It does not make them 'broken' and, by implication, not as good as others. The whole premise of this thread, although Bobert has hedged his bets by saying it was just a joke, is to intimate that those who cannot think correctly are worse than those who can. May be logical but it is still wrong.

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Defective Thinkerator Syndrome (DTS)...
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Aug 13 - 08:30 AM

The intimation is more properly that those who cannot think are worse than those who can.

And that's the truth.


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Subject: RE: BS: Defective Thinkerator Syndrome (DTS)...
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Aug 13 - 08:32 AM

A very disrespectful 100.

Bollocks.

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Defective Thinkerator Syndrome (DTS)...
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Aug 13 - 08:36 AM

So, Greg

The intimation is more properly that those who cannot think are worse than those who can.

And that's the truth.


Are you saying that you believe you are better than many other people? That is the way I am reading your comment so apologies if I am wrong. But if that is what you are saying, tell us why you feel so superior to so many people and what you define as correct thinking please.

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Defective Thinkerator Syndrome (DTS)...
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Aug 13 - 08:56 AM

No, I didn't say it was "just a joke"... Starting threads that illicit posts that might make people smile isn't the same as "just a joke"...

And the original intent has been achieved...

I mean, there have been many such postings...

As for illogical thinking??? Yeah, love and issues related to faith can be seen as illogical... I don't see them that way...

What Amos said is what I am talking about... If people use mythology as the basis of their opinions I consider that illogical... Such was the case in the Zimmerman trial... I challenged one such person to explain why anything that was on Martin's phone would justify his being murdered by a stranger who not only had no knowledge of what was on Martin's phone but didn't even know Martin...

The poster created a scenario that had no basis in reality and then used that mythology to defend the murder...

That, in my opinion, is what one get's when suffering from DTS...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Defective Thinkerator Syndrome (DTS)...
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Aug 13 - 10:00 AM

"Never express yourself more clearly than you think."   - N. Bohr

"A great many people think they are thinking when they are really rearranging their prejudices." - William James

"A person who won't think has no advantage over one who can't think." Paul Lutus


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Subject: RE: BS: Defective Thinkerator Syndrome (DTS)...
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Aug 13 - 10:11 AM

Are you saying that you believe you are better than many other people?

Bugger off, Dave & take your nonsense with you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Defective Thinkerator Syndrome (DTS)...
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Aug 13 - 10:23 AM

Simple question, Greg. Why so defensive? Besides, I thought you would have said 'on your bike'...

:D tG


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Subject: RE: BS: Defective Thinkerator Syndrome (DTS)...
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Aug 13 - 10:30 AM

I think, therefor I am, Bill???

B;~)


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Subject: RE: BS: Defective Thinkerator Syndrome (DTS)...
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Aug 13 - 11:39 AM

"I think I think... therefore I think I am...I think"


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Subject: RE: BS: Defective Thinkerator Syndrome (DTS)...
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 14 Aug 13 - 01:57 AM

Robot: "I think, therefor I am, Bill???"

Perfect example of 'DTS'!

GfS


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