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Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed

Richard Bridge 18 Jul 13 - 03:57 AM
Richard Bridge 18 Jul 13 - 03:58 AM
GUEST,Fred McCormick 18 Jul 13 - 05:07 AM
GUEST,Don Wise 18 Jul 13 - 10:15 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 18 Jul 13 - 10:19 AM
GUEST,Fred McCormick 18 Jul 13 - 01:03 PM
GUEST,Musket evolving slowly 18 Jul 13 - 02:44 PM
McGrath of Harlow 18 Jul 13 - 05:25 PM
Richard Bridge 18 Jul 13 - 06:38 PM
Keith A of Hertford 18 Jul 13 - 07:10 PM
GUEST,Musket being patriotic 19 Jul 13 - 02:23 AM
Stu 19 Jul 13 - 04:43 AM
Keith A of Hertford 19 Jul 13 - 05:28 AM
Keith A of Hertford 19 Jul 13 - 06:02 AM
Richard Bridge 19 Jul 13 - 06:11 AM
Keith A of Hertford 19 Jul 13 - 06:18 AM
Stu 19 Jul 13 - 07:21 AM
Keith A of Hertford 19 Jul 13 - 07:44 AM
GUEST,HughM 19 Jul 13 - 07:59 AM
Stu 19 Jul 13 - 10:26 AM
theleveller 19 Jul 13 - 12:05 PM
Keith A of Hertford 19 Jul 13 - 12:08 PM
Keith A of Hertford 19 Jul 13 - 12:13 PM
theleveller 19 Jul 13 - 02:27 PM
Bonzo3legs 19 Jul 13 - 02:44 PM
Keith A of Hertford 19 Jul 13 - 03:31 PM
Bonzo3legs 20 Jul 13 - 03:07 AM
MGM·Lion 20 Jul 13 - 03:27 AM
GUEST,Ian Mather 20 Jul 13 - 03:42 AM
akenaton 20 Jul 13 - 03:45 AM
GUEST 20 Jul 13 - 04:40 AM
GUEST,Musket getting bored now 20 Jul 13 - 04:51 AM
akenaton 20 Jul 13 - 05:47 AM
GUEST,Eliza 20 Jul 13 - 05:59 AM
akenaton 20 Jul 13 - 06:14 AM
GUEST,Eliza 20 Jul 13 - 06:20 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 20 Jul 13 - 06:21 AM
akenaton 20 Jul 13 - 07:57 AM
GUEST,Musket being patriotic 20 Jul 13 - 08:13 AM
akenaton 20 Jul 13 - 08:30 AM
akenaton 20 Jul 13 - 08:41 AM
GUEST,Musket trying to be civil 20 Jul 13 - 11:14 AM
GUEST,Eliza 20 Jul 13 - 02:30 PM
Bonzo3legs 20 Jul 13 - 05:41 PM
GUEST,musket again 20 Jul 13 - 06:31 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 20 Jul 13 - 06:41 PM
akenaton 20 Jul 13 - 08:01 PM
GUEST,Musket getting his tuppence worth 21 Jul 13 - 03:37 AM
GUEST,Bill Kennedy 21 Jul 13 - 05:08 AM
akenaton 21 Jul 13 - 05:40 AM
akenaton 21 Jul 13 - 07:00 AM
Mr Happy 21 Jul 13 - 08:49 AM
MGM·Lion 21 Jul 13 - 10:49 AM
Bonzo3legs 21 Jul 13 - 04:35 PM
MGM·Lion 21 Jul 13 - 05:25 PM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Jul 13 - 12:20 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 22 Jul 13 - 01:59 PM
Bonzo3legs 22 Jul 13 - 02:02 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 22 Jul 13 - 02:09 PM
akenaton 22 Jul 13 - 02:34 PM
akenaton 22 Jul 13 - 02:43 PM
GUEST,Musket curious 22 Jul 13 - 03:15 PM
MGM·Lion 22 Jul 13 - 03:47 PM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Jul 13 - 05:20 PM
GUEST,Musket sans Ian 23 Jul 13 - 02:56 AM
akenaton 23 Jul 13 - 03:13 AM
Richard Bridge 23 Jul 13 - 03:56 AM
akenaton 23 Jul 13 - 04:35 AM
GUEST,Musket curious 23 Jul 13 - 07:20 AM
Keith A of Hertford 23 Jul 13 - 07:43 AM
akenaton 23 Jul 13 - 07:44 AM
Keith A of Hertford 23 Jul 13 - 07:49 AM
Stu 23 Jul 13 - 08:55 AM
GUEST,Musket giggling 23 Jul 13 - 11:22 AM
MGM·Lion 23 Jul 13 - 11:44 AM
MGM·Lion 23 Jul 13 - 11:47 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 23 Jul 13 - 01:19 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 23 Jul 13 - 01:30 PM
akenaton 23 Jul 13 - 01:43 PM
akenaton 23 Jul 13 - 01:49 PM
Keith A of Hertford 23 Jul 13 - 02:50 PM
Keith A of Hertford 23 Jul 13 - 02:52 PM
GUEST,Musket being patriotic 24 Jul 13 - 03:02 AM
Richard Bridge 24 Jul 13 - 03:56 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 24 Jul 13 - 04:20 AM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Jul 13 - 04:33 AM
Stu 24 Jul 13 - 04:50 AM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Jul 13 - 04:52 AM
akenaton 24 Jul 13 - 11:17 AM
GUEST,Musket shaking his head 24 Jul 13 - 01:11 PM
Bonzo3legs 24 Jul 13 - 02:07 PM
Stu 24 Jul 13 - 02:26 PM
GUEST,Musket making a point 24 Jul 13 - 03:04 PM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Jul 13 - 06:15 PM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Jul 13 - 05:47 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Jul 13 - 05:54 AM
Musket 25 Jul 13 - 06:20 AM
akenaton 25 Jul 13 - 09:41 AM
akenaton 25 Jul 13 - 09:41 AM
GUEST,Musket again 25 Jul 13 - 09:44 AM
akenaton 25 Jul 13 - 09:47 AM
GUEST,Musket pissing himself 25 Jul 13 - 09:52 AM
Green Man 25 Jul 13 - 10:34 AM
Musket 25 Jul 13 - 10:57 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 25 Jul 13 - 11:16 AM
Stu 25 Jul 13 - 11:24 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Jul 13 - 12:13 PM
GUEST,Musket getting bored now 25 Jul 13 - 03:20 PM
Jim Carroll 25 Jul 13 - 04:31 PM
akenaton 25 Jul 13 - 04:50 PM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Jul 13 - 05:10 PM
Jim Carroll 26 Jul 13 - 02:47 AM
GUEST,Musket between courses 26 Jul 13 - 03:14 AM
GUEST,Eliza 26 Jul 13 - 04:00 AM
Jim Carroll 26 Jul 13 - 04:05 AM
akenaton 26 Jul 13 - 04:27 AM
akenaton 26 Jul 13 - 04:29 AM
Keith A of Hertford 26 Jul 13 - 04:53 AM
Jim Carroll 26 Jul 13 - 05:05 AM
Musket 26 Jul 13 - 05:09 AM
Jim Carroll 26 Jul 13 - 05:16 AM
akenaton 26 Jul 13 - 05:25 AM
Keith A of Hertford 26 Jul 13 - 05:26 AM
Keith A of Hertford 26 Jul 13 - 05:34 AM
Jim Carroll 26 Jul 13 - 06:15 AM
Keith A of Hertford 26 Jul 13 - 08:22 AM
Musket 26 Jul 13 - 08:37 AM
Jim Carroll 26 Jul 13 - 09:11 AM
GUEST,Allan Conn 26 Jul 13 - 10:46 AM
Keith A of Hertford 26 Jul 13 - 11:22 AM
Keith A of Hertford 26 Jul 13 - 11:26 AM
Keith A of Hertford 26 Jul 13 - 12:08 PM
Jim Carroll 26 Jul 13 - 12:18 PM
MGM·Lion 26 Jul 13 - 01:49 PM
GUEST,Musket being patriotic 26 Jul 13 - 02:16 PM
MGM·Lion 26 Jul 13 - 02:37 PM
Keith A of Hertford 26 Jul 13 - 02:49 PM
Jim Carroll 26 Jul 13 - 03:30 PM
Keith A of Hertford 26 Jul 13 - 04:34 PM
Jim Carroll 27 Jul 13 - 03:09 AM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Jul 13 - 04:18 AM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Jul 13 - 04:23 AM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Jul 13 - 06:50 AM
Musket 27 Jul 13 - 07:41 AM
Bonzo3legs 27 Jul 13 - 09:47 AM
GUEST,Fred McCormick 27 Jul 13 - 10:52 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 27 Jul 13 - 11:46 AM
Jim Carroll 27 Jul 13 - 11:47 AM
akenaton 27 Jul 13 - 11:55 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 27 Jul 13 - 11:59 AM
Jim Carroll 27 Jul 13 - 12:47 PM
Jim Carroll 27 Jul 13 - 12:57 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 27 Jul 13 - 01:09 PM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Jul 13 - 03:55 PM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Jul 13 - 03:59 PM
Jim Carroll 28 Jul 13 - 03:34 AM
Keith A of Hertford 28 Jul 13 - 04:27 AM
GUEST,Musket trying to do technology 28 Jul 13 - 05:23 AM
Keith A of Hertford 28 Jul 13 - 07:39 AM
Musket 29 Jul 13 - 04:38 AM
Richard Bridge 29 Jul 13 - 04:58 AM
GUEST,Allan Conn 29 Jul 13 - 05:51 AM
GUEST,Fred McCormick 29 Jul 13 - 06:27 AM
Keith A of Hertford 29 Jul 13 - 06:51 AM
Musket 29 Jul 13 - 09:01 AM
Richard Bridge 29 Jul 13 - 10:29 AM
Keith A of Hertford 29 Jul 13 - 12:30 PM
Keith A of Hertford 29 Jul 13 - 12:43 PM
GUEST,Fucking iPad! 29 Jul 13 - 03:19 PM
Allan Conn 29 Jul 13 - 05:20 PM
GUEST,Musket confused 29 Jul 13 - 05:28 PM
Richard Bridge 30 Jul 13 - 11:28 AM
Keith A of Hertford 30 Jul 13 - 12:04 PM
GUEST,cujimmy 01 Aug 13 - 07:35 AM
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Subject: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 18 Jul 13 - 03:57 AM

George Osborne's own Office for Budget Responsibility reports today that current policies to restrict immigration will leave our ageing population completely screwed, with an increase in national debt from 75% of GDP to 99% by 2036. More net inward migration is needed as the report notes that immigrants are more likely to be net revenue contributors. Love to say "I told you so"

http://cdn.budgetresponsibility.independent.gov.uk/2013-FSR_OBR_web.pdf


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 18 Jul 13 - 03:58 AM

Oh shit that should have been BS - would a mudelf please fix?

------------------Done. Mudelf-------------------


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 18 Jul 13 - 05:07 AM

I totally agree. The vast majority of immigrants come here to work, not to rake in the benefits, and they are a major asset to this country; culturally as well as economically.


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: GUEST,Don Wise
Date: 18 Jul 13 - 10:15 AM

I would suspect that the UK experience is similar to the German one - recent immigrants generally tend to be well educated for the most part. It's only now that the unskilled are starting to arrive, and they certainly have a will to work which is unfortunately exploited by unscrupulous people.


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 18 Jul 13 - 10:19 AM

What a surprise!

Exactly what I've been saying for twenty years past.

I'm (somewhat unusually) with Richard on this one.

LOVE to say I told 'em so.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 18 Jul 13 - 01:03 PM

This isn't an attempt to defend immigration on pragmatic grounds; IE., we'll let them in as long as Britain is a nett beneficiary. I would far rather argue the case on humanistic grounds and say that they are people just like us, except that they are often escaping the most unbelievable poverty, and deserve every chance they get.

However, two pieces of information worth bearing in mind:-

1. Many recent/forthcoming immigrants come from Eastern Europe. The pattern of immigration there is for people to migrate for a limited period, say four or five years, work like buggery to earn as much money as they can, and then go home.

2. Many recent/forthcoming immigrants are well educated young professionals who are moving here to start careers. I don't think anyone has established an immigration pattern for these people yet, but they are the type of people who would be a good solid asset to any nation.


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 18 Jul 13 - 02:44 PM

Ok. Damn and double damn. This love affair with Bridge. ... it will end in tears I know.

In the meantime.

The NHS goes from not enough to training too many clinicians. But to secure a safe effective service, the visa issues in getting doctors is excruciating. Those from countries with a similar standard to us in training, Indian sub continent, USA etc we have issues getting them in under immigration criteria yet those from Eastern Europe where professional regulators have problems with levels of training, wr have to accept their qualifications.

Perhaps the right wing newspapers who are bleating today at the state of health care should make a link to their usual bleating about immigration.

We need specialists in many areas, we can, believe it or not afford them but Home Office stand in the way.

Foreign doctors and nurses in this country pay shed loads of tax and support local economies. Interesting. ....


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Jul 13 - 05:25 PM

There is supposed to be a legal requirement that everyone gets at least a minimum rate per hour. This needs to be properly enforced, with all the loopholes blocked, and draconian penalties on any employer who fails to ensure all their employees get that minimum.


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 18 Jul 13 - 06:38 PM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draco_(lawgiver)


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Jul 13 - 07:10 PM

Where will people live?


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: GUEST,Musket being patriotic
Date: 19 Jul 13 - 02:23 AM

I heard you may have a spare bedroom Keith?


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: Stu
Date: 19 Jul 13 - 04:43 AM

The whole immigration issue was manufactured by the right-wing as part of their desire to manipulate using fear as the motivator. Similar to the way welfare and it's recipients have been wildly misrepresented, and now they've moved on the NHS, which the tories especially hate.

They've just sold off our blood supply, in which we are (er, were) self-sufficient to an American private equity firm founded by Mitt Romney (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/is-there-no-limit-to-what-this-government-will-privatise-uks-blood-supply-sold-to-/). This is NOT a specialist firm.

If this lot stay in much longer, we will, as the great sage once said, be well and truly fucked.


"Where will people live?"

In your house. Boo!


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Jul 13 - 05:28 AM

So you are saying, "housing crisis, what housing crisis?"
I am already letting a room in my house, but that has made no noticeable difference.

We do already have a massive shortfall in housing, and we have to produce enough new jobs, houses, roads, power stations, schools, hospitals, fire and police stations, water supplies, waste facilities etc to meet the needs of a new Liverpool every year, just to stand still at the current rate of population growth.
We are not even coming close.


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Jul 13 - 06:02 AM

"Osbourne wrong"
Why single him out?
Every party has committed itself to reducing immigration, because it has been too high they say.
That includes Labour. Milliband stated that the last government had been wrong about it.


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 19 Jul 13 - 06:11 AM

See?


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Jul 13 - 06:18 AM

See what Richard?
Did I get anything wrong?
Sorry, please put me straight.


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: Stu
Date: 19 Jul 13 - 07:21 AM

"We do already have a massive shortfall in housing"

We do, but net immigration doesn't increase the pressure on housing by any large amount. I'd love to see hard, peer-reviewed evidence that it does.

In the meantime, we have no significant state-owned social housing stock as we did before Thatcher sold it off and we became a nation of unregulated landlords. This is a problem created by short-termist politicians, not immigration., who have allowed thousands of unregulated landlords to fuck over the people and the state. However as these people are the natural constituency of the tory party, they let them carry on their parasitic business.

It amuses me greatly to see so many people believe the tories when they go for the low-hanging fruit to scare the witless, unquestioning gorps that believe their propaganda. Immigration, disabled people, benefit claimants, Muslims and christ knows who else are used as scapegoats by these nasty sods. They're even trying to resurrect the cold war to justify the white elephant that is trident.


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Jul 13 - 07:44 AM


We do, but net immigration doesn't increase the pressure on housing by any large amount. I'd love to see hard, peer-reviewed evidence that it does.

I'd love to know how adding more people could fail to increase the pressure on housing!

Thatcher sold the council houses, but she did not pull them down.
They still exist but there is a massive shortfall in the number of houses compared to the number of people.


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: GUEST,HughM
Date: 19 Jul 13 - 07:59 AM

Britain is far fom self-sufficient in both energy and agriculture. Young people are struggling to get on the property ladder. The National Health service is overstretched. Our roads are congested. The country is a trillion pounds in debt. The more the population increases, the more we have to import as a proportion of what we consume. To pay for this we have to export more and more goods per head of population. This does not appear to be happening, at least not sufficiently to bring the national debt under control. It seems to me we need more immigration like a hole in the head.


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: Stu
Date: 19 Jul 13 - 10:26 AM

"I'd love to know how adding more people could fail to increase the pressure on housing!

That ain't evidence. Fail.


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: theleveller
Date: 19 Jul 13 - 12:05 PM

"Young people are struggling to get on the property ladder. The National Health service is overstretched."

Interestingly, when I needed a plumber and electrician to work on my house renovations, they were both Polish. My GP and my eye consultant are also immigrants. Personally, I'm grateful they are all here.


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Jul 13 - 12:08 PM

Evidence.
People need houses to live in.
There are already not enough houses for the all the people to live in.
Add even more people, AND THE CRISIS AND MISERY CAN ONLY GET WORSE.
Please point out the flaw in that logic.


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Jul 13 - 12:13 PM

leveller, are you comfortable about depriving countries like Poland of their doctors, trained at the expense of those much poorer countries, so that we can get health care on the cheap.
I find that despicable.
I think we have a moral obligation to train our own.


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: theleveller
Date: 19 Jul 13 - 02:27 PM

You're talking bollocks, as usual. How do you know where they were trained? I'm not depriving anyone of anything. People have the right to make their own decisions about where they wish to live and work. Obviously you think its OK to deny people that choice - unless, of course, they happen to be born in the UK. There's a name for that sort of attutude.


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 19 Jul 13 - 02:44 PM

Hello leveller, long time no argue! However, I agree with you entirely!


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Jul 13 - 03:31 PM

It is not me talking bollocks leveller.
It is you getting your treatment by depriving the poor abroad.
It is not just me who finds that "morally indefensible."
BBC 2005

"Doctors' leaders have strongly criticised the continuing reliance on medical staff from developing countries to fill NHS vacancies.
British Medical Association chairman James Johnson said taking much-needed staff is morally indefensible.

The BMA says African nations in particular are being damaged.

Last year two thirds of newly-registered doctors, and more than 40% of nurses, came from abroad.

About 12,500 doctors currently registered to work in Britain are from African nations that face serious staff shortages themselves, said the BBC's Mike Thompson.

And, over the last six years, nearly 16,000 African nurses have registered to work in the UK.


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 20 Jul 13 - 03:07 AM

At Consultant level, at least 4 my wife and I have been referred to came from abroad, and excellent they were too.


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 20 Jul 13 - 03:27 AM

This is an enquiring post, not an opinionated one: but as I understand the last post ~~

Bonzo agrees with leveller et al: he thinks we "need" [thread title] immigration in order that he and his wife can enjoy the "excellent" services of "at least 4" consultants who "came from abroad".

Have I got that right?

Where 'abroad'? Do the people wherever it is not ever require the excellent services these consultants might have provided? Have they so many consultants of their own that they can spare us these? Have we no consultants of our own who could have furnished equally excellent service? If so, where are they practising? If not, why not?

As I say ~~ just enquiries. I am a little exercised as to these situations & assertions.

~M~


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: GUEST,Ian Mather
Date: 20 Jul 13 - 03:42 AM

Note not Musket.

Just on the doctor training issue.   The Royal Colleges predict and then the deaneries apply to be able to fund. The upshot is that predictions can fall wrong and are based on 10 year old assessments. 10 years ago, everybody was convinced that by now there would be better integrated care, more support in the community and proactive primary care. Hence not training as many for an A&E consultant role. We all know that for various reasons, many of which are political, that isn't the case so we have vacancies that are difficult to fill.

That is an example using today's crisis of the week. Emergency care.

What is also in the BMA report is their complaint about overseas trainees not joining BMA (it is the doctors trade union) As well as taking doctors trained in other countries, which does have a moral dilemma, we also provide training for those who come under visa, are trained and go back to their country. It is good business for the universities and we get service from them whilst junior doctors.

Something I am not quite so informed about is education overall. To get into medical school requires the highest grades of the highest achievers. Our universities in general bemoan having to run foundation courses to get 18 year old to a level of education so they can start properly. Medical schools cannot do this. Are our schools developing children sufficiently?

Something else The BMA point out is that with consultants being well remunerated, and so many of them immigrants, the tax take and contributing aspects of immigrants is far higher than newspapers would have you believe.


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Jul 13 - 03:45 AM

Once again, facts and common sense (by Keith), versus, ideology byeveryone else!

The point made by Keith regarding the drain on poorer countries health capabilities, falls on deaf ears.....so much for "liberal" egalitarianism.
Is it a case of we're all right Jack?.....or is it less expensive to bring medical staff from overseas than train our own?

Never forget the immortal admission by the Blair (Labour?)govt.
"WE must have increased immigration to make ourselves more competitive in the global economy!"......Its all about money.

Mass immigration is all about driving down living standards....I know it, you know it.....why do you try to excuse it.

Of course, due to the "financial disaster" living standards are going to plummet in any case, so, would we not be better to take the opportunity to rebuild oor society, rather than attempt to prop up the facade by using cheap labour and professionals traned at the expense of people much poorer than ourselves.

Too liberal for the "liberals"?


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Jul 13 - 04:40 AM

Immigration. Knock it off. Give us your tired and your poor. Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free ..,

God Bless America. This is our country. We take everyone.

Immigration act. Do you expect us to side with you? We are ALL immigrants. There were people here before you came. Wise up.


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: GUEST,Musket getting bored now
Date: 20 Jul 13 - 04:51 AM

Ok. Once more.

There is a moral issue in attracting overseas professionals where poorer countries than ours have invested in their training. What the flying fuck that has to do with liberalism is beyond me.

There is a proud tradition in the medical schools of providing training for those who then return to practice in their own country. The visas are tight and this happens, regardless of what you read. You can't go underground and retain your GMC number. We are paid for training them and our hospitals get good junior doctors work out of them. In England, over 20% of junior doctors in hospitals will practice abroad.   We in return need specific speciality doctors that have not come through the system yet, hence attracting overseas candidates.

The worst dilemma out of interest is the Cuba South Africa Europe triangle.   Cuba have an excellent medical school. They can ill afford to run it but they do. Due to treaties it is easy for a Cuban doctor to work in South Africa for more money and a better life. There are vacancies because many South African doctors come to The UK and Germany. ...

The Indian subcontinent has about parity. People crossing between The UK and back is little different in percentages to those crossing between hospital trusts in a region of The UK.

Regarding rebuilding The UK. We need to be competitive in the world market to be able to afford to. Circular argument. ..


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Jul 13 - 05:47 AM

"Regarding rebuilding The UK. We need to be competitive in the world market to be able to afford to. Circular argument. .."

Worthy of the infamous Tony B Liar himself.

Competition will not get us out of this one!
Unless of course the populace can be persuaded to live in corrugated iron shacks, sell their children into industrial slavery and accept payment in their rice bowls!

Wecome to the reality of global Capitalism.


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 20 Jul 13 - 05:59 AM

In spite of the unemployment problem and the recession, many employers just can't get UK-born workers to work for them. I'm thinking particularly of the industrial-scale agricultural areas such as Norfolk and Lincolnshire. The folk who ARE prepared to turn up reliably, work in freezing cold or boiling hot conditions in boring and tiring work for a minimum wage are the immigrants from, for example, Eastern Europe. The huge greenhouses growing tomatoes or lettuces are full of them, poor souls. In the open fields you see gangs of them chopping sugar beet or sorting spuds. The farmers are glad of them, and British lads wouldn't want such work. The cockle-pickers in say Morecombe Bay and other estuaries are often immigrants. As for the NHS, we've had excellent dentists at our practice from Bulgaria, India and South Africa. One wonders why British people trained as dentists don't fill the jobs. Maybe they've shoved off to the USA for better pay and conditions?


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Jul 13 - 06:14 AM

I suppose what you are saying Eliza, is, get the fat lazy bastards out of their designer trainers, track suits and expensive disability scooters and herd them out onto the cotton fields of Kent or the mudflats of Morcambe.....I have a lot of sympathy with that, but not without completely changing our social and economic system, which protects the rich "drones" who have cost the country much more than our fag smoking, beer swilling, media stupified brethern.


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 20 Jul 13 - 06:20 AM

I made no judgement one way or the other akenaton, about the British who don't want that type of work. I merely stated the case. I did say, 'poor souls' as I have every sympathy with workers of any origin suffering in adverse conditions. But the immigrants who do so are contributing heroically to our economy. If they were all booted out, where would we be?


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 20 Jul 13 - 06:21 AM

""and draconian penalties on any employer who fails to ensure all their employees get that minimum.""

Well MGoH, that would certainly tend to ease the housing situation, since Draco advocated the death penalty for almost every offence.

It would also have a beneficial effect on traffic congestion, if universally applied to illegal parking and motoring offences.

Maybe this Draco bloke had something.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Jul 13 - 07:57 AM

I dont think anyone is suggesting that all immigrants be "booted out" Eliza, but the conditions of entry, access to benefits and sheer numbers of entrants needs careful scrutiny.

Just yesterday, I spoke to a young Scots lad who was labouring in a local builders merchants yard....he told me he had been through uni and had reasonable qualifications, but there were no jobs available.

He appeared to hold no malice for the system which had allowed this state of afairs to come about...in fact he said he was really enjoying the manual work and the camaraderie. He said he was lucky to get a job at all as most of the "low skilled" jobs had been taken by the local East European contingent. He said it had become like a "closed shop" for manual labour, whole families and associates working for the larger industries like fish processing.

I know the guys who runs the builders merchants which is long established and they try to employ as many local young people as possible.


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: GUEST,Musket being patriotic
Date: 20 Jul 13 - 08:13 AM

So we must base our policies on the experience of one bloke in Scotland. Oh and a racist policy of one builders merchants based on bollocks in The Scotsman about other industries.

I wonder if my wife will be classed as a foreign trained doctor if Salmond gets his vote?


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Jul 13 - 08:30 AM

I didn't say anything to you Ian, simply having a civilised discussion about a complicated issue with Eliza, tho' before long i'm sure everything will be simplified into "equality" and "inequality"....with further discussion prohibited.

"Orwellianism rules"


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Jul 13 - 08:41 AM

By the way, do you really think it is racist to try to provide employment to the sons and daughters of local families who cannot find employment?
These men grew up with the fathers and mothers of the young local unemployed. Given employment they will provide the next generation of our community, unlike the immigrants who regularly return home after a few years.


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: GUEST,Musket trying to be civil
Date: 20 Jul 13 - 11:14 AM

Equality of opportunity. It's in the last SNP manifesto to uphold commitment to equal chance to obtain a job based on merit.

When I was in business, my shareholders quite rightly required that we obtained the best person for the job. Those who can perform best help keep the other employees in a job and keep shareholders happy at the same time. The best person for the job could include local knowledge, credibility with customers and better communication skills, but get the job on merit, not on who the daddy is on the birth certificate. Funny that Etonian ministers are frowned upon for the same reason....

Oh, you weren't talking to Eliza, you were posting on a thread and your comments are open to scrutiny by all, as ever.


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 20 Jul 13 - 02:30 PM

I think gradually, in the far future, The World will be seen as one country. Ebb and flow of populations with different skills and ambitions will occur as needs arise. Many of the countries from which immigrants arrive have actually many good resources in minerals, oil, agriculture and technology, but the endemic corruption allows the few rich to grab all the benefits and deny the poor any kind of decent life. If all this could be sorted out, almost every nation would have something to develop and trade. Looking at UK at the moment, the population is ageing, and we do need young incomers. The birth rate for example has risen (according to statistics) due to the immigrant families not waiting until their thirties to have children. I feel this is a good thing.


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 20 Jul 13 - 05:41 PM

"he thinks we "need" [thread title] immigration in order that he and his wife can enjoy the "excellent" services of "at least 4" consultants who "came from abroad".

They just happen to be part of the consultancy team at our local BMI hospital. As far as I know they come from Egypt, India, Southern Rhodesia and possibly Saudi Arabia. But populations are moving, never more so than in the present, so I don't see the problem.


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: GUEST,musket again
Date: 20 Jul 13 - 06:31 PM

Under The Health and Social Care Act 2008 and before then The Care Standards Act 2000, the private hospitals under practicing privileges have preferred to use consultantswwith NHS contracts working in their spare time. Having NHS contracts, they don't need to appraise or provide training etc

Very rare to have a consultant in private practice who isn't an NHS consultant for at least 10 sessions per week. Mind you, most private hospitals need to rely on NHS work to survive.

We all want good health care yet many politicians and media fail to see how the international aspects in many ways help solve most of the problems.

Mind you. .. when we were in New Zealand a while ago, we started looking in estate agents windows. . They are crying out for my responsible adult's specialty. Professional workforce planning is truly international these days. My parents never worked far from where they were born. I have lived abroad and my brother hasn't worked in The UK since the late 70s.

Times change and immigration is and always has been a factor.


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 20 Jul 13 - 06:41 PM

The United Nations should finally respect land rights, make all economic/CAPITALIST immigration illegal, and help genuine asylum seekers to their NEAREST safe nation.


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Jul 13 - 08:01 PM

"Equality of opportunity"....thats a fucking laugh!

How many ex comprehensive schoolboys/girls are in the govt?
How many Old Etonians in the cabinet?

"Equality" is a myth.


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: GUEST,Musket getting his tuppence worth
Date: 21 Jul 13 - 03:37 AM

Yeah. Equality has its drawbacks. Equality in education means you are capable of using a keyboard.

Why so bitter? Why find a target (any political viewpoint you could generalise as liberal) and blame it for society's ills?

Or are you just blaming yourself for not using the opportunity to get a better suck on The UK nipple?

Immigration? Fucking liberals. Gay equality? Fucking liberals. Akenaton's predicament? Fucking liberals.


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy
Date: 21 Jul 13 - 05:08 AM

I don't think there is any factual evidence to back this up. I can only speak about my own town, Eastern Europeans have found it is more profitable to claim incapacity benefits and D.L.A. Many bring aged relations over so they can claim attendance allowance for them and have a better standard of housing provided by the taxpayer. The local maternity unit of our hospital witnesses the breeding for benefits programme by Eastern Europeans on a daily basis.

Crime in our area has increased dramatically, ATM thefts, sexual crimes, robbery and stabbings. Eastern Europeans have brought much to Britain, all of it we could do without might I add.


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: akenaton
Date: 21 Jul 13 - 05:40 AM

I, Ian, have been very fortunate.
I have a very happy and fulfilling place in our community, brought up with socially conservative values and from a loving family home.
Politically, I am still very much a socialist, but have come to realise that political and social issue are better separate. Since the advent of "liberalism" in the sixties societal structure has weakened, and only our economic prosperity prevented a social disaster years ago.

The prosperity has gone for good and the social anomalies are going to have to be tackled.
Time for a change.


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: akenaton
Date: 21 Jul 13 - 07:00 AM

"I think gradually, in the far future, The World will be seen as one country"

Well Eliza, I hope you are wrong.....I can think of nothing worse.

But I'm afraid you may be right, a world controlled completely by a committee of the powerful nations, transporting labour and resources wherever they are required.....human beings with even less purpose than they have today, deprived of even their identity or national cultures......Orwellian hell on earth.


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: Mr Happy
Date: 21 Jul 13 - 08:49 AM

GUEST,Bill Kennedy,

Your assertions above would be more credible if a source were given


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 21 Jul 13 - 10:49 AM

Bonzo: I can't quite see what point you are making in your reply to me. You list the countries your surgical 'team' came from'; but I can't see you have in the least demonstrated any "need" [the word in your previous post that I was querying] for them to have come from there. If we "need" them to look after you and your wife, then I ask again, why is not such "need" being met from our own resources? I am frankly more impressed by the arguments about immigrants being willing to undertake menial jobs which our own youth seem to regard as "beneath them", than by your plea of "need" of incomers to keep you & you wife healthy; which, if it is the case, seems to me to demand better medical training from our own medical schools, and better inducements for their graduates to stay here to provide care for such as the Bonzo family, rather than a somewhat pathetic "need" to have to import such.

~M~


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 21 Jul 13 - 04:35 PM

MtheGM - The consultants are simply available and we are referred to them - although knowing the ropes, we see the consultant first and advise our GP afterwards so that he can update our records, and retrospectively do the appropriate referral.


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 21 Jul 13 - 05:25 PM

yesyesyes ~~ But in what way do they 'need' to come from Saudi or Egypt more than from South Shields or Solihull or Saffron Walden. I have frankly not the remotest idea as to what relevance you imagine the experience you relate has to the word "needed" specified in the thread title.

~M~


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Jul 13 - 12:20 PM

All political parties were committed to the need to reduce immigration.
Since this report, no single party has expressed any need to reconsider their position.
Apart from on Mudcat, the report in the OP has disappeared without trace.
Perhaps it was not as significant as the OP supposed.


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 22 Jul 13 - 01:59 PM

""Once again, facts and common sense (by Keith), versus, ideology byeveryone else!

The point made by Keith regarding the drain on poorer countries health capabilities, falls on deaf ears.....so much for "liberal" egalitarianism.
Is it a case of we're all right Jack?.....or is it less expensive to bring medical staff from overseas than train our own?
""

There is NO press gang trawling through those countries, knocking doctors and nurses on the head, and dragging them aboard a boat for Blighty.

They come for one reason, they want to! And we let them come for one reason, we need them!

There just aren't enough home grown doctors to go round, and there are NO press gangs forcing people into a career which, they have been told time and again, will involve years of working soul destroying shifts for peanuts, and more years before enough consultants retire for them to progress.

Also, it comes as somewhat of a surprise hearing that Keith and you care one jot for the problems of other countries, unless of course it affords a point scoring opportunity.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 22 Jul 13 - 02:02 PM

MtheGM is really getting his knickers in a twist, and is clearly a racist - end of.


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 22 Jul 13 - 02:09 PM

""Looking at UK at the moment, the population is ageing, and we do need young incomers.""

Oh I'm sure Ake has an alternative for that which excludes foreigners Eliza, Probably along the lines of euthanasia for the over seventies.

Except for him, of course.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: akenaton
Date: 22 Jul 13 - 02:34 PM

It's the way he tells 'em!   :0)


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: akenaton
Date: 22 Jul 13 - 02:43 PM

Your problem Don, is that although Keith and I have different political views, we are able to see through all the Party political smoke and mirror on important social and economic issues.

You and your kind dislike that intensely......all must swear allegiance to the gods of equality and "liberalism"


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: GUEST,Musket curious
Date: 22 Jul 13 - 03:15 PM

Me? I could explain you and Keith by a different description.

So glad you can see through politicians. We rational well adjusted people have such problems. We fall for their bullshit every time.

Zzzzz


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 22 Jul 13 - 03:47 PM

Oh dear. Woe is me. Alas&Alack ------ I am crushed ~~ do you hear! CRUSHED!!!! ~ devastated!!! annihilated!!!! by the astonishing intellectual cogency of Bonzo's irrefutable response...


Teeheeheeheeheeheeheeeheeeeeeeeeeheeeeeeeeeee

☺〠☺~M~☺〠☺


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Jul 13 - 05:20 PM

Nothing new Don.

From: Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 27 Sep 09 - 09:11 AM

"One solid figure is that 27 per cent of health professionals in the UK were born abroad, suggesting that the NHS at least benefits from immigration"
And you think that is a good thing Emma?
The majority of these come from countries much poorer than us.
Countries with much higher levels of disease and infant mortality, and much lower life expectancy.
Can it be right for a rich country like ours to entice away their desperately needed doctors, nurses and technicians just to spare ourselves the cost of training, and paying competitive salaries.
That is a throwback to a racist, colonialist, exploitative past.
It shames us.


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: GUEST,Musket sans Ian
Date: 23 Jul 13 - 02:56 AM

I did just out of interest explain the statistics above. There is a degree of us tapping into other countries and some of that could fit into Keith' s concerns.

However, many of the junior doctors on our wards and in our clinics shall practice in their country of origin and should any wish to stay, the visa rules they are here under apply.   With medical students, the universities and deaneries do well out of overseas students.

The problem is planning as ever. You plan the places for 18 year olds on the basis of what we need when they turn 35 or so. Just limiting places to domestic students doesn't work. The object of the exercise is decent clinicians and the skill mix is fairly international.

You may find more fault in grant funded students that we pay for taking off to Australia and The USA once they are on the specialist register.   The numbers of doctors trained in medical schools in poor countries and settling here is a factor but a small one and is balanced by UK trained doctors returning home.

The professional need to help people coupled with the relatively better personal lifestyle makes their home attractive.

Out of interest, the recent tightening up of Article 14 (putting overseas trained doctors on the specialist register) and insisting on communication skills as well as UK practicesiis a reaction to EU standardisation. Politicians with good intent made European qualifications EU wide. Sadly the level of training required to be a consultant in say Romania is woefully short of the mark whilst the India Subcontinent medical schools mirror ours.

That is an issue and was brought into sharp relief when a German doctor not conversant with diamorphine killed a patient on almost his first day as a locum GP. Rules for UK practice have been tightened despite what some newspapers would have you believe.


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Jul 13 - 03:13 AM

Keith's valid point is only one facet of the problem.....unregulated immigration from within the EU is the long term problem for our economy.


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 23 Jul 13 - 03:56 AM

The report, ake, says otherwise. It says that without immigration the UK economy will be worse off.


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Jul 13 - 04:35 AM

If you notice Richard, I said in the LONG term.....If we do not train our own young people, any economic gains will go the same way as most of the North Sea Oil revenues.

There is also(whisper it), the social dimension, the associated crime statistics, the incendiary effect of multiculturalism in the present worsening financial crisis....etc etc.


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: GUEST,Musket curious
Date: 23 Jul 13 - 07:20 AM

The incendiary effects of multiculturalism? ?

About time you lot had your referendum and pissed off then.

We'll be up to buy shortbread biscuits and staff the nuclear submarine base we are apparently keeping in Scotland regardless of the vote. ..

What am I saying? Turkeys don't vote for Xmas and Scotland only has as many odious bigots pro rata as anywhere else.

Methinks you are referring to anybody different to you again?

That's just about the whole of the population

Thank fuck.


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jul 13 - 07:43 AM

There is a housing crisis, and new build is outstripped by current population growth that adds a new Liverpool or Manchester every year.

May I ask again, if you increase immigration, where will they all live?

Should the police stop clearing the insanitary sheds illegally housing many in London and South East already?


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Jul 13 - 07:44 AM

Thought you had nodded-off again Ian?
Better watch out, the gaps between the periods of lucidity are definitely getting shorter! :0)


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jul 13 - 07:49 AM

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/beds-in-sheds-crackdown-on-rogue-landlords-8685130.html


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: Stu
Date: 23 Jul 13 - 08:55 AM

"the incendiary effect of multiculturalism in the present worsening financial crisis....etc etc."

You mean like the fact our Olympians and sportsmen are living proof of the positive nature of multiculturalism? I look forward to you telling that to Jessica Ennis or Mo Farah.

Multiculturalism is a vital part of the diversity of our music, visual arts, literary arts, national cuisine, our character as a nation (or one of the myriad characters of our nation) and christ knows what else.

Multiculturalism isn't incendiary, it's those whom are incapable of embracing diversity and accepting an inevitable change who stoke the fires of intolerance and hatred.

On doing my family history I discovered a line of huguenots dating back to the early 1600's who escaped vicious persecution in a number of places in France, including relatives from Brittany, Normandy and Languedoc, some of whom who went via Berlin and Mannheim and ended up in the East End and Canterbury, all coming to London eventually. These people were then the subject to the same sort of vilification that is being shown on this thread and wider society to modern immigrants, as they too were accused of taking jobs, houses and whatever else the locals could pin on them. All bollocks of course, as the huguenots contributed greatly to the local and national economy, being skilled craftspeople and artisans (although mine were not rich, living in the slums of Shoreditch where they were textile workers). I'm happy to stand shoulder-to-shoulder with my ancestors on this subject, and leave the haters to vent their spleen.

Like my ancestors, the immigrants we welcome into our gloriously diverse society add to the vitality of our nation and contribute with their hard work and labours. Long may they come, and sod the naysayers and little brits/scots/englanders who don't have the wit to see beyond their own bigotry. In the long run, their anachronistic prejudices always fade and die, slowly suffocating on their own bile.


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: GUEST,Musket giggling
Date: 23 Jul 13 - 11:22 AM

We increase by the size of Liverpool or Manchester each year?

It's the word "or" that makes me laugh most. The two cities are very different in size.

The idea that we net increase by either each year is pure nationalistic propaganda. Anything else from EDL literature you wish to repeat?

We have an ageing population and less people feel it necessary to have children, mainly through lower prosperity. Without immigration, we wither and die, as a nation. The stereotypical illegal immigrant getting benefits isn't typical either. Most who come here get jobs, pay taxes and contribute to society whilst most who begrudge them tend to be a drain on society.

When we hold a party next month for our friends, it shall as ever have three BBQs. One for general meat, one halal and one vegetarian. Why? Because of the 70 or so invited, just under half don't fit the "white Anglo Saxon" profile. Many parties and events we go to tend to be similar these days.

Time marches on and the melting pot gets richer in flavour. I leave you with the words (ish) of Spike Milligan, an Irish Cockney born in India... Whilst playing a piano in C maj, he asked the audience if it sounded nice? He agreed but said that if you change to a key that has you playing the black notes as well, it becomes richer, more melodic....

Not a bad analogy.


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Jul 13 - 11:44 AM

Wikipedia ---

Liverpool /ˈlɪvərpuːl/ is a city and metropolitan borough of Merseyside, England, United Kingdom along the eastern side of the Mersey Estuary. It was founded as a borough in 1207 and was granted city status in 1880. It is the eighth most populous British city, in 2011 the population was 466,400

Manchester i/ˈmæntʃɛstər/ is a city and metropolitan borough in Greater Manchester, England, with an estimated population of 512,000.

Not that much difference in size, surely, Ian? Can't see what's to giggle at...

~M~


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Jul 13 - 11:47 AM

...& that fool Milligan's analogy stinks. Nice & poetic, but makes no actual analogical sense whatever. Fancy you letting yourself be taken in by that pseud & his fatuities. Now that really is worth a giggle!


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 23 Jul 13 - 01:19 PM

""If you notice Richard, I said in the LONG term.....If we do not train our own young people, any economic gains will go the same way as most of the North Sea Oil revenues.""

Is it your contention that our own young people, of the required educational standard, are being deliberately prevented from entering training, or are you saying that those who are NOT interested should be forced to enter training?

There is no evidence for the former, and the latter would seem to be counterproductive in the long, medium, or short term.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 23 Jul 13 - 01:30 PM

""Multiculturalism isn't incendiary, it's those whom are incapable of embracing diversity and accepting an inevitable change who stoke the fires of intolerance and hatred.""

It's a great pity that there is no far away place where those people could go and live together.

Like the Pilgrim Fathers, who went to the New World, not to escape religious bigotry, but to establish it.

In such a place all xenophobes and racists could spend their time trying to convince each other that it is possible to establish a one race state, irrespective of the fact that they come from every nation on Earth.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Jul 13 - 01:43 PM

The Scots integrate fully with UK society, some other sectors do not.
The word "multiculturalism" is newspeak for this situation, it covers various sectors which are living totally seperately but nominally together.....The word itself is a lie.

In our nearest small town we have an Eastern European community who make no attempt to integrate into UK society, they and their dependents are here to make as much money as they can in the shortest possible time, then head for home....the only integration they seem to make is into the local crime figures, in which they are rather over represented.
You may not like to hear this on Mudcat, but I can assure you that this is the prevailing public opinion.

The fault is of course not with the immigrants, who are doing what they see as the best for themselves and their families, but with the ridiculous "open door" immigration policy, demanded by the European Union.
All Parties are now making noises against this policy, (a couple of years ago they were screaming "racist" against anyone who voiced such views......fucking hypocrits....they should apply for membership here! :0)


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Jul 13 - 01:49 PM

Don "open door immigration" is not about fairness, equality, or even diversity! Cant you read? "To make us competitive in the global economy"......For fuck sake!! By a (Labour) prime minister.


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jul 13 - 02:50 PM

BBC, 2011.
"By mid-2010 the estimated resident population was 62,262,000, an increase of 470,000 (0.8%) on the previous year."

So my statement was accurate Musket, and you were wrong.


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jul 13 - 02:52 PM

"To make us competitive in the global economy"......For fuck sake!! By a (Labour) prime minister.
And the new Labour leader acknowledges and admits they were wrong to let immigration run so high.


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: GUEST,Musket being patriotic
Date: 24 Jul 13 - 03:02 AM

Immigration did run high. But skill gaps still existed. That was the stance of the previous government.

The 2011 estimate was adjusted to take the previous census into account and adjustments there are large to reflect the 10 year span.

There are three population figures, Home Office, Department of Health and combined local government figures. The difference between any two is larger than the tweaked political increase Keith quoted.

Yes, immigration is going up. Yes, we are filling the skills gap slowly. No, , economic migrants are not the source of society's ills.

As convenient as that is to shallow minds. Minds that call a 50000 people difference identical.

Perhaps a push on addressing 3rd generation neets of the indigenous population may be a better use of political concentration.


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 Jul 13 - 03:56 AM

But, you see, Keith, the new report established exactly the opposite of what you wish to assert. We need the immigration or our debt to GDP ratio goes toxic.


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 24 Jul 13 - 04:20 AM

""Don "open door immigration" is not about fairness, equality, or even diversity! Cant you read? "To make us competitive in the global economy"......For fuck sake!! By a (Labour) prime minister.""

Can you read Ake?

Would you like to point out where I have ever advocated an open door policy?

I have merely countered the ridiculous comments you make about training up our own people.

Immigrants end up in the most dead end jobs, on which our own population don't seem very keen to dirty their hands, unless they have qualifications.

Those who are qualified can only find positions where unfilled vacancies exist. If we don't have a sufficient number of home grown doctors to fill those vacancies, we have to fill them with whatever qualified personnel are available.

We can't force people to take up medicine as a profession.

As for the fact that immigrants may prefer their own dress, religion and customs to becoming good conforming Little Britons, it isn't exactly without parallel in British history.

For centuries we have had a Jewish population who fulfil all of those criteria, withaout the slightest detriment to the country as a whole. In fact, they are a positive asset to society.

Your narrow perspective on the different, be they travellers, Muslims, or Aliens from space, does you no credit whatever.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jul 13 - 04:33 AM

But, you see, Keith, the new report established exactly the opposite of what you wish to assert.
Is the report significant?
Has any single politician of any party referred to it?
Has any media organ done more than report its publication on the day?


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: Stu
Date: 24 Jul 13 - 04:50 AM

"The Scots integrate fully with UK society, some other sectors do not."

A significant proportion of them don't want to, which why there'll be a referendum in independence.


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jul 13 - 04:52 AM

May I ask again where more people would live.
We were in 2011 already adding a city bigger than Manchester annually to our population, and the trend was increasing.
We already have a massive housing shortfall.


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Jul 13 - 11:17 AM

Stu...You surely knew that I was referring to social integration, why did you bring up the subject of political independence for Scotland?

I am very much in favour of Scottish political and economic independence, despite the blatent courting of the media and playing politics by Fat Eck and Slimy Sturgeon.

Go into any supermarket in any small town and you will hear eastern European languages being spoken...large families wheeling round multiple shopping trolleys...dont tell me our society is not being changed by economic immigration.


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: GUEST,Musket shaking his head
Date: 24 Jul 13 - 01:11 PM

Ooh. Fuck me! How dare people speak anything other than incoherent Haggis Speke in Bonnie Och Aye The Noo Land? They'll be asking supermarkets to stock foreign muck next! How can you batter and deep fry stroganoff? Not natural, so it isn't.

And multiple shopping trolleys! Quick! Call the newspapers! Greedy bastards!


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 24 Jul 13 - 02:07 PM

Dum de dum de dum de dum!!


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: Stu
Date: 24 Jul 13 - 02:26 PM

"You surely knew that I was referring to social integration, why did you bring up the subject of political independence for Scotland?"

Isn't independence a social as well as political and cultural matter? What the Scots are doing is asserting their social and cultural differences from the English by leaving the union, effectively de-integrating from the rest of us.


"...dont tell me our society is not being changed by economic immigration."

Always has, always will be. Didn't you ready my earlier post? The truth is many of my good friends are people who've come here (England) from other countries, whether it be Ireland, Scotland, Wales, Poland, Bangladesh or where ever else. I mean, I've got Welsh (Mum), English (Dad), Scot, Roma and French ancestors, so I'm part of the problem.

This is a non-issue. Our housing shortage is not due to immigration, but to the fact Thatcher sold off the social housing stock, priced people out of entire postcodes and ever since no-one has built enough houses to make up the shortfall. Blaming immigrants is going for the low-hanging fruit and provides an easy and visible scapegoat that is unlikely to fight back, but is vulnerable to the more undesirable elements of society (like the Daily Mail and UKIP). What about all those 'native' (what should they be called?) people that are unable to stop popping out sprogs? What about unscrupulous landlords?

The right rely on hatred and fear to cajole the more gullible in society into believing they are at risk from some sort of menace, but it's a ploy that preys on the unquestioning. Our multicultural society is a strength rather than a weakness, and we have been multicultural for a long, long time,


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: GUEST,Musket making a point
Date: 24 Jul 13 - 03:04 PM

The right / wrong will always find scapegoats whist ever gullible chippy idiots with shallow hearts and twisted brains fall for their hate filled lies. 'twas ever thus.

I was tempted to have a Godwin moment then but a Keith /Akenaton moment serves the same purpose.


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jul 13 - 06:15 PM

fall for their hate filled lies
Musket, who are you accusing?
I have no hate and despite your mocking have been accurate and correct.
If you mean me, identify anything not wholly true in any post.

Our housing shortage is not due to immigration, but to the fact Thatcher sold off the social housing stock,
No it is not.
Those houses still exist and are occupied.
There are not enough houses because population growth has far exceeded any capacity to build.
A new Manchester just can not be built every year.


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jul 13 - 05:47 AM

Whatever the cause of the homelessness crisis, there is no denying it exists and it will take decades at least to significantly reduce it.

So may I ask yet again, if even more people arrive, where will they live?


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jul 13 - 05:54 AM

More hate as usual
Where will they live, perhaps in houses they have bought from money they earned themselves - maybe from building houses?
Britain became rich and powerful through manipulating the culture, politics, natural resources and labour of others (and to some extent, still does) - maybe its our turn to bite the bullet.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: Musket
Date: 25 Jul 13 - 06:20 AM

Interesting "our" there...

Keith, if my comments ring a bell with anybody, then it themselves they should be addressing questions to, not me. I merely feel disgusted by narrow mindedness from people who have the intelligence to trawl statistics but the agenda to be selective and use them to push a point that if were justified, would be apparent without ignoring the rest of the facts that add balance.

Anyway, I said Keith. I am not sure if there are any other Keiths posting on this thread?

My mocking as you put it is a reaction to selective fact trawling. If people wanted to read such things, newspapers and leaflets from the likes of UKIP satisfy that particular craving. A craving, sadly, that many people seem to exhibit...


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Jul 13 - 09:41 AM

Jim's answer is basically, due to our bad history we deserve all the negative effects which unregulated immigration will inflict on our society.
That's an interesting answer, but surely rules out any positive results?

STU. "The right rely on hatred and fear to cajole the more gullible in society into believing they are at risk from some sort of menace, but it's a ploy that preys on the unquestioning. Our multicultural society is a strength rather than a weakness, and we have been multicultural for a long, long time."
Ah..another member of the "faith", what you have said Stu, is the unquestioning dogma of "liberalism", dont assume that people on the "political left" dont oppose unregulated immigration.
All political parties now do so, allbeit that they have been dragged screaming and kicking to that position.....people of good sense from all political persuasions have opposed it for years.

Most economic immigrants have no interest in social integration, their homes and hearts are elsewhere, they want to make some money and get back home as soon as possible. Others through cultural or religious reasons have no wish to integrate with a nation of debauched, perverted, infidels.


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Jul 13 - 09:41 AM

Jim's answer is basically, due to our bad history we deserve all the negative effects which unregulated immigration will inflict on our society.
That's an interesting answer, but surely rules out any positive results?

STU. "The right rely on hatred and fear to cajole the more gullible in society into believing they are at risk from some sort of menace, but it's a ploy that preys on the unquestioning. Our multicultural society is a strength rather than a weakness, and we have been multicultural for a long, long time."
Ah..another member of the "faith", what you have said Stu, is the unquestioning dogma of "liberalism", dont assume that people on the "political left" dont oppose unregulated immigration.
All political parties now do so, allbeit that they have been dragged screaming and kicking to that position.....people of good sense from all political persuasions have opposed it for years.

Most economic immigrants have no interest in social integration, their homes and hearts are elsewhere, they want to make some money and get back home as soon as possible. Others through cultural or religious reasons have no wish to integrate with a nation of debauched, perverted, infidels.


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: GUEST,Musket again
Date: 25 Jul 13 - 09:44 AM

100!

Right. Shut the doors...


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Jul 13 - 09:47 AM

Multiculturalism makes us strong?....try telling that to Lee Rigby's folks, or the hundreds of little girls abused and trafficked because they were just "trash".


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: GUEST,Musket pissing himself
Date: 25 Jul 13 - 09:52 AM

I'd not want to integrate with you and people of your mindset either..

I've said this before. Years ago in a local pub when I lived in The People's Republic of Bolsover, the tap room was noisy, laughter etc. a black man walked to get drinks for us family, in the beer garden. They were hiking. The room went quiet.

So... What's all this crap about integrating?

Most people who come in do so for (put any example here). They don't come in to fit into Akenaton's fantasy.


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: Green Man
Date: 25 Jul 13 - 10:34 AM

There is nothing wrong with our road system.

There is nothing wrong with our rail system

There is nothing wrong with The NHS

There is nothing wrong with the housing stock

There are too many people. We don't need any more.

We need to send non productive hangers on back to their own countries.

Deport criminals who are foreign nationals.

Send all the politician to live in 'ordinary' houses like the rest of us. Pay them what they are WORTH not what they tell us they are worth.

Save money by not being in the EEC and NOT having NUKES. Become another Swiss type country.

Police our fisheries for our fishermen.

Tell the Americans that they can hold wars on their own they don't need us.

Tell the TRUTH. Do whats right. Grow a pair.

Lead the world through our innate sense of right and innovation.

Osborne needs to go live somewhere else. For good!

Have nice Day. :)


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: Musket
Date: 25 Jul 13 - 10:57 AM

What has Lee Rigby got to do with it?

If we didn't let Scottish people into England, we wouldn't have had Ian Brady...

The more desperate you get, the more offensive your posts. Do yourself a favour, save power and turn your computer off? White homophobic bigots don't "do" crime then?


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 25 Jul 13 - 11:16 AM

""Most economic immigrants have no interest in social integration, their homes and hearts are elsewhere, they want to make some money and get back home as soon as possible. Others through cultural or religious reasons have no wish to integrate with a nation of debauched, perverted, infidels.""

One cannot help wondering where all the born in Britain adults of Chinese, German, Polish, Pakistani, Indian, African and Caribbean, yes and Scottish extraction came from, if what you say is true Ake.

The answer, of course, is that their parents were immigrants who don't fit your hastily concocted and specious argument, having stayed here for many years and contributed a great deal to this country.

The fact that some still wear their own style of dress and worship in mosques, synagogues and temples instead of attending the kirk like good little protestants, while it irks you greatly, has no bearing on their respectability as citizens, nor on their value to the country as a whole.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: Stu
Date: 25 Jul 13 - 11:24 AM

"Ah..another member of the "faith""

An apostate I'm afraid, I align myself with no political party now as they're all as corrupt and idiotic as each other. There's no-one speaks for me at the moment, so I speak and act for myself. However, if caring for people, culture and society makes me a 'lefty', then so be it. It's not my problem if people need to affix labels to others in order to place them in a defunct and largely irrelevant political category. Have you really got to have a label for other people to understand your political stance? Such a lack of imagination.

"All political parties now do so, allbeit that they have been dragged screaming and kicking to that position...."

Well, the LibDumbs, nasty tories and pointless labour have, but that's because they're scrambling for the votes of the aspirational middle class, a demographic that seems so in awe of materialism and the consumerism that the fear of loosing them seems to have smothered their ability to reason. These people are being herded like sheep by vacuous, populist politics into a right-wing society that is intolerant, divisive and utterly lacking compassion, and eventually that leads down a very dark path indeed. The fact the coalition gets away with shafting the NHS is because it knows it can get away with UKIP-lite racist comments that play on people's fear of some mythical foreign enemy in our midst. Complete shite no doubt, and if everyone was so concerned about the very real threat of inequality and the influence of big business on our political class then we might actually get something done in this country.


. . .try telling that to Lee Rigby's folks, or the hundreds of little girls abused and trafficked because they were just "trash".

V. poor. Low hanging-fruit, and a rather distasteful argument that has fuck all to do with multiculturalism and lots to do with easily led thickos and pervs, which are not exclusive to any culture or race.


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jul 13 - 12:13 PM

"Interesting "our" there..."
Why?
"we deserve all the negative effects which unregulated immigration will inflict on our society."
The "negative" effects lie purely in the imagination of the beholder (or in some beholders)
Some Brits still don't have the best of reputations abroad - try Faliraki or Aya Napa sometime.
The bulk of immigrants to Britain (Asians in particular) are well behaved, industrious and law-abiding and have made a valuable contribution to the country.
I read last week that the greatest contributors to charitable organisations in Britain are Muslims, closely followed by Jews - or did they get that wrong too?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: GUEST,Musket getting bored now
Date: 25 Jul 13 - 03:20 PM

I appreciate your supporting the idea that racism is repugnant Mr Carroll.

My comment was the "we" from someone who elected to live abroad.


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jul 13 - 04:31 PM

"My comment was the "we" from someone who elected to live abroad."
So ******* what?
How long do you have to be away from home before you lose your British citizenship or the right to comment on what is done in your name as a British citizen?
Even Bollix like Keith attempt to disassociate themselves from your shitty little small mindedness - you people really are parochial, small-minded dickheads.
"I appreciate your supporting the idea that racism is repugnant Mr Carroll"
Yes I certainly do - and that would easily include your display of it here.
Just a reminder - "living abroad" is a major part of our British history and heritage - ask the children of 'The Raj' or those who created 'Northern Ireland' with all the body bags that that filled, or invented Pakistan.....
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Jul 13 - 04:50 PM

Stu....YOU are busily attaching labels all over this thread.
You talk of people being herded into a right-wing society....you must be joking!....The media rules who governs Britain nowadays.
"Socialism" is a prohibited word and "Conservatism" is a wooly mess of "liberal" ideology.

Next year they are to be re-branded as "New Tories"....does that ring a bell?

The little girls were assumed to be "trash" because they were part of a culture which is viewed by a section of society as trashy, debauched and godless!......I do not consider that as social integration.


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jul 13 - 05:10 PM

Where will they live, perhaps in houses they have bought from money they earned themselves - maybe from building houses?

I believe there are whole estates of houses standing empty where you live Jim.
Here, there is a catastrophic shortage of homes and the misery of homelessness.
Building can not even keep up with the present rise, so Jim, where would we put even more people?
You could only displace others.

trawl statistics but the agenda to be selective and use them to push a point that if were justified,

I have only given one statistic, the annual population growth.
How can you trawl a single statistic?
How can you be selective with one statistic?


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jul 13 - 02:47 AM

I bloody well know the position of housing in Britain, and I also know that the accusation of them "coming over and taking our houses, jobs and women" has been the rallying cry of every squalid little would-be Klanner from time immemorial.
There is overcrowding in some parts of Britain, London and parts of lowland Scotland in particular, and there are other parts that are ripe for development, which would be a tremendous boost to the British economy - take a look at some of the North of England ghost towns that have fallen into dereliction because there are no takers - I saw enough of them on our recent visit there.
Prices of houses and building land are the main causes of any housing problems, not shortage of space, and using this argument as an excuse to restrictl immigration has been the sewage that has fed the BNP, EDL and every other little group of squalids you seem to root for on this forum.
Ireland's 'Ghost Estate' problems came about because of entrepreneurial greed and corrupt and incompetent politicians - so no great difference between here and Britain in that respect.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: GUEST,Musket between courses
Date: 26 Jul 13 - 03:14 AM

Oy Carroll!

You could start an argument in an empty room.

I didn't disagree with you but smiled at the"we." If that is seen as racist, you really have a problem. One that affects the credibility of your argument.

And that's a pity. This debate, you are broadly on the side of the mythical angels.

Keith. As you trawl statistics here's a challenge. Factor in the rise in empty properties and the potential in Brown field sites. Add the aging population statistics and give yourself another starting point. You may find your blood pressure could lower a little.

Global population is increasing. Fact.
UK immigration linked to that? A mental leap until you examine the facts.

Go for it.


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 26 Jul 13 - 04:00 AM

"... others for cultural or religious reason have no wish to integrate with a nation of debauched, perverted infidels." There are two sides to this (as is often the case) I assume the poster is referring to immigrant Muslims. One can't deny that some sections of our indigenous population are truly debauched, for example some types of drunk/drugged/sexually incontinent young people. Perversion does exist among paedophiles and hard-porn enthusiasts. From the point of view of a God-fearing and strictly moral group, this must be truly disgusting and horrifying. But 'not wishing to integrate' is rather a sweeping statement. There are Christians/Jews etc too, born and bred here, who find these things impossible to accept or tolerate. (I'm one of those) And there are many immigrant Muslims for example who mix in quite happily and contribute much to UK society (eg my husband). The trouble with how this thread is developing is that sweeping statements and generalisations revealing prejudice and racism are being posted, which only serve to create an unedifying slanging match. The fact is, some people here are racist and xenophobic while others are tolerant and accepting. They'll never change eachothers' viewpoints, so why continue with insults and vituperation?


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jul 13 - 04:05 AM

"Oy Carroll! "
Oy - Blunderbus - sorry, best I can do as you choose to hide behind anonimity (apologies for my borrowing this very apt epithet to whoever first coined it for this clown: it fits like a glove).
If you can't see the racist nature of Keith's regular ploy of attempting to undermine the rights of giving an opinion to anybody who can't produce proof of a centuries old pedigree of British citizenship, then you're thicker that I first took you to be - which I would have thought pretty near impossible - life's full of surprises!
It produces a shiver down the spine to think you might regard us to agree on anything.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Jul 13 - 04:27 AM

Eliza,,,This discussion has nothing to do with racism, it's about whether or not unrestricted immigration is good for the UK.

Keith says that we do not have the housing stock to accomodate the huge number who will be arriving next year, and I maintain that our policy of "multiculturalism"( different cultures living totally separately, but nominally together), is not working and is a disaster waiting to happen.
We have large immigrant (muslim) populations in Glasgow, they have been here for many years, but social integration is almost nil.

Please stop trying to paint this as a battle between the "racist and zenophobic" and the "accepting and tolerant" :0)


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Jul 13 - 04:29 AM

Oldest trick in the book!


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Jul 13 - 04:53 AM

Keith. As you trawl statistics here's a challenge.
Only one number, the annual pop. increase.
One number is not a trawl!
You may find your blood pressure could lower a little.
You are thinking of apoplectic Jim.
I am not emotionally involved.
Just chatting.

Prices of houses and building land are the main causes of any housing problems, not shortage of space
The price of land and homes is the inevitable result of a shortage.
If they were plentiful they would be cheap.
England is the most overcrowded place in Europe and among the most overcrowded in the world.
And, the South East is by far the most overcrowded part of England.
It is indeed, a long, long wat from Clare to here.


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jul 13 - 05:05 AM

"The price of land and homes is the inevitable result of a shortage."
No they aren't - the price of land is entirely down to the historically irresponsible profiteering by land and building speculation which was encouraged by governments of every hue irresponsibly turning homes into commodities.
Putting it down to race as you and Nick Griffin do is as old as 'No Irish Need Apply' if not older.
Ake sums it up pretty succinctly and far more honestly with his "multiculturalism" - still racist, but far nearer your stance.
You haven't even gone near the many thousands of estates of derelict houses in need of refurbishment, but avoiding the awkward facts is what you do best - "It is indeed, a long, long wat from Clare to here" second only to attempting to undermine what I have to say by emphasizing my living in Ireland of course - must fill in one of those 'racial purity' forms sometime.
Jim Carroll
S


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: Musket
Date: 26 Jul 13 - 05:09 AM

Oy Carroll!

It isn't that I can't see Keith for what he occasionally portrays, its that you obviously don't read my posts before commenting on me. You are so bloody thick, you seem to think any laugh at you means taking the polarised opposite view of you. I shudder to think I could be in agreement with you on most matters, but saying I support Keith is just laziness and ignorance on your part. I raised an eyebrow over your use of "we." If you want an argument, I would have picked up on your pathetic point that we somehow "deserve" the negative aspects of immigration.

No. I celebrate the melting pot, I celebrate that as a kid I lived on overboiled veg, but my children were brought up on a fusion of many different wonderful foods. I celebrate that I am going to a mate's house tonight to help break his fast with a party (iftar) and the same mate and family will be at our Xmas party. I love that the small market town walking distance from our village has such a choice of restaurants. I celebrate that of the 30 or so people who see me as their "boss" we have seven countries of origin, four declared different religions and all points in-between, and we all had a great time at the BBQ the other week.

My name is Ian Mather by the way. I have never hid behind anything. Perhaps my fault is that of understanding and going along with the spirit of discussion forums. Not wearing a name badge doesn't alter the validity of a view, and only shallow people think otherwise. Not traditional enough for you, obviously.


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jul 13 - 05:16 AM

On the subject of racial purity Keith - none of us are %100 pure - now lay off
Jim Carroll
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acheson_(surname)


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Jul 13 - 05:25 AM

Eliza...I have a business aquaintance who is muslim, we discuss these things. He says that they are taught that Western society is debauched, family life is neglected, we prostitute our women in advertising etc, that homosexuality is a perversion and a sin.

A huge percentage of muslims accept this view and wish to protect their children from Western social values.

I tell him that most of what they are taught is correct, but we have come to accept our way of life as "personal freedom" and "equality".

What else can I say?


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Jul 13 - 05:26 AM

- the price of land is entirely down to the historically irresponsible profiteering by land and building speculation which was encouraged by governments of every hue irresponsibly turning homes into commodities.
Total rubbish.
If land and homes were sufficiently available, there would be no upward pressure on prices, and profiteering could not happen.
Homeseekers have to compete desperately with each other for a scarce commodity. Of course the price of housing becomes unaffordable.

Putting it down to race as you and Nick Griffin do
That is a lie.
I never have.
Or would you like to provide an example?
Any example.
Put up the very worst you can find Jim, or admit your lie.


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Jul 13 - 05:34 AM

Daily Telegraph 2008
England has overtaken the population density of Holland, which has traditionally been the most densely-populated major nation on the continent.

The count, which has been attributed to higher levels of immigration, shows England now has 395 people per square kilometre.

The figures were obtained in a parliamentary answer from the Office of National Statistics.

In 2008 the average number of people per square kilometre in Britain was 253, rising to 395 in England.

Latest figures from Holland show that its population density was 395 a square kilometre in 2002 and 393 in 2005. It is estimated that English population density will rise to 464 people for every square kilometre by 2031.

The population density in England is already almost double the level in Germany and quadruple that in France.

Beyond Europe, England's population density is among the highest in the world for major countries. England ranks third in density after Bangladesh (1,045 per sq km) and South Korea (498 per sq km).
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/2967374/England-is-most-crowded-country-in-Europe.html


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jul 13 - 06:15 AM

"If land and homes were sufficiently available, there would be no upward pressure on prices, and profiteering could not happen."
The percentage figures for overpopulation grossly distort the overall picture - Overcrowding is centered in larger ares, London and Glasgow being the main ones, there is plenty of undeveloped land available elsewhere.
And still you refuse to address derelict and empty homes issue which, if tackled, could ease both the supposed shortage of homes and many of Britain's economic difficulties.
Tackling this would affect the price of fresh building land which is available, but it's far easier to use the race card rather than tackling the real problem, which affects far more people than immigrants.
Should immigration be stopped tomorrow, the poorer people of Britain would still be faced with the problems brought about by political disinterest and corporate greed, which the present incumbents in Westminster have no intention in tackling.
The crises in both Britain and Ireland were brought about by predatory speculation and calculated political incompetence and neglect. They predates any increase in immigration figures, even significant immigration to Britain itself; I know this because I was brought up on (and have just visited) one of Britain's largest 'problem estates' - when was the last time you visited (let alone lived on) one of these?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Jul 13 - 08:22 AM

Obviously some parts of any country are more overcrowded than others, but England is the most crowded country in Europe, and third in the whole world.

The context Jim, is about INCREASING the level of immigration while there is already a massive shortage of housing and a crisis of homelessness.
I am just asking where all the additional people will live.

If only there was a very uncrowded, almost empty land nearby, with thousands and thousands of brand new homes all standing empty.

Any thoughts Jim?


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: Musket
Date: 26 Jul 13 - 08:37 AM

"I talk to a Muslim who tells me...."

Answer your door to a Jehova's Witness and he shall tell you everything the local vicar stands for.. Do you know, them old women who sneak into church every Sunday? They incite riot you know? Their battle songs start with lines such as Fight the Good Fight! and Onward Christian Soldiers! They don't want a fair society, they want religious law imposed on us all! Save us ! Save us!

zzzzzzzzz

Most Muslims I know stand for raising their family, getting on, supporting their local football, cricket or rugby team and trying to ensure they are not a drain on the system. If I could make a generalisation, it would be the work ethic, based on my experience.

I used to inspect prisons, and speaking to the Imams on the chaplaincy teams, it would appear there are quite a few armed robbers, rapists and people with sever mental health problems including personality disorder too.

You know what that all adds up to?

UK citizens all.


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jul 13 - 09:11 AM

" but England is the most crowded country in Europe"
The mindless repetition of this and the constant and deliberate ignoring of the fact that there are many houses standing empty for want of attention only underlines your on-going agenda of making immigrants the enemy of the British way of life. Throw in the fact that there is also a great deal of built up, but unused property that could be used for domestic building and you have more than enough room to alleviate overcrowding in Britain if the will was there to do so,
I repeat - the ending of immigration would alter the 'supposed' overcrowding in Britain
Your either deliberate or totally ignorant misrepresentation of the Irish sutuation only serves to underline your agenda-driven hatred.
The empty houses in Ireland are the direct result of predatory banks overlending in the good times, largely for second homes; few efforts were made to accommodate permanent residents in rural areas.

"If only there was a very uncrowded, almost empty land nearby,"

There are indeed a great many newly built homes here - some statistical facts to put that in context.
"Present population of Ireland 4.576 million
Focus Ireland estimates that there are up to 5,000 people who are homeless in Ireland at any one time. You can view some facts and figures on the number of homeless here. A small minority of people who are homeless sleep rough but most stay in emergency accommodation such as a hostel or a night shelter, a B&B, with family and friends or in a squat.
All of these are very stressful and short-term arrangements. In some of them only essential living necessities are available; in others not even basic needs are being met. None of them is a place to call home.
There are also thousands more families and single people who are at risk of becoming homeless. These people are often at risk of losing their current accommodation due to various reasons including struggling to pay their rent or falling in to serious mortgage arrears.
Focus Ireland works to support people in these situations (And people in groups that are deemed to be particularly vulnerable to homelessness) to prevent them from becoming homeless in the first place.
People who are homeless can find it very difficult to find a place to live. There is a large waiting list for local authority housing* (* Over 98,000 households in 2011) and there is very little housing association accommodation available.
Focus Ireland has called for the government to set a new deadline of 2013 to end long-term homelessness. The previous target of 2010 was not met, mainly because of the failure by successive government to provide the housing vital to move people out of homelessness.
Focus Ireland believes that it is possible to both and homelessness."

Homelessness, here or elsewhere has nothing to do with the availability of land for new building, rather, it has everything to do with the political and social will to tackle the problem - but there again, it's a handy, time-tested stone to throw at 'Johnny Foreigner'.
So far you have used paedophelia, terrorism - even the murder of a soldier as a platform for your racist hatred, sometimes going to unbelievable lengths to turn the crimes of a few into the 'cultural tendencies' of all; now you have turned to 'overcrowding' to extend that platform - the energy that you are prepared to put into your campaign is more than a little gob-smackingly admirable.
All these issues are genuine concerns, but none of them have the silightes to do with immigration or multi-culturalism
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 26 Jul 13 - 10:46 AM

"The Scots integrate fully" As do the English in Scotland. Many a Scot has English parents or at least one English parent and they are no less Scottish for that. Integration is basically seemless. Others aren't accepted quite so readily. It is down to racial, cultural and religious differences. No such great massive difference between English and Scots so no real serious discrimination is present. You do still get a tiny minority (ie like the obnoxious Siol nan Gaidheal group) who would look to repatriate English incomers - though you could probably fit the entire bunch of that shadey lot in the back of a couple of buses.


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Jul 13 - 11:22 AM

you have more than enough room to alleviate overcrowding in Britain if the will was there to do so,

No we do not Jim.
Wiki.
"The official figures[6] from the Department for Communities and Local Government for England (not including the rest of the UK) are that on average 498 people sleep rough each night, with 248 of those in London. There are a total of 84,900 households (which may contain more than one person) that are classified as homeless"

There are not 84 900 spare houses.
And we have 470 000 EXTRA people every year.

If you deny that England has a severe housing shortage and desperate homelessness, you are an ignorant fool.
If you do not deny it, where will you put even more people?


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Jul 13 - 11:26 AM

The empty houses in Ireland are the direct result of predatory banks overlending in the good times, largely for second homes;

Whatever the causes, Ireland has spare houses, but England has none.


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Jul 13 - 12:08 PM


On the subject of racial purity Keith - none of us are %100 pure - now lay off


I have always known that stuff Jim.
I have no issues about "racial purity" and "on the subject" is made up by you.
We were never "on that subject" and I would never contribute to a thread that was.


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jul 13 - 12:18 PM

"Whatever the causes, Ireland has spare houses, but England has none."
I have no idea where your figures came from but according to Shelter as reported in the Guardian there are a quarter of a million habitable homes lying vacant - there are no figures for how many there are in need of repair in order to make them habitable, but you can bet there are at least that many again.
There are also no figures available for how many vacant non-domestic properties are available for demolition in order to produce land for domestic building.
Another fact to be taken into consideration is that immigrants in general do not build, so the question of there being no land for building purposes does not enter into the equation as far as they are concerned.
A policy of producing affordable homes and a will to tackle the problem is what is needed, not cutting back on immigration.   
And as I have said and you have chosen to ignore over and over again, stopping immigration tomorrow would not make one iota of difference to the housing shortage, real or imagined; what is lacking is not the homes, but rather, the will to tackle to problems of homelessness.
This would mean a return to pre-Thatcher Britain, when homes were regarded as just that - homes, and not investments.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 26 Jul 13 - 01:49 PM

pre-Thatcher Britain, when homes were regarded as just that - homes, and not investments.
Jim Carroll


Oh yes ~~ and the bees buzzed in the cigarette trees and the soda water flowed from the fountains by the lemonade springs where the bluebird sang...

Get real, eh Jim?

As if!


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: GUEST,Musket being patriotic
Date: 26 Jul 13 - 02:16 PM

Michael. It cringes me to read your post, so it does.

There were never any bluebirds in Britain other than the ones Vera Lynn set free near Dover for the cameras. Apparently wiped out by a single sparrowhawk.

Lemonade fountains. That's a different story. Made by Wunderbar with up to 12 buttons although the multi hose gets stiff at that level...

Just thought I'd get that in before the expat with attitude points it out in all seriousness.


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 26 Jul 13 - 02:37 PM

Aaaarrrrggghhhh ~~ it was not so when Neil did reign and this old hat was new...


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Jul 13 - 02:49 PM

stopping immigration tomorrow would not make one iota of difference to the housing shortage

Net immigration is 250 000 every year.
How could it not "make an iota of difference" not having to find a bed and a roof for a quarter of a million extra people every year.

Immigration is the main factor driving our ballooning population, so obviously it does make a very big difference to the lack of homes for so many people.

You have chosen to live in a country bigger than England, with a whole population less than half that of London, with many thousands of brand new, empty houses, and with a substantial NET EXODUS!
You are not well placed to lecture us on the need to increase our immigration.


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jul 13 - 03:30 PM

I take it we've away from the nonsense of there being no houses available! Don't suppose you'd like to comment on your misinformation - no? I thought not.
"Net immigration is 250 000 every year."
You assume, as you would, of course, that all immigrants enter Britain without support, without having families to assist them and offer them accommodation, without having the wherewithal to purchase some of the half million unoccupied houses that are presumably on the market - in fact, that their presence will be an immediate strain on the resources of the country - not true of course, certainly not the community conscious, hard working and resourceful Asian communities.
Of course there will be refugees, economic or otherwise, who will rely on assistance to start out, but the vast majority manage to make their own way without state assistance.
I've know some of them, especially those in the catering trade, who will live over their employers premises until they find their own accommodation - very common in restaurants.
There is no evidence whatever that they are a strain on the well-being of the country other than the shit poured out by the BNP, EDL, the scabloid press and scum like you.
Wonder if this appears familiar?   

"The current open-door policy and unrestricted, uncontrolled immigration is leading to higher crime rates, demand for more housing (driving prices out of the reach of young people), severe extra strain on the environment, traffic congestion, longer hospital waiting lists, lower educational standards, higher income taxes, lower wages, higher unemployment, loss of British identity, a breakdown in community spirit, more restrictive policing, higher council taxes, a shortage of council homes, higher levels of stress and unhappiness and a more atomised society."
http://www.bnp.org.uk/policies/immigration

Homelessness, paedophilia, terrorism - and everything else you and your kind put down to immigration have always been a part of the way of life of the lower paid in Britain - certainly much longer than the first passengers from The Windrush set foot on British soil   
Of course, your phantom friend who only appears to give you the backing you are not getting elsewhere (as long as he doesn't actually have to commit himself, of course) might be able to put me right from leafy Cambridgeshire – stranger things have happened!!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Jul 13 - 04:34 PM

I assume nothing.
You stated that immigration has no effect on our housing crisis.
Please justify that amazing theory.

This thread is about increasing immigration.
I just asked, given that we do not have enough houses for those here already, where would they live?


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jul 13 - 03:09 AM

You are the one making the accusations, you justify your claims - I don't have to - innocent until proved guilty - isn't that the way things are done in Britain?
Justify your claims that immigrants have a detrimental effects on the housing crisis in Britain; I have given reasons why they don't.
I say that it is a long-term situation caused by political indifference and corporate greed -
You have made a nonsensical claim that there are "no houses available in Britain", I say there are half a million habitable homes standing empty and have provided evidence to that fact - a pretty conclusive indication as to where the blame lies for the housing crisis (or are immigrants the cause of them not being occupied - I'm sure you are capable of making up some 'facts' to show they are if you set your mind to it)
Prove your statements or withdraw your hate-generated claims - though, as I said, you are far more likely to walk away from them - as you always do.
"I just asked, given that we do not have enough houses for those here already...."
Seems like only yesterday you were claiming there were none - oh, it was only yesterday.
Once again you've shown yourself to be the small-minded, racist little shit that you are - I'll settle for that.
I have little doubt you will continue to milk this subject for as long as anybody responds to you and will insist once again on having the last word, as you always do.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Jul 13 - 04:18 AM

The more people you have the more houses you need.
That is a simple and obvious fact.
If you deny we have a housing and homelessness crisis you are a fool.
It is also an insult to our desperate, homeless families.


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Jul 13 - 04:23 AM

6 June 2013

Government figures released today show that the number of homeless households in England has risen by 6% over the past year, to the highest in five years.

The figures also show a 14% rise in the number of people living in B&Bs. Shelter is warning that cuts to the housing safety net, added to the rising cost of housing, are already having a real impact.

B&B-style accommodation often means a single room for an entire family with no cooking facilities and a shared bathroom, sometimes miles away from their jobs and support networks. Though there is a legal requirement limiting this to six weeks for families, many have to stay in this situation for weeks, or even months.

Shelter is also worried that today's figures mask a further group of 'hidden homeless'; families who have lost their home but may not be counted in official statistics due to recent changes in the way councils handle homelessness applications.


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Jul 13 - 06:50 AM

Commenting on the report released by the Office for Budgetary Responsibility,(subject of Richard's OP) Sir Andrew Green, Chairman of Migration Watch UK, said:

"Once again the OBR has given only part of the story. It is true that, in the medium term, migration provides a larger pool of working age people which increases tax revenues. But, of course, migrants also get old so to maintain the same ratio of working age people to older people would require an ever increasing number of migrants each year.

On their immigration assumption of 140,000 a year we would add 14 million to the UK population in their 50 year time scale which is nearly a quarter of our present population.

All studies of the pension problem have concluded that the only way to tackle it is to increase the pension age as expectation of life increases. Furthermore the public have made it perfectly clear that the social and environmental consequences of continued mass immigration are unacceptable to them.

It is time that economists understood this."


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: Musket
Date: 27 Jul 13 - 07:41 AM

Migration Watch UK.

mmm There's an independent source... Interesting that he knows more about economics than economists. Presumably economists know more about blaming vulnerable sections of society for all society's ills....


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 27 Jul 13 - 09:47 AM

We own our house and we do not want any houses in our road falling into the hands of a Housing Association.


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 27 Jul 13 - 10:52 AM

What's the problem with housing associations? Are the common people not fit to live with?

Jeez, Bonzo. I can just picture you on your hind legs berating one and all at the convocation of the middle class worthies of Worthing or whichever leafy tree lined suburb you decided to put roots down in. "We don't want any asylum seekers/illegal immigrants/benefit cheats/bedroom tax dodgers/scroungers/layabouts/gypos or any of that scruffy lot they call the working class. Nice round your way is it?

You'd have been in your element in California in the days of the dust bowl.

Vigilante Man. Words and Music by Woody Guthrie

Have you seen that vigilante man?
Have you seen that vigilante man?
Have you seen that vigilante man?
I been hearin' his name all over the land.

Well, what is a vigilante man?
Tell me, what is a vigilante man?
Has he got a gun and a club in his hand?
Is that is a vigilante man?

Rainy night down in the engine house,
Sleepin' just as still as a mouse,
Man come along an' he chased us out in the rain.
Was that a vigilante man?

Stormy days we passed the time away,
Sleepin' in some good warm place.
Man come along an' we give him a little race.
Was that a vigilante man?

Preacher Casey was just a workin' man,
And he said, "Unite all you working men."
Killed him in the river some strange man.
Was that a vigilante man?

Oh, why does a vigilante man,
Why does a vigilante man
Carry that sawed-off shot-gun in his hand?
Would he shoot his brother and sister down?

I rambled 'round from town to town,
I rambled 'round from town to town,
And they herded us around like a wild herd of cattle.
Was that the vigilante men?

Have you seen that vigilante man?
Have you seen that vigilante man?
I've heard his name all over this land.


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 27 Jul 13 - 11:46 AM

""They'll never change eachothers' viewpoints, so why continue with insults and vituperation?""

1. Because we don't want Mudcat hitting the top of the search engines when people google "Racism".

2. Because we don't want people to get the idea that we are supporters of these low lifes.

3. Because there's a vanishingly small chance of opening a mind that is currently tight closed by inherited hatreds.

You see Eliza, one or two of us care enough to want to clear filthy prejudice out of here.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jul 13 - 11:47 AM

"If you deny we have a housing and homelessness crisis you are a fool."
And to continue to ignore that fact that there are half a million empty habitable houses and refuse to acknowledge that this fact not only is a main cause of homelessness in Britain, but that any Government that continues to ignore that fact makes you either extremely dishonest or extremely stupid.
To attempt to ignore this fact and blame immigration on homelessness is to be an agenda driven..... well, it's fairly obvious to all here what you are.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Jul 13 - 11:55 AM

For God's sake, either put up some facts to refute what Keith is saying, or get back in the creche!

To attempt to negate everything Keith says by shouting racist, is childish...and boring.


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 27 Jul 13 - 11:59 AM

""I tell him that most of what they are taught is correct, but we have come to accept our way of life as "personal freedom" and "equality".

What else can I say?
""

How about:

1. "Different strokes for different folks".

2. "Live and let live".

Either of which is better than you trying to promote equality(?)

Don T.


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jul 13 - 12:47 PM

"For God's sake, either put up some facts to refute what Keith is saying, or get back in the creche!"
You too are choosing to ignore them
Your stareter for 10
Half as million empty houses
Care to comment?
We're all aware where you as a Socialist (sic) on immigration.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jul 13 - 12:57 PM

Should read a millon
Jim Carroll

But Monbiot fails to mention that across Britain there are close to a million empty homes, and enough abandoned commercial buildings that could be converted into half a million new dwellings. These have far greater potential to create homes than filling up spare rooms. The number of empty homes has increased over recent years. Under-occupation has too, but not to the extent Monbiot claims. Relying on one figure in a report on energy use, Monbiot says that "between 2003 and 2008 there was a 45% increase in the number of under-occupied homes in England". But the English House Condition Survey shows an increase from 31% in 1995-96 to 37% in 2008-09.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/jan/13/housing-crisis-empty-homes


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 27 Jul 13 - 01:09 PM

""Latest figures from Holland show that its population density was 395 a square kilometre in 2002 and 393 in 2005. It is estimated that English population density will rise to 464 people for every square kilometre by 2031.""

There are seven countries in Europe more densely populated than the United Kingdom, as shown in the link below.

They are, in descending order, Monaco, Gibraltar, Malta, Jersey, San Marino, The Netherlands and Belgium.

""Beyond Europe, England's population density is among the highest in the world for major countries. England ranks third in density after Bangladesh (1,045 per sq km) and South Korea (498 per sq km).""

Anybody who doesn't go in for cherry picking statistics might enjoy looking at the 49 countries listed in the link below, all of whom are more densely populated than the United Kingdom.

Infoplease list

These figures are per square mile rather than square kilometre, but the ratio is the same.

The list is dated 2007.

Converting the UK figure of 650 per sq mi to sq km

you get 251 per sq km. OK so the figure of 395 for England is credible.

However the Netherlands, in 2007, according to that list was 1259 per sq mi. which converts to 486, certainly higher than England and almost double the UK figure. And the Netherlands was No 6 of the seven European countries above the UK.

I think that Telegraph figure was somewhat creative, indicating a rather nasty agenda.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Jul 13 - 03:55 PM

Jim, there a housing and homelessness crisis in England.
Everyone including your guardian piece agrees.
There are some empty houses because they are in the wrong places, as much good as all those empty new estates in Ireland.

I say again, if you deny our housing and homelessness crisis you are proved a dogma bound fool.


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Jul 13 - 03:59 PM

telegraph 14 hours ago.
Half a million immigrants given social housing in the last decade
Nearly half a million immigrants have been given taxpayer-funded homes over the past decade, it has been revealed.

Four million migrants arrived in Britain between 2001 and 2011, and of those 469,843 were given social housing
The news comes as the waiting list for social housing hits a record 1.8million, most of whom are British born.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/10205963/Half-a-million-immigrants-given-social-housing-in-the-last-decade.html


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jul 13 - 03:34 AM

"There are some empty houses"
Around a million - there are no figures whatever to indicate where these houses are, so once again you are making up facts.
The fact that that figure has all-but doubled in a coule of years shows conclusively that the housing crisis is down to Government (of all persuasions) incompetence and not immigration.
Immigration is as significant to this crisis as is predatory investment, the crisis caused by political incompetence and corpotate banking greed.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jul 13 - 04:27 AM

So Jim do you deny we have a crisis of housing and homelessness?


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: GUEST,Musket trying to do technology
Date: 28 Jul 13 - 05:23 AM

I notice the migration figures are being doubted. Not much of a mental leap to question immigration figures as they are extracted from the same sausage machine.


So lets stop bandying crap statistics eh?


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jul 13 - 07:39 AM

I have not given any immigration figures, just population figures which are not at all in question.


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: Musket
Date: 29 Jul 13 - 04:38 AM

Keith...



Ha Ha HA HA {chortle}    Oh dear, {wiping eyes.}

How can population figures be accurate if net adjustments (in/out) cannot be trusted?

As I asked above, which population figures do you mean anyway? There's more than one official government population measure. When I started interfering in The NHS, it amazed me to find the registered population (those registered with a GP) can be allowed to be out by 5% before GP practices had to make adjustments. (GP practices were remunerated (GMS) based on pratice list size.) The Audit Commission always qualified health authority (and later PCT) accounts where GP practices were quick to add babies to the list to get paid for them but were not so quick at dropping dead people off, as the system allowed them to work within 5% or so....

Allan. 7 Million coming over? err... Bollocks? The government do not expect that number, not even 5% of that number. The conservative party have used that figure, as have UKIP, BNP and others with an agenda, but just because the conservative party have people in the government, their political posturing is not government figures. The conservative party do not represent the government, they merely work for it. The Home Office is pointing out the measures in place to prevent mass migration from Eastern Europe. The Polish government is moaning about the numbers going back to Poland.

Germany is where the nervousness stands, as they will have to give them full status, unlike the Turkish workers there now. In any event, one of the many facets of EU status is the infrastructure rebuilding programs, so Bulgaria and Romania have jobs a plenty for the near future. OK, we are paying for them, but hey ho, we don't pay all we should be as equal partners, so we are let off lightly.

There shall be some. yes. A family from The Netherlands bought a house near me the other month. Perhaps I should put a Union Jack flag outside my house to make them feel more welcome?

(If Michael is reading this. Yes, I know it isn't a Jack unless it is on a UK registered ship in international or foreign waters.....)


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 29 Jul 13 - 04:58 AM

I note Keith apparently thinks that anyone who ever receives "social housing" stays in it for ever. How surprising.

Building council houses would be a damned good idea - and it would stimulate economic activity as well.


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 29 Jul 13 - 05:51 AM

Again the last post in this thread was not posted by me.

_____________________________________

The bogus posts have been dropped. The troll seems to be stirred up again. Ignore him and just let a moderator know if you see a fake post in your name. ----mudelf


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 29 Jul 13 - 06:27 AM

I've been the victim of identity theft on this board myself. So I'm happy to accept that whoever posted that message, about benefit offices and Eastern European immigrants, wasn't Allan Conn. However, he or she would have done well to read through the earlier messages on this topic.

If he or she had done so they would have found a message from me refuting the notion that significant numbers of Eastern Europeans will be coming here to live on benefit. For the benefit of the blinkered and the bigoted, and anyone who just plain can't see common sense, here it is again.

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This isn't an attempt to defend immigration on pragmatic grounds; IE., we'll let them in as long as Britain is a nett beneficiary. I would far rather argue the case on humanistic grounds and say that they are people just like us, except that they are often escaping the most unbelievable poverty, and deserve every chance they get.

However, two pieces of information worth bearing in mind:-

1. Many recent/forthcoming immigrants come from Eastern Europe. The pattern of immigration there is for people to migrate for a limited period, say four or five years, work like buggery to earn as much money as they can, and then go home.

2. Many recent/forthcoming immigrants are well educated young professionals who are moving here to start careers. I don't think anyone has established an immigration pattern for these people yet, but they are the type of people who would be a good solid asset to any nation.

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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Jul 13 - 06:51 AM

I note Keith apparently thinks that anyone who ever receives "social housing" stays in it for ever. How surprising

How stupid of you to note such a stupidly wrong thing Richard.
How surprising.

How can population figures be accurate if net adjustments (in/out) cannot be trusted?
Immigration figures are calculated by sampling at ports and airports.
The criticism is that the sample is too small leading to an error margin around 50 000.

Population figures are produced by ONS using census techniques on a very large scale, and you will find that no-one from any quarter has ever questioned them.

Except, now, you Ian.
Still laughing?


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: Musket
Date: 29 Jul 13 - 09:01 AM

Except The Commons Public Accounts Committee.
Except The Audit Commission.
Except me actually, yes.

Me and the other 1.4 million NHS employees, the vast majority of whom are aware of how practice populations don't match census populations which don't match local government populations. Background to how The NHS works and why forms induction training for all, and GP lists forming the registered population is day 1 Topsy & Tim info.

If they did match other population figures, planning of services would not be so fraught with difficulties. You forget too the number of people, including indigenous British people, who drop out of society, don't wish to be on the radar. Drop in clinics for specific health issues are used to seeing people for other primary care concerns as some people don't want to be "on the system." Sad indictment of how society is seen as big brother, and I don't just include new age travellers and illegal immigrants. After all, in the scheme of things, there aren't enough to get excited about. Unless it suits your agenda.....

Don't talk about population figures without stating which. As a rough guide, if we accept a population of say 60,000,000, and apply the 5% margin for GP practices to get up to date eventually, that figure alone has a tolerance of 3,000,000.

Makes your 50,000 look as irrelevant as your argument.



Allan. Whilst I have not always agreed with the real you on some matters, I apologise for thinking the above was you. 20/20 hindsight, it isn't consistent with your usual contribution.


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 29 Jul 13 - 10:29 AM

Xenophobe Keith says " Nearly half a million immigrants have been given taxpayer-funded homes over the past decade, it has been revealed. "


And how many have left them again?


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Jul 13 - 12:30 PM

Keith is no xenophobe and did not say that.
While we were discussing immigration and housing, that very issue was reported in Daily Telegraph, so I posted it without comment.

How does that invite the ludicrous, false description of xenophobe?
You are very quick to label someone you disagree with, rather than actually disagreeing.
That would require you to think of course.
Labelling is so much easier.


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Jul 13 - 12:43 PM

Musket, you might not be happy with ONS census data, but no-one knows how to provide better.
The immigration stats. have been criticised for the margin of error (35 000 not 50 000 as I said previously) because of the sample size (I think 50 000 of which only 5000 were migrants.)


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: GUEST,Fucking iPad!
Date: 29 Jul 13 - 03:19 PM

Try again..

ONS figures are used by some government departments. Practice population by others. The difference is far wider than the 50,000 you are arguing the toss over. Neither represents the population.

We don't know the population, we accept either estimate when planning relevant services. Immigration affects the real population. We don't know what that is any more than we know the numbers in or out.

Granted, you need to hang your point on whichever figures can be manipulated to support your prejudice and fear mongering.


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: Allan Conn
Date: 29 Jul 13 - 05:20 PM

"20/20 hindsight"

Thanks for that!


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: GUEST,Musket confused
Date: 29 Jul 13 - 05:28 PM

The iPad was me. The elves have removed the empty post I accidentally sent above it.


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 30 Jul 13 - 11:28 AM

Keith, you never miss an opportunity to criticise immigrants or Muslims. What else should I call you?


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Jul 13 - 12:04 PM

I have never criticised immigrants.
I think you made that up.

When we discussed the street grooming and trafficking of children I stated from the start that it was nothing to do with Islam.
I have never criticised a Muslim for being Muslim.
I have criticised objectionable behaviour in Muslims, Jews, Christians and many other groups.
No prejudice from me.

Your assumptions about be are wrong.
Go check.


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Subject: RE: Osborne wrong: UK immigration needed
From: GUEST,cujimmy
Date: 01 Aug 13 - 07:35 AM

Ive been helping homeless people in Bradford for 19 yrs, this is similar to what I see.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LapHYVbnCBo


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Mudcat time: 27 September 4:28 AM EDT

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