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BS: Shooting tragedies and guns

punkfolkrocker 31 Jul 19 - 01:40 PM
Backwoodsman 31 Jul 19 - 01:31 PM
punkfolkrocker 31 Jul 19 - 01:26 PM
punkfolkrocker 31 Jul 19 - 01:19 PM
Jim Carroll 31 Jul 19 - 01:19 PM
beardedbruce 31 Jul 19 - 01:10 PM
beardedbruce 31 Jul 19 - 01:06 PM
punkfolkrocker 31 Jul 19 - 01:03 PM
Jim Carroll 31 Jul 19 - 12:36 PM
Backwoodsman 31 Jul 19 - 12:18 PM
punkfolkrocker 31 Jul 19 - 12:18 PM
beardedbruce 31 Jul 19 - 11:59 AM
punkfolkrocker 31 Jul 19 - 11:24 AM
Backwoodsman 31 Jul 19 - 11:16 AM
Mrrzy 31 Jul 19 - 11:00 AM
SPB-Cooperator 31 Jul 19 - 04:47 AM
Jim Carroll 30 Jul 19 - 12:48 PM
Backwoodsman 30 Jul 19 - 12:12 PM
Mrrzy 30 Jul 19 - 10:46 AM
Backwoodsman 30 Jul 19 - 04:21 AM
Jim Carroll 30 Jul 19 - 03:43 AM
Backwoodsman 30 Jul 19 - 03:38 AM
Mrrzy 29 Jul 19 - 10:33 PM
beardedbruce 29 Jul 19 - 07:06 PM
beardedbruce 29 Jul 19 - 07:02 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 29 Jul 19 - 04:45 PM
Jack Campin 29 Jul 19 - 04:40 PM
punkfolkrocker 29 Jul 19 - 01:50 PM
beardedbruce 29 Jul 19 - 01:39 PM
Backwoodsman 29 Jul 19 - 12:05 PM
punkfolkrocker 29 Jul 19 - 11:42 AM
Mrrzy 29 Jul 19 - 11:40 AM
Stilly River Sage 29 Jul 19 - 11:34 AM
beardedbruce 29 Jul 19 - 11:31 AM
beardedbruce 29 Jul 19 - 11:30 AM
SPB-Cooperator 29 Jul 19 - 09:22 AM
Mossback 29 Jul 19 - 09:12 AM
SPB-Cooperator 29 Jul 19 - 08:51 AM
Donuel 24 May 16 - 12:25 AM
Greg F. 23 May 16 - 12:34 PM
Donuel 22 May 16 - 06:19 PM
Jack Campin 22 May 16 - 10:43 AM
McGrath of Harlow 28 Mar 13 - 08:39 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 28 Mar 13 - 08:34 AM
Backwoodsman 28 Mar 13 - 02:53 AM
McGrath of Harlow 27 Mar 13 - 08:08 PM
Bobert 27 Mar 13 - 08:37 AM
Backwoodsman 27 Mar 13 - 08:18 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 27 Mar 13 - 07:25 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 27 Mar 13 - 06:11 AM
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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 31 Jul 19 - 01:40 PM

We could guess, cynical as it may be, that USA Govt relies on the self culling and murderous stupity of it's citizens,
to contain population growth...???


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 31 Jul 19 - 01:31 PM

OK, let’s look at the numbers again...

”Mortality
All homicides
Number of deaths: 19,510
Deaths per 100,000 population: 6.0
Firearm homicides
Number of deaths: 14,542

Deaths per 100,000 population: 4.5


Now compare....

UK - total shooting deaths: 31 (deaths per 100,000 population: 0.048)
Australia - total shooting deaths: 238 (deaths per 100,000 population: 0.95)

What is the big difference between U.K./Australia vs. US? As you apparently don’t have the intellect to understand, or are so indoctrinated by NRA and bullet-head horse-shit, let me tell you -

The U.K. and Australia have strong, rigidly enforced gun-laws, and severe penalties for carrying a firearm when in the commission of another crime. To be granted a licence to possess a firearm in the U.K., a person has to go through rigorous police-checks which are periodically re-checked, and has to prove need for that firearm. A very limited number of people can demonstrate that need because there are severe restrictions on what constitutes ‘need’. ‘Self-defence’ is not a legitimate ‘need’.

QED.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 31 Jul 19 - 01:26 PM

It is possible the USSR could win more Darwin Awards for stupid deaths per annum than the USA..
But I suspect it is a very close run competition...???


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 31 Jul 19 - 01:19 PM

so... guns, drugs, cars, bungee, parkour and freerunning, etc...

How many total USA deaths are considered avoidable mortality due to some variety of gross human stupidity...???


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Jul 19 - 01:19 PM

Whenever someone indulges in whataboutism if always leaves me with the impression that they are lost for an answer
We'll be talking about driving cars next
The statistics speak for themselves - America has a rapidly escalating gun problem which it needs to sort out - not make excuses for

SOME COMPARATIVE STATISTICS
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: beardedbruce
Date: 31 Jul 19 - 01:10 PM

And for those who wish to legalize drugs...

Mortality: Drug overdose/drug poisoning deaths
Deaths per 100,000 population: 21.7 (2017)
Drug overdose deaths involving any opioid per 100,000 population: 14.9 (2017)
Drug overdose deaths involving heroin per 100,000 population: 4.9 (2017)


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: beardedbruce
Date: 31 Jul 19 - 01:06 PM

From CDC


Mortality
All homicides
Number of deaths: 19,510
Deaths per 100,000 population: 6.0
Firearm homicides
Number of deaths: 14,542
Deaths per 100,000 population: 4.5

Mortality
All suicides
Number of deaths: 47,173
Deaths per 100,000 population: 14.5
Cause of death rank: 10
Firearm suicides
Number of deaths: 23,854
Deaths per 100,000 population: 7.3
Suffocation suicides
Number of deaths: 13,075
Deaths per 100,000 population: 4.0
Poisoning suicides
Number of deaths: 6,554
Deaths per 100,000 population: 2.0


Mortality
All injury deaths
Number of deaths: 243,039
Deaths per 100,000 population: 74.6
All poisoning deaths
Number of deaths: 75,354
Deaths per 100,000 population: 23.1
Motor vehicle traffic deaths
Number of deaths: 38,659
Deaths per 100,000 population: 11.9
All firearm deaths
Number of deaths: 39,773
Deaths per 100,000 population: 12.2


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 31 Jul 19 - 01:03 PM

"MOST of the shooting deaths are suicides, which the Left has been making legal wherever it has been able to.
So lets put the money into the euthanasia drug providers' pockets, right?
"


Well there you go then, a potential new initiative
to provide a legitimate social and health care reason for gun ownership.


Armed good samaritan angels of mercy assisting suicides for free,
or just travel expenses and cost of the bullet...


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Jul 19 - 12:36 PM

"Most murders are by illegal guns"
There are no statistics to back up that claim - only claims

REAL STATISICS
According to Amnesty, Easy access to firearms – whether legal or illegal – is one of the main drivers of gun violence.

MORE HORRIFIC FACTS
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 31 Jul 19 - 12:18 PM

it works very well indeed in the U.K. and Australia.

UK - 31 shooting deaths in 2017 (pop. 64 million)
Australia - 238 shooting deaths in 2016 (pop. 25 million)
USA - 39,773 shooting deaths in 2017 (pop. 326 million)

But none is so blind as he who will not see.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 31 Jul 19 - 12:18 PM

I'm that odd thing, a lefty who likes guns...
I have to make do with youtube videos on historic military weapons.
Of course I would jump at the chance to fire a real Thompson submachine gun at a safe and secure target facility...

65th birthday present idea.. if anyone likes me enough... start saving up for it...

What does perturb me is the sheer amount of propaganda from Americans on the internet,
so much of it in youtube viewers comments,
regarding the UK electing a far right government to repeal our gun laws,
allowing USA style free for all gun ownership for UK citizens...

We have too many right wing nutters slavering to arm up and form UK militias if that ever happens...


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: beardedbruce
Date: 31 Jul 19 - 11:59 AM

Most murders are by illegal guns ( those obtained illegally, or in the hands of those forbidden by law to have them).

I guess if passing a law against murder does not prevent murders, we must need to pass more laws against guns, right???

Just look at how well that works in California and Chicago.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 31 Jul 19 - 11:24 AM

A gun amnesty in the USA..
The Govt buying back weapons from private citizens...???

errrrmmmm.. well.. It may have worked to some extent in other more reasonable nations...


It seems to me that the least impossible partial solution would be to prevent new guns and ammo being manufactured
and sold in America...???
.. and blocking imports of new weapons for civilians...

USA Govt would need to spend billions buying up Gun industry and factories,
at terms favourable to convince current owners to sell up...

Then spend more billions converting the factories and workforce to other products
like perhaps consumer goods currently imported from China...


Nah.. can't see that happening...


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 31 Jul 19 - 11:16 AM

True. Putting a loaded gun in your mouth and pulling the trigger really is not a ‘cry for help’!


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Mrrzy
Date: 31 Jul 19 - 11:00 AM

Suicides, too. More attempts succeed with guns.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 31 Jul 19 - 04:47 AM

Two things emerge from stats that surprise me:

(1) Accidental gun deaths are less than 500, were popular believe is that this figure is much higher. Is this a myth propagated by NRA to justify their branding?
(2) Murders by what should be the only legitimate firearm owning - shotguns (eg for protecting livestock and protecting people from dangerous animals) is less than 300.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Jul 19 - 12:48 PM

THE ROOT OF ALL EVIL - US STYLE
Tackle this and you can begin to address the problem
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 30 Jul 19 - 12:12 PM

Not up to me, Mrrzy. I’m pleased to say I don’t live there.

But sooner or later, the problem the US has created for itself will have to be faced and dealt with. And I repeat, the answer to the problem of too many guns and too many unsuitable owners is not, and cannot be, ‘More Guns’, no matter what the NRA and small-dick gun-nuts say.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Mrrzy
Date: 30 Jul 19 - 10:46 AM

You gonna make'm?


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 30 Jul 19 - 04:21 AM

Having said that in my previous post, I fully understand that it would be an almost impossible task to take 400 million guns away from a nation of fearful, angry gun-owners. But at some point, they have to get it through their terrified heads that ‘More Guns’ is not, and cannot be, the answer to the problem of too many guns and too many unsuitable owners too ready to use them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Jul 19 - 03:43 AM

From what's happening in the US, it seems to me that the best method of control is that anybody who wishes to own one is automatically disqualified from doing so.


Here in the West of Ireland we are blessed with the presence of an American Journalist who HIT THE HEADLINES WAY BACK and, having been black-listed from several newspapers for her behaviour, disappeared from the scene for a while.
Some five years later, following an incident where a Traveller was found to be trespassing, the farmer, shot him, wounding him severely, beat him with a fence post and then, went indoors, reloaded, and executed the badly wounded man
The case was dismissed as it was deemed that the farmer was acting in self defence.
Mary Ellen Synon, in an interview on Kerry Radio, declared that "It was not just the right, but the duty of all rural property owners to carry arms to protect themselves against such intrusions.
JIm Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 30 Jul 19 - 03:38 AM

”Nobody disputes (I don't think) tjat more people are killed annually with knives than guns.”

Well I dispute it, and so do the statistics! Guns are overwhelmingly the most common means of committing murder in the USA.

In the UK in 2017, there were 31 shooting deaths in a population of c. 64 million. In the US, there were 12,128 in a population of c. 326 million.

In the UK, we aren’t allowed to possess handguns or assault-type rifles. In the US, it’s “Ma-a-ah Right, aa-a-awdained ba-a-ah Aa-a-awl-ma-a-ahty Ga-a-ad in the 2nd Amendment!”, or some such horse-shit.

It really isn’t difficult to do the maths and understand the correlation.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Mrrzy
Date: 29 Jul 19 - 10:33 PM

Nobody disputes (I don't think) tjat more people are killed annually with knives than guns. But with a knife one person at one time can't kill anywhere nearly as many peple as one person with a gun, especially an assault rifle. And the correct use of a knife is usually cooking or eating, while the correct use of an assault rifle is killing large numbers of people at one time.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: beardedbruce
Date: 29 Jul 19 - 07:06 PM

The Giffords Law Center to Prevent Gun Violence ranks California first in the nation for having the strongest gun laws.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: beardedbruce
Date: 29 Jul 19 - 07:02 PM

California has every gun control the Democrats are pushing at the federal level.

California has confiscatory red flag laws, universal background checks, an “assault weapons” ban, a ten-day waiting period on gun purchases, a requirement that would-be gun buyers first secure a firearm safety certificate from the state, a limit on the number of guns a person may purchase in a month, a minimum purchase age of 21 years for long guns and handguns, a “good cause” requirement for concealed carry permit issuance, and numerous ammunition controls. Moreover, the Gilroy Garlic Festival was a gun-free zone.

Does it matter that the majority of the left has been pushing that laws one does not agree with are optional? Or that the truth is, 4 times as many people are killed each year by knives than "Assault Rifles", more people are killed with blunt objects than "Assault Rifles", but people don't want to have that conversation.

It's time that we we begin to discuss the mental health aspect behind all this much more. It's time that we go back to teach our children to value human life so that this never happens again. You can't tell me that the violence surrounding video games, and movies has not had a negative impact on our society. It absolutely has and it's time we make the changes needed on that front.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 29 Jul 19 - 04:45 PM

My poem, from WalkaboutsVerse, "Monopoly on Weaponry"


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Jack Campin
Date: 29 Jul 19 - 04:40 PM

We could grant Trump that it might be difficult to get guns out of the hands of angry people.

But it would not be difficult at all to refrain from getting them angry enough to start shooting.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 29 Jul 19 - 01:50 PM

See.. in the UK we can get worked up angry with other folks
without reaching for our guns...

btw.. I actually like guns, would collect them if I had the £££$$,
.. and I'd hope I'd be a sensible owner...
[we already have one legal owned shotgun death in the close family...]

However, I accept why UK law of the land says no,
and agree to abide by it...


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: beardedbruce
Date: 29 Jul 19 - 01:39 PM

SRS,

YOU STATE:
Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Stilly River Sage - PM
Date: 29 Jul 19 - 11:34 AM

Calling names means you have no useful answer, BB.
--------------------------------------------------

But I notice your ignoring

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Mossback - PM
Date: 29 Jul 19 - 09:12 AM

Do take it up with President Trumpshit, the Republican Party and the NRA, eh?
-----------------------------------------------------------------


Which I was replying to.


You seem very selective in whom you apply your rules to.


Will you tell Mossback HE has no useful answer, or just select out those you disagree with to make meaningless comments about?


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Jul 19 - 12:05 PM

Those 400 million guns in civilian hands over there are doing a great job of making people’s dicks feel bigger, but they didn’t help the ones shot at the GarlicFest, did they? And they didn’t put the shooter off doing what he set out to do, did they?


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 29 Jul 19 - 11:42 AM

Sadly, these days most folks reaction to this news report
may most likely be...

" oh.. another mass shooting in America...
But wait.. a what... ???? a GARLIC FESTIVAL ..!!!???
WTF.. a garlic festival...??? eh...???
Did you hear that just now on the news.. yes.. that's right.. a garlic festival..
oh.. yeah, there was a bit of a mass shooting at it..
BUT wtf is a garlic festival...??? Americans are so weird...
"


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Mrrzy
Date: 29 Jul 19 - 11:40 AM

Hey, we (the populace) voted for the other person. Fat lot of good that did us.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 29 Jul 19 - 11:34 AM

Calling names means you have no useful answer, BB.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: beardedbruce
Date: 29 Jul 19 - 11:31 AM

PRC- Peoples Republic of California


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: beardedbruce
Date: 29 Jul 19 - 11:30 AM

Mossback,

" U.S. citizens are IN FAVOR of reasonable gun control."

As opposed to the unreasonably strict and ineffective gun control PRESENTLY in place in the PRC?


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 29 Jul 19 - 09:22 AM

It is down to you decent Americans to do something about it. All I can do is observe and comment, which I will do very time something like this happens.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Mossback
Date: 29 Jul 19 - 09:12 AM

Do take it up with President Trumpshit, the Republican Party and the NRA, eh?

The majority of U.S. citizens are IN FAVOR of reasonable gun control.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 29 Jul 19 - 08:51 AM

Well, looks like you've done it again - Gilroy Garlic festival. I bet you are all proud that you have gun laws that allow ownership of weapons that are used to murder 6 year-old kids.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Donuel
Date: 24 May 16 - 12:25 AM

Woo Hoo Fed Ex just dropped off my internet purchase of the gold plated TRUMP AR 15 with Trump on the stock and no safety. (its really a Brown and Wesson) A nice detail is the word trump inside the scope with the U serving as the cross hairs.

They also sell a sideways gold plated 9mm for blacks.(buy 11 and get 1 free)


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 May 16 - 12:34 PM

Gun owners are twice as likely to shoot themselves dead as they are to kill anyone else

Well, then its way past time for them to get busy & go for it. A self-correcting problem?


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Donuel
Date: 22 May 16 - 06:19 PM

The pride, the fun, the autonomic adrenaline, the psychological warm blanket effect, the camaraderie, the might makes right and the feeling of power like having the last word that demands respect,
are all too much for the part time or avid gun owner to sacrifice.

Yes you who brags of gun prowess and collection, you are too chicken shit to trade your personal fun for the lives of little children, cops and more likely than not your own family members.

You are an intentionally blind selfish person.

you are evil unknown to your self


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Jack Campin
Date: 22 May 16 - 10:43 AM

Two stories I read on the same day.

The US healthcare system may be brutally feudal but they've got equal access to euthanasia:

http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/americas/80219738/elderly-american-man-says-he-killed-his-wife-because-they-couldnt-afford-medicine

And most "shooting tragedies" are not homicides. Gun owners are twice as likely to shoot themselves dead as they are to kill anyone else:

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/05/160519220528.htm


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 08:39 AM

It hasn't always been difficult or illegal to own guns in the UK. At the time the US Constitution was adopted the law was essentially the same back here, and for well over a century. But aside from sporting toffs and farmers with shotguns, very few people were too. Interested in having guns, and there was no significant opposition as the law giot toughened up.

After the Dunblane massacre the popular demand for a heavy clampdown of all handguns was of course irresistible.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 08:34 AM

Illegal guns will always be a problem, but a simple syatem could be used to keep track of all legal guns.

1. Close the gun show loophole and have proper background checks on every purchaser, with a waiting period of say 48 hours, during which the gun can be registered and test fired.

2. With a database containing the ballistic signature of every licensed gun, at least the innocent could be eliminated from enquiries, and with backgrounds checked before the gun is released, obvious nutjobs could be weeded out.

This would significantly reduce both the work of detection and the capture of anyone who kills with a legal gun.

3. Compulsory gunsafe for all licensed weapons, making it more difficult for them to be stolen.

Of all of these, I think the ballistics record the most useful.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 02:53 AM

You're right, of course, McG, but I think the lack of desire (which I referred to in my earlier post) derives, to a great extent, from the fact that it's very difficult to be allowed to own a gun (impossible nowadays to legally own handguns or automatics) and so there's no mindset that gun ownership is either desirable or 'normal'. In fact, I'd suggest that most British people would regard anyone who had the kind of gun-mania that many Americans seem to suffer from, as having a serious psychological defect.

Making guns illegal, of itself, won't cure anything in a nation that's so obsessed with firearm-ownership,but it would have to be accompanied by a programme of removing existing guns - I guess by a firearms amnesty with financial compensation initially, but eventually by the imposition of heavy penalties for non-surrender of guns. The registered weapons should be relatively easy to track down, the big problem would be with guns held illegally (including illegally-held weapons in the hands of individuals who have no criminal record).

But the real answer is to achieve a change to the mindset of Americans that you're only safe if you have a gun. It's a symptom of a national paranoia, and you, I and every other British 'Catter know that it's simply not true.

And, good idea though it is, requiring attendance of gun-owners at regular training as part of this ludicrous, non-existent 'militia' would have them howling like banshees and running for the hills!


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 08:08 PM

'The general public in the UK are not permitted to own firearms. '

That is true - but in itself it isn't the really significant difference, which is that the general public in the UK have no desire to own firearms. Unfortunately that doesn't appear to be the case for a very sizeable proportion of the US public, and while that is true, making them illegal wouldn't solve the problem.

That means that it would be more sensible for them to go ahead with stuff like cutting out crazy weapons like assault rifles, and blocking loophole like sales at gun fairs etc.

And an idea that came up earlier in this thread would make sense too - follow up on the US Constitution gun amendment, and oblige gun owners to take part in regular training in a 'well regulated militia', as a prerequisite for owning a gun.   Their patriotic duty.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bobert
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 08:37 AM

The NRA keeps telling everyone who will listen that crime rates are falling... What they don't want to talk about is that every year 100,000 Americans are shot with guns... No, not all die but that stat seems to hold up year after year after year...

In the words of the late Waylon Jennings, "We need a change"...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 08:18 AM

Thanks For that, Don.

Unfortunately, with a few exceptions such as Bill and Bobert, it will go straight over the heads of the majority of our American friends, with their unfeasibly large gonads, unbelievably small penises, and amazing abilities of selective deafness and illiteracy,

None are so blind as they who will not see.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 07:25 AM

Posted too soon.

All murder cases here remain open and cold case squads are in the process of mopping up the minute number which are still unsolved using the latest DNA technology.

The chances of getting away with murder here are significantly less than in most other countries, including the USA.

From 2000 to date, 30 murders remain unsolved in the UK (Northern Ireland troubles killings excluded, though that wouldn't be a large number post good friday agreement in Dec 1998).

Each year 6,000 killers get away with murder in America. That's according to a study of FBI records. The study found the rate of solved homicides since 1980 nationwide is 63%.

Those are the total murders of all types.

When you look at gun murders, the information is given as percentage cleared, without actual numbers.

Victim Killed by Handgun ........ 68

Victim Killed by Shotgun ........ 84

Victim Killed by Rifle .......... 86

Victim Killed by Other Guns ..... 60

By any standards, this is not a high clearance rate.

In the course of researching this I came acoss an article which expresses what we have been saying very succinctly. I think it's worth posting here, without further comment.

""The New Yorker

December 16, 2012
Guns and the Limits of Shame
Posted by Jon Lee Anderson

What does it take for a society to be sickened by its own behavior and to change its attitudes? That can be asked about questions of power and political repression—and also about distinctive national pathologies. When did a majority of South African Boers realize that Apartheid was reprehensible? How about whites in the American South? When will the Japanese force their whalers to stop, finally realizing that their persistence has caused widespread international revulsion and opprobrium? When will the British realize that public drunkenness—a practice now internationally associated with them as a nation—is something to be embarrassed about? When will we Americans realize that our society is an unacceptably violent one, that this is how the rest of the world sees us, and that much of that violence is associated with guns? Will it be the massacre at Sandy Hook Elementary School? Where is our threshold for self-awareness?

A few years ago, the British found their own threshold— with guns—after an event not unlike the heartbreaking tragedy in Newtown, Connecticut. On March 13, 1995, in the small Scottish town of Dunblane, a forty-three-year-old man, Thomas Hamilton walked into a primary school with four handguns and opened fire, methodically killing sixteen children and one adult teacher before killing himself. The unprecedented massacre of children led, within two years, to legislation that imposed a total ban on the private ownership of handguns in the United Kingdom. Today, no one in the United Kingdom can privately own a handgun or a semiautomatic weapon. (There are exceptions made for some historic and antique weapons, and the ban does not encompass Northern Ireland.) There was not much hand wringing or heated debate over this legislation. It was discussed, and enacted, with overwhelming public support, in response to the mood of national shame and grief over the killings.

There is still violence in Britain. In recent years, there has been a disquieting upsurge of violence amongst teen-agers in large British cities. Much of it is gang related, and almost all of it involves knives. Knives are not hard to obtain, but kill far fewer people than guns do. After the movie-theatre shooting in Aurora, Colorado, the Guardian did the math, comparing gun homicides in the U.S. to England and Wales in one year: 9,146 to forty-one. Even taking into account the difference in population, the rates of gun homicide per a hundred thousand people are 2.97 versus .07.

In China, where private gun ownership is also banned, but where social alienation is clearly becoming a larger problem, there have been a distressing number of recent attacks by deranged knife-wielding men on schoolchildren. On Friday, in fact, as Evan Osnos writes, in an incident with uncanny similarities to the Newtown massacre, a young man walked into the Chenpeng Village Primary School near the city of Xinyang, south of Beijing, and attacked the schoolchildren with a knife as they arrived at school. Twenty-two children were injured before the assailant, said to be a thirty-four-year-old man, was subdued and arrested by police—but there were no deaths. If he had been using a gun, the likelihood is that most of those children would now be dead.

A heated debate on new gun-control legislation has been sparked off by the Sandy Hook massacre. But if past patterns are anything to go by, it's unlikely that anything will change yet in the United States. What will it require for a majority of Americans to realize that they have a national problem that needs to be urgently addressed? We have lost four Presidents to gunmen in our short history as a nation, and very nearly lost several more. Last year, Arizona Congresswoman Gabrielle Gifford's promising political career was cut short by a gunman who shot her in the head, killed six others and wounded thirteen more. Gifford spends her days now in therapy attempting to recover basic abilities like speech and eyesight, both of which were severely affected by her wounds.

But Americans seem to take the shooting of their politicians in stride. Would even another, much larger school massacre bring about change? If the numbers are on a truly epic scale—an American scale—perhaps enough people will finally say "enough." If someone murdered a hundred schoolchildren in a single day with guns, would a majority of Americans agree to true restrictions on them? What is our national threshold for shame?

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 06:11 AM

""Americans have been shooting each other for a long, long, time, Backwoodsman, they're not going to stop on based the British example. If there even is a British example--there is some feeling that murders there are under-reported because you don't have a comprehensive, centralized reporting system. I wouldn't know if that was accurate or not, but there is an old adage that runs, "If you're going to count them, first you've got to find them." ""

Don't know where you got that Stim, but it is pure undiluted bullshit. The Police National Computer is comprehensive nationwide.

The murder identification and detection rate in the UK is extremely effectiv and few murders remain unsolved.


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