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BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden

Songwronger 07 Jun 13 - 11:17 PM
Stilly River Sage 08 Jun 13 - 12:06 AM
Stilly River Sage 08 Jun 13 - 12:24 AM
Deckman 08 Jun 13 - 12:29 AM
Joe Offer 08 Jun 13 - 12:38 AM
Songwronger 08 Jun 13 - 12:56 AM
Rapparee 08 Jun 13 - 12:58 AM
Songwronger 08 Jun 13 - 01:04 AM
Don Firth 08 Jun 13 - 01:06 AM
Stilly River Sage 08 Jun 13 - 01:27 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 08 Jun 13 - 01:28 AM
Joe Offer 08 Jun 13 - 01:38 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 08 Jun 13 - 01:54 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 08 Jun 13 - 01:57 AM
VirginiaTam 08 Jun 13 - 05:19 AM
GUEST 08 Jun 13 - 07:44 AM
GUEST 08 Jun 13 - 09:37 AM
Rapparee 08 Jun 13 - 11:13 AM
GUEST,larehip 08 Jun 13 - 11:28 AM
Greg F. 08 Jun 13 - 11:31 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 08 Jun 13 - 11:51 AM
GUEST,larehip 08 Jun 13 - 12:12 PM
McGrath of Harlow 08 Jun 13 - 12:22 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 08 Jun 13 - 12:24 PM
GUEST,gillymor 08 Jun 13 - 12:40 PM
GUEST,larehip 08 Jun 13 - 01:04 PM
GUEST,Guest from Saniity 08 Jun 13 - 01:31 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 08 Jun 13 - 01:36 PM
GUEST,larehip 08 Jun 13 - 02:00 PM
GUEST,Lavengro 08 Jun 13 - 02:04 PM
GUEST 08 Jun 13 - 02:17 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 08 Jun 13 - 02:18 PM
McGrath of Harlow 08 Jun 13 - 03:16 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 08 Jun 13 - 03:38 PM
Stilly River Sage 08 Jun 13 - 06:48 PM
Bobert 08 Jun 13 - 07:37 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 08 Jun 13 - 08:05 PM
GUEST 08 Jun 13 - 08:09 PM
Steve Shaw 08 Jun 13 - 09:06 PM
GUEST,Mrr at home so where's my cookie? 08 Jun 13 - 09:24 PM
GUEST,.gargoyle 08 Jun 13 - 09:57 PM
GUEST 09 Jun 13 - 08:31 AM
Bobert 09 Jun 13 - 08:55 AM
Don Firth 09 Jun 13 - 04:17 PM
GUEST,Mr. Peepers 09 Jun 13 - 06:35 PM
number 6 09 Jun 13 - 06:44 PM
Songwronger 09 Jun 13 - 07:20 PM
McGrath of Harlow 09 Jun 13 - 07:58 PM
GUEST 09 Jun 13 - 10:46 PM
number 6 09 Jun 13 - 11:05 PM
Songwronger 10 Jun 13 - 01:27 AM
GUEST,guest 10 Jun 13 - 12:15 PM
McGrath of Harlow 10 Jun 13 - 12:47 PM
number 6 10 Jun 13 - 03:01 PM
number 6 10 Jun 13 - 03:02 PM
skarpi 10 Jun 13 - 03:20 PM
number 6 10 Jun 13 - 03:59 PM
Eric the Viking 10 Jun 13 - 06:09 PM
GUEST,guest 10 Jun 13 - 06:54 PM
Jeri 10 Jun 13 - 07:29 PM
Songwronger 10 Jun 13 - 07:31 PM
GUEST,guest 10 Jun 13 - 07:42 PM
McGrath of Harlow 10 Jun 13 - 08:06 PM
Songwronger 10 Jun 13 - 08:54 PM
Songwronger 11 Jun 13 - 12:08 AM
McGrath of Harlow 11 Jun 13 - 07:27 AM
Charmion 11 Jun 13 - 07:53 AM
number 6 11 Jun 13 - 08:17 AM
GUEST 11 Jun 13 - 09:40 AM
Greg F. 11 Jun 13 - 10:02 AM
GUEST 11 Jun 13 - 10:09 AM
GUEST 11 Jun 13 - 10:42 AM
number 6 11 Jun 13 - 10:55 AM
Greg F. 11 Jun 13 - 11:12 AM
GUEST 11 Jun 13 - 11:15 AM
GUEST,bankley 11 Jun 13 - 11:24 AM
GUEST 11 Jun 13 - 11:29 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 11 Jun 13 - 12:14 PM
Stilly River Sage 11 Jun 13 - 12:59 PM
Stilly River Sage 11 Jun 13 - 01:01 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 11 Jun 13 - 01:36 PM
GUEST,gillymor 11 Jun 13 - 01:46 PM
Richard Bridge 11 Jun 13 - 01:53 PM
GUEST,gillymor 11 Jun 13 - 02:04 PM
GUEST,guest 11 Jun 13 - 04:56 PM
Richard Bridge 11 Jun 13 - 05:16 PM
Stilly River Sage 11 Jun 13 - 07:04 PM
GUEST,guest 11 Jun 13 - 07:25 PM
Don Firth 11 Jun 13 - 08:49 PM
Bobert 11 Jun 13 - 08:55 PM
Don Firth 11 Jun 13 - 09:00 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 11 Jun 13 - 09:12 PM
Bobert 11 Jun 13 - 09:14 PM
Songwronger 11 Jun 13 - 09:30 PM
number 6 11 Jun 13 - 09:41 PM
Don Firth 11 Jun 13 - 09:43 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 11 Jun 13 - 10:08 PM
Bobert 11 Jun 13 - 10:21 PM
GUEST 11 Jun 13 - 10:23 PM
number 6 11 Jun 13 - 10:27 PM
number 6 11 Jun 13 - 10:29 PM
number 6 11 Jun 13 - 10:35 PM
number 6 11 Jun 13 - 10:53 PM
GUEST,guest 12 Jun 13 - 12:00 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 12 Jun 13 - 12:12 AM
Richard Bridge 12 Jun 13 - 12:45 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 12 Jun 13 - 09:31 AM
GUEST 12 Jun 13 - 10:42 AM
pdq 12 Jun 13 - 12:13 PM
Don Firth 12 Jun 13 - 01:09 PM
number 6 12 Jun 13 - 01:39 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 12 Jun 13 - 02:22 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 12 Jun 13 - 03:51 PM
GUEST,gillymor 12 Jun 13 - 05:22 PM
GUEST,gillymor 12 Jun 13 - 05:25 PM
VirginiaTam 12 Jun 13 - 05:51 PM
Don Firth 12 Jun 13 - 06:22 PM
Songwronger 12 Jun 13 - 07:18 PM
GUEST 12 Jun 13 - 07:42 PM
pdq 12 Jun 13 - 08:23 PM
GUEST 12 Jun 13 - 08:33 PM
Don Firth 12 Jun 13 - 08:36 PM
GUEST 12 Jun 13 - 08:43 PM
number 6 12 Jun 13 - 08:51 PM
pdq 12 Jun 13 - 08:51 PM
GUEST 12 Jun 13 - 09:00 PM
GUEST,gillymor 12 Jun 13 - 09:46 PM
Songwronger 12 Jun 13 - 09:48 PM
Janie 12 Jun 13 - 10:40 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 12 Jun 13 - 11:09 PM
Don Firth 13 Jun 13 - 02:00 AM
Don Firth 13 Jun 13 - 02:07 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 13 Jun 13 - 03:49 AM
GUEST 13 Jun 13 - 10:43 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 13 Jun 13 - 12:21 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 13 Jun 13 - 12:33 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 13 Jun 13 - 01:20 PM
GUEST 13 Jun 13 - 03:40 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 13 Jun 13 - 03:40 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 13 Jun 13 - 04:03 PM
Don Firth 13 Jun 13 - 04:53 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 13 Jun 13 - 05:15 PM
Songwronger 13 Jun 13 - 07:02 PM
Don Firth 13 Jun 13 - 08:28 PM
Bobert 13 Jun 13 - 08:35 PM
number 6 13 Jun 13 - 09:02 PM
Bobert 13 Jun 13 - 09:04 PM
GUEST,guest 13 Jun 13 - 09:12 PM
GUEST 13 Jun 13 - 09:14 PM
Songwronger 13 Jun 13 - 09:17 PM
GUEST 13 Jun 13 - 09:23 PM
GUEST 13 Jun 13 - 09:28 PM
Songwronger 13 Jun 13 - 09:36 PM
GUEST 13 Jun 13 - 09:54 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 13 Jun 13 - 10:44 PM
number 6 13 Jun 13 - 10:50 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 14 Jun 13 - 12:14 AM
GUEST 14 Jun 13 - 01:04 PM
GUEST 14 Jun 13 - 03:12 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 14 Jun 13 - 04:28 PM
GUEST 14 Jun 13 - 04:34 PM
Don Firth 14 Jun 13 - 05:20 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 14 Jun 13 - 07:21 PM
Don Firth 15 Jun 13 - 01:30 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 15 Jun 13 - 01:59 AM
Don Firth 15 Jun 13 - 02:43 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 15 Jun 13 - 07:59 PM
GUEST 15 Jun 13 - 08:07 PM
dick greenhaus 15 Jun 13 - 09:05 PM
Suzy Sock Puppet 15 Jun 13 - 09:48 PM
Don Firth 15 Jun 13 - 10:31 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 15 Jun 13 - 10:34 PM
Don Firth 15 Jun 13 - 10:51 PM
Suzy Sock Puppet 16 Jun 13 - 12:32 AM
Stilly River Sage 16 Jun 13 - 12:51 AM
Suzy Sock Puppet 16 Jun 13 - 06:53 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 16 Jun 13 - 06:56 AM
Suzy Sock Puppet 16 Jun 13 - 06:57 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 16 Jun 13 - 09:20 AM
Bobert 16 Jun 13 - 09:23 AM
Greg F. 16 Jun 13 - 10:13 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 16 Jun 13 - 02:38 PM
Don Firth 16 Jun 13 - 03:01 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 17 Jun 13 - 12:31 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 17 Jun 13 - 01:12 PM
Suzy Sock Puppet 17 Jun 13 - 01:15 PM
beardedbruce 17 Jun 13 - 02:45 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 17 Jun 13 - 02:47 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 17 Jun 13 - 03:22 PM
Bobert 17 Jun 13 - 04:17 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 17 Jun 13 - 07:53 PM
Bobert 17 Jun 13 - 07:58 PM
Songwronger 17 Jun 13 - 09:52 PM
Don Firth 17 Jun 13 - 10:23 PM
Songwronger 17 Jun 13 - 10:53 PM
Songwronger 17 Jun 13 - 10:54 PM
Don Firth 17 Jun 13 - 11:18 PM
Don Firth 17 Jun 13 - 11:23 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 17 Jun 13 - 11:23 PM
Songwronger 18 Jun 13 - 12:27 AM
Stilly River Sage 18 Jun 13 - 01:11 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 18 Jun 13 - 03:45 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 18 Jun 13 - 04:17 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 18 Jun 13 - 04:27 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 18 Jun 13 - 04:36 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 18 Jun 13 - 01:12 PM
Don Firth 18 Jun 13 - 02:50 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 18 Jun 13 - 02:55 PM
Bobert 18 Jun 13 - 03:16 PM
Don Firth 18 Jun 13 - 03:56 PM
GUEST,Henry Krinkle aka Niggardly Bastard 19 Jun 13 - 01:55 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 19 Jun 13 - 07:05 AM
GUEST,SJL 19 Jun 13 - 08:05 AM
Q (Frank Staplin) 19 Jun 13 - 11:58 AM
Don Firth 19 Jun 13 - 03:03 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 19 Jun 13 - 03:11 PM
Don Firth 19 Jun 13 - 03:46 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 19 Jun 13 - 05:53 PM
Don Firth 19 Jun 13 - 06:11 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 19 Jun 13 - 07:40 PM
Songwronger 19 Jun 13 - 07:47 PM
Suzy Sock Puppet 19 Jun 13 - 07:57 PM
Bobert 19 Jun 13 - 08:27 PM
number 6 19 Jun 13 - 08:42 PM
Bobert 19 Jun 13 - 09:01 PM
Songwronger 19 Jun 13 - 09:03 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 20 Jun 13 - 01:06 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 20 Jun 13 - 01:09 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 20 Jun 13 - 11:36 AM
Greg F. 20 Jun 13 - 11:42 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 20 Jun 13 - 12:02 PM
Greg F. 20 Jun 13 - 12:33 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 20 Jun 13 - 12:53 PM
Don Firth 20 Jun 13 - 12:54 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 20 Jun 13 - 06:16 PM
GUEST 20 Jun 13 - 09:44 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 21 Jun 13 - 12:40 AM
GUEST 21 Jun 13 - 08:15 AM
GUEST,SJL 21 Jun 13 - 09:49 AM
Bobert 21 Jun 13 - 10:14 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 21 Jun 13 - 11:23 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 21 Jun 13 - 11:39 AM
GUEST 21 Jun 13 - 12:20 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 21 Jun 13 - 01:16 PM
GUEST 21 Jun 13 - 01:23 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 21 Jun 13 - 01:48 PM
number 6 21 Jun 13 - 04:52 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 22 Jun 13 - 12:07 AM
GUEST,Henry Krinkle aka Niggardly Bastard 22 Jun 13 - 01:41 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 22 Jun 13 - 05:01 AM
GUEST,Henry Krinkle aka Niggardly Bastard 22 Jun 13 - 05:01 AM
Q (Frank Staplin) 22 Jun 13 - 12:42 PM
Bobert 22 Jun 13 - 03:47 PM
GUEST 22 Jun 13 - 11:42 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 23 Jun 13 - 12:11 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 23 Jun 13 - 08:44 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 23 Jun 13 - 11:13 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 23 Jun 13 - 05:16 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 23 Jun 13 - 05:36 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 23 Jun 13 - 06:08 PM
GUEST,Henry Krinkle aka Niggardly Bastard 23 Jun 13 - 06:51 PM
Songwronger 23 Jun 13 - 08:36 PM
GUEST 23 Jun 13 - 08:47 PM
Songwronger 23 Jun 13 - 08:49 PM
Songwronger 23 Jun 13 - 10:12 PM
Songwronger 24 Jun 13 - 12:01 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 24 Jun 13 - 12:25 AM
GUEST 24 Jun 13 - 10:09 AM
GUEST 24 Jun 13 - 01:09 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 24 Jun 13 - 01:22 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 24 Jun 13 - 01:58 PM
Bobert 24 Jun 13 - 02:38 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 24 Jun 13 - 04:11 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 24 Jun 13 - 04:18 PM
Don Firth 24 Jun 13 - 06:00 PM
Jeri 24 Jun 13 - 06:48 PM
Bobert 24 Jun 13 - 07:42 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 24 Jun 13 - 08:04 PM
Bobert 24 Jun 13 - 08:17 PM
GUEST,Henry Krinkle aka Niggardly Bastard 24 Jun 13 - 08:49 PM
Bobert 24 Jun 13 - 08:53 PM
Songwronger 24 Jun 13 - 09:12 PM
Don Firth 24 Jun 13 - 09:45 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 24 Jun 13 - 10:11 PM
Songwronger 24 Jun 13 - 10:16 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 24 Jun 13 - 10:16 PM
Songwronger 24 Jun 13 - 10:23 PM
Don Firth 25 Jun 13 - 12:34 AM
akenaton 25 Jun 13 - 04:08 AM
GUEST,Henry Krinkle aka Niggardly Bastard 25 Jun 13 - 05:40 AM
GUEST 25 Jun 13 - 06:45 AM
GUEST,gillymor 25 Jun 13 - 09:56 AM
Q (Frank Staplin) 25 Jun 13 - 01:31 PM
Jack the Sailor 25 Jun 13 - 01:36 PM
Don Firth 25 Jun 13 - 02:10 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 25 Jun 13 - 02:11 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 25 Jun 13 - 02:15 PM
Don Firth 25 Jun 13 - 02:37 PM
GUEST,gillymor 25 Jun 13 - 02:41 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 25 Jun 13 - 02:57 PM
Don Firth 25 Jun 13 - 03:10 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 25 Jun 13 - 03:24 PM
Don Firth 25 Jun 13 - 03:35 PM
Don Firth 25 Jun 13 - 03:40 PM
akenaton 25 Jun 13 - 05:22 PM
Don Firth 25 Jun 13 - 05:34 PM
number 6 25 Jun 13 - 10:40 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 25 Jun 13 - 11:34 PM
GUEST 26 Jun 13 - 03:59 AM
GUEST 26 Jun 13 - 11:40 PM
skarpi 27 Jun 13 - 07:33 PM
Songwronger 27 Jun 13 - 10:48 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 28 Jun 13 - 12:03 AM
Don Firth 28 Jun 13 - 03:41 PM
Songwronger 28 Jun 13 - 06:30 PM
Don Firth 28 Jun 13 - 06:48 PM
skarpi 28 Jun 13 - 07:20 PM
Don Firth 28 Jun 13 - 07:47 PM
Bobert 28 Jun 13 - 08:00 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 28 Jun 13 - 08:23 PM
Bobert 28 Jun 13 - 08:27 PM
GUEST 28 Jun 13 - 08:27 PM
Songwronger 28 Jun 13 - 09:14 PM
Don Firth 29 Jun 13 - 12:01 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 29 Jun 13 - 12:08 AM
Don Firth 29 Jun 13 - 01:17 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 29 Jun 13 - 03:45 AM
GUEST,Yeah fine, I'm crazy. 29 Jun 13 - 03:54 AM
skarpi 29 Jun 13 - 02:13 PM
Don Firth 29 Jun 13 - 02:34 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 29 Jun 13 - 03:09 PM
Suzy Sock Puppet 29 Jun 13 - 07:45 PM
Songwronger 30 Jun 13 - 05:07 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 30 Jun 13 - 05:28 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 30 Jun 13 - 05:56 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 30 Jun 13 - 06:02 PM
Don Firth 30 Jun 13 - 06:19 PM
skarpi 01 Jul 13 - 01:04 PM
Don Firth 01 Jul 13 - 01:43 PM
beardedbruce 01 Jul 13 - 02:03 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 01 Jul 13 - 02:04 PM
Songwronger 01 Jul 13 - 07:54 PM
Bill D 01 Jul 13 - 08:12 PM
Don Firth 01 Jul 13 - 08:36 PM
McGrath of Harlow 01 Jul 13 - 08:58 PM
Songwronger 01 Jul 13 - 09:02 PM
Don Firth 01 Jul 13 - 10:00 PM
Bobert 01 Jul 13 - 10:07 PM
Songwronger 01 Jul 13 - 10:34 PM
Don Firth 01 Jul 13 - 11:05 PM
Don Firth 02 Jul 13 - 01:21 AM
Don Firth 02 Jul 13 - 01:56 AM
skarpi 02 Jul 13 - 03:15 AM
GUEST,SJL 02 Jul 13 - 07:21 AM
GUEST,SJL 02 Jul 13 - 08:27 AM
GUEST 02 Jul 13 - 08:59 AM
GUEST,SJL 02 Jul 13 - 09:24 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 02 Jul 13 - 11:54 AM
Suzy Sock Puppet 02 Jul 13 - 05:47 PM
GUEST 02 Jul 13 - 11:56 PM
GUEST 03 Jul 13 - 12:00 AM
GUEST 03 Jul 13 - 05:55 AM
GUEST,Tunesmith 03 Jul 13 - 03:45 PM
GUEST,Musket sans whistle 03 Jul 13 - 03:58 PM
Mrrzy 03 Jul 13 - 04:25 PM
GUEST 03 Jul 13 - 04:44 PM
GUEST,SJL 03 Jul 13 - 09:27 PM
Bobert 03 Jul 13 - 09:40 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 03 Jul 13 - 10:16 PM
number 6 03 Jul 13 - 10:28 PM
Songwronger 03 Jul 13 - 11:44 PM
GUEST 04 Jul 13 - 07:24 AM
number 6 04 Jul 13 - 07:50 AM
GUEST 04 Jul 13 - 08:14 AM
number 6 04 Jul 13 - 08:16 AM
GUEST 04 Jul 13 - 09:02 AM
GUEST 04 Jul 13 - 10:00 AM
GUEST,SJL 04 Jul 13 - 05:28 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 04 Jul 13 - 05:50 PM
number 6 05 Jul 13 - 10:06 PM
Songwronger 05 Jul 13 - 10:41 PM
Songwronger 05 Jul 13 - 10:44 PM
Songwronger 05 Jul 13 - 10:50 PM
GUEST 06 Jul 13 - 02:24 AM
GUEST 06 Jul 13 - 02:28 AM
GUEST 06 Jul 13 - 03:08 AM
number 6 06 Jul 13 - 08:07 AM
GUEST,SJL 06 Jul 13 - 01:12 PM
GUEST,SJL 06 Jul 13 - 01:44 PM
skarpi 06 Jul 13 - 02:07 PM
Don Firth 06 Jul 13 - 03:28 PM
Bobert 06 Jul 13 - 03:48 PM
Greg F. 06 Jul 13 - 04:09 PM
McGrath of Harlow 06 Jul 13 - 08:41 PM
GUEST 06 Jul 13 - 08:44 PM
McGrath of Harlow 06 Jul 13 - 09:20 PM
Mrrzy 06 Jul 13 - 09:56 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 06 Jul 13 - 09:59 PM
Songwronger 07 Jul 13 - 10:08 PM
Bobert 07 Jul 13 - 10:26 PM
Songwronger 07 Jul 13 - 11:38 PM
GUEST 08 Jul 13 - 07:18 PM
McGrath of Harlow 08 Jul 13 - 10:55 PM
GUEST 09 Jul 13 - 02:41 AM
GUEST,CS 09 Jul 13 - 03:40 PM
GUEST 09 Jul 13 - 09:37 PM
GUEST,CS 10 Jul 13 - 04:49 AM
GUEST,CS 10 Jul 13 - 04:55 AM
GUEST 10 Jul 13 - 02:36 PM
GUEST,CS 10 Jul 13 - 03:44 PM
GUEST,Lynx 10 Jul 13 - 09:12 PM
Bobert 10 Jul 13 - 09:32 PM
GUEST 10 Jul 13 - 10:41 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 11 Jul 13 - 12:50 PM
Bobert 11 Jul 13 - 01:30 PM
GUEST,guest 11 Jul 13 - 05:45 PM
GUEST 11 Jul 13 - 05:50 PM
Don Firth 11 Jul 13 - 06:27 PM
GUEST 11 Jul 13 - 08:16 PM
Bobert 11 Jul 13 - 08:21 PM
GUEST 11 Jul 13 - 09:13 PM
Bobert 11 Jul 13 - 09:20 PM
Songwronger 11 Jul 13 - 09:24 PM
GUEST 11 Jul 13 - 09:42 PM
Bobert 11 Jul 13 - 09:47 PM
GUEST 11 Jul 13 - 10:09 PM
GUEST 12 Jul 13 - 11:10 AM
Q (Frank Staplin) 12 Jul 13 - 12:33 PM
GUEST 12 Jul 13 - 01:49 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 12 Jul 13 - 02:43 PM
GUEST 12 Jul 13 - 03:01 PM
Don Firth 12 Jul 13 - 04:33 PM
Songwronger 12 Jul 13 - 08:34 PM
Suzy Sock Puppet 12 Jul 13 - 10:46 PM
GUEST 13 Jul 13 - 03:00 AM
GUEST 13 Jul 13 - 10:57 AM
GUEST 13 Jul 13 - 12:02 PM
GUEST 13 Jul 13 - 03:06 PM
Bobert 13 Jul 13 - 04:13 PM
GUEST,SJL 13 Jul 13 - 08:25 PM
GUEST 13 Jul 13 - 08:30 PM
McGrath of Harlow 14 Jul 13 - 05:01 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 14 Jul 13 - 07:12 PM
McGrath of Harlow 14 Jul 13 - 08:04 PM
GUEST 14 Jul 13 - 09:13 PM
Songwronger 14 Jul 13 - 10:10 PM
GUEST 14 Jul 13 - 11:34 PM
GUEST,SJL 15 Jul 13 - 02:42 AM
skarpi 15 Jul 13 - 04:53 AM
McGrath of Harlow 15 Jul 13 - 07:20 AM
number 6 15 Jul 13 - 09:34 AM
GUEST,SJL 15 Jul 13 - 10:41 AM
GUEST 15 Jul 13 - 12:13 PM
McGrath of Harlow 15 Jul 13 - 02:06 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 15 Jul 13 - 02:17 PM
McGrath of Harlow 15 Jul 13 - 02:40 PM
Greg F. 15 Jul 13 - 02:43 PM
number 6 16 Jul 13 - 09:54 AM
GUEST 16 Jul 13 - 04:16 PM
McGrath of Harlow 16 Jul 13 - 05:37 PM
number 6 16 Jul 13 - 11:40 PM
GUEST,SJL 17 Jul 13 - 10:15 AM
GUEST 17 Jul 13 - 12:37 PM
GUEST,SJL 18 Jul 13 - 04:42 AM
GUEST,Don Wise 18 Jul 13 - 10:24 AM
GUEST,CS 18 Jul 13 - 12:03 PM
Songwronger 18 Jul 13 - 08:09 PM
GUEST,CS 19 Jul 13 - 09:42 AM
bobad 20 Jul 13 - 06:49 AM
Greg F. 20 Jul 13 - 11:00 AM
GUEST,CS 20 Jul 13 - 02:11 PM
Songwronger 22 Jul 13 - 06:23 PM
GUEST,CS 23 Jul 13 - 03:26 AM
GUEST,SJL 23 Jul 13 - 02:42 PM
GUEST,SJL 23 Jul 13 - 10:32 PM
Songwronger 24 Jul 13 - 06:51 PM
GUEST,SJL 25 Jul 13 - 06:40 AM
GUEST,SJL 25 Jul 13 - 09:48 AM
Q (Frank Staplin) 25 Jul 13 - 12:48 PM
GUEST,SJL 25 Jul 13 - 06:47 PM
GUEST 26 Jul 13 - 02:13 PM
GUEST 26 Jul 13 - 07:07 PM
GUEST 26 Jul 13 - 11:37 PM
Songwronger 28 Jul 13 - 11:48 PM
GUEST,CS 29 Jul 13 - 07:42 AM
Songwronger 11 Aug 13 - 05:46 PM
GUEST 11 Aug 13 - 10:25 PM
Songwronger 11 Aug 13 - 11:06 PM
Songwronger 12 Aug 13 - 09:32 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 13 Aug 13 - 08:35 AM
Songwronger 15 Aug 13 - 07:32 PM
Songwronger 20 Aug 13 - 07:58 PM
Suzy Sock Puppet 20 Aug 13 - 08:30 PM
Bobert 20 Aug 13 - 08:44 PM
GUEST,9 21 Aug 13 - 01:00 PM
GUEST,Guessed 21 Aug 13 - 05:24 PM
Greg F. 21 Aug 13 - 06:05 PM
GUEST 21 Aug 13 - 11:34 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 22 Aug 13 - 09:25 AM
Bobert 22 Aug 13 - 10:09 AM
Bobert 22 Aug 13 - 10:12 AM
GUEST 22 Aug 13 - 10:38 AM
Greg F. 22 Aug 13 - 10:39 AM
Suzy Sock Puppet 22 Aug 13 - 10:54 AM
Bobert 22 Aug 13 - 11:15 AM
GUEST 22 Aug 13 - 02:31 PM
Bobert 22 Aug 13 - 03:01 PM
GUEST 22 Aug 13 - 04:21 PM
GUEST 22 Aug 13 - 11:16 PM
GUEST,Guessed 23 Aug 13 - 10:40 AM
Greg F. 23 Aug 13 - 10:45 AM
GUEST 23 Aug 13 - 12:24 PM
Greg F. 23 Aug 13 - 03:27 PM
GUEST 23 Aug 13 - 10:31 PM
Songwronger 24 Aug 13 - 07:53 AM
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Subject: BS: The NSA Scandal
From: Songwronger
Date: 07 Jun 13 - 11:17 PM

"That means no more illegal wiretapping of American citizens. No more national security letters to spy on citizens who are not suspected of a crime. No more tracking citizens who do nothing but protest a misguided war. No more ignoring the law when it is inconvenient." -- Obama, running for president in 2007

And now, a new scandal, the NSA scandal:

...At issue is the disclosure of a highly classified court order—issued by a judge on the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court—that forced a Verizon subsidiary to hand over on a daily basis to the NSA call logs for all of its customers....

This is a sweeping surveillance program—the sort of activity that two Democrats on the Senate intelligence committee, Mark Udall of Colorado and Ron Wyden of Oregon, have been complaining about for years. The pair have warned that the government was engaged in a surveillance program under the Patriot Act that went beyond what most people would assume permissible given a reasonable interpretation of that law. They have not been able to reveal details of the classified activity in public, but the two senators have noted that Americans would be alarmed if they knew what was going on....

Another administration official was explicit on this point, noting that Congress was regularly briefed on this and that if this is a scandal, the Hill is complicit. The White House's pushback goal is obvious: get reporters to ask Congress, what did you know and when did you know it?

Perhaps the White House can spread the responsibility. But the program was initiated and run by the executive branch. It will justifiably draw much criticism, which may resonate more widely than the in-the-media outrage over the Justice Department snooping on the Associated Press and a Fox News reporter. "This is a truly stunning revelation," Elizabeth Goitein, codirector of the Liberty and National Security Program at the Brennan Center for Justice, told the Washington Post. "This suggests that the government has been compiling a comprehensive record of Americans' associations and possibly even their whereabouts." After Benghazi and the IRS, the White House may finally have to confront a real controversy over a program it truly owns.

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2013/06/nsa-spying-obama-scandal


"NOBODY IS LISTENING TO YOUR TELEPHONE CALLS"

Barack Obama promised the American people "nobody is listening to your telephone calls" as he faced deepening questions over whether he had allowed the US surveillance state to run out of control.

Speaking on the eve of a major US-China summit in California, Mr Obama was forced to push back against accusations that his administration had expanded on Bush-era surveillance systems that he had once campaigned against.

Under intense fire from both the liberal Left and libertarian Right for trampling on Constitutional freedoms, the president defended secret programmes which collect data on hundreds of millions of US phone calls and harvest huge amounts of online information about foreigners.

Mr Obama, who as a candidate accused George W Bush of making a "false choice" between liberty and security, found himself accused of carrying on a "fourth Bush term" after embracing the same surveillance apparatus designed by his predecessor.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/barackobama/10106919/Obama-on-NSA-surveillance-scandal-nobody-is-listening-to-your-pho


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Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 08 Jun 13 - 12:06 AM

No more illegal wiretapping. Songwronger, once again I knew you would be trying to sling Bush-era shit and hope it stuck exclusively on Obama.

From Wikipedia

In mid-August 2007, a three-judge panel of the United States Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit heard arguments in two lawsuits challenging the surveillance program. The appeals were the first to reach the court after dozens of civil suits against the government and telecommunications companies over NSA surveillance were consolidated last year before the chief judge of the United States District Court for the Northern District of California, Vaughn R. Walker. One of the cases is a class-action lawsuit against AT&T, focusing on allegations that the company provided the NSA with its customers' phone and Internet communications for a vast data-mining operation. Plaintiffs in the second case are the al-Haramain Foundation Islamic charity and two of its lawyers.


The news this week is old stuff. Americans have such short memories. The metadata mining has been legal in several administrations, it continues to be legal, yet if someone doing all they can to help the GOP stall legislation thinks they can generate a scandal to slow down Obama's progress in his second term, they'll try it with any old thing anti-Obama Americans can become indignant about. Bengazi, Susan Rice, IRS. . .

The subhead of your Mother Jones link says explicitly If this disclosure of an extensive domestic surveillance program leads to a real controversy, the White House says Congress should share the blame.

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 08 Jun 13 - 12:24 AM

Metadata (metacontent) are defined as the data providing information about one or more aspects of the data, such as:
  • Means of creation of the data
  • Purpose of the data
  • Time and date of creation
  • Creator or author of the data
  • Location on a computer network where the data were created
  • Standards used


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Deckman
    Date: 08 Jun 13 - 12:29 AM

    This is just another republican attempt to strike back at the core issue: Obama won and Romney lost! bob(deckman)nelson


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Joe Offer
    Date: 08 Jun 13 - 12:38 AM

    I hereby give the NSA permission to use my phone records. Why should I care?


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Songwronger
    Date: 08 Jun 13 - 12:56 AM

    1994, CALEA.

    Since '94, all digital communication has been mined. Next year, the new NSA facility in Utah will become the home of all that mined data. The federal government will have all financial, internet, cable TV, telephone, texts, emails and so on connected to each of us in one place. Any cop on the side of the road will be able to access that data.

    SRS accused me of "stalking" her once, the hysterical biddy, and now she's defending the system described above? I believe she is not just an apologist for Obama, but she is insane. She makes me reconsider my anti-pharma position.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Rapparee
    Date: 08 Jun 13 - 12:58 AM

    For God's sake, Joe, don't do that! They'll figure out where the guns are hidden if it takes the rest of the century.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Songwronger
    Date: 08 Jun 13 - 01:04 AM

    Medical records, school records, ALL PHONE CALLS, eavesdropping conducted through iPads, cell phones and the like, intersection scans of your car's license plates, face scans of you as you walked the streets, GPS information.

    The Utah facility will have yottabytes of storage space. It will be able to store a nearly infinite amount of information. It will have a spotty record of what you did in the paper age and a TOTAL record of what you've done in the digital age.

    And Obama reassures us by saying no one is listening to our telephone calls.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Don Firth
    Date: 08 Jun 13 - 01:06 AM

    Songwronger, I know Stilly River Sage personally and have known her for many, many years. A VERY aware, sane, and level-headed person.

    You're the one here who's 'round the bend. Obviously, from the number of threads you've started and the amount of time you spend on it, it's abundantly clear to everyone here (with the possible exception of GoofuS, who's just as batty as you are) that you have a downright pathological hatred for Barack Obama.

    The people ELECTED him!

    SUCK IT UP!!

    Don Firth


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Stilly River Sage
    Date: 08 Jun 13 - 01:27 AM

    Songwronger forgets so much, when it's convenient.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
    Date: 08 Jun 13 - 01:28 AM

    What a DUMB post!
    They also elected Bush...TWICE...Nixon...Carter...Clinton...and they ALL sucked...(speaking of sucking it up...)

    Now, that being said, our phones and computers have been monitored for a LONG time....and so what?...Yeah, it would be cool to have privacy, but then, who needs to doing doing 'mischief'?
    If they monitor Mudcat, well, then they must be laughing up a storm, when they read how naive some of the partisan politicking going on in here.....AND....they'd also know, that I've been correct on a whole lot of shit that has, and is going down....but like a war/correspondent/photographer, this composer tries to catch the angst, and put it into music...which I've done pretty good(if i do say).
    Other than that, they must be laughing again, when they see some of the old farts taking themselves so fucking seriously!...and then, this is even funnier....they think others should do the same....Right Don???

    Oh,....suck it up!

    GfS


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Joe Offer
    Date: 08 Jun 13 - 01:38 AM

    I used to do intelligence work, and I did investigative work for a career. To get the job done, you have to go through a thousand pieces of useless information to find one tidbit that has any value. Professional analysts have a very disinterested attitude toward those thousands of useless pieces of information, so the people tied to the useless information, are protected by the tedium and disinterest of the analysts.

    Intelligence offers protection in a way that is far less damaging and less violent than just about any other kind of defense. But to conduct intelligence work, the intelligence workers have to be trusted.

    And, for the most part, they are trustworthy - and there are pretty good controls to keep them that way.

    -Joe-


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
    Date: 08 Jun 13 - 01:54 AM

    Oh No!!..Joe is an intelligence guy!..He's 'monitoring' us....and look at how many ridiculous posts he has to read....even just to find one that makes sense!!
    jow, explain to them 'Echelon'...and how it works....they'd only argue with me!

    GfS


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
    Date: 08 Jun 13 - 01:57 AM

    ooops..(typo)..JOE, explain to them 'Echelon'...and how it works....they'd only argue with me!...and then tell them how long it's been around!

    GfS


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: VirginiaTam
    Date: 08 Jun 13 - 05:19 AM

    So tempted to pepper all texts, calls, emails and posts with mine field of questionable words and phrases, just to make life interesting for the poor people who have to trawl through it all.

    Hot words and terms squeezed into completely innocent contexts.

    I plan to DISCHARGE a confetti BOMB at a big EVENT in LONDON next week.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: GUEST
    Date: 08 Jun 13 - 07:44 AM

    http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/06/07/prism-u-s-surveillance-programs-reveal-barack-obamas-broken-promise/


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: GUEST
    Date: 08 Jun 13 - 09:37 AM

    http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/06/07/prism-u-s-surveillance-programs-reveal-barack-obamas-broken-promise/


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Rapparee
    Date: 08 Jun 13 - 11:13 AM

    Ya know that you folks are taking this way too seriously.

    Joe's right -- I did "looking up" work for years and you can sort through a lot of manure before you find a diamond.

    If you knew the first thing about it you'd realize that...never mind. Your minds are made up, the doors closed, and welded shut.

    Just remember, when you blame Obama, that this was authorized by CONGRESS under the BUSH administration along with such other violations of civil liberties as the Patriot Act, TSA, and DHS.

    Fer gawd's sakes, people, this has been going on since the 1960s!!!

    If you don't want "them" listening in, do what Bin Laden did -- use a courier.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: GUEST,larehip
    Date: 08 Jun 13 - 11:28 AM

    This angers me because people should have known 7 years ago that this was going on after Bush bypassed the FISA court (which IS illegal) and had ALL the telecommunications giants turn over their data (without a court order) and people sat there on their stupid asses and said nothing.

    NOW all the sudden, it's a big deal!! Well, guess what--it's legal what Obama did and Verizon was under a court order to turn over their data and the FISA court is not being bypassed. So why get upset over this now but it was ok when Bush was breaking the law??

    Where the fuck have people been for 7 fucking years?!?!?


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Greg F.
    Date: 08 Jun 13 - 11:31 AM

    They've been sucking on the TeaPublican teat- and are now trying to shift the blame for pure political advantage.

    And the boobocracy are lapping it up.

    God help America- oh, ye nation of morons.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
    Date: 08 Jun 13 - 11:51 AM

    I agree with Joe Offer, Rapparee, and Niggardly Bastard.....even though Rapparee did leave out NDAA!!

    GfS

    P.S. ..and as usual, Greg just had to bitch, without saying anything. I gues he is so 'ticked off' that he threw his Martini across the jacuzzi!


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: GUEST,larehip
    Date: 08 Jun 13 - 12:12 PM

    I think it's the way the repubs use the media. When bush was breaking the law, his opponents were asking, "How can this be legal? This is clearly unconstitutional," and the public barely took any notice. When Obama is doing the same thing only legally, the repubs are going to the media and shrieking, "HE'S INVADING YOUR PRIVACY AND DESTROYING YOUR FREEDOMS!!!! STOP HIM!!! STOP HIM!!! BEFORE IT'S TOO LATE!!!!!!!! OH GOD SOMEBODY PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLLLLLLLLEEEEEEAAAAASSSSEEEE STOP HIM (sob sob sob sob sob)!!!!!!!" And this gets the public's attention and holds it. The repubs are good at getting hysterical in front of the cameras to get attention. Calm, rational discourse doesn't work on the public--it's boring and they don't understand it anyway.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: McGrath of Harlow
    Date: 08 Jun 13 - 12:22 PM

    It really does seem a bit much for the US government to be in effect saying "of course we will not interfer with the freedoms and rights of US citizens. We will just do that to bloody foreigners."   And the same mindset applies when it comes to oher stuff, like locking people up without trial for decades on end, or torturing them.

    Human rights are human rights, and they apply to everyone, regadless of citizenship.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
    Date: 08 Jun 13 - 12:24 PM

    I guess I've been 'sane' for a LONG time...here's a post from Obama's first campaign, which says (and I have more, specific ones from that time):

    Subject: RE: BS: Observations of the Dem. Nat. Convention
    From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
    Date: 29 Aug 08 - 01:18 AM

    "Just been reading the posts....some really shallow stuff there! No mention of his accomplishments or his policies that most people think about..or that effect all of us....Any word on dissolving our borders, without even getting the public's feedback..??Same with our currency, and form of money..not a word...immigration....shhhh....getting our rights back, from all that was done in the Bush years(make that Bush, Clinton, Bush,jr,...not to mention the president Bush heaped upon himself the most sweeping, additions of power to the presidency, in our history...is Obama going to get rid of them...or ..(?). Waffling on the middle east??....and just HOW, or what's his plan, specifically to turn the economy around, more than just saying, 'We'll do it'?? And by the way, 'Change'...?..what to?..another form of government, without the will of the people???..the government enacting more 'safeguards' (read: intrusion), into our lives?..Why not?...they tell us we need them to do everything else for us?
    And Amos, my dear pal Amos, you should re-read your posts! You sound like a gullible naive, starry eyed adolescent with a jar of Vaseline, as big as a basketball!
    Maybe the reason for the stage, being just like the Greek Gods, and just like Bush's...ever stop to think, its run by the same outfit, with a great big propaganda media, to keep us blind, and/or distracted from the real throne of power??? ..of which is not elected??
    Anyway..its obvious....all hype, no substance!"

    And NOW, (finally), the disillusioned Democrats are saying that Bush and Obama are just doing the same thing, started by Bush!

    Should have been listening(reading) instead of inundating us with stupid 'talking points'!

    GfS


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: GUEST,gillymor
    Date: 08 Jun 13 - 12:40 PM

    The good news is that judging from the indecipherable rant above, Goofus, you're not any crazier than you were 4 1/2 years ago.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: GUEST,larehip
    Date: 08 Jun 13 - 01:04 PM

    Actually, I said back when Bush was still in office that because the people have allowed him to set up all this totalitarian political machinery in the White House, it will still be there when he leaves and every president after him is going to use it. So it does not surprise me a bit that Obama is using it. If I were him, I would too. That's exactly the problem: once it's there, it's there to stay. The time to get mad about it was when it was in process. It does no good to get mad about it now. Way way way too late.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: GUEST,Guest from Saniity
    Date: 08 Jun 13 - 01:31 PM

    Well said, larehip. It is a subject I covered numerous times, as far back as the first convention, where Barrack Hussein was nominated. What happens is we are 'issued' 'talking points' to steer the national dialogue, AWAY from the real issues!!..It's done by both the 'right' and left'..and probably with the co-operation of each other, who, of course, have been bought and paid for, by the people, behind the scenes. The real shame is, a lot of folks on here, came out of the 60's peace movement, got co-opted by the Democratic Party, and because of it, have lost their 'Mojo' for thinking creatively for themselves!!! The Democratic Party was fucked up BEFORE the peace movement, co-opted the movement, then proceeded back to their original fucked up state, and took all those who were stupid enough, to fall in line with them!..Think of them as the illegal aliens, who the Democratic Party is trying to 'incorporate' now. Same deal. That beiaid, the Republican party is just as fucked up...the only people who DON'T think ity's fucked up, are those who are still fucking stupid enough to be in them, spouting their stupid, fucking 'talking points' and NOT reaching out, to talk about the REAL issues, as they did before they got burnt out in the 60's! Lazy!!
    Anyway, nice to know someone else sees it, and isn't falling into their psy-ops program!
    BTW, Gillymor and Greg are still in pre-school..Don Firth wants to be their teacher's assistant, and Bobert is still trying to get a note from home, to see if it's OK, not to subscribe to his Mom's political party!
    Few of them have anything of substance to say, in which somebody actually learns something....they are still at the name calling stage!

    GfS


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
    Date: 08 Jun 13 - 01:36 PM

    Had to fix some typos...(for those who don't read typonese)
    Moderators can get rid of the other one...

    Well said, larehip. It is a subject I covered numerous times, as far back as the first convention, where Barrack Hussein was nominated. What happens is we are 'issued' 'talking points' to steer the national dialogue, AWAY from the real issues!!..It's done by both the 'right' and left'..and probably with the co-operation of each other, who, of course, have been bought and paid for, by the people, behind the scenes. The real shame is, a lot of folks on here, came out of the 60's peace movement, got co-opted by the Democratic Party, and because of it, have lost their 'Mojo' for thinking creatively for themselves!!! The Democratic Party was fucked up BEFORE the peace movement, co-opted the movement, then proceeded back to their original fucked up state, and took all those who were stupid enough, to fall in line with them!..Think of them as the illegal aliens, who the Democratic Party is trying to 'incorporate' now. Same deal. That being said, the Republican party is just as fucked up...the only people who DON'T think it's fucked up, are those who are still fucking stupid enough to be in them, spouting their stupid, fucking 'talking points' and NOT reaching out, to talk about the REAL issues, as they did before they got burnt out in the 60's! Lazy!!
    Anyway, nice to know someone else sees it, and isn't falling into their psy-ops program!
    BTW, Gillymor and Greg are still in pre-school..Don Firth wants to be their teacher's assistant, and Bobert is still trying to get a note from home, to see if it's OK, not to subscribe to his Mom's political party!
    Few of them have anything of substance to say, in which somebody actually learns something....they are still at the name calling stage!

    GfS


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: GUEST,larehip
    Date: 08 Jun 13 - 02:00 PM

    I don't care about the political parties. It's the people who are fucked up. They need to quit letting politicians jerk them around with hotbutton topics and jingoism. They're are like sheep. Stop with the herd mentality and start thinking. Otherwise, they deserve to be deceived and victimized by those they elect.

    And just to be clear: I support Obama more than I support the repubs who don't appear to me to care about ANYTHING but their own political fortunes. I've had it up to here with them.

    There is NO NSA scandal! Everything Obama is doing is by the book, he is within the law--like it or not. The scandal occurred 7 years ago and the biggest mouths flapping about Obama now were totally silent then. They need to be silent now because I don't want to hear their shit. They have forfeited their right to speak.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: GUEST,Lavengro
    Date: 08 Jun 13 - 02:04 PM

    It seems to me that the US and UK governments are constantly seeking ways to circumvent their own laws with third party help. I would list some examples but I don't want anyone frothing at the mouth. And larehip is right, when it's done it's done. Trouble is that a lot of times we don't know what is being done/has been done in our name until the press breaks the story. Is that how it should work? Why is there such a powerful lobby protecting some freedoms and apparent lack of interest in others?


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: GUEST
    Date: 08 Jun 13 - 02:17 PM

    From another thread:


    Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Senator - Abolish the IRS
    From: GUEST
    Date: 08 Jun 13 - 09:48 AM

    It seems the IRS was induced/told/instructed to check out tea party people. Overkill I say. I'm sure the government's PRISM project and phone surveillance operations would have found what it wanted.

    Hell, they were such good ideas that the UK government got involved and neglected to tell its citizens. It wouldn't surprise me to find that Canada has gleaned its share of info. Secret laws? What the hell kind of government passes secret laws, passes laws in secrecy?


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
    Date: 08 Jun 13 - 02:18 PM

    Well, larehip, I Almost agree with your post, except I don't support Obama anymore than his Republican counterparts. Lavengro, seems to have his/her finger on the pulse....even though, if you have noticed, during the 'debates', nobody who isn't part of the 'bought off crowd' don't seem to get much hot air time! On the 'so-called left' Dennis Kucinich, was not called on much...or the 'so-called right', RON Paul seemed to be minimized as well..most of the others are just lackey fill ins..

    GfS


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: McGrath of Harlow
    Date: 08 Jun 13 - 03:16 PM

    The thing is, there's some courageous person out there who leaked this information, and when their identity is revealed, they are going to be crucified.

    I only hope they make it in time to some country with the guts to defend them.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
    Date: 08 Jun 13 - 03:38 PM

    McGrath of Harlow: "I only hope they make it in time to some country with the guts to defend them."

    Or maybe to a multinational corporation or bank, who can blackmail any who try to come after him.....jeez, maybe they'd even cut them off from the payroll of bribes...or expose their OTHER corrupt sources!...or even threaten them with taking them off the insider trading program!!!

    GfS


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Stilly River Sage
    Date: 08 Jun 13 - 06:48 PM

    Wonderful reading.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Bobert
    Date: 08 Jun 13 - 07:37 PM

    Yup[, SRS...

    The Mudburg Klan can't help themselves... They are addicted and out of control...

    B~


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
    Date: 08 Jun 13 - 08:05 PM

    I found it disturbing and entertaining...those two sides bickering, though their 'stupid talking points' (as mentioned earlier). What they should be discovering together, is that, who is funding both sides, writing the script, and to what end???.....I bet ya' neither side is going to like it, and kick themselves in the ass for focusing on the bullshit dialogue, that's been fed to them, as a part of psychological warfare distraction!
    Far more informative, and dialed in!

    GfS


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: GUEST
    Date: 08 Jun 13 - 08:09 PM

    Nice to see people supporting the government in its fight to keep America safe--started by Bush and continued by Obama.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Steve Shaw
    Date: 08 Jun 13 - 09:06 PM

    I hereby give the NSA permission to use my phone records. Why should I care?

    Way back in the dark ages (early 80s to be precise), when I was an active member of CND in Essex, my phone was tapped. It was highly amusing to hear the sudden hanging-up "click" whenever I shouted down the phone "I know you stupid bastards are listening!" As we sold our CND paraphernalia on our Saturday morning stall in Loughton High Road, we could clearly see several blokes on a rooftop on the opposite side of the road filming us and taking photos. We made sure they went home with some quite entertaining footage. The sad fact is that this represented public money being wasted watching a bunch of people who couldn't, and wouldn't, harm a bloody flea.

    Do I care? I wouldn't care if some secret service lunatic filmed me wiping my bum, to be honest. What I do care about is that we're paying these eejits to waste our money.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: GUEST,Mrr at home so where's my cookie?
    Date: 08 Jun 13 - 09:24 PM

    Hey, I saw one of those magic coffee cups the other day, this one had the Bill of Rights on it and if you put a hot drink in it you could watch them (your rights) disappear... I thought it was pretty funny.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: GUEST,.gargoyle
    Date: 08 Jun 13 - 09:57 PM

    It is a good job - designed for people who are never bored (Assburger syndrom helps)

    It does not pay well....1,200 USD monthly base (unemployment pays twice that) .... and 31.23 USD for every positive.

    I purchased a home on the income from the "LafKats" postings.
    Max has shielded himself well...bankruptcy and moving, multiple times, can do that.
    Joe - gives a peculiar ... but steady stream ... under ten buck a month.
    Felt so sorry for Kendal/Kan .....returned every cent via pay-pal.

    Read the Bloomberg "The Porn Copyright Trolls" article by Claire Suddath current edition.

    Sincerely,
    Gargoyle


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: GUEST
    Date: 09 Jun 13 - 08:31 AM

    Government has 'secretly interpreted the Patriot Act'

    It was not until May 2011, as the Patriot Act again faced another reauthorization, that the NSA's secret programs began to receive cryptic attention from two Democratic senators, Ron Wyden of Oregon and Mark Udall of Colorado. Hobbled by the classified nature of the secret programs, the two senators offered up only guarded warnings.

    "When the American people find out how their government has secretly interpreted the Patriot Act, they will be stunned and they will be angry," Wyden said during a floor speech in May 2011. He added: "Many members of Congress have no idea how the law is being secretly interpreted by the executive branch, because that interpretation is classified."

    The above is from a news article. Read the snippet and weep.

    So, the fundamental difference between Bush and Obama is . . . what?


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Bobert
    Date: 09 Jun 13 - 08:55 AM

    Terrorists plot get's found out and stopped: Tea Party quiet...

    Terrorist plot doesn't get found out and goes forward: Tea Party goes berserk accusing Obama of everything shy of kidnapping the Lindbergh baby...

    Normal...

    B~


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Don Firth
    Date: 09 Jun 13 - 04:17 PM

    This morning I heard a fairly extensive interview on the radio with someone from the NSA.

    He made it clear to the interviewer and to the listeners that the idea was NOT to monitor who calls whom all the time and to eavesdrop on their conversations, but to build up a data base of who is calling whom, that can be searched when a suspicious situation arises having to do with national security, such as the likelihood of an impending terrorist attack. And that when they do so, they will be looking for specific information

    If a person frequently calls a known or suspected terrorist, THEN, with the proper court orders, those phone calls, e-mails or other means of communication will be closely monitored.

    Songwronger need not worry that President Obama will be tapping his telephone when he makes obscene phone calls to the young woman living across the street who sometimes forgets to draw her blinds. Nor does Guest Many Miles From Sanity have to worry that Obama will be listening in when he telephones his male lover (while trying to maintain the fiction for the rest of us that he's not actually gay).

    Don (Billy Goat Gruff) Firth


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: GUEST,Mr. Peepers
    Date: 09 Jun 13 - 06:35 PM

    "I purchased a home on the income from ----"

    The one with the pool at LosCoyetes & Wardlow, Greg?


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: number 6
    Date: 09 Jun 13 - 06:44 PM

    Whew .... I'm terrified of terrorists. I'm glad there is now a president that is taking proactive action to keep everyone safe.

    biLL


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Songwronger
    Date: 09 Jun 13 - 07:20 PM

    I was as hard on Bush as I am on Obama. Harder. I voted for Obama and gave him a grace period, but I knew Bush was a psychopath from the start.

    But back to the NSA. If this isn't some kind of double-agent PR stunt, then this man is a hero:

    Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind the NSA surveillance revelations

    Snowden will go down in history as one of America's most consequential whistleblowers, alongside Daniel Ellsberg and Bradley Manning. He is responsible for handing over material from one of the world's most secretive organisations – the NSA.

    In a note accompanying the first set of documents he provided, he wrote: "I understand that I will be made to suffer for my actions," but "I will be satisfied if the federation of secret law, unequal pardon and irresistible executive powers that rule the world that I love are revealed even for an instant."...

    He said it was during his CIA stint in Geneva that he thought for the first time about exposing government secrets. But, at the time, he chose not to for two reasons.

    First, he said: "Most of the secrets the CIA has are about people, not machines and systems, so I didn't feel comfortable with disclosures that I thought could endanger anyone". Secondly, the election of Barack Obama in 2008 gave him hope that there would be real reforms, rendering disclosures unnecessary.

    He left the CIA in 2009 in order to take his first job working for a private contractor that assigned him to a functioning NSA facility, stationed on a military base in Japan. It was then, he said, that he "watched as Obama advanced the very policies that I thought would be reined in", and as a result, "I got hardened."

    The primary lesson from this experience was that "you can't wait around for someone else to act. I had been looking for leaders, but I realised that leadership is about being the first to act."

    Over the next three years, he learned just how all-consuming the NSA's surveillance activities were, claiming "they are intent on making every conversation and every form of behaviour in the world known to them".

    He described how he once viewed the internet as "the most important invention in all of human history". As an adolescent, he spent days at a time "speaking to people with all sorts of views that I would never have encountered on my own".

    But he believed that the value of the internet, along with basic privacy, is being rapidly destroyed by ubiquitous surveillance. "I don't see myself as a hero," he said, "because what I'm doing is self-interested: I don't want to live in a world where there's no privacy and therefore no room for intellectual exploration and creativity."

    Once he reached the conclusion that the NSA's surveillance net would soon be irrevocable, he said it was just a matter of time before he chose to act. "What they're doing" poses "an existential threat to democracy", he said.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: McGrath of Harlow
    Date: 09 Jun 13 - 07:58 PM

    I'm not sure that Hong Kong is the best place for him to be safe from the US rendition heavies. Good luck to him anyway.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: GUEST
    Date: 09 Jun 13 - 10:46 PM

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KEg5JyAVxpY


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: number 6
    Date: 09 Jun 13 - 11:05 PM

    Oh by hook or by crook they'll capture Edward Snowden ... after all he is 'unpatriotic' ... funny isn't it ... doesn't matter who the current president is ... if someone speaks the truth they are public enemy number one.

    There certainly would be different attitudes here on the Madcat concerning all of this if it happened under Bush's watch.

    biLL


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Songwronger
    Date: 10 Jun 13 - 01:27 AM

    The Terrifying Future of the United States

    A 12-minute YouTube video. Does a really good job of summarizing how our society's been militarized since 9/11.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: GUEST,guest
    Date: 10 Jun 13 - 12:15 PM

    Speaking the truth is one thing, blowing the cover of a legal operation is another. I have no sympathy for Snowden. This guy is a high school dropout and I doubt he has enough smarts to know who his actions might have put at risk. He wasn't even smart enough to know where to run. Hong Kong? BAD choice.

    Then he starts talking about how he's fearful for his children and what will become of them in his absence. Oh, please! Didn't you think about that BEFORE you betrayed your country, dummy??

    What other info might he have given away and to whom in some stupid belief that he's saving the universe? This isn't about freedom. This is about him. He's a nobody who thinks he's a big hero now and can't pat himself on the back enough.

    But then he should NEVER have been given that job in the first place--a high school dropout working for the CIA on a sensitive inteeligence-gathering program. Really.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: McGrath of Harlow
    Date: 10 Jun 13 - 12:47 PM

    "There certainly would be different attitudes here on the Madcat concerning all of this if it happened under Bush's watch."

    I was just about to post saying there wasn't much evidence of that, when that last post turned up. I suspect that the guest who wrote it would also have defended Bush for doing the same stuff.

    I find it hard to envisage how this leak could possibly put anybody aside from Snowdon a risk, except possibly risk to their political life. And I very much doubt if some of the activities revealed are in fact legal, even in America, let alone the other countries whose citizens are potentially affected. If the law hasn't caught up with making them illegal it's high time it did, and it's a public service bringing them to light.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: number 6
    Date: 10 Jun 13 - 03:01 PM

    A very interesting interview from the Toronto Star with Ronald Deibert, director of the Citizen Lab and the Canada Centre for Global Security Studies ... you don't have to be a Canadian to appreciate what he has to say ...

    Ronald Deibert, director of the Citizen Lab and the Canada Centre for Global Security Studies

    biLL


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: number 6
    Date: 10 Jun 13 - 03:02 PM

    whooops .... my apologies ... here's the link

    U.S. online snooping: what Canadians need to know

    biLL


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: skarpi
    Date: 10 Jun 13 - 03:20 PM

    the NSA say that they are watching foreign nations and people ..
    so does that make me a Terrorist ??

    The Big Brother has been awake for a long time , but I have nothing
    to hide , but I am against those spying .

    the UK Government got me on a terrorist list ...and now the USA NSA is watching me ....I must be a hell of a TERRORIST ....

    and I thought I was just a normal viking ...huuu ...

    Is this the way USA is using to get people to trust them in the future
    I don´t think so ..

    all the best to you all - Skarpi


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: number 6
    Date: 10 Jun 13 - 03:59 PM

    Hmmm ... just another reason for the world to get pissed off with the U.S.

    from Der Spiegel ..... Data Surveillance with Implications for the World

    Gnu's post about how Americans know little about Canada comes to mind about all this ... let's keep the U.S. populace in the dark about other countries in the world and then the government can define all a other countries as a threat ... Canadians and Scandinavian are all communists, the mideast is full of people on a Jihad against all Americans, and the French, well they certainly are dangerous to begin with ... in fact the whole world is full of terrorsts all out to get America ... we got to keep a watch on everyone.

    OK ... you may not buy what I have posted ... but I ask how much is all this Big Brother surveillance costing the U.S. taxpayers ... in a country were you do not have adequate health care, and social assistance for the poor, for the indigenous people and the elderly is almost non-exhistent.

    biLL


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Eric the Viking
    Date: 10 Jun 13 - 06:09 PM

    You lot can complain but the bastards shot down my carrier pigeon with my plan for world domination that was being sent to the Bilderberg meeting.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: GUEST,guest
    Date: 10 Jun 13 - 06:54 PM

    Give me a break, people. If there was another 9-11 attack or a dirty bomb that killed hundreds and the govt wasn't watching anything, you'd all be screaming bloody murder about that.

    You're as bad as the gun nuts who think the govt is going to take all their guns away. You think you're so important that the govt is going to tune into you among millions and millions of people to hear your boring drivel shit conversations which, if they match your posts here, couldn't possibly be less interesting, uninformed or more ignorant. Just as with the gun nuts, do you honestly think the govt has the capability to listen into every single conversation going on 24/7? Do you really?

    They need a background wash of millions of phone calls so they can focus on emerging call patterns that might be of interest. If you were in the White House and you had the capability, you'd be doing it too and you know it.

    And those who defend Snowden are no different than the anti-abortion freaks. It doesn't matter to you what's legal, you're going to subvert those laws to make the country fit into YOUR benevolent tyranny. Actually, that's giving you too much credit. You don't have the guts to do that. You'll just sit back and cheer on the crazy nut who is doing what you can only fantasize about--just like the abortion nuts--one crazy goofball pulls the trigger or sets off the bomb and the rest of you cheer.

    And, if as one poster here said, Snowden is putting no one at risk by leaking the contents of this program to the world, then how dangerous could this program possibly be? Go crawl back into the woodwork you slithered out of. Some other deluded nutball will be along soon enough, I'm sure. You can cheer him on but the Snowden experience is just about at an end.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Jeri
    Date: 10 Jun 13 - 07:29 PM

    I honestly don't know how I feel about this.
    I worry that a not-nice person might notice that somebody's calling a phone sex line and ruin them. I worry (seriously) that the wrong person will get information that someone's doing something the public can be convinced is evil and tell everybody... except that's what's happened (even if it's the other side--'whistleblowers" vs career-ruiners... except that's what's happened.)

    There have always been secret things going on. This one apparently started in 2007. The reason things have security classifications is based on whether people knowing them would damage the US and the degree of damage. Somebody try to convince me this doesn't damage the US. It kind of makes you wonder what has been going on prior to this that we haven't learned about.

    The most frightening thing to me is we have an unprecedented number of people who have access to "top secret" information, and it's quite apparent to me they shouldn't have had that level of clearance. Our information security seems to be a bit shakier than our physical security.

    I have no doubt Snowden thought he was doing the right thing. I'd guess the people who developed "PRISM" thought they were doing the right thing. I don't have any clear idea who is right and who is wrong.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Songwronger
    Date: 10 Jun 13 - 07:31 PM

    GUEST, guest is a government shill. The intelligence agencies employ people like this to do damage control. First one I've seen on Mudcat, that I know of. I've seen his talking points and presentation on other sites today. I think it's amusing that their first thought was to condemn Snowden for some perceived lack of education. The govt is pissed off that it was outmaneuvered by a "high school dropout." lol.

    I listened to a few minutes of Limbaugh today. He was more inarticulate than I've ever heard him. He HAD to address the Snowden story, but how to do that? It's not a Dem/Rep issue (Snowden condemned both Bush and Obama), so Limbaugh stammered about Snowden "hating this country." But that didn't work because Snowden took the action he did to protect democracy.

    This is a major, major setback for the surveillance/industrial complex. Daniel Ellsberg calls it the most important leak in the history of the U.S.:

    Edward Snowden: saving us from the United Stasi of America

    In my estimation, there has not been in American history a more important leak than Edward Snowden's release of NSA material – and that definitely includes the Pentagon Papers 40 years ago. Snowden's whistleblowing gives us the possibility to roll back a key part of what has amounted to an "executive coup" against the US constitution.

    Since 9/11, there has been, at first secretly but increasingly openly, a revocation of the bill of rights for which this country fought over 200 years ago. In particular, the fourth and fifth amendments of the US constitution, which safeguard citizens from unwarranted intrusion by the government into their private lives, have been virtually suspended.

    The government claims it has a court warrant under Fisa – but that unconstitutionally sweeping warrant is from a secret court, shielded from effective oversight, almost totally deferential to executive requests. As Russell Tice, a former National Security Agency analyst, put it: "It is a kangaroo court with a rubber stamp."

    For the president then to say that there is judicial oversight is nonsense – as is the alleged oversight function of the intelligence committees in Congress. Not for the first time – as with issues of torture, kidnapping, detention, assassination by drones and death squads –they have shown themselves to be thoroughly co-opted by the agencies they supposedly monitor. They are also black holes for information that the public needs to know.

    The fact that congressional leaders were "briefed" on this and went along with it, without any open debate, hearings, staff analysis, or any real chance for effective dissent, only shows how broken the system of checks and balances is in this country.......


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: GUEST,guest
    Date: 10 Jun 13 - 07:42 PM

    Thanks for attacking me, songwronger, you've just put everybody in here who hates your guts into a very uncomfortable position. nyuk nyuk nyuk!


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: McGrath of Harlow
    Date: 10 Jun 13 - 08:06 PM

    Whether the activities of the NSA are legal is not too clear. It shouldn't be assumed that just because a government does something that makes it legal. Of course there are some political philosophies which would assert that very thing, but in doing so they undermine the very concept Guest appears to hold sacred, that the fact that something is legal means that it is automatically wrong to defy it.

    And it is in fact pretty well universally agreed that in certain circumstances it is right to oppose legal authority. The United States was founded on that basis.

    I'm a bit puzzled by the apparent proposition that if leaking information does not endanger people, the activities revealed cannot be dangerous in themselves. Apply that principle in a completely different context - if a whistleblower in a sausage factory revealed that his employers were using meat that had been condemned as unfit for human consumption, would the fact that no one was put at risk by the revelation (except in terms of their career prospects), would this really imply that the activities concerned were not dangerous? (Please note, I am not suggesting any analogy between the NSA and a sausage factory, the example is just about the proposition Guest appeared to be making that the absence of risk from a leak means that the activities revealed cannot be dangerous.)

    And please, could people hold onto the principle of addressing people here with whom they disagree courteously, and avoid slipping into rhetoric like "Go crawl back into the woodwork you slithered out of."


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Songwronger
    Date: 10 Jun 13 - 08:54 PM

    Spoken like a true disinformation agent, Guest. The Russians told you people that the two Chechen brothers in Boston were potential terrorists, yet you let them bomb the marathon anyway? The Russians warned you multiple times about that. So, if you couldn't "stop the terrorists" under those conditions, why do you need to data mine billions of communications?

    At any rate, the fourth amendment to the U.S. constitution says:

    "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

    So the Bush/Obama warrantless and fisa court crap is disallowed. And if there's any doubt about that (laws passed recently that contradict the fourth amendment), we already have a supreme court ruling on that. Marbury v Madison, 1803:

    "Thus, the particular phraseology of the Constitution of the United States confirms and strengthens the principle, supposed to be essential to all written Constitutions, that a law repugnant to the Constitution is void, and that courts, as well as other departments, are bound by that instrument."


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Songwronger
    Date: 11 Jun 13 - 12:08 AM

    It's looking more and more like the 8 major companies involved in this scandal (Apple, Google, Facebook and the others) knowingly colluded with the NSA to spy on you. Of course, they were probably intimidated. They knew that in 2001 the NSA contacted the CEO of Qwest, Joseph Nacchio, and said they wanted to wiretap every customer. He said no. Billions of dollars of government contracts with Qwest were cancelled and Nacchio is now in federal prison.

    The new data storage facility in Utah will have enough server space to store all digital data on all Americans. Some of the types of digital data we jotted down today:

    Financial records (banking history, deposits and withdrawals, mortgage info, county tax rolls)

    Earnings history, income tax history

    Credit card history (what foods you've charged, medications, ammo, porno and so on)

    Medical and hospital records (illnesses and injuries, abortions, sexually transmitted diseases, vaccinations or lack of vaccinations)

    Biometric information (thumb scans, iris scans, DNA sample, gait sample, voice sample)

    Educational records (no more sealed juvenile records, either, so we can "fight the terrorists")

    Online buying history

    Emails (from your primary address and those you thought were secret)

    Text messages

    Browsing history (political sites you've visited, radical sites you've clicked through to in your reading, porno)

    Phone calls

    Forum and bulletin board postings

    Your changing physical location, tracked by:
    GPS in your cars, cell phones and laptops
    Passport activity
    Closed Circuit TV facial recognition scans
    Gait recognition software scans
    License plate scans
    ATM withdrawals
    Key cards for access to work sites

    "Smart" technology monitoring when you open your refrigerator doors and the like

    Conversations recorded with systems like Onstar, in your car

    Cable TV boxes monitoring for live thumbs on the remote

    Drones surveilling movement in rural areas

    and so on.

    According to this article the NSA gathers 2.1 million gigabytes of data on us every hour. They have space now to store an endless amount of data, and it will just sit there until the government decides to come for The Jews or The Jihadists or The Tea Party.

    Check out Main Core. From Wikipedia:

    Main Core is the code name of a database maintained since the 1980s by the federal government of the United States. Main Core contains personal and financial data of millions of U.S. citizens believed to be threats to national security.[1] The data, which comes from the NSA, FBI, CIA, and other sources,[1] is collected and stored without warrants or court orders.[1] The database's name derives from the fact that it contains "copies of the 'main core' or essence of each item of intelligence information on Americans produced by the FBI and the other agencies of the U.S. intelligence community."[1]


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: McGrath of Harlow
    Date: 11 Jun 13 - 07:27 AM

    The idea is surfacing that a reason why Google and Anazon and so forth have been so easily able to avoid paying tax in the UK might have something to do with a payback for cooperating on these things.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Charmion
    Date: 11 Jun 13 - 07:53 AM

    The only guarantee of privacy is obscurity, as anyone who grew up in a small town can tell you.

    Clearly, many Americans believe (against all the evidence) that they -- as individuals -- are significant enough to stand out from their hundreds of millions of fellows to the disinterested eye of the scanning intelligence analyst, who works only with the output if a software bot incapable of thought.

    In all this furore, what catches this Canadian's attention is commentators' indignation. Whenever the Constitution is invoked, the indignation content of the debate has risen beyond the level at which rational discussion is possible.

    That said, I must admit that the day is long past when an American federal official would think -- let alone say -- that gentlemen don't read other gentlemen's letters.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: number 6
    Date: 11 Jun 13 - 08:17 AM

    Very good Charmion .... Hanlon's razor also comes to mind about this terror of terrorist paranoia resulting in the Big Brother approach in massive scanning of information .. "You have attributed conditions to villainy that simply result from stupidity" ... from Robert Heinlein's short story Logic of Empire.

    biLL


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: GUEST
    Date: 11 Jun 13 - 09:40 AM

    "There certainly would be different attitudes here on the Madcat concerning all of this if it happened under Bush's watch."

    Ain't that the truth!


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Greg F.
    Date: 11 Jun 13 - 10:02 AM

    Ah, but it DID happen under Bush's watch - there's this thing called the P.A.T.R.I.O.T. Act, which is the elephant in the room.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: GUEST
    Date: 11 Jun 13 - 10:09 AM

    And never one to turn his back on a good thing, Obama carried on where Bush left off. Yippee! The elephant in the room was mentioned in the following post:


    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: GUEST
    Date: 08 Jun 13 - 08:09 PM

    Nice to see people supporting the government in its fight to keep America safe--started by Bush and continued by Obama.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: GUEST
    Date: 11 Jun 13 - 10:42 AM

    Has it struck anyone as to the enormity and complexity of the problem? Recall it was green-eye cameras which have become ubiquitous. Then Google ads which read gmail messages to scan for key words to make yer ad experience more intuitive, whatever the hell that means. Have people become so complacent that they think NSA/CIA/FBI/DHS/ETC have not been accessing that lovely little feature? The fucking elephant in the room is why are people not outraged by this shit. They should be, but we'll have the same apologists saying it's ok when we're being taken from trains to detention centers. LOOK at what the USA has become in basically less than forty years. Your enemies in the world have never needed to unleash mass destruction on the American people, and they haven't. You did it to yourselves.

    Greg, please read the following article:

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2013/06/07/f-rfa-macdonald-nsa-eavesdropping.html

    The reader comments are interesting in that they come from average guys and gals or various political persuasions.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: number 6
    Date: 11 Jun 13 - 10:55 AM

    Why would anyone remember the PATRIOT Act .... nobody read it.

    Some people here in the Madcat seem to forget it ... but they were concerned and they spoke quite differently back then .. well, of course they would it was under Bush's watch.

    it's interesting to back into the archives here in the Madcat .. many had different attitudes about this back then. It's intriguing to see what many of the Madcatters had to say.

    BS: Patriot Act unconstitutional?

    BS: USA PATRIOT Act (Part 2)

    BS: Cities Revolt against US Patriot Act

    bill ;)







    biLL


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Greg F.
    Date: 11 Jun 13 - 11:12 AM

    FYI, Guest Whatever, I make it a point to ignore anonymous guests who can't even be bothered to pick a consistent name as experience shows thay are inevitably shit-stirrers & likely one of the regular shit-stirrers trying to operate incognito. Have a nice shit-stirring day.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: GUEST
    Date: 11 Jun 13 - 11:15 AM

    That is very disheartening to read Greg. You'll have an email in less than five minutes.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: GUEST,bankley
    Date: 11 Jun 13 - 11:24 AM

    I support the actions taken by Edward Snowden AND Bradley Manning.

    put that in my dossier.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: GUEST
    Date: 11 Jun 13 - 11:29 AM

    You ain't got a dossier. You got a file!


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
    Date: 11 Jun 13 - 12:14 PM

    Well, time to weigh in......First of all, the 'so-called' liberals LOVE to point out that the Patriot Act came to be under Bush, but completely IGNORE that it was written by Biden!...in the MID-NINETIES!...and then they simply REFUSE to grasp that all this was brought about by BOTH parties.

    The 'so-called right' like to banter that it is UN-Constitutional' but ignore that so was the war in Iraq!!...and air support in Libya...and drones in Afghanistan....and Pakistan....But at least they want to call attention to Benghazi.....which the 'so-called' liberals wish to sweep under the carpet....Jeez, Susan Rice, gets up in front of the world at the U.N.,lies her fucking ass off, as does Obama, for a couple of weeks afterwards, and then she gets 'promoted' to assistant to national defense!!...Now, either she is incompetent to know the truth, OR acting under orders to lie her fucking ass off, without the President knowing a thing about it???????!!??....and the other FACT is, this stuff has been going on for DECADES!....and like a bunch of naive blathering, drooling idiots, one side or the other, tries to make hay..or defend ANY of these actions...BECAUSE THE POLITICAL PARTY LINES OF 'TALKING POINTS' ARE SO FULL OF SHIT, that only MORONS take up promoting either side, to 'crusade' on the behalf of either side, and make complete fools of themselves, while IGNORING the REALITY of what is going on!!!
    Then the 'pundits' or either side take up the question of 'legality'....legal????...well has it occurred to anyone, that here we DON'T have a JUSTICE system...we have a LEGAL system, instead?
    The 'so-called' liberals are choking on their pablum trying to make excuses for AG Eric Holder, after lying his ass off, too repeatedly...which for the time being will completely shut off the 'Justice' Department(?) from going after anybody...unless they are 'insulting' the administration's policies, of bullshitting the public...go figure!
    ....and if this seems to 'not make sense', so do a lot of you!...ESPECIALLY partisan morons!!!
    This is NOT a 'left/right' issue...this is just another example of CORRUPTION at the highest levels to dissolve our form of government, and replace it with a global/economic system by people who can't believe that we could have already had one.....but THEY just wouldn't be at the top of the heap!


    GfS


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Stilly River Sage
    Date: 11 Jun 13 - 12:59 PM

    David Brooks "The Solitary Leaker" in the New York Times on June 10, 2013.

    A fragment of it:

    If you live a life unshaped by the mediating institutions of civil society, perhaps it makes sense to see the world a certain way: Life is not embedded in a series of gently gradated authoritative structures: family, neighborhood, religious group, state, nation and world. Instead, it's just the solitary naked individual and the gigantic and menacing state.

    This lens makes you more likely to share the distinct strands of libertarianism that are blossoming in this fragmenting age: the deep suspicion of authority, the strong belief that hierarchies and organizations are suspect, the fervent devotion to transparency, the assumption that individual preference should be supreme. You're more likely to donate to the Ron Paul for president campaign, as Snowden did.

    It's logical, given this background and mind-set, that Snowden would sacrifice his career to expose data mining procedures of the National Security Agency. Even if he has not been able to point to any specific abuses, he was bound to be horrified by the confidentiality endemic to military and intelligence activities. And, of course, he's right that the procedures he's unveiled could lend themselves to abuse in the future.

    But Big Brother is not the only danger facing the country. Another is the rising tide of distrust, the corrosive spread of cynicism, the fraying of the social fabric and the rise of people who are so individualistic in their outlook that they have no real understanding of how to knit others together and look after the common good.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Stilly River Sage
    Date: 11 Jun 13 - 01:01 PM

    "He betrayed the Constitution. The founders did not create the United States so that some solitary 29-year-old could make unilateral decisions about what should be exposed. Snowden self-indulgently short-circuited the democratic structures of accountability, putting his own preferences above everything else."


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
    Date: 11 Jun 13 - 01:36 PM

    I tend to agree with you, SRS...but your post can extend to the philosophic/ideological 'bent' on any number of administrations, posing under the guise of being 'left' or 'right'...and not just solely to Snowden....for all we know, he could be a ruse, himself!

    GfS


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: GUEST,gillymor
    Date: 11 Jun 13 - 01:46 PM

    Aother paragraph worth repeating from the Brooks' article linked by SRS:

    "But Big Brother is not the only danger facing the country. Another is the rising tide of distrust, the corrosive spread of cynicism, the fraying of the social fabric and the rise of people who are so individualistic in their outlook that they have no real understanding of how to knit others together and look after the common good."




    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Richard Bridge
    Date: 11 Jun 13 - 01:53 PM

    IMHO Snowden is a courageous whistleblower. If there is no oversight of what governments scrutinise then those properly opposed to them are as much at risk as true terrorists.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: GUEST,gillymor
    Date: 11 Jun 13 - 02:04 PM

    The oversight is provided by Congress, Richard, not some unelected 29 year old who may just be grasping for his 15 minutes and in this country it's not illegal to be opposed to the government.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: GUEST,guest
    Date: 11 Jun 13 - 04:56 PM

    The FISA court oversees the program and allows it to proceed, the same court that Bush bypassed during which time Americans were all by totally silent.

    Has it occurred to anybody this whole thing is a intelligence ruse? A high school dropout working as a guard for the CIA and somehow ends up with an intelligence-gathering job at $200k a year. Then he throws it all away to reveal a "secret" program that anyone who has been paying the slightest bit of attention knows has been going on for 7 years now. A program that is completely legal.    And his "pole dancer" girlfriend whose writings on this subject read like Elizabeth Barrett-Browning on acid and meth. It's a bit much, one must admit.

    Maybe it's all too take our minds off the fact that he already gave our privacy away the day we decide to go online. I was visiting another site where you type in a person's name and the state where they reside and up comes their police record, city of residence, spouses, siblings, parents, in-laws. They even list other cities where a person may have resided for a short time. Another website lists your house and property and how much you paid for it and how long you've had it and whether or not you're in the market to sell it. Am I worried about the govt getting this info? No, they can get that info anytime they damn well please. But I do worry about crooks, cons and weirdos getting it. And I hope you don't get apps on your phone that require them knowing where you are so they can beam them to you because anybody can tune in and know exactly where you are at that moment.

    It's not that the government has access to my info, it's that ANYBODY has access to it who wants it and I can't do a damned thing about it. And neither can you.

    So while you're wrapping yourselves in tin foil to protect yourself from the evil government top secret eavesdropping rays they beam at you 24/7, you better watch out who is sneaking in the backdoor.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Richard Bridge
    Date: 11 Jun 13 - 05:16 PM

    Specify that site, Guest, please?


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Stilly River Sage
    Date: 11 Jun 13 - 07:04 PM

    I agree with gillymore. I don't always (even usually!) agree with David Brooks, though he is on the mild side of conservative, all things said and done. Snowden was "exposing" aspects of a program that is meant to be proactive, or at least provide quick results if another such attack as 9/11 happens. Hopefully to prevent it. I suspect part of the confusion is that too many people don't understand just what "metadata" is. It isn't the content of the call, it is the stuff the phone company prints on every bill that goes out in the mail, to whom, and for how long. And it has long been understood that most of this information is not private and it isn't reasonable to expect it to be private. There is oversight of the program, and considering that the GOP and the Democrats have acknowledge the program and attest to briefings, and that a court oversees it, means it isn't so covert as is hinted at.

    The ACLU has decided to sue. Sometimes the ACLU gets these things terribly wrong. Like when they won the case about the law regarding who and how a person is admitted to a mental hospital - their suit allowed the Regan administration to dismantle major mental health institutions and dump the occupants, in some cases literally on the street. I'm a supporter of the ACLU, but this one is a mistake, it seems they don't understand what metadata is either.

    SRS


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: GUEST,guest
    Date: 11 Jun 13 - 07:25 PM

    Specify the site? Holy cow! You think there's only one? I'll go you one better: Type "criminal record check" into your browser and TAKE YOUR PICK!!!

    You mean to tell me that you people are bitching about NSA snooping and you have NEVER bothered to look at the staggering number of websites that have your information and it's free to anyone who cares to search for it??? My god! What a bright bunch we have with us today!

    The website I looked at was advertised--ADVERTISED--on my Yahoo! homepage! It was disguised as a news article but when I clicked, it was just a site for checking people's background info. I decided to try it. I know someone who has two DUIs and I wondered if that info was public so I typed her name and state in the box and bam! There it was complete with her ex-husband's name, her ex-father-in-law's name, her two children's names, her city of residence and it even knew that she had lived in two cities in Florida even though she was only there for about a year. In fact, her ex told me that she was in Florida but didn't say where and I didn't ask. But now I realize you don't have to ask. Just do a search. Now I didn't mean to snoop on this lady but she doesn't use a computer so I just wanted to see if her DUI's were public knowledge even if she doesn't go online and hell yes they are.

    Anyone can find out just about anything they want about you. These sites are used by prospective employers, for example. These sites advertise themselves online as sites for people to check out the backgrounds of new boyfriends or girlfriends--just in case. Maybe not a bad thing there. But can we doubt that stalkers, pedophiles and identity thieves practically live at these sites?

    Oh, and have a Facebook account? Got it set for private, no one can see you info but your designated FB friends? Oh my goodness NO! Anyone can look at anything you post on Facebook. Again employers do it ALL the time. Every time you read about somebody being busted on FB playing Frisbee on the beach when they are collecting money for a supposed back injury and that kind of thing, it's because the insurance company or employer went of FB and got that info, which is easy. Privacy, my ass.

    Then there's the software that merchants use to follow you EVERYWHERE you go online. Think no one knows about that super-kinky porno site that you visit everyday that you think you have carefully guarded from the prying eyes of the world. Haha!! Someone knows about it. Every merchant on the internet knows about it. And you think stalkers and private investigators don't make use of that software to follow people like you online? Well, you just go right on thinking that.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Don Firth
    Date: 11 Jun 13 - 08:49 PM

    GUEST,guest is right about this.

    And I have known it for a long time. For example, some weeks ago I went to Amazon because I was in the market for a new digital wristwatch. My old one has pooped out on me. I bought a very nice, reasonably inexpensive "atomic" watch (it sets itself every day by a time signal for Fort Collins, Colorado). Even now, I am still getting pop-up ads for digital watches.

    A fellow I knew some years ago had a little problem. He was a pedophile. No one knew. But he got busted and served time. He has since been busted again. I found him, just by putting in his name and last known city of residence. I found his whole record, including a very unflattering mug shot!

    No, folks. It's there! For ANYONE to look up.

    Even the subjects of Mudcat posts. I have spent a fair amount of time on threads here arguing the matter of gay marriage. I'm heterosexual and happily married (to a woman!), but Barbara and I have a couple of gay friends who've been living together for years and wanted to get married. When Washington State legalized same sex marriage in the last state election, they went right out and tied the knot (and somehow the world did not end!). But one of the results of my having posted on the subject is that, from time to time, I get a pop-up ad telling me where and how I can meet single males of the same-sex persuasion.

    So I'm bugged and pestered a helluva lot more by people who want to sell me goods and services than I am by the NSA!!

    I've mentioned this on another thread (on drones and how they are danger to our freedoms), but we have a flakey neighbor, a woman who is all tooted up about drones and government surveillance. She has a garden outside her apartment window, and she swears that she sees "government drones" hovering outside her window, watching her.

    Hummingbirds.

    If they are drones, they are wasting a lot of time and effort, because you see a lot of them around flowers, but not necessarily where there are any windows to peer into.

    Question:   Why in blue blazes would the government be interested in THIS woman? No reason I can think of. But she's absolutely sure!

    She's deeply concerned about "contrails," too.

    There's a lot of rampant paranoia around.

    Don Firth


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Bobert
    Date: 11 Jun 13 - 08:55 PM

    Lemme see...

    It's okay for Google to collect a 100 times more information about you in order to extract money from your wallet but...

    ...not okay for the government to collect 1/100th as much information about you to keep Osama bin Laden from flying airpalnes into your fucking house???

    Uh huh...

    B~


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Don Firth
    Date: 11 Jun 13 - 09:00 PM

    By the way, if you've never done it before, try doing a "vanity search."

    Put your own name in the Google search box and see what you come up with.

    As Bogey said in "Casablanca," "Here's looking at you, kid!"

    I've located a lot of old friends I'd lost track of just by putting their name in the Google search box. Turns up a lot of people with the same name, but a little sorting and VERY frequently you get an "AHA!! So that's were the sucker got to!!"

    You owe anybody money?

    Don Firth


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
    Date: 11 Jun 13 - 09:12 PM

    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: GUEST,guest
    Date: 11 Jun 13 - 04:56 PM
    "The FISA court oversees the program and allows it to proceed, the same court that Bush bypassed during which time Americans were all by totally silent.
    Has it occurred to anybody this whole thing is a intelligence ruse?"

    Oh, Looky!..................

    From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
    Date: 11 Jun 13 - 01:36 PM
    I tend to agree with you, SRS...but your post can extend to the philosophic/ideological 'bent' on any number of administrations, posing under the guise of being 'left' or 'right'...and not just solely to Snowden....for all we know, he could be a ruse, himself!"

    Where'd you get THAT idea???

    ......................................................................

    Don Firth: "A fellow I knew some years ago had a little problem. He was a pedophile. No one knew. But he got busted and served time. He has since been busted again. I found him, just by putting in his name and last known city of residence"........"Barbara and I have a couple of gay friends who've been living together for years and wanted to get married." ..........."but we have a flakey neighbor, a woman who is all tooted up about drones and government surveillance. She has a garden outside her apartment window, and she swears that she sees "government drones" hovering outside her window, watching her."...."Question:   Why in blue blazes would the government be interested in THIS woman? No reason I can think of. But she's absolutely sure!"......

    Don't you know any NORMAL people???? You sound like you live in a convalescent home for the criminally insane".....OH, and by the way, how could I pass up THIS ONE:.......

    Firth: "I get a pop-up ad telling me where and how I can meet single males of the same-sex persuasion."

    Persuasion????? Sounds like your 'pop up provider' knows it isn't 'genetic' too.........by the way, is your 'pop up provider' cute???
    maybe into S&M...and leather, too..........

    GfS


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Bobert
    Date: 11 Jun 13 - 09:14 PM

    Go for a walk, GfinS...

    Your head is clouded with wackoness...

    B~


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Songwronger
    Date: 11 Jun 13 - 09:30 PM

    From the World Socialist Website:

    What Edward Snowden has revealed

    ...The fury with which the political and media establishment has responded to the leaks reveals its justifiable concern that with each new revelation, the legitimacy of the American government and the entire state apparatus is further undermined—at home and abroad. The ruling class is driving toward a police state, but it does not yet have one. It fears for the stability of its rule....

    ...On the one side stands the financial aristocracy, which, in its social instincts and political outlook, is authoritarian. It looks on the population as a whole as a hostile force, and every citizen as a potential enemy. And with good reason. The corporate and financial elite is well aware that the policies it is pursuing are deeply unpopular.

    The aim is to intimidate and blackmail an entire society. As Snowden noted, after the state has gathered, on a permanent basis, data from everyone, "You simply have to eventually fall under suspicion from somebody, even by a wrong call. And then they can use this system to go back in time and scrutinize every decision you've ever made, every friend you've ever discussed something with."

    Such methods will be employed against any and all political opposition. With the information it has already assembled, the government can readily construct a detailed social and political profile of nearly every individual in the United States.

    http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2013/06/11/pers-j11.html


    Who Rules America?

    Obama presides over a country in which the president can—and does—unilaterally order the extra-judicial assassination of people all over the world, including US citizens; where entire cities, such as Boston, can be placed under de facto martial law; where the government seizes the phone records and emails of investigative journalists; where those who expose US war crimes, such as Private Bradley Manning, are tortured and prosecuted for treason; where the president can order alleged terrorists to be detained indefinitely and without trial in military prisons....

    Congress and both of the major political parties serve as rubber stamps for the confluence of the military, the intelligence apparatus and Wall Street that really runs the country. The so-called "Fourth Estate"—the mass media—functions shamelessly as an arm of this ruling troika.

    The cowardice and duplicity of Congress, above all, the Democrats, and the subservience of the media, exhibited in their response to the exposure of the NSA spying programs, encourage the military and intelligence agencies to go even further in their drive toward dictatorship. Mark Udall, the Democratic senator presented as the most "outspoken" critic of the spying programs, began his interview Sunday on CNN's "State of the Union" program by pledging his support to the "war on terror" and denouncing leaks of classified information.

    http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2013/06/10/pers-j10.html


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: number 6
    Date: 11 Jun 13 - 09:41 PM

    Bobert .... Osama Bin Laden is dead

    now

    back in June of 2005 you Bobert was somewhat concerned about the Patriot Act ... in fact you were scared of this Orwellian 1984'sh process that the Government was now going to use to spy on people.

    here's a quote from you Bobert from June 2005 in a thread labeled Patriot Act unconstitutional.

    "Ya know what scares me the most about the Patriot Act??? Well, it was written by a bunch of folks who campained all throughout the south on themes of too much government in "your life"... Yeah, these are the folks who prreach and campaign about the excesses of governemnt but when you turn yer back on them for one minute they find yet another way 1984 ya'..."

    well ... that was back in 2005 and Osama Bin Laden was still alive and terrorizing the western world, and Bush was sheriff back then and he was going to save us all.

    well ... go figure

    biLL   ;)


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Don Firth
    Date: 11 Jun 13 - 09:43 PM

    I know lots of normal, intelligent, "with-it" people, Goofy. But, being a gregarious guy, I know LOTS of people. A few people I'm acquainted with are a bit flakey. It's simple statistics.

    As to "normal, intelligent, 'with-it' people," you're not one of them.

    Don Firth


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
    Date: 11 Jun 13 - 10:08 PM

    From biLL('number 6's post'..quoting Bobert's post..""Ya know what scares me the most about the Patriot Act??? Well, it was written by a bunch of folks who campained all throughout the south on themes of too much government in "your life"... Yeah, these are the folks who prreach and campaign about the excesses of governemnt but when you turn yer back on them for one minute they find yet another way 1984 ya'.."

    Yeah, we know...It was written by Joe Biden in 1995!
    and check this out......
    ..with an interesting link...

    GfS


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Bobert
    Date: 11 Jun 13 - 10:21 PM

    Oh, bullshit...

    Here's the deal here, folks...

    Yes, the Patriot Act was written by a bunch of people who were reacting, okay, over reacting to 9/11...

    That is history now...

    What we have is a program that does nothing more than scan traffic and see if there are folks here in the US talkin' with folks who have a history of trying to fuck us up???

    Where's the beef here, ya'll???

    Don't make this about the entire Patriot Act...

    That's cheap...

    B~


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: GUEST
    Date: 11 Jun 13 - 10:23 PM

    The Patriot Act is bad legislation.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: number 6
    Date: 11 Jun 13 - 10:27 PM

    GfS ... this whole Patriot Act / NSA stuff is sheer lunacy and of course it is unconstitutional, it purposely destroys the whole foundation of freedom and democracy on the guise of creating an unknown fear onto the populace ... but what is really frightening is how all Dems and Republican Tea Party folks are all pointing fingers and blaming each each for the same damned thing. Sheer idiocy !

    As I mentioned earlier in this thread it's like Hanlon's razor .. "You have attributed conditions to villainy that simply result from stupidity"


    btw ... I like the analogy of 'homeland' in that clip ... is homeland the same thing as fatherland ?

    biLL


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: number 6
    Date: 11 Jun 13 - 10:29 PM

    Good try Bobert on worming your way out of that one ... it doesn't cut the cheese pal.

    biLL    ;)


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: number 6
    Date: 11 Jun 13 - 10:35 PM

    Oh btw Bobert .... it doesn't just scan ... it collects and analyses and crunches data, big data, big crunchers.

    check out the photos and captions in the link below.

    High-Tech Spies

    biLL


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: number 6
    Date: 11 Jun 13 - 10:53 PM

    for those that may be interested ... check out pic #5 ... "A former NSA analyst calculates that the servers there are large enough to store all the electronic communications of all of humanity for the next 100 years "

    Whew!! 100 years " ... that is one mean big daddy.

    a side note here .. the Utah Data Center in Bluffdale was built after 9/11 .. a result of the Patriot Act'

    another side note: "After the abuses of the USA PATRIOT Act were once again brought to light in June 2013 with articles about collection of most Americans Call Detail Records by the NSA and the PRISM program, Representative Jim Sensenbrenner, Republican of Wisconsin, who introduced the Patriot Act in 2001, said that the National Security Agency overstepped its bounds.[252] He released a statement saying "While I believe the Patriot Act appropriately balanced national security concerns and civil rights, I have always worried about potential abuses." He added: "Seizing phone records of millions of innocent people is excessive and un-American."

    biLL


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: GUEST,guest
    Date: 12 Jun 13 - 12:00 AM

    I forgot to mention that every single purchase you make online with a card issued to you by your bank, your knows has complete record of. I went to my bank to see to some business and the guy calls up my bank record to get certain data then he walked away to make some copies and on his monitor I could see every single online purchase I had made all lined up in a nice, pretty column. He had my entire online purchasing history right there.

    So the NSA doesn't need to collect your info, it's already been collected.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
    Date: 12 Jun 13 - 12:12 AM

    Bobert: "Yes, the Patriot Act was written by a bunch of people who were reacting, okay, oto 911"..blah blah blah......

    During the debate over the Patriot Act of 2001 then Senator Joe Biden compared this bill to its 2001 counterpart stating "I drafted a terrorism bill after the Oklahoma City bombing. And the bill John Ashcroft sent up was my bill."

    Take a look, Bobert.....

    GfS

    P.S....and don't ignore the links, then turn around and say he didn't write the original bill!


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Richard Bridge
    Date: 12 Jun 13 - 12:45 AM

    AFAIK UK CRB checks can only be done (a) by a particular state authority or (b) with the written consent of the subject. So, I repeat, if you say there are (presumably US) sites that will permit checks as stated on a UK person, please specify the site you used. I know some UK subjects whose details I can use to test your theory.

    There are I think two big points in this.

    What the US apparently does in invading privacy is specifically permitted by US law as against non-US-citizens, and what is more, in ways that are prohibited in the subject's jurisdiction. This is why various European jurisdictions are "demanding" that the US do this or that. The use of the word "demand" tickled my funnybone - if the US refuses what are the European governments going to do, send a gunboat?

    Secondly, the amount of data to be sifted required automation according to pretty specific criteria - and most of us are not going as things stand at present are not going to get flagged up by present automated criteria. But a government hostile to democratic process could very easily change what was sorted for so as to detect attempts at democratic opposition


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
    Date: 12 Jun 13 - 09:31 AM

    ""The good news is that judging from the indecipherable rant above, Goofus, you're not any crazier than you were 4 1/2 years ago.""

    The bad news?.... He's not any saner either!

    Don T.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: GUEST
    Date: 12 Jun 13 - 10:42 AM

    I think people are missing the point of what is wrong with all this. The law was passed in private and it still hasn't been made available to the public.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: pdq
    Date: 12 Jun 13 - 12:13 PM

    "...the FISA Amendments Act of 2008 'specifically authorizes intelligence agencies to monitor the phone, email, and other communications of U.S. citizens for up to a week without obtaining a warrant' when one of the parties is outside the U.S."


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Don Firth
    Date: 12 Jun 13 - 01:09 PM

    A PEW Research Center survey reports that the majority of Americans are okay with the NSA's surveillance of communications, many people stating that they see no problem with the agency's collecting of information that could prevent future terrorist attacks on the United States when financial institutions, businesses, internet advertisers, and telephone solicitors already have this information.

    From an article about the survey:   
    Currently 62% say it is more important for the federal government to investigate possible terrorist threats, even if that intrudes on personal privacy. Just 34% say it is more important for the government not to intrude on personal privacy, even if that limits its ability to investigate possible terrorist threats.

    These opinions have changed little since an ABC News/Washington Post survey in January 2006. Currently, there are only modest partisan differences in these opinions: 69% of Democrats say it is more important for the government to investigate terrorist threats, even at the expense of personal privacy, as do 62% of Republicans and 59% of independents.
    Full article HERE.

    Don Firth


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: number 6
    Date: 12 Jun 13 - 01:39 PM

    "69% of Democrats say it is more important for the government to investigate terrorist threats, even at the expense of personal privacy"

    What ?!?!?

    Good Grief ... what is wrong with you Yankee lefties ... :[

    biLL


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
    Date: 12 Jun 13 - 02:22 PM

    Don(Wyziwyg)T:"The good news is that judging from the indecipherable rant above, Goofus, you're not any crazier than you were 4 1/2 years ago.""The bad news?.... He's not any saner either!"

    OK, Don, besides your unsubstantiated little childish 'rant', you posted your 'unsubstantiated little childish 'rant', as a reply to my post: "During the debate over the Patriot Act of 2001 then Senator Joe Biden compared this bill to its 2001 counterpart stating "I drafted a terrorism bill after the Oklahoma City bombing. And the bill John Ashcroft sent up was my bill."
    Take a look, Bobert.....

    P.S....and don't ignore the links, then turn around and say he didn't write the original bill!"

    Now, do you have another side to what I posted???...or are you confined to your, "your unsubstantiated little childish 'rant'???

    Maybe trying to act mature, might sound like a 'novel idea'...but try it....if you can, OK?
    ...otherwise you've become as relevant as just another whining, thumb-sucking, wimp...that has no ability to articulate ANYTHING above an elementary school playground name calling.....is that all you have..or are?..Give it a shot....grow up..you can do it!

    GfS


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
    Date: 12 Jun 13 - 03:51 PM

    Don(Wyziwyg)T:"The good news is that judging from the indecipherable rant above, Goofus, you're not any crazier than you were 4 1/2 years ago.""
    The bad news?.... He's not any saner either!"

    OK..I'll take you on.....here's from Date: 04 Jun 08.....show me exactly where you draw your asinine 'conclusion'!!


    From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
    Date: 04 Jun 08 - 03:33 AM

    As per requested, Little Hawk, I re-read your post, and I stand corrected. That being said, Bush-Cheney, were in the same league, as Clinton during his term. Actually, not only are they in the same league, they are just more of the same person, with the same agendas...just extensions of the same agenda. It reminds me of being in the ring, with a boxer, who comes at you with a right..a left..another left, then a right....we in America have been battered by the same boxer, using both sides, and faking us out, while we are watching for the blow to come from 'the other side. We've been 'blind-sided', repeatedly, and every blow, right and left, has the agenda to strip us of our own sovereignty, while keeping us distracted from the real issue before us. Has anyone considered that the media, with their pundits, and speculations, right and left, has us focused on all the emotionalized issues while the wheels just keep grinding us down? Splitting us apart, and giving us the illusion that there is a big difference between us, that matters more than that we are all sharing this land, trying to survive, have a normal life, raising our families....just like every one else????? Whether you are white, black, rich or poor, male, female young, old, of any descent, we all share two distinctive traits given to all living beings, whether it is an animal, plant, or an amoeba, we all have the will to survive, and reproduce! Anything that gets in the way of this,(the common denominator of all living creatures) is a form of death! So, in conclusion, let's all re-consider...'Do unto others, as you would have done unto you'....not divide and conquer!"

    Here's another:

    From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
    Date: 04 Jun 08 - 10:23 PM

    Riginslinger
       Being as Little Hawk was merely quoting(cut and pasting) me, I'll jump out there and reply, for him, as well as myself. As I posted earlier, BOTH parties have been corrupted!, and the ideals that they used to stand for have been co-opted by the agendas of those, who have no interest, whatsoever, in representing you, or the original intention of either party. Haven't you noticed, that within yourself, that we tend to 'agree' and go along with what someone proposes, or compromises for, rather, than having them (the party) actually representing the majority will of their constituents?? Too many times we end up having to just 'go along' with what they come up with....and usually, it has NOTHING to do with the principles or ideals of our constitution...but always a stretch! Slowly by slowly, our form of government is changing, without the will, nor consent of the people. ..and we just sit around, to argue the 'party line' Well, my dear friend, the party (both) are, and have been, out of line, for a long, long time. Now we debate issues, that are not realities, to principles, but rather 'trends' fashioned to fit the 'agendas' shaped though corruption. This has become so obvious, that most think it normal! You are told what to think, not 'how' to think!!..Remember, right wing and left wing are on the same bird..(and its not our eagle, either). Clear enough????"

    How about this one?:

    From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
    Date: 05 Jul 08 - 02:15 AM

    The terms liberal and conservative, were originally used to describe how one took the constitution...one either interpreted it liberally, that is loosely...or conservatively...with not much changes, a more strict form. What is used to describe liberals and conservatives today is somewhat of an oxymoron....both sides use it to completely shred the constitution beyond recognition..both sides. Every remedy seems to take away just one more little right here, and a little there. The Clintons did it, and the Bushes did it. in my humble opinion, both sides broke their oath of office, and are still making justifications for it, today. Both are globalists, both pals who helped pave the way for the other. I believe that both of them atre neither liberal or conservative....just butchers of our form of government. Either a true liberal or conservative relates to the constitution as the center. what we see now is mislabled and both sides are doing what they can to change our basic form of government.. Its a sham!"

    ..AND FINALLY(for now)......

    From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
    Date: 14 Jul 08 - 01:53 AM

    Nation of whiners??....Of course we are...and their not even whining about the right stuff!!!


    OK, Don, now shut up!

    GfS


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: GUEST,gillymor
    Date: 12 Jun 13 - 05:22 PM

    http://dyn.politico.com/printstory.cfm?uuid=82617243-12BF-432C-A71B-9D08761DF1CD


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: GUEST,gillymor
    Date: 12 Jun 13 - 05:25 PM

    Whoops. Here ya go NSA Director today


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: VirginiaTam
    Date: 12 Jun 13 - 05:51 PM

    Well at least it's getting people reading.

    http://www.radiotimes.com/news/2013-06-12/sales-of-george-orwells-1984-soar-foll


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Don Firth
    Date: 12 Jun 13 - 06:22 PM

    Goofball:    "The terms liberal and conservative, were originally used to describe how one took the constitution...one either interpreted it liberally, that is loosely...or conservatively..."

    NOT SO!

    For Chrissake, Goofy, if you're going to pontificate about political positions, get yourself a copy of a good book on Political Science—one that contains definitions of the terms (like "Liberal" and "Conservative") along with explanations of the philosophies upon which these positions are based.

    Philosophically, particularly in the field of ethics and politics, these terms have meanings that predate the U. S. Constitution by centuries. And these meanings are still germane today—to people who know what the hell they're talking about!

    Most people who throw these terms around indiscriminately these days have no idea of what they mean. They're just words that sound like they mean something, but have no relationship to what's going on in the real world.

    Particularly when they are bandied about by ignoramuses like YOU!!

    Don Firth


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Songwronger
    Date: 12 Jun 13 - 07:18 PM

    Take part in a poll:

    Do You Approve of the U.S. Government Spying on Everything You Do?

    Click on the "Results" tab while you're there. As of now, 1200+ votes, 3% say yes.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: GUEST
    Date: 12 Jun 13 - 07:42 PM

    People, fellow(ette) RePubLicans and DemoCrats:

    If horseshit stunk like this, none of you would have close commerce with it. Well, probably.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: pdq
    Date: 12 Jun 13 - 08:23 PM

    How about this for a poll question...

           "Do you want the Federales snooping on every fucking thing you do? Well, do ya, punk!"


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: GUEST
    Date: 12 Jun 13 - 08:33 PM

    Funny, PDQ, but you supported them a year back.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Don Firth
    Date: 12 Jun 13 - 08:36 PM

    Internet advertisers and telephone solicitors, along with a whole raft of financial institutions ALREADY have that information and keep collection it all the time--but they do nothing to prevent terrorist attacks on the U. S. They just want to sell you stuff.

    The government, in an effort to see that nobody poisons the water supply of the city I live in or hijacks an airliner I'm flying in and flying it into a building?

    No sweat. The information's already out there.

    Don Firth


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: GUEST
    Date: 12 Jun 13 - 08:43 PM

    Long as you're ok, everything's right.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: number 6
    Date: 12 Jun 13 - 08:51 PM

    Maybe we should close this thread down so as not to disturb everyone from their sleep.

    biLL


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: pdq
    Date: 12 Jun 13 - 08:51 PM

    When both John Boner and Linda Muckcowski say that the whistleblower is a traitor, we be in deep doodoo.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: GUEST
    Date: 12 Jun 13 - 09:00 PM

    When a government makes laws in secret, the people have a problem.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: GUEST,gillymor
    Date: 12 Jun 13 - 09:46 PM

    When religious extremists fly airplanes into buildings the people have a much bigger problem.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Songwronger
    Date: 12 Jun 13 - 09:48 PM

    Current DrudgeReport headlines:


    White House Celebrates New High Performance Computing Center Opening...

    PATRIOT Act Author: Obama's NSA Reassurances 'A Bunch of Bunk'...

    DIRECTOR: PROGRAMS DISRUPTED DOZENS OF ATTACKS...
    EXPERTS: Played little role in foiling terror plots...

    Obama, 9 PRISM Partners Targeted by Class-Action Lawsuit...

    Lawmaker: Use NSA data to check IRS agency employees' links to WH...

    Earlier Denials Put Intelligence Chief in Awkward Position...

    Obama stands by Clapper after 'least most untruthful' answer...


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Janie
    Date: 12 Jun 13 - 10:40 PM

    I know that I had an aversive emotional reaction to the initial reports I was hearing on the news, then decided I needed to take a step back to listen, learn, discern to the best of my ability, then evaluate what I am hearing. That process continues. I should probably state that I am not a news and opinion junkie. I read my local newspaper, check out CNN everyday, but mostly get all of my news that I trust to be reasonably objective, as well as in depth reportage and analysis from assorted newscasts and in-depth talk shows broadcast on NPR.

    I'm still disturbed. Maybe more disturbed now that people with strong ties to the security operations of our government are being trotted out to discount and discredit Mr. Snowden's remarks. It is very possible there are a lot of semantics being parsed by experts with ties to government and that Mr. Snowden does not have the precise training and command of language to express himself in terms that are not easily parsed. I don't know that to be a fact. When I listened to various commentary re: his statements regarding "authority to", I wonder if what he meant by that was he had the combination of the security clearances and the IT know how to do so, had he been directed to do so.


    I think it naive to believe the checks and balances in our government can operate effectively in a climate of total secrecy. The collection and storage of massive amounts of meta data occurring secretly, protected only by constitutional "check and balance" processes that are also entirely secret is dangerous. Dangerous because of the complete secrecy. Perspectives of well-intentioned and very smart and informed people can get co-opted. The internal logic of a closed system can turn into a closed paradigm.

    I am not prone to paranoia. I have long thought about the implications of the data that many companies now have because of my frequent use of the internet and technologies and the Orwellian potential. Of the implications of my use of discount/member cards that give me "special pricing and sales" at my local grocery and pharmacies. Of my use of an ATM card. Hasn't stopped me from taking advantages of the benefits, but have also thought about the potential costs and the potential for abuse.

    The potential for abuse of massive collection and storage of meta data is huge. Of course, one then has to define abuse, and your mileage will vary considerably on that one.

    I reserve the right to change my mind in any number of directions, but at this point in time, I think Snowden has performed a great public service, and that he is also legally liable for his choice in doing so. Reality is not conclusive, nor is it pretty.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
    Date: 12 Jun 13 - 11:09 PM

    Gosh, Firth...you ALMOST said something..but failed to nail it.
    I guess it's all in the perspective how you define 'liberal' or Conservative'...frankly, they might get lumped together with the atheists, on a neighboring thread!...but having a STRICT interpretation of the Constitution vs. a loose one, does cover it...but in reality it is hardly a point...neither side even relates to the Constitution ANYWAY!...other than a 'talking point' in relating to how they are making it of none effect!...while pretending to defend it!!!

    The rest makes as little sense as you...pedantic, rhetorical, hoping to impress, nonsense!

    GfS


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Don Firth
    Date: 13 Jun 13 - 02:00 AM

    Goofus, you accuse me of being "pedantic" and "rhetorical" when you are too dull-witted to understand what I'm talking about.

    Simple. I suggested that you get a book on politics and read it.

    Oh, never mind. You wouldn't understand that, either. . . .

    Don Firth


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Don Firth
    Date: 13 Jun 13 - 02:07 AM

    Having a "strict" or "loose" interpretation of the Constitution is NOT how "Liberal" and "Conservative" are defined. There are stipulations in the Constitution that Conservatives are insisting on interpreting loosely, or simply ignoring.

    Didn't your mother ever tell you not to use words if you don't know what they mean?

    Don Firth


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
    Date: 13 Jun 13 - 03:49 AM

    Don Firth: "Goofus, you accuse me of being "pedantic" and "rhetorical" when you are too dull-witted to understand what I'm talking about.
    Simple. I suggested that you get a book on politics and read it.
    Oh, never mind. You wouldn't understand that, either. . . ."

    Gosh, I almost hate to point this out to your fragile egghead..but your post defined exactly what I just said about you!!
    Re-read it again...you may either get a chuckle...or an epiphany!

    As so far as your 'redefinition' of 'liberalism' vs 'conservatism'..once again, you are looking at it rather myopically...
    Like, "There are stipulations in the Constitution that Conservatives are insisting on interpreting loosely, or simply ignoring."
    You mean, like how to interpret it 'loosely'??
    Of course liberals think that...and conservatives think the same about liberals....and BTW, you haven't said ANYTHING, except run around in circles......pedantically!

    Jeez, what a screwball!

    GfS


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: GUEST
    Date: 13 Jun 13 - 10:43 AM

    Excellent post, Janie.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
    Date: 13 Jun 13 - 12:21 PM

    Janie: "I think it naive to believe the checks and balances in our government can operate effectively in a climate of total secrecy."

    Absolutely correct!....Those chumps in Washington, have forgotten, or disregarded, that they work for US!..and in a 'Democracy' the PEOPLE are supposed to 'at least' have a 'say'!...but NOOO!..Both political parties have been working as little dictators, giving us choices, of their choosing, then give it to us with 'great urgency'...and WE the PEOPLE get the privilege of being able to choose between either vomit or their puke! Whippee!! ..Most of them should be locked up, for treason, and violations of their oaths..which they have reduced to only being 'ceremonial' anyway!
    What used to be the 'District of Columbia', is now the 'District of Corruption'....but as long as they sugar coat it, some non-thinking partisan parrot, will spout if off with great 'authority'..as if they 'know something'...and how we should all take their 'word for it'..because, WE, the people who should be thinking, have left other corrupt criminals do our thinking for us!....now they gotta snoop on use...because of 'national security'...and how they'd love to convince you that that is their 'prime concern'.....just like the 'borders'(?)....they are so 'concerned' about the borders, they even ship guns to the foreign drug cartels!...then lie about it, in Congressional hearings. You bet!!..these guys have YOUR 'special interests', on the top of their priorities!.....(rolls eyes).
    If you think gold is valuable, try common sense,.....there's always some political hack trying to talk you out of it!!!

    GfS


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
    Date: 13 Jun 13 - 12:33 PM

    ""Maybe trying to act mature, might sound like a 'novel idea'...but try it....if you can, OK?""

    Maybe, if you posted coherent English prose, after giving at least minimal thought to sentence structure and punctuation, your posts wouldn't look like the story writing of a six year old primary school pupil.

    Then a more mature response just might be appropriate.

    I would normally adopt different approaches to an intelligent adult, a spotty teenager, or the aforesaid six year old.

    Don T.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
    Date: 13 Jun 13 - 01:20 PM

    Don T: "I would normally adopt different approaches to an intelligent adult, a spotty teenager, or the aforesaid six year old."

    Since when?

    GfS


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: GUEST
    Date: 13 Jun 13 - 03:40 PM

    Picture worth lots of words.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
    Date: 13 Jun 13 - 03:40 PM

    So what's the 'vision' of 'utopia'??..and how is what's going on, in Washington, a 'positive' approach down that road???



    ..besides causing hostile divisions among the people??
    Any clues???

    GfS


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
    Date: 13 Jun 13 - 04:03 PM

    Oh, and incidentally.....I'm not alone.....you couldn't make this stuff up!

    ...even though, they've been doing it for years!

    Utopia here we come!!!

    GfS


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Don Firth
    Date: 13 Jun 13 - 04:53 PM

    Goofus, any attempt to educate you is a lost cause. There are whole college classes in philosophy, ethics, and politics, not to mention many, many excellent books on the subject.

    But as they say, you can lead a knuckle-dragging nitwit to knowledge, you can't make him think.

    Just stick to picking your nose and flicking your boogers at the computer screen. That seems to be where your talent lies.

    Don Firth


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
    Date: 13 Jun 13 - 05:15 PM

    Look, screwball..I called it accurate 41/2-5 years ago..I suggest you get your head out of your ass, stop with your aloofness to reality, and sue your professors...they haven't taught you shit....well, maybe they did, because all you got is shit for brains!...and I don't feel like picking through the undigested corn to make you see the obvious! You haven't even begun to play 'catch-up' yet.....needless to say, you've been off your rocker ever since you first got annoyed by me telling you the truth..............BEFORE IT HAPPENED!!!!
    Shove it, buddy!

    GfS


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Songwronger
    Date: 13 Jun 13 - 07:02 PM

    Some things from today's World Socialist Website. I've always liked the site. They used to savage Bush, then they gave Obama a respectful interval, and now they savage him for his fascist behavior.

    Defend Edward Snowden!

    The Obama administration has already said it plans to indict the 29-year-old former National Security Agency (NSA) contractor. Congressmen, senators and media commentators have denounced him for treason and demanded that he be jailed for life or executed.

    The charge of treason is a vicious libel. Snowden is not the one betraying the democratic principles embodied in the Bill of Rights. By exposing the conspiracy against these rights and coming forward at the cost of his career and possibly his life, he is defending them....

    Nor are there any calls for impeachment proceedings against Obama. Forty years ago, Richard Nixon faced impeachment for actions that did not come close in their gravity to the violations of the Constitution carried out by the current president.

    The hysterical and vicious reaction of the establishment to Snowden's exposures has laid bare the degree to which anti-democratic, authoritarian and even fascistic conceptions are embedded in the outlook of the American state and media. Within these layers there is an increasingly rabid hostility to the Bill of Rights and, behind that, the American people....

    http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2013/06/13/pers-j13.html


    Obama administration officials, guilty of perjury, defend spy program

    The Obama administration has responded to the revelations of massive and unconstitutional spying operations, exposed in leaks by former intelligence employee Edward Snowden, with a campaign of lies, threats and intimidation.

    Among other crimes, the leaks have provided clear evidence of perjury on the part of administration officials, a criminal offense.

    Asked at a Senate hearing in March, "Does the NSA collect any type of data at all on millions or hundreds of millions of Americans?" Director of National Intelligence James Clapper responded with the statement: "No, sir." He said that any information collected on Americans was not done "wittingly."

    This was a brazen lie. Among the programs revealed by Snowden is one that allows the National Security Agency, which operates under Clapper's direction, to accumulate the phone records of most Americans. When questioned about his previous statements on Sunday, Clapper told NBC, "I thought, though in retrospect, I was asked a — 'When are you going to start — stop beating your wife' kind of question, which is meaning not answerable necessarily by a simple yes or no. So I responded in what I thought was the most truthful, or least untruthful, manner by saying 'no.' "

    The Orwellian phrase, "least untruthful," is an expression of the contempt with which Clapper—and the political establishment as a whole—views basic democratic rights. In other words, he lied, but with as much finesse as possible.

    The Obama administration rushed to defend Clapper....

    http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2013/06/13/clap-j13.html


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Don Firth
    Date: 13 Jun 13 - 08:28 PM

    Tsk tsk, Goofball!

    You're losing it!

    Don Firth


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Bobert
    Date: 13 Jun 13 - 08:35 PM

    What if I told ya'll that there was an organization that knows 1000 times more about you that the NSA???

    Well, there is... It's called Google...

    End of discussion...

    B~


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: number 6
    Date: 13 Jun 13 - 09:02 PM

    Google ... then there are text messages, e-mails, phone calls, blogs, forums ... it's all collected and hashed together by the NSA. The only way you can get around it is to be completely off the grid ... and that in itself would raise enough suspicion to the BIG machine who would then send out the spooks to keep tabs on ya.

    biLL


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Bobert
    Date: 13 Jun 13 - 09:04 PM

    Exactly...

    B~


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: GUEST,guest
    Date: 13 Jun 13 - 09:12 PM

    "While I believe the Patriot Act appropriately balanced national security concerns and civil rights, I have always worried about potential abuses. Seizing phone records of millions of innocent people is excessive and un-American." --Senator Jim Sensenbrenner earlier this month, who gave us the Patriot Act in 2001, who said nothing when Bush seized millions of phone records and emails without the knowledge or approval of the FISA court and who enlisted the assistance of several telecommunications corporations (AT&T, Sprint Nextel, MCI, Verizon, Google) in this endeavor warrants or court orders. NOW it's un-American.

    I love seeing the liberals and the conservatives eagerly piling onto the same bandwagon. I need the laugh.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: GUEST
    Date: 13 Jun 13 - 09:14 PM

    Whoops!
    Meant to say, "in this endeavor WITHOUT warrants or court orders."


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Songwronger
    Date: 13 Jun 13 - 09:17 PM

    Google turns all its info over to the NSA. That's what the scandal is about. Or one prong of the scandal. 8 of the largest internet and computer companies have been turning all their data over to the NSA.

    And next year, all your digital data will be stored at the new NSA data center in Utah. An excellent and detailed article from last year about the center:

    http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2012/03/ff_nsadatacenter/all

    ...Flowing through its servers and routers and stored in near-bottomless databases will be all forms of communication, including the complete contents of private emails, cell phone calls, and Google searches, as well as all sorts of personal data trails—parking receipts, travel itineraries, bookstore purchases, and other digital "pocket litter." It is, in some measure, the realization of the "total information awareness" program created during the first term of the Bush administration—an effort that was killed by Congress in 2003 after it caused an outcry over its potential for invading Americans' privacy....

    For the first time, a former NSA official has gone on the record to describe the program, codenamed Stellar Wind, in detail. William Binney was a senior NSA crypto-mathematician largely responsible for automating the agency's worldwide eavesdropping network....

    Binney left the NSA in late 2001, shortly after the agency launched its warrantless-wiretapping program. "They violated the Constitution setting it up," he says bluntly. "But they didn't care. They were going to do it anyway, and they were going to crucify anyone who stood in the way. When they started violating the Constitution, I couldn't stay."...

    The scope of surveillance expands from there, Binney says. Once a name is entered into the Narus database, all phone calls and other communications to and from that person are automatically routed to the NSA's recorders. "Anybody you want, route to a recorder," Binney says. "If your number's in there? Routed and gets recorded." He adds, "The Narus device allows you to take it all."

    And so on.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: GUEST
    Date: 13 Jun 13 - 09:23 PM

    So what. All my digital data is already stored online and, even worse, is available to anybody who cares to look at it for free for whatever purposes they may have in mind and I can't do a thing about it. So BIIIIIG deal.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: GUEST
    Date: 13 Jun 13 - 09:28 PM

    No one gives a shit.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Songwronger
    Date: 13 Jun 13 - 09:36 PM

    William Binney cares about it. As the Wired article describes, he was a senior NSA crypto-mathematician, and he quit the NSA when it began violating the constitution.

    People who tell you to give up and lay down your arms are government shills.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: GUEST
    Date: 13 Jun 13 - 09:54 PM

    Hannity and 99% of Americans


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
    Date: 13 Jun 13 - 10:44 PM

    While I do agree, that the NSA 'scandal', is hardly relevant to all the hype it is getting, it really IS the lesser of the 'scandals' freaking out the 'left'...I think it's being used as a distraction away from the bigger things....(which I've said before).....Now the problem is, how much of whatever the White House says, will be believed by anybody??
    ...but if you roll them all together, IRS, Benghazi Fairy Tales, 'Fast and Furious'..and how much stonewalling and deceptive 'press releases', not to mention perjured 'testimonies'...even the Boston Marathon details, I can't say I'm waiting with baited breath, to hear their next bit of 'transparency' ...are you?...I mean, how many out there, actually believe, that Susan Rice blamed the video, for the Benghazi mess, in front of the U.N....and the President had no idea that it was not true???? ..or who gave her her marching papers, and exactly what story to tell.....Anybody believe that????
    The amazing thing is how that must reflect absolute foolishness, and an insult to the rest of the world community...and how ridiculously stupid, all those idiots who bought into it are, in the eyes of the rest of the world....but banter on....we're getting use to a lot of stupidity on here...especially those who can't/won't see how moronic they are.....but that's OK...some other idiot will back you up....or you can always hail Don, as he whizzes by.......

    GfS


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: number 6
    Date: 13 Jun 13 - 10:50 PM

    Hannity Then and Now on NSA Surveillance .... hehe .... the Republican version of the issue, very much like the other side of Bobert's version of the issue, then and now.

    Good grief ... the lunacy of it all

    biLL


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
    Date: 14 Jun 13 - 12:14 AM

    Hey biLL, you got it...and as I've been saying all along now, it's BOTH sides...they're both corrupt, both working for somebody's agenda....and it ain't ours.....more like the international banksters, and multinational corporations...and they don't have 'conventional borders'....BUT, they do 'rent' our military, to fight 'talking point' patriotic wars....in 'our' behalf, of course(rolls eyes)..but we NEED those talking points, just to keep us away from the real issues...don't we?... The 'so-called left' has theirs, the 'so-called right' has theirs, and it's ALL scripted for us through the corporate owned 'so-called news' media....ask Don..he was one of them!
    (When pressed though, he just says he 'read' what was handed to him to read)...Oh, Happy Daze..and Kumbayah! ...and why not?..they paid him.

    GfS

    P.S.....but then he said he was the 'news director' too...hmmmm.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: GUEST
    Date: 14 Jun 13 - 01:04 PM

    When a government makes laws in secret, the people have a problem.

    Laws passed in secrecy go hand in hand with "ignorance of the law is no excuse."


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: GUEST
    Date: 14 Jun 13 - 03:12 PM

    Ain't that the truth!


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
    Date: 14 Jun 13 - 04:28 PM

    What law??..if you didn't even know it existed!
    Shit, they could (and do) just about make up anything, to snag a 'target'(?)

    GfS


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: GUEST
    Date: 14 Jun 13 - 04:34 PM

    I once asked a trapper what he trapped. He said, "Anything I can get."


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Don Firth
    Date: 14 Jun 13 - 05:20 PM

    Goofballupagus just can't stop lying about me. It seems to be an addiction with him.

    It is true that I was an announcer and news director in a small radio station in the Tri-Cities, Washington (Pasco, Kennewick, and Richland). The station played "easy listening" music, and as far as news was concerned, it was the local ABC Network affiliate. Other than flipping the switch at the appointed times to bring in the network news, I had nothing to do with the national news or with anything of a political nature.

    As news director, I was responsible for editing the local news and seeing that it got on the air. Daily, before the 7:00 morning news, I would telephone the sheriff's departments of two counties (Benton and Franklin), and the State Patrol and ask if they had any news to report. This might involve a bad accident on one of the nearby highways or something of that nature. During a particularly cold February, they asked me to broadcast frequent warnings that the bridge over the Columbia River between Pasco and Kennewick was badly iced over, that the listeners should avoid the bridge if possible, or if they had to use it, use extreme caution.

    The State Patrol also asked me, during the summer months, to broadcast a frequent warning to tourists that if they stopped in one of the rest areas on the highway between Yakima and the Tri-Cities, be very careful if planning to sit at the picnic tables in the area because on hot, sunny days, rattlesnakes might be hiding there, shading themselves from the hot sun.

    Oh, and most important! Since this was a rural area with lots of farming going on, I had to get a taped feed from the local agricultural bureau and broadcast the Farm Report in the 7:00 o'clock morning news.

    Man!! Lots of opportunity for me to insert misleading, Liberal political commentary there!!

    In fact, other than flipping the switch to bring in the network feed, I had nothing to do with national news.

    And the station did not do political commentary of any kind.

    And, yes, they paid me. A regular monthly salary. For some strange reason I was never offered any bribes.

    Goofball's big problem is that since he has no concept of personal integrity himself, he judges others (me especially) by what HE would do if HE were in the situation that he imagines I was in, i.e., try to take advantage of the situation so he could push his own warped political agenda.

    Goofy squawks brainlessly like a parrot about "loony liberals" and other such clichés and posts stuff gleaned from Right Wing and conspiracy theory websites, and then he (knowing nothing of their qualifications), he bad-mouths my college professors and claims I learned nothing from them.

    If HE is so well-qualified to speak on the subject of "loony Liberals," perhaps he can answer a few basic questions about Liberalism and its history. For example,

    Who was John Stuart Mill?

    Who was John Locke?

    Who was Alexis de Tocqueville and what did he say about the future of American democracy?

    Who was John Maynard Keynes and what were his economic principles?

    How, when, why, and in what country did the terms "Left" and "Right" start being applied to Liberals and Conservatives? And who, exactly, were the liberals and conservatives being spoken of?

    What are the general philosophical and economic beliefs of Liberals?

    What are the general philosophical and economic beliefs of Conservatives?

    In Plato's Republic, was Plato advocating a Liberal or Conservative system of government, and what was the nature of that system?

    These are basic questions, and anyone who can't answer them readily does not have a good grasp of what is meant by the terms "Liberal" and "Conservative."

    Oh! That's right! Goofballupagus doesn't answer questions.

    I wonder why. . . .

    Don Firth

    P. S. Now back to our regular broadcast (for what it's worth).


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
    Date: 14 Jun 13 - 07:21 PM

    Well, if you can't stay on the thread topic, I guess all I can grab out of it, that is at all relevant is this part: "Man!! Lots of opportunity for me to insert misleading, Liberal political commentary there!!"

    They switch so often, what is a 'liberal position' today, changes tomorrow, as soon as the elections are over and the 'so-called other side' is in power.....as witness the 'concerns' over the NSA scandals, war, immigration, IRS scandals.

    If you want to start a thread on any of the stuff you interjected, go ahead.....otherwise, just stick to your senile attempts, to say nothing, that you can't spin.
    Other than that you alleged that I 'misrepresented you'....that ain't the first time you made up stuff, for you do froth about!

    GfS


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Don Firth
    Date: 15 Jun 13 - 01:30 AM

    Nope. No answers.

    He doesn't know the answer to any of the questions I asked.

    He takes a thread off-topic all the time, but ducks behind that as an excuse not to have to display his abysmal ignorance.

    Now, who's "loony?"

    Don Firth


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
    Date: 15 Jun 13 - 01:59 AM

    Answers are NOT a problem....thread drift is..give it a rest.

    GfS


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Don Firth
    Date: 15 Jun 13 - 02:43 PM

    Very transparent dodge, Goofy.

    The simple fact is that you blather on like a parrot, use words you don't understand, and throw insults at people who know more than you can even conceive of.

    You're an ignorant troll. Nothing more.

    Don Firth


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
    Date: 15 Jun 13 - 07:59 PM

    Dodge?????..Look, if I, or anyone, wanted to 'dodge it, they'd just Google it up and give the 'appropriate' answer, if they didn't know it already...to give you the attention you are gunning for, so you could impress yourself.....I don't want to play.....OK? Hasn't enough good threads been fucked up by you pestering me, because you can't 'get over' having to eat your lunch, over past fuck-ups you were on the wrong side of...get over it!
    If not, tough shit!

    GfS


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: GUEST
    Date: 15 Jun 13 - 08:07 PM

    No offence, but you two seem like real dumb fucks.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: dick greenhaus
    Date: 15 Jun 13 - 09:05 PM

    I explained to my son, back in 1992, that the only way to assure privacy with the internet is to avoid using the internet. Nothing's changed.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Suzy Sock Puppet
    Date: 15 Jun 13 - 09:48 PM

    I watch in horror as the media persists in shifting the discussion away from the principles involved to Mr. Snowden himself. Not what the government is up to and whether or not it's right, but whether or not high school dropout computer nerds should have access to "classified" information.

    I consider Mr. Snowden a very astute and courageous young man. I don't particularly care if nobody remembers him from school or if he grew up a video game junkie. That could describe my son. That could describe my son's entire generation since we stopped letting them play outside and began to honor merchant's "1st Amendment rights" to sell our children violent video games.

    My thoughts and prayers are with Edward Snowden.

    Our government is corrupt and totally out of control. We are well on our way to tyranny.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Don Firth
    Date: 15 Jun 13 - 10:31 PM

    ". . . they'd just Google it up and give the 'appropriate' answer."

    Again you display your ignorance, Goofy. Some of the questions I asked involve quite a bit more that Googling up an answer. For example, the question about Plato's Republic requires one, first, to understand exactly what Plato advocated, then to determine whether or not this would be a good system of government. Would it have the advantages of a democracy, or would it inevitably lead to tyranny?

    A few of the questions I asked require some prior knowledge, and the ability to think. I picked a few of the questions deliberately, for that reason

    They are obviously beyond your knowledge and capability.

    Don Firth


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
    Date: 15 Jun 13 - 10:34 PM

    When are you going to be done???..You detour the threads all the time...give it a rest............only YOU care.

    gfS


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Don Firth
    Date: 15 Jun 13 - 10:51 PM

    Yup. Can't answer the questions.

    Don Firth


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Suzy Sock Puppet
    Date: 16 Jun 13 - 12:32 AM

    Don, Plato? Without a doubt, tyranny. For democracy, one must consult Socrates and Aristotle. Perhaps Diogenes "The Dog," who once wandered into Plato's academy and insulted the master himself. I'd leave off Democritus.

    And when you study these guys you see that these same two basic schools of thought have always been at odds. I'm with Socrates and Aristotle. A Platonic society is one that exists to serve an elite. That can never be a good society for the majority.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Stilly River Sage
    Date: 16 Jun 13 - 12:51 AM

    Don, you were right. Someone deleted the posts that were put up by both NB and Krinkle, to which you pointed out that they were written by the same person. I confirmed this - he was using the same IP address, but since the things I was confirming were now gone, I took out my post also. You're not losing your mind - Krinkle and Bastard are one and the same.

    SRS


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Suzy Sock Puppet
    Date: 16 Jun 13 - 06:53 AM

    I wanted to bring up an 18th century philosopher/architect named Jeremy Bentham. He is considered the architect of the modern prison. Mr. Bentham came up with an ingenious idea called "The Theory of Surveillance." It is simply this: If people know or even suspect that they are being watched, they will begin to police themselves. It makes your job as their overseer alot easier. And why not? Look how well it worked in the Soviet Union. I have a friend from Ukraine who told me that he grew up in a world where people kept quiet for fear of being targeted by their government. It's no way to live but they endured it. They had no choice.

    So people in America will begin to monitor themselves now that they know in the back of their minds that they are being monitored. They will be afraid to communicate freely as well they should be. It's a win-win for the government. The government is afraid of the people because it tramples on the people day in and day out protecting the elite. Therefore, they must have every means at their disposal to pre-emptively squelch dissent.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
    Date: 16 Jun 13 - 06:56 AM

    Can't?..Won't..the more you feed it the more it grows..nobody is concerned about your personal vendettas...except you...and most people have flashed, that most the time you're off your rocker.

    As far as Krinkle/NG...maybe he went that way to be heard, amidst the very biased, 'so-called liberal' mindsets that try to pulverize any other thoughts that don't go along with their brainwashing, and indoctrinations....as any REAL liberal would know, who would be standing up, for him expressing himself..whether you agree, or not.
    Frankly, I think under either persona, he has made more sense than some of our resident wannabe 'political activists' hacks.
    As our history unfolds, the hacks have outlived their uselessness, and that is manifesting every day, not just on here, but in our everyday living....We're just tired of hearing their fraudulent raps!!!...based on their con man leaders, who have inundated our political parties, and their corporate owned press!!!!!!!

    GfS


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Suzy Sock Puppet
    Date: 16 Jun 13 - 06:57 AM

    Henry Krinkle aka Niggardly Bastard? OMG, what a riot!


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
    Date: 16 Jun 13 - 09:20 AM

    Well???...I guess Barracko is just 'our' kind of guy!....so much for gullible liberals!....even though Bush did it, and Biden wrote the 'Patriot Act'....hey, if the IRS investigated organizations with the word 'Patriot' in it, do ya' think it will investigate Biden, and his wonderful piece of legislation??

    GfS


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Bobert
    Date: 16 Jun 13 - 09:23 AM

    Back to the discussion...

    SJL's post is interesting, however, I believe that "surveillance" goes back a lot longer than the 1700s... It is the basis of parenting and being a member of a civilized society... I mean, let's get real here... People watch other people... It's human nature... It's also part of one's or a society's survival skills...

    There is no real scandal here... Just acceptance that our powers of observing the actions of others have changed with the changing of technology...

    Who cares???

    Oh, that's right... The folks calling up wackos to find out how to make a bomb in order to kill a bunch of innocent people...

    I mean, lets' get real here... If you aren't making those calls then Google knows a 1000 times more about you than the NSA...

    The lesson here is quite simple... Don't be a fucked up wacko and guess what??? The NSA will have no reason to go to a FISA judge to wire tap your phone... Be a fucked up wacko and have your phone tapped...

    Duhhhhhhh....

    B:~)


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Greg F.
    Date: 16 Jun 13 - 10:13 AM

    Oogling and Googling, but no hiding
    KATHLEEN PARKER
    Published 6:28 pm, Saturday, June 15, 2013
    http://www.timesunion.com/opinion/article/Oogling-and-Googling-but-no-hiding-4602887.php


    At a party a few years ago, a young reporter bounded over to my cluster of social nodders and, with the breathlessness of a born tweeter, chirped: "What's the new hot thing?!" Without disturbing my mascara, I replied: "Anonymity." She looked befuddled.I continued: "To be Googled and to have nothing turn up. That's hot."

    Too late, alas, even then.

    In these post-Snowden days, the notion of anonymity is ludicrous. But so it has been for some time, though recent disclosures bring pause even to the habitually inured. It is one thing for Mrs. McQueen and Mrs. Harry G. Brown, my elderly dowager neighbors from childhood, to spy on each other through their porch screen doors. It is another for the National Security Agency to compile records of one's phone calls. Oh, for the days when Mrs. McQueen trumpeted gleefully: "I saw you eating that apple pie!"

    While Americans bemoan their loss of privacy — and allow me to ululate right along with you — it is helpful to recall our own role in this gradual process of, shall we say, regurgitative knowingness.

    That is, our apparent willingness to show-and-tell every little thing in the quest to be known.

    Fame and Celebrity are, by comparison, higher callings than whatever compels strangers to display, say, their tongues (or other points of anatomical interest) in the public forum of social media. These acts of baboonery, not so feigned after all, are unsubtly reminiscent of chimpanzees who, unconsciously aware of the camera's hostile intrusion, try to offend it with grimaces, grins and lingual extrusions.

    Now, suddenly we're offended that national security operatives are following our behavior patterns?

    Cue Cheetah's laugh track.

    Whether Edward Snowden, the self-admiring 29-year-old who decided to save us from ourselves if not our enemies, is hero or villain will keep us amused until time tells. Most likely he's a hybrid of the two, the heroic concentrated mostly in his having spawned an urgent and overdue debate about the costs of privacy in the service of security.

    Meanwhile, Americans are scrambling to read Aldous Huxley's "Brave New World," the subject of my high school thesis. One of my more ironic literary friends called to recite Joseph Heller's "Catch-22" scene wherein another famous Snowden, mortally wounded, literally spills his guts.

    Early infatuation with Huxley and other prescient writers — George Orwell's Big Brother seems suddenly cuddly — made me rationally paranoid, yes, but mostly aware of the tyranny of caring. It comes gently at first — we only want to protect you — but soon-ish becomes oppressive.

    Distracted by our gadgets, we hardly notice until a Snowden materializes. We love Google Earth because we can see our very own houses on our very own laptop screens. Wow. But who else is watching?

    When I visited then-Health and Human Services Secretary Tommy Thompson at his post-9/11 command center — a vast room filled with gigantic plasma screens and computer arsenals manned by military personnel — he pointed to my South Carolina office building on one of the screens. I asked Thompson if he could tell me whether my assistant was there. "Not yet, but soon," he said.

    Fast forward to the set of CNN's "Parker Spitzer" a couple of years ago when I asked Google CEO Eric Schmidt what options were available to people — like me — who might find his "Street View" a little creepy.

    "You can just move," he said.

    Well, no, you can't.

    There's no habitable place left on the planet where one can move to escape the data stalkers. Speaking of which, a peeve more personally concerning than whether Edward Snowden discovers where I get my tasteful highlights — or, as the Obama campaign mastered, which candidate I might support given my proclivity for same.

    Online shopping.

    Take one little tiny peek at an item of even remote interest and you are owned by The Thing.

    Once I Googled a purse that, turned out, cost $1,200. I moved along. Not so fast, hissed the serpent.

    A full year later, I'm reading about immigration reform and suddenly the $1,200 purse slithers into view, imprinting my brain with temptation I didn't invite. But, yes, I did. I Googled. I oogled. And, though I resisted, I am henceforth captive to an automated data pimp.

    Know this: Whatever you have done online is known. Whatever you will do will be known. And thanks to me, not even Mrs. McQueen and Mrs. Harry G. Brown, bless their dear, departed hearts, can ever be anonymous. Or hot.

    Kathleen Parker's email address is kathleenparker@washpost.com.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
    Date: 16 Jun 13 - 02:38 PM

    Cool posts, both of you!.....Here's the 'debate' on the other side(without bias)...with the breaking of the other things in the news, IRS, Rosen, AP, Benghazi, and follow up of lying about it, Eric Holder, and his very false testimonies, including 'Fast and Furious,..(if it was Chris Christie, it would be 'Fat and Delirious')..., the IRS, committees, and how they've been uncovering, between the stonewalling, pleading the fifth, and lying, while Jim Carney is being devoured by the press by the questions in his 'briefings', Snowden, and The Administration's policies or lack of, the IRS, doing Obamacare....not to mention the political tensions, hostilities, suspicions, and a growing distrust of your neighbor, because of their(and your) political outlook....and having to live with all that,....PLUS, the fanning of the fires, one way or the other....and then add the NSA, and all of the aforementioned confusion above, and rational thinking is out the window!......or is it a sign of a tightening of a police state....and that is the emotional read-out.....which is handy to know and articulate, if your writing music to get reach and get through.

    (Virtuosos would have loved that!)

    GfS


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Don Firth
    Date: 16 Jun 13 - 03:01 PM

    Exactly so, Greg.

    I suggest that to get a clue, everyone here Google their own name and see what they come up with.

    Then Google your name and click on "Image."

    As Bogey said in the movie "Casablanca," "Here's looking at you, kid!"

    Anonymity? Not these days.

    Don Firth


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Q (Frank Staplin)
    Date: 17 Jun 13 - 12:31 PM

    UK, Canada are linked in. China and Russia are doing their own mining of the internet. NSA is just one player.
    All of this on top of the commercial side of data collection and profiling.

    All of us are contributing to the data pile.
    This is the new world reality; we have to live with it, there is no turning back.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
    Date: 17 Jun 13 - 01:12 PM

    Good!!..and it's been that way for years!
    Maybe it's time for them to get GOOD input, instead of the bickering that they try to keep us distracted with!!!!!


    GfS


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Suzy Sock Puppet
    Date: 17 Jun 13 - 01:15 PM

    Niggardly, you may be right. Snowden's latest leak is decidedly not in the best interests of national security (even though everyone in the world is aware on some level that governments continually spy on one another), therefore, his credibility has gone down a few pegs. Perhaps he is making his government sponsored descent into notoriety, eh?

    Who's to say he's not an operative? If the government wanted to win major points in this debate over surveillance they would a.)initiate it b.)control the parameters. c.)Then, once the big debate dies down, nothing whatsoever changes. Just like on Mudcat:-)))

    I mean, they even gave him a stripper girlfriend with a blog, right?

    And Joe, as for your past work in intelligence, I don't care if you cast a disinterested eye over other people's information or not, spying on people robs them of their human dignity. It's for a prison system, not a free society. Intelligence is power and it's power that can always be abused. And it will be in all sorts of ways; in ways that have yet to be determined. That data is there and will be there in the future to be utilized by any agenda that arises.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: beardedbruce
    Date: 17 Jun 13 - 02:45 PM

    I don't really have a problem with the NSA getting all this information.

    I *do* have a problem with those who told us that Bush should be impeached for his doing the same thing, and the fact that this administration is using that information for political purposes, after using it as a campaign point against the Republicans.

    Seems like they get a special set of rules, that allow the Democrats to do exactly why they criticized the Republicans for doing, and be praised for it.

    But all the so-called "Liberals " are fine with that, as long as the correct people get praised, and all others blamed for the same actions.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
    Date: 17 Jun 13 - 02:47 PM

    True.

    It's a bit of a 'sticky wicket'.

    GfS


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Q (Frank Staplin)
    Date: 17 Jun 13 - 03:22 PM

    Reminded of a line from an old song-

    Everybody's doin' it, doin' it, doin' it,
    Everybody's doin' it now.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Bobert
    Date: 17 Jun 13 - 04:17 PM

    What if everyone felt that if they didn't like a law they could just break it???

    This kid is eat up with nihilistic illusions of grandeur...

    B~


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
    Date: 17 Jun 13 - 07:53 PM

    Bobert: "What if everyone felt that if they didn't like a law they could just break it???"

    YEAH!!...if they did, we'd have people breaking the law, and illegally sneaking into the country, wouldn't we??
    Thank you partisan idiots, for playing on the see-saw, as to who is spinning excuses...you'll notice how the parties switch sides, on the immigration issue!....depending on who is 'in power', at what time, so they can lie about that, too....meanwhile, hiding the fact that NAFTA effectively dissolved our borders...but they don't tell you that! It might 'hurt' the voters 'feelings'!

    Aren't you glad that the NSA is is listening in to 'protect' America, but installing turnstiles on the borders??..Come on in, Amigos..and radicals, too...and Drug cartels have Carte Blanche!...come on in!!

    Something is very...very wrong, here!....and what it is, is exactly clear...but first, you have to ignore the 'party line talking points'

    GfS

    P.S. You too, Bobert...you're being deceived and hustled. The voice of deception has uneven rhythms!
    You can't put an E string on your axe, tune it to B-flat and call it a G...it just don't sound too swift! So are the lies of stereo politicians, speaking out of both sides of their mouths...at the same time!


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Bobert
    Date: 17 Jun 13 - 07:58 PM

    Nah, GfinS...

    I'm on top of this one...

    There were a thousand other alternatives that Eddie had short of what he did...

    Very immature and stupid...

    B~


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Songwronger
    Date: 17 Jun 13 - 09:52 PM

    Don, you were right. Someone deleted the posts that were put up by both NB and Krinkle, to which you pointed out that they were written by the same person. I confirmed this - he was using the same IP address

    That post is a perfect example of the NSA-style abuse under discussion in this thread. With the statement above, a moderator abused her little position of authority to make us privy to information that's "for her eyes only." Now think of the NSA, having your complete browsing history and EVERY PIECE OF ELECTRONIC DATA PERTAINING TO YOU at its fingertips. Think of how that could be used against you.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Don Firth
    Date: 17 Jun 13 - 10:23 PM

    Not hardly, Songwronger.

    One person (generally a guest) posting under different names has been a Mudcat no-no for a long time, and when it's discovered, the posts are usually deleted.

    The mudelf who removed the posts was just following a longstanding policy

    Nothing sinister there.

    Don Firth


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Songwronger
    Date: 17 Jun 13 - 10:53 PM

    But Hitlerette didn't just delete the posts, she gave the handles the person uses. Snitch behavior. Slimy Stasi behavior.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Songwronger
    Date: 17 Jun 13 - 10:54 PM

    200


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Don Firth
    Date: 17 Jun 13 - 11:18 PM

    That, too, is customary. People have a right to know who's posting what. And ESPECIALLY when one individual is getting a bit over-cute.

    And your insulting comment about the Mudelf is in extremely poor taste.

    Don Firth


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Don Firth
    Date: 17 Jun 13 - 11:23 PM

    And the Mudelf who removed the posts is not necessarily who you think it is.

    You ARE a hate-filled sod, aren't you!??

    Don Firth


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
    Date: 17 Jun 13 - 11:23 PM

    Yeah, she even deleted a harmless joke by me...she does that...sorta like the same mindset that edits Mark Twain, who captured the mood of the times, they change it, to be politically correct.. and then deny that they re-write history!
    Come on, we are bigger than that....aren't we?......aren't we?

    GfS


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Songwronger
    Date: 18 Jun 13 - 12:27 AM

    Oh, I know who it is. She PMs me about shutting down my threads. Like she's winning battles for Obama by stifling discussion. Good little brownshirt. She also removes the most venomous posts by Mudcat's old guard. She's a revisionist.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Stilly River Sage
    Date: 18 Jun 13 - 01:11 AM

    I've barely touched this thread. Others have done most of the removing. And Songwronger - bite me. I've contacted you exactly twice. You can stop speculating about who does what around here - most of it has nothing to do with you. You think too much of yourself.

    SRS


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
    Date: 18 Jun 13 - 03:45 AM

    SRS: "You think too much of yourself."

    Product of high expectations of one's self, perhaps?
    Sometimes people get fascinated with admiring God's handiwork in their lives.

    It's cool.

    The real blessings come, when you marvel, and treat it with the respect.

    ....and look for it in others.

    Pretty soon, you lift people, as is, "May your faith and confidence grow, and may your highest expectations, be the ones found in yourself."

    One temporary drawback is smaller minded people, who are fearful, misinterpret that, as being mean...or nasty....so out of their fears, they feel a need to control.

    And musicians have a need to express themselves....(or would we be musicians?)

    Sooner or later, they walk out of their fears.....
    Life keeps growing.

    Cheers!

    GfS


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
    Date: 18 Jun 13 - 04:17 AM

    ""SJL's post is interesting, however, I believe that "surveillance" goes back a lot longer than the 1700s... It is the basis of parenting and being a member of a civilized society... I mean, let's get real here... People watch other people... It's human nature... It's also part of one's or a society's survival skills...""

    Way, way back, much further than you would think!

    ""Quis custodes custodiet?"" takes surveillance back at least to the Roman Empire.

    Don T.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
    Date: 18 Jun 13 - 04:27 AM

    ""But Hitlerette didn't just delete the posts, she gave the handles the person uses. Snitch behavior. Slimy Stasi behavior.""

    Wrong as usual Shitwringer!

    The slimy one is the devious bastard using multiple IDs to hold conversations with himself and falsely claim that he isn't alone in his nasty biased views.

    Dickheads like that need to be outed!

    Don T.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
    Date: 18 Jun 13 - 04:36 AM

    ""Yeah, she even deleted a harmless joke by me...she does that...sorta like the same mindset that edits Mark Twain, who captured the mood of the times, they change it, to be politically correct.. and then deny that they re-write history!
    Come on, we are bigger than that....aren't we?......aren't we?
    ""

    Awww Diddums!

    Maybe it wasn't as funny as you thought!

    Of course you would never dream of belittling anybody, or derailing the grown ups' conversations,...........actually, YES you would, and constantly do present yourself as the one with all the answers!

    You don't even understand the questions bighead!

    Don T.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
    Date: 18 Jun 13 - 01:12 PM

    RE: BS: The NSA Scandal

    Don(Wyziwyg)T: "Of course you would never dream of belittling anybody, or derailing the grown ups' conversations,...........actually, YES you would, and constantly do present yourself as the one with all the answers!
    You don't even understand the questions bighead!"

    RE: BS: The NSA Scandal

    GfS


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Don Firth
    Date: 18 Jun 13 - 02:50 PM

    There are a couple of people here who start thread after thread, all with one main aim:   trash President Obama. Songwronger, although certainly not the only one, is undoubtedly one of the most rabid. And prolific, having started many such threads.

    And he and his cohorts draw the usual collection of sycophantic boot-lickers and yes-men—like Goofball.

    And the stuff these Obama-haters post invariably has its origins in web sites and e-mail news-letters like "World Net Daily" and "NewsMax," the Rush Limbaugh and Bill O'Reilly of the internet.

    If one responds to these screeds with facts and logic, one is deluged with accusations of being a "Liberal" (well, yes!) and a "Fascist" (one cannot be both, which shows the level of political knowledge on the accusers' part) and a general barrage of other spittle-spraying insults.

    And you ask a few logical on-topic questions, instead of getting answers, you get accusations of diverting the thread, along with more spittle-spraying.

    An egregious waste of band width.

    (Question:   Do these dingbats ever post in the music threads? Considering that this is primarily a folk music web site and discussion group, what the heck are they doing here? Why aren't they making pests of themselves on some political forum?)

    As Dante said of those who occupy the lowest rung of Hell, "It is best to look upon them once, then pass on and think no more about them."

    Don Firth


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Q (Frank Staplin)
    Date: 18 Jun 13 - 02:55 PM

    Anacephalics usually have small, deformed heads, rather than bigheads. Fortunately, very few survive long after birth.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Bobert
    Date: 18 Jun 13 - 03:16 PM

    Don,

    Welcome to Tin Foil Nation... They don't know a danged thing about anything yet profess to know everything about everything... Reminds me of what my daddy used to say: "The world's biggest fool is not known until he opens his mouth"...

    These Tea-KKers are all alike... They don't do reality... They just hate...

    B~


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Don Firth
    Date: 18 Jun 13 - 03:56 PM

    It was bad enough to have a Jewish president—people like Songwronger and his entourage insisted that, instead of Roosevelt, his real name was "Rosenfeld." To them, FDR was part of the "International Jewish Conspiracy."

    Then, when John F. Kennedy got elected, the story from these people was that the Catholics were taking over the United States, and that they were even building a tunnel under the Atlantic Ocean from the Vatican to the basement of the White House.

    No kidding! I heard that from several sources!

    Then, Kennedy was shot. And just to make sure, they shot his younger brother as well.

    Obama is the first non-white, non-Anglo-Saxon to be elected to the White House.

    What the Hell! Trashing a President who happens to get elected despite the fact that he is not out of the acceptable KKK cookie-cutter is a Grand American Tradition.

    He could wear a halo, heal the sick, raise the dead, and walk on water, and they'd still hate his guts.

    Don Firth


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: GUEST,Henry Krinkle aka Niggardly Bastard
    Date: 19 Jun 13 - 01:55 AM

    He's 50% white Mr. Firth. Why do you choose the other 50% to fawn over? Does the white, Anglo Saxon part not fit your agenda?
    And you apologists always revert to drawing the race card.
    RE:BS: The NSA Scandal.


    =(:-( D)


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
    Date: 19 Jun 13 - 07:05 AM

    ""Why do you choose the other 50% to fawn over?

    Why do you choose that 50% to hate?

    Answer....You don't!

    You just use his black half as an excuse to hate the whole man.

    ""(Pres Barack Hussein Al-Obama)"" Those words don't say anything about Obama, but they do tell us exactly what you are Henry KKKrinkle aka Ni**erHatingBastard.

    Don T.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: GUEST,SJL
    Date: 19 Jun 13 - 08:05 AM

    Oh please. What does the color of Obama's skin have to do with the fact that 100 % of him is a complete and utter sellout who went back on everything he said in his 2008 campaign- and then some. Look at what his administration has done! He's the Bush Administration on steroids. And this is coming from a Democrat who helped him get elected. My mother is even more of a Democrat than I am and when he comes on, she sits over in her chair and says things like, "Ugh, stop lying through your teeth!"

    No sir. The race card is what got him elected. His unrestrained assault on the Bill of Rights is responsible for his sinking approval rating. It's what he'll be remembered for. And his AG will go down as the worst AG we've ever had. I wouldn't even know where to start with him. I guess if you're black or part black you can advance more of the elitist agenda than a white person can due to the fact that if people don't like what you're doing, they are automatically racist according to the folks who actually factor race in.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Q (Frank Staplin)
    Date: 19 Jun 13 - 11:58 AM

    Lets have a Congressional Circus, like the impeachment trial President Andrew Johnson faced in 1867.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Don Firth
    Date: 19 Jun 13 - 03:03 PM

    The "Race card" has already been played by the "Hate Obama" crowd.

    In the "Hate Obama" campaign, Obama's skin color has a great deal to do with it.

    In the Southern States after the Civil War, and in some backward pockets of the South even now, being one-eighth black classifies one as an "octoroon," and according to the miscegenation laws, meant that it was illegal for a white person and an "octoroon" to marry. "Racial mixing" was considered an abomination and "against God's laws." (Where in the Bible does it say that?).

    Miscegenation laws were outlawed by the Supreme Court as late as 1967. But in some Southern States, those laws are still on the books, despite the Supreme Court's ruling.

    So in the minds of some Neanderthals still extant these days, the fact that Barack Obama is of "mixed race" makes it particularly egregious. And according to their system of racial classification, Obama is a "mulatto."

    And the fact that a "mulatto" occupies the White House is particularly intolerable to some people.

    Don Firth


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
    Date: 19 Jun 13 - 03:11 PM

    ""Oh please. What does the color of Obama's skin have to do with the fact that 100 % of him is a complete and utter sellout""

    So, which one are you Guest?.....KKKrinkle, of Shitwringer.

    That "Al-Obama" is a direct quote from a resident racist, who has played the race card consistently.

    Don T.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Don Firth
    Date: 19 Jun 13 - 03:46 PM

    By the way, my abject apologies to all Neanderthals.

    The current batch of racists here are more akin to the sort of stuff that a lab technician grows in a Petri dish.

    Don Firth


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
    Date: 19 Jun 13 - 05:53 PM

    What is this??? What does this have to do with the NSA??...Why don't you take it to the "BS: Popular Views: the Obama Administration" thread?
    instead of re-affirming what great tolerant racists you are, on this thread!...and BTW, I agree whole-hardheartedly with 'GUEST,SJL' post..but take it to the other thread.

    GfS


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Don Firth
    Date: 19 Jun 13 - 06:11 PM

    Goofball reaffirming his excuse for being unable to answer a couple of direct questions.

    Pathetic!!

    Don Firth


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Q (Frank Staplin)
    Date: 19 Jun 13 - 07:40 PM

    No state has anti-miscegenation laws. The last was Alabama, the laws voted off in 2000.

    Many western states had anti-miscegenation laws until the 1950s-1960s.

    The laws in some of these states also specified Asians, Filipinos and native Americans (Oregon, Nevada, Arizona, Idaho).

    The Supreme Court decision was in 1967.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Songwronger
    Date: 19 Jun 13 - 07:47 PM

    My better half might think you're mistaken about the number of contacts, Maggie. Maybe I should sign her up here and let the two of you discuss how many times you've harassed me. Or no, I can't do that because you'd wet your pants if two people posted from the same IP address. You seem to be stricken with Surveillance Sickness. That's no doubt part of why you wanted to become a moderator, and it's what makes you unfit to be one. A conundrum, like with politicians: the only people fit to serve are the ones who don't want to serve.

    But back to the topic.

    This story is disgusting. Obama pretends to trash Dick Cheney, the war criminal he allowed to go free. Truly disgusting. Both men should have been fairly tried and executed by now:

    Obama, Cheney and Snowden's revelations


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Suzy Sock Puppet
    Date: 19 Jun 13 - 07:57 PM

    Don, it is not the KKK, it's me, Susan. I've been using another phone because I used up all my own data watching YouTube videos. I had this idea that it would be fun to compare several videos of the same song in much the same way people around here compare texts. After sifting through dozens of covers of the same song, I picked out 9, 11 if you count visuals. And then I ran out of data because of it. Now I've gone and signed in on someone else's phone to allay your fears that I am the KKK :-)

    Hey, when we're done arguing here, can we like play a game or something?


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Bobert
    Date: 19 Jun 13 - 08:27 PM

    I thought this was about the so-called NSA scandal, which would have not been squat under George W. Bush...

    What we are seeing is a major backlash against Obama by the usual suspects: Southerners...

    Duhhhhh....

    I appreciate the thread where other presidents had mixed blood... Southern Man don'f know squat about that... I know, I live here...

    Bottom line is that what we are seeing is a different standard for a black president then what we see for a white president... Look where all the big whiners come from... The South or midwest...

    Ain't rocket surgery here...

    B~


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: number 6
    Date: 19 Jun 13 - 08:42 PM

    there ya go again Bobert ... always blaming those southerners on everything and over all this NSA spy stuff ... it's so,well, so cliche ... personally I blame those folks in Maine ... living right up there bordering on those two Canadian provinces of Quebec and New Brunswick ... that would make any red blooded American downright paranoid.

    biLL   ;)


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Bobert
    Date: 19 Jun 13 - 09:01 PM

    Okay, biLL... You blame the Maine renecks and I'll blame the pones down here...

    We got 'um all covered that way...

    B;~)


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Songwronger
    Date: 19 Jun 13 - 09:03 PM

    It was in November 1973 that President Richard M. Nixon, ensnared in the deepening Watergate scandal, uttered the phrase for which he will always be remembered: "I am not a crook."

    Nearly 40 years later, President Barack Obama used a Monday night television interview to give his own variation on the same theme, insisting to the American public that he is not Dick Cheney.

    Obama gave the interview largely to counter revelations about crimes far more serious than those committed by Nixon and his co-conspirators. Over the past two weeks, documents leaked by former National Security Agency (NSA) contractor Edward Snowden have revealed state surveillance programs carried out behind the backs of the American people and in violation of basic constitutional rights that target millions of people in the US and around the world....

    If the former candidate of "hope" and "change" fears that he is increasingly perceived among many who voted for him as the reincarnation of Dick Cheney, it is for good reason. The PRISM program exposed by Snowden, in which Yahoo, Google, Microsoft and other private information technology companies collaborate with the NSA in spying on hundreds of millions, in the US and internationally, is the successor of the Terrorist Surveillance Program (TSP), the warrantless spying operation with which Cheney was identified before a federal court found it unconstitutional and illegal.

    The TSP, along with other spying programs, was continued under a new name and with the FISA court's rubber stamp. It was passed on from the Bush to the Obama administration.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
    Date: 20 Jun 13 - 01:06 AM

    Jeez..Even under Nixon, John Lennon's phones were tapped. This isn't new...and back then they thought he was subversive. I guess history will tell us if he was....though, to the policies of the Nixon administration, he was a subversive....I mean, look how the public opinion changed about the Vietnam War.....and certain elements in his administration were making a fortune off the Golden Triangle...and as long as they prolonged the war, the more money poured it....as long as it was for a 'good cause', they could rationalize it away...Oh, Oh..I forgot, not to mentioned the arms that were diverted from Vietnam to the Shah of Iran!...setting up the Iran/Contra crap..and then morphing into what they have over there, now...See, what happened is when they shut down shop in Southeast Asia, they set up shop in Central America...next came coke for arms,(and big profits)..then Iran changed hands, hostages, and deals for arms for their release....and they knew who they were dealing with, because they knew what we had been doing....and, Oh yeah, they tapped John Lennon's phone for being a 'subversive'......

    ...and one has to wonder....what the fuck are they up to now??...especially, when they are going broke......sorta makes people 'frantic'.....they've already allowed the Ponzi scheme to fuck over the housing market....started 'adventuristic wars', by lying through their teeth....been corrupted, and bought off by the same guys printing fiat money..AND THEN CHARGING US INTEREST to use it.....passed bills for their corporate buddies..even corrupted the Supreme Court....so you better watch out...YOU might be a 'subversive', OR you can nod your head, like falling asleep, in rapid succession, and be another 'yes man'....except you have to grow feathers, and be a 'yes-parrot'....and make LOTS of excuses, for the patently obvious corrupt behaviors, lies and further wars, and sabre rattling...all in the nature of being 'righteously justified'....yeppers, gobble it up.

    GfS


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
    Date: 20 Jun 13 - 01:09 AM

    Oh..and P.S. THAT was the incredibly SHORT version!!!!!!!!!!

    GfS


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
    Date: 20 Jun 13 - 11:36 AM

    If you really believe all that fantasy Goofus, I would suggest you would be best advised to STFU, because when they start eliminating "subversives", you'll be well up the list.

    Naah! They'll spot in a nanosecond that you're all piss and wind.

    Don T.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Greg F.
    Date: 20 Jun 13 - 11:42 AM

    Don, I think ShitWringer and BeardedBullshit must trade this garbage back and forth between them.

    Question is, are they having us on, or do they actually believe the horseshit they post?

    (that's a rhetorical question - no need to respond)


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
    Date: 20 Jun 13 - 12:02 PM

    Eh???..Where have you been hiding for the last 40 years???
    You don't know ANYTHING about this??????
    ..or are you just loud mouth idiots??

    Look up ANYTHING I just posted...and quit being so fucking stupid, OK?

    GfS


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Greg F.
    Date: 20 Jun 13 - 12:33 PM

    Look Out! GeistInsanity is throwing a temper tantrum- like most two-year-olds will do from time to time.

    Anyone got a bucket of cold water?


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Q (Frank Staplin)
    Date: 20 Jun 13 - 12:53 PM

    Ho hum. Same old garbage from the usual suspects.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Don Firth
    Date: 20 Jun 13 - 12:54 PM

    Just flushing the toilet might work.

    Don Firth


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
    Date: 20 Jun 13 - 06:16 PM

    RE: BS: The NSA Scandal

    GfS


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: GUEST
    Date: 20 Jun 13 - 09:44 PM

    Diction and grammar surely do take a beating on this site.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
    Date: 21 Jun 13 - 12:40 AM

    Guest: "Diction and grammar surely do take a beating on this site."

    Wuz dat??

    GfS

    P.S...OK..back to the topic...


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: GUEST
    Date: 21 Jun 13 - 08:15 AM

    "P.S...OK..back to the topic..."


    Right. To quote you, "Wuz dat??"


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: GUEST,SJL
    Date: 21 Jun 13 - 09:49 AM

    Fwd: RE: BS: NSA Scandal

    Guest from Sanity, you are right on target with all that you have been saying. These others have their heads in the sand. That's a bad thing because we should all have an awareness of what is really happening here.

    And who pays for those enormous data storing centers? That's right! They are making us pay for our own enslavement, oh excuse me, safety right? Yeah, right.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Bobert
    Date: 21 Jun 13 - 10:14 AM

    Let's get real here... The NSA predates Obama's election and it's practices have been have as well...

    Here's the rub... Over the course of it's existence privatization has been pushed on it by the "usual suspects" (Congressmen with rich donors like Blackwater, Halliburton, etc.) with some ill-conceived notion that they are cheaper???

    Huh???

    $200,000 a year for a high school dropout...

    Well, seems that "security clearances" have been privatized, too, and that is absolutely turning government over to the corporations... This was and continues to be the stupidest of the stupid ideas but, hey, with a totally corrupted Congress this is the kind of stuff that happens...

    Remember Halliburton getting that no-bid contract in Iraq??? The argument was that only Halliburton knew how to do the stuff that needed to be done???

    Huh???

    Drive trucks??? Build schools and hospitals??? Cook food??? Do laundry???

    Uh huh??? Some very complicated stuff...

    Oh, and remember Halliburton getting caught stealing million$ in tax payer money by over charging US for fuel???

    Cheaper, my butt...

    This is the kinda shit that happens when you allow the fox to guard the hen house, people... That is the scandal here... We have a systemic problem with the way we conduct security and you can lay the blame for all of this at the feet of George W and Congress... They set it up to fail and it's doing a fine job of it...

    B~


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
    Date: 21 Jun 13 - 11:23 AM

    Bobert: "This was and continues to be the stupidest of the stupid ideas but, hey, with a totally corrupted Congress this is the kind of stuff that happens..."

    So, you think 'Congress' is the ONLY thing in Government that is corrupted???????????......That's interesting..it was a Democratic Congress that voted in Obama care, and the 'War'...

    So is it ....Pick one

    A.__Congress
    B.__A Democratic Congress
    C.__A Republican Congress
    D.__The Supreme Court
    E.__The Department of Justice
    F.__The Democratic Administration
    G.__The Republican Administration
    H.__All of the Above
    I.__None of the Above

    Kool-Aid will be served after the quiz.

    GfS


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
    Date: 21 Jun 13 - 11:39 AM

    ...and thank you, SJL,...it's a shitty job, but somebody's got to do it! ....and I'm NOT a political guy, just a musician(among of couple of other things)...and by NOT being political, I don't have to make excuses for 'my side's' bad behavior, while throwing rocks at the 'other side'....but Dear Mudcatters, you can rest assured, this is the ONLY forum I'm on...so you can relax in the fact that the rest of the world will stay stupid. You'll have plenty of company recruiting 'impassioned lemmings' into your parties.
    'I'm not in the party, officer, I'm with the band!'

    Regards SJL!

    GfS

    P.S. Ahh, sweet objectivity!


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: GUEST
    Date: 21 Jun 13 - 12:20 PM

    You didn't reply to my email, so laud yourself all you want, you're still a rude asshole, no offence. Good musician though.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
    Date: 21 Jun 13 - 01:16 PM

    You sent me an e-mail??..let me go check..I didn't know...
    Meanwhile..."And you think the NSA is bad just wait until the IRS gets your medical records"

    Ok..be right back....

    GfS


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: GUEST
    Date: 21 Jun 13 - 01:23 PM

    GfS: I sent it over eight or nine months ago.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
    Date: 21 Jun 13 - 01:48 PM

    Holy shit....now I'm really confused....send me another...right now..OK? Then I'll know what to look for...besides, I wasn't around the computer a while ago...I was either in the hospital or recovering at my daughter's, who was not online...

    .....awaiting the mysterious e-mail........

    GfS


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: number 6
    Date: 21 Jun 13 - 04:52 PM

    Why shouldn't I work for the NSA ?

    biLL


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
    Date: 22 Jun 13 - 12:07 AM

    ..in light of this thread.....

    ..you might want to check this out....

    ..and there are more...

    GfS


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: GUEST,Henry Krinkle aka Niggardly Bastard
    Date: 22 Jun 13 - 01:41 AM

    With so many people with intelligence and law enforcement backgrounds here at the Mudcat and the common knowledge that folk music is Ground Zero for anti-government protest,I think the Mudcat may well be a spysite for the NSA.
    Something to think about.
    =(:-( o)


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
    Date: 22 Jun 13 - 05:01 AM

    I know they don't have a problem with me..they know, I'm telling the truth and the way it is.....so what?....I'm a musician, not a political nutcase, like some of the...well,...no...we won't go there...my job is to capture the angst and mood, and speak to it through music....Think of it as a photo journalists, but instead of cameras and pictures, I use sounds and notes....and they don't even have lyrics. I came on this thread, at the referral of a violinist/fiddler I know, and who sometimes does stuff like this, sometimes...so I came on...and lo and behold, lot's of people were talkin' politics...so, I jump in..and of course, find out that most the people talking politics, are EXACTLY like the people they were PROTESTING, when THEY started talking about politics, during the early protest days!!!...and during their growing up, they held onto the GEEZ of protesting, but, became identical to the overly nationalistic/politically partisan, do nothing, naive, out of step, out of time, people like their PARENTS....and became a starry eyed idealist, who buys into mesmerizing, political rhetoric...and thinks it's HEAV-E-Y MAN....and all the guy, who is talkin', 'so heavy, man!'...is just talkin' shit...
    We used to have a saying about people like that, years ago..still use it..."If you 'turn on' a lame, what you get is a turned on lame!"
    I used to marvel, at how lame some of the 'protesters' were back then, they'd march, protest, start talkin revolution', as if it meant themselves, too...and these were a bunch of weenies who were too chicken to get drafted, so they hid behind being a 'conscientious objector'!!! start singing 'Give Peace A Chance'...and then want to start a revolution!!!!....as long as everybody participated, except for him...maybe he could go home and catch the 'progess' on T.V....(must be ringin' a few bells out there)... ..I wonder if that's why they call them 'geezers'....and now we're here!
    Well, I've put it in various ways before, I guess I'll say it again, If you got any substance and real discipline(more than just yakkin' shit, I'd recommend making the way the tones say the notes for you.
    Besides, music is far more persuasive than arguing over 'talking points' which are, after all, carefully thought out, before being released, to argue about...but have very little to do with anything that's really going on.....but that's 'politics'...meant to manipulate and distract.
    So let's have an in depth analysis and debate, over who's version of the distraction is 'better'..because there JUST MIGHT BE something TO IT!..and when you get to the very bottom of it...you completely forget, that, after all, it was a distraction....and then the next time you have to think about it, you count the 'experience' as gaining wisdom....and now we should listen to what you say..this TIME! So I'll leave this to entertain you...both Mudcatters and 'would be listeners'....if they haven't fallen asleep yet,....
    a tune that 'got to the bottom of it' decades ago.....just a guy and a piano....Listen to the whole thing..and 'enjoy'.....(?)

    GfS


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: GUEST,Henry Krinkle aka Niggardly Bastard
    Date: 22 Jun 13 - 05:01 AM

    Love is so exciting.
    =(:-( x)


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Q (Frank Staplin)
    Date: 22 Jun 13 - 12:42 PM

    Nothing new in the last 100 posts.
    Even the insults are moldy, fusty and tedious.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Bobert
    Date: 22 Jun 13 - 03:47 PM

    Your mama, Q!!!

    That any better???

    B;~)


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: GUEST
    Date: 22 Jun 13 - 11:42 PM

    He Ain't Heavy


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
    Date: 23 Jun 13 - 12:11 AM

    : GUEST,Henry Krinkle aka Niggardly Bastard

    Roses are red,
    Violets are blue,
    I'm a schizophrenic,
    And so am I.

    GfS

    P.S. Glad you liked the song!!


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
    Date: 23 Jun 13 - 08:44 AM

    ""All you have to do is talk gibberish. No worries.""

    Goofus will be safe then!

    Don T.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
    Date: 23 Jun 13 - 11:13 AM

    Hey Don T, if you have a point, then make it......if you have no point, then keep posting stupid, inane posts, but also 'pardon us', if we think you have no point!

    GfS


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
    Date: 23 Jun 13 - 05:16 PM

    That was a point, based on the incoherence of much of your airy fairy posting on many threads.

    You do tend to specialise in gibberish.

    Don T.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
    Date: 23 Jun 13 - 05:36 PM

    Oh shut up!

    GfS


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
    Date: 23 Jun 13 - 06:08 PM

    An interesting read..for both sides of the pond....

    GfS


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: GUEST,Henry Krinkle aka Niggardly Bastard
    Date: 23 Jun 13 - 06:51 PM

    Where the country's headed
    =(:-( P)


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Songwronger
    Date: 23 Jun 13 - 08:36 PM

    A link to a 7 minute video. Judge Napolitano makes the point that Snowden is being used to draw attention away from the most egregious violation of constitutional rights in our nation's history. In the past couple of weeks we've learned that the NSA is keeping illegal tabs on all of us, all of the time, and storing the information for all time. Without legal authority. Police state. While the lawless government doing this tries to fix our attention on one man, Snowden:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ri8XLAunewA


    NSA Whistleblower: NSA Spying On – and Blackmailing – Top Government Officials and Military Officers

    http://www.fromthetrenchesworldreport.com/nsa-whistleblower-nsa-spying-on-and-blackmailing-top-government-officials-and-military


    Obama's 'Insider Threat' Program: Discourages Whistleblowing, Treats Leaking as Aiding the Enemy

    http://www.fromthetrenchesworldreport.com/obamas-insider-threat-program-discourages-whistleblowing-treats-leaking-as-aiding-the-


    FBI Chief Demands Broader Surveillance Powers

    http://news.antiwar.com/2013/06/20/fbi-chief-demands-broader-surveillance-powers/


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: GUEST
    Date: 23 Jun 13 - 08:47 PM

    "the NSA is keeping illegal tabs on all of us, all of the time"

    It was legal. They passed a quiet law making it so.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Songwronger
    Date: 23 Jun 13 - 08:49 PM

    A law that violates the constitution is void upon its passage.

    Marbury v Madison


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Songwronger
    Date: 23 Jun 13 - 10:12 PM

    So, the federal government and the intelligence agencies conspire to strip us of our fourth and fifth amendment rights, then they focus our attention on the whistleblower who told us about their rampant lawlessness. Current top headlines on Drudgereport:

    SAFE PASSAGE FOR SNOWDEN!
    CHASE ON...
    WIKILEAKS SNEAKS...
    Out of sight after leaving HK...
    Officials struggle to explain how he got away...
    U.S. warns other countries...
    Fallout hits ChinaRussia...
    NSA director: Irreversible damage...
    'Carrying 4 laptops'...
    Greenwald: Persecution...
    Feinstein: 'He could have lot, lot more'...


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Songwronger
    Date: 24 Jun 13 - 12:01 AM

    Yes, exactly. The information can be used against you.

    Take the case of Michael Hastings. He died in a car wreck 5 days ago.

    Michael Hastings - wikipedia

    In 2010 Hastings did a piece about General Stanley McChrystal for Rolling Stone magazine. The article led to Obama firing McChrystal.

    So Hastings was capable of doing TRUE journalism, and the day before his death he stated he was going to break another big story about the NSA. He also told friends he was going into hiding because the FBI was following him.

    Then he had a car wreck in Los Angeles and died. The Los Angeles Police Department said there was no evidence of foul play, but a witness to the crash said the car was going full speed before it hit a tree.

    And then there's this:

    Full remote control of ALL modern U.S. market cars PROVEN

    A team of hackers from the Department of Computer Science at the University of Washington conducted a study which has proven that all cars equipped with antilock brakes sold in the U.S. can be hacked via remote control and have their brakes entirely disabled with the car in motion, throttle revved, and remain fully operational with the key removed and the car in park with all driver input entirely ignored. -

    http://therebel.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=657564:full-remote-control-of-all-modern-u-s-market-cars-proven

    So, if you're the NSA, and a reporter with a proven track record of breaking big, embarrassing stories threatens to release damning information about you, what do you do? You know WHERE the reporter is going, what kind of car he's driving, you can track him in real time with GPS, you can hack into his car, disable the brakes and rev the engine to full speed...

    The possibilities for sinister use of information are endless.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
    Date: 24 Jun 13 - 12:25 AM

    I posted a similar link about the story...and in the article, Well, here: "Even though the LAPD are sticking with the speeding story, a couple of witnesses told KTLA that they saw or heard something unusual. "I was just coming northbound on Highland and I seen a car going really fast, and all of a sudden I seen it jackknife," said one witness, while another drew comparisons to an explosion: "It sounded like a bomb went off in the middle of the night. My house shook. The windows were rattling." And as LA Weekly noted, conspiracy theorists are linking Hastings to a technique called "Boston Brakes," wherein the electronic management of a car, specifically a Mercedes, can be hijacked remotely. (Hastings was driving a Mercedes at the time of the accident.)"

    ....and this quote: "Just hours before the crash, he wrote that the FBI was interviewing his "close friends and associates" and that he was going to "go off the radar for a bit" to work on a "big story." He warned his colleagues that if the feds came knocking, they should have a lawyer present before they started discussing their news-gathering practices. He CCed his friend Staff Sgt. Joseph Biggs, who shared the e-mail with KTLA. "It alarmed me very much," he told the TV station. "It didn't seem like him [...] and I just had this gut feeling that really bothered me."

    I have two links on my post:
    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
    Date: 22 Jun 13 - 12:07 AM

    Check 'em out.

    GfS


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: GUEST
    Date: 24 Jun 13 - 10:09 AM

    http://www.boulderweekly.com/article-11289-nsa-uses-terrorism-to-justify-mass-surveillance-that-started-long-before-9_11-and-the-patriot-act.html


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: GUEST
    Date: 24 Jun 13 - 01:09 PM

    An Open Message to the NSA


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Q (Frank Staplin)
    Date: 24 Jun 13 - 01:22 PM

    I would feel threatened if the NSA and sister operations here in Canada were restricted.

    NSA is acting for the population as a whole, and its actions are much appreciated.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
    Date: 24 Jun 13 - 01:58 PM

    Q: "I would feel threatened if the NSA and sister operations here in Canada were restricted."

    Do you really think that Canada needs a sister operation??..More than likely, the NSA has it all covered...Canada too!

    GfS


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Bobert
    Date: 24 Jun 13 - 02:38 PM

    I'm with you, Q...

    The old saying "Fool me once, shame on you... Fool me twice, shame on me" applies here...

    Hey, if there are folks who want to kill innocent people here on this side of the pond and they and are hooking up with bad guys on the other side it would be irresponsible to ignore them...

    B~


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Q (Frank Staplin)
    Date: 24 Jun 13 - 04:11 PM

    Canada does have a sister operation.
    The Combatting Terrorism Act came into force on May 24. It contains new provisions not in the original act of 2001.

    Canada, New Zealand and UK have agreed to cooperate with NSA.
    ECHELON provides for the interception of private and commercial communications, including satellite trunk communications.

    The Defence Signals Directorate of Australia (have not checked) may be cooperating, as well as the Netherlands SIGINT. In any case, these two nations are intercepting signals.

    Collection and evaluation of signals began officially in 2001


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Q (Frank Staplin)
    Date: 24 Jun 13 - 04:18 PM

    The first post. in the title, called this surveillance operation a scandal.

    I find that allegation scandalous.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Don Firth
    Date: 24 Jun 13 - 06:00 PM

    Songwronger:   "Full remote control of ALL modern U.S. market cars PROVEN."

    Not so!   Alleged by a couple of conspiracy theory web sites, who also claim that the Colorado fires are (for some unexplained reason) a government plot. This follows on the idea that fluoridation is not for the health of your teeth, but to soften your brain to make you easier for the Powers That Be to control. "Chemtrails," the same thing. Government plots EVERYWHERE! Hemorrhoids, bad breath, toenail fungus. . . .

    All together now. To the tune of the Volga Boatman song:
    Par-a-NOI-a (grunt!),
    Par-a-NOI-a (grunt!). . . .
    Good Lord, there are some hate-filled, sick, scared, and gullible people not just populating threads like this, but repeatedly STARTING them as well.

    Nothing better to do, I guess.

    Don Firth


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Jeri
    Date: 24 Jun 13 - 06:48 PM

    Don, you criticize the nutty people for being nutty, but I bet it hasn't escaped anyone's notice that you devote most of your time to talking to them. Where does that place YOU in the "nothing better to do" category? Is it more pathetic to BE the whacko or always bitch about them? What impression do you think you give other people--especially those who never "knew" you before you devoted yourself to trollery? Ah, never mind--you don't care what anyone else thinks.

    ...of course, I think I just volunteered to be part of the idiot brigade, and so should find something "better to do" before I get stuck here like some people.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Bobert
    Date: 24 Jun 13 - 07:42 PM

    Like my daddy used to say: "Different opinions make for a horse race"...

    The fact that Don and I tend to go head-to-head with people with much different views is no accident... I mean, if everyone agreed here guess what???

    This joint would go the way of the hula hoop...

    B~


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Q (Frank Staplin)
    Date: 24 Jun 13 - 08:04 PM

    China, Russia and Ecuador have cocked-a-snook by refusing to extradite the thief.
    Make them pay by imposing tariffs.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Bobert
    Date: 24 Jun 13 - 08:17 PM

    Yup...

    The high school drop=out played hardball, decided that he knew better than the tens of thousands of folks who have put these programs together and thought he had some kind of right, like John C. Calhoun and long time ago, to tell the US government to fuck off...

    This guy messed up... He is no hero... He needs to get busted and be made to watch the twin-towers collapsing every day for the rest of this life...

    Immaturity is no excuse for stupidity...

    B~


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: GUEST,Henry Krinkle aka Niggardly Bastard
    Date: 24 Jun 13 - 08:49 PM

    Should he be waterboarded too, bobette?
    =(:-( o)


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Bobert
    Date: 24 Jun 13 - 08:53 PM

    No, he should be stuck in prison and die there...

    What would waterboarding produce, Krinx??? Nothing...

    B~


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Songwronger
    Date: 24 Jun 13 - 09:12 PM

    "Edward Snowden has been charged with espionage and is being denounced by American politicians and media commentators as a traitor who is spying for the enemy. But to whom is he giving information? To the American people. In the eyes of Snowden's accusers, the enemy is the American people."

    http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2013/06/24/pers-j24.html

    I can understand some foreigner with no understanding of the U.S. constitution endorsing the lawless organization that our government has become, but an American?

    The Fourth Amendment to the constitution says:

    The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

    In order to search (surveil) you need a warrant. A sworn oath that particularly describes what is being sought. That's absolute. It's in our bedrock governing document.

    George W. Bush went insanely criminal with his "warrantless" searches, and then the FISA court setup was adopted. But the FISA warrants don't comply with the constitution, and they are as illegal as Bush's warrantless searches.

    It is amazing to see Americans, faced with the biggest violation of constitutional rights in our nation's history, choose to side with Obama and the other elites and say that NSA surveillance is all right.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Don Firth
    Date: 24 Jun 13 - 09:45 PM

    Jeri, Bobert has it nailed in his post of 24 Jun 13 - 07:42 PM, just following yours.

    There are a lot of truly ridiculous assertions put forth here, and there are those who are naïve enough to believe them and possibly act on them. unless they are refuted by the facts. I don't spend that much time countering these posts, certainly nowhere near as much time as Songwronger and Beardedbruce do in digging them up and posting them (often just cut-and-paste from the conspiracy theory websites), but it IS a pain in the butt.

    I occasionally run into people who seem to believe anything that anyone tells them—such as the woman my wife and I know, a former co-worker of my wife's, who is thoroughly convinced that the hummingbirds moving from flower to flower in the garden outside her apartment window are government drones spying on her (and why in blazes would the government want to spy on her??).

    And I have a relative who listens to Rush Limbaugh religiously and believes every word he says!

    There are enough real problems in the world that people need to deal with without people like blowviators like Mudcat's resident Limbaugh clones, such as Songwronger and his buddies, seeking them out and spreading them around.

    It's a dirty job, but somebody's got to do it.

    Don Firth


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
    Date: 24 Jun 13 - 10:11 PM

    Not so fast..on congratulating yourself..though it doesn't surprise me. You have your opinions, Bobert has similar opinions, as does Songwronger and beardedbruce....though the opinions may differ, it is in the 'debates' that something can be learned...so, may I make a suggestion?...OK.go for it..thank you...When you enter into a 'discussion' make an effort NOT to misquote what the person is say, who you disagree with, and then start arguing, and name calling, based on your misquote....it would save a lot of cyberspace...and try not to start from a political opinion, and work your way down...try getting to the FACTS, and then spread the truth around....or you'll look like a jackass again....and it's only people's politeness that you haven't heard more about it than you already have.
    Now that was a nice, constructive suggestion.

    GfS


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Songwronger
    Date: 24 Jun 13 - 10:16 PM

    I think it's called Stockholm Syndrome, where the kidnapping victim falls in love with the abductor.

    The NSA invasion of privacy is the biggest violation of constitutionally protected rights in our nation's history, but the supporters of this arch crime seem bent on only one thing...keeping Obama's reputation from being sullied. As he walks through the shitty slough of the crime they lick his boots to keep them clean. Yummm. Taste the love.

    Let me repeat a paragraph from the article I referenced earlier:

    "Edward Snowden has been charged with espionage and is being denounced by American politicians and media commentators as a traitor who is spying for the enemy. But to whom is he giving information? To the American people. In the eyes of Snowden's accusers, the enemy is the American people."

    Snowden gave his information to the American people, yet the government, the government-controlled media, and the 47-chromosomed Mudcat supporters of Obama call Snowden a traitor. Did he give his information away to "enemies?" No. He gave it away to the American people. Yet the Obama team charged him with espionage. Hence, they view the American people as the enemy.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
    Date: 24 Jun 13 - 10:16 PM

    Typo on the other one...

    Not so fast..on congratulating yourself..though it doesn't surprise me. You have your opinions, Bobert has similar opinions, as does Songwronger and beardedbruce....though the opinions may differ, it is in the 'debates' that something can be learned...so, may I make a suggestion?...OK.go for it..thank you...When you enter into a 'discussion' make an effort NOT to misquote what the person is saying, whom you disagree with, and then start arguing, and name calling, based on your misquote....it would save a lot of cyberspace...and try not to start from a political opinion, and work your way down...try getting to the FACTS, and then spread the truth around....or you'll look like a jackass again....and it's only people's politeness that you haven't heard more about it than you already have.
    Now that was a nice, constructive suggestion.

    GfS


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Songwronger
    Date: 24 Jun 13 - 10:23 PM

    Darpa's hummingbird drones - video from Jan. 2011


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Don Firth
    Date: 25 Jun 13 - 12:34 AM

    We have a garden outside our apartment window as well, Songwronger.

    And these are hummingbirds. I've seen them up close. No doubts.

    This woman is also tooted up about Google street-view as well, swearing that people are watching her through her windows. I checked it out and because of a couple of trees in the way, you can't see in her windows.

    WHY would anyone want to spy on this woman? No perceivable reason whatsoever. She's about as dangerous as someone who can't keep from bumping into walls.

    And, Songwronger, we who consider your rantings to be nothing but rampant paranoia are all suffering from Stockholm Syndrome?

    You really outdo yourself!

    Don Firth


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: akenaton
    Date: 25 Jun 13 - 04:08 AM

    Don...how can you be so obtuse?

    What SW has illustrated is not a conspiracy theory, but pure and simple fact.
    Our respective governments are covertly collecting huge amounts of data about our private on line relationships and storing them.
    This data can be used for any purpose by any future govt, be it Democrat, Republican, Marxist or Fascist.

    If the reason for this violation is security, why do the authorities not target sectors of the population within which some levels of terrorism might be expected......but I suppose that would be against your "equality" principles.

    The Twin Towers terrorist attack was orchestrated by Islamic fundamentalists.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: GUEST,Henry Krinkle aka Niggardly Bastard
    Date: 25 Jun 13 - 05:40 AM

    Bush and Cheney and Company should die in prison.
    Not Mr. Snowden.
    =(:-( 0)

    (☞゚∀゚)☞


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: GUEST
    Date: 25 Jun 13 - 06:45 AM

    'Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Bobert
    Date: 24 Jun 13 - 08:17 PM'

    That is the single most discouraging post I have ever read on Mudcat.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: GUEST,gillymor
    Date: 25 Jun 13 - 09:56 AM

    Ding Donger writes: "Did he give his information away to "enemies?" No. He gave it away to the American people. Yet the Obama team charged him with espionage. Hence, they view the American people as the enemy."

    The answer to your question is more properly, "Yes, he gave it away to the whole world including al qaeda and Hezzbolla and countless other would be terrorists who may have something in the works. This is the basis for the indictment of Snowden as a traitor." Thus your flimsy little syllogism collapses like a house of cards.

    And Don, you are fighting the good fight.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Q (Frank Staplin)
    Date: 25 Jun 13 - 01:31 PM

    "Gave his information to the American people..."
    An idiot statement.

    This also exposes the information and the methods of collection to the Chinese, North Koreans, Russians and whomever.

    Since the Canadian and UK methods are interwoven by agreement, their collections are included.

    It is not the information on the vast numbers of citizens of countries cooperating in the system with the NSA that is of interest to the NSA and sister agencies, but the doings of those who are using violent methods to damage our nations- that is what the system is set up to identify.

    The Chinese, Russian and probably other security services are gathering the same information to protect their own interests- bombing has taken place in Russia, and I am sure the Chinese are worried about possible terrorist action in their vast and varied country.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Jack the Sailor
    Date: 25 Jun 13 - 01:36 PM

    ha!


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Don Firth
    Date: 25 Jun 13 - 02:10 PM

    Thanks, gillymor!

    =======

    And, no, Ake, I'm not being obtuse. I know perfectly well what's going on. I know that the government is collecting all kinds of personal data about everyone, and I know what the potential dangers are.

    But I am ALSO aware that this information is open to practically anyone and everyone, and has been and is being used by advertisers ever since the beginning of the internet and long before that.

    As it stands now, I'd a helluva lot rather that this information be used by those who are trying to block terrorists from carrying out their nefarious plots that can end up killing a lot of innocent people—including me!—than be used by outfits that bury my morning e-mail in spam or constantly call me on the telephone and try to sell me insurance, change my credit card service to theirs, or contribute to their particular cause.

    These outfits already have this information! It's already out there!

    Ake:   ". . . why do the authorities not target sectors of the population within which some levels of terrorism might be expected……" (and the rest of that sentence is just plain stupid and insulting!).

    Here's a bulletin, Ake: That's exactly why they want the information!

    As far as I'm concerned, I don't have anything I feel I need to hide from the government. Hell, if they want the contents of my e-mail address book or my personal telephone book, I'm perfectly willing to give the information to them!

    Everybody else seems to already have it.

    And if they want to waste the time, money, and manpower to fly hummingbird-size drones outside my apartment windows, well, they aren't going to see a whole lot. A guy sitting there practicing the guitar, reading a book, writing on the computer, making a peanut butter and jelly sandwich. . . .

    All pretty sinister stuff!

    Don Firth


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
    Date: 25 Jun 13 - 02:11 PM

    Q: "Gave his information to the American people..."
    An idiot statement."

    Well, that's gillymor....he has a solid history of idiot statements..
    By the way, "Gave his information to the American people..."

    Did any Americans on here see any of it??

    Akenaton: "This data can be used for any purpose by any future govt, be it Democrat, Republican, Marxist or Fascist."

    I wish the extreme partisan idiots pay attention to what you just posted!..(but you know what they say, "Shitting in one hand or wishing in the other, which do you think will fill up first?").

    Me thinks they are incapable of long range thought...

    GfS


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
    Date: 25 Jun 13 - 02:15 PM

    Don Firth: "As far as I'm concerned, I don't have anything I feel I need to hide from the government. Hell, if they want the contents of my e-mail address book or my personal telephone book, I'm perfectly willing to give the information to them!"

    Naw,..it is an 'intelligence' gathering operation..

    GfS


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Don Firth
    Date: 25 Jun 13 - 02:37 PM

    Then YOU don't have anything to worry about, Goofy.

    Don Firth

    P. S.   I know my Stanford-Binet I.Q. test score, Goofball, and I also know what I scored on the University of Washington entrance exams, so your pathetic jibes just bounce off, like bullets off Superman's chest.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: GUEST,gillymor
    Date: 25 Jun 13 - 02:41 PM

    O Goofted One, I was quoting your ideological cellmate,Ding Donger, but I won't hold it against you. I think it's inspiring that you're even able to read, considering. Perhaps comprehension will come in time. Hang in there, Slugger.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
    Date: 25 Jun 13 - 02:57 PM

    Don Firth: "P. S.   I know my Stanford-Binet I.Q. test score, Goofball, and I also know what I scored on the University of Washington entrance exams.."

    Well as long as you got enough fingers to count it on, i guess it's easy for you to remember..

    GfS


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Don Firth
    Date: 25 Jun 13 - 03:10 PM

    Amusing, Goofball. Stupid and pathetic, but amusing.

    Don Firth

    P. S. By the way, aren't you the one who keeps bitching about people drifting the thread topic? Especially when you're trying to dodge answering a direct question you've been asked?


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
    Date: 25 Jun 13 - 03:24 PM

    Well, you're right!..mark your calender and make a national holiday for it....but nobody answered my last question, either....here, let me go get it.....OK, back..OK..My question was to this comment: "By the way, "Gave his information to the American people..."

    and the question was, "Did any Americans on here see any of it??"

    Now as to answering YOUR questions, sometimes you say I don't answer them, because I didn't see that you asked one..and I'll ask you to re-post them, and you don't..because sometimes I don't see the question...such as....in you very last post, you said, "Especially when you're trying to dodge answering a direct question you've been asked?"

    Now look carefully, .........that is NOT a question...it is a commentary sentence that you just put a question mark after!...

    Oh well, back to counting your on fingers to remember your IQ....assuming your fingers do what your mind tells them to do!

    Here's winkin' at ya'!

    GfS

    P.S....but in agreeing with you..   RE: BS: The NSA Scandal


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Don Firth
    Date: 25 Jun 13 - 03:35 PM

    If I had enough fingers to enumerate my I.Q. score, Goofball, it would make it very awkward to play the guitar. My left hand would be many times wider than the fingerboard is long. Not practical.

    But give me a honking cathedral organ with five or more manuals and several banks of stops and I'd be Hell on Wheels!!

    If you have as many digits as your I.Q. score, well, at least you could still pick your nose. . . .

    Don Firth


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Don Firth
    Date: 25 Jun 13 - 03:40 PM

    Goofy, when you say that you're agreeing with me about the NSA Scandal, I assume that you're agreeing that since everybody already has everybody else's personal information, why shouldn't the Government as well, especially when the idea is to forestall terrorist attacks.

    Don Firth


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: akenaton
    Date: 25 Jun 13 - 05:22 PM

    Don you may not have anything you wish to hide from Mr Obama's administration, but i have been a radical all my life and can think of many types of government which I would oppose strongly and would not wish to have eavsdrop on my personal conversations.

    This covert surveillance by of the population by govenment is Orwellian in concept....and surely unconstitutional.

    We do not have access at the moment to the private conversations of others nor should we have, you call yourselves liberals yet condone government intrusion into the private lives of the whole population without a whimper of protest
    Liberals my arse!...purely enablers for an increasingly Fascist regime.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Don Firth
    Date: 25 Jun 13 - 05:34 PM

    Ake, I didn't say that I LIKE it.

    But it's THERE, and there's not a damned thing I can do about it.

    But as I have said repeatedly on this thread, everybody and his brother's pet chicken ALREADY HAS that information, so what difference does it make?

    None that I can see.

    And that doesn't have anything to do with being a Liberal. It's just a recognition of what already IS.

    Don Firth

    P. S. And by the way:   if I were inclined, I think I can contrive to communicate with others without anyone else knowing what we talked about, or even that the conversation to place. A little ingenuity. . . .


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: number 6
    Date: 25 Jun 13 - 10:40 PM

    the following is from the 1967/68 series the Prisoner ..

    ---------------------------------
    Number Two: Why did you resign?

    The Prisoner: For peace.

    Number Two: For peace?

    The Prisoner: Now let me out.

    Number Two: You resigned for peace?

    The Prisoner: Yes. Let me out.

    Number Two: You're a fool.

    The Prisoner: For peace of mind.

    Number Two: What?

    The Prisoner: For peace of mind!

    Number Two: Why?

    The Prisoner: Because too many people know too much.

    Number Two: Never!

    The Prisoner: I know too much!

    Number Two: Tell me.

    The Prisoner: I know too much about you!
    ---------------------------------------------

    Hmmmmmmm



    biLL


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
    Date: 25 Jun 13 - 11:34 PM

    If you're thinking I'm in agreement with you, well, I scrolled back to find out where..and the only thing I could find was.

    GfS: "P.S....but in agreeing with you..   RE: BS: The NSA Scandal"

    That was in reference to:

    Don Firth: "P. S. By the way, aren't you the one who keeps bitching about people drifting the thread topic?"

    well, if you hang on my every word and nuance, shit, you might learn something...but with all those new found fingers, you can hold your nose, cover your eyes, have a couple left over for your ears and nose, as well...and then you're back to ground zero...listening only to the crap in your own head!....hell, if you keep them there long enough, you might not be typing so much off the wall misinformation....that being said...we really should go back to the topic, as per aforementioned....you and Akenaton are gettin' on a roll.

    RE: BS: The NSA Scandal

    GfS


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: GUEST
    Date: 26 Jun 13 - 03:59 AM

    "Liberals my arse!...purely enablers for an increasingly Fascist regime."

    Ake, for once we agree old friend.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: GUEST
    Date: 26 Jun 13 - 11:40 PM

    Some of the online discussions regarding this situation are more informative and less polemic than this site.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: skarpi
    Date: 27 Jun 13 - 07:33 PM

    I have a wonder , in the news tonight Obama said all internation had to go
    by national law and turn Snowden in ....

    Is Obama going by international laws by spying on the world ??

    I don´t think so , and what right have NSA to spy on me or the Icelandic nation or UK or Norway ...? who asked USA to be a world wide police ? A big brother ?? not me or any one I know .

    So who is going to take Obama to international court and the NSA ?

    just a wonder on a rainy night in the north Atlantic


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Songwronger
    Date: 27 Jun 13 - 10:48 PM

    skarpi is waiting for an answer, people. I think one of you Obama supporters should answer him. Tell him how he has nothing to worry about if he has nothing to hide. Tell him that Obama has the right to kill anyone he wants with drones. Go ahead.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
    Date: 28 Jun 13 - 12:03 AM

    Skarpi: "Is Obama going by international laws by spying on the world ??"

    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
    Date: 24 Jun 13 - 01:58 PM

    Q: "I would feel threatened if the NSA and sister operations here in Canada were restricted."

    Do you really think that Canada needs a sister operation??..More than likely, the NSA has it all covered...Canada too!

    GfS

    P.S. This is only an opinion......an educated one...but, nonetheless, an opinion.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Don Firth
    Date: 28 Jun 13 - 03:41 PM

    Skarpi, the NSA is not "spying on the world."

    In order to prevent any further terrorist attacks such as the "9/11" attacks, when radical Muslim terrorists hijacked airliners and flew them into the World Trade Center buildings in New York, and into the Pentagon, the headquarters of the U.S. Department of Defense, in which two of the tallest buildings in the world were reduced to rubble, and over 3,000 people were killed, the NSA (National Security Agency) is monitoring communications throughout the world, particularly between known or suspected terrorists and terrorist organizations.

    This program was begun before Barack Obama became President of the United States and it has been going on for some time. It has prevented a number of terrorist attacks in which many more thousands of people could have been killed.

    People on this thread such as Songwronger, Beardedbruce, and Guest from Sanity hate President Obama and blame him for anything and everything they can think of. The reason for such hatred is open to speculation, but since Obama is a Liberal president and they seem to favor the Conservative view, naturally they object to anything he does—plus the fact that Obama is a black man, and some people, such as they, become very angry at the thought of a black man in a position of authority. (They will deny it, of course.)

    Rest assured that NSA is NOT listening in on your private telephone conversations or reading your e-mail. If the records they do collect show that you are regularly communicating with known terrorists or terrorist groups, then yes, they would listen in—for good reasons.

    And be aware that the United States is not the only country that is seeking to protect itself and its people from terrorist attacks, as they have every right to do.

    Don Firth


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Songwronger
    Date: 28 Jun 13 - 06:30 PM

    A whole day and no Obama supporter has given skarpi a cogent answer? Pitiful.

    Is Obama going by international laws by spying on the world ??

    No. He is violating international law. He is also violating the laws of the United States. He is a criminal. He has to be stopped. Americans try to stop his lawless behavior, but the courts refuse to hear the cases.

    what right have NSA to spy on me or the Icelandic nation or UK or Norway ...? who asked USA to be a world wide police ?

    The NSA does not have the right. Their actions violate our constitution and our laws. Americans try to stop the lawless behavior, but the courts won't hear the cases. And the bank called Goldman Sachs asked the USA to be the world police. That bank owns the world and needs an army, and the USA is it.

    So who is going to take Obama to international court and the NSA ?

    As I said, the courts in the US will not challenge Obama, so any challenges need to come from international courts. Good luck. Goldman Sachs owns most of them too.

    Obama's cult following has lost touch with reality. They think good is bad and bad is good. Witness Don Firth. He's been completely brainwashed to support whatever the government does. He is a typical Obama supporter.

    And if Obama kills Mr. Snowden with a drone attack in Iceland, Mr. Firth will support the action. He already supports drone murders in the Middle East, so why not in Iceland? Do you see the depth of the insanity we're trying to deal with in the US?


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Don Firth
    Date: 28 Jun 13 - 06:48 PM

    Obviously, Scarpi, Songwronger does not speak for me. His whole intention is to put the President in as bad a light as he can. And at the same time, to denigrate those (such as myself) who don't share his hatred for President Obama.

    Mr. Snowden is NOT going to be killed in a "drone attack" in Iceland or anywhere else. And what Songwronger calls "drone murders" is the killing of enemy (terrorist) combatants in Afghanistan. There have been no such attacks in the United States, nor will there be in Iceland or any other country that is not conducting hostile attacks against the United States.

    ANY country has the right take whatever actions it needs to, to protect itself and its citizens from military or terrorist attacks.

    Don Firth


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: skarpi
    Date: 28 Jun 13 - 07:20 PM

    what ever .....USA is loosing my respect ....:( ...


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Don Firth
    Date: 28 Jun 13 - 07:47 PM

    Don't you believe that a country has the right--the obligation--to keep it's citizens safe from terrorist attacks?

    If Reykjavík had suffered a terrorist attack like New York did in 2001, how would you feel then?

    Don Firth


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Bobert
    Date: 28 Jun 13 - 08:00 PM

    What Don said...

    B~


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
    Date: 28 Jun 13 - 08:23 PM

    Don Firth:"Don't you believe that a country has the right--the obligation--to keep it's citizens safe from terrorist attacks?"

    Bobert: "What Don said..."


    Israel too???

    GfS


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Bobert
    Date: 28 Jun 13 - 08:27 PM

    Sure...

    Everyone has a right to "defend" themselves... The operative word here is "defend"...

    B~


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: GUEST
    Date: 28 Jun 13 - 08:27 PM

    Both of you should reread the following, because NSA hasn't.

    http://constitutionus.com/


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Songwronger
    Date: 28 Jun 13 - 09:14 PM

    Here's some more news about how the federal government is "defending" us:

    JW Obtains Records Detailing Obama Administration's Warrantless Collection of Citizens' Personal Financial Data

    June 27, 2013

    (Washington, DC) – Judicial Watch announced today that it has obtained records from the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau (CFPB) revealing that the agency has spent millions of dollars for the warrantless collection and analysis of Americans' financial transactions. The documents also reveal that CFPB contractors may be required to share the information with "additional government entities."

    •An "indefinite delivery, indefinite quantity" contract with Experian worth up to $8,426,650 to track daily consumer habits of select individuals without their awareness or consent.

    •A stipulation that "The Contractor may be required to share credit card data collected from the Banks with additional government entities as directed by the Contracting Officer's Representative (COR)."

    http://www.judicialwatch.org./press-room/press-releases/jw-obtains-records-detailing-obama-administrations-warrantless-collectio

    How much unconstitutional surveillance are you Obamaniacs going to tolerate?

    Skarpi has a good point about the scope of the NSA's crimes. The orgization is called the NATIONAL Security Agency, so why is it spying overseas? He has a right to be outraged. What's surprising is that more people in the U.S. aren't outraged. Obama and the NSA are pissing on the Fourth Amendment.

    And I set up a perfectly good thread for you to indulge your racist asides, Mr. Firth. Please use it. And please stop calling Obama black. He is mixed race. They taught that in your Obama Indoctrination class.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Don Firth
    Date: 29 Jun 13 - 12:01 AM

    I'm not the racist here, Songwronger.

    And although I am aware that Barack Obama is of mixed race, there are people who maintain that a person who is as little as one-sixteenth black, is "black."

    I regard race as irrelevant.

    Unlike some people here!

    Don Firth


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
    Date: 29 Jun 13 - 12:08 AM

    Don Firth: "I regard race as irrelevant."

    Yeah, probably true!.....He only calls people 'bigots' to divert people's attention away from a topic, and to hide the fact that he is losing an argument so he needs to play on 'so-called' liberal's biases.....the rest is irrelevant!

    GfS


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Don Firth
    Date: 29 Jun 13 - 01:17 AM

    It's always interesting—and quite revealing—to know why certain people seem to be obsessed with a particular subject. Read enough of their stuff and the obsession becomes obvious. And it also becomes obvious how it warps their opinions.

    And by the way, GoofuS, you ARE irrelevant/

    Don Firth


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
    Date: 29 Jun 13 - 03:45 AM

    Don: "And by the way, GoofuS, you ARE irrelevant/"

    Why??..'Bigot' isn't getting you much mileage, anymore??

    GfS


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: GUEST,Yeah fine, I'm crazy.
    Date: 29 Jun 13 - 03:54 AM

    You Don, on the other hand, are fine.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: skarpi
    Date: 29 Jun 13 - 02:13 PM

    so now I am a terrorist ...thanks Don ..thanks a lot .

    now I am a terrorist in two country´s UK and USA ...cool

    never trust an Icelander...he is a terrorist ...


    is this what you want , all the world up against you ..???


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Don Firth
    Date: 29 Jun 13 - 02:34 PM

    Skarpi, I did NOT say you were a terrorist. Don't be silly!

    What I said is that the NSA would not be listening to your phone calls or reading your e=mail unless you were communicating with known terrorists.

    Where did you get the idea that I was accusing you of being a terrorist?

    Don Firth


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
    Date: 29 Jun 13 - 03:09 PM

    Don Firth: "Where did you get the idea that I was accusing you of being a terrorist?"

    Perhaps a terrifying finger-picking style, where he alternates between a wicked D9 aug 5th, and picking his nose, then plays slide, with his tongue, on a cold Icelandic night!

    GfS

    P.S...and doesn't even wipe his strings!..but uses them to floss with.
    Terrifying!!!


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Suzy Sock Puppet
    Date: 29 Jun 13 - 07:45 PM

    Guest, you are funny!

    "It's always interesting—and quite revealing—to know why certain people seem to be obsessed with a particular subject. Read enough of their stuff and the obsession becomes obvious. And it also becomes obvious how it warps their opinions."

    Hmmm. Like the thread about the Woolwich incident? It took exactly four posts for it to become yet another "Those poor innocent law abiding Muslims! We sure hope none of this impacts them!" thread. Always the same people who drag it out forever. And then, after about the two thousandth post, one of the Muslim Defense League says, "This anti-Muslim rant has gone on long enough!" No way. Ya think? Bunch of obsessed crazies

    Okay, so you do realize we are living in a world full of governments who do despicable things, right? That's why in a world where human rights abuses are rampant, the same obsessed group of anti-Semitic bastards go after Israel every chance they get. Those threads are about two thousand posts long as well.

    Now, let's see. If I'm a little obsessed these days over the fact that most of our elected officials are wiping their asses with the Constitution, that's too goddamned bad isn't it?


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Songwronger
    Date: 30 Jun 13 - 05:07 PM

    I can't believe you called skarpi a terrorist, Mr. Firth. Shame, shame, shame.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
    Date: 30 Jun 13 - 05:28 PM

    I think they have become radical extremists, in trying to prove to everyone that they are 'tolerant, loving, open minded, so-called liberals'!

    What a fucking joke!...especially when they tolerate nothing but their VERY closed and blocked minds. The truth is, if we listened to them, and adopted their wonderful brilliant minds, they'd convince us to be like them.... brilliantly ignorant, and too stupid to know it!
    Thank a lot!

    GfS


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
    Date: 30 Jun 13 - 05:56 PM

    ""brilliantly ignorant, and too stupid to know it!
    Thank a lot!
    ""

    No convincing required in your case Goofus, you prove it a dozen times a day by doing the very things you pour scorn upon.

    Don T.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
    Date: 30 Jun 13 - 06:02 PM

    I post, "brilliantly ignorant, and too stupid to know it!
    Thanks a lot!
    ...and look who shows up!

    GfS


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Don Firth
    Date: 30 Jun 13 - 06:19 PM

    Songwronger, I did NOT, at any time, call Skarpi a "terrorist," as you and your sycophants well know.

    Why do you feel compelled to LIE? Is it some neurological condition over which you have no control?

    Don Firth


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: skarpi
    Date: 01 Jul 13 - 01:04 PM

    well Don , you said that US has a right to watch terrorist´s ..well
    if NSA is spying and they did watch us here in Iceland ..then we must be under the terrorist hat ? right ...

    so I ask what on earth does NSA think that us the Icelandic people can do to USA ?? we don´t have army , we have very strong gun rules , and
    even the police don´t walk with guns in their belts ?

    what a hell is wrong with you in the USA . Good people in this world open your eyes and mind ..and stand up against these power greed-ing people
    in US ...its getting to be a paranoia in their mind that all people are doing some thing bad to them ...shjæss....

    how can you all walk the street´s without turning your head in every step you go ...watch out the men in black could be right behind you ...

    I must be a lucky man who has been in this freedom all my live , on this Island ...

    sorry all , I am off ...have a good time all of you :) . I have a live to live , hopefully without NSA .


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Don Firth
    Date: 01 Jul 13 - 01:43 PM

    Skarpi, I doubt very seriously that NSA is doing much spying on Iceland. It is not exactly known as a hotbed of terrorism, whereas many areas of the Middle East most certainly are. And there is the possibility of domestic terrorism right there in the U. S., for example, the bombings at the Boston Marathon.

    You are seriously overreacting to the idea that the NSA is interested in YOUR personal communications.

    ANY country—and that includes Iceland—has the right, indeed, the obligation, to attempt to keep its citizens safe from terrorist attacks.

    If Iceland felt itself in serious danger of being the target of terrorist attacks, would you expect anything less of your government?

    Don Firth


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: beardedbruce
    Date: 01 Jul 13 - 02:03 PM

    Unless, of course, it was a Republican administration- THEY were entirely wrong to do the same things that Obama does.Just look at any threads on the topic before 2008. And the same folks here defending Obama were demanding Bush's impeachment for far less.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
    Date: 01 Jul 13 - 02:04 PM

    Skarpi,

    Don F said that the NSA had a right to watch terrorists.

    He didn't say that they ONLY only watch terrorists, and wrong as it is to spy on friendly nations, it doesn't mean that you are evil, it says more about the evils of the NSA.

    Don T.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Songwronger
    Date: 01 Jul 13 - 07:54 PM

    Is that it, Mr. Firth? Do the men in black have you looking over your shoulder? Or is it men in black helicopters? You support drone bombing in Afghanistan, Yemen, Pakistan and so on, so you would support it in Iceland, yes? You would not "expect anything less of your government," yes? If Obomber sends a drone after Edward Snowden in Iceland, how many civilian deaths would be acceptable to you? As collateral damage, I mean. Is it OK to kill, say, fifty women and children to get Snowden? Twenty-five?


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Bill D
    Date: 01 Jul 13 - 08:12 PM

    "if NSA is spying and they did watch us here in Iceland ..then we must be under the terrorist hat ? right ..."

    No...wrong... that simply breaks the rules of logic as a coherent argument. There is an **equivocation** on the word "watch" in it ...to go along with the equivocation on "spying". "Watch" as a term that means different things in different contexts can't just be tossed into a discussion as if it proves something!

    You MUST realize the sense of word describing what the NSA 'may' be collecting... metadata... which simply means data about phone numbers or email contacts (not their content)which 'may' come from or go to a suspected terrorist. Then....*IF* a series of suspicious calls or contacts is noted, there can be a *court order* obtained to monitor the content.
    The USA doesn't have enough NSA or FBI agents anywhere to 'spy' on people in Iceland... much less 40-50 other countries. We are talking hundreds of millions of calls, emails..etc. They are looking for METADATA... which 'may' lead them to a reason to 'spy' on a dozen suspicious links.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Don Firth
    Date: 01 Jul 13 - 08:36 PM

    Songwronger, for Crissake, go take a long walk off a short pier!

    Your getting silly and tiresome!

    Don Firth


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: McGrath of Harlow
    Date: 01 Jul 13 - 08:58 PM

    The USA doesn't have enough NSA or FBI agents anywhere to 'spy' on people in Iceland... much less 40-50 other countries

    True enough - but the logic of that in the modern world is to set up the machines to do it, which ultimately involves giving them the job of making the decisions, and determining how deep to dig into the metadata. It's the logic underlying drones. It's the logic of the Terminator scenario.

    I remember reading 1984 and thinking the image of Big Brother is watching was a powerful one, but of course it would never be possible to have a watching eye judging everything ordinary people did, because of the sheer scale of the operation, and the number of watchers who would be needed. How wrong I was.   

    The degree of surveillance is not limited by the technology, but only by decisions made to refrain from doing things that can be done - and the built-in instinct of security agencies is always liable to be to go for more surveillance.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Songwronger
    Date: 01 Jul 13 - 09:02 PM

    Should we use daisy cutters on Iceland, Mr. Firth? What if the "metadata" shows that 1 in 100 in that country "may" be talking to "someone" with "possible" ties to an "alleged" terrorist organization? Should we then upgrade to nukes?


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Don Firth
    Date: 01 Jul 13 - 10:00 PM

    Songwronger, your desperation is showing.

    You're right up there with Goofballupagus.

    Don Firth


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Bobert
    Date: 01 Jul 13 - 10:07 PM

    If it gets to 1 in a 100 then we'll be the next Egypt... That would put 3,000,000 in the streets...

    That's okay with me, mind you...

    "It was a new day yesterday
    it's an old day now"          (Jethro Tull)

    B~


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Songwronger
    Date: 01 Jul 13 - 10:34 PM

    I'm not the desperate one, Mr. Firth. Skarpi had it pegged correctly when he talked about you watching for the men in black. Your paranoia has led you to support a surveillance police state. And what, exactly, do you think your "enemies" are so keen to take from you, anyway? Your freedoms? Is that why you're so willing to give up your freedoms, to protect your freedoms?


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Don Firth
    Date: 01 Jul 13 - 11:05 PM

    MY paranoia!!??

    I think psychiatrists call that "projection."

    Don Firth


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Don Firth
    Date: 02 Jul 13 - 01:21 AM

    Read the post up-thread by GUEST, guest at 11 Jun 13 - 07:25 PM, then read my post that immediately follows.

    When people such as Beardedbruce stop scaremongering and others get tired of running around like headless chickens, try THIS: Spend some time on, say, Amazon, and look for a particular product or book. Or visit a political thread. Or almost ANY web site where they are trying to sell you stuff (including ideas).

    Then—Notice the ADS that start appearing on the usual spots here on Mudcat. Or the pop-up ads on just about any web site you visit.

    Then—Pay attention to the unsolicited telephone calls you get where someone is trying to sell you something.

    As pointed out, businesses and advertisers and political parties have been collecting information on your communication habits for a long time.

    All this information is already out there, being gathered, and used to profile you, especially your interests and buying habits, and it is being used to try to sell you stuff.

    The genii is out of the bottle and has been for a long time.

    Don Firth

    P. S. By the way, this is an international phenomenon. Some time back I browse a couple of web sites in the U.K., looking at a particular lute-like musical instrument, and then bought a couple of song books from another British web site.

    I'm still getting e-mails from the web sites I visited, and pop-up ads now and then that obviously come from other places in the British Isles interested in selling me similar goods.

    The NSA is not going to take any interest in me unless I start communicating with known or suspected terrorists.

    And NO, I don't like the idea that people are gathering information about me--but unless I live in a cave and communicate with no one, there is nothing I can do to prevent it.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Don Firth
    Date: 02 Jul 13 - 01:56 AM

    Oh! By the way.

    The only "men in black" I have ever encountered have been either at the opera or at symphony concerts. They're wearing tuxedoes.

    Or the time I sang a concert at St. Martin's College south of Seattle. The college was run by Benedictine monks.

    . . . very sinister. . . .

    Don Firth


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: skarpi
    Date: 02 Jul 13 - 03:15 AM

    Dear Don , yes NSA did spy on some people here in Iceland we know that know , and yes people of Iceland would like to have Snowden here in Iceland , why not thank you Snowden to tell the world about NSA doing bad job .

    Wikileaks yes they are here also and thanks to them a lot of things have come up and out to us the people of the world , Don we don´t have army and maybe we don´t understand the need to spy , well spy on terrorist´s that you know are terrorist , but common people , why spy on them ? like NSA did here in Reykjavík , and just so you know the FBI stopped by in Reykjavík and arrested one young man and took him away, it was in our new s as well it got all the way to our Alþingi-(parlament) , No one asked you in the USA to be a World police Big Brother ..


    The End is near for America the disclosure in near .

    well Don , just so you know I am not angry at you , I am angry at your
    Government , and now the EU is angry at them as well :) . just be thankful you don´t yet have the same problem as in Egypt .
    well that s all for this morning . kv Skarpi


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: GUEST,SJL
    Date: 02 Jul 13 - 07:21 AM

    I'm with you skarpi. People trying to sell you things is a lot different than the government collecting your data for a rainy day.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: GUEST,SJL
    Date: 02 Jul 13 - 08:27 AM

    Very Interesting


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: GUEST
    Date: 02 Jul 13 - 08:59 AM

    SJL: Your link doesn't work.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: GUEST,SJL
    Date: 02 Jul 13 - 09:24 AM

    Ok. Try it this way:

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/we-never-hand-anyone-over-says-vladimir-putin-as-edward-snowden-asks-for-asylum-8682507.html


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
    Date: 02 Jul 13 - 11:54 AM

    Try this

    gfS


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: Suzy Sock Puppet
    Date: 02 Jul 13 - 05:47 PM

    Stick a fork in Edward Snowden because he is so done. It makes me sad for a couple of different reasons, least of which would be his personal dilemma.

    Looks like we are stuck with government secrecy and spying. No point in even talking about it anymore. It will come back to bite...


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: GUEST
    Date: 02 Jul 13 - 11:56 PM

    Indeed.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: GUEST
    Date: 03 Jul 13 - 12:00 AM

    That guy has to have the hugest ego.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal
    From: GUEST
    Date: 03 Jul 13 - 05:55 AM

    Ego? Are you referring to Mr. Snowden? Not sure about that. There are a lot of people in this world who yearn to make a stand, make a difference- but who are also justifiably terrified than an oppressive government will put them in prison for life. Generation X have no taste for martyrdom. They are not Nelson Mandela.

    Someone was saying in another thread, I think it was Grishka, that there is a distinction to be made between governments and people. All the world's governments have sided with one another against Snowden. The elite of the world will pack up to look out for their mutual interests - money, power. Their consensus represents their interests, not ours. Accordingly, they will make certain that any upstart who publicly denounces government secrecy and spying and backs it up with exposure is debilitated and disgraced. Easily done when so few are willing to challenge.

    Yet Snowden has many many supporters (and many who did initially but then quickly abandoned him when the going got tough) who are now watching helplessly as his ship goes town. And the lesson to be taken away is that if you defy the United States, there is literally nowhere you can seek asylum. This knowledge is one more nail in the coffin.


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    Subject: BS: Whistleblower Snowden
    From: GUEST,Tunesmith
    Date: 03 Jul 13 - 03:45 PM

    I'm surprised that this case hasn't been raised here before ( or has it? )
    What sort of press is this story getting in the States.
    An article in today's UK's Guardian newspaper (see below) contains a blistering attack on the treatment of Snowden by America ... and Europe!
    What do we think?

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jul/03/america-persecution-whistleblowers-constitution


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    Subject: RE: BS: Whistleblower Snowden
    From: GUEST,Musket sans whistle
    Date: 03 Jul 13 - 03:58 PM

    Not sure that "we" have a view.

    My view however is two fold.

    1. Obama returned the other day from South Africa praising Mandela and Co for pointing out the issues with apartheid government.

    2. He is hell bent on getting his hands on his own commentators of American double standards.

    3. Finding out that governments spy on each other and being shocked is similar to finding out Santa Claus was your dad after all.

    Make that three fold in case my "friends" find the thread and point out my technical fault.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: Mrrzy
    Date: 03 Jul 13 - 04:25 PM

    Hero or goat?

    I say hero, especially what with the spying not only on all of us but on the EU and UN too.

    If goat, actual traitor or just contract-breaker?


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: GUEST
    Date: 03 Jul 13 - 04:44 PM

    >>>Ego? Are you referring to Mr. Snowden?<<<

    Yes.

    >>>Not sure about that.<<<

    It takes an enormous ego to do what he's doing. Every time he opens his mouth, he proves it.

    >>>There are a lot of people in this world who yearn to make a stand, make a difference- but who are also justifiably terrified than an oppressive government will put them in prison for life. Generation X have no taste for martyrdom. They are not Nelson Mandela.<<<

    And neither is Snowden, for crissakes.

    >>>Someone was saying in another thread, I think it was Grishka, that there is a distinction to be made between governments and people. All the world's governments have sided with one another against Snowden. The elite of the world will pack up to look out for their mutual interests - money, power. Their consensus represents their interests, not ours. Accordingly, they will make certain that any upstart who publicly denounces government secrecy and spying and backs it up with exposure is debilitated and disgraced. Easily done when so few are willing to challenge.

    Yet Snowden has many many supporters (and many who did initially but then quickly abandoned him when the going got tough) who are now watching helplessly as his ship goes town. And the lesson to be taken away is that if you defy the United States, there is literally nowhere you can seek asylum. This knowledge is one more nail in the coffin.<<<

    And how much crow will you be eating if it turns out that Snowden is some rightwing conservative think tank's agent provocateur? His story is so fishy it's sprouting gills and scales. A high school dropout hired as a security guard suddenly gets promoted as an analyst who, in only three months with a low-level security clearance, has amassed 4 laptops worth of secret intelligence on our secret intelligence at which point he suddenly decides to reveal it and just walks out of HQ with this stuff in hand? And his girlfriend is straight out of a far right conservative's book on how to stereotype a lefty liberal--a pole dancer who writes like Carlos Castenada on acid. I'm going to wait a LONG while before I decide to throw my lot in with this kook.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: GUEST,SJL
    Date: 03 Jul 13 - 09:27 PM

    "We won't be scrambling jets to get to a 29 year old hacker."

    Really? Liar, liar pants on fire! As usual...

    Look at this!

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-23160309


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: Bobert
    Date: 03 Jul 13 - 09:40 PM

    Eddie has messed his pants bad here...

    He had other options... Lots... He ignored them because he wanted to be famous...

    Now he is...

    Too bad, Eddie...

    B~


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
    Date: 03 Jul 13 - 10:16 PM

    Bobert: "He had other options... Lots... He ignored them because he wanted to be famous..."

    Oh?..He told you that when you spoke to him last?

    GfS


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: number 6
    Date: 03 Jul 13 - 10:28 PM

    Very interesting ...
       
       The NSA comes recruiting

    biLL


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: Songwronger
    Date: 03 Jul 13 - 11:44 PM

    Amid a growing diplomatic storm, the Bolivian president, Evo Morales, has been allowed to fly out of Vienna, but only after a 12-hour interruption during which his plane was stopped and searched for the whistleblower Edward Snowden.

    South American leaders have reacted with fury to the forced diversion of the plane, which was on its way back from Moscow where Morales had been attending talks on energy issues.

    Bolivian officials accused France, Portugal, Spain and Italy of withdrawing permission for the plane to pass through their airspace, prompting the unscheduled stop in Vienna.

    Bolivia's ambassador to the UN, Sacha Llorenti, said Austria's decision to search the aircraft was an act of aggression and a violation of international law, according to Reuters.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jul/03/bolivian-president-evo-morales-austria-plane

    Snowden is the new bin Laden, or Where's Waldo? The massive crimes of the NSA aren't being discussed, just Where's Snowden? Bait and switch.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: GUEST
    Date: 04 Jul 13 - 07:24 AM

    Lotsa shit got left in the dirt. The regulars don't discuss how much Obama follows Bush's policies. New boss same as the old boss.

    "Oh we're meeting at the courthouse at eight o'clock tonight
    You just come in the door and take the first turn to the right
    Be careful when you get there, we'd hate to be bereft
    But we're taking down the names of everybody turning left"


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: number 6
    Date: 04 Jul 13 - 07:50 AM

    Good one Guest !

    biLL


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: GUEST
    Date: 04 Jul 13 - 08:14 AM

    Good to see you, biLL. And not one word from Harper.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: number 6
    Date: 04 Jul 13 - 08:16 AM

    Guest ... Harper and the Americanization of Canada

    biLL   ;)


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: GUEST
    Date: 04 Jul 13 - 09:02 AM

    Ain't that the truth.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: GUEST
    Date: 04 Jul 13 - 10:00 AM

    Come on. I want an answer to my question. I'll state it again:

    "And how much crow will you be eating if it turns out that Snowden is some rightwing conservative think tank's agent provocateur?"

    In fact, I'll rephrase it: "And how much crow will you be eating WHEN it turns out that Snowden is some rightwing conservative think tank's agent provocateur?"

    Don't tell me--you KNEW it all along!! They didn't fool you!


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: GUEST,SJL
    Date: 04 Jul 13 - 05:28 PM

    Bolivia caved today. This is like the Twilight Zone.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
    Date: 04 Jul 13 - 05:50 PM

    Guest (who still won't post his NSA name): "And how much crow will you be eating if it turns out that Snowden is some rightwing conservative think tank's agent provocateur?"
    In fact, I'll rephrase it: "And how much crow will you be eating WHEN it turns out that Snowden is some rightwing conservative think tank's agent provocateur?"

    Or maybe we're hoping the other countries WILL download his laptops into their systems!!....Who knows?..The possibilities are wide open.

    GfS


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: number 6
    Date: 05 Jul 13 - 10:06 PM

    Good news

    Venezuela and Nicaragua

    biLL


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: Songwronger
    Date: 05 Jul 13 - 10:41 PM

    The government-controlled media in the U.S. is demonizing Snowden and turning the incident into something akin to the hunt for bin Laden.

    This is intentional, being done to divert attention from two things:

    1) Snowden simply carried out his oath to protect and defend the U.S. constitution when he blew the whistle. He saw the constitution being violated and acted to protect it.

    2) The NSA broke the law, not Snowden. But the media is not discussing the NSA's lawless behavior.

    As long as the story is about Edward Snowden, the government will not have to answer for its criminal behavior.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: Songwronger
    Date: 05 Jul 13 - 10:44 PM

    An open letter from Ed Snowden's father


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: Songwronger
    Date: 05 Jul 13 - 10:50 PM

    I just noticed something....

    When I began this thread, I called it "The NSA Scandal." Now it's called "The NSA Scandal/Snowden."

    This is an example of shifting focus from the worst crime against the U.S. constitution in our HISTORY, to the plight of one man. See how that works?

    Whichever moderator is responsible for the name change should be ashamed. Why would you act to mitigate the crimes of the NSA? What could you possibly hope to gain from that? Pathetic.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: GUEST
    Date: 06 Jul 13 - 02:24 AM

    Just follow the script.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: GUEST
    Date: 06 Jul 13 - 02:28 AM

    "Doublethink means the power of holding two contradictory beliefs in one's mind simultaneously, and accepting both of them."

    George Orwell, 1984


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: GUEST
    Date: 06 Jul 13 - 03:08 AM

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jul/05/edward-snowden-nsa-whistleblower-spy


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: number 6
    Date: 06 Jul 13 - 08:07 AM

    GUEST ... that article from the Guardian says it all ... thanks for sharing it.

    biLL


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: GUEST,SJL
    Date: 06 Jul 13 - 01:12 PM

    It does. And things are looking up for Mr. Snowden.

    I feel so much better now. Something had to give.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: GUEST,SJL
    Date: 06 Jul 13 - 01:44 PM

    Insulting the prez of Bolivia. Wow. What's our next brilliant move? I can't believe they did that.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: skarpi
    Date: 06 Jul 13 - 02:07 PM

    well Snowden asked for citizen right here in Iceland ....
    but my Government is a BIG CHICKEN .... and no for now anyway ...

    CHICKEN CHICKEN CHICKEN CHICKEN CHICKEN .....


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: Don Firth
    Date: 06 Jul 13 - 03:28 PM

    Musket:   "Finding out that governments spy on each other and being shocked is similar to finding out Santa Claus was your dad after all."

    Right!

    This whole thing is a tempest in a chamber pot. Where in blazes have you people been during—at LEAST—the past sixty years? The United States had an organization during World War II called the "Office of Strategic Services" (OSS). Great Britain, and for that matter, Germany and Japan had their equivalent organizations, the purpose of which was to find out what the other guys were up to.

    The U. S. and Great Britain were allies of the Soviet Union during the latter part of World War II, but when that relationship went pear-shaped and the "Cold War" began, the OSS morphed into the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA), Britain had its equivalent spook organization, as did the Soviet Union, again, to poke around and try to find out what the other guys were up to.

    And at the same time, there was plenty of domestic spying going on. Following a concert here in 1954 by Pete Seeger, the recently formed Pacific Northwest Folklore Society folded up because it suddenly became a focus of interest of the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) and many people on the organization's mailing list panicked and had their names withdrawn. I, myself, was visited by a couple of men in grey suits and red neckties, wanting to know who was where and when.

    The Pacific Northwest Folklore Society was reorganized a few years ago and so far, no one has accused the organization of any kind of political taint.

    But for those who are shocked and surprised by the idea that governments spy on each other, novelists like John Le Carré (Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy; The Spy Who Came in from the Cold; Smiley's People; many others), Ian Fleming (Casino Royal, From Russia with Love, On Her Majesty's Secret Service, many others), (Len Deighton (The Ipcress File, Funeral in Berlin), many novels by Graham Greene, Robert Ludlum, Tom Clancy, Frederick Forsythe. . . .

    Not to mention the huge number of very popular movies based on these novels.

    These novels and movies might have been fictional, but the kind of activity that they were based on was actually going on!!

    AND IT STILL IS!

    Get real, folks!!

    Ed Snowden's big crime is that he upped and blabbed about something that everybody knows is going on, but nobody wants to talk about!

    Don Firth


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: Bobert
    Date: 06 Jul 13 - 03:48 PM

    "Nullification" has been around a long, long time... John C. Calhoun quit the vice presidency over it... He felt that anything that the federal government did could be ignored by anyone who didn't like it...

    This was supposed to have been decided 20 years before his quitting with the case of Marbury v. Madison in which the Supreme Court pretty much said that federal law was the law of the land and not a menu from which to pick and chose...

    Whistle blowing can be done responsibly and irresponsibly... Snowden picked the later and now Eddie is finding that his future ain't going to be so bright after all... I mean, he may be a hero for a while in Venezuela but they ain't going to let him freeload off them and when he goes to work he's going to find that the standard of living that he is accustomed to is going to be out of reach...

    BTW, do you think that Venezuela is going to let Eddie near their secrets??? Hahaha...

    B~


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: Greg F.
    Date: 06 Jul 13 - 04:09 PM

    "Nullification" has been around a long, long time You bet, Bobert - & its alive and well in Texas today.

    And it was the same nullification BS that brought on the (Un)Civil War.

    Calhoun was an asshole of the first water.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: McGrath of Harlow
    Date: 06 Jul 13 - 08:41 PM

    "Responsible" whistleblowing is only possible if the people on whom you blow the whistle aren't in a position you lock you up and silence you.

    You couldn't 'responsibly' blow the whistle on the Stasi in East Germany. And basically that's what we've got today with the National Security Administration and it's overseas franchises.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: GUEST
    Date: 06 Jul 13 - 08:44 PM

    The problem with being Snowden is where do you go now where everybody in the world doesn't know who you are? And all these people regarding him as a hero are just phantoms. They stand on the sidelines and cheer him on but like hell if they're going to get their hands dirty for him. "After all, it was his choice to reveal his country's legal surveillance operations to the world. I mean, he's a great hero for doing that but like hell if I'm going to stick my neck out for him. Poor Eddy, I hope he gets asylum soon, so anyway what's on the tube tonight? Oh, THE VOICE! My favorite!" That's what all this hero worship is doing for him--nothing. They'll lick his ass in print but they won't lift a finger for him in the real world. they're loving this soap opera too much to really give a shit how it turns out. I think deep down beyond those anything-not-American-is-politically-correct and/or I-hate-all-things-Obama filters they have vetting what info they allow into their brains, I think they all know perfectly this guy is a flaming idiot. There is no way they'd ever do what he did. Why? "Because I'm not stupid! Er---I mean, because I'm not that brave!"

    And those hero-worshipers that are not American would be properly infuriated if one of their countrymen revealed a legal surveillance program which could result in a bombing or other terrorist act succeeding within their borders. They'd be screaming, "Bloody fucking traitor!" at this asshole.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: McGrath of Harlow
    Date: 06 Jul 13 - 09:20 PM

    I'm sure the NSA would know the identify of anonymous GUEST there, so why not share it with us, or at least adopt a pseudonym so as to avoid being confused with other equally confused GUESTS?

    In another thread I suggested that one way to get to a country ready to provide refuge for Mr Snowden might be to travel by a ship guaranteed not to call in on any countries prepared to cooperate with the US government in it's pursuit of a whistleblower. However though boarding such a ship in international waters would be an act of piracy it might be foolish to assume the US government would necessarily be deterred by that consideration.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: Mrrzy
    Date: 06 Jul 13 - 09:56 PM

    Still trying to figure -hero or goat...


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
    Date: 06 Jul 13 - 09:59 PM

    McGrath of Harlow: "I'm sure the NSA would know the identify of anonymous GUEST there, so why not share it with us, or at least adopt a pseudonym so as to avoid being confused with other equally confused GUESTS?"

    Yeah, Bruce..Go ahead...it's cool!

    GfS


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: Songwronger
    Date: 07 Jul 13 - 10:08 PM

    Demonstrations held against NSA spying, persecution of Snowden

    Demonstrations were held in over 100 cities throughout the United States on Thursday in opposition to the illegal and unconstitutional spying programs revealed by whistleblower Edward Snowden.

    The "Restore the Fourth" movement, which began on the aggregator site Reddit and describes itself as a "non-partisan, non-violent movement," organized demonstrations on July Fourth, US Independence Day, in New York, Los Angeles, San Francisco, Chicago, Boston, Seattle, Memphis, Miami, and many other cities.

    The movement takes its name from the Fourth Amendment, which upholds the right of citizens to be free from "unreasonable searches and seizures" of their "persons, houses, papers, and effects," without the issuing of a specific warrant based upon probable cause.

    In New York City, several hundred people participated in the protest. As is now usual for any protest of any size in New York City, the marchers were trailed by New York City Police Department (NYPD) vans and motorcycles as well as officers with bundles of plastic handcuffs.

    Many carried signs calling for a halt to NSA spying on the American people. Some carried hand-made signs that read "This is 2013 not 1984" and "Stop spying on us. Protect whistleblowers!" Others associated the abridgment of Fourth Amendment rights by the Obama Administration with the NYPD's aggressive stop-and-frisk program, in which hundreds thousands of largely minority youth are searched without cause by police each year....

    http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2013/07/06/four-j06.html


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: Bobert
    Date: 07 Jul 13 - 10:26 PM

    Snowden is a nihilistic, egotistical punk who deserves life in prison... Hope he likes his life in Venezuela...

    Federalism ain't a new concept... Goes back to Marbury v. Madison... That's been over 200 years...

    What that means is that, unlike the thoughts of John C. Calhoun, VP under Andrew Jackson, federal law super-succeeds states and 29 year old high school drop out wackos from thinking they have some right to commit treason???

    Beam me up, Scotty... Wacko Nation is taking over...

    B~


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: Songwronger
    Date: 07 Jul 13 - 11:38 PM

    Snowden committed no crime. He upheld his oath to the constitution. He blew the whistle on criminals.

    And parse Marbury v Madison all you want, but the bottom line in the ruling is that a law which violates the constitution is void. Obama's bogus FISA courts, which are used to grant power to the NSA to violate the Fourth Amendment, are illegal institutions.

    If you hate the U.S. constitution so much, why don't you move to a country with one more in line with your totalitarian inclinations?

    And why do you harp on Snowden's youth and lack of higher education? I guess you can't honestly fault what he did, so you try to fault him. Drummer boy. lol. I think you have a kind of penis envy. You got loaded and stumbled down to bang your drum in the Occupy the O-zone fiasco, where thousands were milled around in circles and defused by the Obama machine, and now one man, on his own, has managed to create fundamental shifts in the world's thinking. Must be frustrating, in a dick-sizing sort of way.

    I think there's a possibility that Snowden is still an operative carrying out a mission, because of the global ramifications we're now seeing, but I'm glad he did what he did. At least now we're more informed about the extent of the NSA's spying. On the downside, he didn't reveal anything of real value, and the story pushed Obama's other scandals aside.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: GUEST
    Date: 08 Jul 13 - 07:18 PM

    The whole notion that Snowden was not too bright in downloading NSA documents and handing them over to the Guardian, and the idea that he fled to Hong Kong rather than stay and "face the music" misses the broader view.

    It may have been a shrewd calculation on Snowden's part that he stole fairly inocuous NSA documents: 1) to lessen the charges that would inevitably be levied against him (really heavy stuff could've gotten him the charge of treason), and 2) to quickly shift the focus away from him and on to the broader discussion of the way the NSA operates, and is it something we want to address. He achieved both these objectives. After all, he exposed practices the NSA was engaged in that people already knew was happening. So that anything having to do with the "personal" side of his story or what he did, after a while, would likely generate a disinterested yawn.

    And then the discussion would move on to the way the NSA operates. A secret court? How many "average" people knew about FISA before the Snowden story broke? A court that recently was described as a "parallel Supreme Court." A secret court that issues secret decrees for secret things the secret agency (remember, NSA stands for "No Such Agency" and "Never Say Anything") seeks to "investigate," secretly. And if some of those decrees might be considered "questionable," or the results of the actions taken by the NSA based on those decrees turn out to be less than "optimum?" No worries, it's all secret, no one can talk about it; no one of any importance - much less the American people (who are the most important element in this scenario) - can know because it's all classified. And besides, the outcomes, however positive or negative, can all be blanketed or explained away with the phrase "in the interest of national security." And that makes it all okay (and legal, i.e not subject to prosecution). And ultimately, it never happened (not officially). Being able to disavow that an event occurred because of security classification or national security interest gives the NSA power way beyond the scope of the law.

    Snowden was probably influenced and appalled by PFC Bradley Manning's leak of the video that showed the targeting and killing of Iraqi civilians, two of which later turned out to be Reuters employees. Without that video being brought to the public eye, we may never have known this instance - probably not an isolated event - of what Julian Assange later coined, "collateral murder."   

    Snowden probably calculated that after the sexy James Bond-like intrigue of his actions died down, the focus would turn to the NSA, which it has. It wasn't his ego, or a desire to be in the limelight that motivated him. Not a "hey look at me," but a "hey look at this!" It was a genuine concern about the actions of an agency created specifically to operate "under the radar" at all times that motivated him. If his ego had been involved, he could've turned a blind eye and kept his cushy $200,00 a year job to buy a Jaguar and flashy Armani suits to impress his girlfriend. Instead, he sacrificed a lucrative career and a country to live in to bring national attention to (and a discussion of) the way this spook-y agency operates. He is a patriot. The stuff he leaked to the Guardian wasn't anything. Wonder what he really knows?

    As far as fleeing the country: after he decided to leak the NSA documents and given the "classified ops" nature of the agency he was contracted to, he would be in fear for his life. He could've been labeled an "enemy combatant," "domestic terrorist," or any number of convenient labels in order to do away with writ of habeas corpus to lock him away forever in solitary confinement without charges or a trial, or be the subject of a drone attack, or the victim of a mysterious "suicide" like journalist Danny Casolaro when he got just a little too close to the nature of the operations of clandestine agencies. Hong Kong was probably not his first choice, but could've simply been the first convenient international flight from the airport. In any event, his chances of living to fight another day were probably increased dramatically by leaving the USA.

    For a high school dropout, he planned all this pretty well. Not to mention being able to teach himself the myriad intricacies of computer systems as well as developing a conscience along the way. He's a pretty smart dude.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: McGrath of Harlow
    Date: 08 Jul 13 - 10:55 PM

    Sometimes people who reveal government secrets can lay themselves open to the accusation that they have put the lives of spies employed by their government at risk.

    But that doesn't apply in the case of Snowden. He has revealed activities carried out by a government agancy which would appear to be in breach of the US Constitution and of the laws of friendly countries.

    And for that he faces Draconian punishment, if the US government can lay their hands on him, and hysterical attacks such as that Bobert just made.

    I note that even in the US only a minority of people think what he did was wrong, with almost as large a minority thinking he was right, and about one in three undecided. Elsewhere it seems evident support for his actions is a lot higher.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: GUEST
    Date: 09 Jul 13 - 02:41 AM

    All Snowden really did was offer tangible evidence of the surveillance we were all aware of on some level. He let us know that there are formal policies in place that have been kept secret from us (for our protection of course). I don't think he even has information that could or would harm national security. His objective, in my view, was strictly to inform on the government's spying. I'm pretty sure that all of his "top secret" info and further disclosures relate exclusively to that.

    On the other hand, if he is an operative and this whole thing is a psy op, then the objective is obviously to gauge the public's reaction and then to further acclimate them to the idea that it's ok for the United States government to spy on its citizens. Public protest is losing its effectiveness. One reason is that the media downplays any cause not endorsed buy the elite. Another reason is police brutality. If the media ignores you anyway, there's no point in facing off with riot police.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: GUEST,CS
    Date: 09 Jul 13 - 03:40 PM

    This interview by Glenn Greenwald, is worth watching. Snowdon makes a lot of sense.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jul/08/edward-snowden-surveillance-excess-interview?commentpage=1


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: GUEST
    Date: 09 Jul 13 - 09:37 PM

    Here are two interesting links:

    http://m.guardiannews.com/world/2013/jun/21/privacy-civil-liberties-obama-secret

    http://m.guardiannews.com/law/2013/jul/09/fisa-courts-judge-nsa-surveillance

    Co-opting.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: GUEST,CS
    Date: 10 Jul 13 - 04:49 AM

    I liked this piece in Salon (I also really like Salon) which highlights the emptiness of "news" commentators busy directing their attention and vitriol at Snowden's personality, rather than at the the governmental crimes that he exposed. Rather like some of the comments here.

    "And so a man who's spent 44 years appearing on television for a living uses the minute allotted on the program he hosts for him to share his self-evidently important thoughts on world events to accuse someone else of narcissism. Though the key word isn't "narcissistic," of course, it's "young." This is Schieffer's argument: In his day people who opposed the government did so correctly...
    It's apparent that Snowden is an alien to them, and they can understand him only in terms of idiotic newsweekly Generation Gap nonsense. He is a millennial, he is selfish and lazy and narcissistic. It's just privileged old men projecting their hatred and resentment of a younger generation onto a convenient representative. .. Schieffer thinks Snowden is a "narcissist" because, you know, the kids today, they're all narcissists ... We actually don't know shit about Edward Snowden's inner life.
    If you want to watch the opposite of Schieffer's "destruction" of Snowden the narcissistic twerp, USA Today gathered three experienced intelligence professionals — all former NSA officials who also saw abuses and eventually went public with them — to see what they thought of Snowden. All three agreed that Snowden performed a public service. All agreed that he did the right thing.
    they all did what Schieffer wanted Snowden to do: They made their complaints internally, according to what is supposed to be the proper procedures. And all were ignored, marginalized or punished for doing so. The proper procedures didn't work.
    That's the news here, and that's what we're supposed to be debating: not whether this guy is a self-important asshole, but what he told us about how our government is acting and whether the safeguards in place supposedly to prevent abuse are functioning at all.

    http://www.salon.com/2013/06/17/schieffer_on_snowden_this_kid_is_a_jerk_because_dr_king_and_911/


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: GUEST,CS
    Date: 10 Jul 13 - 04:55 AM

    Here's one of the videos linked to in that Salon article.

    Three NSA Veterans Support Whistleblowing: Snowdon Did The Right Thing


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: GUEST
    Date: 10 Jul 13 - 02:36 PM

    Good links - good stuff, thank you.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: GUEST,CS
    Date: 10 Jul 13 - 03:44 PM

    You're welcome GUEST! Any chance you'd be willing to adopt a passing Mudcat pseudonym so we can tell which guest comments belong to which guest?

    As an aside, this incident has me thinking democracy and liberty are utterly dead in the water in the States (some posters have been arguing the case for years of course), as it seems no-one barring the far right actually wants to champion such outdated notions anymore over there! I hope the future of the liberal left in the UK isn't so determinedly "roll over and feel free to sniff my arse" yet...


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: GUEST,Lynx
    Date: 10 Jul 13 - 09:12 PM

    Original news source, Germany (Eng):

    http://m.spiegel.de/international/world/a-910006.html


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: Bobert
    Date: 10 Jul 13 - 09:32 PM

    There were other ways other than the egotistical manner that Snowden picked...

    He had reasonable options... He picked the one that would make him a rock star to some... A traitor to others...

    It was immature and not all that genius...

    B~


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: GUEST
    Date: 10 Jul 13 - 10:41 PM

    Yeah. He could have written to his house representative or his senators or even the president, right?


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
    Date: 11 Jul 13 - 12:50 PM

    If he wanted to enter the World Championship underwater breathing contest, he could.

    In his place, what would you have done Bobz.

    Don T.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: Bobert
    Date: 11 Jul 13 - 01:30 PM

    First of all, I wasn't shocked at what our intelligence people were/are doing... If I were in their jobs I might construct something similar since the programs were devised to link phone numbers between folks the intelligence people know are the bad guys and folks here in the US who are/were talking with these bad guys...

    I don't hold that against them... I don't feel my freedom is/was threatened by that...

    But let's say that I did feel my freedoms were being jeopardized by this program...

    I would have made a copy of my evidence, trusted it to an attorney for safe-keeping and taken the original to my Congressman with a warning that if I ended up dead that the file would be released...

    B~


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: GUEST,guest
    Date: 11 Jul 13 - 05:45 PM

    >>But that doesn't apply in the case of Snowden. He has revealed activities carried out by a government agancy which would appear to be in breach of the US Constitution<<

    And what court declared it so? None. In fact, a court--FISA--declared it legal from the outset. And until such time that it is declared illegal, your argument is bullshit.

    That is really the essence of this case. You cannot whistleblow on a legal operation. You can't say that you believe it is illegal therefore it ok to blow the whistle on it. Every traitor that has ever existed has used that rationale. When the operation is declared legal through the proper channels and you are sworn the uphold that very system, to go back on your word is a grievous betrayal. Once you give your word, you MUST keep it or you are untrustworthy and therefore inherently and decidedly unheroic.

    Those who defend Snowden by saying he has revealed nothing particularly vital to national security are contradicting themselves because he then had no reason to reveal anything and therefore has no justification for what he did. Either the information is vital to national security or it is not. If it is, who is he to decide on his own that it is his to reveal? And the glorification of this creature is dangerously clouding the transparency of his true knowledge and motives.

    "I don't want to live in a society that does these sort of things ... I do not want to live in a world where everything I do and say is recorded. That is not something I am willing to support or live under." This from a man who, through his own choice, is the most recorded individual of our times.

    "With this capability, the vast majority of human communications are automatically ingested without targeting. If I wanted to see your emails or your wife's phone, all I have to do is use intercepts. I can get your emails, passwords, phone records, credit cards." You can do that right now, Mr. Snowden, with nothing more than a computer with online access. Nothing you say has thus far has justified your actions or even explained them. They seem calculated to muddle the heads of the idealistically stupid with heroic sounding rhetoric that plays on fears of a people who, through their own actions, have bloated a government they now feat is too big.

    Snowden wants to think he is the savior of the world: "Our founders did not write that 'We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all US persons are created equal.'" Is he saying (with a straight face) that the US government should be looking out for every single person in every single country? Something that can't be done without tracking their every move. Or is he saying that no government should be tracking anything by anybody anywhere in the world no matter who is doing it or why? Neither of those things sound very wise to me.

    Meanwhile the tracking of your every move and recording of your every call and email will continue as it always has even if Snowden toppled the evil Obama regime and destroyed the NSA forever. But we don't care if we are followed everywhere we go online and all our private records revealed by online sources that have nothing to do with the NSA or PRISM. We could care less. How do I know? Because all the ones who praise Snowden the loudest and longest don't DARE every bring it up. Why? It ruins their moment in the sun. It reveals all their Snowden worship to be as empty as it truly is. But if Snowden--the defender of world privacy--doesn't deal with the internet issue as well and soon, he's just a hypocrite and even worse, a complete fool. And what does that make you?


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: GUEST
    Date: 11 Jul 13 - 05:50 PM

    There's also the element of implicit trust in this situation.

    If a secret US agency first denies that no gathering of metadata on US citizens is going on, then after a whistleblower produces evidence that such is not the case the agency says, "Oh but it's only telephone numbers and not content," who's to say that aforesaid agency isn't lying about that also? Perhaps another whistleblower, and then the fun begins anew.

    It can't be proven one way or another until someone with enough cojones is willing to step forward and call bullshit on the lying. Until then, the NSA never has to be accountable to anyone over anything (oh sure, there are oversight committees, but they can probably be persuaded to ignore questionable practices, "in the interest of national security").

    Journalists with an interest in protecting the confidentiality of their sources probably doubt that there's no intelligence gathering of content, and it would be safe to assume that more than than a few of them are concerned that their First Amendment right to "Freedom of the Press" is being violated (for a good discussion of journalism and national security, see "National Security and the Press: The Government's Ability to Prosecute Journalists for the Possession or Publication of National Security Information" by D.A. Silver, available as a downloadable pdf file from the University of Pennsylvania).

    As that eloquent orator and former President of the United States George W. Bush once said: "Fool me once, shame on — shame on you. Fool me — you can't get fooled again."

    Or more to the point, former President Ronald Reagan: "Trust, but verify."


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: Don Firth
    Date: 11 Jul 13 - 06:27 PM

    In a radio interview I heard a couple of days ago with a representative from the National Security Agency, he said, "We are looking for communications to and from known or suspected terrorists and, yes, we are keeping a record of who is communicating with whom. But no one is listening in on your telephone conversations or reading your e-mail—UNLESS you are communication with a known or suspected terrorist. The reason we are collecting this data is that if you are looking for a needle in a haystack, first of all, you have to have a haystack."

    A quote, often mistakenly attributed to Thomas Jefferson, but it was actually said by Benjamin Franklin:

    "Those who surrender freedom for security will not have, nor do they deserve, either one."

    This kind of information has already been collected and is continuing to be collected by advertising agencies who call you on the telephone just as you're sitting down to dinner and try to sell you insurance or get you to change your credit card to their company. And if you don't think you e-mail and your internet browsing history is being monitored, then why is it that if you look for a particular product or service on line, you are then deluged with pop-up ads for that same product or service?

    I do not see how what the FSA is doing in any way infringes my freedom. It CAN, however, greatly increase my security from being the victim of a terrorist attack.

    You don't have to be concerned over some government agent listening in when you phone the young woman across the street, the one who keeps forgetting to pull her blinds, and breathing heavy into the phone. But there's a fair chance when you go on-line, you'll start getting pop-up ads for meeting singles in your area.

    Don Firth


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: GUEST
    Date: 11 Jul 13 - 08:16 PM

    What has Snowden revealed? No bullshit, just tell me.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: Bobert
    Date: 11 Jul 13 - 08:21 PM

    He has revealed how the intelligence community has linked home-grown wackos with foreign wackos...

    That's a plus and not a negative...

    B~


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: GUEST
    Date: 11 Jul 13 - 09:13 PM

    Uh huh. Like we didn't know that?


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: Bobert
    Date: 11 Jul 13 - 09:20 PM

    The program stopped a couple dozen documented plots, GUEST...

    B~


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: Songwronger
    Date: 11 Jul 13 - 09:24 PM

    http://xrepublic.tv/node/4263
    An interview with Ralph Nader. About 25 minutes long, but jump to 21:55 and he talks about Snowden and other whistleblowers. They're informing the public about criminal activity, and the criminals are pursuing them.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: GUEST
    Date: 11 Jul 13 - 09:42 PM

    "The program stopped a couple dozen documented plots, GUEST..."

    Uh huh. And who in the program told you this?


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: Bobert
    Date: 11 Jul 13 - 09:47 PM

    Do you follow the news, GUEST???

    This ain't like hidden stuff... I mean, if you don't believe the testimony "under oath" by the intelligence people then who do you believe...

    Maybe you'd like to give us your ideal way of stopping bad guys from fucking up innocent people???

    No???

    B~


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: GUEST
    Date: 11 Jul 13 - 10:09 PM

    Sorry, Bobert, but the old Ginny slide rule scenario doesn't cut it just now.

    1) You have no idea what Snowden has or hasn't released.
    2) You have no idea what the source of the documents you are speaking about really are.
    3) You have no idea whether or not a US government 'person' has ever lied under oath.

    In fact, other than your jingoism of a while back, you know no more than the rest of us.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: GUEST
    Date: 12 Jul 13 - 11:10 AM

    Notice how GUEST, true to my earlier statement, simply WILL NOT comment on the online sources that have nothing to do with PRISM or the NSA that already have and display some of your most private information on the internet available to ANYBODY who wants to look it up. Far more detailed info than the NSA is collecting. I recently did a search on my own name and city and a sales website--SALES (it's called "salespider")--had an entry that reads: "[My real name] is a person that lives at [my current address]." I didn't even have to click on it to read that, it was the opening line of this website on the browser page deliberately designed that way so that people searching for me (or you) can find us simply by scanning the browser page. No long involved searching necessary.

    Now I ask you one last time and then I have no choice but to write you off as a paranoid lunatic--WHAT IS SNOWDEN GOING TO DO ABOUT THAT???? He's so heroic and all and refuses to live in a world where we are being recorded and tracked and all that bullshit then he MUST find this situation intolerable. So what is he going to do about it? And while we're on the subject, Snowden-worshipers who have protecting our privacy as your main concern in life, what are YOU going to do about it???


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: Q (Frank Staplin)
    Date: 12 Jul 13 - 12:33 PM

    Whatever happened to the rendition teams?

    Is this miscreant going to be confined to the airport terminal for life?

    I remember a story about a man in exile, aboard ship and denied landing at all ports, doomed to sail on forever. Perhaps someone can refresh my memory.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: GUEST
    Date: 12 Jul 13 - 01:49 PM

    '"The Man Without a Country" is a short story by American writer Edward Everett Hale, first published in The Atlantic in December 1863.[1] It is the story of American Army lieutenant Philip Nolan, who renounces his country during a trial for treason and is consequently sentenced to spend the rest of his days at sea without so much as a word of news about the United States. Though the story is set in the early 19th century, it is an allegory about the upheaval of the American Civil War and was meant to promote the Union cause.'

    Could that be it, Q?


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: Q (Frank Staplin)
    Date: 12 Jul 13 - 02:43 PM

    Yep. I have forgotten a lot of my grade school reading.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: GUEST
    Date: 12 Jul 13 - 03:01 PM

    Another website that was supporting Snowden was comparing him to both John Galt in "Atlas Shrugged" and to the guy in "Fountainhead" who blows up a building that was supposed to have been his creation, his architecture, but the govt took over the project and began making changes and by the time it was completed, it was nothing like what he had designed and the guy was so appalled that he blew it up and was put on trial and all that.

    I thought, geez, the author of that article thinks that the information Snowden is revealing is his own intellectual property!! I mean, that's the essence of the story!! There's a difference between someone who destroys the World Trade Center because it was his design and he was appalled by what it came to represent and someone who destroys it because he hates America and just wants to hurt it.

    Which is Snowden? Well, he didn't create the surveillance program or any of its software or hardware, he did not write any of the policies or have anything to do with the legalities involved. So he cannot be the character-type in The Fountainhead. What about the 2nd type--the guy who blew it all up because he hated the country? That seems extremely probable to me--so much so that there is no possibility that it could be anything else. The reason for the change was nothing more than the election of Barack Obama.

    http://maineinsights.com/perma/revealing-articlehave-we-all-been-fooled-by-edward-snowden


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: Don Firth
    Date: 12 Jul 13 - 04:33 PM

    Snowden as an Ayn Rand hero?

    Boy, that's a stretch!!

    Don Firth


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: Songwronger
    Date: 12 Jul 13 - 08:34 PM

    Russian lawmakers say Snowden deserves Nobel Peace Prize

    Some members of the State Duma, Russia's lower house of parliament, have voiced their support for Edward Snowden, ex-CIA employee wanted by the US for leaking state secrets, with United Russia representative Alexander Sidyakin saying that Snowden is a worthy candidate for the Nobel Peace Prize.

    "I join the opinion that we by no means should expel him. I think Snowden is a great pacifist. This man has done no less to get the Nobel Peace Prize than US President Barack Obama," he said at a round table meeting in the Public Chamber on Monday.

    A member of the presidential Council for Human Rights Kirill Kabanov has similar opinion. "His motives were not material; his differences were not differences with the ideology of the United States. He defended his own constitution, the defended democracy in the United States," Kabanov was quoted by Voice of Russia as saying.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: Suzy Sock Puppet
    Date: 12 Jul 13 - 10:46 PM

    Edward, I'm keeping my fingers crossed that Russia grants you asylum. Even if you could get to Venezuela, the CIA would get you there. Trust me.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PF7zjPTmvAQ&sns=em


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: GUEST
    Date: 13 Jul 13 - 03:00 AM

    Justice for Trayvon


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: GUEST
    Date: 13 Jul 13 - 10:57 AM

    :-) How funny. Jumped the track there. Wrong thread.

    Btw, Edward, the guy who gave false info about that plane in order to embarrass the US did not have to buy his own drinks that night.

    Na zdorovie! Cheers.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: GUEST
    Date: 13 Jul 13 - 12:02 PM

    I'm pitching a new movie to the Syfy channel--a huge, freak storm hits Snowden's laptops--LEAKNADO!!


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: GUEST
    Date: 13 Jul 13 - 03:06 PM

    And this is how the cookie crumbles:

    http://news.yahoo.com/snowden-affair-became-freak-show-153640852.html


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: Bobert
    Date: 13 Jul 13 - 04:13 PM

    Well, so Eddie doesn't like the way the US government works... Says it messes with bis freedoms... So what does Eddie do???

    Goes to Russia???

    Seems there is a disconnect here...

    B~


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: GUEST,SJL
    Date: 13 Jul 13 - 08:25 PM

    Yeah, I think so too. Justice for Trayvon. Jury's still out on Mr. Snowden. Might be a better hero out there.

    Me and my best friend listening to the Beatles. And singing.

    Back in the USSR... http://getradified.tumblr.com/post/39066811799/marx-with-a-lampshade-on-his-head


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: GUEST
    Date: 13 Jul 13 - 08:30 PM

    Marx with a lampshade on his head kills me everytime.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: McGrath of Harlow
    Date: 14 Jul 13 - 05:01 PM

    Since the Russian government isn't set on banging up Snowden in jail, throwing away the key, and probably engage in all sorts of intriguing interrogation techniques, it makes perfect sense that theres's no "disconnect", and that he'd prefer to hole up there, bobert.

    Wouldn't you, in the circumstances? Be honest!


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: Q (Frank Staplin)
    Date: 14 Jul 13 - 07:12 PM

    All the Russian government wants to do is make propaganda points.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: McGrath of Harlow
    Date: 14 Jul 13 - 08:04 PM

    Obviously. The US government appears to be engaged in a kind of reverse PR - making itself look nasty. Which of course is tye truth about both governments in many ways, but broadccasting that truth so openly isn't what you expect tyem to do.

    The irony is that the thing they are so pissed off at Snowden for would appear to be because what he has done made the US government look bad - precisely what the pursuit of Snowden demonstrates to be accurate.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: GUEST
    Date: 14 Jul 13 - 09:13 PM

    >>Since the Russian government isn't set on banging up Snowden in jail, throwing away the key, and probably engage in all sorts of intriguing interrogation techniques, it makes perfect sense that theres's no "disconnect", and that he'd prefer to hole up there, bobert.<<

    So, he only cares about what's best for Snowden and turn a blind-eye to Putin's abominable human rights record. But he couldn't turn a blind eye to a surveillance program? Actually, I see a huge disconnect, what a surprise that you can't.

    >>Wouldn't you, in the circumstances? Be honest!<<

    If I was claiming I'm trying to save the whole fucking world?? I don't think so. Russia is not the place to go. If I turned against my own country to punish them for electing Barack Obama, yeah, then I might.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: Songwronger
    Date: 14 Jul 13 - 10:10 PM

    NSA Blackmailing Obama? - Interview with Whistleblower Russ Tice

    A 12-minute video. Former NSA whistleblower Russ Tice talks about receiving orders to tap phones, seeing names, saw Obama's name years ago (just after he made his convention speech). The NSA started spying on him. No telling what they're holding over his head.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: GUEST
    Date: 14 Jul 13 - 11:34 PM

    Sometimes you can be thick as shit.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: GUEST,SJL
    Date: 15 Jul 13 - 02:42 AM

    Did I ever tell you a Ukrainian folktale about a dog and a wolf?

    Dog's getting up there in years. His people say he is not earning his keep anymore and begin to treat him accordingly. Dog laments his situation, stands on the brink of utter canine disillusionment...

    Friend wolf says, "Major psy op. Let's stage a situation in which you will be proclaimed a hero. Let's say you save their beloved child from me." Plan works. Dog is ensured a dignified old age. Now dog owes wolf something.

    Dog decides to treat wolf to a family gathering in which wolf will be permitted to eat and drink as he pleases in the company of those who would normally cast him out. A choice experience of which wolf is happy to partake.

    Wolf attends and no one even notices. Wolf eats hearty, enough for several days- and then moves on to drinking and gets totally drunk! Then wolf says to dog, "I must sing." Dog says, "NO wolf! You mustn't do it!" Wolf can't help himself. Wolf begins to sing. Panic ensues.

    Dog gets wolf out of this jam with the effect of becoming a hero yet again. Then dog says to wolf, "You got my back once and I got yours. Next time, you're on your own."

    The End. Dog, Wolf take a bow (curtain closes)

    Goodnight Henry.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: skarpi
    Date: 15 Jul 13 - 04:53 AM

    I hope Snowden tell the world all the rest he knows ...about US NSA ...


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: McGrath of Harlow
    Date: 15 Jul 13 - 07:20 AM

    Snowden has revealed a number of things which are true, and which the US gvernment wished not to be revealed. As a consequence the US government is set on locking him up, probably for the rest of his life.

    No one denies that the stuff he has revealed is true. No one, so far as I can see, has given any reason to think that any harm has been caused by the revelations, over and above embarassment to those in power in the US.

    It's shameful that the only countries which have indicated they are open to giving him asylum are far away from where he is holed up, in Latin America. That's how far we have fallen in Europe, as evidenced by the humiliating episode in which a cabal of countries colluded in blocking overflights of a presidential plane which it was believed might have Snowden on board.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: number 6
    Date: 15 Jul 13 - 09:34 AM

    Well said McGrath ... and if the U.S. declares that the "NSA spying is no big deal" than why are they out to get Snowden?

    biLL


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: GUEST,SJL
    Date: 15 Jul 13 - 10:41 AM

    He has stopped leaking in hopes of gaining asylum in Russia so no dice skarpi. That's all we're getting. I don't care. I think we have heard enough from Snowden. He made his point.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: GUEST
    Date: 15 Jul 13 - 12:13 PM

    His point being: "Shame on America for electing Barack Obama. I'll bet you'll never do that again!" And you know what? He's right!

    Have a nice life in Russia, eddy-boy, you deserve it!


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: McGrath of Harlow
    Date: 15 Jul 13 - 02:06 PM

    What earthly reason might there be for imagining that is what's his name had won the presidential election instead of Obama the US universal surveillance system would somehow have been less active? That's just a silly and irrelevant point.

    I'm puzzled at the antagonism shown towards this courageous young man. Not by the US government, that more or less assumed, but by people who don't work for them.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: Q (Frank Staplin)
    Date: 15 Jul 13 - 02:17 PM

    A "courageous" traitor?


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: McGrath of Harlow
    Date: 15 Jul 13 - 02:40 PM

    The suggestion that there is some way in which a traitor cannot be courageous is absurd. Many many traitors have been extremely courageous.

    However blowing the whistle on the unconstitutional and illegal activities of a government agency is not an act of treason. If anything it is better described as an act of patriotism.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: Greg F.
    Date: 15 Jul 13 - 02:43 PM

    "The notion that a radical is one who hates his country is naïve and usually idiotic. He is, more likely, one who likes his country more than the rest of us, and is thus more disturbed than the rest of us when he sees it debauched. He is not a bad citizen turning to crime; he is a good citizen driven to despair."

    ― H.L. Mencken


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: number 6
    Date: 16 Jul 13 - 09:54 AM

    An interesting read ... very relevant to the subject of this thread ... that is for those that are concerned about what is going on with the NSA.

    NSA Snooping: The War on Terror Is America's Mania

    biLL


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: GUEST
    Date: 16 Jul 13 - 04:16 PM

    Excellent link, biLL.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: McGrath of Harlow
    Date: 16 Jul 13 - 05:37 PM

    Well, I haven't counted, but my impression is that most people posting here tend to view Snowden's actions, both in whistleblowing and trying to evade capture, sympathetically. As would have been the case under Bush.    I'd imagine the people shouting "traitor" would have been doing so under Bush also.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: number 6
    Date: 16 Jul 13 - 11:40 PM

    Thanks Guest !

    McGrath ... I agree with your statement ... but, it's Politiks Amerikano, and that's the way it has (unfortunately) evolved in that country.

    biLL


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: GUEST,SJL
    Date: 17 Jul 13 - 10:15 AM

    Good quote Greg. Don't forget Thoreau.

    From the Boston Globe. I thought this was funny:

    "MOSCOW — President Vladimir V. Putin told an audience of students on Monday that the United States had effectively trapped Edward J. Snowden, the fugitive former intelligence contractor, on Russian territory by frightening countries that otherwise might have accepted him.

    When Putin insisted that Russia did not want Snowden to cause damage to the United States, the students laughed out loud..."


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: GUEST
    Date: 17 Jul 13 - 12:37 PM

    http://rt.com/usa/snowden-leaks-surveillance-suits-174/

    Some good news for a change.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: GUEST,SJL
    Date: 18 Jul 13 - 04:42 AM

    Wow!

    Someone said to me just today, "Everybody in the world spies on everybody else in the world. It's always been that way. Get used to it." I hear that alot from my more cynical associates.

    But, wouldn't it be cool if it could just stop? I think I'd rather risk having something bad happen once in a while than to have the government spying all the time. They say they are protecting us, I say that they are protecting themselves from threats to their totalitarian control. That would be us.

    Everyone should keep in mind that Putin continues to spy on his people. He faults the U.S. for hypocrisy, not spying.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: GUEST,Don Wise
    Date: 18 Jul 13 - 10:24 AM

    It seems to me that the bigger, more self-important, more arrogant a country becomes, the more the ruling political class becomes susceptible to paranoia regarding not only the activities of own citizens but also those in foreign countries.

    So.....NSA, GCHQ etc......FUCK OFF!!


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: GUEST,CS
    Date: 18 Jul 13 - 12:03 PM

    I'm gonna clicky this as it deserves a read:

    Obama administration drowning in lawsuits filed over NSA surveillance

    "Following Snowden's recent disclosures, though, Judge Jeffrey White of the Northern District of California ruled on July 8 that there's a way for those cases to still be heard.
    "The court rightly found that the traditional legal system can determine the legality of the mass, dragnet surveillance of innocent Americans and rejected the government's invocation of the state secrets privilege to have the case dismissed," the EFF's Cohn, who is working on the case, said in a statement issued at the time of the ruling. "Over the last month, we came face-to-face with new details of mass, untargeted collection of phone and Internet records, substantially confirmed by the Director of National Intelligence. Today's decision sets the stage for finally getting a ruling that can stop the dragnet surveillance and restore Americans' constitutional rights.""

    Yay for the US Judicial system!


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: Songwronger
    Date: 18 Jul 13 - 08:09 PM

    Snowden: Nobel Peace Prize Nominee

    July 18, 2013

    Swedish Sociology Professor Stefan Svallfors nominated him. He praised his "heroic effort at great personal cost."

    He revealed NSA's lawless global spying. He told millions worldwide what they need to know. He did so at great risk.

    He deserves high praise, not persecution. He showed "individuals can stand up for fundamental rights and freedoms," said Svallfors.

    His nominating letter states:

    "Best committee members!

    I suggest that the 2013 Peace Prize (be) awarded to the American citizen Edward Snowden.

    Edward Snowden has - in a heroic effort at great personal cost - revealed the existence and extent of the surveillance, the US government devotes electronic communications worldwide.

    By putting light on this monitoring program - conducted in contravention of national laws and international agreements - Edward Snowden has helped to make the world a little bit better and safer."

    Through his personal efforts, he has also shown that individuals can stand up for fundamental rights and freedoms.

    This example is important because since the Nuremberg trials in 1945 (it's) been clear that the slogan 'I was just following orders' (rings hollow) as an excuse for acts contrary to human rights and freedoms."

    Despite this, it is very rare that individual citizens have the insight of their personal responsibility and courage Edward Snowden showed in his revelation of the American surveillance program.

    For this reason, he is a highly (deserving) candidate.

    The decision to award the 2013 prize to Edward Snowden would - in addition to being well justified in itself - also help to save Nobel (Committee members) from the(ir) disrepute (resulting from) the hasty and ill-conceived decision to award US President Barack Obama 2009 award.

    It would show (their) willingness to stand up in defense of civil liberties and human rights, even when such a defense (would) be viewed with disfavour by the world's dominant military power."

    Sincerely,

    Stefan Svallfors
    Professor of Sociology at Umea University

    http://www.activistpost.com/2013/07/snowden-nobel-peace-prize-nominee.html


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: GUEST,CS
    Date: 19 Jul 13 - 09:42 AM

    *applauds*


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: bobad
    Date: 20 Jul 13 - 06:49 AM

    Jimmy Carter Defends Edward Snowden, Says NSA Spying Has Compromised Nation's Democracy

    HuffPo


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: Greg F.
    Date: 20 Jul 13 - 11:00 AM

    Carter always did have a brain and a moral code - certainly as opposed to the senile actor that replaced him - which, in some ways, was the cause of his downfall.

    USAsians hate nothing so much as someone who is smarter and better educated than they are.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: GUEST,CS
    Date: 20 Jul 13 - 02:11 PM

    Jimmy Carter, former USA PRESIDENT announces in a speech that currently:

    "America has no functioning democracy"

    And one major news outlet picks it up.
    That right there is a world-wide headline making quote if ever there was one.
    And people claim 'conspiracy theorists' are nut jobs.

    I wonder what Honey Boo Boo is doing and whether anyone's writing about that?


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: Songwronger
    Date: 22 Jul 13 - 06:23 PM

    How the NSA Is Using Cell Phone Data to Drone Civilians (In Pakistan)

    In late 2001, a National Security Agency analyst was asked to do something unusual. Instead of locating a target's cell phone to eavesdrop on his conversation, the analyst was asked for the phone's location in real-time. It was apparently the beginning of the NSA's role in the CIA's drone operations that, a new report compiled by Pakistan suggests, had killed nearly 200 civilians by 2009....

    http://www.theatlanticwire.com/politics/2013/07/how-nsa-using-cell-phone-data-drone-civilians-pakistan/67436/

    So, the NSA is working with the CIA to target cell phone users for drone killing. Do any of you still think you're safe because you have "nothng to hide" from the NSA's hijinks?


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: GUEST,CS
    Date: 23 Jul 13 - 03:26 AM

    When the revolution begins, remind me to dump my mobile phone in a bush! ;-)

    Seriously though I've always wondered why some USians believe that guns can protect them against an evil government, the big weaponry / diverse forms of weaponry / other resources, at their disposal are far too powerful for an armed resistance to have any hope of success today.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: GUEST,SJL
    Date: 23 Jul 13 - 02:42 PM

    Definitely outgunned. I have believed for a long time that the key would be some sort of strategy that involves out thinking them. I see zero chance for any sort of violent resistance to succeed in this day and age.

    You have to admit, the "Snowden effect," not bad for a high school dropout. But now I understand that the NSA is combatting it with the buddy system.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: GUEST,SJL
    Date: 23 Jul 13 - 10:32 PM

    And here's something interesting:

    http://m.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2013/01/why-the-citizen-militia-theory


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: Songwronger
    Date: 24 Jul 13 - 06:51 PM

    NSA Under Fire: Key Vote This Week to Stop NSA Overreach

    Rep. Justin Amash (R-Mich) has authored a controversial amendment that will pull the plug on the NSA's ability to collect billions of Americans' phone calls by defunding these programs.

    In essence, Rep. Amash believes that many Americans would like to have a say on whether the NSA can listen in, record, and permanently store their private phone calls.

    H.R. 2399, the Limiting Internet and Blanket Electronic Review of Telecommunications and Email Act, would:

    "Amend the Patriot Act to limit data collection to specific US citizens under active investigation. The bill also requires that secret Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA) court opinions be made available to Congress and declassified summaries of the opinions be made available to the public."

    NSA head, Gen. Keith Alexander, responded to an upcoming vote scheduled for this week on the amendment by calling a "top secret" meeting with key Congressional leaders in an effort to lobby their support to squash the Amash amendment.

    The NSA does not want a public debate. As usual, those who operate in the darkness despise the light.

    That's why Rep. Amash and his simple amendment demanding accountability and oversight has the NSA spooked and running for cover...

    To date, no evidence exists showing that the NSA's data collection measures have been directly responsible for stopping a single plot.

    Many Congressmen, including the "liberty loving" Michelle Bachmann, have tried to defend, and even whitewash, the egregious constitutional violations committed by the NSA and are waging a hard fight against those who wish to bring accountability and oversight to America's out-of-control police state.

    But why would Bachmann and others defend the NSA's spying program?

    Because of the "terrorists," of course.

    Bachmann and her neocon friends are dead wrong because the real tyranny facing Americans today is coming from their own government and those within the upper echelon of the military-industrial complex.

    Those who foam at the mouth about the dangers of terrorism fail to operate in reality. The shocking statistics speak for themselves here.

    As I reported in our Daily Briefing several days ago, the total number of U.S. citizens killed by terrorists during the ENTIRE year of 2012 was just 10 people. (See the official report for yourself here.)

    And how many of these 10 people were killed by acts of terrorism inside the U.S.?

    ZERO.

    Instead, all 10 deaths occurred in Afghanistan (a war zone.)

    Here are the total numbers for 2012 according to the Obama State Department.

    U.S. citizens worldwide killed as a result of incidents of terrorism: 10
    U.S. citizens worldwide injured as a result of incidents of terrorism: 2
    U.S. citizens worldwide kidnapped as a result of incidents of terrorism: 3

    Meanwhile, FDA-approved drugs kill 100,000 Americans every single year

    So who are the real terrorists here?

    http://ftmdaily.com/global-issues/big-brother-government-global-issues/nsa-under-fire/


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: GUEST,SJL
    Date: 25 Jul 13 - 06:40 AM

    And of course you got twit Michelle Bachman saying that terrorists will run amuck if we don't let the government spy as much as they please.

    If this system works so well, what happened with Boston? As usual, they are violating only the people who aren't doing anything wrong.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: GUEST,SJL
    Date: 25 Jul 13 - 09:48 AM

    Bad news Songwronger. It was just defeated 217-206.

    Major disappointment. Huge. Was what Edward Snowden did all in vain?

    Are these people who decided to leave things as they are just plain stupid or are the elite shielding themselves from challenges to their tyranny? Probably a little of both.

    Foxes in the hen house.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: Q (Frank Staplin)
    Date: 25 Jul 13 - 12:48 PM

    Overall surveillance is the only answer in these days of home-grown as well as foreign terrorists.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: GUEST,SJL
    Date: 25 Jul 13 - 06:47 PM

    Yeah right. I wonder how much those people in Boston who are maimed for life feel about the NSA, being that all that spying didn't make a bit of difference in preventing that terrorist attack.

    You really don't get it do you? Baaaaah! Four legs good, two legs bad!

    Hey, remember this?

    http://seattletimes.com/html/nationworld/2008245641_eavesdrop10.html

    Gee guys, thanks for your service. And that's just the tip of the iceberg. There are all sorts of uses for private information that extend well beyond crass voyeurism.

    I'm not going to argue this point any further since those who get it don't need me to preach to the choir and those who don't won't get it unless it comes back to bite, which it very well may.

    Sadly, this is will be our legacy to future generations who will one day be living an Orwellian nightmare. The ball has officially been dropped.

    Sorry kids. Looks like there is more stupidity and evil in the world than there is intelligence and good. Bottom line, you're fucked.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: GUEST
    Date: 26 Jul 13 - 02:13 PM

    Holder speaking on behalf of the US has written Putin and said the US would not seek the death penalty or use torture on Snowden if he is returned to the US. Trust the US? Right. Just ask Patricia Smith whose son was killed at Benghazi how much anyone can trust the US and its representatives.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: GUEST
    Date: 26 Jul 13 - 07:07 PM

    "That's the upshot of a new analysis by MapLight, a Berkeley-based non-profit that performed the inquiry at WIRED's request. The investigation shows that defense cash was a better predictor of a member's vote on the Amash amendment than party affiliation. House members who voted to continue the massive phone-call-metadata spy program, on average, raked in 122 percent more money from defense contractors than those who voted Wednesday to dismantle it."

    From something on the www.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: GUEST
    Date: 26 Jul 13 - 11:37 PM

    Right!


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: Songwronger
    Date: 28 Jul 13 - 11:48 PM

    Obama Promise To 'Protect Whistleblowers' Just Disappeared From Change.gov

    The folks from the Sunlight Foundation have noticed that the Change.gov website, which was set up by the Obama transition team after the election in 2008 has suddenly been scrubbed of all of its original content. They noted that the front page had pointed to the White House website for a while, but you could still access a variety of old material and agendas. They were wondering why the administration would suddenly pull all that interesting archival information... and hit upon a clue. A little bit from the "ethics agenda":

    Protect Whistleblowers: Often the best source of information about waste, fraud, and abuse in government is an existing government employee committed to public integrity and willing to speak out. Such acts of courage and patriotism, which can sometimes save lives and often save taxpayer dollars, should be encouraged rather than stifled. We need to empower federal employees as watchdogs of wrongdoing and partners in performance. Barack Obama will strengthen whistleblower laws to protect federal workers who expose waste, fraud, and abuse of authority in government. Obama will ensure that federal agencies expedite the process for reviewing whistleblower claims and whistleblowers have full access to courts and due process.

    Yeah. That statement seems a bit embarrassing at the very same time Obama's administration is threatening trade sanctions against anyone who grants asylum to Ed Snowden....

    http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20130726/01200123954/obama-promise-to-protect-whistleblowers-just-disappeared-changegov.shtml


    Senate bill authorizes sanctions on Russia or any other country offering Snowden asylum

    WASHINGTON — U.S. sanctions against any country offering asylum to Edward Snowden advanced in Congress Thursday as the 30-year-old National Security Agency leaker remained in a Moscow airport while Russia weighed a request for him to stay permanently.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/congress/senate-bill-authorizes-sanctions-on-russia-or-any-other-country-offering-snowden


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: GUEST,CS
    Date: 29 Jul 13 - 07:42 AM

    Well, there's a curious coincidence!


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: Songwronger
    Date: 11 Aug 13 - 05:46 PM

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3BaxkPTdRuY

    33-second video. Obama on Jay Leno's show.:

    "A lot of these programs were put in place before I came in. I had some skepticism, and I think we should have some healthy skepticism about what government's doing. I had the programs reviewed, we put in some additional safeguards to make sure there's federal court oversight as well as congressional oversight, to make sure there is no spying on Americans. We don't have a domestic spying program."

    So, he's blaming Bush for a spying program that doesn't exist.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: GUEST
    Date: 11 Aug 13 - 10:25 PM

    It's a vicious circle.

    The USA (United Security Agency) blows up people the NSA (National States of America) says are terrorists. The terrorists respond by recruiting new terrorists to plot and occasionally carry out successful attacks on US interests. The USA says we need more intrusions into privacy and more drone strikes to keep us all secure from the growing number of new terrorists. The new terrorists respond by recruiting more terrorists to counter the intrusions into privacy and the increasing number of drone strikes, and occasionally carry out successful attacks against US interests, and the USA responds ... like a snake eating its tail. An old metaphor, but apropos.

    (Also see Einstein's definition of insanity and the definition of the word internecine)....

    By the by, waaay back in 2008 during Obama's campaign, wasn't Obama skewered by McCain for having the audacity and naivete' to suggest that if he were president he might be open to some sort of ...ummm...dialogue with people with whom we don't exactly see eye-to-eye? Gee, what a novel idea, an idea so basic kindergarten teachers employ this strategy all the time to resolve playground conflicts. An overture to a discussion with the Chief Terrorist in Charge at the moment couldn't hurt Obama's credibility any worse with the Republicans - they think he's part terrorist anyway. If nothing else, he could begin with a simple apology to Iran's new president (what a nice way to say congrats on your recently won election) for that dirty little CIA trick we pulled on them back in the 'fifties that resulted in, well... the current crappy relations the US has with Iran.

    And, if the Israel/Palestine thing doesn't pan out (ahem), rumor has it Obama's pondering what his legacy might be and it sure wouldn't hurt him in that department if, in his obligatory presidential library, we could someday read about how he took the first hesitant baby steps toward negotiations to end global terrorism. Hell, he might even win another Nobel Peace Prize for it.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: Songwronger
    Date: 11 Aug 13 - 11:06 PM

    Is Obama a true psychopath? There's a clip of him saying they don't spy on the American people, but there's this from back in June:

    He (Obama) characterized the NSA's daily collection of telephone records of all customers of the major US telephone companies, first revealed Wednesday by the British Guardian newspaper, and the NSA and FBI's tapping into the servers of major Internet companies to access emails, photos, chats and documents, exposed Thursday by the Guardian and the Washington Post, as a "modest encroachment" on constitutionally protected privacy rights.

    http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2013/06/08/pers-j08.html

    So is he nuts or just a bad liar?


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: Songwronger
    Date: 12 Aug 13 - 09:32 PM

    From today:

    The subversion of due process in America

    August 12, 2013

    The Obama administration is using information obtained through its illegal surveillance programs to target Americans for criminal investigations unrelated to terrorism.

    According to Reuters reports published last week, information gathered by the National Security Agency (NSA)—including electronic wiretaps and phone records—is being shared with the Drug Enforcement Agency (DEA), a division of the Justice Department. A shadowy interagency unit that includes the DEA, the FBI and the NSA, called the Special Operations Division (SOD), uses this information to target US citizens for investigation and prosecution, including for narcotics crimes....

    http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2013/08/12/surv-a12.html


    The Reuters report referenced above:

    Exclusive: U.S. directs agents to cover up program used to investigate Americans

    August 5, 2013

    A secretive U.S. Drug Enforcement Administration unit is funneling information from intelligence intercepts, wiretaps, informants and a massive database of telephone records to authorities across the nation to help them launch criminal investigations of Americans.

    Although these cases rarely involve national security issues, documents reviewed by Reuters show that law enforcement agents have been directed to conceal how such investigations truly begin - not only from defense lawyers but also sometimes from prosecutors and judges....

    http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/08/05/us-dea-sod-idUSBRE97409R20130805


    So now Obama's given us a new alphabet agency of boogeymen--the SOD. Seems appropriate.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
    Date: 13 Aug 13 - 08:35 AM

    ""According to Reuters reports published last week, information gathered by the National Security Agency (NSA)—including electronic wiretaps and phone records—is being shared with the Drug Enforcement Agency (DEA), a division of the Justice Department.""

    There you have it folks!

    Songwronger (real name hidden to protect him from prosecution) doesn't want the DEA to catch drug smugglers and dealers.

    Probably doesn't want his supply cut off.

    It must be some great shit, considering the hallucinations he has.

    Don T.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: Songwronger
    Date: 15 Aug 13 - 07:32 PM

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WR2cu6oDhKc&feature=player_embedded

    Video of a man confronting his congressman about the NSA lies.

    He addresses what was brought up in the Reuters report--that the NSA is passing its intelligence on to the FBI and the DEA so that those agencies can create criminal cases against U.S. citizens. Criminal cases. The whole justification for intelligence gathering since 9/11 has been to fight terrorists, and now the NSA is tapping your phones and looking at your emails for run of the mill criminal cases. While Obama jokes on a comedy program that there's no spying.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: Songwronger
    Date: 20 Aug 13 - 07:58 PM

    Congressman Dennis Kucinich Calls for Shutting Down NSA

    WASHINGTON D.C.- Former Congressman Dennis Kucinich commented on the NSA's mass surveillance scandal at the sold out D.C. film premiere of the new online privacy film "Terms and Conditions May Apply." Speaking to audience members at the post-screening panel discussion at the West End Cinema, Kucinich called for shutting down the NSA, ticker-tape parades for whistleblower Edward Snowden and accountability for Director of National Intelligence James Clapper's perjury before Congress....

    http://www.opednews.com/articles/Congressman-Dennis-Kucinic-by-Dennis-Kucinich-130820-136.html


    Obama, the secrets of the state, and the persecution of Edward Snowden

    On August 9, President Barack Obama opened his press conference with a defense of the National Security Agency's spying on the American people. Once again, Obama resorted to lying and dissembling in defense of his administration's actions. Referring to the Patriot Act, he declared that "it does not allow the government to listen to any phone calls without a warrant." Whatever it is that the Patriot Act may or may not formally allow, Obama ignored the indisputable fact that the government is listening in to tens of millions of phone calls every day.

    The most striking feature of Obama's remarks is what they revealed about the president himself. Obama is the personification of the state military-intelligence bureaucracy....

    We have been told that Obama taught constitutional law at the University of Chicago. One can only wonder what his lectures on the subject consisted of. The press conference of August 9 gave no indication that he understands, or that he is concerned with, the US Constitution....

    The media is nothing more than the means of disseminating corporate-state propaganda. The fusion of state intelligence agencies and media news is epitomized by such figures as Bill Keller, Thomas Friedman, and C.J. Chivers of the New York Times, George Stephanopoulos of ABC News, and the ineffably disgusting Wolf Blitzer of CNN. Today, there is mounting outrage over the tweet sent out on Saturday night by Mike Grunwald, a senior national correspondent of Time Magazine, in which he wrote: "I can't wait to write a defense of the drone strike that takes out Julian Assange."

    http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2013/08/20/lect-a20.html


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: Suzy Sock Puppet
    Date: 20 Aug 13 - 08:30 PM

    All very disturbing Songwronger but remember, Obama's just a puppet. He's not running anything.

    One serious obstacle to Obama is the influence of Joe Biden. If you look at Biden's record, you'll see that he is a Constitution trasher rivaling Cheney. He hides his evil under a charming/buffoonish exterior.

    http://killfile.newsvine.com/_news/2008/08/25/1783040-in-1995-joe-biden-basicall

    http://www.examiner.com/article/joe-biden-falsely-claimed-he-voted-against-afgha

    Can we talk about Joe Biden? Tell me what you think of him.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: Bobert
    Date: 20 Aug 13 - 08:44 PM

    I don't see Obama as a puppet at all...

    When he came to Washington, he set up household in his office... He didn't party... He spent his night reading legislation... He slept in his office...

    Hardly the resume' you expect for a puppet... Bush was the puppet... He was to ignorant of facts to know ehn he was being played... Obama hasn't been played...

    Of course, the Obam haters want to portray him as being played... That fits their right wing narrative...

    Obama has discovered that there aren't many tools in his tool box to make the changes that America needs... The biggest one that he has is as commander-in-chief... Bush used it... Obama hasn't... I'll take Obama's not using it... Yeah, along with Karl Rove and Dick Cheney's meddling Bush used his that power to gain more power... Obama has avoided that route and deserves credit for doing so... Does anyone think that McCain wouldn't have used that tool???

    Historians will get if right on Obama... He ain't no puppet... He's just a victim of terrible timing... He said after he was first elected, "I didn't run for this job thinking that I'd have to deal with a failing economy"... That is telling... It has ruined his opportunity to take the country to where we need to be...

    Lets' just keep reality in some perspective...

    Biden??? Hey, I worked 3 Green Party presidential campaigns... The last one (2000) as a precinct captain but...

    ...I'd go to work for Biden tomorrow...

    Ya' see... The US is under an all out assault by the Boss Hog and even if I ain't 100% into the Dems or Biden I am 100% against stopping this assault first... Stop them and then it's back to the Green Party for me...

    B~


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: GUEST,9
    Date: 21 Aug 13 - 01:00 PM

    True about Boss Hog, but you yourself agreed that what NSA has been doing is just ticketyboo with you. So your line seems to follow whatever policy your government hands out. My country, right or wrong. Yippee! I also recall being one of a very few people here who did his best to talk you into supporting Obama instead of voting green. For that I apologize, but I'm not going to buy the revisionist history, Bobert.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: GUEST,Guessed
    Date: 21 Aug 13 - 05:24 PM

    'It is the duty of a patriot to protect his country from its government'
    Thomas Paine


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: Greg F.
    Date: 21 Aug 13 - 06:05 PM

    Only one problem, Guessed - that quote is bogus- Thomas Paine never said any such thing. You get that from some random teabagger, or from Glenn or Rush?


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: GUEST
    Date: 21 Aug 13 - 11:34 PM

    MSNBC in the USA has been covering the topic of the NSA's "mistakes."

    Quoting from articles in the Washington Post and the Los Angeles Times, the NSA apparently and (supposedly) mistakenly collected thousands, tens of thousands, or hundreds of thousands of content data on Americans not suspected of any terrorist activity whatsoever, including email and cell phone content.

    In the timeline of lies pertaining to this scandal, first it was, Nope, we're not doing it. Then it went to We're doing it but it's only metadata. As the scandal unfolds, what lies will the NSA have to amend in the future?


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
    Date: 22 Aug 13 - 09:25 AM

    ""'It is the duty of a patriot to protect his country from its government'
    Thomas Paine
    ""

    Thomas Paine was an Englishman who doesn't seem to have cared about his country much, since he left it.

    So that quote is either bogus (never said), or an example of political hypocrisy.

    Don T.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: Bobert
    Date: 22 Aug 13 - 10:09 AM

    Data does not mean listening in to phone conversations or reading one's emails...

    And...

    ...500...

    B~


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: Bobert
    Date: 22 Aug 13 - 10:12 AM

    BTW, guess who else is collecting data on American citizens???

    1. Your credit card companies...

    2. Your internet provider...

    3. Facebook...

    4. Websites to visit, including Mudcat...

    5. Mail order catalogs...

    6. Google

    7. Yahoo

    8. Etc...

    Where's the outrage???

    B~


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: GUEST
    Date: 22 Aug 13 - 10:38 AM

    Content data means content, as in what was in the emails and what the telephone conversations were about.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: Greg F.
    Date: 22 Aug 13 - 10:39 AM

    Quote is definately bogus, Don, & easily looked up.

    As for the patriot/traitor question, depends - as it always has - which side of the fence you're on.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: Suzy Sock Puppet
    Date: 22 Aug 13 - 10:54 AM

    Listening to a program on NPR about the NSA right now.

    You know, I don't trust the government at all and I think that anyone who does is naive.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: Bobert
    Date: 22 Aug 13 - 11:15 AM

    The mean ol' gov'mint don't bother me at all... Sure, one party has spent 30 years and hundreds of million$ of PR $$$ pushing this idea that the government is some evil monster out to get you...

    Congress, however, bugs me because of way too many Koch brothers & co puppets trying to take down our economy...

    But I'm sticking to the opinion that until I hear outrage from citizens about what the corporations are collecting - which effects 100% of Americans rather than less than 1% that the government is eyeing - that I'm not going to jump on the anti-government bandwagon...

    BTW, I think that people really have no clue what good things the government does in everyone's lives every day...

    Maybe a government shut down would be a good idea so people would realize those things...

    Let me throw out an example that as a social worker I knew all to well about... The mean ol' gov-mint is paying for the nursing care of millions of indigent seniors... I know... Horros!!! Yup, people, Medicaid pays for those folks care...

    Hey, here's an idea... How about the anti-government people standing up and volunteering to provide for these people... This includes bathing them, changing their diapers, feeding them, seeing that they get their meds, etc...

    I mean, all these anti-government people want to jump all over saftey net programs and say that what we need is for the community to take care of their own... Fine... Quit griping and just do it... And with the middle class be squeezed with no pay raises for 30 years how are they supposed to save enough $$$ to take care of the $4000 a month for nursing home care???

    Geeze Loise...

    B~


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: GUEST
    Date: 22 Aug 13 - 02:31 PM

    When credit card companies, Facebook, Internet providers, Yahoo, Google, and a host of other non-governmental entities collecting data acquire the ability to declare someone an "enemy combatant" without giving reason because it's "classified," and throw him or her in Gitmo without charges and hold him or her indefinitely without trial or access to a lawyer, then there will definitely be outrage. Imagine if Visa or Mastercard drone striked someone because he or she was delinquent on a credit card payment (economic terrorism). Even Internet providers don't have the power to arrest someone if a person engages in, for example, online child pornography. All they can do is turn over the evidence to the appropriate authorities who then come and make an arrest. And at least the suspect will be charged with a crime, provided a lawyer and given a trial. If convicted, he or she will be given a sentence and, in this instance, the possibility of getting out someday to resume life as a free citizen. Not so with the data collected by the NSA who fingers someone because they don't like the cut of his jib or she once wrote "Dick Cheney's mother wears Army boots" and sent it in an email to her friend.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: Bobert
    Date: 22 Aug 13 - 03:01 PM

    If you are talking on the phone with Al-Qaeda about getting a bomb to blow up your fellow citizens you are an "enemy combatant"... The only way that that NSA is going to know that is because computers link your phone number with known Al-Qaeda, then goes to the FISA court to get a warrant to listen into to your phone calls with Al-Qaeda...

    Here's an idea... If you don't want to be deemed an "enemy combatant" then don't become one???

    Duhhhhhh???

    BTW, not one US citizen living here in the US and not making any calls to Al-Qaeda has been arrested as an enemy combatant... None...

    B~


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: GUEST
    Date: 22 Aug 13 - 04:21 PM

    It's not altogether certain that everyone deemed an "enemy combatant" is an "enemy combatant" because guess what? ...the government doesn't have to produce evidence, level criminal charges, or hold a trial. Pretty convenient, eh? Where's the accountability? Just put someone on a list for any reason at all (he was standing at the urinal next to the guy we "knew" was an "enemy combatant," so he must've been one too) and then disappear them, either by throwing them in Gitmo for the rest of their lives or drone-striking them. Wonder what "evidence" the government had against al-Awlaki's 16 year old son, a US citizen, other than his dad was deemed a "bad guy?" Guess just being in the wrong place at the wrong time, being born to the wrong father, or just hanging out in Yemen automatically makes one an "enemy combatant."

    These are the kinds of outrageous crimes Manning and Snowden are trying to expose. More power to them, and those of their ilk.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: GUEST
    Date: 22 Aug 13 - 11:16 PM

    'It is the duty of a patriot to protect his country from its government'

    Edward Abbey


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: GUEST,Guessed
    Date: 23 Aug 13 - 10:40 AM

    thanks Guest. what an interesting man.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: Greg F.
    Date: 23 Aug 13 - 10:45 AM

    Still wrong, Guest. If you're going to quote the man, at least get it right. Abbey's quotation should read:


    A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government.

    Also good to remember that Abbey was an anarchist.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: GUEST
    Date: 23 Aug 13 - 12:24 PM

    Greg, next time you post the author's name and quote. Who fucking died and left you in charge of the store?


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: Greg F.
    Date: 23 Aug 13 - 03:27 PM

    ?

    Got somethin' against accuracy & truth, Guest? & I'm hardly "in charge".


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: GUEST
    Date: 23 Aug 13 - 10:31 PM

    Sorry, Greg, it was a bad day. I was gonna bite someone's ass and yours just happened to be there. My apology.

    Your Mark Twain friend from the north.

    PS All 12 are still singing real good.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: Songwronger
    Date: 24 Aug 13 - 07:53 AM

    The American "left" and Edward Snowden

    ...Increasingly, journalists and publications that publish such exposures are coming under state attack, as seen in the US-UK attacks on the Guardian newspaper and the detention and interrogation of David Miranda, the partner of journalist Glenn Greenwald.

    In their response to the Snowden revelations, the various representatives of the milieu of "left" liberals and pseudo-left organizations have displayed a staggering level of indifference, complacency, and outright hostility to Snowden.

    A typical example was given on MSNBC last month by Melissa Harris-Perry, a Tulane University professor of political science, contributor to the Nation magazine and a supposedly "left" supporter of the Democratic Party and the Obama administration....

    Echoing Obama, Harris-Perry accepted the legitimacy of the claim that the systematic violations of the Constitution were motivated by concern for the security of the American people, and called for a "debate" on the need to "balance" democratic rights with national security. Snowden, she declared, was impeding such a "debate" by focusing attention on his own plight—as though he was to blame for the international dragnet against him carried out by the Obama administration....

    http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2013/08/24/left-a24.html

    Fuck her and fuck Obama. There's no "debate" on balancing spying with the constitution. It's despicable the way Obama has seized on this situation and tried to convince us he needs to listen to our phone calls.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: Greg F.
    Date: 24 Aug 13 - 10:12 AM

    Ooops - sorry northern friend, no prob.- Didn't know which "Guest" I was dealing with so I plead guilty of "assuming facts not in evidence".


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: Suzy Sock Puppet
    Date: 24 Aug 13 - 10:58 PM

    I maintain that if the NSA was effective, the Boston bombing would have been prevented. They haven't prevented anything. There is no balance as you say GUEST. This is directed at American citizens and will make us all vulnerable to any agenda they fancy. Very very scary. As of now, we really don't have any rights.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: GUEST,CS
    Date: 25 Aug 13 - 12:03 PM

    "I maintain that if the NSA was effective, the Boston bombing would have been prevented. They haven't prevented anything. ... This is directed at American citizens and will make us all vulnerable to any agenda they fancy."

    Yep and yep.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: GUEST
    Date: 29 Aug 13 - 06:25 PM

    Obama at the Lincoln Memorial

    August 29, 2013

    ...He praised the veterans of the civil rights movement for "willingly [going] to jail to protest unjust laws, their cells swelling with the sound of freedom songs."

    But the Obama administration is seeking the extradition and prosecution of Edward Snowden for exposing the unconstitutional surveillance being carried out by the National Security Agency (NSA), persecuting Julian Assange for publishing revelations of US war crimes in Iraq and Afghanistan, and condemning Private Bradley Manning to spend the next 35 years of his life in prison in retribution for his fidelity to the principles proclaimed at the Nuremburg Tribunal after World War II—that soldiers have a duty to defy illegal orders and oppose war crimes committed by their superiors.

    The very principle of civil disobedience that was central to the civil rights movement and praised by Obama on Wednesday is repudiated in practice by his administration, which insists, in the manner of all authoritarian regimes, that any violation of the law for whatever reason is tantamount to treason.

    King, were he alive and holding the same positions he did 45 years ago, would doubtless be targeted by Obama alongside Snowden and Manning. In fact, King was hounded by the FBI....


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: Songwronger
    Date: 30 Aug 13 - 06:08 PM

    That was me, without a cookie. Here's the link: Obama at the Lincoln Memorial


    And in case any of you are wondering who the "terrorists" are that the NSA is spying on, here's a list of 72 Types Of Americans That Are Considered "Potential Terrorists" In Official Government Documents. Each of these 72 has a link to the document making the terrorist claim:

    1. Those that talk about "individual liberties"
    2. Those that advocate for states' rights
    3. Those that want "to make the world a better place"
    4. "The colonists who sought to free themselves from British rule"
    5. Those that are interested in "defeating the Communists"
    6. Those that believe "that the interests of one's own nation are separate from the interests of other nations or the common interest of all nations"
    7. Anyone that holds a "political ideology that considers the state to be unnecessary, harmful,or undesirable"
    8. Anyone that possesses an "intolerance toward other religions"
    9. Those that "take action to fight against the exploitation of the environment and/or animals"
    10. "Anti-Gay"
    11. "Anti-Immigrant"
    12. "Anti-Muslim"
    13. "The Patriot Movement"
    14. "Opposition to equal rights for gays and lesbians"
    15. Members of the Family Research Council
    16. Members of the American Family Association
    17. Those that believe that Mexico, Canada and the United States "are secretly planning to merge into a European Union-like entity that will be known as the 'North American Union'"
    18. Members of the American Border Patrol/American Patrol
    19. Members of the Federation for American Immigration Reform
    20. Members of the Tennessee Freedom Coalition
    21. Members of the Christian Action Network
    22. Anyone that is "opposed to the New World Order"
    23. Anyone that is engaged in "conspiracy theorizing"
    24. Anyone that is opposed to Agenda 21
    25. Anyone that is concerned about FEMA camps
    26. Anyone that "fears impending gun control or weapons confiscations"
    27. The militia movement
    28. The sovereign citizen movement
    29. Those that "don't think they should have to pay taxes"
    30. Anyone that "complains about bias"
    31. Anyone that "believes in government conspiracies to the point of paranoia"
    32. Anyone that "is frustrated with mainstream ideologies"
    33. Anyone that "visits extremist websites/blogs"
    34. Anyone that "establishes website/blog to display extremist views"
    35. Anyone that "attends rallies for extremist causes"
    36. Anyone that "exhibits extreme religious intolerance"
    37. Anyone that "is personally connected with a grievance"
    38. Anyone that "suddenly acquires weapons"
    39. Anyone that "organizes protests inspired by extremist ideology"
    40. "Militia or unorganized militia"
    41. "General right-wing extremist"
    42. Citizens that have "bumper stickers" that are patriotic or anti-U.N.
    43. Those that refer to an "Army of God"
    44. Those that are "fiercely nationalistic (as opposed to universal and international in orientation)"
    45. Those that are "anti-global"
    46. Those that are "suspicious of centralized federal authority"
    47. Those that are "reverent of individual liberty"
    48. Those that "believe in conspiracy theories"
    49. Those that have "a belief that one's personal and/or national 'way of life' is under attack"
    50. Those that possess "a belief in the need to be prepared for an attack either by participating in paramilitary preparations and training or survivalism"
    51. Those that would "impose strict religious tenets or laws on society (fundamentalists)"
    52. Those that would "insert religion into the political sphere"
    53. Anyone that would "seek to politicize religion"
    54. Those that have "supported political movements for autonomy"
    55. Anyone that is "anti-abortion"
    56. Anyone that is "anti-Catholic"
    57. Anyone that is "anti-nuclear"
    58. "Rightwing extremists"
    59. "Returning veterans"
    60. Those concerned about "illegal immigration"
    61. Those that "believe in the right to bear arms"
    62. Anyone that is engaged in "ammunition stockpiling"
    63. Anyone that exhibits "fear of Communist regimes"
    64. "Anti-abortion activists"
    65. Those that are against illegal immigration
    66. Those that talk about "the New World Order" in a "derogatory" manner
    67. Those that have a negative view of the United Nations
    68. Those that are opposed "to the collection of federal income taxes"
    69. Those that supported former presidential candidates Ron Paul, Chuck Baldwin and Bob Barr
    70. Those that display the Gadsden Flag ("Don't Tread On Me")
    71. Those that believe in "end times" prophecies
    72. Evangelical Christians


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: Songwronger
    Date: 30 Aug 13 - 06:14 PM

    All of you who think that you have nothing to fear from the spying because you're not doing anything wrong, check out #3. If you want to make the world a better place, you're a potential terrorist. Under Bush/Obama law you can be disappeared, renditioned, tortured and never see the light of day or a courtroom again.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: Songwronger
    Date: 02 Sep 13 - 10:30 PM

    NSA Has Been Spying On Members Of Congress For A Long Time

    ...There was also a report by a former intelligence analyst and whistleblower Russell Tice that the NSA wiretapped Barack Obama in 2004. Is there some massive archive of politicians' dirty secrets somewhere at the NSA? Surely the NSA at least has their metadata – they have everyone's. It is hard to imagine when push comes to shove and its budget time that the NSA doesn't take a peek at who they are doing business with in Congress. Intelligence is all about having as much information as possible, that's the training and that's the game. Old habits probably die hard....

    ...the NSA has been spying on members of Congress and allowing the information to be used for leverage since at least the Reagan Administration.

    "We listened to all the calls in and out of Washington," says one former NSA linguist, recalling a class at the Warrenton Training Center, a CIA communications school on a Virginia hilltop. "We'd listen to senators, representatives, government agencies, housewives talking to their lovers."

    http://news.firedoglake.com/2013/08/28/nsa-has-been-spying-on-members-of-congress-for-a-long-time/


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: Stringsinger
    Date: 03 Sep 13 - 10:18 AM

    The NSA has made the U.S. less secure by it's draconian insistence upon "loyalty".
    The more it investigates, the less secure is our democracy.

    Snowden's persecution is making whistle-blowers more heroic by encouraging
    activism like never before. If this is what they want, then they may as well continue.

    Fear is never a good restraint because there are so many imbued with their idealism
    that they will take risks to implement their beliefs. It's the American way. This is how
    we deal with civil rights, labor, equality, and the excesses of political power.

    War is not the answer. Fear is not the answer. The two walk hand in hand.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: Songwronger
    Date: 08 Sep 13 - 06:03 PM

    Obama administration had restrictions on NSA reversed in 2011

    The Obama administration secretly won permission from a surveillance court in 2011 to reverse restrictions on the National Security Agency's use of intercepted phone calls and e-mails, permitting the agency to search deliberately for Americans' communications in its massive databases, according to interviews with government officials and recently declassified material....

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/obama-administration-had-restrictions-on-nsa-reversed-in-2011/2013/09/07/c


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: GUEST,CS
    Date: 09 Sep 13 - 05:32 AM

    Your link doesn't work for me SW - too long for clicky - so here it is again:

    Obama administration secretly reversed NSA restrictions in 2011


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: Songwronger
    Date: 09 Sep 13 - 06:33 PM

    Thank you.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: Songwronger
    Date: 24 Sep 13 - 11:06 PM

    Booting Up: New NSA Data Farm Takes Root In Utah

    ...running the complex requires 65 megawatts of electricity, enough to power about 65,000 homes. The electronics generate so much heat that they would fry without 1.5 million gallons of cooling water a day....

    ...It also gives the federal government's intelligence agencies easier access to the email, text message, cellphone and landline metadata the NSA collects, "for foreign intelligence purpose[s]," as Vine insists.

    "They are looking for particular words, particular names, particular phrases or numbers ... information that's on their target list," says James Bamford, author of three books about the NSA and a 2012 Wired magazine article focused on the new data center.

    But Anderson asserts that there "is no intent here to become 'Big Brother.' ... There's no intent to watch American citizens,"

    http://ktep.org/post/booting-new-nsa-data-farm-takes-root-utah


    Of course there's no intent to watch American citizens. You'd have to be crazy to believe that. A real nutcase. But then there's this:

    FBI calls half of populace with 9/11 doubts potential terrorists

    A Department of Justice memo instructs local police, under a program named "communities against terrorism," to consider anyone who harbors "conspiracy theories" about 9/11 to be a potential terrorist.

    http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/358624

    We have a president who's now openly arming the people accused of carrying out 9/11, and your local law is instructed to treat you as a terrorist if you question the events of 9/11.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: Don Firth
    Date: 25 Sep 13 - 12:55 AM

    Here's looking at you, kid!
                --Humphrey Bogart in Casablanca

    Don Firth


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: Greg F.
    Date: 25 Sep 13 - 09:35 AM

    Only in the U.S. would those who expose war crimes and government malfeasance be prosecuted and incarcerated while absolutely nothing is done about the perpetrators.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: GUEST,CS
    Date: 25 Sep 13 - 10:10 AM

    Not quite Greg, the US *has* got places like North Korea to compete with. However it's the stinking hypocrisy of loudly proclaiming itself to be the shiniest and purest democracy and defender of liberty truth and justice on the planet, that makes the US government's crimes against liberty, truth and justice rankle so profoundly. And so many people actually believe the hype too. It's pure 1984 without a doubt.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: Songwronger
    Date: 29 Sep 13 - 07:28 PM

    N.S.A. Gathers Data on Social Connections of U.S. Citizens

    WASHINGTON — Since 2010, the National Security Agency has been exploiting its huge collections of data to create sophisticated graphs of some Americans' social connections that can identify their associates, their locations at certain times, their traveling companions and other personal information, according to newly disclosed documents and interviews with officials....

    ...The agency can augment the communications data with material from public, commercial and other sources, including bank codes, insurance information, Facebook profiles, passenger manifests, voter registration rolls and GPS location information, as well as property records and unspecified tax data, according to the documents. They do not indicate any restrictions on the use of such "enrichment" data, and several former senior Obama administration officials said the agency drew on it for both Americans and foreigners....

    ...A top-secret document titled "Better Person Centric Analysis" describes how the agency looks for 94 "entity types," including phone numbers, e-mail addresses and IP addresses. In addition, the N.S.A. correlates 164 "relationship types" to build social networks and what the agency calls "community of interest" profiles, using queries like "travelsWith, hasFather, sentForumMessage, employs."

    http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/29/us/nsa-examines-social-networks-of-us-citizens.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

    Oh yeah, they're just collecting "metadata" on "foreigners" and "terrorists."


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: Greg F.
    Date: 29 Sep 13 - 08:21 PM

    Any idiot that puts personal information on FarceBook and other "social networking" sites for all to see and to freely access (none of which sites promise any sort of security whatsoever and in fact regularly gather information from what said idiots post) has no business complaining about government accessing it.

    Stupid is as stupid does.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: Songwronger
    Date: 15 Oct 13 - 09:08 PM

    NSA collects millions of e-mail address books globally

    The National Security Agency is harvesting hundreds of millions of contact lists from personal e-mail and instant messaging accounts around the world, many of them belonging to Americans, according to senior intelligence officials and top-secret documents provided by former NSA contractor Edward Snowden.

    The collection program, which has not been disclosed before, intercepts e-mail address books and "buddy lists" from instant messaging services as they move across global data links. Online services often transmit those contacts when a user logs on, composes a message, or synchronizes a computer or mobile device with information stored on remote servers....

    During a single day last year, the NSA's Special Source Operations branch collected 444,743 e-mail address books from Yahoo, 105,068 from Hotmail, 82,857 from Facebook, 33,697 from Gmail and 22,881 from unspecified other providers, according to an internal NSA PowerPoint presentation. Those figures, described as a typical daily intake in the document, correspond to a rate of more than 250 million a year.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/nsa-collects-millions-of-e-mail-address-books-globally/2013/10/14/8e58b5be

    These are address BOOKS they're talking about, lists of all your email contacts. That's a lot of addresses.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: Don Firth
    Date: 15 Oct 13 - 09:36 PM

    I don't care diddly-squat if the NSA has the contents of my e-mail address book OR my regular address book. There is nothing there they would be interested in. No political plots, no secret plans to plant bombs anywhere, no communications with terrorists, no illegal activities of any kind—nothing they would be interested in.

    Hell, the tracking cookies that advertising agencies put on my computer, then bombard me with pop-up ads are the REAL pain in the butt! They intrude into my life far more than the NSA does. The NSA is not trying to sell me anything, nor do they slow down my computer.

    They're trying to see to it that somebody doesn't try to blow my ass off!

    Don Firth


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: GUEST
    Date: 15 Oct 13 - 09:48 PM

    http://www.economist.com/blogs/democracyinamerica/2013/06/edward-snowden

    Good article.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: Songwronger
    Date: 15 Oct 13 - 09:57 PM

    Yes, a good article:

    When the state acts without proper democratic authority, it acts as a rogue operation—as just another band of thugs with money and guns and a dangerous sense of self-righteousness. Whether the NSA's monitoring programmes are actually legal and effective may be more pressing questions than whether Mr Snowden deserves our esteem. But it became possible to address those questions openly only because Mr Snowden chose to speak up. If we wish to keep similarly pressing policy questions available for public examination, we must defend the honour of whistleblowers like Edward Snowden.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: Songwronger
    Date: 23 Oct 13 - 06:50 PM

    58 Things We've Learned About the NSA

    NSA spent $652 million to implant spyware on tens of millions of computers.
    BBC, October 22, 2013

    NSA collected more than 70 million French phone records in a single month.
    Washington Post, October 21, 2013

    NSA hacked Mexican President Felipe Calderon's email account.
    Der Spiegel, October 20, 2013

    Documents reveal NSA's extensive involvement in killer drone program.
    Washington Post, October 16, 2013

    NSA collects contacts from an estimated 500,000 buddy lists on live chat services each day.
    The Washington Post, October 14, 2013

    And so on.....

    http://www.tedgioia.com/nsa_facts.html


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: Don Firth
    Date: 23 Oct 13 - 07:38 PM

    Wow! Sounds like the NSA is on the job!

    Ted Gioia is a jazz musician and music historian. He generally doesn't delve into things political, and it appears that some of the sources he used for the article that Songwronger posted are the same ones that Songwronger uses himself. Hardly a political authority, Gioia just gleaned the internet for what he felt would back up his article.

    And he posted it on his own web site.

    Yawn. . . .

    Don Firth


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    Subject: RE: BS: Rat's nest of concealment and lies
    From: Songwronger
    Date: 28 Oct 13 - 07:27 PM

    An interesting video clip. The old government whore Bob Woodward saying the NSA scandal was caused by a "secret government." He's right. One of the few truths I've heard come out of his mouth in the past few years.

    Woodward says, "They need to review this secret world and its power in their government because you run into this rat's nest of concealment and lies time and time again, then and now." Bravo. His voice is quavery (always is because he's such a stressed-out liar), but maybe now he's nervous because he's speaking the truth. It will be interesting to see if he dies of an "unexpected heart attack" in a month or two. The Obama regime has a special hatred for journalists.

    http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/woodward-nsa-secret-government/2013/10/28/id/533435


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: Don Firth
    Date: 28 Oct 13 - 08:05 PM

    Newsmax.com.

    I get their newsletter each morning in my e-mail. I subscribed just so I could keep track of what these yo-yos are raving on about. And here I find Songwronger blithering on about an article in Newsmax.

    Why am I not surprised?

    (Like they say, "Out of the mouths of boobs!")

    Don Firth


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: Songwronger
    Date: 07 Nov 13 - 11:17 PM

    Obama administration pledges to continue illegal spying programs>/b>

    The Obama administration is responding to the latest series of exposures of the massive National Security Agency spying operations by insisting that all the programs will continue, while intensifying its campaign against NSA whistleblower Edward Snowden....

    In the media and political establishment, the fact that these programs are being operated in flagrant violation of international law and the Fourth Amendment prohibition of unreasonable searches and seizures is treated as a non-issue. So is the fact that the latest revelations directly contradict previous statements from Obama and other administration officials that the NSA does not monitor the phone conversations and emails of US citizens.

    http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2013/11/06/spyi-n06.html


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: Songwronger
    Date: 17 Dec 13 - 10:07 PM

    Federal judge holds NSA telephone surveillance unconstitutional

    A federal judge in Washington, DC on Monday declared that the National Security Agency's collection of telephone "metadata" from virtually every call made to, from or within the United States violates the Fourth Amendment, the constitutional provision protecting the "right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures."

    http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2013/12/17/cour-d17.html

    No shit the spying violates the Fourth Amendment.

    What gets me is that we have a president who was supposedly a "constitutional law professor." And now he's the biggest defender of NSA spying. So, either he was a really BAD professor, or he's a traitor to the constitution.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: JohnInKansas
    Date: 17 Dec 13 - 11:09 PM

    There was no "ruling" in the matter referenced by wronger. The judge issued a judicial opinion that there was "reasonable cause to believe" that some provisions of the procedure might be unconsitutional when he remanded the case back to a lower court.

    In actuality, all that happened is that the judge for an appeals court declined to hear the appeal of the lower court decision, but ordered the lower court to "think again" and explain their decision.

    As the "opinion" was stated by the judge, the lower court may rehear the case and provide better rationale for their previous decision, or may come to a different decision, after which the judge may or may not consider a new appeal or a resubmission of the same one. It is only after the appeal has been accepted for trial/hearings that the higher court is permitted to make a "ruling."

    Obvously neither wronger nor his leader-hatemongers have much understanding about the workings of US courts - but that's expected here.

    John


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: Songwronger
    Date: 18 Dec 13 - 12:01 AM

    I pasted the first paragraph of the article thinking that anyone interested might read the second, and maybe more. But you obviously didn't. "But he stayed his ruling pending an appeal by the Obama administration, which argued in court in defense of the program."

    You National Socialists are a piece of work. NSA spying violates the Fourth Amendment to the U.S. constitution. You don't have to be a law professor to know that. You should be ashamed to argue in favor of violating the constitution. If you ever took an oath to it, then what you're doing here makes you a traitor.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: Songwronger
    Date: 16 Jan 14 - 09:49 PM

    Obama's NSA "reform" defends illegal spying

    The Obama White House is preparing a National Security Agency "reform" package that is aimed at legitimizing and institutionalizing the NSA's illegal domestic spying operations, while putting in place stringent security measures to prevent disclosures of its crimes such as those made by former contractor Edward Snowden.

    President Barack Obama is set to present the so-called "reforms" in a speech he will deliver Friday at the US Justice Department. The measures he has embraced are selected from among those recommended to his administration last month by a hand-picked advisory panel dominated by former intelligence officials.

    Even before Obama could make the speech, new revelations provided by Snowden have uncovered yet another sinister operation by the NSA. The latest exposure involves the agency's secret planting of software in almost 100,000 computers, enabling it to spy on their users even when the computers are not connected to the Internet....

    The entire process, billed by Obama as a "national conversation" on data collection and privacy, has only underscored that no branch of the US government—executive, legislative or judicial—and no section of the US ruling establishment has any serious commitment to democratic and constitutional rights. All have integrated themselves into the defense of a totalitarian intelligence apparatus dedicated to relentless spying on the people of the United States and the world.

    http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2014/01/16/fisc-j16.html


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: Songwronger
    Date: 28 Jan 14 - 06:04 PM

    In an interview Sunday with the German television network ARD, former National Security Agency (NSA) contractor Edward Snowden warned that US "government officials want to kill me."

    "These people, and they are government officials, have said they would love to put a bullet in my head or poison me when I come out of the supermarket, and then watch as I die in the shower," Snowden said....

    Snowden was referring to an article posted on the Buzzfeed web site based on interviews with US intelligence and military officials, who candidly discussed their desire to assassinate him. Among them was an Army intelligence officer who offered a startling proposal for murdering Snowden: "… we would end it very quickly. Just casually walking on the streets of Moscow… he is casually poked by a passerby. He thinks nothing of it at the time and starts to feel a little woozy and thinks it's a parasite from the local water. He goes home very innocently and next thing you know he dies in the shower."

    Given that the Obama administration has already carried out extra-judicial murders of four US citizens with Hellfire missiles, such statements can hardly be dismissed as fantasies. On the contrary, they are entirely consistent with the political gangsterism being employed to prepare Snowden's liquidation.

    http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2014/01/27/pers-j27.html


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: Songwronger
    Date: 29 Jan 14 - 10:01 PM

    Edward Snowden nominated for Nobel peace prize

    Two Norwegian politicians say they have jointly nominated the former National Security Agency contractor Edward Snowden for the 2014 Nobel peace prize.

    The Socialist Left party politicians Baard Vegar Solhjell, a former environment minister, and Snorre Valen said the public debate and policy changes in the wake of Snowden's whistleblowing had "contributed to a more stable and peaceful world order".

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jan/29/edward-snowden-nominated-nobel-peace-prize

    If Snowden shows up in Oslo to accept the prize, former peace prize winner Obama would be able to target him with a Hellfire missile.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: GUEST
    Date: 14 May 14 - 12:30 AM

    National Security Reporting 'Criminalized' Under Obama

    National security reporting is "effectively being criminalized" under President Barack Obama, New York Times Executive Editor Jill Abramson says, citing the administration's unprecedented crackdown on whistleblowers.

    "This seems to be, if not a stated policy, a reality where journalism about sensitive national security issues,that I see as vitally in the public interest, is effectively being criminalized, and a real freeze is setting in to what had been up to this point a healthy discourse between sources and journalists," Abramson said during a panel discussion at Columbia University entitled "Journalism After Snowden," according to Politico.

    The Obama administration has pursued seven criminal leak investigations to date, more than every previous presidential administration combined, Politico noted in its coverage of the Columbia event.

    http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/abramson-criminalized-whistleblowers-secretive/2014/01/31/id/550226/


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: Greg F.
    Date: 14 May 14 - 09:05 AM

    The Obama administration has pursued seven criminal leak investigations to date, more than every previous presidential administration combined,

    Perhaps because there were more leaks in toto?


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: GUEST
    Date: 15 May 14 - 12:24 AM

    More leaks in Obama's 6 years than in the previous 220+? I don't think so.

    Obama promised us the "most transparent administration in history," yet he's increased the obfuscation.


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    Subject: RE: BS: The NSA Scandal/Snowden
    From: Mrrzy
    Date: 19 Sep 16 - 07:33 PM

    So, now that the concept of a pardon is in the wind, what do you say, you scurvy knaves, arr? Or is it mateys?


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