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BS: Mali 2013

Keith A of Hertford 13 Jan 13 - 04:28 AM
gnu 13 Jan 13 - 04:43 AM
Charmion 13 Jan 13 - 07:30 AM
bobad 13 Jan 13 - 07:39 AM
Rapparee 13 Jan 13 - 08:33 AM
bobad 13 Jan 13 - 10:26 AM
Charmion 13 Jan 13 - 10:39 AM
GUEST,999 13 Jan 13 - 10:49 AM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Jan 13 - 12:15 PM
Charmion 13 Jan 13 - 01:40 PM
akenaton 13 Jan 13 - 02:34 PM
akenaton 13 Jan 13 - 02:51 PM
Charmion 13 Jan 13 - 03:02 PM
bobad 13 Jan 13 - 05:45 PM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Jan 13 - 08:32 AM
Charmion 14 Jan 13 - 09:15 AM
GUEST,999 14 Jan 13 - 09:33 AM
Charmion 14 Jan 13 - 01:14 PM
Charmion 14 Jan 13 - 06:53 PM
gnu 14 Jan 13 - 07:13 PM
GUEST,999 14 Jan 13 - 07:17 PM
Little Hawk 14 Jan 13 - 11:58 PM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Jan 13 - 03:12 AM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Jan 13 - 03:16 AM
GUEST,Eliza 15 Jan 13 - 04:22 AM
Charmion 15 Jan 13 - 05:21 AM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Jan 13 - 07:37 AM
GUEST,Branno 15 Jan 13 - 07:57 AM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Jan 13 - 08:08 AM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Jan 13 - 08:10 AM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Jan 13 - 08:13 AM
GUEST,Branno 15 Jan 13 - 08:36 AM
GUEST,Branno 15 Jan 13 - 08:49 AM
GUEST,999 15 Jan 13 - 09:48 AM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Jan 13 - 10:02 AM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Jan 13 - 10:07 AM
GUEST,999 15 Jan 13 - 10:19 AM
GUEST,Jim Knowledge 15 Jan 13 - 10:25 AM
bobad 15 Jan 13 - 10:38 AM
GUEST,999 15 Jan 13 - 10:51 AM
bobad 15 Jan 13 - 10:57 AM
GUEST,999 15 Jan 13 - 10:59 AM
Beer 16 Jan 13 - 12:08 AM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Jan 13 - 03:24 AM
akenaton 16 Jan 13 - 04:47 AM
GUEST,Eliza 16 Jan 13 - 04:54 AM
bobad 16 Jan 13 - 08:54 AM
Richard Bridge 16 Jan 13 - 10:06 AM
GUEST,999 16 Jan 13 - 10:36 AM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Jan 13 - 11:02 AM
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Subject: BS: Mali 2013
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Jan 13 - 04:28 AM

French combat troops take on an Islamist insurgency in Mali.
Britain supplies transport aircraft in support and offers training, US expected to provide logistic support and Germany likely to get involved.
French troops also carry out a raid against Islamists in Somalia.

All these governments say their own nation's security is threatened.

Are they all right to say that the spread of Islam is a threat to us all?


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Subject: RE: BS: Mali 2013
From: gnu
Date: 13 Jan 13 - 04:43 AM

Offers training? Them Brits are sly ain't they?


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Subject: RE: BS: Mali 2013
From: Charmion
Date: 13 Jan 13 - 07:30 AM

Canada already has Special Forces operators in neighbouring Niger and has offered training to that country in the hope of containing the Islamist insurgency in Mali.

It's not lookin' good, folks.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mali 2013
From: bobad
Date: 13 Jan 13 - 07:39 AM

It's not looking good for who?


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Subject: RE: BS: Mali 2013
From: Rapparee
Date: 13 Jan 13 - 08:33 AM

I would be surprised if the US did not have special operations groups there already, as there are in Uganda/Rwanda hunting down the Lord's Revolutionary Army or whatever that bunch calls themselves.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mali 2013
From: bobad
Date: 13 Jan 13 - 10:26 AM

Some background on what's happening in Mali: Al-Qaida carves out own country in Mali


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Subject: RE: BS: Mali 2013
From: Charmion
Date: 13 Jan 13 - 10:39 AM

bobad, it's not lookin' good for Canada's soldiers, who will be handed yet another dreadful, thankless and potentially impossible task in a really, seriously, unpleasant part of the world. Our Army is good, but it's teeny-weeny by power-projection standards, and I am not the only old sweat wondering how such a mission can be sustained, especially if it kicks off before we're out of Afghanistan.

Likewise, it's not lookin' good for the Canadian taxpayer, whose hard-earned simoleons will be flushed down yet another of the world's misery sinkholes.

Tracking?


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Subject: RE: BS: Mali 2013
From: GUEST,999
Date: 13 Jan 13 - 10:49 AM

bobad and Charmion: I read a few days back that Harper said we would not get involved. Has that changed?


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Subject: RE: BS: Mali 2013
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Jan 13 - 12:15 PM

Canada can not afford another fight?
None of us can.

Our governments seem to have decided that the cost of not fighting them now would be even higher, that we can not afford not to fight them.

The French are saying that the Islamists are much better trained and equiped than they expected.
Much of the equipment seems to have been taken from Libya (with the help of France, Britain and US.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Mali 2013
From: Charmion
Date: 13 Jan 13 - 01:40 PM

Harper flatly refused a "direct" mission in Mali, telling the president of the African Union so right to his face during the latter's visit to Ottawa last week. The story's on the CBC website. (I would provide a blue clicky, but that's kinda awkward on an iPad.)

The Special Forces deployment to Niger was announced on Friday afternoon, just in time to catch the Saturday headlines and two days away from any discussion in the House of Commons.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mali 2013
From: akenaton
Date: 13 Jan 13 - 02:34 PM

Isnt it ironic? we assist the Islamists to defeat Gadaffi, watch while they distribute Col Gadaffi's arsenal to Al Qaeda sympathisers all over North Africa.....after arming them to the teeth we now propose to bomb the shit out of them.

Do we understand nothing about foreign policy. How idiotic this shambles of a govt is.

The chickens awakened by the "Arab Spring" are sure coming home to roost........Where are you Bobad and Charlie with your tin drums?


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Subject: RE: BS: Mali 2013
From: akenaton
Date: 13 Jan 13 - 02:51 PM

The Arab Spring...With hindsight?


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Subject: RE: BS: Mali 2013
From: Charmion
Date: 13 Jan 13 - 03:02 PM

Who is Charlie? I know we have a Charley Noble, but he saves his enthusiasm for things with sails.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mali 2013
From: bobad
Date: 13 Jan 13 - 05:45 PM

French planes strike targets in northern Mali


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Subject: RE: BS: Mali 2013
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Jan 13 - 08:32 AM

I was hoping that someone would tell us not to worry.
That Islamism is not really a threat.
That all the Western governments are making it all up to get more oil or something.
Where are the Leftielibs when you need them?


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Subject: RE: BS: Mali 2013
From: Charmion
Date: 14 Jan 13 - 09:15 AM

Maybe even the Leftielibs have woken up to the whiff of coffee.

That's not to say that the Western governments aren't frantic about the future of the international petroleum supply -- they are. But that doesn't make Islamism (I guess that's a word now) any less of a threat.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mali 2013
From: GUEST,999
Date: 14 Jan 13 - 09:33 AM

The so-called Islamic arseholes in Mali have been mutilating people, re-educating folks for singing and playing music. (They are as much adherents to Islam as Satan is to Christianity.) Unfortunately, the Mali troops do not have the skill or training to contain them. So others will do it. If the actions and attacks by al-Qaeda are part of an Arab Spring, Winter will be a fucking joy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mali 2013
From: Charmion
Date: 14 Jan 13 - 01:14 PM

And for those playing the home version of the game, another link to a fiercely critical opinion piece about Canada messing around in northwest Africa:

How Canada helped al-Qaida in Mali by Scott Taylor, published 13 January 2013 in the Halifax Chronicle-Herald


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Subject: RE: BS: Mali 2013
From: Charmion
Date: 14 Jan 13 - 06:53 PM

It seems Canada is offering the French one week of heavy airlift (i.e. one CC-117 Globemaster) to help them deploy a task force into Mali.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mali 2013
From: gnu
Date: 14 Jan 13 - 07:13 PM

No Hercs, Charmion? ;-)

That will only be SLIGHTLY funny (if at all) to Canuck military personnel and Canuck news readers.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mali 2013
From: GUEST,999
Date: 14 Jan 13 - 07:17 PM

It'll carry about 160,000 pounds so it's more than it may seem.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mali 2013
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Jan 13 - 11:58 PM

To make "Islamism" (or Islam) the enemy guarantees a permanent war that can be fought all over the world and never be brought to a conclusion unless everyone gets so sick and tired of it that they just can't be bothered tuning into the idea any longer. Sounds like an absolute dream for arms dealers to me. After all, we had to do something after the Fall of Communism! You can't let war just end, for God's sake! It would hurt business.

By the way, a great war against Islam has been tried before. Several times, in fact. It was called "The Crusades", among other things. They finally gave it up and found other pressing reasons to fight wars, but that doesn't mean we can't revive the old concept in the 21st century, does it? ;-)

It's a little known fact that one of the more obscure verses in the Koran even mentions "Keith A of Hertford" (translated from the Arabic words "Ke'itah al Her'tfir") as a future "mortal enemy of Allah", an arch heretic, and a "Satanic deceiver", kind of comparable to the AntiChrist in the Christian tradition. ;-) So, Keith, I think your paranoia and your deep sense of concern on this matter is quite appropriate, and I would advise that you convert your digs into a heavily armed fortress to prepare for the inevitable Islamic assault that is surely coming to your own neighborhood to wipe YOU right off the map! Watch out for swarthy men with beards, robes, typical Islamic headgear, and old well-thumbed copies of "Terrorism for Dummies" tucked in their backpacks. They are out to get YOU personally. And YOUR family. And YOUR way of life. And all you hold dear. They intend to eliminate scones, ban the eating of pork sausages, replace the Queen with the Khalif, and enforce Sharia law in places like Bath and Whining-on-Trent. They MUST be stopped!

***

Happy now? ;-D


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Subject: RE: BS: Mali 2013
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Jan 13 - 03:12 AM

There are many interpretations of those verses.
Many scholoars say they refer to a serene sage of the shires, who is to come to spread wisdom among the unbelievers.

You think France is wrong to intervene?


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Subject: RE: BS: Mali 2013
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Jan 13 - 03:16 AM

BBC today.
The UN Security Council has unanimously backed France's military intervention in Mali to fight Islamist rebels, officials have said.

UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon said he hoped the intervention would help restore "Mali's constitutional order and territorial integrity".

Thousands of African troops are due to join Malian and French forces to help push back the rebels' offensive.


So, not just me then.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mali 2013
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 15 Jan 13 - 04:22 AM

On Channel 4 '4thought' yesterday evening, a fundamentalist British Muslim was given his 4 minutes to expound the benefits of Shariah Law for the UK. He arrogantly maintained that we were ignorant and prejudiced, and thought that Shariah meant only cutting off thieves hands and stoning women to death for adultery. He continued that it is, however, 'a beautiful thing' and would prevent all crime here and restore a tranquil, disciplined society. He continues his efforts to educate us and persuade us that we would do well to adopt 'the Shariah' for our own good. My husband (a moderate Muslim) had steam coming out of his nostrils like an enraged bull. I (for once) was totally speechless.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mali 2013
From: Charmion
Date: 15 Jan 13 - 05:21 AM

The UN Security Council seemed pleased with Operation Unified Protector, the 2011 NATO campaign against the regime of Muammar Ghaddafi that included the bombing of Libya. Look how that turned out.

Regular, professional Western-type armed forces have a dismal record of failure in operations against ideologically motivated insurgents. Just sayin'.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mali 2013
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Jan 13 - 07:37 AM

Agreed, but there seems to be a consensus that some action against the Islamists is needed.
Already it goes badly.
A French helicopter shot down and pilot killed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mali 2013
From: GUEST,Branno
Date: 15 Jan 13 - 07:57 AM

It's the next phase in the new imperial rape of Africa people, and sure as shooting the Africans haven't got over the last one yet by a long shot.

Funny (?) isn't it that a pacifist like meself should have two references to 'shoot' in one sentence... The makes and models of ALL the weapons on ALL sides have their source in the factories of ALL the usual suspects too don't they? ALL the member states of the UN Security Council...

And who can blame the 'Islamists' for being annoyed by the gross arrogance of the 'Christian' western powers? My children are sacred, yours are 'bugsplat', my 'god' (sic) is better than your 'god', nyah nyah nyah.

And then there's the oil, the OIL, don't forget THE OIL! What's OUR oil doing in them goddam furrin parts, eh!? Uppity niggers and towelheads, how DARE they!

Seriously people, isn't it time 'we the people' woke up? I shudder when I think that it may already be too late, that the righteous men with guns are destroying everything in their path, jihads and crusades feeding off each other in a flatland frenzy, mad lustful hateful arrogant bastards all of them, ALL of them!

And don't you dare justify the bullshit, you apologists, OK...
Maybe just imagine for a moment that you yourself are the stranger in a strange land, newly arrived for a look at the culture on planet Earth, perhaps with a view to inviting the human race to join a galactic milieu. Write a report, objectively, dispassionately...
Not very good is it? D-? F? Quarantine this mob?


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Subject: RE: BS: Mali 2013
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Jan 13 - 08:08 AM

Ivory Coast?
Senegal?
Nigeria?
These are all African countries and none are arms manufacturers

The Malians themselves are mostly Muslim.
All these governments support the intervention.
You would tell them what?
Accept what the Islamists impose on you, or let them kill you, but we will not help you?


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Subject: RE: BS: Mali 2013
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Jan 13 - 08:10 AM

Benin, Ghana, Niger, Senegal, Burkina Faso and Togo have also pledged troops.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mali 2013
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Jan 13 - 08:13 AM

ALL the weapons on ALL sides have their source in the factories of ALL the usual suspects too don't they? ALL the member states of the UN Security Council.

Current members include:-
Country        Regional Group        Term Began        Term Ends
Azerbaijan        Eastern European Group        2012        2013
Argentina        Latin American & Caribbean Group        2013        2014
Australia        Western European and Others Group        2013        2014
Guatemala        Latin American & Caribbean Group        2012        2013
Republic of Korea        Asia-Pacific Group        2013        2014
Morocco        African Group (Arabic Representative)        2012        2013
Pakistan        Asia-Pacific Group        2012        2013
Luxembourg        Western European and Others Group        2013        2014
Rwanda        African Group        2013        2014
Togo        African Group        2012        2013


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Subject: RE: BS: Mali 2013
From: GUEST,Branno
Date: 15 Jan 13 - 08:36 AM

OK Keith, correction, ALL the PERMANENT members of the UN security council. The point stands. War is profitable. The 'war on terror' is most profitable as it has no boundaries. The nation states who think to rule the world, in their arrogance and hubris are committing the worst of crimes, meanwhile self=justifying with the worst of lies.

Do you read any of this sort of thing, oh my brother?
http://www.counterpunch.org/2013/01/15/a-new-wave-of-barbarism/


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Subject: RE: BS: Mali 2013
From: GUEST,Branno
Date: 15 Jan 13 - 08:49 AM

Here's the link. I don't argee with everything anyone says mostly. I am however, interested in sane rational examination of the facts.
http://www.counterpunch.org/2013/01/15/a-new-wave-of-barbarism/


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Subject: RE: BS: Mali 2013
From: GUEST,999
Date: 15 Jan 13 - 09:48 AM

"A French helicopter shot down and pilot killed."

That was attributed to mechanical failure in the article I read.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mali 2013
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Jan 13 - 10:02 AM

They have not given the cause of the crash, but
PARIS. – The French intervention in Mali has claimed its first victim. Lieutenant Damien Boiteux of the 4th helicopter regiment special forces, from the southern city of Pau, was killed the afternoon of Friday January 11 in a raid against a terrorist group.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mali 2013
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Jan 13 - 10:07 AM

The Independent today.
12 January Dozens of Islamists killed as Konna is retaken by Malian army. French pilot is killed after helicopter is shot down in the fighting.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mali 2013
From: GUEST,999
Date: 15 Jan 13 - 10:19 AM

The article I read was from Saturday, so I guess it's been updated. Thanks for the info, Keith.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mali 2013
From: GUEST,Jim Knowledge
Date: 15 Jan 13 - 10:25 AM

I `ad that Jean Jacques from the "Le Monde" in my cab last night. `ed been doing bits about the aggro in Mali which was a change from reporting on all the French millionaires doing a runner on the strength of Francois `ollande`s tax grab.
I said, "Bonsoir J.J. It`s a bloody shame about that French chopper pilot getting shot down and killed".
`e said, " Alors, Jeem. Eet was not shot down, eet was beecos of, ow you say, a mechanical failure."
I said, "Oh, yeah, I see. I suppose a ruddy great lump of shrapnel through the rotors could be described like that!!"

Whaddam I Like??


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Subject: RE: BS: Mali 2013
From: bobad
Date: 15 Jan 13 - 10:38 AM

Those who decry involvement in the war against Islamism would do well to listen to the words of this man who has dedicated his life to that fight: Tarek Fatah exposes Islamism for a tyranny that it is .


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Subject: RE: BS: Mali 2013
From: GUEST,999
Date: 15 Jan 13 - 10:51 AM

It IS a war against the perversions of Islam. That said, I get POed when our governments play the terrorist card at every opportunity. The US has bombed eight mostly Muslim countries in the past few years. Couple that with the fact that 40-45% of US exports are armaments, one has to ask, cui bono?

Islam is not our friend. Neither are the bankers/industrialists of the world. So kids get turned into minced meat and so it goes (thank you Kurt). It's an insanity that will lead us down a garden path as it's done so many times before.

Some reading that's worthwhile, although I do not agree with all of it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mali 2013
From: bobad
Date: 15 Jan 13 - 10:57 AM

There is a clear distinction between Islam and Islamism, on is a religion the other an ideology.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mali 2013
From: GUEST,999
Date: 15 Jan 13 - 10:59 AM

I hear you, bobad. I agree, also.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mali 2013
From: Beer
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 12:08 AM

Duh!!
I am sure to look stupid here but I have to ask.

Why is it we can't go into Syria and yet France can just walk in with no objections from Russia or China? Could they have done the same thing?
Or are they in some
type of agreement.
i'm not into the political
theatre
of things and maybe i am missing a very easy answer. Please explain.
adrien


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Subject: RE: BS: Mali 2013
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 03:24 AM

Closer to home, why are those normally so vocal on Mid. East matters and on Western involvement in Muslim lands, so quiet about Syria and now Mali?


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Subject: RE: BS: Mali 2013
From: akenaton
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 04:47 AM

Have to agree with Keith, and why did we encourage "democratic" revolutions, when everyone with half a brain knew what the consequences would be?

Power has been handed to the extreme Islamists, who may be a minority, but weild massive power over a largly uneducated populace.

This is the result of a "liberal" agenda allowed to run wild....there will not always be someone else around to clear up the mess we create.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mali 2013
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 04:54 AM

I'm very sad for Mali if fundamentalism holds sway. These fanatics ban singing, dancing, colourful clothes, art, anything in fact which brightens life. And Mali has an enormously rich culture in this respect, one of the best in the whole of Africa. I hope they don't end up swathed in black burkas/robes silently and meekly obeying their obsessive imams and losing all they have of their centuries-old traditions. My husband's tribe, the Senoufou Malinke, inhabit northern Ivory Coast and southern Mali. In spite of being moderate Muslims they all have a superb sense of culture, song, dance and art.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mali 2013
From: bobad
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 08:54 AM

French forces in Mali launch ground offensive


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Subject: RE: BS: Mali 2013
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 10:06 AM

I see the usual suspects lining up to conflate being an "Islamist" (or "terrorist" with following the religion of Islam or being a bit, well, brown or bearded.

I do wonder however about the motivation of the present Islamist forces in Mali. How do they come by their interpretation of their religion?   But then again I wonder how the US fundagelical right come by theirs.


I'd really like to read the whole of the Koran to understand how it comes to mean so many thing that appear to contradict each other. But there again I did start and even the opening parts made less sense than the revelation of St John the Divine (who had plainly eaten the wrong mushrooms at the time).


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Subject: RE: BS: Mali 2013
From: GUEST,999
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 10:36 AM

Vic Smith posted this link on another thread. I think it has a place here, too.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mali 2013
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 11:02 AM

No-one here has conflated any such things Richard.
France's very Left Wing government has stated that the Islamists in Mali pose a terror threat to France, and many other governments plus UN seem to agree, but no-one here has done any conflating.

Do you think they should be left to impose there will by force on an unwilling people?
Are all those governments' and the UN's fears misplaced?
Where does our Left stand on this one?


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