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BS: Are fewer people posting?

Dave the Gnome 29 Mar 13 - 02:53 PM
GUEST,Eliza 29 Mar 13 - 03:09 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 29 Mar 13 - 03:13 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 29 Mar 13 - 03:20 PM
Jack the Sailor 29 Mar 13 - 03:44 PM
Joybell 29 Mar 13 - 04:30 PM
Dave the Gnome 29 Mar 13 - 04:57 PM
John MacKenzie 29 Mar 13 - 05:06 PM
Jack the Sailor 29 Mar 13 - 05:12 PM
Bettynh 29 Mar 13 - 05:17 PM
The Sandman 29 Mar 13 - 05:20 PM
Rapparee 29 Mar 13 - 05:41 PM
Ed T 29 Mar 13 - 06:05 PM
gnu 29 Mar 13 - 06:07 PM
GUEST,Peter 29 Mar 13 - 06:12 PM
ranger1 29 Mar 13 - 06:36 PM
Janie 29 Mar 13 - 07:14 PM
GUEST,olddude 29 Mar 13 - 07:30 PM
gnu 29 Mar 13 - 07:51 PM
Jack the Sailor 29 Mar 13 - 08:15 PM
gnu 29 Mar 13 - 08:28 PM
Janie 29 Mar 13 - 08:33 PM
JohnInKansas 29 Mar 13 - 11:02 PM
Bill D 29 Mar 13 - 11:04 PM
Joe Offer 30 Mar 13 - 02:17 AM
John MacKenzie 30 Mar 13 - 05:53 AM
GUEST,CS 30 Mar 13 - 06:13 AM
GUEST,CS 30 Mar 13 - 06:18 AM
GUEST,Eliza 30 Mar 13 - 06:48 AM
John MacKenzie 30 Mar 13 - 07:18 AM
ranger1 30 Mar 13 - 07:21 AM
Pete Jennings 30 Mar 13 - 07:29 AM
Will Fly 30 Mar 13 - 07:37 AM
ollaimh 30 Mar 13 - 09:26 AM
Dave the Gnome 30 Mar 13 - 10:02 AM
Dave the Gnome 30 Mar 13 - 10:05 AM
Wesley S 30 Mar 13 - 10:52 AM
katlaughing 30 Mar 13 - 11:48 AM
Q (Frank Staplin) 30 Mar 13 - 11:59 AM
Dave the Gnome 30 Mar 13 - 12:38 PM
Jack the Sailor 30 Mar 13 - 01:06 PM
GUEST,DDT 30 Mar 13 - 04:38 PM
John MacKenzie 30 Mar 13 - 04:56 PM
Joe Offer 30 Mar 13 - 05:22 PM
Joe Offer 30 Mar 13 - 05:35 PM
GUEST,.gargoyle 30 Mar 13 - 07:15 PM
Will Fly 30 Mar 13 - 07:31 PM
Joe Offer 30 Mar 13 - 07:35 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 30 Mar 13 - 07:59 PM
Jack the Sailor 30 Mar 13 - 08:10 PM
The Sandman 30 Mar 13 - 08:20 PM
Bill D 30 Mar 13 - 09:04 PM
Charley Noble 30 Mar 13 - 10:51 PM
MGM·Lion 31 Mar 13 - 02:45 AM
Joe Offer 31 Mar 13 - 03:47 AM
MGM·Lion 31 Mar 13 - 04:24 AM
John MacKenzie 31 Mar 13 - 05:12 AM
GUEST 31 Mar 13 - 12:09 PM
GUEST,Lizzie Cornish 31 Mar 13 - 12:10 PM
John MacKenzie 31 Mar 13 - 01:15 PM
akenaton 31 Mar 13 - 01:15 PM
Janie 31 Mar 13 - 03:18 PM
The Sandman 31 Mar 13 - 03:55 PM
Dave the Gnome 31 Mar 13 - 04:05 PM
Dave the Gnome 31 Mar 13 - 04:10 PM
The Sandman 31 Mar 13 - 05:30 PM
Doug Chadwick 31 Mar 13 - 07:21 PM
Ed T 31 Mar 13 - 08:07 PM
GUEST,Chongo Chimp 01 Apr 13 - 01:51 AM
GUEST,Ralphie 01 Apr 13 - 02:01 AM
Jack the Sailor 01 Apr 13 - 02:06 AM
Joe Offer 01 Apr 13 - 04:02 AM
GUEST,Eliza 01 Apr 13 - 05:39 AM
Dave the Gnome 01 Apr 13 - 05:41 AM
The Sandman 01 Apr 13 - 06:07 AM
Dave the Gnome 01 Apr 13 - 06:51 AM
Doug Chadwick 01 Apr 13 - 07:12 AM
The Sandman 01 Apr 13 - 07:44 AM
John MacKenzie 01 Apr 13 - 08:53 AM
number 6 01 Apr 13 - 09:59 AM
Bill D 01 Apr 13 - 10:37 AM
theleveller 01 Apr 13 - 10:52 AM
The Sandman 01 Apr 13 - 11:35 AM
John MacKenzie 01 Apr 13 - 12:24 PM
GUEST,Chongo Chimp 01 Apr 13 - 12:55 PM
Dave the Gnome 01 Apr 13 - 12:57 PM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Apr 13 - 12:58 PM
Dave the Gnome 01 Apr 13 - 01:11 PM
John MacKenzie 01 Apr 13 - 01:11 PM
Megan L 01 Apr 13 - 01:12 PM
John MacKenzie 01 Apr 13 - 01:20 PM
GUEST,Chongo Chimp 01 Apr 13 - 01:54 PM
Megan L 01 Apr 13 - 02:01 PM
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akenaton 01 Apr 13 - 02:16 PM
Ed T 01 Apr 13 - 02:30 PM
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MGM·Lion 01 Apr 13 - 05:23 PM
The Sandman 01 Apr 13 - 05:27 PM
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John MacKenzie 02 Apr 13 - 05:08 AM
The Sandman 02 Apr 13 - 05:12 AM
Megan L 02 Apr 13 - 05:17 AM
GUEST,Peter Laban 02 Apr 13 - 05:21 AM
Dave the Gnome 02 Apr 13 - 06:18 AM
Big Al Whittle 02 Apr 13 - 06:21 AM
John MacKenzie 02 Apr 13 - 06:27 AM
Doug Chadwick 02 Apr 13 - 07:51 AM
Dave the Gnome 02 Apr 13 - 08:22 AM
Mr Happy 02 Apr 13 - 09:53 AM
The Sandman 02 Apr 13 - 10:09 AM
GUEST,Peter Laban 02 Apr 13 - 10:11 AM
The Sandman 02 Apr 13 - 10:23 AM
GUEST,Peter Laban 02 Apr 13 - 10:54 AM
Doug Chadwick 02 Apr 13 - 11:10 AM
The Sandman 02 Apr 13 - 11:14 AM
GUEST,Peter Laban 02 Apr 13 - 11:17 AM
John MacKenzie 02 Apr 13 - 11:44 AM
Jerry Rasmussen 02 Apr 13 - 12:14 PM
Vic Smith 02 Apr 13 - 12:29 PM
John MacKenzie 02 Apr 13 - 01:29 PM
The Sandman 02 Apr 13 - 01:42 PM
Dave the Gnome 02 Apr 13 - 01:45 PM
GUEST,Peter Laban 02 Apr 13 - 02:02 PM
GUEST,Spleen Cringe 02 Apr 13 - 02:09 PM
MartinRyan 02 Apr 13 - 02:16 PM
The Sandman 02 Apr 13 - 02:40 PM
GUEST,Peter Laban 02 Apr 13 - 02:52 PM
Richard Bridge 02 Apr 13 - 02:57 PM
Jerry Rasmussen 02 Apr 13 - 03:03 PM
GUEST,Stim 02 Apr 13 - 04:11 PM
John MacKenzie 02 Apr 13 - 04:15 PM
Dave the Gnome 02 Apr 13 - 04:57 PM
The Sandman 02 Apr 13 - 05:12 PM
GUEST,Ralphie 02 Apr 13 - 05:38 PM
MGM·Lion 02 Apr 13 - 06:03 PM
The Sandman 02 Apr 13 - 06:17 PM
Richard Bridge 02 Apr 13 - 07:23 PM
Dave the Gnome 03 Apr 13 - 01:45 AM
MGM·Lion 03 Apr 13 - 02:58 AM
akenaton 03 Apr 13 - 03:35 AM
Dave the Gnome 03 Apr 13 - 04:28 AM
The Sandman 03 Apr 13 - 05:05 AM
Mr Happy 03 Apr 13 - 05:40 AM
Dave the Gnome 03 Apr 13 - 05:51 AM
Vic Smith 03 Apr 13 - 06:03 AM
Dave the Gnome 03 Apr 13 - 06:22 AM
Richard Bridge 03 Apr 13 - 06:26 AM
Richard Bridge 03 Apr 13 - 06:27 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 03 Apr 13 - 07:35 AM
John MacKenzie 03 Apr 13 - 07:38 AM
GUEST,Peter 03 Apr 13 - 07:47 AM
number 6 03 Apr 13 - 08:41 AM
Dave the Gnome 03 Apr 13 - 08:46 AM
John MacKenzie 03 Apr 13 - 08:54 AM
GUEST,Lizzie Cornish 03 Apr 13 - 10:19 AM
Dave the Gnome 03 Apr 13 - 11:04 AM
Jeri 03 Apr 13 - 11:28 AM
The Sandman 03 Apr 13 - 11:53 AM
The Sandman 03 Apr 13 - 12:03 PM
Dave the Gnome 03 Apr 13 - 12:57 PM
GUEST,Ralphie 03 Apr 13 - 01:56 PM
Little Hawk 03 Apr 13 - 01:59 PM
Little Hawk 03 Apr 13 - 02:02 PM
Dave the Gnome 03 Apr 13 - 02:24 PM
GUEST,Ralphie 03 Apr 13 - 03:10 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 03 Apr 13 - 03:10 PM
Little Hawk 03 Apr 13 - 05:43 PM
The Sandman 03 Apr 13 - 08:04 PM
GUEST,surreysinger sans cookie 03 Apr 13 - 10:00 PM
Dave the Gnome 04 Apr 13 - 05:30 AM
GUEST,Lizzie Cornish 04 Apr 13 - 06:28 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 04 Apr 13 - 06:35 AM
Dave the Gnome 04 Apr 13 - 07:35 AM
Dave the Gnome 04 Apr 13 - 07:44 AM
The Sandman 04 Apr 13 - 08:46 AM
theleveller 04 Apr 13 - 09:19 AM
Little Hawk 04 Apr 13 - 10:33 AM
GUEST,The Ghost of Corridus 04 Apr 13 - 10:45 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Apr 13 - 11:11 AM
MartinRyan 04 Apr 13 - 12:29 PM
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Subject: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Mar 13 - 02:53 PM

From another thread -

And you wonder WHY so few people post to Mudcat any longer????????

Is this true? I don't see it myself but I am willing to learn! If so - What has brought it about? Suggestions? Ideas?

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 29 Mar 13 - 03:09 PM

Hello Dave! Can you poss give the context of the above quote? What was the poster commenting on exactly? I haven't been a contributor for all that long, but at first it seemed a lovely forum for interesting discussions and thought-provoking ideas. However, there seems to have been lately a degeneration into nastiness and outright bullying which sits ill with the general ethos of friendliness and respectful exchange of opinions. I feel it's only half a dozen or so who take over threads and slug it out between them, firing insults and vituperative venom at eachother and viciously attacking innocent participants caught in the crossfire. I imagine this would put people off returning to post. There are nonetheless still so many delightful, intelligent and interesting folk here that I enjoy Mudcat and value my fellow posters as if they were friends.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 29 Mar 13 - 03:13 PM

I know several who are disgruntled, refuse to donate money, or who have stopped contributing. Can't comment on numbers; they may be few.

Several reasons- The stupid posts below the Belt, disagreement with Max, questionable or seeming selective censoring of posts.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 29 Mar 13 - 03:20 PM

Eliza covers one of the points I give above quite well. Nastiness, the ignorance and bullying by some, seems to have increased to a danger point.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 29 Mar 13 - 03:44 PM

IMHO, The website is a dinosaur. Clunky, slow, unreliable with less than optimal management tools. It may have been state of the art when I started posting 12 years ago, but any improvements seem to have been cosmetic. It is hard for me to justify to myself paying Max to house servers and t1s and whatnot, when we could all just move to a cloud based service, faster, fully reliable, with lots of forum friendly features for next to free.

I don't think there are fewer posters, There do seem to be fewer posts. Not as many topics interest me as before and several of the catters I used to come here to read have switched to Facebook and I touch base with them there.

Eliza, I said to Larry Saidman, that 2 % of the members make 80% of the noise. Certainly, you and I had a recent conversation which was, to put it kindly, heckled. That happened for two reasons, a value of this forum is free exchange and minimal censorship, which is a very good thing, and the moderation is unstructured and a little inconsistent. But though I recognize that, I am simply pointing it out and NOT complaining, because it is volunteer and even if I thought I could do better, I don't have the patience or the times.

IMHO I think that it is inevitable that people will slip away from this group. Max obviously does not have the resources to compete with Facebook, and even middle aged fogies like me lose interest after the same topics have been debated more than 5 times. We are not exactly a draw for the youth.

I certainly don't agree with the implied premise of this. "And you wonder WHY so few people post to Mudcat any longer????????" People have not decreased their number of posts because other people are arguing. People have always argued here. In fact the current lack of arguments about the forum itself is a relief and a blessing. Posting has declined because though the love their friends here, people have found other ways to express themselves and other things to do.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: Joybell
Date: 29 Mar 13 - 04:30 PM

I haven't been able to get in for nearly a month for some reason. Might be my server. We have problems with some other sites too. I still prefer Mudcat to Facebook and the like.
Joy


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Mar 13 - 04:57 PM

Interesting point's one and all. Yes, I do know of some people who will not visit any more because of the way a small handful create havoc. Yet those who have left are a tiny proportion compared to the whole Mudcat population. I cannot really give the context without being accused of nastiness myself but suffice it to say the poster gave the comment instead of being able to provide a cohesive argument. Basically - They threw their toys out of the pram! I was willing to believe that the comment was true if it had any justification, but it appears not to have to date.

Does anyone have the facts and figures for the number of posts and posters now compared to, say, 12 months ago?

Cheers

Dave


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 29 Mar 13 - 05:06 PM

Someone probably has, but I don't think we'll find out what they are. I run Adblock, as do others, and I believe the ads need to be clicked regularly to give the site cred, and/or income, with Google, or whoever.
So that would be a telling factor.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 29 Mar 13 - 05:12 PM

"Yes, I do know of some people who will not visit any more because of the way a small handful create havoc."

I can't say it has always been that way. I can say that it has been that way on this forum for a at least 12 years.

And this "Basically - They threw their toys out of the pram!" is a very nice way to describe that behavior in leaving this forum and others I have posted to.

No format, certainly no format that allows free debate pleases everyone. People come people go. People who are displeased with the rancor can avoid certain threads and avoid certain topics. Many do.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: Bettynh
Date: 29 Mar 13 - 05:17 PM

Posting and contacting are different, aren't they? Max gave us this link to the heartbeat of Mudcat. Lots of folks looking up lyrics or just checking in. Many believe is you can't say something nice don't say anything at all. ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Mar 13 - 05:20 PM

I think this is the best forum, facebook is useful but there are too many posts about what i had for breakfast, this is a good music forum through this forum i very recently came across this helpful you tube clip http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4DWcpYOQM0


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: Rapparee
Date: 29 Mar 13 - 05:41 PM

You mean like Martin Gibson and a few others? They were tossed out. Others haven't published because they are too busy or for other, personal, reasons unrelated to nasties.

I'm not interested in whether "Obamacare" is genocide or what to do about guns in the US. Neither problem will be solved here, no minds will be changed here, and nearly all of these sorts of things have been talked to death.

So I only post where it looks like it might be interesting: Experimental Philosophy, MOAB, etc. If I want a nasty argument or a fight I can go to several bars around here.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: Ed T
Date: 29 Mar 13 - 06:05 PM

When was the last time anyone saw an original idea/concept in the ever emerging religious and Israel-Palistinian threads? (individuals sniping at each other does not count).


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: gnu
Date: 29 Mar 13 - 06:07 PM

"Max obviously does not have the resources to compete with Facebook"

Oh yes he does... yer here ain'tchya?

And I am here and I am behind Max and Art and Rap and Severn and 9 and Big Mick and Nigel and kat and LEJ and olddude and Kendall and SINS and Bobert and SiX and Jts and.... at least a few hundred others over my dozen years here. There are far more than that that I don't know or whose threads/posts I haven't even read but this Cafι reaches even further.

Resources? I'll aftta pick da bones outta dat fish an see if I can get n down me troat me love.

JtS... >;-) You know I mean that in a good way, lad. I coulda said, "Ahem! I beg to differ, kind sir." But, I is a Herring Choker and ye is a Newfie so's yeees unnerstan me... eh? Kinda like we was inna kitchen?


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: GUEST,Peter
Date: 29 Mar 13 - 06:12 PM

I don't know about Mudcat but other forums that I visit do seem to be on the decline. Perhaps all the missing people are tweeting instead.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: ranger1
Date: 29 Mar 13 - 06:36 PM

I lurk more and post less. I rarely post above the line due to the general snarkiness I have met with there. I also know a couple of young (as in under 20) people who dropped in, joined, and left because of the general unfriendliness and lack of respect they encountered.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: Janie
Date: 29 Mar 13 - 07:14 PM

I do think the advent of facebook and other on-line forums has resulted in people being drawn away from the below the line section. The BS section has shrunk considerably, and the threads that used to build and reinforce community don't happen so often and have fewer participants. I know more about what is going on in the lives of others from Mudcat now from Facebook than from here. While most of the BS threads now seem to consist of a few voices fighting the same old arguments, I don't think it is so much that 'Catters have been driven away as it is a process of evolution and dilution as the rest of the web has sort of caught up with Max's original genius.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 29 Mar 13 - 07:30 PM

well there is no shortage of posts insulting others faith or political convictions. that doesn't lend to friendship or a desire to continue contribuing


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: gnu
Date: 29 Mar 13 - 07:51 PM

Well said, Janie, and others... but anyone who has been here for a dozen years or more knows it is spring. Think about that for a minute and all will become known to except a few. Been HERE, done it... got a Tshirt, a bunch of CDs, DVDs...

THREAD DRIFT!!!! ... but NO FUCKIN HAT! WHAT DO I HAVE TO DO TO GET A FUCKIN HAT???? JAYSUS, MAX!!! FOR THE UMPTEETH TIME... WHERE ARE YOUR MARKETING SKILLS?

Okay, let me calm down and try thread drift in a constructive manner. What's the average age of members? It's BALD for at least half fer *****sakes! It's not rocket science, Max... is it? Now... Tshirts? What's the average age of members? YOU might look good in a Tshirt but do you REALLY wanna see me and ***** and ******* and any of the eldery other Mudcatters in Tshirts? I thought not. So... get yet yer shit together and get us some FUCKIN HATS!

Otherwise, we just all might wear our Tshirts in public and what would that say about The Mudcat Cafι?

Thread drift over. Move on. Nothing to read here.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 29 Mar 13 - 08:15 PM

"I rarely post above the line due to the general snarkiness"

Do you mean below?


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: gnu
Date: 29 Mar 13 - 08:28 PM

JtS... she might. And I know how it feels. >;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: Janie
Date: 29 Mar 13 - 08:33 PM

Mudcat falls under the rubric of social networking, but not all social networks are communities. I don't have a sense of community on Facebook like I still have here, though I realize it is a shrinking community. Lots of factors go into that shrinkage. We are aging. Many of us are scrapping so hard to keep jobs that we don't have time to hang out, new members don't come along to renew and refresh ideas and conversations. Familiarity breeds contempt, as well as a tendency to pigeon hole and not listen to one another. Same thing happens in small, insular rural communities that either die or grow and change.

I think Mudcat will be here a long, long time as a continuing folk music resource and forum - that is what it was originally designed to be, as I understand it. I only came along in 2002 so am not one of the "old timers." Time passes. Lots of things change. I don't think the community that exists here will go away anytime soon. It is not the social community it once was, and probably never will be again, because things change. It may eventually evolve into another kind of social community. Who knows?

Mudcat as a social community reflects larger social trends. Change happens. Whether it is evolution or de-evolution is to a certain extent a matter of perspective. Viewing it from the standpoint of bonafide social community, Mudcat seems to me to be dying. It may be like a phoenix however, that arises from it's ashes. Might not look like the phoenix that burned, however.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 29 Mar 13 - 11:02 PM

Recently when I had occasion to look for an older thread that had "dropped off" I did a refresh, no filter, one year, and noted that there were a lot more threads returned from "above the line" than from the BS section. This seems to be somewhat contrary to the opinion expressed in other recent threads on the subject, but I haven't repeated the experiment to see whether it's a consistent result.

A possible explanation is that "BS threads last longer," maybe because so many of them degenerate into mutual abuse that "goes on forever" with one or two (?) bullies posting just often enough to keep them alive and stinking, while most music questions/discussions are fairly quickly terminated and replaced by new subjects.

It should be noted that loading "everything" (i.e. searching a long time back) does place some extra burden on the 'cat's server, so frequent use of "way-back refreshes" should be deprecated and used only when actually needed.

Also note that there is a limit on how many returns are displayed, so refreshing "a long time back" without a specific filter word/phrase to limit the number of "hits" does not necessarily produce a longer list than a more reasonable time span - so don't bother unless you need to.

[Refreshing "all the way back" will not get you the first surviving post at mudcat ... Certified ... Guaranteed ... Assured ... Promised ... and sworn to by reliable sources.]

John


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Mar 13 - 11:04 PM

Having been here almost from the first..(Nov,1996) I have watched all the changes. I used to be a serious source for information for Folk Music.... but withing a few years, there were many, many more who knew far more than I, and within 6-10 years there were so many songs posted and questions answered that Mudcat was one of the most complete and eclectic sites on the WWW. Then Google found us, and now a serious search for lyrics or answers brings up a Mudcat thread. .... I have done a Google search on some song, only to find the basic answer in a thread *I* had forgotten I started a few years before.

So... the resource is worth preserving no matter what 'problems' some folks seem to have with the format, the posters or the topics which often arise.
This place has become an extended family, with many, many distant cousins and drop-ins... and like any family, there are quiet members, loud members, resilient members, 'thin-skinned' members...and everything in between.

The BS area allows those who don't care to debate politics or religion, etc., to just browse music threads.... while allowing some of the freest discussion on odd topics (or non-sequitur non-topics) to be found anywhere. Sure... some folks are ...ummmm... 'focused', to put it politely, on certain opinions and topics. At a live, real party, one can just shake their heads and walk away when a discussion gets beyond their comfort level- as they (usually) don't want to say what they feel to someone's face. Here (and online in general) people often feel a lot less restricted..(maybe because no one can take a swing at them...or maybe because they are almost totally anonymous.)

No easy answer to those who wish that "people would just try to get along" and restrain themselves. It is what it is... we have tried serious editing and controls, and we have tried almost no editing or censorship.... and you know what? No system pleased everyone! The worst problems have gradually been alleviated (you mean you haven't noticed??) Where were you 5-8 years ago?

I am here.... I read and post 'some' to music threads, and join some of the BS discussions. I will stay here, trying to offer my ideas and opinions without being offensive or making enemies.
Max says (I have spoken to him several times in person about this) that he intends to keep Mudcat alive for its main purpose (the database)and allow the members to make of the forum what they will. So far, the good has FAR outweighed the bad... and I am betting that IF fewer people post, it won't affect the larger purpose much at all!


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 30 Mar 13 - 02:17 AM

Let's see if I can get this table to post. I recorded the number of the last message from March 1 of every year, and from that I subtracted the number of the last message of the previous year. That should give us a year-end total number of messages for every year. Here goes:
    Year last msg on March 1 Year total
    2013 3485316 169367
    2012 3315949 210602
    2011 3105347 251607
    2010 2853740 274743
    2009 2578997 301905
    2008 2277092 293565
    2007 1983527 300601
    2006 1682926 258334
    2005 1424592 297175
    2004 1127417 225958
    2003 901459 240297
    2002 661162 251891
    2001 409271 221337
    2000 187934 126971
    1999 60963 38266
    1998 22697 19991
    1997 2706 2706
Yes, it does look like a drop in the year ending 1 March 2013. Up until then, the number was over 200,000 for twelve years. Dropping to 169,000 certainly isn't the end of the world, but it's a significant drop. Of course, it could be that we have a lower number of messages because Max has instituted better Spam controls. We used to have huge numbers of Spam messages every day, and I don't see as much any more.
-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 30 Mar 13 - 05:53 AM

Well if you insist on, and even boast about, an 'anything goes' forum, then you're never gonna stop disrespect. I have always said, and will continue to say till my dieing breath (Won't be long now folks, just be patient) This forum needs judicious editing, especially below the line. Not all GUESTS are bad, but in general, below the line, they ain't good.
Even if only on the grounds of good taste, a lot of the shit down here could go, and wouldn't be missed.
Me, I'm just a free loader, done my time, paid my dues, got my DD.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 30 Mar 13 - 06:13 AM

one of the great things about mudcat is that information on anything is always available super quick too - people know and share or they go out of their way to help you find out. yes there are people who squabble, it gets tiresome if an otherwise informative and interesting topic gets dominated by personal feuds and name-calling but I just scroll on through.. from Joes post, it seems that posts hit a high in 2007 and have dropped to nearly half that in the intervening six years, I think that's a significant fall and it doesn't bode well in the long term - hopefully that drop will find a level and stay there rather than continue southward, this forum is so much more interesting than a social network it's an information resource and a seriously good one.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 30 Mar 13 - 06:18 AM

more interesting than a social network [like Facebook]


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 30 Mar 13 - 06:48 AM

Not all the religious topics here have been responded to with a lack of respect. I asked for advice and reaction to a religious matter not too long ago, and many people responded with a lot of wisdom and insight. There wasn't one single nasty post, and I found the advice helpful and supportive. I don't myself get too upset by vicious attack; it's only words on a screen and one has the option of looking at something else, the Net is endless. And I uphold the rights of even the most ghastly Troll to have his/her say. I do draw the line at obscenity and dreadful swear words (so unnecessary) but there's very little of that here. Censorship should IMO only be used in dire circumstances. I've been quite under the weather for a few weeks, and I wonder if others have been too, and not felt up to posting? It's been a wickedly bad winter, and folk are at their last gasp round here in Norfolk. Maybe that might explain a falling-off of contributors? (Temporary I hope!)


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 30 Mar 13 - 07:18 AM

Were you wondering if things are flat all over, Eliza? Not just in Norfolk. ;)


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: ranger1
Date: 30 Mar 13 - 07:21 AM

JtS: I certainly did mean above the line. And I know of two young people (under 20) who joined and quit because of the nasty way they were treated when they tried to discuss things in the music section.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: Pete Jennings
Date: 30 Mar 13 - 07:29 AM

Well, a quick check shows that I've been here since November 2001 and I've never felt the need to go anywhere else. What's more, whilst I check in most days, I've only posted 1022 times (well, make that 1023!), so I'm not convinced that the number of posts is a meaningful measure of Mudcat's value, certainly not to me anyway.

Obviously some of the crap-flinging is irritating but, hey, once a thread goes bad you can always just ignore it...

My tuppence worth.

Pete.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: Will Fly
Date: 30 Mar 13 - 07:37 AM

I occasionally post below the line, but many of the topics just appear to involve two or three people calling each other names, refusing to see each others points of view, never changing their minds and being utterly BORING. If the number of posts of that sort lessens, all to the good, say I.

The "Old Pocket Watches" thread is, of course, essential to a life of well-being...

There's also occasional shit-stirring above the line, but it's the place to be for those of that have a a love of music. I've been done several kindnesses by 'Catters - tunes traced, instruments lent, etc. And also met some lovely people. That's what Mudcat is about.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: ollaimh
Date: 30 Mar 13 - 09:26 AM

gee dave I have seen you be on a continuous jag of personal insults against one individual , which were totally unwarranted. gnu, I have seen you mainly post how angry you are and rarely poat anything of knowledge, q I have seen you post things about natives that would have been found in der sturmer(the Nazi magazine), and joe stops any discussion of real Nazis and is an apologist for child rapists. I wonder why people aren't posting?

you used to have many educated(often selfeducated--and very well sefl educated) people in folk, now we have the spawn of the neo cons. many seem to have absorbed neo con ideas with no awareness that they are living a contradiction, but most are comfortable joining the ranks of the civilization destroyers.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Mar 13 - 10:02 AM

Yes - there certainly is a drop then! Thanks for the research, Joe. I think it is probably a number of factors. Maybe the lack of spelling and grammar could be one of them? Or the racism shown against the English by some folk? Or the lack of cohesive or sensible argument? I think it is probably a combination of all these plus Facebook plus people using their time more carefully.

Thanks for the input again. Keep the ideas going :-)

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Mar 13 - 10:05 AM

Oh - One thing struck me as I hit submit. There are fewer posts but are there fewer posters? Is it that less people are posting or are there as many or more people posting less often?

No probs if there is no easy way of knowing, Joe, but it would be interesting. Well, to us sad nerds anyway :-)

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: Wesley S
Date: 30 Mar 13 - 10:52 AM

You'll notice that the number of posts dropped dramatically after we agreed on a definition of "folk music".


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: katlaughing
Date: 30 Mar 13 - 11:48 AM

LMAO...good one, Wesley.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 30 Mar 13 - 11:59 AM

Wesley, who is this "we"? I don't agree with anything.

(For some who post here (they never have anything to say that has anything to do with music, "folk" or otherwise), your statement could be the start of a nasty exchange, but the sun riz this morning and my mood is better than usual.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Mar 13 - 12:38 PM

Yea, Ok, but what's a definition? Is it the traditional one or more contemporary?

:D tG


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 30 Mar 13 - 01:06 PM

You know this thread contains just about everything that is good about the Mudcat, well written opinions, humor, humour, information, and friendship.

It will be OK here in BS as long as we can do this.

ranger1 what you said about above the line is disturbing. IMHO If it is to remain the resources it has been the new rules Max posted need to be strictly adhered to. I don't know how much effort it would take to bring that about. But letting the music information section devolve into the free for all in BS, is not a viable option.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: GUEST,DDT
Date: 30 Mar 13 - 04:38 PM

I just lurk now. The only use I have for mudcat is that it has some old threads that are interesting. I have no interest in the new threads. After being attacked for no reason after starting a thread on Art Tatum, I will never again start a topic here. But I do like looking through the old threads.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 30 Mar 13 - 04:56 PM

Well DDT, this is typical of the closed mind attitude that shows up on Mudcat all too often.
Art Tatum isn't to my taste, although I can appreciate his musicianship.
However, what happens on here sometimes is the, "You're talking shit" or the "He's crap, and BTW this is a folk music site" etc etc.
People are so intolerant, and because of this sites insistence on allowing free speech, whether it makes sense, or not,that alienates people who, don't know that they allow idiots to post on here, unfettered, too.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 30 Mar 13 - 05:22 PM

I haven't figured out a way to determine the number of posters we have. We get about one new member a day, maybe less. I've been processing our membership applications since August 2011. That weeds out duplicate and fraudulent memberships.

Let's see....I registered member number 26416 on 17 March 2013, and #26227 on 16 March 2012. That's 189 new members in a year and a day. I've also had a lot of membership applications from existing members who forgot they were registered, so that's a few more back in the fold.

I also get a lot of membership requests from people who don't return the membership form I send to them, so I always wonder about them. I suppose I lose track of a membership application now and then, but I sure hope that doesn't happen often.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 30 Mar 13 - 05:35 PM

P.S. to DDT:
Mudcat is the main Website I go to for music information. If somebody has something to say about Art Tatum, I want to see it here. Hey, I might learn something. And if I really have reason not to want to know about Art Tatum, then I have the option of not opening the thread.
But since Day One, we've had self-appointed censors who want to dictate what appears on Mudcat and what does not.

What was the name of our first Mudcat Folk Police Officer? Ah, Elsie was her name. She lasted about five months, February to August 1997. I wonder what happened to her.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 30 Mar 13 - 07:15 PM

Dear JackTheSailor......

Would you please post the link for " the new rules Max " presented.

I have skimmed through the past Six weeks .... and I find no new rules from Max.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

<< I always a law abiding citizen....if the popeish, prince of paupers has made a declaration...I need to know.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: Will Fly
Date: 30 Mar 13 - 07:31 PM

Hey Joe (no, not the POP song), thanks for that "Elsie" link. What gloriously frustrated posts! Shame she isn't around today - it would be great fun to wrassle with her, verbally of course.

Looks like "Mr. Sandman" was her Maginot Line - and it's a great tune as well. I'll be playing it as part of our jazz set next Sunday...


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 30 Mar 13 - 07:35 PM

The new rules have been on the Membership Page since August, 2011.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 30 Mar 13 - 07:59 PM

Elsie and Mr. Sandman. I haven't heard that song in years, and mention of it brought it back. Now it will be an earworm. Will Fly, stick to watches!


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 30 Mar 13 - 08:10 PM

Thanks Joe.

Garg, Joe told me about the changes.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Mar 13 - 08:20 PM

Gargoyle,is at least still with/against us, I am never quite sure which, but he /she certainly is not sitting on the fence.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: Bill D
Date: 30 Mar 13 - 09:04 PM

Wow.Re-reading some of those old threads and remarks sure brings back memories of missing comrades. I was in sympathy with Elsie and made my own futile attempts to argue for a narrower view, and I see I missed several very telling posts by Barry Finn, lamarca, and Frank Phillips in thread 1392 on "California Dreamin'"

Some of you knew, as I did, both Barry Finn and Mary LaMarca as very knowledgeable and eclectic singers and researchers. They seem to have made 'ol Elsie's point better than she did - and then Frank Phillips (who I never met) adds even more!

Max has finally given up on any attempt to limit the discussion to "Folk & Blues" as the original banner read, and the forum reflects that. We will survive.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 30 Mar 13 - 10:51 PM

Joe-

Thanks for providing some statistics for this discussion. I don't post here much anymore on anything but music topics. That's not because anyone has abused me or attacked me.

My other interests are discussed on Facebook and some of my music interests as well. Facebook does provide me an easy way to post graphics and I am now an active member and administrator of several nautically related forums. But I do value what I have learned from Mudcat; much of the musical discussion, and even some of the digressions were great.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 31 Mar 13 - 02:45 AM

As a newbie, only 4 years, I should like to check back on some of Elsie's policing posts, but not sure how to set about accessing them.

How?

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 31 Mar 13 - 03:47 AM

Hi Michael -
I gave a link (click) in the post where I first mentioned Elsie.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 31 Mar 13 - 04:24 AM

Joe: Many thanks. Sorry I missed that, but have now followed some up.

I like her: she reminds me of me! up to a point, Lord Copper.

Must find time some time to read some more.

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 31 Mar 13 - 05:12 AM

Outside the tent pissin' in, is much more fun.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Mar 13 - 12:09 PM

The Original Thread - which this thread is about....and from where *my* words come from.

I started that thread, to which I've linked above, PURELY to pass on a new video (to me) of John Elder Robison, talking about the HUGE benefits he's gained from TMS Research, which he has very willingly taking part in.

John has Aspergers, and is also the author of 'Look Me In The Eye'- his autobiograhy, which is a brilliant and informative book..

I put it in here PURELY because I know there are many people in Mudcat who either know children/people who have Autism, or who have chidren/relatives themselves on the Circle..

Yes,I know others call it The Spectrum, but I call it the Circle...

INSTANTLY dave came on with a link to a thread which he KNOWS caused a great deal of consternation in here, whilst he chose to make NO comment on the videos I'd posted whatsoever.

What dave does NOT know is that in the thread he linked to, where I fought off a great deal of downright unpleasantness, I also wrote a message about how it feels, for some, to have Aspergers/Autism..and that one person, whom I will not name, contacted me about a member of their family who had seen that post and had been able to see themselves in that message, which they felt was of great help to them.

That ONE message to me enabled me to throw away all the SHITTY comments in that thread, because if I was able to help just ONE person, that was enough for me.

dave, if you do not believe me, then you can check with Bruce, because he knows. I trust Bruce more than anyone else in here, and I know that he would never reveal any more details, but he will be able to verify what I say.

In a recent thread about the odious Jimmy Saville dave did EXACTLY the same thing when I left a comment saying how this man had always made my skin crawl, even as a very young person...and how revolting he was etc...He then chose to call me out as being someone who had said that women themselves caused rapes to happen..and that it was all their fault, again, giving a link to a thread from AGES back, just as he did in the link above...and taking what words I DID actually say, TOTALLY out of context, to portray me in the WORST possible way he could.

Of course, he also stated in that thread, which was about Saville dying, and NOT started at the time the TRUTH about him was coming out, how much he liked and admired Jimmy Saville...

No comment...

Also, he loves to continually call me 'Liz'...a name I have REPEATEDLY asked both he and Greg (also in the thread I link to) to NOT call me, as it is a name that has very personal connotations for me and has only ever been used by those for whom I have a deep love, like my Darlin' Dad, or by those for whom I have the utmost respect, such as Bruce...Yet over and over and OVER he has gone out of his way to refer me to thus, stating it's his 'schoolboy humour'...

No. It is the humour of Bullies, actually...

I am now SO sick of him, of Greg and of Spaw too, who has at times, been outrageously rude to me, but because he's considered the Mudcat Darling has NOT been called out by others....

I don't care if others 'go off me' for if something is wrong, then I'll darn well say so...

This place has come to stink, I'm afraid...

The Bastards drove me out of the Music Section, but even that is NOT enough, for they simply want me gone from everywhere...

Well, they've got their wish on Mudcat...for I now find this place SO unpleasant...and part of that is also because one mod in particular who lets these bastards CONTINUALLY get away with things, whilst calling ME a troll (Jeri, are you listening?!) gives out the VERY WRONG MESSAGE over and again and that is that it's OK for those SHE likes to pour shite over those she DOESN'T like....

I kept quiet about her for a very VERY long time, because she is the friend of someone else, but I no longer choose to do so anymore, because she ENCOURAGES these fuckers to do this in her 'put downs' of me all the time. Others see her opinions as correct PURELY because they know she's a mod...

Well, fuck that...

John protected me, as did Joe...
Joe has my full permission at all and any time to look through any PMs sent to me, or that I have sent out...and that also protects me..

But now, I've had it....

It's REALLY sad, because backalong I LOVED coming to Mudcat, talking about the music that I loved, but they even took that away from me, targetting any musicians whose music I loved with ridicule, making THEM feel bad and hoping I'd stop talking about them...

They'd drag up post after post, thread after thread, because these guys have it all stored and saved on their computers, probably all cross referenced too, because THAT is how sick some of them are, how deeply they hate me, how deep their desire to get others to see me through their bitter and resentful eyes..

I find 'dave' to make my skin crawl in the way Savile did, but for different reasons, for, to me, he has a VERY UNHEALTHY obssession with me, as did some of his former buddies, one of whom was bordering on the insane in my view, SO obssessive did he become about me...

I'm done here....
So are many others...

It is the fault of those who run Mudcat for ALLOWING these bastards on here in the first place, for choosing VERY BIASED mods as well...

But it's there site..nowt to do with me...

However, it IS sad to see it go the way of the BBC board, year by year, because so few people, especially NEW people post here now....

I'm off

Have a good life....

And with thanks to John for being a decent mod...and to Joe Offer too, for they may have issues with me at one time, but once they came to understand me, to see with their own eyes what was going on, they became very decent towards me..and I'll never forget that...

And with thanks to Bruce too, who worked so hard to try to get others to see me with different eyes..I always appreciated that Bruce and loved you for it too..You're one lovely fella, as well as a bloody brilliant singer, songwriter and musician... xx


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish
Date: 31 Mar 13 - 12:10 PM

Fook, forgot to fill in the 'Guest' part.... That post above is from me...


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 31 Mar 13 - 01:15 PM

Apparently, wearing your heart on your sleeve, is a crime in some quarters


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: akenaton
Date: 31 Mar 13 - 01:15 PM

Well I dont know about all your problems Lizzie, but you're spot on about Brucie, one of the kindest and most trustworthy guys I've ever come across.

Its been worth all the aggro just to have come to know Bruce,George, Jim McLean, Keith and that rehabilitated Sassenach Readwulf.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: Janie
Date: 31 Mar 13 - 03:18 PM

As best I can tell, this thread is about "Are Fewer People Posting?" Hope it gets back on track and continues to be about that topic.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 Mar 13 - 03:55 PM

I think Lizzie was bullied, and I posted my opinion to a moderator.
I think that posts like the one i made today about partial capos, should be what this forum is about., sadly no one has appeared to notice it.
I have suffered abuse from a number of people, Ralph Jordan was one who tried to tell me I would never be booked to play in the south east of England again, RALPH you were wrong I have since played at the following folk clubs,Faversham,Deal, Waltham Abbey, St Neots,Romford,Lewes,Swindon,uxbridge, maidenhead,tenterden folk festival, stanford, croydon.
and this from another mudcat member
Subject:Subject: RE: Excellent Mudcat parody
From: Doug Chadwick - PM
Date: 27 Mar 09 - 03:04 AM

From Captain Birdsey:
like Diane,I thought these cartoons were funny 30 years ago.
…………………………………………………………………
now I find them predictable ……………………………………..

and from Diane Easby:
……….I got bored with Borfolk 30 years ago,………..

So, where did either of you see the Mudcat parody 30 years ago? Even if the message is the same, the approach is fresh and amusing.



From another thread:

For more than 30 years Mudcat's Dick Miles has been play and writing traditional music………………….

Captain, perhaps it's a good job people don't apply your sense of humour to their musical tastes, otherwise you could find your upcoming tour playing to pretty small audiences.


DC
    the above was allowed by the moderators, doug chadwick takes an extract from my website, accuses me of not having a sense of humour, and suggesting that because I have a different sense of humour, i would be playing to small audiences
That was a personal attack, AND NOTHING WAS DONE TO REMOVE THE POST.ARE YOU SURPRISED PEOPLE LEAVE THIS FORUM, I AM NOT.
   Because I said that I did not find it funny,I am subjected to personal attacks.
ON ANOTHER OCCASION I was also accused of taking hallucinatory drugs by IAN ANDERSON, because I criticised a review which appeared to be in Folk roots, but was actually a review by a James O Donnell, which was cleverly giving the impression it was A Folk Roots REVIEW., but in fact was not.
   Ian Anderson has since banned me from his forum.
TALK ABOUT MUSICAL FASCISM, performers are not allowed to criticise hatchet job reviews.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Mar 13 - 04:05 PM

Well, the less said about the above the better but it made a very good case for what I said about a small handful creating havoc! Just to pick one point, Liz says, about me

how much he liked and admired Jimmy Saville...

What I actually said in the referenced thread was

"Listening to Tony Blackbutrn on Pick of the Pops earlier today and realising what a huge difference DJs made to my generation. JS was one of the best and most influential."

Nothing whatsoever about how I either liked or admired him! Adolph Hitler was also one of the best and influential to a lot of people but I did not admire him either! Just shows what damage insidious lies and rumours can do if not called out. Anyway. They toys have gone out of the pram again. I have no doubt whatsoever that she will be back. Maybe some of the people who have left will return now that she has gone and those 'protecting' her no longer do so, but I suspect the damage has already been done.

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Mar 13 - 04:10 PM

BTW - I am REALLY Dave - not 'dave' in inverted commas.

Dunno how that came about. Don't really care but find it interesting all the same :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 Mar 13 - 05:30 PM

this personal message reminded me of fahrenheit 451, where the fireman burn the books rather than put fires out.
My Dear Mr. Miles,

I would like to inform you that in my opinion, you perfectly fit the definition of a Certified Asshole.

Congratulations!

-Joe Offer-
however despite this unpleasant post from joe offer, I think overall he did a good job as moderator


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 31 Mar 13 - 07:21 PM

……………………………………….

and this from another mudcat member
Subject:Subject: RE: Excellent Mudcat parody
From: Doug Chadwick - PM.
Date: 27 Mar 09 - 03:04 AM
…………………………………………………………………
…………………………………………………………………
…………………………………………………………………

That was a personal attack, AND NOTHING WAS DONE TO REMOVE THE POST.ARE YOU SURPRISED PEOPLE LEAVE THIS FORUM, I AM NOT..

……………………………………….




Oooh 'eck! I've never seen myself as being a trouble maker, causing others to leave.

I thought that you had just ignored my comments back then, Dick, but all this time you have been bottling it up.

DC


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: Ed T
Date: 31 Mar 13 - 08:07 PM

"To be angry about trifles is mean and childish; to rage and be furious is brutish; and to maintain perpetual wrath is akin to the practice and temper of devils; but to prevent and suppress rising resentment is wise and glorious, is manly and divine."
Alan Watts quote


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp
Date: 01 Apr 13 - 01:51 AM

More importantly, are fewer Chimps posting? I think so! And it's because blatant specism is tolerated here, even encouraged! It's a disgrace.

- Chongo


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 01 Apr 13 - 02:01 AM

Errrrm....confused....Why the tirade? Haven't posted here in months!


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 01 Apr 13 - 02:06 AM

We know what the chimps are doing. You tailless pygmy marmoset!

Animal Barter.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 01 Apr 13 - 04:02 AM

Hey, Ralphie, good to see you!

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 01 Apr 13 - 05:39 AM

I was amused fairly recently by an accusation of being a Troll and lurking under a false disguise. (by Richard Bridge) I'm not totally sure what an Internet Troll is. I assume it's a rather nasty person who sabotages threads and aggravates everyone with insults and vituperative comments. I'm not by any means Saint Eliza, but at my age to be deemed a Troll and to have cooked up a false persona into the bargain is rather funny! I suppose some people suffer from indifferent digestion, constipation or a bad night's sleep and it makes them crotchety and savage. They should have a nice cup of cocoa and a laxative tablet. I'm sure they'd feel better the next day and post politely.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Apr 13 - 05:41 AM

And it's because blatant specism is tolerated here

Agreed, Chongo. Maybe us shorter folk should form an alliance!

:D


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Apr 13 - 06:07 AM

The fact that a poster has not posted in months does not excuse the original unpleasantness.
The facts are Lizzie Cornish was bullied, and I received an unpleasant message from a moderator, I also received abuse from Ralph and Doug Chadwick.
Internet abuse is not excused by length of time any more than sexual abuse or physical abuse.
The Moderators on this forum are all volunteeers and in my opinion 95 percent of the time do a very good job.
Abusers like Jordan and Chadwick need to think and control themselves before they post, internet ABUSERS like Jordan [who also made an irrelevant derogatory remark about a CD I made, ..."THE LESS SAID ABOUT YOUR RECORDING THE BETTER" should be ashamed of themselves.
I dare Chadwick AND Jordan to say that stuff to my face.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Apr 13 - 06:51 AM

Are you saying that bullying and unpleasantness in general cause fewer posts, Dick? If so, and both you and Lizzie are bring bullied, how come it hasn't stopped you posting?

There is a HUGE difference between Bullying, disagreement and criticism which a lot of people do not seem to be aware of. Because someone disagrees with your views or criticises something you have said or done is not tantamount to bullying. It is far easier to hide behind the guise of being a victim than to come back with a sensible argument or a good response to criticism.

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 01 Apr 13 - 07:12 AM

I dare Chadwick AND Jordan to say that stuff to my face.

I try not to post anything that I would not say to someone's face and, quite frankly, even after re-reading it, I'm surprised that you took it as a personal attack sufficient to drive people away. Perhaps it just reflects the unsubtle nature of the written word. Trying to explain my original comments on an open forum could easily lead to the public fighting that we are trying to avoid. If ever our paths cross, GSS, I would be more than happy to discuss it further, face to face.

More importantly, if you want to use the name Chadwick to address me, it comes attached either to Doug or Mr.

DC


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Apr 13 - 07:44 AM

Dave, the comments d chadwick and ralph jordan mde were abusive comments, abusive comments are bullying.
I continue to post here, because the majority are decent people on this forum, who post interesting posts about music, my post about partial capos in my opinion is what this forum should be about, here was another post i found useful, this is what this forum should be about discussing music not dissing other people humour etc.
i found this clip through this forum http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4DWcpYOQM0


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 01 Apr 13 - 08:53 AM

Well this thread is getting really interesting now. A goodly mixture of paranoia and narcisssism, is always a good fuel for conflict.
Keep it up folks. my boring Easter weekend, is getting considerably brighter, by the hour :)


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: number 6
Date: 01 Apr 13 - 09:59 AM

Now that my day job is being a full time house husband I find I just don't have the time to hang out here at the Madcat.

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: Bill D
Date: 01 Apr 13 - 10:37 AM

"Because someone disagrees with your views or criticises something you have said or done is not tantamount to bullying."

Ummm... amen. But GSS will no doubt have his own opinion on that. ;>)


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: theleveller
Date: 01 Apr 13 - 10:52 AM

Awwww! I read that as 'Are fewer people posing', which sounded like a really interesting thread. I'm disappointed to just find the same old boring grumpy stuff that's the reason I don't come here much any more.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Apr 13 - 11:35 AM

As I understand it the purpose of this forum is to discuss music, is posters stuck to that this forum would in my opinion be better, for that reason I have nothing more to say on this thread,good bye.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 01 Apr 13 - 12:24 PM

Oooh! Who's a precious boy then?


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp
Date: 01 Apr 13 - 12:55 PM

You takin' us internet arguers lightly, John McKenzie? You think we are just here for yer idle amusement so's you can snicker down yer sleeve at us while nursin' yer warm beer and scratchin' under yer hairy human armpits??? Hmmm? You better watch it, John, cos us Chimps don't put up with that sorta disrespectful attitude, no sir! We are gonna be taken SERiously when we bitch and carry on about stuff, and if somebody is dumb enough NOT to take us seriously, then we're gonna pound his head against a tree trunk a few times and maybe rip his arms off, see?

- Chongo


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Apr 13 - 12:57 PM

As I understand it the purpose of this forum is to discuss music, is posters stuck to that this forum would in my opinion be better

I agree, Dick, it would be better. But, in my opinion, the purpose of the BS section, is to discuss things OTHER than music. So, if you just want to discuss music, stay above the line. If you want to get involved in the free for all that is BS then feel free. But don't join in the mixed martial arts championships and then complain that someone has punched you in the nose!

I did not see the comments made by Doug and Ralph in context. I dunno if they were above or below the line and, if above, I don't know if they were a critics opinion of your act and music or just abuse. Again, only in my opinion, a lot of people are quite happy to make conversational posts but, when someone disagrees, they scream that they are being abused or bullied.

I could just shake my head in disbelief, and often do, but when that post is blatantly abusive, mis-informed or just plain wrong I cannot help but comment. That is me. It is what I do. It is not bullying or stalking or even abuse. It is usually a reaction to a ludicrous comment. If that is wrong then stick a label on my head, call me Flashman and send me back to Tom Browns schooldays!

But, provided that you keep your promise that you are out of here, then I guess I AM one of the reasons people post less. If the powers that be are happy with that, then so be it!

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Apr 13 - 12:58 PM

I have seen examples of people intimidated from contributing by aggressive, bullying posts.
GSS and Lizzie are tough old birds, but many are not.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Apr 13 - 01:11 PM

I dare say you have, Keith. I cannot say I have but, as always, I am willing to learn

Could someone also please define for me just what is a bullying or abusive post as opposed to a strong disagreement, a criticism of a persons work or ideas or simply an argument? Preferably with examples of it happening here?

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 01 Apr 13 - 01:11 PM

What do you mean birds??






:)


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: Megan L
Date: 01 Apr 13 - 01:12 PM

From what I see in here some pots that took delight in miscryin the kettle are doing a fair bit o greetin when the kettle returns the favour


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 01 Apr 13 - 01:20 PM

99 Change threads Is this the right room for an argument?


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp
Date: 01 Apr 13 - 01:54 PM

Yer not makin' any sense, John. I think you need to cut down on the ale, get more exercise, maybe go for a brisk walk at dawn each day, get some oxygen in yer blood, fer Chrissake!

- Chongo


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: Megan L
Date: 01 Apr 13 - 02:01 PM

that from an overgrown baboon with delusions of granduer


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp
Date: 01 Apr 13 - 02:02 PM

My delusions are a lot more stimulatin' than yers, Megan!

- Chongo


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Apr 13 - 02:16 PM

I think most members here have lost touch with reality, this is a playground for aging hippies, and new age "liberals".

No one is allowed to rock the boat which floats on the flat calm Mudcat sea.
When the seas get choppy and the real world starts to intrude, members run for cover. That seems to be what is happening here.

The illusion must never be betrayed, seeds of doubt must never be planted.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: Ed T
Date: 01 Apr 13 - 02:30 PM

Could it be more accurate that there are fewer people posting interesting stuff? Have Mudcat members blown their wad (the well is near dry), with fewer ideas emerging for new and interesting threads to stimulate interest in posting? There may really be an end to everything?


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 01 Apr 13 - 03:01 PM

ACCURATE ????? Ed FFS, don't use words that people don't understand!


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: Ed T
Date: 01 Apr 13 - 03:08 PM

John MacKenzie -A good one, lol:)


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 01 Apr 13 - 03:10 PM

Even my PM's are getting funnier.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Apr 13 - 03:14 PM

100.Be aware that our forum is Free.

Anonymity and Guest Posting are permitted.

You are free to be anything you want EXCEPT unkind, impolite, argumentative, snooty, or either FOR or AGAINST that of-what-we-do-not-speak.

Be aware of what personal information you decide to share within the forum. It is public. Unlike Facebook, there is NO PRIVACY at all.

We care about your safety but we are not in the business of protecting you. Your kind and civil behavior is your best protection.

Membership, however, is currently being purified.

One of the great things about mudcat over the years has been our ability to meet other mudcatters around the world in person and visit their homes and such. For this to be safe for everyone, we gotta kinda put you through the ringer a bit. So..


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 01 Apr 13 - 03:19 PM

Oh dear, I thought he'd gone


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: Ed T
Date: 01 Apr 13 - 03:31 PM

"Even my PM's are getting funnier."

Some people are just naturally funny.
If you are one of those fortunate folks,
ever considered a stand up comedy career?

:)


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: Megan L
Date: 01 Apr 13 - 04:04 PM

If people are posting a quote I do wish they would say where from so that the veracity of the words posted can be checked.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Apr 13 - 04:09 PM

the quote is from the mudcat membership site, flaming[ oo you are a[precious boy] is impolite, likely to cause an argument[ argumentative]. john mackenzie please take note you are breaking the mudcat rules.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: Megan L
Date: 01 Apr 13 - 04:11 PM

And you never have?

Be careful how you answer that


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 01 Apr 13 - 04:14 PM

Yes Dick, so your bitchy PM's tell me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 01 Apr 13 - 04:18 PM

"Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: Good Soldier Schweik - PM
Date: 01 Apr 13 - 11:35 AM

As I understand it the purpose of this forum is to discuss music, is posters stuck to that this forum would in my opinion be better, for that reason I have nothing more to say on this thread,good bye.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: Jeri
Date: 01 Apr 13 - 04:21 PM

If it makes life easier, consider this the April Fools' thread.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 01 Apr 13 - 04:23 PM

If there are fewer people posting does that mean that the search facility or the power of google etc has improved and people are getting the info that they want and going on their merry way.
I would reckon the value of the site is its library resource.
The search is good and i reckon that someone wanting wants background or words of songs on songs Mudcat along with wikipedia provide great inf sources. If i post or am looking for song words and i get corrections i am quite happy that folks in general try to give informed comment.
Older age group folk music is on the decline due to something called "age"
As for the BS section many of the comments and opinions show the character of the posters and many of the comments i find in most cases are justified.
Having worked in front line mental health for a number of years I was used to being abused and threatened with extreme violence by opiniated people. For that reason I find that the BS section although sometimes tedious is in general informative and entertaining.
I dont think that in all the years (possibly around 15 years) that I have been looking in on Mudcat that the discussion is in any way contributing to a lower number of posts as the quality of the discussions is roughly the same as i was all those years ago reflecting all the colors of the rainbow.
"Just a thought" - - Bluebottle of the Goons (if its not someone will correct me ... hee hee)


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 01 Apr 13 - 04:26 PM

Jeri, They all are ;-)

How else do you find 20 posts about soccer on a define "Heaven and Hell" thread?

Maybe there should be a help page called "Starting your own g-danged thread!" or a button next to "Submit Message" saying "Make this post a thread."


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Apr 13 - 05:23 PM

You are free to be anything you want EXCEPT unkind, impolite, argumentative, snooty, or either FOR or AGAINST that of-what*-we-do-not-speak.
.,,.
I hate to appear either naive or ignorant ~~ but what is that, please?

~M~

*...and, in conformity with my status as Official Legendary Pedant, that 'what' would be more seemly rendered as 'which'.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Apr 13 - 05:27 PM

John MacKenzie         whos a precious boy         1 Apr 2013 02:31 PM         
                        
Message:
an absolutely puerile comment,and an example of flaming. John MacKenzie         Re: Re: whos a precious boy         1 Apr 2013 03:12 PM         
                        
Message:
another puerile and ignorant remark , i have a sense of humour , it Happens to be different from yours.
john mackenzie these are the personal messages, perfectly accurate you were and still are flaming/trolling.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: Megan L
Date: 02 Apr 13 - 03:38 AM

GSS do not ever PM me again if you cannot say something to me in a thread then do not bother saying it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Apr 13 - 04:41 AM

I am a bit concerned over this publication of PMs as well. Surely the idea is that they are PERSONAL messages? I have always believed that personal messages should remain so. I will certainly never PM people who then go on to publish the messages!

Maybe another reason that people are posting less? Lack of trust in their fellow posters?

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 02 Apr 13 - 05:08 AM

Just Dick living up to his name.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Apr 13 - 05:12 AM

Megan you are flaming /trolling,SO HERE IS THE POST THAT YOU ARE TRYING TO INSINUATE HAS SOMETHING FRIGHTENING IN IT. HERE IS THE MESsAGE FOR ALL TO SEE. Megan L         abuse         1 Apr 2013 05:15 PM         
                        
Message:
I do not recall abusing or bullying anybody, in fact i make point of not doing so as a general rule, despite severe provocation. please do not tell me how to answer things as that in itself is attempting to browbeat me."
    if megan and john mackenzie cannot see the provocation /flaming elements in their posts and cannot see why people leave mudcat, goid help us.
this is supposed to be a music discussion site, there are certain mudcat rules, which i displayed, Megan could not even recognise where they were from.
Megan and John should make themselves aware of those rules and always bear them in mind when posting


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: Megan L
Date: 02 Apr 13 - 05:17 AM

Nothing I posted insinuated anything I merely stated that I did not wish to EVER receive a PM from you.

As to your tirade and selective memory While my husband was critically ill in a hospital several hundred miles from our home you took exception to something I said and made a point of following me from thread to thread haranguing me. It took three other members telling you in no uncertain terms to back of before you left me alone.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 02 Apr 13 - 05:21 AM

Dick's post history is there for everybody to check. On several forums.

Enough said.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Apr 13 - 06:18 AM

Isn't publishing personal messages a form of bullying?

Maybe bullying is in the eye of the beholder!

Anyway - I suspect we will get no further sensible discussion here. Thanks are mainly due to Joe for providing the stats. They are far from conclusive as, as was pointed out, the number of spam messages has declined dramatically. Maybe that accounts for a 20% reduction? I don't know. What I do know is that, in the main, Mudcat is good resource and platform for exchanging ideas. It's a pity when people abuse it, and abuse it they do. Maybe I am just as guilty by pointing out what I feel is crass stupidity but, as I said, that is the way I am. I accept that some people feel the same about my postings and perhaps when I see something that makes my blood boil I should just keep quiet. I probably won't. But neither will I stop contributing and reading valuable posts, throw my toys out of the pram or resort to childish games.

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Apr 13 - 06:21 AM

It could be the effect of global warming......

The polar ice caps melt. The Polar Bears heads south. Swimmers off Coney island and Torquay report attacks by polar bears. their food source is being threatened.

In blind panic, people stop posting on Mudcat. The attack of the Polar bears is imminent, and everyone huddles together for safety - or in some cases, because they like huddling together.

I blame the tories.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 02 Apr 13 - 06:27 AM

Another insightful, and prescient post from Big Al there.
Thanks Al, I love that post. :)


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 02 Apr 13 - 07:51 AM

You don't need to blame the Tories or find any other scapegoat.
GSS has already identified the source of the problem:

It's all my fault!

Dick says so and that's good enough for me.

DC


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Apr 13 - 08:22 AM

Megan is speechless!

:D


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 02 Apr 13 - 09:53 AM

Well Mudcat's been up & down with highs of superb music & other types discussions + lows of bitching squabbling since I joined up circa 2002.

I guess its a sort of sine curve but all in all still the best place for info, mostly intelligent discourse & social networking


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Apr 13 - 10:09 AM

Doug, again you have it wrong, I pinpointed three people ian anderson, who accused me of being on hallucinatory drugs, ralph jordan who made personal remarks about my music career, and yourself who suggested I would be playing to smaller audiences because i did not think borfolk was funny.
as for megan, firstly i disagreed with three things she said that is not abuse or bullying, lastly her family background is not something i could possibly have been aware of, and if I had known, I probably would have understood, why she hadpreviously ben unpleasant to me.
peter laban, this discussion is about this forum, this is just another example of you throwing in their tuppence worth, to flame a discussion.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 02 Apr 13 - 10:11 AM

Well Dick, your posting history on this forum is also available for everybody to see. Nothing to do with flaming. Fact.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Apr 13 - 10:23 AM

peter, you are a flamer of the first order, you are still doing it now. my posting history is here the same as yours, you have been stalking me for years, you flamed on concertina net, as member of that forum dirge pointed out , you seem to have taken exception to something i said about kitty hayes concertina playing and you have borne a grudge ever since.
my posting history here, as you say and i take great care not to give personal abuse to anyone.I try to observe the rules of this forum


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 02 Apr 13 - 10:54 AM

So far for discussing this forum only.

Let's put the record straight. I started posting here on a obit thread when a friend died.

I stayed on and anybody checking the posting record can see for themselves I had no interactions with you until you unleashed a bullying campaign. I am sorry to say I have at times responded in kind but really, it's energy wasted.

The reason you were ejected and declared unwelcome at concertina.net was in your own posting and some PM you sent me.

You were ejected again when I recognised your posting style in the posts of someone posting as Martin Gibson. Paul Schwartz, the owner of concertina.net, confirmed it was you and banned that username.

That's all there is to it. Anybody can check what's there.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 02 Apr 13 - 11:10 AM

GSS,
I missed something of my last post. Let me repost the last line with the bit I left off:-

…………………………………
…………………………………
Dick says so and that's good enough for me.   ;-)


DC


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Apr 13 - 11:14 AM

a bullying campaign? complete rubbish.
    i am aware of your derogatory comments on various you tube videos of mine, and your provocations on session org and also your flaming and trolling on concertina net, which all seemed to start after i made some comment about kitty hayes playing, get over it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 02 Apr 13 - 11:17 AM

Believe what you will dick. I am sticking with my version and anybody who feels so inclined can check the facts on the forum (and the other forums you now insist on bringing into it).


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 02 Apr 13 - 11:44 AM

Well now that it's down to bile, inability to discern the diference between criticism, and bullying, total sense of humour failure. hyper thin skin, and sense of humour failure. Methinks it'd time this thread was put out of it's misery.
Interesting the someone would choose the nom-de-guerre of Martin Gibson though. Makes one wonder if it was a steal, or a continuation?


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 02 Apr 13 - 12:14 PM

I'm one of the fedwer people, almost to the point of noit posting at all. I dodn't state that as a point of dissrespect or criticism. Communities change. I know change is a four letter word to folkies, but change happensI check mudcat occasionally. , but usually don't see any threads I feel have anuthing to contribute to. The good news about mudcat is that it is tightly focused. The bad news about mudcat is, it's tightly focused. How much an person gets out of mudcat depends on their range of inerests.

For me Facebook is a much better fit. And nop,m people don't just post abour what they ate this morning. I can be me on Facfebook, which was far more difficult to do on mudcat. The nice thing about facebook is that if people are anti-religion, or hate anything electric, they don't have to read my posts. Friendship is optional. I'm also not much into to political wrangling (which is a major part of mudcat,) so I can just unfriend people who are diatribe-prone in a quiet, respectful way.

These days, I spend my time o9n www.talk music.It just fits me better. They are threads on every kind of music, including folk, and minds are pretty open. Ifr you're not interested in a particular type of music, you don't have to open the threads. That's true here on mudcat, too, but there are enough attack dogs on here thatopen aa thread just to be combative. That never happens on talk/music. Religionor the antagonism toward religion never surfaces on talk/music, while it's always been a raging part of mudcat. I don't preach what I believe, but I don't need to avoid posting any reference to my faith out of concern that I will be attacked by all the people who say there should be no preaching on this site, yet preach the superiority of atheism until the cows come home, are mild and asafely installed in their stalls for the night.

I still think mudcat is a good site, and deoes wqhat it set out to do very well. I havce many mudcat friends who are also facebook friends, so I don't feel completely disconnect. I still value the friendships I made here, and will pop in from time to time.

If you aren't anti-facbeook, "friend" me, so we can keep in touch, or drop by talk-music sometime, if you have a broader insterest in music.

All the best

http://talk-music.proboards.com/


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 02 Apr 13 - 12:29 PM

Dick Miles wrote:-
"I pinpointed three people ian anderson, who accused me of being on hallucinatory drugs,"


Dear me. Are we back to that one again after all these years? Without wishing to get into an unwelcome disagreement, could I point out that some time after the remark, when you raised it on this forum, I was able prove to you that it was largely your problems with spelling and punctuation (at that time) that caused Ian to make the comment which I seem to remember was something like "What are you on?, At the time this was a common if scathing and very unkind remark; I remember thinking at the time did not put Ian in a very good light.
I also seem to remember that you ended up apologising to Ian on this forum.
Was this not the case?


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 02 Apr 13 - 01:29 PM

Jerry, Mudcat's problem is the determined warts and all approach, at any cost. Other sites probably delete many of the combative posts before many folks see them. If that happened in a controlled manner on here, there would be less nasty posts for people to react to.
I too like the 'Chose your friends' approach on FB. I might add that several of my FB friends, are also Mudcatters ;)


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Apr 13 - 01:42 PM

I apologised to Ian, because I had been mistaken in thinking it was a folk roots review,the review was written by one jams o donnell who gave the impression it was a review in folk roots.
I certainly did not apologise for IAN ANDERSON suggesting I was on hallucinatory drugs, in fact I reckon he owes me an apology. that particular problem was caused by a reviewer pretending it was a folk roots review.
   peter laban, you have continued to stir the pot? flame/ troll,you have made at least one derogatory remark on a you tube video of minein that you were not alone, along with another member of www.session .org, a certain Zina lee,
you by your own ad mission went sneaking off to paul schwarz on concertina net, this might suggest someone with a grudge, does it not? you by your own admission have been wasting energy on hounding me on the internet,please desist.
john mackenzie, again is stirring the pot,flaming trolling, I have no connection with MARTIN GIBSON, who was on this site before my time.
   the fact of the matter is this, many internet forums are run like private fiefdoms, I will give you an example, I have had many musical disagreements with Michael Gill, on www.session .org, but i do not bear him any malice, I wonder why he has been suspended for 11 months, when he has done nothing[ on the last occasion, apart from apparantly say sheesh] to warrant it.
concertina net is another private fiefdom pretending to be democratic, your sneaking off to paul schwarz,   only shows that you bore me malice and had an agenda against me, and bears out that it is you that has a grudge against me, you should be ashamed of yourself, you have the mentality of a police informer.
you come here with the particular purpose of libelling me, please give proof of this personal message, I am very careful what i say in personal messages, and have never sent you a bullying or abusive message, unless you can prove otherwise you should go away with this malicious gossip


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Apr 13 - 01:45 PM

Anyone ever wish they had not asked a question..?

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 02 Apr 13 - 02:02 PM

Dick you're losing it.

I left you any comments on youtube. If you think otherwise, prove it and post a link.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe
Date: 02 Apr 13 - 02:09 PM

I just wasted 15 minutes of my life reading this thread. It served to remind me why I spend so little of my time on Mudcat these days. Shame, really.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: MartinRyan
Date: 02 Apr 13 - 02:16 PM

I continue to meet people at festivals and other musical occasions who comment: "Mudcat? No, don't go there much now - too unpleasant.". Interestingly, I've met several Americans who blame it on "those bloody Brits" and several Brits who blame it all on "those bloody Americans"!

Regards


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Apr 13 - 02:40 PM

I will find it in due course,mean while you produce this so called bullying personal message, and explain why you maliciously went to paul schwarz as an informer, why else other than you had and have had a personal grudge for along time., and then your continuing attempts to insinuate that I was Martin Gibson who used to post here, it says one thing you have a malicious hidden agenda against me, which is your only point in posting on this thread.
internet forums run by power freaks such as www.session .org and concertina net, and who rely upon sneaky informers to continue a pretence of democracy are in my opinion worth avoiding , i find i visit both the sites less and less, there is much misinformmed claptrap[ about concertinas] and only the occasional useful information


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 02 Apr 13 - 02:52 PM

Anyone who wishes can check the fact Dick. Let's leave it at that. Contact Paul Schwartz and ask him who was hiding behind the Martin Gibson identity and why it was deleted from concertina.net.

I have no wish to have any interaction with you whatsoever but your constant twisting of things is not something that is to be left unchallenged.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 02 Apr 13 - 02:57 PM

Too much wilful ignorance (or pretend illiteracy) and racism (not just against the English) and irrationality and defence of the foregoing (which I suppose is as good an explanation of conservatives or republicans as any).   And the ubiquity of the pink and fluffy brigade, and idiots who want to be John Wayne. But there again if you go onto any of the wide-open sections of facebook look at the shit that crawls out from under stones there.

The inability to discuss certain areas of "political thought" is also a handicap. MtheGM, you DO indeed know what that is as I have messaged you about some of it and teh misuse of your name or image on other sites, so your pretence that you do not know is another aspect of trolling.

Also the serious scholars of folk music seem to have died or gone so as a folk music resource the value of this place reduces.

But it is still a good place to exchange information about folk (and not-quite-folk) events.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 02 Apr 13 - 03:03 PM

I think this thread is the best evidence anyone could present on why people don't come here as much any more. Yuck! I haven't seen this kind of beavior since I left my playground days behind. I'll check in again in aother six months... God bless!


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 02 Apr 13 - 04:11 PM

Athough a few of you would like to think that the decline in Mudcat posting has to do with your determined and unrelenting petulance, the change is more likely connected to the fact is that there is a lot out there that didn't used to be, and not as much here as there used to be.

One can, for instance, now go to YouTube and hear and see nearly all of the artists that one can only discuss here. And there are discussion threads attached. Even better is Spotify--I spent most of last evening listening to the Almanac Singers, and last week, spent nearly 6 continuous hours listening to Dave Swarbrick.

One cannot come to Mudcat and listen to artists, and if one wants to hear what a tune sounds like, it is catch-as-catch-can--abc files, though useful, are far from the state of the art, and Mudcat Midis were never comparable to those at The Contemplator. If one wants to hear a folk tune, there are collections sound files and midis of the different genres all over the internet.

People used to come to Mudcat to request chords for tunes, but there was never any effort to standardize the way that they were posted, let alone collate them or make them easier to use, and, as a consequence, chords are much better elsewhere--

If you want to complain about Dick Miles, Guest from Sanity, Spleen Cringe, this is the place, but if you want to hear them, or any of the dozens to hundreds of Mudcatters who are also performers, good luck, because there are none of the clickable sidebars that have gotten to be the norm on other sites.

And even the ads, which support the site, are mostly inappropriate-where are the Martin Guitar ads, the ads for capos and strings, the ads for portable sound systems, the ads for folk and traditional recordings?

And finally, where is an online platform for folk/traditional and ethnic music? Instead of supporting the creation of one, the good folks at Mudcat(you know who you are) decried MP3 files, P-to-P, Napster, Limewire, and such things as "stealing", and browbeat anyone who mentioned them. Now take a look around...

I am not criticizing Max, Joe, or any of the others for any of this. They have had a lot on their plates over the years, and have handled it very well. New ventures require new people, new money, and new commitments, and the "Mudcat community", hasn't stepped up to the plate. Yeah, you throw a few bucks in when somebody begs for it, but just a few...and you fight change tooth and nail...and so it goes...


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 02 Apr 13 - 04:15 PM

Pretty accurate summary there.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Apr 13 - 04:57 PM

Very good points indeed, Stim. Strange thing is though that if the other sites are taking 'custom' away from here it is quite a slow migration. 20% fewer postings than last year and a lot of that could be down to better spam filters. I would expect the lure of YouTube et al to have created a larger loss of posts. Maybe there is a big loss here but a some gains from another source? I suppose we can only guess. But at least that is better than all the other stuff going on in this thread!

Will you lot stop it please. You know who you are!


Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Apr 13 - 05:12 PM

I have no wish to have interaction with a sneaky malicious troll who clearly has an axe to grind, who comes on to this thread with the sole intention of discrediting me.
I came on to this thread to give my opinion that i thought lizzie cornish had been bullied,
the people that did this were john mackenzie, ralph jordan, ruth archer,folkie dave, to name a few, it should have been stopped long before it was.
i too have received personal abuse, there was some anonymous person who claimed i had run a concertina workshop at lewes and that i was incompetent, the organiser of the lewes workshops pointed out that i had in fact never done a workshop for them, what sort of people do this stuff, malicious, nasty, sneaky cowards, the same sort of people who go informing and sneaking to the owners of concertina net, people with malicious hidden agendas.
then we have the curious banning from this site of roger galt[shambles]
ok, moderators are all volunteers trying to do their best, but on both occasions they have either acted too late or unfairly.
my suggestion is that the bs site is closed


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 02 Apr 13 - 05:38 PM

Dick. Thanks for the insulting remarks. You're quite right. I didn't find yout last recording very exciting (Mind you Napalm Deaths last waxing left a lot to be deired too!) You probably think my last CD was crap as well. Your prerogative. I don't mean to lose any sleep over your thoughts on the matter. So, carry on with the insults if you wish. I really don't mind one way or t'other,


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 02 Apr 13 - 06:03 PM

Richard: Your last post is, in part, addressed to me; it seems to be in reply to something I have posted on this thread, on which I have in fact posted nothing but an enquiry about the ex-member Elsie who had been ref'd to; and refers to some points you seem to think I have made which I have no recollection of, & some messages [PMs?] which I have received from you of which I have likewise no recollection.

Here is what you actually posted above ~~

"The inability to discuss certain areas of "political thought" is also a handicap. MtheGM, you DO indeed know what that is as I have messaged you about some of it and teh misuse of your name or image on other sites, so your pretence that you do not know is another aspect of trolling."

It would be an understatement to assert that I have not the vaguest notion as to what you are on about in this post, or how it relates to anything on this thread, to which, I repeat, I have barely contributed, & have certainly made no comment as to the expressability of any view, political or otherwise; or what 'trolling' [a serious accusation in the context of this forum] I am supposed to have been indulging in.

If, as appears possible, you are raking up some old exchanges of which I have no immediate recall, some ref would be helpful in understanding what is going on in your mind.

As it would seem here that I am being attacked for reasons which I find entirely incomprehensible, would it be too much to request some clarification, please?

Thanks in anticipation ~

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Apr 13 - 06:17 PM

Ralphie at it again, trolling and flaming, what the hell has my music got to do with this thread apart from the fact you dissed it before, so why repeat your rudeness?
    you know that you bullied lizzie cornish, and many of your comments to me were personal attacks that were deleted by mods some of those comments used bad language.
I have no comment to make upon your music.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 02 Apr 13 - 07:23 PM

M the GM - please read your own words: "You are free to be anything you want EXCEPT unkind, impolite, argumentative, snooty, or either FOR or AGAINST that of-what*-we-do-not-speak.
.,,.
I hate to appear either naive or ignorant ~~ but what is that, please?"

You know that perfectly well and your faux-naif protestation is essentially a terminological inexactitude.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Apr 13 - 01:45 AM

Dick, I think you are being inconsistent. You pose the question "what the hell has my music got to do with this thread" and yet your very first post on this thread refers to a clip about five string banjo technique -

i very recently came across this helpful you tube clip http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4DWcpYOQM0

What on earth has a five string banjo got to do with it either?

I know you have every right to post on this thread, as does Ralph and anyone else who would care to do so. But I would prefer if it was not derailed by pointless bickering and incomprehensible (to me) arguments.

As I said before, there also seems to be an inability by some folk, and this includes you, Dick, to see that there is a difference between criticism and bullying. Please think about that and see if you can accept that a lot of what you are referring to is indeed valid criticism. When you are a professional artist you must see that not everyone will like you. When they say that they don't, for whatever reason, it is not personal or bullying. It is just what happens to paid performers.

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Apr 13 - 02:58 AM

No, honestly, Richard: I genuinely didn't know what that rule referred to, & really was seeking enlightenment. I am something of a Cat-newbie, remember, less than 4 years, which is something of which you are entirely aware; and that rule, as I have learned from some PMs [for which thank you, guys], was before my time. I do not indulge in terminological inexactitudes, & you really have no basis for, or right to express, any such accusation.

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Apr 13 - 03:35 AM

FFS......I suggest you UK ers take a look at what you have been posting and get a life!

Egotistical nonesense......I dont think our friends in the US are so fucking self absorbed.

They must be splitting their sides laughing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Apr 13 - 04:28 AM

Ake,

I suggest you UK ers take a look at what you have been posting and get a life!

I am a UK er, I have had a look at what I have been posting and I do believe I have a life. I can't see why asking a question about whether fewer people are posting would indicate I have nothing else to do. I have recently moved house, I regularly go to gigs, I used to run a folk club but the move has put me out of the area, I have a family who visit on an alarmingly regular basis, I hike around the countyside, practice the concertina, accordian and guitar and occasionaly wonder if I can actualy fit everyting in! But I still find time to ponder pointless questions occasionaly :-)

What sort of life do you suggest I get?

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Apr 13 - 05:05 AM

dave, the whole kernel of the matter , this is a music discussion forum, clips about music are the only reason i come here.
this site would be better in my opinion if people discussed music only, i can go to facebook[a relatively well moderated site and can read garbage about peoples breakfasts]a site where there is relatively little abuse.
if every member of this site emulated members such as string singer or mcgrath of harlow, this place would be better, it is down to each individual member to look at their posts subjectively and not to have a knee jerk reaction, and take time before they post.
this site needs up dating, the business of having to create a link is outdated.
dave there is a difference between bullying and criticism, and the right to disagree here is an example.

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Subject: RE: my son david dick miles 5 string banjo
From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 02 Apr 13 - 09:22 AM

Apologies Dick - though there are considerable similarities in both.
Jim Carroll
BTW - enjoyed the singing but I feel it doesn't need the banjo.
that is a perfect example of acceptable criticism, telling someone that the less said about their cd is not, it breaks the mudcat rules it is at least impolite, telling someone to fuck off is not, telling someone they will never play in a folk club in the south east is not, telling someone that they will play to smaller audiences is not acceptable., bring in a smear campaign about something that happened on another forum IS NOT ACCEPTABLE
it is up to members to discipline them selves and police them selves


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 03 Apr 13 - 05:40 AM

...........ermmmm, I may be mistaken, but I think I read in the FAQs for this site that it's recommended that squabbling should not continue on open forum but instead be continued via pm's.

That way,the almost perpetual,puerile bickering can be out of sight & if needed more private.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Apr 13 - 05:51 AM

I'm sorry, Dick, but I give up. This thread is about why fewer people are posting in general. I am not going to get involved in personal gripes and spurious arguments. Please feel free to continue if you must but I will try to stick to the topic.

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 03 Apr 13 - 06:03 AM

Are fewer people posting?
Yes
Why?
The relentless nature of this particular thread may provide a clue.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Apr 13 - 06:22 AM

Nice one Vic :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Apr 13 - 06:26 AM

That C will not finger. Or hardly. It works out as

3(thumb)
3 (thumb)
2 (capo)
5 (3rd finger barre)
5   (3rd finger barre)
5    (3rd finger barre)

Or you could use ring and little finger and leave the top string open.

NOT handy in a hurry harry!


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Apr 13 - 06:27 AM

Oops, wrong Fred


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 03 Apr 13 - 07:35 AM

Looking at the steadily worsening aggro, I'm inclined to think your question is being answered very clearly, if somewhat longwindedly Dave.


""JtS: I certainly did mean above the line. And I know of two young people (under 20) who joined and quit because of the nasty way they were treated when they tried to discuss things in the music section.""

JtS has a point.

I can't be the only one, other than him, who has seen an unfortunate newby, ignorant of Mudcat ways, get thoroughly squelched by certain members who seem to lie in wait for them, almost eager to deliver a "Read the f**king manual" response.

While I'm in the mood, it seems ironic that people from the music section who are constant whiners about what they see as the aggression and bullying in political threads below the line, seem to be perfectly happy to dscend and knock seven barrels of crap out of each other about their appreciation of music.

More ironic still that one of them should comment that Mudcat would be better without BS, and should more properly be all about his thread above about partial capos.

I'm amazed that the incongruity of this has seemingly bypassed all concerned.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 03 Apr 13 - 07:38 AM

Bag of chips, anybody?


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: GUEST,Peter
Date: 03 Apr 13 - 07:47 AM

The stats are quoted somewhere above and the answer is yes.

My experience is that this is a pretty general phenomenon, or is it that I just look at the wrong forums?

OK, Mudcat has its own internal issues as expounded at tedious length in this thread but is that the sole reason for the decline?


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: number 6
Date: 03 Apr 13 - 08:41 AM

John Mackenzie ... sure, I'll take you up on that offer for some chips, thanks ... pass the bag over here.

I have few minutes to spare before I go and fold the laundry.

biLL .. :)


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Apr 13 - 08:46 AM

Are they done in vegetable oil or beef dripping?

:D


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 03 Apr 13 - 08:54 AM

Shoulder oil, I think.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish
Date: 03 Apr 13 - 10:19 AM

Dick, just listening to you singing 'My Son David' again...and enjoying every minute of it. :0)


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Apr 13 - 11:04 AM

Whale Oil Beef Hooked!

:D


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: Jeri
Date: 03 Apr 13 - 11:28 AM

Dave, if you want people to believe you aren't a stalker and a bully, you should maybe stop acting like one.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Apr 13 - 11:53 AM

here is an example of Don T, BREAKING THE RULES OF MUDCAT.
calling someone a dope is impolite, provocative flaming trolling, just one example of a ridiculous assault by don and jim carroll upon keith a of hertford. i do not have a strong opinion on tis subject either way , but i do believe keith has a right to state his point of view without having this kind of endlleess crap thrown at him.
Don your tedious mud slinging on this forum along with jim carroll,is in my opinion does not portray you in a good light, and gives mudcat a bad name.From: Don(Wyziwyg)T - PM
Date: 06 Feb 13 - 05:53 AM

""Don, was Britain invaded thousands of times in 1940.
Of course an airstrike is not an invasion, silly!""

You really are a dope! Britain was in an ongoing formally declared situation of armed hostilities with Germany, hostilities which were currently operating on both sides.

""Syria has invaded Israel several times and fired thousands of artillery rounds into Israel.""

Since you cannot, or will not answer awkward questions, I'll save you the trouble.

The last time open hostilities (Official State of War) existed between Israel and Syria was the 1973 Yom Kippur War.

Since then the following have occurred:-

""The Israeli Invasion of Lebanon (1982-1984)--In response to repeated guerrilla attacks by the PLO, which were launched from South Lebanon, Israel invaded with the intent of destroying Arafat's forces. Syria, which maintained a large army in Lebanon, fought Israel and suffered an embarrassing defeat. See The Israeli-Lebanon Conflict (1978-Present).

Israeli Air Strike on Syria (October, 2003)-- Israeli warplanes hit the Syrian village of Ain al-Saheb, near Damascus.

Israeli Air Strike on Syria (Sept. 6, 2007)—Israeli warplanes overflew northern Syria, dropping ordnance on a (publicly) unknown target. According to both the New York Times and ABC News, the target was a nuclear facility being built with North Korean aid and assistance. See War and Conflict Journal's article on this attack.

As of April, 2010, tensions between Syria and Israel were rising, with Israeli sources indicating that Syria was transferring powerful Scud missiles to the Hezbollah Islamist militia in Lebanon. See an interesting article about the possible ramifications of this development toward a possible new Israel-Syria war at Plotting the Next Mideast War

Nakba Day Border Incidents-on May 15 and June 5, 2011, Palestinian demonstrators demostrated on the Syrian-Israeli border, and attempted to cross the border into Israel. Israeli security forces opened fire, killing several of the protestors. Syria claimed up to 23 were killed and hundreds wounded in the June 5 incident. Israel accused Syria of planning and instigating the incident to draw attention away from Syria's own internal uprising.

Golan Heights Tensions (2012)--With the increasing violence of the Syrian Civil War, The appearance on November 3, 2012, of three Syrian tanks in the demilitarized zone near the UNDOF buffer in violation of the cease-fire agreement raised tensions.

Israeli-Syrian Fighting Along Golan Border (2012)

    November 11, 2012, in the midst of a battle between Syrian government forces and rebels, the Syrian army fired a mortar shell that landed near an Israeli Defense Forces (IDF) outpost at Tel Hazeka in the Golan Heights. The Israeli forces then fired back into Syrian territory. This marks the first time since the conclusion of the 1973 Yom Kippu/Ramadan War that Israel has fire into Syria from their positions in the Golan Heights.

    November 12, 2012-- In response to another artillery round from Syria which landed near an Israeli post, Israeli tanks fired back, making a direct hit on the Syrian artillery units that fired into Israeli--held Golan territory.

    January 30, 2013--Israel launched air strikes into Syrian territory. Among the targets were a convoy believed to be transferring arms from Syria to Hezbollah, and Scientific Studies and Research Center in Jamarya northwest of Damascus, which was believed to be a biological weapons research center. The Israeli planes entered Syrian airspace near Mt. Hermon, flying in low at dawn to avoid radar detection.

Sources and Links:

    http://world.time.com/2013/02/01/the-fallout-from-the-air-raid-on-syria-why-israel-is-concerned/#ixzz2JlofwUYJ""

So Syria is responsible for:-

One demonstration in which only Syrian demonstrators were killed and wounded.

Three Syrian tanks in the de-militarised zone.

One mortar shell and one artillery round landing in the Golan Heights (which, since they took place during the current internal civil war in Syria, may well have been accidental).

April, 2010, Israeli sources indicating that Syria was transferring powerful Scud missiles to the Hezbollah Islamist militia in Lebanon (even if you believe in the honesty of those sources, "indicating" hardly implies certainty).

January 30, 2013 a convoy believed to be transferring arms from Syria to Hezbollah, and Scientific Studies and Research Center in Jamarya northwest of Damascus, which was believed to be a biological weapons research center (again "believed" to be hardly implies certainty. Geedubyah "believed" that Saddam had WMDs.)

Moving on, in the same period Israel is responsible for:-

Invading Lebanon and routing forces from Syria, which were defending that country, with devastating effects on the Lebanese infrastructure.

Air Strike on Syria (October, 2003)-- Israeli warplanes hit the Syrian village of Ain al-Saheb, near Damascus (no reason given for that one).

Air Strike on Syria (Sept. 6, 2007)—Israeli warplanes overflew northern Syria, dropping ordnance on a (publicly) unknown target. According to both the New York Times and ABC News, the target was a nuclear facility being built with North Korean aid and assistance (presumably somebody leaked that story, maybe Israeli intelligence, d'ye think?).

The above is the historical record of interaction between Israel and Syria since 1973, 40 years ago.

Where are the thousands of artillery shells fired into Israel?

Where is the State of declared war?

Based on what has actually happened, rather than on Keith's flights of Pro Israel fancy, which of the two looks more like the aggressor?

It's a simple question.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Apr 13 - 12:03 PM

more abuse from don t.personally Ithought KEITH A WAS REMARKABLY RESTRAINED. THIS SORT OF TEDIOUS CHILDISH BEHAVIOUR IS WHAT IS DRIVING PEOPLE AWAY FROM MUDCAT
it is why i think the bs section serves little purpose.look at this nasty post calling someone a f####wit is out of order
Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T - PM
Date: 14 Feb 13 - 10:54 AM

"Not true", or "Didn't happen", or "They closed the tunnels", are not answers, they avoid answering.

You routinely post such nonsensical responses to avoid having to justify your attitudes to a multitude of subjects.

A full screen of evidence that there is more than one possible reason gets the response "They closed the tumnnels".

Duhh! We knew that F**Kwit, we were discussing why, and who was responsible.

What do you believe was the constructive contribution to that discussion resulting from your inane comment?

Dishonesty is very much a part of your bag of tricks, not ours. You don't even post opinion any more, just denial, and your input has become a pathetic waste of hot air.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Apr 13 - 12:57 PM

Not sure what brought that on but be honest, Jeri, I couldn't give a toss what people I neither know nor care about think. I know the truth. Now, having said that I will repeat what I said earlier. I am not going to get involved in stupid arguments and petty bickering so excuse me if I don't say any more.

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 03 Apr 13 - 01:56 PM

(note the use of my real name) Dick. The fact that I always use my real name, (unlike you) Tends me to think that I'm in no way a troll. As for flaming. all I've ever said is that I personally find your music a bit dull. Just my opinion. I find Mariah Careys music a bit dull. along with Wagner. and many others as well; I can't recall ever swearing at you (or indeed anyone!) Carry on insulting me if you like. It doesn't bother me. But your recordings don't feature on my I Pod. (as I'm sure mine don't feature on yours) Hope the rest of day is good.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Apr 13 - 01:59 PM

"I know the truth." Yeah, right, Dave! ;-) Everyone here knows "the truth".

Just ask them. They'll talk your ear off with "the truth".

Everyone here also basically, same as you, doesn't give a toss (or a shit or a tinker's damn or a flying fuck) about what others think about anything, and they're not afraid to say so. Their ruggedly impressive personal independence is akin to that of a Greek God!

And that's why it's such a lovely little place to spend one's time in! ;-D

But getting old isn't easy, is it?


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Apr 13 - 02:02 PM

Ralphie, I don't even have an ipod. I still listen to CDs.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Apr 13 - 02:24 PM

Like falling off a log, LH. Trouble is I have fell off soooo many times :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 03 Apr 13 - 03:10 PM

Ah Little Hawk. Fair point well made. The I Pod lives in the car 2500 songs on shuffle. You never know what's coming next, and no buttons to press!


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 03 Apr 13 - 03:10 PM

""more abuse from don t.personally Ithought KEITH A WAS REMARKABLY RESTRAINED.""

Thank you Richard. I recall you also were considerably less irascible and opinionated back when I was booking you and enjoying your music.

I'm intrigued! Dope, seems rather innocuous as an epithet for somebody who steadfastly refuses all evidence (not just some, ALL) in his determination to whitewash Israeli oppression of Palestine in general, and Gaza in particular, especially if you compare to some of the things he repeatedly calls me, and which you would have seen if you had read the whole thread.

I could just bow out and say nothing, but I seem to recall others in history being called much worse names for turning a blind eye to oppression from an entirely diffent direction.

I happen to believe it is incumbent on an honest man, not to turn away and pass by on the other side.

Your mileage may vary, though I've heard some very questionable language from you too.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Apr 13 - 05:43 PM

It's a different approach to listening to music, Ralphie. I basically grew up in an era when people bought vinyl records of their favorite artists and bands and listened to them at home...not randomly, but quite deliberately, choosing what specific album they were going to listen to rather than selecting something at random from a list of 2500 songs. People listened to the whole album in sequence back then, from the first song to the last song, heard it as a whole work that way, and they usually had about 5 or 10 favorite albums in the collection at any given time.

This is kind of comparable to going to a folk/rock/pop concert....or even to a classical music performance...and paying attention to the same thing for a sustained period of time rather than "channel-surfing" amongst hundreds of different possibilities.

I think it leads to giving the material better attention.

I think that if you give a child 3 or 4 toys, he'll find a lot to do with them....but if you give a child 5,000 toys, he'll get bored very soon, because he doesn't spend enough time with any one of them to get much meaning out of it. His imagination has, in effect, been killed through sensory overload, just like his appetite would be killed if he ate (or tried to eat) 10 meals in a single day.

People in this society now are being affected just like that child, in my opinion. They're being (mentally) killed with sensory overload, mostly through the ever-present digital media, advertising, and mass media broadcasting and entertainment...all of which is done to make somebody very rich. That somebody is about 1 % of the population...those at the top of the social pyramid.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Apr 13 - 08:04 PM

I am trying to say that it should be possible to communicate with people with different political opinions in a manner that is not abusive.
Don you happen to be a conservative, I am not, I have never abused you for having different political opinions to me, unlike many people on the folk scene, i make no judgements on people because they vote in a particular way, i judge them on their behaviour to others. you have always treated me well.. ok , but i do not like you or jim getting aggressive to other posters on mudcat, that does not mean i dislike you as a person, it just means I think that you are not handling certain issues on this forum, well.
kieth a hertford, views may or may not be the same as mine, personally I think that the middle east is a very complicated problem, that is full of different shades of grey, but he has a right to argue his case without being bullied, harassed or abused.
nothing on these discussion sites like mudcat about politics will make any difference to their final outcome, certainly nothing from people in entrenched positions, all this name calling is a waste of time
there are also certain people on the folk scene who pretend to be socialist who behave in a capitalistic manner., Ijudge them in the same way, that judgement is made on how they behave and on how i observe they treat me and others.
I repeat joanne crump, dave eyre, ralph jordan,diane easby, john mackenzie amongst others, took part in a bullying campaign against lizzie cornish, I do notbelieve in waving party political flags, but I will not stand by and see other members lives made miserable
Ralph, I refuse to make any comment about your music despite your continued provocation., it has nothing to do with this thread.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: GUEST,surreysinger sans cookie
Date: 03 Apr 13 - 10:00 PM

Sorry - I hit the button there unintentionally. After considering a potential knee jerk reaction posting, I decided that I was not going to put anything into this rapidly degenerating discussion. And looking at it, maybe my last unintentional "comment" was a bit more relevant to the subject matter of the thread than some of the more recent ones ? I'll disappear again...


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Apr 13 - 05:30 AM

BTW, Little Hawk, I only meant I know the truth about me. And even then it is half guessed :-) I know nothing whatsoever about anyone else. In fact, I think more than half of you are a figment of my fevered imagination. But, then again, I am not sure if any brain could dream up some of the more ghastly personas... ;-)

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish
Date: 04 Apr 13 - 06:28 AM

Please read your own words, Dave...for you are right, for once, in that you know NOTHING about me, nor anyone else on here.

So, just stop trying to get others to see ME through your twisted and perverted vision of who you THINK I am, when you know NOTHING about me WHATSOEVER.


As to your words here, I would offer the following advice, which is, Phyiscian, Heal Thyself.

>>>>"...But, then again, I am not sure if any brain could dream up some of the more ghastly personas... ;-)"<<<


I would also like to suggest that Mudcat has a special thread of 'Guest Aliases' where people can see WHO these 'Guests' actually are, their real names being revealed..with the ability to track their posts, so that others can see if they have come in as Guests PURELY to add foul, confusing or nasty comments about others and to others.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 04 Apr 13 - 06:35 AM

""kieth a hertford, views may or may not be the same as mine, personally I think that the middle east is a very complicated problem, that is full of different shades of grey, but he has a right to argue his case without being bullied, harassed or abused.""

I am as aware as the next man of the complicated nature of the Middle East situation. I am also aware of the infinite number of shades of grey between black and white.

Keith A is not! For him:-

Where Israel is concerned, there is only Black and White, Good and Evil.

Israel = White; Good!
Palestine Black; Evil!

Where Israel is concerned, there are no complications! Israel = Right!

Just trot through his posts on the subject and really look at what he says.

"He can substantiate all his claims!" Why, do you suppose, does he never do so?

Look at his response to evidence presented, from whatever source. Does he examine, assess, check, before deciding whether to accept or reject?

Does he buggery! All sources, including Israeli ones, are immediately dismissed out of hand as "anti Israel", "antisemitic", or just plain "liars".

All eye witnesses are liars, all publications are anti Israel, and the UN is antisemitic.

He is incensed by the fact that the Islamic members of the UN (whom he refers to as ""nasty little Islamic republics"") are able to push through resolutions to redress Israeli transgressions, but not willing to admit there were transgressions to redress.

This one eyed, blinkered, hard line pro Israeli bigot is the man you describe as ""REMARKABLY RESTRAINED"".

How long must anyone be expected to remain polite to him?

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Apr 13 - 07:35 AM

I lost my last post :-( Ah well. I'll try to remember it as best as I can and apologies if I have posted it and it was, for some reason, deleted. If it was the latter - can whoever deleted it let me know please?

Like the earlier one of Jeris I am not sure what brought Lizzies rant on but I shall try to answer the questions it seems to pose -

1. I have never pretended to know anyone any better than I do.
2. I do not try to get anyone to see her as anything.
3. I have never posted as anyone but myself. I have changed my name twice and back again but that was completely transparent and available for all to see.
4. I have never, apart from by accident and due to teh cookie monster, posted as Guest.
5. I do not know what I am supposed to be healing and, finaly
6. I don't need to read my own words - I wrote them:-)

Maybe there is some confusion as to who I am but I can assure all concerned that there is only one of me!

Then, coming back to the thread, perhaps a factor in peopel posting less is the number of confusing comments?

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Apr 13 - 07:44 AM

Oh - Just noticed -

nor anyone else on here.

That isn't true. I do know some of the people on Mudcat very well. Having met, played, sung and drank with them I think I can safely say that!

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Apr 13 - 08:46 AM

I believe that one must try and be polite whatever someones political opinions, entrenched positions gain nothing, likewise most political discussions on this forum achieve little imo.
for the record, last easter sunday, i stood out in the pissing rain for an hour demonsrating against irelands austerity cuts, in my opinion, if you want to try and change something get out and demonsrate, being impolite to others on this forum will not change anything.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: theleveller
Date: 04 Apr 13 - 09:19 AM

So are fewer people posting? Well I, for one, only post occasionally now, and returning for a quick look from time to time reinforces my decision. For the reason, you just have to look at some of the posts on this thread and others, particularly on BS, by the Mudcat lunatic fringe. I've never felt bullied – I'm more than capable of sticking-up for myself - but, much as I love a good 'discussion', I've realised that nothing you say on here is ever going to change anyone's opinion and will, instead, merely add to their onanistic lust for controversy. And, quite frankly, I've got better things to occupy me these days than pissing into the wind. Pity, really, because there are some good people around – I agree that Bruce, in particular, is a complete sweetie, but we can keep in touch directly now – and although I've made some real friends over the years, most of them no longer come around here anymore.

I'll continue to drop in occasionally and you may see me around t'internet now and again (I've a few projects on the go, mainly creative, environmental and poetic), either as theleveller or as my alter-ego, Pete Thompson.If you do stumble across me, say 'hi'.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Apr 13 - 10:33 AM

Oh I see, Dave. Okay, fair enough then.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: GUEST,The Ghost of Corridus
Date: 04 Apr 13 - 10:45 AM

I don't know about people, but fewer hamsters have been posting since I died.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Apr 13 - 11:11 AM

Don, you misrepresent me, and my views.
Nothing you just said about me is true.
I have rebutted all your accusations on the Israel thread.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are fewer people posting?
From: MartinRyan
Date: 04 Apr 13 - 12:29 PM

The crucial question is - At what stage does the Mudcat community acknowledge the degree of change, ask Max to change the site's badging - and cease luring in the musically-inclined under false pretences? . Simples, really.

Regards


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