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BS: Shooting tragedies and guns

Ron Davies 20 Dec 12 - 01:30 PM
John P 20 Dec 12 - 10:40 AM
Greg F. 20 Dec 12 - 10:11 AM
Bobert 20 Dec 12 - 10:06 AM
beardedbruce 20 Dec 12 - 09:59 AM
Greg F. 20 Dec 12 - 09:43 AM
beardedbruce 20 Dec 12 - 09:27 AM
kendall 20 Dec 12 - 09:19 AM
beardedbruce 20 Dec 12 - 09:16 AM
Bobert 20 Dec 12 - 09:00 AM
kendall 20 Dec 12 - 04:22 AM
Bill D 19 Dec 12 - 10:30 PM
Bobert 19 Dec 12 - 09:06 PM
GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz 19 Dec 12 - 08:52 PM
Bobert 19 Dec 12 - 08:07 PM
pdq 19 Dec 12 - 07:58 PM
Bobert 19 Dec 12 - 07:27 PM
Bee-dubya-ell 19 Dec 12 - 07:21 PM
kendall 19 Dec 12 - 07:13 PM
Elmore 19 Dec 12 - 07:08 PM
bobad 19 Dec 12 - 06:44 PM
Bill D 19 Dec 12 - 06:30 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 19 Dec 12 - 06:22 PM
Greg F. 19 Dec 12 - 05:36 PM
McGrath of Harlow 19 Dec 12 - 05:36 PM
Bill D 19 Dec 12 - 05:27 PM
Bobert 19 Dec 12 - 04:52 PM
Greg F. 19 Dec 12 - 04:38 PM
Bobert 19 Dec 12 - 04:34 PM
GUEST,TIA 19 Dec 12 - 04:06 PM
Bee-dubya-ell 19 Dec 12 - 03:49 PM
dick greenhaus 19 Dec 12 - 03:10 PM
GUEST,999 19 Dec 12 - 03:01 PM
Bill D 19 Dec 12 - 02:36 PM
Bobert 19 Dec 12 - 02:35 PM
McGrath of Harlow 19 Dec 12 - 02:27 PM
Bill D 19 Dec 12 - 01:14 PM
Bobert 19 Dec 12 - 01:08 PM
GUEST,TIA 19 Dec 12 - 12:37 PM
GUEST,TIA 19 Dec 12 - 11:36 AM
beardedbruce 19 Dec 12 - 11:18 AM
GUEST,999 19 Dec 12 - 10:57 AM
Charmion 19 Dec 12 - 10:52 AM
GUEST,999 19 Dec 12 - 10:48 AM
John MacKenzie 19 Dec 12 - 10:42 AM
GUEST,999 19 Dec 12 - 10:24 AM
beardedbruce 19 Dec 12 - 10:03 AM
Bobert 19 Dec 12 - 10:01 AM
McGrath of Harlow 19 Dec 12 - 09:52 AM
Bobert 19 Dec 12 - 09:47 AM
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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Ron Davies
Date: 20 Dec 12 - 01:30 PM

An interesting aspect of the situation is that for all the smug assurances that the Supreme Court has already spoken on the question of whether there is a strong link between the right to bear arms and the obligation to participate in a "well-regulated" militia, the fact is that the Heller decision was 5-4.   Swing vote, as often happens, was Kennedy.   I'd think it likely that if a case raising virtually the same issues comes before the Court again, he might well (especially if he reads some history in the interim) influenced by the tragic results of the current gun-rights regime, vote the other way.

If NRA members and other gun owners were actually forced to show up for drills, there would be a sea change in the status quo.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: John P
Date: 20 Dec 12 - 10:40 AM

How many generations will it take to remake the culture of an entire country?

Overt bigotry against black people finally became socially unacceptable only after we passed strong federal laws making discrimination illegal. I don't know which caused which, but I think it would be interesting to find out what would happen to our culture if most guns were illegal and the "official" word on the subject was that gun ownership without proved need was unacceptable. Thirty years from now, it would be nice if elder politicians with youthful ties to the NRA, in order to keep their seats, had to repeatedly apologize for it and explain how their eyes were finally opened to how they were supporting gun violence. Or that overtly violent movies and games would meet the same response that games about being a slave owner or about cleaning out the ghettos would meet today. The same comparisons can be made about the role of women in our society, and which behaviors and words are acceptable and which are not.

Changing the general view of society is possible, and strong federal laws could help with that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 Dec 12 - 10:11 AM

yeah, Bruce, but what about a Klan member who WASN'T wearing a hood?


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Dec 12 - 10:06 AM

Now, now, now...

Ya'll take a chill pill... Ya'll would get along fine... I'm sure...

(...or not...)

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 Dec 12 - 09:59 AM

"First of all, Greg, I don't want to ruin your holiday season but if you were to sit down with bb and have a discussion with him about anything but his politics you'd find him intelligent and very cordial"

Not likely- I would no more sit down with Greggie than you would with a hooded KKK member.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 Dec 12 - 09:43 AM

But Bruce - you haven't posted any valid facts!

Oh, and there's 3 "g's" in Greggie


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 Dec 12 - 09:27 AM

DonT,

"Because Bruce, some of us have been paying attention and know that different states act in different ways, some of them not having the laws you mention.

So, the need is for laws you don't have now. Federal laws overriding states' laws in the interests of public safety nationwide."



I was referring to the requirements for a FFL ( Note the first F is FEDERAL) To transfer firearms OVER STATE LINES requires going through at least one.

The definition in Mass. law of an assault weapon included flintlock one-shot Kentucky rifles- making them illegal to transport THROUGH the state even in locked cases.


Until there is an agreed upon definition of "assault weapon" any law on such is either redundant with present law, ( outlawing automatic weapons for private owners except with stringent and expensive permits,as of 1934) which should be enforced, or is a broad attempt to ban firearms that are suitable for hunting and target shooting. The fact that a firearm has a bayonet lug ( making it a spear!) or a black plastic stock DOES NOT MAKE IT MORE DANGEROUS.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: kendall
Date: 20 Dec 12 - 09:19 AM

Join the club, BB.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 Dec 12 - 09:16 AM

So, Gregie - you must enjoy posting spurious & irrelevent nonsense for the entertainment value alone?

'Cept it isn't entertaining- ... it's just personal attacks and racist lies.


I note you have nothing to say about the validity of what I have posted. If you think that facts are irrelevant, that says more about you and the viewpoint you support than it does about me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Dec 12 - 09:00 AM

Menatl health is an entire "other issue"... And it is so complex that neither the NRA nor the Congress has the slightest understanding...

To have some understanding of just how we have arrived here one has to go back to the early 80s when we collectively decided to spend less on mental health... That meant that a lot of folks who needed inpatient treatment were being pushed out into society for social workers and out-patient mental health professionals to baby-sit, cajole and manage... We've had this discussion before but it might be one worth re-visiting... Several of us here in the Mudpit have or have had hands on experience working with people with mental illness...

The problem isn't just the changed cultural and societal views of folks with mental illness but the logical extension of those prejudices and biases that has led us to collectively spend less and less and less on treating mental illness... "Shake it off, son" is not an option...

So, if the NRA wants to become an advocate for mental health then I'm all for that... Won't fix shit in terms of mass murders for decades, however, without the things that BillD, myself and others have advocated going back years in terms of sensible gun controls...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: kendall
Date: 20 Dec 12 - 04:22 AM

"No plan of how to begin or proceed." that says it all, BillD.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bill D
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 10:30 PM

Bob R,,, if you read my first post, 5 days but 480+ posts ago, *I* noted the story from China.

"Mold those young minds, and MAYBE..." etc...

Sure... I'm all in favor of remolded minds... as soon as you... or someone... figgers out how to DO that molding of minds away from possible murderous violence when they can't even make a dent in school bullying.

You have 10s of millions of young minds who need molding... and millions of adults to do it, most of whom were not well 'molded' themselves... or at least have no specific training in the relevant psychology. How many generations will it take to remake the culture of an entire country? Nice idea... but how about taking away the worst of their dangerous toys until we get them 'molded'?

Sorry, Bob, but yours is about the 27th suggestion of that type I have seen in the last 5 days... all very general and heartfelt with NO plan of how to begin OR proceed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 09:06 PM

Like you, Bob, I have a history with martial arts... Okinawan karate which involves various knives, bo's, etc...

What we have now are a lot of folks who have no skills in much of anything who can kill one shit load of people...

I a fight??? Yeah, I am very concerned with a skilled guy with a knife... Things can go badly very fast...

We don't have time to fix an entire nation of wackos with no real skills in life, arms, martial arts or anything else...

So we have to take some short-cuts for now and work on the larger picture later... We can't afford to allow unskilled whackos to hold us hostage while we rebuild and entire society...

Rethink, Bob...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 08:52 PM

Bill Bill Biil....That kid might not have been able to...with a knife...http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2012/12/14/china-knife-attack-school.html

I am a knife collector. And have been a Martial Arts practitioner for over 57 years. Started when I was ten...Ju-Jitsu...then went on from there...Balisong, etc.

My High School English teacher was a Knife Instructor for the U.S. Army. Looked like he belonged in an accounting office, then there was the other side...

God help us if a trained individual goes wacky, or feels now's the time for payback for whatever injustice he thinks might have been done him...trust me...

It's good that you are searching for solutions, finding some consolation, trying to understand.

What is needed is a more DIRECTED relationship between parent and teacher Hey, Why is Johnny ALONE all the time? No Prom, No dates...You may find that Mommy & Daddy really should not have been, being screwed up all by themselves, or there in name only...and let the kid do what he feels like...

What to do? Observe, then act by having the authorities "have a little talk" with him, nothing heavy. Just Hey Johnny...come here for a bit.

You will not stop guns. The "nutball control" is more in the form of prevention. Mold those young minds, and MAYBE those young minds will develop into responsible adults who say to themselves, "I don't need a gun..."


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 08:07 PM

Yeah, the idea has been around a few years... I think Mark Germino even talks about it in one of his songs...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: pdq
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 07:58 PM

"Elliot Spitzer, remember him... He has brought up a couple other ideas... First, control the bullets... Think about it..." ~ B-pert


Actually, that was the late Pat Paulsen


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 07:27 PM

First of all, Greg, I don't want to ruin your holiday season but if you were to sit down with bb and have a discussion with him about anything but his politics you'd find him intelligent and very cordial... I have and I personally like the guy...

Elliot Spitzer, remember him... He has brought up a couple other ideas... First, control the bullets... Think about it...

Secondly, boycott the parent companies that own the smaller ones that build and push WMD on the American public... Think about it, Part B...

Thirdly, yeah, what Bill D says... Each of us have been in the pits on these threads over the years and we agree on just about everything...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 07:21 PM

How can there be any grounds for someone to claim that a requirement to report a theft of anything at all, let alone a gun, can possibly infringe their rights or harm them in any way?

Take a look at the news article TIA linked to at 4:06 PM. It sounds like the NRA simply doesn't want local governments, Philadelphia in this case, making any firearms related laws. Pennsylvania law gives the right to regulate firearms to the state, not to counties or municipalities. Even though the law seems innocuous, even by gun-nut standards, the NRA doesn't want cities poking their noses into gun issues at all. The NRA doesn't own nearly as many politicians on the Philadelphia city council as it does at the state legislature in Harrisburg.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: kendall
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 07:13 PM

These people who are buying automatic weapons in anticipation of new gun laws, how will they act if congress passes a law making the purchase and possession of them illegal? Seems like a poor investment to me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Elmore
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 07:08 PM

No ak-47's for teachers.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: bobad
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 06:44 PM

Yes Bill, read this article I posted yesterday:http://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=148617&messages=474&page=2&desc=yes#3453868


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bill D
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 06:30 PM

"...firearms enthusiasts are stocking up on assault rifles in anticipation of tighter gun control measures."

Why am I
not surprised


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 06:22 PM

""Many here are making demands for new laws that are ALREADY in place. If they have not stopped gun crimes, why do you think making more laws saying the same thing will do any good????""

Because Bruce, some of us have been paying attention and know that different states act in different ways, some of them not having the laws you mention.

So, the need is for laws you don't have now. Federal laws overriding states' laws in the interests of public safety nationwide.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Greg F.
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 05:36 PM

strange thing is that bb is an intelligent person

Well, I'll defer to you Bobert and believe what you have to say .... but thousands wouldn't.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 05:36 PM

How can there be any grounds for someone to claim that a requirement to report a theft of anything at all, let alone a gun, can possibly infringe their rights or harm them in any way?   What kind of nutty legal system is it. In which any such claim isn't laughed out of court, or penalised as an attempt to waste the court's time?


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bill D
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 05:27 PM

You all know how *I* have argued-- not just on this thread, but for years-- about the various gun laws and the NRA; but now it is important to note how many people with credentials are saying very similar things to what 'ol Bill D is spouting.
Lawyers, legislators, news reporters, ...even some gun owners.. are agreeing that we cannot keep on like this. It is sad that it took such a horrible incident to shake the cobwebs out of some heads. If that boy had 'simply' shot his mother... or had gunned down a couple of policemen on a corner, it would probably just get 2-3 days superficial mention and become just another incident in the list....
   ...but some folks realize that TODAY there may be dozens of other disturbed kids...or even adults.. out there who are seeing this news and tumbling 'odd' thoughts over in their heads about how to make a splash in their own confused lives.

I 'live' my online life 90% in Mudcat, and there are many people here with thoughtful approaches to issues... on all sides of issues. Max says Mudcat will be around for a long time, and my ideas... no matter on serious or frivolous topics... will be here for Google to find... so I WILL reply to what I consider important topics-- especially when I think they need to offset poor reasoning or bad data.....


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 04:52 PM

The starnge thing is that bb is an intelligent person in person but get him in front of a computer and he questions not one source other than liberal or moderate ones... The further right the source the greater the chances are that he'll accept it as 100% true...

But never mind bb... He ain't a bad guy... Just has some wiring problems...

B;~)


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Greg F.
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 04:38 PM

So, Beardie Brucie - you must enjoy posting spurious & irrelevent nonsense for the entertainment value alone?

'Cept it isn't entertaining- ... it's just BS.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 04:34 PM

Yes, brucie... My bad... It was 12,000 to 11...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 04:06 PM

But when the SWAT team shows up, all you really have to do is say "oops, it was stolen".

http://www.newsworks.org/index.php/local/harrisburg/34126-16kcguns

click


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 03:49 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From:GUEST,TIA - PM
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 11:36 AM

My city is being sued by the NRA because they passed a law saying that if your gun is stolen, you must report that theft to the police.
NRA objects to that?!?!? Wouldn't that do some little bit to hinder trafficking in illegal guns.


Hell, if one of my guns were stolen, reporting it to the police would be the FIRST thing I'd do. "Oops! I forgot to report it was stolen!" doesn't carry much weight when someone uses it in an armed robbery three months down the road and the SWAT team arrives in your front yard.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 03:10 PM

I fully believe that no one law will solve the problem.
Having said that, I'd maintain that Any law or combination of laws
can significantly reduce the seriousness of the problem. Which would be a good thing.

Re: "Guns don't kill people..." I wonder how many home runs Babe Ruth would have hit if he didn't have access to a bat.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,999
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 03:01 PM

"11 murders in Japan in 2008 compared to 20,000 in the US"

12,000 in the US.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bill D
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 02:36 PM

" Do they involve checking on whether the purchaser and everyone in their household is completely trustworthy? Do they involve checking that their are adequate storage facilities where the weapons and amo will be kept locked up? "

They should...and if I were in Congress, I'd vote for it... but 1st step is checking the primary purchaser well. If we can even get that, it will be better than what exists.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 02:35 PM

You'd be better off asking the NRA, McG... They hate 'um... That's why when they found out that the existing database was not up to the task in performing the backgound check in a timely manner and many in Congress were all for fixin' it in the early 2000s they fought keeping the system just the way it is...

But you are correct... It in itself is not the end-all-be-all but just one of the pieces...

BTW, there were 11 murders in Japan in 2008 compared to 20,000 in the US...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 02:27 PM

What do 'backup checks' amount to anyway? Do they involve checking on whether the purchaser and everyone in their household is completely trustworthy? Do they involve checking that their are adequate storage facilities where the weapons and amo will be kept locked up?   Or are they just does this guy have a criminal record and have they ever been sectioned?

A right to bear arms, however interpreted, is not the same as a right to sell arms or buy them without the most stringent requirements seen as appropriate.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bill D
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 01:14 PM

"... why do you think making more laws saying the same thing will do any good?

*I* do not. Laws saying something a bit different are required....such as.."NO sales at gun shows unless that show has a link to a National database of guns, owners and already completed background checks... and this linkin place and working, and monitored by police or other official not connected to the show...and no sales of military type weapons AT ALL! Including AR-15s, no matter what you want to CALL them."

See? There's a law we...at least more of us... can LIVE with.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 01:08 PM

Law enforcement has consistently been supportive of gun control... And why not??? They pull a guy over an have no idea what he's packin' or
if they are badly outmatched...

BTW, more cops were gunned down in the last 10 years than in the 50 years before that...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 12:37 PM

Really good question (from Eric Boehlert); "If there was a toy that killed 20 children in 1 day, there'd be no debate about banning it- why is there any hesitation over assault rifles?"


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 11:36 AM

My city is being sued by the NRA because they passed a law saying that if your gun is stolen, you must report that theft to the police.
NRA objects to that?!?!? Wouldn't that do some little bit to hinder trafficking in illegal guns.

The arguments that we already have laws on the books is thoroughly bogus. If the laws were adequate, we wouldn't have a mass shooting every other month would we?

Oh wait, your going to blame it on law enforcement aren't you...("we just need to enforce the laws blah blah blah).

How does law enforcement feel about the adequcy of current laws? Anyone...?


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: beardedbruce
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 11:18 AM

Maybe we should pass a law making it illegal to steal guns....

Or better yet, make it illegal to shoot PEOPLE.

THAT will solve the problem: Once the law is made, there will be no more shootings.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,999
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 10:57 AM

There's that, Charmion.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Charmion
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 10:52 AM

All it takes to "launder" a legal, documented gun into an illegal, undocumented gun is one theft or robbery, plus transportation to another jurisdiction.

No soap required.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,999
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 10:48 AM

John, John, John . . .


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 10:42 AM

Laundered guns 9? I guess that's what to do, if you want a clean shot.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,999
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 10:24 AM

The real question then is where do illegal guns come from. If they were ever legal to begin with how come the paper trail is so hard to determine? At some point they are laundered in order to become black market weapons, no?


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: beardedbruce
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 10:03 AM

"As for online sales there is no way these can ever ensure an adequate level of proof.
"


The online sales can only be FROM an FFL TO an FFL- the FFL puts his license on the line when he fils out the paperwork on the end customer. The FFL is responsible for the checks, and many states require confirmation by the police as well. Records are kept, and subject to government inspection at any time.


Many here are making demands for new laws that are ALREADY in place. If they have not stopped gun crimes, why do you think making more laws saying the same thing will do any good????


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 10:01 AM

It's called "background checks"... Problem is that the data base is so out-dated that it is by in large ineffectual...

Then thrown in the gun show loophole and why even have the laws on the books...

BTW, the Republican Party has blocked every effort by Obama to allow the appointment of a head of ATF (Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms)... But that's just a sidebar here...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 09:52 AM

How can a bloke selling guns over the counter have any way of knowing that someone buying the gun is 'of sound mental state'.

The presumption ought to be that they are not unless there is solid proof that they are. And that is not an easy thing to prove for any of us. Just the fact they might never have been sectioned is nowhere near good enough. You'd need references from guaranteed sources at the very least.

As for online sales there is no way these can ever ensure an adequate level of proof.

It should be the same level of proof as there would be to allow someone to adopt a child.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 09:47 AM

Sorry, McG, but I don't have a clue who wrongman, songwronger or whom ever is... Lotta folks who have the most right winged views to spew hide behind stupid names so they don't have to stand behind their posting...

B~


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