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BS: What about the UKIP then?

Dave the Gnome 03 May 13 - 05:45 PM
GUEST,CS 03 May 13 - 06:01 PM
GUEST,Peter 03 May 13 - 06:15 PM
GUEST,Shimrod 03 May 13 - 06:25 PM
GUEST,Frug 03 May 13 - 06:49 PM
Kampervan 04 May 13 - 01:57 AM
akenaton 04 May 13 - 02:42 AM
GUEST,Shimrod 04 May 13 - 03:23 AM
GUEST,Musket sans reality check 04 May 13 - 03:49 AM
Acorn4 04 May 13 - 03:51 AM
John MacKenzie 04 May 13 - 04:40 AM
Les in Chorlton 04 May 13 - 04:41 AM
Wolfhound person 04 May 13 - 05:28 AM
Musket 04 May 13 - 05:44 AM
Will Fly 04 May 13 - 05:46 AM
GUEST,Fred McCormick 04 May 13 - 06:18 AM
May Queen 04 May 13 - 06:25 AM
Les in Chorlton 04 May 13 - 06:34 AM
theleveller 04 May 13 - 09:52 AM
GUEST,may queen sans cookie 04 May 13 - 10:21 AM
John MacKenzie 04 May 13 - 11:48 AM
Les in Chorlton 04 May 13 - 11:55 AM
John MacKenzie 04 May 13 - 12:10 PM
GUEST,Shimrod 04 May 13 - 03:46 PM
John MacKenzie 04 May 13 - 04:03 PM
Les in Chorlton 04 May 13 - 06:48 PM
GUEST,Musket sans reality check 05 May 13 - 04:47 AM
John MacKenzie 05 May 13 - 05:29 AM
GUEST,Fred McCormick 05 May 13 - 06:31 AM
Max Johnson 05 May 13 - 07:08 AM
GUEST,Lavengro 05 May 13 - 07:22 AM
akenaton 05 May 13 - 08:01 AM
GUEST,Fred McCormick 05 May 13 - 08:37 AM
Keith A of Hertford 05 May 13 - 08:54 AM
Backwoodsman 05 May 13 - 08:56 AM
GUEST,Musket sans reality check 05 May 13 - 09:08 AM
Les in Chorlton 05 May 13 - 09:47 AM
John MacKenzie 05 May 13 - 11:11 AM
akenaton 05 May 13 - 12:40 PM
Les in Chorlton 05 May 13 - 12:59 PM
GUEST,Fred McCormick 05 May 13 - 01:47 PM
Keith A of Hertford 05 May 13 - 03:05 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 05 May 13 - 05:50 PM
GUEST,SPB at work 06 May 13 - 05:01 AM
Leadfingers 06 May 13 - 05:30 AM
GUEST,Fred McCormick 06 May 13 - 05:37 AM
GUEST,Ralphie 06 May 13 - 06:29 AM
Max Johnson 06 May 13 - 06:54 AM
GUEST,SPB at work 06 May 13 - 08:19 AM
GUEST,Musket sans Ian 06 May 13 - 08:52 AM
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Subject: BS: What about the UKIP then?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 May 13 - 05:45 PM

http://news.sky.com/story/1086321/local-council-elections-ukip-make-big-gains

Didn't vote for them myself (We had an independent who is pretty good) but I can see why a lot of people did. Not saying I agree with their policies but it seems that the other parties had better do something soon.

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: What about the UKIP then?
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 03 May 13 - 06:01 PM

"largely at the expense of the Tories"

I'm not unhappy to see the right divided. Now let's have a proper opposition to see them destroyed.


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Subject: RE: BS: What about the UKIP then?
From: GUEST,Peter
Date: 03 May 13 - 06:15 PM

There is a good summary of UKIP policy here


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Subject: RE: BS: What about the UKIP then?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 03 May 13 - 06:25 PM

The economy is in a mess because successive governments were in thrall to the idiotic, self-serving ideological nonsense of the neo-liberal 'free market'. They privatised and de-regulated like mad and Big Business and the Banks, freed from all restraint, went on a massive 'greed fest' until, inevitably, the whole rotten edifice came crashing down. The victims of this madness are not the politicians, or Big Business, or the bankers, but ordinary people who are currently being required to pick up the pieces. Sadly, many of these ordinary folks are, it has to be said, unthinking idiots who much prefer to identify and blame scapegoats for their plight rather than criticise the system. Unscrupulous politicians of the Right know about this tendency and exploit it ruthlessly. So along comes a bunch of right wing nutters, like UKIP, who blame all of our current woes on 'foreigners' (i.e. Europe and immigrants) and all of the scapegoating nerds and gits bite their hands off. It was ever thus!


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Subject: RE: BS: What about the UKIP then?
From: GUEST,Frug
Date: 03 May 13 - 06:49 PM

Bunch of closet racists who can't sting anything meaningful together in terms of policies.


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Subject: RE: BS: What about the UKIP then?
From: Kampervan
Date: 04 May 13 - 01:57 AM

Shimrod - I broadly agree with the thrust of your argument but, as you say, successive governments (both Labour, Tory and now Lib-Dems) have been involved in this catastrophe.
So who can people vote for if its 'None of the above'?

Hopefully this is just a protest vote and one of the other parties will move to address people's concerns and adopt a long term, constructive strategy that addresses social inequality as well as national econommics.

Should I hold my breath???

K/van


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Subject: RE: BS: What about the UKIP then?
From: akenaton
Date: 04 May 13 - 02:42 AM

Perhaps now people will start voting as they really believe, not just along party lines.....anything which weakens the grip of the media and gets people thinking about what is happening in the REAL word must be good.....well done Mr Farage and those brave enough to vote out of their "comfort zone"


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Subject: RE: BS: What about the UKIP then?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 04 May 13 - 03:23 AM

Think you should hold your breath, K/van - at least until you begin to turn blue!


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Subject: RE: BS: What about the UKIP then?
From: GUEST,Musket sans reality check
Date: 04 May 13 - 03:49 AM

Anything that gets those who wish to form a government to wake up and not be complacent isn't a bad thing.

Cameron is right not to dismiss them out of hand any more. A lot of voters would think he is dismissing their opinion.

As to whether they could actually be a party of government or even coalition? Their ideas and promises will get a bit of scrutiny from now on. Rightly so.

When people are confronted with more than their charismatic leader, they might notice a few things.

Abolish inheritance tax. Reduce taxes for high earners. Form barriers to 70% of our overseas trade. Abolish smoking in public places restrictions. Renage on public borrowing loans. Restrict liberties for gay people.

I love irony so seeing him on the telly last night with a cigarette in his hand preaching about The NHS. You couldn't make it up. So he did. Said that average A&E wait in Boston was 9 hours. So I checked, considering The CQC has lifted its compliance actions there recently. They are meeting their 4 hour target. Sure, that could and should be better and the measure is crude. But his source can only be the same statistics. ..

Falls at the first hurdle. Also, this was predominantly Tory territory other than the ones where Labour gained anyway.

Good idea to wake up real politicians but no alternative on view.


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Subject: RE: BS: What about the UKIP then?
From: Acorn4
Date: 04 May 13 - 03:51 AM

It's odd because the anti-Europe stance is one held both by extreme right and extreme left - remember Tony Benn has long advocated a referendum on EEC membership - may be a case of "strange bedfellows"!


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Subject: RE: BS: What about the UKIP then?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 04 May 13 - 04:40 AM

I would point out, that like all political parties, they get where they get, by people voting for them. Telling them they're idiots to do so, and sitting in holier than thou, I know better than you; judgement on them, changes nothing. It does however incur resentment.
Instead of criticising how people vote, or telling them how they should vote. Why not present them with positive ideas, and good policies?
UKIP is OTT, but it's telling the electorate, what they want to hear.
Most people don't give a flying fuck who runs the banks, or the railways, or the country. What they want is a decent job, at a decent wage, and lower prices for essentials.
The class based hatred and angst that they hear from left and right, is about as important to them, as the price of caviar.
That's one of the main reasons, that so few people vote.
It's all shit, and who can tell the difference between a lump of tory shit, and a lump of labour shit?


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Subject: RE: BS: What about the UKIP then?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 04 May 13 - 04:41 AM

Eddie Mare took Farange around his policies on BBC Radio 4. nonexistant, incoherent, Eddie was almost speachless.


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Subject: RE: BS: What about the UKIP then?
From: Wolfhound person
Date: 04 May 13 - 05:28 AM

what yesterday says to me is that if replicated at a general election (and thats a big if) we'd be in for a Tory / UKIP coalition next time round. Not a prospect I view with any enthusiasm.

Me? I'd introduce a box on voting papers that says "none of the above", and then make voting compulsory (and electronic). We'd soon see the truth of the fact that few care / think it doesn't make any difference. "None of the above" would rule in perpetuity.....

Paws


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Subject: RE: BS: What about the UKIP then?
From: Musket
Date: 04 May 13 - 05:44 AM

None of the above have been ruling since Blair took politics to the middle ground...


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Subject: RE: BS: What about the UKIP then?
From: Will Fly
Date: 04 May 13 - 05:46 AM

Two comments:

Results at local elections don't always chime with results at national elections.

A quick look at voting turnouts for Thursday seems to show an average turnout of around 33% of the electorate actually voting. Not a huge deal, then.


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Subject: RE: BS: What about the UKIP then?
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 04 May 13 - 06:18 AM

Contrary to what a lot of people think, UKIP is not the BNP in blazers. Neither is it particularly racist. In fact UKIP has hardly anything in common with the blood and honour brigade of fra right nutters who vaunt white superiority as though it actually exists.

Rather, they have found that playing on people's fears of immigration is a handy way to get votes, and an equally handy way to bash the EU.

What they are is a bunch of free marketeering Thatcherites, who are hell bent on removing whatever restrictions on free trade Maggie didn't manage to get rid of. That includes membership of the EU, and the welfare state, and all the employment and equalities legislation which has been built up over the years.

And, hey guess what, they've got a public school educated son of a stockbroker in charge. Thinks, where have I heard that one before? Dunno, but I have heard Farage criticise today's crop of Westminster politicians, on the grounds of lack of experience; according to Farage, you can't run the country properly, without first having had the experience of running a business.

What did our Nige do between graduating from university and becoming a full time politician? He worked as a stockbroker that's what. Not for him, the tribulations of getting your product onto the streets at an affordable price and built to a specification which people will want. Neither does he know what it feels like, trying to survive on the sort of pittance which constitues the bottom end of the pay scale.

UKIP's performance on Thursday wouldn't have been enough to secure them a single parliamentary seat, thank God. Even so, I dread the thought that as things go from bad to worse, UKIP could increase its support to the point where it would hold the balance of power. IE., a Tory-UKIP demolition, sorry, coalition.

If you want to see a return to Thatcherism, but this time on stilts and with the lid off, go ahead and vote for them. But give me enough time to get out of the country first.


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Subject: RE: BS: What about the UKIP then?
From: May Queen
Date: 04 May 13 - 06:25 AM

Un-believeable views Guest Kent Folk...All my Eastern European workforce (and Spanish and Various African nationalities)do jobs quicker, better and with more care than many young British kids these days. In my experience its young British who think the world owes them a living.

I expect you agree with UKIP policies on gay equality too? See PE stops you being gay thread


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Subject: RE: BS: What about the UKIP then?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 04 May 13 - 06:34 AM

The thing is May Queen, Mr kent Folk is writing ironically as a p*ss take on UKIP - surely?


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Subject: RE: BS: What about the UKIP then?
From: theleveller
Date: 04 May 13 - 09:52 AM

I think that Ukip's success here is just a flash in the pan - a protest at the incompetence of the Condems. I have no worries about their long-term viability. If their performance in local government is anything like that in the European Parliament, where they don't even bother to turn up half the time, people will soon see that they are just a bunch of incompetent buffoons, wasters and spoilers who, despite their predelection for its products, couldn't organise a piss-up in a brewery. It won't be long until, like their stable-mates the BNP, they crash and burn in total disarray.


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Subject: RE: BS: What about the UKIP then?
From: GUEST,may queen sans cookie
Date: 04 May 13 - 10:21 AM

Lets hope so Les, lets hope so!

I was in such a hurry to reply i didn't check for irony, still not sure its there tho. .I also fell into the trick of generalising about another sector of society (our young British workers) . Of course there are good and poor workers in all age groups, genders and nationalities. I just know that the flow of Eastern European workers has revolutionised my work sector ( hospitality) for the better


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Subject: RE: BS: What about the UKIP then?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 04 May 13 - 11:48 AM

Don't need another unacceptable (to some) party, do we?
After all, there's only so much bile, to go round ;)


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Subject: RE: BS: What about the UKIP then?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 04 May 13 - 11:55 AM

Tha Nasty Party with a smirk?


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Subject: RE: BS: What about the UKIP then?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 04 May 13 - 12:10 PM

They're all nasty. There's not a drop of altruism, in any of them.
Self glorification, in the guise of do goodery, is what they're all about.
They all know what's best for you, without bothering to ask you.
They all betray, and/or ignore their manifesto. Load of tossers!


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Subject: RE: BS: What about the UKIP then?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 04 May 13 - 03:46 PM

"Most people don't give a flying fuck who runs the banks, or the railways, or the country. What they want is a decent job, at a decent wage, and lower prices for essentials."

Yes, but far too many of them also want their elected representatives to 'punish' those that they believe to be of a lower social status to themselves (e.g. the poor, the unemployed and immigrants).

"The class based hatred and angst that they hear from left and right, is about as important to them, as the price of caviar."

I would argue that, unfortunately, class is still important to a lot of people - including Tory voters and many Labour voters who are wilfully blind to the changes that Blair wrought on their party.

"That's one of the main reasons, that so few people vote.
It's all shit, and who can tell the difference between a lump of tory shit, and a lump of labour shit?"

The other reason is that they are too wilfully stupid, selfish and bone-idle to think about the issues and drag themselves to the polling station! Since Blair, it's difficult to distinguish between Tory and Labour (both centre right parties obsessed with neo-liberal, free market ideology) but if people were more engaged with the democratic process perhaps the parties would have to distinguish themselves. If someone moans to me about the present situation, my first question is, "do you use your vote?"


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Subject: RE: BS: What about the UKIP then?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 04 May 13 - 04:03 PM

So you're politically savvy, and you can point them in the right direction then?
Might that be your direction?


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Subject: RE: BS: What about the UKIP then?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 04 May 13 - 06:48 PM

Vote Labour or you get the Tories. Yes we get things wrong and we have done bad things, but that's it folks


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Subject: RE: BS: What about the UKIP then?
From: GUEST,Musket sans reality check
Date: 05 May 13 - 04:47 AM

What I find interesting is that many, self included, are pointing at holes in their policies or lack of, questioning their intentions and presupposing their aims yet we have to my knowledge at least one regular mudcatter who claims to be a member, has been posting on other thread yet misses the opportunity to put us all right.

His choice but it does seem odd. Perhaps courage of conviction is not a strong point with their followers? A bit like the BNP councillors who had no understanding of what they were discussing and voting on. ..

---------Warning! This thread is under attack from trolls using the GUESTnames of some regulars! This POST is genuine. Mudelf.------------------


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Subject: RE: BS: What about the UKIP then?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 05 May 13 - 05:29 AM

Well to adapt an old saying, which originally just mentions religion.

Religion, politics, and sexual preferences, are like a penis.

It's OK to have one
It's OK to be proud of it
Taking it out and waving it about, can only offend

Tempted to add footy, to that list ;)


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Subject: RE: BS: What about the UKIP then?
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 05 May 13 - 06:31 AM

Hopefully, before the next general election, the electorate will realise they are just a crowd of fruitcakes with no policies.

Having said that though, I have come across a couple of UKIP policies lately, and they should come as no surprise.

Firstly, they are opposed to gay marriage, probably on the basis that if gay marriage were allowed, the earth would cease to exist.

The other is one which I picked up a whisker of during a tv discussion. Acording to one of the speakers, UKIP proposes bringing in a single flat rate of taxation. IE., everybody, from the humblest office cleaner to the wealthiest magnate in the land would pay the same amount of income tax, regardless of their income.

Remember what happened when Maggie tried to bring in something similar in the guise of the poll tax?

I have to say that idea sounds too bizarre even for a bunch of fruitcakes and loonies like UKIP, but you just never know. Anyone care to confirm or deny?


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Subject: RE: BS: What about the UKIP then?
From: Max Johnson
Date: 05 May 13 - 07:08 AM

@ Wolfhound person

I'd introduce a box on voting papers that says "none of the above", and then make voting compulsory (and electronic).

Being interested in politics isn't compulsory, and I don't see how it can be made to be. If someone has no interest in or knowledge of who governs them then surely it's better that they don't vote?

I agree that a 'None of the above' choice would be interesting but in the long run it would have no more effect than a non-vote, the only difference being that it would be registered.


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Subject: RE: BS: What about the UKIP then?
From: GUEST,Lavengro
Date: 05 May 13 - 07:22 AM

UKIP are basically Tories that haven't yet learnt to hide their intolerance and hatred of other races and sexual orientations etc. with the same "professionalism" that Cameron et al. have managed to accomplish after years of practice and with expensive public relations machines behind them.


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Subject: RE: BS: What about the UKIP then?
From: akenaton
Date: 05 May 13 - 08:01 AM

Guest Giovanni.....couldn't agree more.

The system is fucked politically, economically and socially.

Fred....I wish you would stop printing stuff like "Ukip wants everyone to pay the same amount of tax"
You are being disingenuous.

As recent event have shown "tax" is meaningless under this system, unless you are on PAYE.


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Subject: RE: BS: What about the UKIP then?
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 05 May 13 - 08:37 AM

Akenaton. How do you work that one out? VAT (Value Added Tax) is levied at a single rate and it's still a tax and it's not linked to PAYE.

Anyway, how does that make me disingenuous?

Besides which I didn't print my last contribution. I posted it. Well, e-posted it actually. And I think you meant events, not event.


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Subject: RE: BS: What about the UKIP then?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 May 13 - 08:54 AM

we have to my knowledge at least one regular mudcatter who claims to be a member, has been posting on other thread yet misses the opportunity to put us all right.
Who Musket?
You made a comment on another thread as if you thought I was one.
I do not know why.


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Subject: RE: BS: What about the UKIP then?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 May 13 - 08:56 AM

"VAT (Value Added Tax) is levied at a single rate and it's still a tax and it's not linked to PAYE."

Errrrrrmmm, not true. There are three rates of VAT in the UK - Standard Rate 20%, Reduced Rate 5%, and Zero Rate 0%, and the rate applied depends on the nature of the goods or services it's applied to.


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Subject: RE: BS: What about the UKIP then?
From: GUEST,Musket sans reality check
Date: 05 May 13 - 09:08 AM

Use of the word "we". Dead giveaway.


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Subject: RE: BS: What about the UKIP then?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 05 May 13 - 09:47 AM

What most people want is lower taxes and better and often more services. That is basically what UKIP offer - with the money coming from leaving the EU. That move has not and probably cannot be costed.

UKIP - "fruitcakes, loonies and closet racists" - we need to show respect for people who have taken the choice to support this party – Who said that?


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Subject: RE: BS: What about the UKIP then?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 05 May 13 - 11:11 AM

Not 100% sure Les, but he sounds awfully scared, to me.


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Subject: RE: BS: What about the UKIP then?
From: akenaton
Date: 05 May 13 - 12:40 PM

The "amount" of tax, and the "rate" of tax are two different things.

There are millions of people in this country, who feel as if they have no political voice.
They are represented by automatons, who all toe the party line....they dont give a flying fuck about what ordinary folk think or want, all they care about is being elected or re-elected.

They all know the system is in decline for the forseeable future but dare not admit it.

Time we started separating "social issues" from political agendas,
Most of us are social conservatives no matter how politically left wing we believe ourselves to be.

Mr Farage and his supporters have shaken neo-liberalism to its core....and a bloody good thing too, a bit of plain speaking might bring as all back to reality.


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Subject: RE: BS: What about the UKIP then?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 05 May 13 - 12:59 PM

Mr F talks rubbish


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Subject: RE: BS: What about the UKIP then?
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 05 May 13 - 01:47 PM

Sorry ake, but you haven't explained in what way my comment was "disingenuous".


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Subject: RE: BS: What about the UKIP then?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 May 13 - 03:05 PM

Musket, one of us has made a mistake.
I do not think it was me.
Not a big issue, but you should be more careful about jumping to conclusions.


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Subject: RE: BS: What about the UKIP then?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 05 May 13 - 05:50 PM

""Acording to one of the speakers, UKIP proposes bringing in a single flat rate of taxation. IE., everybody, from the humblest office cleaner to the wealthiest magnate in the land would pay the same amount of income tax, regardless of their income.""

I have absolutely no liking either for UKIP, or for the self obsessed eejit who leads it, but if you are going to attack policies, it is helpful to find out exactly what they are.

UKIP's tax policy is a fixed percentage of total income taxation rate (basically what we have now without the deductables and loopholes).

They don't seem sure whether they want 31% of gross, or 25% of gross, and some are suggesting two rates.

What they are not saying is rich or poor pay the same tax.

The basic premise is good, with little or no chance of evasion, but I don't think they have a clue as to how it can be done.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: What about the UKIP then?
From: GUEST,SPB at work
Date: 06 May 13 - 05:01 AM

The existing tax system recognises that individuals may have needs - education, health services, support when too old to work, support when not physically or mentally able to work, keeping people safe, etc etc. It also recognises that a flat rate of tax would mean that those on the lowest levels of income would not have enough to meet their basic needs so we have a system which says that if your income if way above what you need to survive you pay a bit more.

Discussion about unifying NIC and TAX into a single tax rate is nothing new.


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Subject: RE: BS: What about the UKIP then?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 06 May 13 - 05:30 AM

Thinking back to the Gang of Four , the idea of a Democratic Labour Party adopting a mix of Socialism and Capitalism SEEMED an excellent idea which came to absolutely nothing when they merged with the (then) Liberal Party .
I cant help wondering if we are going to see something similar with UKIP
in a year or two's time .


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Subject: RE: BS: What about the UKIP then?
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 06 May 13 - 05:37 AM

Wyziwig. I wasn't attacking UKIP's policy on income tax. I was merely seeking clarification, which you have helpfully provided. Thank you.


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Subject: RE: BS: What about the UKIP then?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 06 May 13 - 06:29 AM

Unless I've missed it. How are UKIP going to finance the next election? 600 odd seats.. No money in the bank. Whether you like them or not, They just couldn't pay the millions for the campaign. It ain't a cheap thing running a political party. Particularly when you only have one name that anybody's heard of? (Can anyone name another UKIP member? Thought not) They'll disappear in the next two years. Just a waste of money....but, at least it's not my my money! I will watch what happens in the next 2 years with an interest. But they won't get a seat in Parliament


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Subject: RE: BS: What about the UKIP then?
From: Max Johnson
Date: 06 May 13 - 06:54 AM

Hiya Ralphie!

But they won't get a seat in Parliament

I agree with you, but while they keep threatening to win seats the other parties will try to be seen to adopt UKIP policies. Which they'll then ditch because most of them are unrealistic.
The big danger is leaving Europe imo. "Oh look; the edge of a cliff. Woohoo!"


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Subject: RE: BS: What about the UKIP then?
From: GUEST,SPB at work
Date: 06 May 13 - 08:19 AM

The government might decide that they personally want to leave EU, but I have a passport with nearly 9 years left on it that says European Union.

The next two year however will be a testing time for the liberals as the tories will want to move more to the right to avoid losing support of their traditional nasty xenophobes - oops sorry, voters! If they (liberals) want any smidgen of credibility, they would need to break ranks with the coalition well before then.


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Subject: RE: BS: What about the UKIP then?
From: GUEST,Musket sans Ian
Date: 06 May 13 - 08:52 AM

In which case Keith I would humbly apologise. Your posts on the subject previously have been of the possessive use of words though, hence my attitude to some of your posts. My opinion of UKIP is not a positive one.


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Mudcat time: 21 October 2:58 AM EDT

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