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BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon

Lighter 22 Apr 13 - 09:51 PM
Greg F. 22 Apr 13 - 09:49 PM
bobad 22 Apr 13 - 09:34 PM
bobad 22 Apr 13 - 09:33 PM
Lighter 22 Apr 13 - 09:26 PM
Greg F. 22 Apr 13 - 09:26 PM
bobad 22 Apr 13 - 09:25 PM
Greg F. 22 Apr 13 - 09:14 PM
bobad 22 Apr 13 - 09:08 PM
Greg F. 22 Apr 13 - 08:59 PM
bobad 22 Apr 13 - 08:39 PM
bobad 22 Apr 13 - 08:24 PM
GUEST,gillymor 22 Apr 13 - 08:20 PM
bobad 22 Apr 13 - 07:28 PM
Greg F. 22 Apr 13 - 07:08 PM
bobad 22 Apr 13 - 06:21 PM
McGrath of Harlow 22 Apr 13 - 06:10 PM
bobad 22 Apr 13 - 05:39 PM
Lighter 22 Apr 13 - 05:21 PM
McGrath of Harlow 22 Apr 13 - 03:56 PM
Bettynh 22 Apr 13 - 01:57 PM
Lighter 22 Apr 13 - 01:56 PM
McGrath of Harlow 22 Apr 13 - 01:30 PM
McGrath of Harlow 22 Apr 13 - 01:26 PM
Bettynh 22 Apr 13 - 01:06 PM
dick greenhaus 22 Apr 13 - 12:34 PM
John MacKenzie 22 Apr 13 - 04:59 AM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Apr 13 - 04:40 AM
Greg F. 21 Apr 13 - 04:46 PM
McGrath of Harlow 21 Apr 13 - 04:29 PM
Ebbie 21 Apr 13 - 04:18 PM
McGrath of Harlow 21 Apr 13 - 04:01 PM
Bettynh 21 Apr 13 - 03:50 PM
pdq 21 Apr 13 - 03:34 PM
olddude 21 Apr 13 - 03:32 PM
Ebbie 21 Apr 13 - 03:31 PM
Ebbie 21 Apr 13 - 03:27 PM
GUEST,olddude 21 Apr 13 - 03:17 PM
pdq 21 Apr 13 - 03:02 PM
McGrath of Harlow 21 Apr 13 - 02:57 PM
GUEST,olddude 21 Apr 13 - 02:53 PM
dick greenhaus 21 Apr 13 - 02:45 PM
pdq 21 Apr 13 - 02:31 PM
John MacKenzie 21 Apr 13 - 02:30 PM
michaelr 21 Apr 13 - 02:07 PM
dick greenhaus 21 Apr 13 - 01:30 PM
olddude 21 Apr 13 - 12:31 PM
Ebbie 21 Apr 13 - 12:24 PM
olddude 21 Apr 13 - 12:19 PM
Stringsinger 21 Apr 13 - 11:28 AM
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Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Lighter
Date: 22 Apr 13 - 09:51 PM

Unfortunately the words "Islamism" and "Islam" are so similar as to invite confusion.

That's why I prefer to say "violent jihadists" or something like that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 Apr 13 - 09:49 PM

some...do not understand the distinction between Islam and Islamism

As others do not understand the distinction between Judaism and Zionism.


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Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: bobad
Date: 22 Apr 13 - 09:34 PM

That should read "some either do not"


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Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: bobad
Date: 22 Apr 13 - 09:33 PM

It would appear, Lighter, that some either do or do not understand the distinction between Islam and Islamism and demonstrate their ignorance by calling people names.


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Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Lighter
Date: 22 Apr 13 - 09:26 PM

I think we all agree that armed, violent, radical, anti-Christian, anti-Jewish, anti-Buddhist, anti-Hindu, anti-western, anti-democratic, anti-education, anti-feminist, anti-life, pro-theocratic jihadists are a genuine threat to global peace and security.

Or do we?


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Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 Apr 13 - 09:26 PM

Mommy, Mommy the bad man's picking on me Waaaahhhhhh


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Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: bobad
Date: 22 Apr 13 - 09:25 PM

Gee Greg, do you ever have an opinion on the topics under discussion or do you just stalk and call those who you don't agree with names?


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Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 Apr 13 - 09:14 PM

"Stalker"? Geez, Bobad - get a life & stop whining like a little kid..


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Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: bobad
Date: 22 Apr 13 - 09:08 PM

Must you act the stalker Greg?


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Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 Apr 13 - 08:59 PM

Must you act the ass, Bobad?


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Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: bobad
Date: 22 Apr 13 - 08:39 PM

gillymor, I abhor Islamists and the methods they employ to promote their agenda. Do you agree with them and support their agenda?


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Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: bobad
Date: 22 Apr 13 - 08:24 PM

"We need look no further than your post, Bobad."

You are out of your league, you don't know what you're talking about. Educate yourself.


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Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: GUEST,gillymor
Date: 22 Apr 13 - 08:20 PM

We need look no further than your post, Bobad.


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Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: bobad
Date: 22 Apr 13 - 07:28 PM

He is being tried in an ordinary court of law so all you apologists of Islamism will have to find another case to embrace so you can trumpet your rallying call of Islamophobia.


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Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 Apr 13 - 07:08 PM

Since Timothy McVeigh was tried, and convicted, in an ordinary court for murdering a lot of people in a terrorist bombing, what would be the rationale for not doing the same in the case of his fellow citizen involved in the Boston bombings?

McVeigh didn't have any Muslim connections.


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Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: bobad
Date: 22 Apr 13 - 06:21 PM

" In a criminal complaint unsealed Monday in United States District Court for the District of Massachusetts, Mr. Tsarnaev was charged with one count of "using and conspiring to use a weapon of mass destruction" against persons and property within the United States resulting in death, and one count of "malicious destruction of property by means of an explosive device resulting in death" in last week's bombings.

If he is convicted of the charges, he could face the death penalty."

NY Times:


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Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Apr 13 - 06:10 PM

Terrorism is murder. And this was a particularly nasty and sordid murder. Treating it as "something more" in practice gives it a status, even a dignity it doesn't deserve.


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Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: bobad
Date: 22 Apr 13 - 05:39 PM

"what it was, murder carried out by a Boston resident in Boston,"

It was somewhat more than that obviously as attested to by the charges laid.


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Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Lighter
Date: 22 Apr 13 - 05:21 PM

Dz. has been provided with an attorney - so somebody is advising him of his rights. His lawyer is obligated to tell him he doesn't have to talk.

He faces Federal charges of premeditated murder with an explosive device in an act of terror. There will be other charges, including state charges in Massachusetts. The Federal charge carries a potential death penalty even if state charges do not.

As an American citizen arrested on American soil, it appears so far that he will be tried in civilian court with full Constitutional protections.


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Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Apr 13 - 03:56 PM

Might make a lot more sense to treat it as what it was, murder carried out by a Boston resident in Boston, to be tried in the Massachusetts legal system. This would mean that the death penalty could not be imposed, but what good would it do to kill him anyway?


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Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Bettynh
Date: 22 Apr 13 - 01:57 PM

McGrath, if they're determined to get the death penalty, it'll have to be a federal case. Massachusetts has abolished the death penalty. State lines weren't crossed during the actual crimes, so federal juristiction might be arguable. The various police agencies seem to be trying very hard to maintain a united front, with minimal turf wars. Time will tell on that front.


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Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Lighter
Date: 22 Apr 13 - 01:56 PM

> the point of not giving a Miranda warning is that it pretty muh eliminates the possibility of having him tried within the criminal oourt sytstem---it pretty much assumes a military tribunal will be employed.

Not at all, at least according to numerous legal experts on TV. The Supreme Court has ruled an "Exception to the Miranda Decision." This Exception states that the warning is not required when public safety may reasonably be thought to be under continued threat (e.g., the possibility of unexploded bombs or a larger conspiracy).

No information gained under the Exception, however, may be used in court against the suspect. The reasoning is that the Fifth Amendment protects you from self-incrimination; it doesn't give you the right also to withhold vital information that cannot incriminate you. (And it cannot if prosecutors are forbidden to use it in court.)

What's more, if there's an airtight case against him - based on photos, physical evidence, and plenty of witnesses - prosecutors may not need any self-incriminating statement from him.

They can read him his Miranda rights after questioning him about things that cannot be used against him. And they probably will (short of an airtight case), if only to eliminate a basis for appeal.

Finally, if he doesn't want to talk, they can't legally make him. To "mirandize" a suspect only makes certain he knows what's in the Constitution, which he may know anyway. The Miranda decision was based on the fact that many arrested suspects *had no idea* they had a right to remain silent and a right to a lawyer.


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Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Apr 13 - 01:30 PM

And I see that it's been determined any trial will in fact be in a civilian court.


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Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Apr 13 - 01:26 PM

Since Timothy McVeigh was tried, and convicted, in an ordinary court for murdering a lot of people in a terrorist bombing, what would be the rationale for not doing the same in the case of his fellow citizen involved in the Boston bombings?


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Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Bettynh
Date: 22 Apr 13 - 01:06 PM

My son is in basic training for the army, so he's rather isolated from national and local news. I've been struggling to write him about this coherently and accurately, keeping it to less than book size. Thanks, bobad, for that New Yorker article. I printed it out to send. Today's letter will be describing aftermath - planning in Boston to open the crime sceene street (would that every city leader could demand clear representation from insurance companies, pro bono lawyers to represent local companies, and a loan pool for help with continuing business in the area - Mayor Menino will be sorely missed after this November), local and various agency cops winding down, sports and other events postponed, etc. I may mention the Miranda warning issue, but only to remind him that it's about the verbal recitation of rights the accused has, whether warned or not, as a citizen. I'll remind him that blaming all Muslims for this would be equivalent to blaming all Christians for the Branch Davidians (and the events of 20 years ago in Waco) or all video games for the Columbine school shootings of 13 years ago. My son is 30, so maybe he can help others in his group process this without hate. This whole affair probably has more to do with disaffected American young men (my son knows many) than it does with foreign intrigue.


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Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 22 Apr 13 - 12:34 PM

the point of not giving a Miranda warning is that it pretty muh eliminates the possibility of having him tried within the criminal oourt sytstem---it pretty much assumes a military tribunal will be employed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 22 Apr 13 - 04:59 AM

Remember John Adams, and the original Boston Massacre.


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Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Apr 13 - 04:40 AM

The London Marathon yesterday had even bigger crowds than usual, and was a great success.

A silence was held for the Boston victims, and runners wore black ribbons for them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Apr 13 - 04:46 PM

if they are smart and stop talking about foreign [enemy] combatant stuff

Ah, but ya see, Dan, they AREN'T smart - and PeeDee is a good example.


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Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Apr 13 - 04:29 PM

The Oath of Allegiance quoted by pdq a few posts back, which starts "I hereby declare"


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Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Ebbie
Date: 21 Apr 13 - 04:18 PM

"...would be possible to make that declaration quite sincerely, and change your mind about it subsequently."

What declaration is that, Kevin?


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Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Apr 13 - 04:01 PM

Of course it would be possible to make that declaration quite sincerely, and change your mind about it subsequently. And it would be remarkably hard to prove that you had in fact been lying when you made it. More especially perhaps in the case of a teenager. They tend to be changeable about stuff.


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Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Bettynh
Date: 21 Apr 13 - 03:50 PM

Every time I flip by FoxNews today, I hear "Miranda Rights." So they're spending hours of air time getting excited about supposed statements A) from a person who is physically unable to talk and B) unnecessary for prosecution anyway? Typical. I only hope that Nancy Grace will pass on this (though I doubt she will).


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Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: pdq
Date: 21 Apr 13 - 03:34 PM

There are very different things being lumped together...

       Miranda Rights

       denaturalization

       declaring the bomber an "enemy combatant"

One thing that is almost certain is that he will not be read Miranda under any circumstances.


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Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: olddude
Date: 21 Apr 13 - 03:32 PM

Here is something that I hope comes out, The older guy beat the hell out of his girlfriend at the time. Remember he only has a green card, his brother was a naturalized citizen. Now charges were filed against the older brother and his girlfriend (now his wife) dropped them. He then left the country for 6 months to go to an area that we know houses terrorism. coupled with the Russian warning, why the hell was he allowed back into the country? I mean shouldn't the door have been closed on him if for no other reason then formal charges were filed. A green card does not give you rights, you are in this country at the favor of the state dept not as a right


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Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Ebbie
Date: 21 Apr 13 - 03:31 PM

Miranda rights are for the purpose of informing the individual that "anything he says or does may be held against him in a court of law."

I would guess if the individual gives accurate information to law enforcement of something poised to cause imminent danger to the populace, that even if that information cannot be brought against him in court, they would present other means of finding him culpable.


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Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Ebbie
Date: 21 Apr 13 - 03:27 PM

It has been explained that there is provision made in the Miranda law to temporarily suspend the law when there is danger of a cell or another individual poised to cause imminent harm or when the possibility exists that the individual has boobytrapped a location.

When that fear has been negated, then the individual must be read his Miranda rights.

Makes sense to me. In fact, it makes more sense to me than a rigid knee jerk law that takes no account of existing situations.


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Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 21 Apr 13 - 03:17 PM

someone has to define that term to me also Mcgrath. I don't understand what the rules are. I thought it was just for enemies captured on foreign soil or non citizens ... I dunno. It is also evident that the FBI may have dropped the ball on the warning in 2011 by Russia


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Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: pdq
Date: 21 Apr 13 - 03:02 PM

The United States Oath of Allegiance (officially referred to as the "Oath of Allegiance," 8 C.F.R. Part 337 (2008))...


"I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen; that I will support and defend the Constitution and laws of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I will bear arms on behalf of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform :noncombatant service in the Armed Forces of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform work of national importance under civilian direction when required by the law; and that I take this obligation freely without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; so help me God."


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Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Apr 13 - 02:57 PM

I can't imagine that when someone is capture after being shot in the head there can be any question of making a formal arrest with a "Miranda warning" while he is lying there unconscious.

As for the term "enemy combatant" which simultaneously excludes any rights as a civilian or as a soldier, has it ever been defined?
...................
One puzzling thing about all this has been constant statement from the President and others about how it demonstrated that it was impossible to terrorize Americans, when it appears pretty evident that that was precisely what happened, with the whole city of Boston in lockdown for an extended period because of one man on the run.

That doesn't impy that it might have been a reasonable decision - though it's worth noting that it was only when the lockdown was lifted that the fugitive was found by a householder, not by the police.


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Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 21 Apr 13 - 02:53 PM

I have 100% confidence in the system. There is no need to do that foreign combatant stuff here. It will only make a firestorm support for him in other countries. He will be tried and punished in the US federal court if they are smart and stop talking about foreign combatant stuff.


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Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 21 Apr 13 - 02:45 PM

pdq-
Any evidence that he was lying? Last I heard, he was unable to speak.
And it strikes me that denaturalization, without a trial and conviction, is just as unconstitutanal And just as scary.


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Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: pdq
Date: 21 Apr 13 - 02:31 PM

Any naturalized citizen can be stripped of their citizenship for simply lying on the application form.

Most cases have involved people who committed in crimes during WWII or were high ranking Nazis.

Recently, many Muslims have been quietly denaturalized and sent back home due to their terrorist connections.


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Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 21 Apr 13 - 02:30 PM

He should be treated in the same way as they treated Ted Kaczynski


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Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: michaelr
Date: 21 Apr 13 - 02:07 PM

Alan Dershovitz is quoted as saying, "This is an American citizen being tried for a crime that occurred domestically, and there is simply no (legal) way to treat him as an enemy combatant - not even close." I agree. No matter how much we despise the man and his actions, justice must be served according to the laws of the land.

Perhaps more troubling is the revelation that the Russian government had in 2011 asked the FBI for information about the older brother, Tamerlan (who did not acquire US citizenship), apparently out of concern about possible terrorist connections he formed while spending six months in Chechnya or Dagestan. The Russians feared that "he could be a risk, and they had something on him and were concerned about him travelling to their region." But the FBI never followed up on Tamerlan once he returned.


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Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 21 Apr 13 - 01:30 PM

One of the more interesting --and troubling---aspect of this ghastly affair id the eagerness of some authorities (notable McCain) to insist on ignoring the constitutional rights of the accused younger brother (a US citizen). No Miranda warning. No presumption of innocence. An insistence that he be treated, not as an accused criminal, but as a "enemy combatant" in some undeclared war.
    The idea that it's necessary to ignore the Constitution in order to protect it is, to me, a very scary one.


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Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: olddude
Date: 21 Apr 13 - 12:31 PM

Ebbie he was for sure. Even had a triggering device, when his brother ran him over, he dragged his brother under the car for several hundred yards. It was fortunate the guy didn't have a chance to engage the bomb or we would have lost two or more officers.

In a gun fight the average hit rate for a police officer is around 25%. A navy seal or a guy like Rapparee is probably in the high 90%. We have to train our officers in more combat situations or we will lose our very brave officers who put their life in the line of fire.


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Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Ebbie
Date: 21 Apr 13 - 12:24 PM

There are so many conflicting stories. I hadn't heard the police-chief account, Dan. They have said that the older suspect was wearing a suicide belt- not true?


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Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: olddude
Date: 21 Apr 13 - 12:19 PM

One thing for sure is the cops need a lot of firearm training again. The police chief was talking how the older one walked towards the officers within ten feet, while they were exchanging fire. He ran out of ammo, the cops tackled him and then his brother ran him over which killed him. Now you can be a really good shot but when the heat of the battle occurs you forget your training, that is what leads to getting killed. I suggest more combat training for the officers if only to protect themselves and I hope other police forces do the same. The chief said around 200 rounds were fired all in all


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Subject: RE: BS: Explosions at Boston Marathon
From: Stringsinger
Date: 21 Apr 13 - 11:28 AM

"While this is all very sad, and regrettable, I wonder, why all the fuss?"

It's because we have engendered in the US a culture of violence which spills over to
terrorist activities. The guns on the street have a correlation with the bombing incidents because it has become permissible to accept violence as something that no one can do anything about. It's a religious dictum that has to do with the "depravity of man".

If war is inevitable, it follows that violence is considered a human proclivity that is inherent.

I wholeheartedly disagree with this view. Until the culture of violence is rejected, there will be further unnecessary incidents like Boston. To cliche it: "We are better than this".


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