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BS: Shooting tragedies and guns

GUEST,999 26 Dec 12 - 02:41 PM
beardedbruce 26 Dec 12 - 02:22 PM
pdq 26 Dec 12 - 02:14 PM
beardedbruce 26 Dec 12 - 02:14 PM
beardedbruce 26 Dec 12 - 02:08 PM
Ebbie 26 Dec 12 - 01:47 PM
pdq 26 Dec 12 - 12:26 PM
beardedbruce 26 Dec 12 - 12:09 PM
GUEST,999 26 Dec 12 - 12:04 PM
Greg F. 26 Dec 12 - 12:00 PM
bobad 26 Dec 12 - 11:53 AM
pdq 26 Dec 12 - 11:13 AM
beardedbruce 26 Dec 12 - 11:07 AM
Bobert 26 Dec 12 - 11:03 AM
GUEST,999 26 Dec 12 - 10:37 AM
pdq 26 Dec 12 - 10:34 AM
beardedbruce 26 Dec 12 - 10:24 AM
GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz 24 Dec 12 - 04:19 PM
gnu 24 Dec 12 - 03:52 PM
GUEST,kendall 24 Dec 12 - 03:49 PM
Ebbie 24 Dec 12 - 03:28 PM
Greg F. 24 Dec 12 - 01:16 PM
GUEST,kendall 24 Dec 12 - 11:38 AM
Greg F. 24 Dec 12 - 11:20 AM
GUEST,kendall 24 Dec 12 - 10:03 AM
catspaw49 24 Dec 12 - 09:40 AM
Bobert 24 Dec 12 - 09:37 AM
Greg F. 24 Dec 12 - 09:37 AM
kendall 24 Dec 12 - 07:03 AM
theleveller 24 Dec 12 - 04:04 AM
Ron Davies 23 Dec 12 - 11:34 PM
number 6 23 Dec 12 - 11:15 PM
Ron Davies 23 Dec 12 - 10:56 PM
Ron Davies 23 Dec 12 - 10:51 PM
Bill D 23 Dec 12 - 08:47 PM
Bobert 23 Dec 12 - 08:21 PM
Greg F. 23 Dec 12 - 08:12 PM
kendall 23 Dec 12 - 07:48 PM
gnu 23 Dec 12 - 07:17 PM
kendall 23 Dec 12 - 07:13 PM
Greg F. 23 Dec 12 - 06:38 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 23 Dec 12 - 06:26 PM
Bobert 23 Dec 12 - 06:21 PM
Greg F. 23 Dec 12 - 06:03 PM
Greg F. 23 Dec 12 - 06:01 PM
kendall 23 Dec 12 - 04:58 PM
Bee-dubya-ell 23 Dec 12 - 04:57 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 23 Dec 12 - 04:40 PM
Ron Davies 23 Dec 12 - 04:30 PM
GUEST,999 23 Dec 12 - 04:07 PM
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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,999
Date: 26 Dec 12 - 02:41 PM

BB, part of the problem is TV, video game and movie stuff that has glorified people with semi and automatic weapons. I agree that there are mental health issues that need to be addressed, along with laws that are enforced whereby the use of any gun in the commission of a crime is a mandatory 20 year/no parole sentence. If such crime results in death, the sentence is life, no parole, period!

People who think banning semi autos or assault rifles is a quick fix best think again. It took about 50 years to get gun crazy; it'll take that long to undo it. Saying that laws don't work means you have some bad judges and maybe more than a few bad cops.

I am aware that people would be crazy to relinquish guns they own. But maybe it's time to stop making more.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: beardedbruce
Date: 26 Dec 12 - 02:22 PM

sorry





It is simple to make a one- shot pistol or shotgun, or a pipe bomb, or explosive, or instrument string garrote to kill people. The problem is to TEACH PEOPLE NOT TO KILL EACH OTHER. Yet No one here will even address that, stating that the removal of guns ( even though not possible, as seen by the murder rates in Washington DC ( whens guns were forbidden), NYC ( strictest gun laws, and the place to go to get ANY weapon you want) Chicago ( note the number of gun crimes IN SPITE of some of the harshest gun laws)
) IS THE SOLUTION THAT WILL WORK.

Please note that 9-11 did not involve ANY guns at all. How many died then? Can we outlaw all knives? Broken glass? Flat pieces of metal sharpened on cement? Mixing household chemicals to produce WW 1 chemical weapons?


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: pdq
Date: 26 Dec 12 - 02:14 PM

23,000 US schools have armed security personel now.

Columbine had them.

Columbine also took place while the "assault weapons" ban was still in place.

Nobody is proposing anything that has proven to work.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: beardedbruce
Date: 26 Dec 12 - 02:14 PM

Ebbie,

Does that address your questions?

I DO NOT CLAIM to have an answer- but I can look at the obvious and know that the means that the Left has tried for many years has made the situation worse ( more gun violence and crimes, with more laws restricting gun ownership and less punishment and personnel responsibility.
Maybe we need to look at the causes, rather than pass "feel-good" laws that do not work and do NOT deal with mental health issues, alienation, ignorance , and lack of "buy-in" to society and civilization.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: beardedbruce
Date: 26 Dec 12 - 02:08 PM

"What are your ideas on this? If you truly think that taking semi-automatic and assault off the legal market will not make a difference, what do you suggest? "

1. ASSAULT RIFLES HAVER BEEN ILLEGAL SINCE 1934. Has THAT made a difference?

However, take a look at the crime rate in Switzerland. Not bad for a country with FULLY AUTOMATIC military weapons in nearly every home.



2. I can fire all the rounds from my 11 shot (target) revolver on target faster than I can fire a 1911 Colt semi-automatic (7 rounds) downrange ( and only the first shot would hit the target!)

As for taking them off the market, do you know how many are out there? If EVERY legal gun was confiscated, and ONLY police had them, the criminals would be able to get all the guns they would want- by killing police if no other way.

It is simple to make a one- shot pistol or shotgun, or a pipe bomb, or explosive, or instrument string garrote to kill people. The problem is to TEACH PEOPLE NOT TO KILL EACH OTHER. Yet No one here will even address that, stating that the removal of guns ( even though not possible, as seen by the murder rates in Washington DC ( whens guns were forbidden), NYC ( strictest gun laws, and the place to go to get ANY weapon you want) Chicago ( note the number of gun crimes IN SPITE of some of the harshest gun laws)

The places with the strictest gun laws have the MOST gun violence crimes, and the LEAST harsh punishments. Any thoughts about ENFORCING the laws WE HAVE NOW, and making people responsible for their own actions?

It DOES work to disarm law abiding citizens, though. IF that is the intent, so be it- but think back to the South in the 1930s to 1960s- DO YOU WANT TO DISARM everyone NOT IN AUTHORITY?

Are you willing to give up other Constitutional rights as well, when SOMEONE decides you would be safer without them? How about when a conservative is in power, and uses these SAME arguments ( "Even one life saved is worth giving up rights") to outlaw abortion ( where EVERY fetus dies)? What right has the woman to kill that life???




"Do you think LaPierre's suggestion of arming teachers and other authority figures is a good one? Is that the picture you have of education?"

It is a better idea than passing a law that does not work. NOT what I want to see in education: I would rather see responsible gun training in later grades, to promote gun safety, and can see a reason for SOME armed presence in schools.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Ebbie
Date: 26 Dec 12 - 01:47 PM

This is a serious questions for BeardedBruce and pdq and all others who seem at a loss for where to start:

What are your ideas on this? If you truly think that taking semi-automatic and assault off the legal market will not make a difference, what do you suggest?

Do you think LaPierre's suggestion of arming teachers and other authority figures is a good one? Is that the picture you have of education?

Please address this.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: pdq
Date: 26 Dec 12 - 12:26 PM

If people want to discuss the facts, they should read the 1968 gun control act first:

                                                                                          National Firearms Act (1968)


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: beardedbruce
Date: 26 Dec 12 - 12:09 PM

What, Greggie, like the federal law making it a crime for felons to possess firearms (1968, I think), or the extreme Federal limitations on automatic weapons since 1934 ?

Since these have been asked for here, it is obvious that the laws do NOT produce the effects that people want.

Perhaps we need to arrest anyone who calls black Democats "dumb ni**ers" since they have demonstrated, by their hate speech, a tendency toward hate crimes that are already on the books.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,999
Date: 26 Dec 12 - 12:04 PM

"So, how much of Obama's trillion dollar "stimulus bill" was spent in helping support existing gun laws? Immigration laws? Gang violence abatement laws?"

It was $173.48, but that ain't the topic.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Greg F.
Date: 26 Dec 12 - 12:00 PM

No, the point is, Beardie, that they're crap laws currently and they're not uniform across the country.

What we need is realistic, uniform legislation.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: bobad
Date: 26 Dec 12 - 11:53 AM

"The NRA is the enabler of death — paranoid, delusional and as venomous as a scorpion. With the weak-kneed acquiescence of our politicians, the National Rifle Association has turned the Second Amendment of the Constitution into a cruel and deadly hoax."

Bill Moyers


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: pdq
Date: 26 Dec 12 - 11:13 AM

If you are saying we should enforce the laws we already have, then this may be a breakthrough.

So, how much of Obama's trillion dollar "stimulus bill" was spent in helping support existing gun laws? Immigration laws? Gang violence abatement laws?


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: beardedbruce
Date: 26 Dec 12 - 11:07 AM

Bruce,

The point is that such a ban would have no real effect.

Fully automatic weapons are already effectively banned.

I can fire 11 rounds from my (target) revolver faster than I can fire 7 rounds from a 1911 Colt semi.

The crimes that everyone is commenting on WERE IN VIOLATION OF THE EXISTING LAWS.

Why does anyone think more laws will make a difference?

ANYONE can make a single-shot gun, and use it to obtain a weapon ( from a leaga source, such as a policeman, or a retired policeman) With more than 320 million known guns in the US, how effective would a ban be? Who would turn in the guns - the criminals who are already in violation of the law for possessing them?


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bobert
Date: 26 Dec 12 - 11:03 AM

Yeah, of course we should pass a law that says "Ex-cons should not own guns" but, ahhhhh, we already have that law... Problem is that it is a joke when the ex-con can walk into a gun show and buy whatever he wants...

This is lunacy on meth...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,999
Date: 26 Dec 12 - 10:37 AM

So why do people continue to ignore the elephant in the room? Ban all semi and fully automatic weapons. It doesn't stop the problem, but it sure does slow it down.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: pdq
Date: 26 Dec 12 - 10:34 AM

And the shooter at Virginia Tech was certified insane and was therefore not allowed to own a gun.

Laws didn't help in that case either.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: beardedbruce
Date: 26 Dec 12 - 10:24 AM

Ebbie,

As an ex-con, the shooter has been prohibited from ever possessing a firearm, as of the 1968 Gun Act.

Sure did a lot of good, right? Let's pass some more laws that do not deal with the problem.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz
Date: 24 Dec 12 - 04:19 PM

Christmas Eve....Time for a song....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AwNg4lHFj7I

Peace on Earth....


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: gnu
Date: 24 Dec 12 - 03:52 PM

Ebbie... beyond reality. SO sad.

So... once again... we have all the resources required here at Mudcat to get it going or to find out where to "join up" if it's already going.

Who's in charge?


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,kendall
Date: 24 Dec 12 - 03:49 PM

Newtown will bring many more kooks out of the woodwork.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Ebbie
Date: 24 Dec 12 - 03:28 PM

I swear, given today's shooting of firefighters, that the nuts out there are vying for the title of 'most shocking and senseless'. And this was no kid but a guy in his 60s.My heart bleeds.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Dec 12 - 01:16 PM

It's not my opinion we're talking about, Kendall - its reality vs. the delusions of the sorry folks you call the "gun nuts".

Their baseless delusions need to be identified as such, and not given the same weight as opinions based on facts.

Time to stop coddling the loonies.

Their fantasies and lies should be identified for what they are - not just "another opinion". Paranoid scizophrenics have their "opinions" too - doesn't mean those opinions are valid or reflect reality.

By the way, Devil can advocate for himself quite nicely without any outside help.

Best, and Merry Christmas,

Greg


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,kendall
Date: 24 Dec 12 - 11:38 AM

Ok, now give me some proof that your opinion is more valuable than any other. A degree in psychoanalysis will do.

Can't you see that I was playing Devil's advocate?


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Dec 12 - 11:20 AM

"Trying to bait you", Kendall - not my intent at all. There's opinion, and then there's fact and the two are not necessarily equivalent.

However, I will honor your implied request and desist from attempting to have a rational discussion with you.

Bye Bye.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,kendall
Date: 24 Dec 12 - 10:03 AM

Greg F I feel like you are trying to bait me and that is irritating.

My personal opinion is, these "Bubbas" were probably picked on as kids, never won a fist fight and probably have small peckers.They are also probably cowards, Ok? happy now? That's just MY opinion, nothing more.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: catspaw49
Date: 24 Dec 12 - 09:40 AM

Watched LaPierre on Meet the Press........kept repeating the phrase, "guns are a tool." Actually LaPierre is a tool. First a tool of the gun lobby and also a tool as in dick. It is fair to say Wayne is a complete and total tool.

The GOP is lining up solidly against any real regulation changes. How nice. I'm sure they have good reasons. I figure what might be required here for a guy with an AR to break into the Republican caucus or the next GOP convention and shoot a hundred rounds around the place.


Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bobert
Date: 24 Dec 12 - 09:37 AM

These people, for the most part, have inferiority complexes and think that if they have a bigger gun then everyone else that that will level the field for them... Real men don't need AR15s... Only washrag wusses...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Dec 12 - 09:37 AM

I'm not qualified to label them paranoid, crazy or stupid;

perhaps not as a clinician, but I would think your background in law enforcement etc. would enable you to make a pretty accurate evaluation.


they have a different opinion from mine, thats all.

"That's All"?? Hardly.

With all due respect (and I mean that sincerely), that's a ridiculous statement. Stalin had a "different opinion" as well, as did Tim McVeigh. Past time to stop excusing ignorance, stupidity, and just plain bloody-mindedness & get on with the job.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: kendall
Date: 24 Dec 12 - 07:03 AM

Greg F I can't speak for others generally, but in this case, these gun nuts are afraid the government is going to take their guns and leave them vulnerable to something that they can't even explain.
I'm not qualified to label them paranoid, crazy or stupid; they have a different opinion from mine, thats all.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: theleveller
Date: 24 Dec 12 - 04:04 AM

"I personally am not afraid of my government, but I know plenty of people who are."

Even more reason to demand change. If the will is there, it can be done. In 1976, when I was a young man, I went to live in South Africa and I was appalled when I discovered what apartheid was all about. I got involved in anti-apartheid politics. The realists said: "What's the point? The government, along with the police and the army, has the country in an iron grip and the Afrikaanas will fight to the last man to keep their supremancy. Anyway, it's not your country so why bother?" After a couple of years I was forced to flee the country, leaving my job and most of my possessions. But things DID change. Lots of brave people both inside and outside the country made it happen. Many were imprisoned, tortured and killed but The Rainbow Nation became the reality. The status quo is not an inevitability - just go for it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Ron Davies
Date: 23 Dec 12 - 11:34 PM

Actually, having belatedly read the article in question--which I recommend everybody to do soon--the article makes clear this is old advertising and acknowledges lots of people (Americans implicitly included) might find this advertising macabre-- whether it's from the 30's,, 40s , 50s, or 60's..

It seems to be needlessly looking for trouble to pick a fight with Spiegel on the basis of the article--which in the main is quite accurate, including the assertion that many attitudes were shaped partly by this advertising--along with Disney's Davy Crockett and the general Western TV craze, which also happened in the 50's.   Does anybody deny this? It would pay us to get our facts straight, rather than just lashing out, though that is admittedly a favorite Mudcat pursuit.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: number 6
Date: 23 Dec 12 - 11:15 PM

Most of those ads are from the 50's and 60's.

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Ron Davies
Date: 23 Dec 12 - 10:56 PM

"1930's era advertising"


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Ron Davies
Date: 23 Dec 12 - 10:51 PM

"1930's-type advertising".   That's what you do when you're a really Left-leaning magazine.    Anybody to your Right is fair game, including distortion of current attitudes or smearing a whole country.    I daresay some Mudcatters might well be capable of attacking the US on exactly the same basis.

Having said that, I'm sure there are places in the US where a Winchester is still a very welcome Christmas present.

And I have to say I'm not against rifles anywhere near as much as against pistols, AK-47's etc.
I'd just like to see all the gun-owners show up for regular drill, to be part of the "well-regulated militia"--as the 2nd Amendment intended.

Now if the Spiegel headline had to do with delight of a young boy in getting a real Saturday Night Special for Christmas, we'd have more grounds for complaint.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bill D
Date: 23 Dec 12 - 08:47 PM

On "Meet the Press" David Gregory several times tried to get LaPierre to give a direct answer to questions about what **laws** he would suggest to deal with the current problems. What Gregory got, of course, was an evasive dance and prepared, repetitious talking points which changed the subject and pontificated.

I tend to think it's kinda good to have that line of BS put on TV at that kind of length for everyone to see. His base will still toe the line, but more & more folks are seeing his crap for what it is.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Dec 12 - 08:21 PM

We have suffered thru a 3 decade long PR assault on "government" by people who don't want laws and regulations to apply to them... Why??? Because these people are the cheaters, the polluters and the folks who make more $$$ if there isn't a strong government... Bottom line??? It all comes down to money...

It's no wonder that so many folks have fallen for the PR and Fox propaganda... It's all store bought PR and propaganda and it was worked just like the cheaters, polluters and crooks PR firms told them it would...

Money well spent...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 Dec 12 - 08:12 PM

I personally am not afraid of my government, but I know plenty of people who are.

Question is, Kendall WHY are they afraid of it, to what extent, are they having mental problems, or are they just ignorant?

I think that's all relevant.

I'm in the U.S. as well, and in the hirearchy of things I'm afraid of, the government doesn't even make the grade.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: kendall
Date: 23 Dec 12 - 07:48 PM

We can do it. That road is rough and rocky, but if enough of us band together and scare congress more than the NRA is scaring them it can be done. It's up to us and no one else.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: gnu
Date: 23 Dec 12 - 07:17 PM

So....

Where is the website?

Where is the petition?

Where are the balls?

USA... U Stand Alone. Pony up. If you do, we (many) will stand with with you for good gun laws in your country. Don't say you cannot do it. That is simply un-American... innit?


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: kendall
Date: 23 Dec 12 - 07:13 PM

Greg F, Don asked who made THEM paranoid. Americans have been suspicious of a standing army from day one.
I use the word "WE" because I am an American. I personally am not afraid of my government, but I know plenty of people who are.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 Dec 12 - 06:38 PM

Wayne LaPierre thinking? Now there's a concept that's impossible to grasp. Bullshitting, yes. Bloviating, yes. Pontificating, yes. but thinking? please.

But Wayne ain't the problem. Its those 4 million NRA members with cold, dead brains.

Question is, when will the rest of us tell that 1.4% of the U.S. population to shove it?

Talk about the tail waving the dog......


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 23 Dec 12 - 06:26 PM

Simple Bobz!

There is no connection between his brain cell (singular) and his mouth.

If brains were dynamite, he wouldn't have enough to lift his hat in the air.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Dec 12 - 06:21 PM

Saw Wayne LaPierre on "Meet the Press" this morning and this got not only doubled down but tripled down on his belief that gun violence has nothing to do with guns in any manner... I just don't get his thinking at all...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 Dec 12 - 06:03 PM

Kendall, who's this "we" you're talking about? And what is it that they don't trust their government to do or to not do? And which of Don's posts does your comment relate to?


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 Dec 12 - 06:01 PM

Nice one, Bruce! Dreier's right on target (as it were)- way past time to stand up to the NRA bullshit.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: kendall
Date: 23 Dec 12 - 04:58 PM

Simple, Don; we don't trust our government.
I saw a bumper sticker that said, "We are making enemies faster than we can kill them."


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 23 Dec 12 - 04:57 PM

My point in my post about Der Spiegel is that they're reaching back to 1930s era advertising, which reflected 1930s social attitudes, and attempting to hold the present-day US accountable for them. That approach is as invalid as an American publication trying to hold present-day Germany accountable for the Hitler Youth Movement. The Germans, more than anyone else, should know that the excesses of the past belong in the past.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 23 Dec 12 - 04:40 PM

About a year or eighteen months ago somebody posted here that he intended to cycle across the USA, IIRC from West to East across the southern states.

Almost the first advice he received was that it would be dangerous to knock on a door to ask to fill up his water bottle, as he would risk being shot dead as a trespasser.

What does that say about a country whose citizens are in the main among the most friendly in the Western World?

Who made them so paranoid that all strangers are looked on with suspicion?

The NRA maybe, in its ceaseless quest to sell more guns for the arms manufacturers?

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Ron Davies
Date: 23 Dec 12 - 04:30 PM

Also. BWL, Der Spiegel is pretty far left--about as far left as Mudcat, probably.   Similar attitude toward Israel, very environmentalist, not nationalist in the least. Militarism is anathema.

Germany in general had a huge revulsion to Hitlerism and anything remotely conncected.

1945 is often called das Jahre Null---Year Zero--i.e.   we are starting completely over.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,999
Date: 23 Dec 12 - 04:07 PM

Peter Dreier about LaPierre/NRA


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