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BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden

number 6 15 Jul 13 - 09:34 AM
McGrath of Harlow 15 Jul 13 - 07:20 AM
skarpi 15 Jul 13 - 04:53 AM
GUEST,SJL 15 Jul 13 - 02:42 AM
GUEST 14 Jul 13 - 11:34 PM
Songwronger 14 Jul 13 - 10:10 PM
GUEST 14 Jul 13 - 09:13 PM
McGrath of Harlow 14 Jul 13 - 08:04 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 14 Jul 13 - 07:12 PM
McGrath of Harlow 14 Jul 13 - 05:01 PM
GUEST 13 Jul 13 - 08:30 PM
GUEST,SJL 13 Jul 13 - 08:25 PM
Bobert 13 Jul 13 - 04:13 PM
GUEST 13 Jul 13 - 03:06 PM
GUEST 13 Jul 13 - 12:02 PM
GUEST 13 Jul 13 - 10:57 AM
GUEST 13 Jul 13 - 03:00 AM
Suzy Sock Puppet 12 Jul 13 - 10:46 PM
Songwronger 12 Jul 13 - 08:34 PM
Don Firth 12 Jul 13 - 04:33 PM
GUEST 12 Jul 13 - 03:01 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 12 Jul 13 - 02:43 PM
GUEST 12 Jul 13 - 01:49 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 12 Jul 13 - 12:33 PM
GUEST 12 Jul 13 - 11:10 AM
GUEST 11 Jul 13 - 10:09 PM
Bobert 11 Jul 13 - 09:47 PM
GUEST 11 Jul 13 - 09:42 PM
Songwronger 11 Jul 13 - 09:24 PM
Bobert 11 Jul 13 - 09:20 PM
GUEST 11 Jul 13 - 09:13 PM
Bobert 11 Jul 13 - 08:21 PM
GUEST 11 Jul 13 - 08:16 PM
Don Firth 11 Jul 13 - 06:27 PM
GUEST 11 Jul 13 - 05:50 PM
GUEST,guest 11 Jul 13 - 05:45 PM
Bobert 11 Jul 13 - 01:30 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 11 Jul 13 - 12:50 PM
GUEST 10 Jul 13 - 10:41 PM
Bobert 10 Jul 13 - 09:32 PM
GUEST,Lynx 10 Jul 13 - 09:12 PM
GUEST,CS 10 Jul 13 - 03:44 PM
GUEST 10 Jul 13 - 02:36 PM
GUEST,CS 10 Jul 13 - 04:55 AM
GUEST,CS 10 Jul 13 - 04:49 AM
GUEST 09 Jul 13 - 09:37 PM
GUEST,CS 09 Jul 13 - 03:40 PM
GUEST 09 Jul 13 - 02:41 AM
McGrath of Harlow 08 Jul 13 - 10:55 PM
GUEST 08 Jul 13 - 07:18 PM
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Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
From: number 6
Date: 15 Jul 13 - 09:34 AM

Well said McGrath ... and if the U.S. declares that the "NSA spying is no big deal" than why are they out to get Snowden?

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Jul 13 - 07:20 AM

Snowden has revealed a number of things which are true, and which the US gvernment wished not to be revealed. As a consequence the US government is set on locking him up, probably for the rest of his life.

No one denies that the stuff he has revealed is true. No one, so far as I can see, has given any reason to think that any harm has been caused by the revelations, over and above embarassment to those in power in the US.

It's shameful that the only countries which have indicated they are open to giving him asylum are far away from where he is holed up, in Latin America. That's how far we have fallen in Europe, as evidenced by the humiliating episode in which a cabal of countries colluded in blocking overflights of a presidential plane which it was believed might have Snowden on board.


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Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
From: skarpi
Date: 15 Jul 13 - 04:53 AM

I hope Snowden tell the world all the rest he knows ...about US NSA ...


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Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
From: GUEST,SJL
Date: 15 Jul 13 - 02:42 AM

Did I ever tell you a Ukrainian folktale about a dog and a wolf?

Dog's getting up there in years. His people say he is not earning his keep anymore and begin to treat him accordingly. Dog laments his situation, stands on the brink of utter canine disillusionment...

Friend wolf says, "Major psy op. Let's stage a situation in which you will be proclaimed a hero. Let's say you save their beloved child from me." Plan works. Dog is ensured a dignified old age. Now dog owes wolf something.

Dog decides to treat wolf to a family gathering in which wolf will be permitted to eat and drink as he pleases in the company of those who would normally cast him out. A choice experience of which wolf is happy to partake.

Wolf attends and no one even notices. Wolf eats hearty, enough for several days- and then moves on to drinking and gets totally drunk! Then wolf says to dog, "I must sing." Dog says, "NO wolf! You mustn't do it!" Wolf can't help himself. Wolf begins to sing. Panic ensues.

Dog gets wolf out of this jam with the effect of becoming a hero yet again. Then dog says to wolf, "You got my back once and I got yours. Next time, you're on your own."

The End. Dog, Wolf take a bow (curtain closes)

Goodnight Henry.


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Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Jul 13 - 11:34 PM

Sometimes you can be thick as shit.


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Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
From: Songwronger
Date: 14 Jul 13 - 10:10 PM

NSA Blackmailing Obama? - Interview with Whistleblower Russ Tice

A 12-minute video. Former NSA whistleblower Russ Tice talks about receiving orders to tap phones, seeing names, saw Obama's name years ago (just after he made his convention speech). The NSA started spying on him. No telling what they're holding over his head.


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Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Jul 13 - 09:13 PM

>>Since the Russian government isn't set on banging up Snowden in jail, throwing away the key, and probably engage in all sorts of intriguing interrogation techniques, it makes perfect sense that theres's no "disconnect", and that he'd prefer to hole up there, bobert.<<

So, he only cares about what's best for Snowden and turn a blind-eye to Putin's abominable human rights record. But he couldn't turn a blind eye to a surveillance program? Actually, I see a huge disconnect, what a surprise that you can't.

>>Wouldn't you, in the circumstances? Be honest!<<

If I was claiming I'm trying to save the whole fucking world?? I don't think so. Russia is not the place to go. If I turned against my own country to punish them for electing Barack Obama, yeah, then I might.


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Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Jul 13 - 08:04 PM

Obviously. The US government appears to be engaged in a kind of reverse PR - making itself look nasty. Which of course is tye truth about both governments in many ways, but broadccasting that truth so openly isn't what you expect tyem to do.

The irony is that the thing they are so pissed off at Snowden for would appear to be because what he has done made the US government look bad - precisely what the pursuit of Snowden demonstrates to be accurate.


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Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 14 Jul 13 - 07:12 PM

All the Russian government wants to do is make propaganda points.


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Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Jul 13 - 05:01 PM

Since the Russian government isn't set on banging up Snowden in jail, throwing away the key, and probably engage in all sorts of intriguing interrogation techniques, it makes perfect sense that theres's no "disconnect", and that he'd prefer to hole up there, bobert.

Wouldn't you, in the circumstances? Be honest!


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Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Jul 13 - 08:30 PM

Marx with a lampshade on his head kills me everytime.


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Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
From: GUEST,SJL
Date: 13 Jul 13 - 08:25 PM

Yeah, I think so too. Justice for Trayvon. Jury's still out on Mr. Snowden. Might be a better hero out there.

Me and my best friend listening to the Beatles. And singing.

Back in the USSR... http://getradified.tumblr.com/post/39066811799/marx-with-a-lampshade-on-his-head


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Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Jul 13 - 04:13 PM

Well, so Eddie doesn't like the way the US government works... Says it messes with bis freedoms... So what does Eddie do???

Goes to Russia???

Seems there is a disconnect here...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Jul 13 - 03:06 PM

And this is how the cookie crumbles:

http://news.yahoo.com/snowden-affair-became-freak-show-153640852.html


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Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Jul 13 - 12:02 PM

I'm pitching a new movie to the Syfy channel--a huge, freak storm hits Snowden's laptops--LEAKNADO!!


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Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Jul 13 - 10:57 AM

:-) How funny. Jumped the track there. Wrong thread.

Btw, Edward, the guy who gave false info about that plane in order to embarrass the US did not have to buy his own drinks that night.

Na zdorovie! Cheers.


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Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Jul 13 - 03:00 AM

Justice for Trayvon


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Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
From: Suzy Sock Puppet
Date: 12 Jul 13 - 10:46 PM

Edward, I'm keeping my fingers crossed that Russia grants you asylum. Even if you could get to Venezuela, the CIA would get you there. Trust me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PF7zjPTmvAQ&sns=em


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Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
From: Songwronger
Date: 12 Jul 13 - 08:34 PM

Russian lawmakers say Snowden deserves Nobel Peace Prize

Some members of the State Duma, Russia's lower house of parliament, have voiced their support for Edward Snowden, ex-CIA employee wanted by the US for leaking state secrets, with United Russia representative Alexander Sidyakin saying that Snowden is a worthy candidate for the Nobel Peace Prize.

"I join the opinion that we by no means should expel him. I think Snowden is a great pacifist. This man has done no less to get the Nobel Peace Prize than US President Barack Obama," he said at a round table meeting in the Public Chamber on Monday.

A member of the presidential Council for Human Rights Kirill Kabanov has similar opinion. "His motives were not material; his differences were not differences with the ideology of the United States. He defended his own constitution, the defended democracy in the United States," Kabanov was quoted by Voice of Russia as saying.


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Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
From: Don Firth
Date: 12 Jul 13 - 04:33 PM

Snowden as an Ayn Rand hero?

Boy, that's a stretch!!

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Jul 13 - 03:01 PM

Another website that was supporting Snowden was comparing him to both John Galt in "Atlas Shrugged" and to the guy in "Fountainhead" who blows up a building that was supposed to have been his creation, his architecture, but the govt took over the project and began making changes and by the time it was completed, it was nothing like what he had designed and the guy was so appalled that he blew it up and was put on trial and all that.

I thought, geez, the author of that article thinks that the information Snowden is revealing is his own intellectual property!! I mean, that's the essence of the story!! There's a difference between someone who destroys the World Trade Center because it was his design and he was appalled by what it came to represent and someone who destroys it because he hates America and just wants to hurt it.

Which is Snowden? Well, he didn't create the surveillance program or any of its software or hardware, he did not write any of the policies or have anything to do with the legalities involved. So he cannot be the character-type in The Fountainhead. What about the 2nd type--the guy who blew it all up because he hated the country? That seems extremely probable to me--so much so that there is no possibility that it could be anything else. The reason for the change was nothing more than the election of Barack Obama.

http://maineinsights.com/perma/revealing-articlehave-we-all-been-fooled-by-edward-snowden


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Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 12 Jul 13 - 02:43 PM

Yep. I have forgotten a lot of my grade school reading.


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Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Jul 13 - 01:49 PM

'"The Man Without a Country" is a short story by American writer Edward Everett Hale, first published in The Atlantic in December 1863.[1] It is the story of American Army lieutenant Philip Nolan, who renounces his country during a trial for treason and is consequently sentenced to spend the rest of his days at sea without so much as a word of news about the United States. Though the story is set in the early 19th century, it is an allegory about the upheaval of the American Civil War and was meant to promote the Union cause.'

Could that be it, Q?


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Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 12 Jul 13 - 12:33 PM

Whatever happened to the rendition teams?

Is this miscreant going to be confined to the airport terminal for life?

I remember a story about a man in exile, aboard ship and denied landing at all ports, doomed to sail on forever. Perhaps someone can refresh my memory.


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Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Jul 13 - 11:10 AM

Notice how GUEST, true to my earlier statement, simply WILL NOT comment on the online sources that have nothing to do with PRISM or the NSA that already have and display some of your most private information on the internet available to ANYBODY who wants to look it up. Far more detailed info than the NSA is collecting. I recently did a search on my own name and city and a sales website--SALES (it's called "salespider")--had an entry that reads: "[My real name] is a person that lives at [my current address]." I didn't even have to click on it to read that, it was the opening line of this website on the browser page deliberately designed that way so that people searching for me (or you) can find us simply by scanning the browser page. No long involved searching necessary.

Now I ask you one last time and then I have no choice but to write you off as a paranoid lunatic--WHAT IS SNOWDEN GOING TO DO ABOUT THAT???? He's so heroic and all and refuses to live in a world where we are being recorded and tracked and all that bullshit then he MUST find this situation intolerable. So what is he going to do about it? And while we're on the subject, Snowden-worshipers who have protecting our privacy as your main concern in life, what are YOU going to do about it???


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Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Jul 13 - 10:09 PM

Sorry, Bobert, but the old Ginny slide rule scenario doesn't cut it just now.

1) You have no idea what Snowden has or hasn't released.
2) You have no idea what the source of the documents you are speaking about really are.
3) You have no idea whether or not a US government 'person' has ever lied under oath.

In fact, other than your jingoism of a while back, you know no more than the rest of us.


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Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Jul 13 - 09:47 PM

Do you follow the news, GUEST???

This ain't like hidden stuff... I mean, if you don't believe the testimony "under oath" by the intelligence people then who do you believe...

Maybe you'd like to give us your ideal way of stopping bad guys from fucking up innocent people???

No???

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Jul 13 - 09:42 PM

"The program stopped a couple dozen documented plots, GUEST..."

Uh huh. And who in the program told you this?


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Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
From: Songwronger
Date: 11 Jul 13 - 09:24 PM

http://xrepublic.tv/node/4263
An interview with Ralph Nader. About 25 minutes long, but jump to 21:55 and he talks about Snowden and other whistleblowers. They're informing the public about criminal activity, and the criminals are pursuing them.


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Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Jul 13 - 09:20 PM

The program stopped a couple dozen documented plots, GUEST...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Jul 13 - 09:13 PM

Uh huh. Like we didn't know that?


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Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Jul 13 - 08:21 PM

He has revealed how the intelligence community has linked home-grown wackos with foreign wackos...

That's a plus and not a negative...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Jul 13 - 08:16 PM

What has Snowden revealed? No bullshit, just tell me.


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Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
From: Don Firth
Date: 11 Jul 13 - 06:27 PM

In a radio interview I heard a couple of days ago with a representative from the National Security Agency, he said, "We are looking for communications to and from known or suspected terrorists and, yes, we are keeping a record of who is communicating with whom. But no one is listening in on your telephone conversations or reading your e-mail—UNLESS you are communication with a known or suspected terrorist. The reason we are collecting this data is that if you are looking for a needle in a haystack, first of all, you have to have a haystack."

A quote, often mistakenly attributed to Thomas Jefferson, but it was actually said by Benjamin Franklin:

"Those who surrender freedom for security will not have, nor do they deserve, either one."

This kind of information has already been collected and is continuing to be collected by advertising agencies who call you on the telephone just as you're sitting down to dinner and try to sell you insurance or get you to change your credit card to their company. And if you don't think you e-mail and your internet browsing history is being monitored, then why is it that if you look for a particular product or service on line, you are then deluged with pop-up ads for that same product or service?

I do not see how what the FSA is doing in any way infringes my freedom. It CAN, however, greatly increase my security from being the victim of a terrorist attack.

You don't have to be concerned over some government agent listening in when you phone the young woman across the street, the one who keeps forgetting to pull her blinds, and breathing heavy into the phone. But there's a fair chance when you go on-line, you'll start getting pop-up ads for meeting singles in your area.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Jul 13 - 05:50 PM

There's also the element of implicit trust in this situation.

If a secret US agency first denies that no gathering of metadata on US citizens is going on, then after a whistleblower produces evidence that such is not the case the agency says, "Oh but it's only telephone numbers and not content," who's to say that aforesaid agency isn't lying about that also? Perhaps another whistleblower, and then the fun begins anew.

It can't be proven one way or another until someone with enough cojones is willing to step forward and call bullshit on the lying. Until then, the NSA never has to be accountable to anyone over anything (oh sure, there are oversight committees, but they can probably be persuaded to ignore questionable practices, "in the interest of national security").

Journalists with an interest in protecting the confidentiality of their sources probably doubt that there's no intelligence gathering of content, and it would be safe to assume that more than than a few of them are concerned that their First Amendment right to "Freedom of the Press" is being violated (for a good discussion of journalism and national security, see "National Security and the Press: The Government's Ability to Prosecute Journalists for the Possession or Publication of National Security Information" by D.A. Silver, available as a downloadable pdf file from the University of Pennsylvania).

As that eloquent orator and former President of the United States George W. Bush once said: "Fool me once, shame on — shame on you. Fool me — you can't get fooled again."

Or more to the point, former President Ronald Reagan: "Trust, but verify."


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Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
From: GUEST,guest
Date: 11 Jul 13 - 05:45 PM

>>But that doesn't apply in the case of Snowden. He has revealed activities carried out by a government agancy which would appear to be in breach of the US Constitution<<

And what court declared it so? None. In fact, a court--FISA--declared it legal from the outset. And until such time that it is declared illegal, your argument is bullshit.

That is really the essence of this case. You cannot whistleblow on a legal operation. You can't say that you believe it is illegal therefore it ok to blow the whistle on it. Every traitor that has ever existed has used that rationale. When the operation is declared legal through the proper channels and you are sworn the uphold that very system, to go back on your word is a grievous betrayal. Once you give your word, you MUST keep it or you are untrustworthy and therefore inherently and decidedly unheroic.

Those who defend Snowden by saying he has revealed nothing particularly vital to national security are contradicting themselves because he then had no reason to reveal anything and therefore has no justification for what he did. Either the information is vital to national security or it is not. If it is, who is he to decide on his own that it is his to reveal? And the glorification of this creature is dangerously clouding the transparency of his true knowledge and motives.

"I don't want to live in a society that does these sort of things ... I do not want to live in a world where everything I do and say is recorded. That is not something I am willing to support or live under." This from a man who, through his own choice, is the most recorded individual of our times.

"With this capability, the vast majority of human communications are automatically ingested without targeting. If I wanted to see your emails or your wife's phone, all I have to do is use intercepts. I can get your emails, passwords, phone records, credit cards." You can do that right now, Mr. Snowden, with nothing more than a computer with online access. Nothing you say has thus far has justified your actions or even explained them. They seem calculated to muddle the heads of the idealistically stupid with heroic sounding rhetoric that plays on fears of a people who, through their own actions, have bloated a government they now feat is too big.

Snowden wants to think he is the savior of the world: "Our founders did not write that 'We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all US persons are created equal.'" Is he saying (with a straight face) that the US government should be looking out for every single person in every single country? Something that can't be done without tracking their every move. Or is he saying that no government should be tracking anything by anybody anywhere in the world no matter who is doing it or why? Neither of those things sound very wise to me.

Meanwhile the tracking of your every move and recording of your every call and email will continue as it always has even if Snowden toppled the evil Obama regime and destroyed the NSA forever. But we don't care if we are followed everywhere we go online and all our private records revealed by online sources that have nothing to do with the NSA or PRISM. We could care less. How do I know? Because all the ones who praise Snowden the loudest and longest don't DARE every bring it up. Why? It ruins their moment in the sun. It reveals all their Snowden worship to be as empty as it truly is. But if Snowden--the defender of world privacy--doesn't deal with the internet issue as well and soon, he's just a hypocrite and even worse, a complete fool. And what does that make you?


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Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Jul 13 - 01:30 PM

First of all, I wasn't shocked at what our intelligence people were/are doing... If I were in their jobs I might construct something similar since the programs were devised to link phone numbers between folks the intelligence people know are the bad guys and folks here in the US who are/were talking with these bad guys...

I don't hold that against them... I don't feel my freedom is/was threatened by that...

But let's say that I did feel my freedoms were being jeopardized by this program...

I would have made a copy of my evidence, trusted it to an attorney for safe-keeping and taken the original to my Congressman with a warning that if I ended up dead that the file would be released...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 11 Jul 13 - 12:50 PM

If he wanted to enter the World Championship underwater breathing contest, he could.

In his place, what would you have done Bobz.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jul 13 - 10:41 PM

Yeah. He could have written to his house representative or his senators or even the president, right?


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Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
From: Bobert
Date: 10 Jul 13 - 09:32 PM

There were other ways other than the egotistical manner that Snowden picked...

He had reasonable options... He picked the one that would make him a rock star to some... A traitor to others...

It was immature and not all that genius...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
From: GUEST,Lynx
Date: 10 Jul 13 - 09:12 PM

Original news source, Germany (Eng):

http://m.spiegel.de/international/world/a-910006.html


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Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 10 Jul 13 - 03:44 PM

You're welcome GUEST! Any chance you'd be willing to adopt a passing Mudcat pseudonym so we can tell which guest comments belong to which guest?

As an aside, this incident has me thinking democracy and liberty are utterly dead in the water in the States (some posters have been arguing the case for years of course), as it seems no-one barring the far right actually wants to champion such outdated notions anymore over there! I hope the future of the liberal left in the UK isn't so determinedly "roll over and feel free to sniff my arse" yet...


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Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jul 13 - 02:36 PM

Good links - good stuff, thank you.


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Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 10 Jul 13 - 04:55 AM

Here's one of the videos linked to in that Salon article.

Three NSA Veterans Support Whistleblowing: Snowdon Did The Right Thing


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Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 10 Jul 13 - 04:49 AM

I liked this piece in Salon (I also really like Salon) which highlights the emptiness of "news" commentators busy directing their attention and vitriol at Snowden's personality, rather than at the the governmental crimes that he exposed. Rather like some of the comments here.

"And so a man who's spent 44 years appearing on television for a living uses the minute allotted on the program he hosts for him to share his self-evidently important thoughts on world events to accuse someone else of narcissism. Though the key word isn't "narcissistic," of course, it's "young." This is Schieffer's argument: In his day people who opposed the government did so correctly...
It's apparent that Snowden is an alien to them, and they can understand him only in terms of idiotic newsweekly Generation Gap nonsense. He is a millennial, he is selfish and lazy and narcissistic. It's just privileged old men projecting their hatred and resentment of a younger generation onto a convenient representative. .. Schieffer thinks Snowden is a "narcissist" because, you know, the kids today, they're all narcissists ... We actually don't know shit about Edward Snowden's inner life.
If you want to watch the opposite of Schieffer's "destruction" of Snowden the narcissistic twerp, USA Today gathered three experienced intelligence professionals — all former NSA officials who also saw abuses and eventually went public with them — to see what they thought of Snowden. All three agreed that Snowden performed a public service. All agreed that he did the right thing.
they all did what Schieffer wanted Snowden to do: They made their complaints internally, according to what is supposed to be the proper procedures. And all were ignored, marginalized or punished for doing so. The proper procedures didn't work.
That's the news here, and that's what we're supposed to be debating: not whether this guy is a self-important asshole, but what he told us about how our government is acting and whether the safeguards in place supposedly to prevent abuse are functioning at all.

http://www.salon.com/2013/06/17/schieffer_on_snowden_this_kid_is_a_jerk_because_dr_king_and_911/


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Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Jul 13 - 09:37 PM

Here are two interesting links:

http://m.guardiannews.com/world/2013/jun/21/privacy-civil-liberties-obama-secret

http://m.guardiannews.com/law/2013/jul/09/fisa-courts-judge-nsa-surveillance

Co-opting.


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Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 09 Jul 13 - 03:40 PM

This interview by Glenn Greenwald, is worth watching. Snowdon makes a lot of sense.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jul/08/edward-snowden-surveillance-excess-interview?commentpage=1


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Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Jul 13 - 02:41 AM

All Snowden really did was offer tangible evidence of the surveillance we were all aware of on some level. He let us know that there are formal policies in place that have been kept secret from us (for our protection of course). I don't think he even has information that could or would harm national security. His objective, in my view, was strictly to inform on the government's spying. I'm pretty sure that all of his "top secret" info and further disclosures relate exclusively to that.

On the other hand, if he is an operative and this whole thing is a psy op, then the objective is obviously to gauge the public's reaction and then to further acclimate them to the idea that it's ok for the United States government to spy on its citizens. Public protest is losing its effectiveness. One reason is that the media downplays any cause not endorsed buy the elite. Another reason is police brutality. If the media ignores you anyway, there's no point in facing off with riot police.


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Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Jul 13 - 10:55 PM

Sometimes people who reveal government secrets can lay themselves open to the accusation that they have put the lives of spies employed by their government at risk.

But that doesn't apply in the case of Snowden. He has revealed activities carried out by a government agancy which would appear to be in breach of the US Constitution and of the laws of friendly countries.

And for that he faces Draconian punishment, if the US government can lay their hands on him, and hysterical attacks such as that Bobert just made.

I note that even in the US only a minority of people think what he did was wrong, with almost as large a minority thinking he was right, and about one in three undecided. Elsewhere it seems evident support for his actions is a lot higher.


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Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Jul 13 - 07:18 PM

The whole notion that Snowden was not too bright in downloading NSA documents and handing them over to the Guardian, and the idea that he fled to Hong Kong rather than stay and "face the music" misses the broader view.

It may have been a shrewd calculation on Snowden's part that he stole fairly inocuous NSA documents: 1) to lessen the charges that would inevitably be levied against him (really heavy stuff could've gotten him the charge of treason), and 2) to quickly shift the focus away from him and on to the broader discussion of the way the NSA operates, and is it something we want to address. He achieved both these objectives. After all, he exposed practices the NSA was engaged in that people already knew was happening. So that anything having to do with the "personal" side of his story or what he did, after a while, would likely generate a disinterested yawn.

And then the discussion would move on to the way the NSA operates. A secret court? How many "average" people knew about FISA before the Snowden story broke? A court that recently was described as a "parallel Supreme Court." A secret court that issues secret decrees for secret things the secret agency (remember, NSA stands for "No Such Agency" and "Never Say Anything") seeks to "investigate," secretly. And if some of those decrees might be considered "questionable," or the results of the actions taken by the NSA based on those decrees turn out to be less than "optimum?" No worries, it's all secret, no one can talk about it; no one of any importance - much less the American people (who are the most important element in this scenario) - can know because it's all classified. And besides, the outcomes, however positive or negative, can all be blanketed or explained away with the phrase "in the interest of national security." And that makes it all okay (and legal, i.e not subject to prosecution). And ultimately, it never happened (not officially). Being able to disavow that an event occurred because of security classification or national security interest gives the NSA power way beyond the scope of the law.

Snowden was probably influenced and appalled by PFC Bradley Manning's leak of the video that showed the targeting and killing of Iraqi civilians, two of which later turned out to be Reuters employees. Without that video being brought to the public eye, we may never have known this instance - probably not an isolated event - of what Julian Assange later coined, "collateral murder."   

Snowden probably calculated that after the sexy James Bond-like intrigue of his actions died down, the focus would turn to the NSA, which it has. It wasn't his ego, or a desire to be in the limelight that motivated him. Not a "hey look at me," but a "hey look at this!" It was a genuine concern about the actions of an agency created specifically to operate "under the radar" at all times that motivated him. If his ego had been involved, he could've turned a blind eye and kept his cushy $200,00 a year job to buy a Jaguar and flashy Armani suits to impress his girlfriend. Instead, he sacrificed a lucrative career and a country to live in to bring national attention to (and a discussion of) the way this spook-y agency operates. He is a patriot. The stuff he leaked to the Guardian wasn't anything. Wonder what he really knows?

As far as fleeing the country: after he decided to leak the NSA documents and given the "classified ops" nature of the agency he was contracted to, he would be in fear for his life. He could've been labeled an "enemy combatant," "domestic terrorist," or any number of convenient labels in order to do away with writ of habeas corpus to lock him away forever in solitary confinement without charges or a trial, or be the subject of a drone attack, or the victim of a mysterious "suicide" like journalist Danny Casolaro when he got just a little too close to the nature of the operations of clandestine agencies. Hong Kong was probably not his first choice, but could've simply been the first convenient international flight from the airport. In any event, his chances of living to fight another day were probably increased dramatically by leaving the USA.

For a high school dropout, he planned all this pretty well. Not to mention being able to teach himself the myriad intricacies of computer systems as well as developing a conscience along the way. He's a pretty smart dude.


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