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[Formerly BS:] Musical snobbery

GUEST,DDT 02 Feb 13 - 05:01 PM
gnu 02 Feb 13 - 05:42 PM
framus 02 Feb 13 - 07:11 PM
GUEST,mg 02 Feb 13 - 07:32 PM
GUEST,leeneia 02 Feb 13 - 08:22 PM
JennieG 02 Feb 13 - 08:37 PM
Bobert 02 Feb 13 - 08:39 PM
Jeri 02 Feb 13 - 08:44 PM
Jeri 02 Feb 13 - 08:47 PM
Janie 02 Feb 13 - 09:01 PM
Rapparee 02 Feb 13 - 09:23 PM
Bobert 02 Feb 13 - 09:37 PM
GUEST,999 02 Feb 13 - 09:59 PM
Donuel 02 Feb 13 - 10:38 PM
number 6 02 Feb 13 - 11:07 PM
GUEST,DDT 02 Feb 13 - 11:21 PM
Will Fly 03 Feb 13 - 04:00 AM
GUEST,Big Al Whittle 03 Feb 13 - 05:46 AM
Mr Happy 03 Feb 13 - 06:03 AM
GUEST,Eliza 03 Feb 13 - 06:09 AM
GUEST,Eliza 03 Feb 13 - 06:10 AM
Will Fly 03 Feb 13 - 06:26 AM
melodeonboy 03 Feb 13 - 06:41 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 03 Feb 13 - 07:33 AM
GUEST,Lighter 03 Feb 13 - 07:53 AM
GUEST,999 03 Feb 13 - 09:43 AM
Ron Davies 03 Feb 13 - 10:21 AM
number 6 03 Feb 13 - 10:24 AM
GUEST,Eliza 03 Feb 13 - 10:33 AM
Ron Davies 03 Feb 13 - 10:35 AM
Will Fly 03 Feb 13 - 10:44 AM
Ron Davies 03 Feb 13 - 10:47 AM
Ron Davies 03 Feb 13 - 10:51 AM
Will Fly 03 Feb 13 - 10:54 AM
Ron Davies 03 Feb 13 - 10:57 AM
Will Fly 03 Feb 13 - 10:59 AM
selby 03 Feb 13 - 11:02 AM
GUEST,999 03 Feb 13 - 11:03 AM
Mr Happy 03 Feb 13 - 11:03 AM
Ron Davies 03 Feb 13 - 11:10 AM
GUEST,DDT 03 Feb 13 - 11:14 AM
Will Fly 03 Feb 13 - 11:17 AM
Rapparee 03 Feb 13 - 11:23 AM
GUEST,DDT 03 Feb 13 - 11:45 AM
GUEST,Eliza 03 Feb 13 - 01:17 PM
Rapparee 03 Feb 13 - 01:40 PM
GUEST,999 03 Feb 13 - 01:44 PM
Will Fly 03 Feb 13 - 01:49 PM
GUEST,Eliza 03 Feb 13 - 01:50 PM
Rapparee 03 Feb 13 - 01:55 PM
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Subject: BS: Musical snobbery
From: GUEST,DDT
Date: 02 Feb 13 - 05:01 PM

Are we all musical snobs at some point? Is there a point at which it is justified? What do you think musical snobbery is?


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Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: gnu
Date: 02 Feb 13 - 05:42 PM

I am not one. I just don't associate with people who groove on Baptist hymns. It ain't a musical thing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: framus
Date: 02 Feb 13 - 07:11 PM

I must admit I can't stand modern pop, and DO rather think it has little musical merit. But then, I'm awfully old!


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Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 02 Feb 13 - 07:32 PM

everyone has a right to assembly and that includes music you like..if you don't like it you don't have to listen to it. you do not need to make snooty comments etc...but you are under no obligation in my world at least to try to stand it if it hurts your ears.


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Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 02 Feb 13 - 08:22 PM

Can't a person dislike something without being called a snob? Music is complicated, and a person's inborn response is even more complicated. Much of it can't even be verbalized.

My husband doesn't like beets. Does that make him a vegetable snob?


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Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: JennieG
Date: 02 Feb 13 - 08:37 PM

To answer the original question, I would say that musical snobbery is denigrating other people's taste in music. It doesn't matter if we all share each other's taste or not.....heavens, the world would be a dull place indeed if we all liked the same things, whether it be music, books, films, anything at all......but just because someone doesn't share your taste doesn't make them better or lesser than you.

I like many music genres although rap music leaves me cold, as does doof-doof head banging music, and modern so-called 'country' music does nothing for me at all - but you may like them, and that's quite OK.

Now I am off to play my ukulele.

Cheers
JennieG


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Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Feb 13 - 08:39 PM

I am a complete musical snob... I mean, 100% USDA Choice...

I hate bad music!!!

B;~)


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Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: Jeri
Date: 02 Feb 13 - 08:44 PM

At what point does what you call "personal preference" become what others call "snobbery"?

I read the question earlier, and tried to figure out what I thought, because it's not just music. When does not wanting to date people because they look a certain way, are from certain a place, like things you don't like, become snobbery? When does preferring wine to beer, or silk to polyester become snobbery? We all have things we like better than other things.

I think "musical snobbery" is when a person's dislike of certain music use it as license to ridicule other people for what they prefer. To belittle them or their music. To bitch, whine, piss, and moan about it. It's an enormous turn-off. Maybe it's a way of bonding with like-minded jerks, but I hate it. I'd rather not hear about what these people don't like.

And a logical extrapolation is, if you think it's acceptable to ridicule the music someone likes, you probably ridicule all sorts of things about other people.

(The word "you" isn't aimed at anyone in particular.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: Jeri
Date: 02 Feb 13 - 08:47 PM

It took me a long time and a lot of words to say, basically, what JennieG said so concisely.


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Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: Janie
Date: 02 Feb 13 - 09:01 PM

What Jenny and Jeri said. Because I don't care for some music doesn't make it bad music. Just makes it music I don't care for.


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Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: Rapparee
Date: 02 Feb 13 - 09:23 PM

I'm not a musical snob, like Bobert I enjoy good music, from blues to baroque.

But as for musical instruments, well, you always hear about the "last trumpet" and Joshua knocking down the walls of Jericho with trumpets, and trumpets being used to announce royalty. I mean, can you even imagine the Day of Judgement being announced by the Last D7minor? Has any great leader been announced by the sound of saxophones? We all know that the trumpet is THE instrument, right?


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Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Feb 13 - 09:37 PM

No, Rap... I just said I hate bad music...

I love good music... Doesn't much matter style... I can tell bad opera from good opera... Bad rap from good...

Just a matter of listening to enough to hear it correctly...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: GUEST,999
Date: 02 Feb 13 - 09:59 PM

I like music and voices that are in tune.


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Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Feb 13 - 10:38 PM

I was just watching piano guys you tube videos. My son must have linked you tube to his facebook since a message board appeared over my video that said
:# Three friends have just unfriended you#:


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Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: number 6
Date: 02 Feb 13 - 11:07 PM

I'm a music snob

I admit it

but

could someone define what 'bad' music is?

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: GUEST,DDT
Date: 02 Feb 13 - 11:21 PM

I feel we are entitled to dislike any music we want to. However, it's when we slag off every genre but a certain one that I consider musical snobbery. I'm a jazz musician primarily and I have played with people for whom jazz is the only music ever made that has any value at all. Everything else is an abomination. I hate that. Jazz ain't everything.

Then there are snobs within the genre. I have played with Dixieland musicians who intensely hate any other jazz and refuse to play it. Now, I love good Dixieland but, damn it, there's way more to jazz than just that stuff. Anyone who can tell me that Charlie Parker or Ornette Coleman or Bill Evans or Oscar Peterson or Ray Brown are an abomination to jazz are beyond being a jazz snob, that's being the hemorrhoids on a jazz snob's asshole.

However, with that said, I feel as an earlier poster--I cannot stand modern pop or country. I feel they make absolutely no contribution to culture. Yes, that's a subjective thing but I'm hard-pressed to see any value here. Country, for example, has become a one-hit wonder factory. In country, you get to have one hit and then you shut up and sit down. How can you make a contribution to anything when you can't grow as an artist? The exception appears to be Taylor Swift who is the least listenable of any country artist I have heard in the last few years--in my opinion, you don't have to agree.

Here's the thing, a lot of country fans are snobs. Not all of them. But many of them are. It turns out a lot of these people know next to nothing about Bob Wills or Hank or the Delmore Brothers or Spade Cooley or Skeets McDonald or Patsy Cline. Those that know of them, don't even like them and admit they would never buy their music and yet they call themselves country fans. But they've admitted they only like one particular subgenre of country and the rest can go to hell. That's snobbery--period. It's like country music has been taken over by snobs. Ignorant morons proud of their ignorance.

It's like this guy I encountered online about a year ago. He tells me he is a rockabilly fan. Great, I said, I love rockabilly. I mentioned Gene Vincent and Eddie Cochran and the Johnny Burnette Trio and Janis Martin. He responds with, "I don't listen to any of that. I only listen to modern British rockabilly."

"Not even Elvis? There wouldn't even be rockabilly without him."

"No."

Now, it's one thing to say you PREFER modern British rockabilly (which I have nothing against) but to tell me it's ALL the rockabilly you listen to and you have no interest in the American artists that started it all or in the modern rockabilly of America or any country outside of Britain IS snobbery. You can't call yourself a rockabilly fan when you are as ignorant of most of that genre as someone who has no interest at all in rockabilly. To assume British rockabilly is all the rockabilly there is and the rest of it isn't worth your precious time to even give a cursory listen to presses the boundaries of musical snobbery and borders dangerously on total dipshitism.

Such people deserve to be ridiculed (which may make me a snob in the eyes of some posters here) except they are not worth the energy of doing so. I find them sad and pathetic.


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Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: Will Fly
Date: 03 Feb 13 - 04:00 AM

I play traditional tunes (had a ceilidh gig last night)

I play jazz (got a gig coming up this lunchtime)

I played 50s rock'n roll and some rockabilly (US & UK) for 13 years

I played New Orleans & Memphis soul'n funk for 15 years

I played in a blues band when I was in college

I sing and play at folk sessions and singarounds and in clubs

I played viola in the school orchestra when I was a kid

I played boogie-woogie piano in pubs in the days when many pubs had pianos

All good stuff. Snobbery, musical or otherwise, is losing perspective about the world around you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: GUEST,Big Al Whittle
Date: 03 Feb 13 - 05:46 AM

Keep trying Will, you'll find one you like eventually.


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Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: Mr Happy
Date: 03 Feb 13 - 06:03 AM

Like/ dislike, all entirely subjective & personal.

In our sessions if I didn't like something, I'll express it this way; 'I don't like that song, but you performed it very well' - goes down well, a bit of humour & doesn't offend anyone nor put them down


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Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 03 Feb 13 - 06:09 AM

Snobbery of any sort is pure arrogance and should be eshewed in others and conquered in oneself.


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Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 03 Feb 13 - 06:10 AM

eschewed!


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Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: Will Fly
Date: 03 Feb 13 - 06:26 AM

Eshewed! Bless you, Eliza!

Al - that's the problem -I love 'em all! So much music - so little time... :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: melodeonboy
Date: 03 Feb 13 - 06:41 AM

I've been told several times that I'm a musical snob or narrow-minded, primarily on the basis that I don't like pop music (new or old!). What's interesting is that those who made those comments would, for the most part, not entertain listening to the folk, blues cajun, African music, jazz et al that I listen to.

I had a rolling of the eyes and old-fashioned looks when I recently asked who Cheryl Cole was. Likewise when someone at work told me that they'd been to see Rihanna (correct spelling?) and I asked who she was (assuming that she was a mutual friend!).

The most pernicious kind of musical snobbery is the (inverted?) snobbery of the musical orthodoxy that is promoted on mainstream radio and television, and imposed on us in clothes shops, supermarkets and in the workplace. (Many years ago I did 12-hour night shifts in a plastics factory and had to endure non-stop night-time Radio 2; and I still bear the scars! :-) )

Slight thread drift, but ask yourself how many people today can listen to (and enjoy/appreciate) a song or piece of music without saying one, some or all of the following:

I like it because...

1. I really fancy that bloke/girl in the band.
2. their music video was great.
3. I've heard it so many times on the radio that I know all the words and I can sing along to it.
4. I heard it so many times during my formative years, and it reminds me of my youth.
5. their costumes are really cool.
6. I saw them on that glitzy telly programme and they were judged to be really good.
7. I saw him/her/them on telly and I got emotionally involved in their private lives.
8. it was on that really cool TV advert that they've been showing over and over again.
9. they play music that sounds like all the other music I listen to, so it's nice and easy.
10. I really liked the dancing.
11. I know they're good 'cos they play them on the radio all the time and they appear on telly.

Yeh, I know, I've said more than enough already, but it might give some of you food for thought!

(And add to the list if you like!)


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Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 03 Feb 13 - 07:33 AM

I think musical snobbery does exist, but perhaps not in the way that has been expressed above.

The musical snobs, to me, are those who like only opera, or classical music, and seek to make them their exclusive property, considering the bulk of their fellow humans unfit to be allowed into their territory.

We've all seen them! The dinner suited, pretentious purchasers of £80 seats at the Royal Opera House or the Albert Hall.

The antithesis of those with a genuine love of the music for its own sake, who inhabit events like last night of the Proms.

They are analogous to the wine snob, who is only interested in the greatest and most expensive vintages, forgetting the fact that the only decent wine is the one the taste of which you most enjoy, whether it cost £100, or £5 per bottle.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 03 Feb 13 - 07:53 AM

You mean there are people who can't tell that opera and symphonic music are more complex and demanding to compose and perform than hip-hop and trad?

No way. If so, they're beyond hope.

I'm not crazy about opera, but even I know that much.


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Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: GUEST,999
Date: 03 Feb 13 - 09:43 AM

"I cannot stand modern pop or country. I feel they make absolutely no contribution to culture."

That may or may not be true, DDT, but I truly doubt any of us got into music because we wanted to make a contribution to culture. As with Will Fly, I have played a few 'types' of music (certainly not to the extent he has), some to skillful levels, some less so. At the end of the day when I look at the stuff I've done, what remains is the fun I had doing it and the connections with other musicians of a similar mind. I like what I like. I don't 'diss' music I don't care for, but I won't tolerate junk for long either. That said, the only thing that will drive me from a room/concert hall is a slightly flat/sharp voice or piercingly loud instrument.

When a person says to me in reference to something I've done--whether it's "that's awesome" or "that sucks"--I tend to say 'thanks for your input'. When someone says "that's good" or "that's bad" I tend to think and sometimes say, "and how the hell would you know (the difference)?"

I think that when people like or dislike music it's a choice they have made based on what they're used to or have come to appreciate in the course of their lives. And I ain't about to argue with that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: Ron Davies
Date: 03 Feb 13 - 10:21 AM

I think it's a question of time.    You can probably teach yourself to appeciate any number of genres--but it might not be worth the trouble.

I have to say I was curious about the current top 40, so I listened to the whole list at the end of the year a few years ago.    It was, sorry to say. a hard task.    I'm afraid I don't want to dedicate any more time to any of that stuff. Not even tempted--though there's a relatively recent group called Train which has some wonderful stuff (maybe since they have a wicked sense of humor, which hugely raises any kind of music in my book).

I love--passionately in fact--a long list of types of music, including orchestral, chamber, jazz, country, bluegrass, doo-wop, other early rock, old counry, even some recent country (a lot of of Brad Paisley, some George Strait, some Miranda Lambert,   I think there are even a few Taylor Swift songs, though please don't make me swear to that), a lot of folk (except navel-gazing writers), some opera (though very few arias), Balkan, Sephardic, madrigals, Sacred Harp, sea chanteys, gospel, spirituals. And the list goes on. Not all of every type.    Hot jazz, rather than cool jazz, for instance.

I'm sorry for people who don't appreciate classical music, for instance, since I get so much pure joy and pleasure from lots of it.   But I think it's just the luck of the draw; I was lucky enough to grow in a house where I heard a lot of it.   

I'll have to admit the only rap song I really like is "Cicada Serenade", which ain't exaxtly the quintessential rap song. I wonder if you grow up listening to a lot of rap, is it really as wonderful experience as some of these other types.   I doubt it--subjects aren't really very uplifting, it seems--but who knows.

But life is too short to inflict music on yourself that you really can't stand.   If this be treason to the folkie ideal of tolerance, then make the most of it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: number 6
Date: 03 Feb 13 - 10:24 AM

I strongly dislike reggae, new country, and rap ... it's not that I think it is below me, or some inferior genre of music, because they are not 'inferior' ... it's just that I do not like it.

I disagree 999 ... pop, country, reggae, rap as all in all music they do conribute to a culture ... it's just may not be your culture.

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 03 Feb 13 - 10:33 AM

Just because certain types of music are 'more complex and more difficult to compose' doesn't necessarily make them superior, or more enjoyable. I personally like the cora and the balofon, and simple African music played softly on them is a joy to me. But anyone could play them, it isn't complex music. Neither is music by the Baka (as in Baka Beyond, a mixed-nationality group playing in the style of people once called 'pygmies'.) But I adore Carmen too, and Beethoven's 5th piano concerto. I like Morris music, folk singing, choral works by Handel, and Thomas Tallis, George Formby, The Singing Postman, R&B, Hip-Hop, etc etc. None of these is 'better' or 'worse' than another, or 'more skilled' or 'too basic', just lovely and uplifting each in their own way.


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Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: Ron Davies
Date: 03 Feb 13 - 10:35 AM

"appreciate"    "as some of these other types?"   "exactly"

Also love early music, especially a cappella.    And a rather large collection of hymns. Lots of parodies. And Western swing--how could I forget that?

Probably some other types.


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Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: Will Fly
Date: 03 Feb 13 - 10:44 AM

Good on you, Eliza - my kinda gel! Come on down to Sussex and indulge in a little Thomas Tallis mixed in with George Formby - oh yes! :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: Ron Davies
Date: 03 Feb 13 - 10:47 AM

Reggae is great stuff.   

It might be interesting to have somebody tell us about the contribution of hip-hop to culture.    It seems to reflect the dregs.   Doesn't seem to be worth the time to try to get to know it.   I suppose you might say something similar about a lot of recent classical music (which sometimes seems to revel in dissonance for its own sake.)   Sure it reflects the hopelessness and chaos of modern civilization, but I think we already get enough of that in the news--don't need it reflected in music.

YMMV


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Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: Ron Davies
Date: 03 Feb 13 - 10:51 AM

Tallis mixed in with Fornby. Mixed how close?   Is that Tallis on ukulele?   That would be amazing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: Will Fly
Date: 03 Feb 13 - 10:54 AM

Ron, if we can do it, we will... :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: Ron Davies
Date: 03 Feb 13 - 10:57 AM

By the way, how much more musical can a topic be?   What's this thread doing slumming it below the line?


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Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: Will Fly
Date: 03 Feb 13 - 10:59 AM

Ron - there's a class of people in society who are trying to find a voice. They're the people who go for hip-hop, rap, gangsta - call it what you will - because it's their way of articulating what they feel and why they feel it. Doesn't matter what you and I think - if this is the voice of urban, black youth, then this is the voice of urban black youth. It has its value for those who make it and listen to it.

It may have no significance for us - certainly not for me - but we should recognise that it has significance...


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Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: selby
Date: 03 Feb 13 - 11:02 AM

I think musical snobbery does exist,it appears when people think they are supporting the ARTS, these people have usually very little back up but talk at length believing they are quite knowledgeable.
I believe in their musical genres there are people like us that will give any music a fair hearing and make an informed opinion. In the UK we struggle with the mass media who likes to ridicule folk music and dance (although that tide is turning) so uninformed people jump on the bandwaggon.
Keith


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Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: GUEST,999
Date: 03 Feb 13 - 11:03 AM

"I disagree 999 ... pop, country, reggae, rap as all in all music they do conribute to a culture ... it's just may not be your culture."

biLL, try reading what I said.


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Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: Mr Happy
Date: 03 Feb 13 - 11:03 AM

If some of the stuff described above wasn't any good or lots of people didn't like it, there'd be no reason for it to exist.

Get into groups & discuss!


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Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: Ron Davies
Date: 03 Feb 13 - 11:10 AM

Will, both Fornby and Tallis were from Sussex?    To say the least, that would speak well for Sussex.


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Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: GUEST,DDT
Date: 03 Feb 13 - 11:14 AM

"I had a rolling of the eyes and old-fashioned looks when I recently asked who Cheryl Cole was. Likewise when someone at work told me that they'd been to see Rihanna (correct spelling?) and I asked who she was (assuming that she was a mutual friend!)."

I know. I don't know any of these new artists. Even when I do, I can't name a song they've done. Their music does to my brain what artificial food does to the body. There's no nourishment there.

And you're right that when you ask people what they like about that performer, you get about every manner of answer except something like: "It's superbly written and performed by an artist so innovative that he/she must hover on the edge of madness in an attempt to express a feverish, ecstatic vision that changes the way we look at country/hip-hop/pop." And you're never going to hear that because people don't listen to that stuff for any such reason. They like it because the lyrics reminded them of the first time they broke up with someone or because it has a "nice beat" (so does my drum machine--thousands of them--but nobody's rushing over to have it sign a recording contract).

Does that make me a musical snob? Some would say yes and others no. But, again, I feel I am entitled not to like this or that genre. Some said ridicule is part of the snobbery and I think that may be correct. I remember about 20 years ago, I was in a studio doing some classical stuff (I am classically trained, after all) and as I was packing up to leave these two rap guys walk in and start talking to the engineer. He liked jazz. They asked me what I liked and I said classical because I was doing almost exclusively classical stuff at the time. They immediately started making fun of classical music. I just stood there and looked at them. I don't like rap but I didn't make fun of it to their faces. When they left, the engineer was furious. "They had no right!" he said. "There's nothing wrong with classical music. They're full of shit. I like classical music way more than rap."

So snobs can come in all genres, races and walks of life. It's not a one-way street.

We're not all going to like the same thing. But there should hopefully be some overlap that we can agree on rather than, "If you don't like what I like then you're a joke."


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Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: Will Fly
Date: 03 Feb 13 - 11:17 AM

Alas, Ron - George Formby was from Lancashire, and Thomas Tallis was probably from London.

But I could imagine owd George joining in with "Spem In Alium" - a religious piece for 4 separate choirs and ukulele...


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Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: Rapparee
Date: 03 Feb 13 - 11:23 AM

My brother was substitute teaching English -- a class on "Hamlet." The students were bored silly, of course.

Then he began discussing the "What a piece of work is man" part. He read it to them as rap ("It's just rhythmic prose," said he) and they began to take notice. By the end of the class they actually thanked him for giving them a new look at The Beard Of Avon!!

You can do this with any rhythmic speech. For example:

Let SPORUS tremble -- WHAT that thing of SILK
That mere white CURD of ASS'S milk
Satire or sense can SPORUS feel?
Who breaks a BUTTERFLY on a wheel?

And in the DOUBTFUL war, before he WON
The Latian REALM, and built the destin'd TOWN;
His banish'd gods RESTOR'D to rites DIVINE,
And settled sure SUCCESSION in his LINE,
From whence the RACE of ALBAN fathers come,
And the long GLORIES of majestic ROME.

"What GAT ye to your dinner, Lord Randall my SON?
What gat ye to your DINNER, my handsome young MAN?"
"I gat EELS boiled in broo: mother, make my bed soon,
For I'm weary wi' HUNTING, and fain wald lie DOWN."

How many ROADS must a MAN walk down
BEFORE they call him a MAN
And how many SEAS must a white dove SAIL
Before she SLEEPS in the SAND?

The problem seems to be in the words - poetry, after all, was meant to be spoken and rhythm was one way to remember the work. No, I don't care for rap. But I do like good poetry.

For your homework, turn into a rap format the complete "Iliad" -- in the original Greek. For extra credit do the same for either "Beowulf" or "Snorri's Saga."


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Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: GUEST,DDT
Date: 03 Feb 13 - 11:45 AM

I think it says something disturbing if kids can't understand poetry without turning it into rap first. I would rather teach them to dismantle a Shakespeare sonnet to learn what it says and then have them do the same to their favorite rap song. THEN they are learning something. They might even learn that that rap song isn't saying a goddamn thing. On the other hand, they might find it's saying way more than they ever realized.


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Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 03 Feb 13 - 01:17 PM

LOL Will Fly! You've conjured up in my head a delicious image of a 40-strong choir spread around Norwich Cathedral's nave (where I once heard Tallis's Spem In Alium to great effect) and George with his ukulele. "Speeeeeeeeemmmm in aaaaalllllii...I'm leaning on a lampost at the corner of the street..." Not to mention "Haaaaaalelujah! Haaa yew gotta a loight bwoy?" One could mix all sorts of genres to quite good effect. Personally I feel there's a lot of 'snobbery' going the other way, in that youngsters consider with utter contempt any other kind of music except their own. It's great to have favourites and to be completely carried away by them, but I can recommend just trying other sorts, you may begin to see why other folk like them so much. I absolutely love Pink, and Lady Gaga. And Adele. Not to mention Bach and Mozart. Why not? They're all excellent!


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Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: Rapparee
Date: 03 Feb 13 - 01:40 PM

If you can get the attention of most students these days, well, you're a good teacher. If you can get them to understand what they are learning AND appreciate it, you're an excellent teacher.

How many students actually analyze what they listen to? For instance, here's one from my own school days:

"(Stop)
Oh yes, wait a minute Mister Postman
(Wait)
Wait Mister Postman

Please Mister Postman, look and see
(Oh yeah)
If there's a letter in your bag for me
(Please, Please Mister Postman)
Why's it takin' such a long time
(Oh yeah)
For me to hear from that boy of mine

There must be some word today
From my boyfriend so far away
Pleas Mister Postman, look and see
If there's a letter, a letter for me"

or

"That fateful night the car was stalled
upon the railroad track
I pulled you out and we were safe
but you went running back

Teen angel, can you hear me
Teen angel, can you see me
Are you somewhere up above
And I am still your own true love

What was it you were looking for
that took your life that night
They said they found my high school ring
clutched in your fingers tight"

It's not the words in those, God knows! But we also studied "good" poetry, and even memorized it! Shakespeare, Bryant, Browning, and others. I've forgotten the lyrics, except when a stray one crosses my mind, but I still can recite from "Macbeth."


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Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: GUEST,999
Date: 03 Feb 13 - 01:44 PM

Tell Laura I Love Her.


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Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: Will Fly
Date: 03 Feb 13 - 01:49 PM

Tell Laura I need her.


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Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 03 Feb 13 - 01:50 PM

In my day (hundreds of years ago) we had to learn and recite many, many poems. We enjoyed it and of course they've stayed in our heads all this time. Meg Merilees, Charge of the Light Brigade, The Lady of Shalott, not to mention long quotes from most of Shakespeare's plays, particularly Othello. I'd like to put forward 'Ode to Billy Joe' as an example of superb music and haunting words. And The Toothbrush Song (Max Bygraves) Surreal!


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Subject: RE: BS: Musical snobbery
From: Rapparee
Date: 03 Feb 13 - 01:55 PM

How about "I told the witch doctor I was in love with you"? Superb lyrics! Or "Love Potion Number 9"?


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