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BS: Shooting tragedies and guns

McGrath of Harlow 25 Mar 13 - 09:45 PM
Bobert 25 Mar 13 - 04:44 PM
Bill D 25 Mar 13 - 04:36 PM
GUEST,Stim 25 Mar 13 - 03:26 PM
McGrath of Harlow 25 Mar 13 - 02:46 PM
GUEST,Stim 25 Mar 13 - 02:32 PM
McGrath of Harlow 25 Mar 13 - 01:56 PM
number 6 25 Mar 13 - 12:58 PM
GUEST,Stim 25 Mar 13 - 12:26 PM
Bill D 24 Mar 13 - 07:30 PM
GUEST,Stim 24 Mar 13 - 06:32 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 24 Mar 13 - 04:34 PM
McGrath of Harlow 24 Mar 13 - 12:31 PM
Bill D 24 Mar 13 - 10:58 AM
McGrath of Harlow 24 Mar 13 - 10:55 AM
GUEST,Stim 24 Mar 13 - 10:00 AM
Bobert 24 Mar 13 - 09:37 AM
GUEST,Stim 24 Mar 13 - 09:23 AM
gnu 23 Mar 13 - 06:26 PM
McGrath of Harlow 23 Mar 13 - 04:34 PM
GUEST,Stim 23 Mar 13 - 04:24 PM
McGrath of Harlow 23 Mar 13 - 02:02 PM
Bobert 23 Mar 13 - 01:33 PM
GUEST,Stim 23 Mar 13 - 12:08 PM
Bobert 23 Mar 13 - 10:04 AM
Bill D 23 Mar 13 - 09:41 AM
McGrath of Harlow 23 Mar 13 - 09:24 AM
gnu 22 Mar 13 - 06:43 PM
bobad 22 Mar 13 - 05:12 PM
GUEST,Stim 22 Mar 13 - 04:09 PM
Bill D 22 Mar 13 - 10:59 AM
bobad 22 Mar 13 - 09:39 AM
Bill D 03 Feb 13 - 09:42 PM
GUEST,999 03 Feb 13 - 07:22 PM
Greg F. 03 Feb 13 - 05:53 PM
gnu 03 Feb 13 - 05:51 PM
GUEST,999 03 Feb 13 - 04:41 PM
Bobert 03 Feb 13 - 04:08 PM
Bill D 03 Feb 13 - 03:34 PM
GUEST,999 03 Feb 13 - 03:24 PM
Bill D 03 Feb 13 - 02:56 PM
GUEST,999 03 Feb 13 - 10:14 AM
GUEST 03 Feb 13 - 10:13 AM
Greg F. 03 Feb 13 - 09:58 AM
SPB-Cooperator 03 Feb 13 - 09:32 AM
GUEST,999 03 Feb 13 - 08:53 AM
bobad 03 Feb 13 - 07:32 AM
GUEST,Stim 01 Feb 13 - 11:41 PM
Donuel 01 Feb 13 - 05:27 PM
GUEST,Lighter 01 Feb 13 - 04:26 PM
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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 09:45 PM

You could be right, and violence might rise in time, Stim. But the murder rate for London was the lowest for 42 years in 2012, six of them involving guns, so you also could be wrong.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bobert
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 04:44 PM

New York Mayor Michael Bloomburg is going to spend $12M of his personal money to run ads in districts where representatives live to try to get some pressure on these folks...

Wayne LaPierre, the head of the NRA, is blasting Bloomburg saying he's trying to buy gun control???

Buy it with $12M???

Hahahahaha...

The NRA has $400M in the bank...

$400M > $12M...

LaPierre needs a math refresher...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bill D
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 04:36 PM

I'm sure that, as demographics and society change over time, the UK and other countries will have increasing issues with violence. There are always those who will disregard gun laws and acquire illegal weapons, whether for planned criminal activities, internal disputes among immigrants or just to make money selling them.
Even if there IS some increase, the strict laws and fewer guns will keep the UK relatively much safer & saner than what we must deal with in the US.

Sadly, I can't see any easy way for us to get out of this situation-- there are simply too many guns already in private hands.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 03:26 PM

I don't see any lessons there.

I have been reading that violent crime is increasing on your islands, and have also read about a person called Gary George who murdered and tortured one Andrew Nall, as another of your citizens, Christine Holleran, stood by. One is inclined to think that you are on the same path, though perhaps you don't realize it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 02:46 PM

?

Gun deaths in USA in 2012, 33,000
Gun deaths in UK in 2012, 51...


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 02:32 PM

Curious to know, McGrath, what you think the details of that warning might be. Enquiring minds, and all...


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 01:56 PM

Trying to see a silver lining, the American example is probably an excellent warning against other countries following it. Rather like the American system of health provision.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: number 6
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 12:58 PM

Another very tragic shooting

children shooting babies

and it never ends

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 12:26 PM

It has been suggested, sardonically(I think), that the gun mfgs actually encourage the random shootings in order to boost sales. At least one rampage killer claimed to have done it because he believed Obama wanted to take his guns away, and that is one of the standard NRA lines. And so it goes...


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bill D
Date: 24 Mar 13 - 07:30 PM

And... the NRA, and Wayne LaPierre, are not the top of the ladder. The gun manufacturers and importers, who wish to remain as invisible as possible, drive the agenda.
The gun manufacturers have a problem: unlike someone who sells soap or beans, their products don't wear out, and don't 'need' replenishing often. They depend on new customers and multiple sales to former customers. The very idea of restrictions like background checks and limits on type and capacity of weapons scares them.... it simply means far fewer sales!

Right now they are making money hand-over-fist as those who desire guns are stocking up....just in case.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 24 Mar 13 - 06:32 PM

I've given up posting links, McGrath, but the NRA is run from the top down, and politics are extremely right wing. They use the huge amount of money and power at their disposal to make people represent their wishes, not the other way around. If you google some thing like, "Who funds the NRA?" or a similarly provacative question, you will find many interesting things.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 24 Mar 13 - 04:34 PM

""So the minority who make sure that the NRA is extreme are more powerful than the majority who don't? How does it come about the tail wags the dog?""

Because the tail has all the mon-n-n-ney, and the dog isn't in any position to watch how it's spent, facing in the wrong direction.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Mar 13 - 12:31 PM

So if most gun owners would like moderate restrictions, why don't they make the NRA represent their wishes?


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bill D
Date: 24 Mar 13 - 10:58 AM

More 'reasons' why " ...a majority of citizens, and even of gun owners who don't like the NRA lobby..." can't get something done.

1)That majority is only about being unhappy with the NRA. Many of those are also majorities in various conservative causes, and can't bring themselves to vote for candidates they dislike on other issues.

2)Many of those who dislike the NRA at the moment are also gun owners who don't want any restrictions on their own guns.... they just favor 'moderate' restrictions, while the NRA is trying to avoid any restrictions.

3)As Stim indicates, money, in the form of advertising and campaign contributions, flows to candidates who support the wider range of conservative causes. Religion, abortion, 'states rights', etc., are often linked with gun laws in much propaganda.... the NRA knows how to piggy-back their agenda on other causes.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Mar 13 - 10:55 AM

Presumably the money which is wielded by the gun lobby comes from people who spend a lot on guns. The gun firms then proceed to spend a fraction of the profit they make from gun sales on finncing lobbying against gun laws. Since there are more people who don't spend a lot of guns, that means that in principle there should be a lot more money available to outspend the gun lobby.

Presumably the people who see preventing sensible gun laws as their priority (I mean the kind of things that gnu favours) must be a great deal more dedicated to their cause than the ones who see preventing school massacres as a higher priority.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 24 Mar 13 - 10:00 AM

"any more"? Did we ever. Bobert?


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bobert
Date: 24 Mar 13 - 09:37 AM

McG,

We don't have a representative form of government any more... We have an oligarchy...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 24 Mar 13 - 09:23 AM

Money and power are in the hands of the minority, McGrath. For the time being, there is neither money or politcal power for the other side. There is always a rise in public sentiment when something terrible occurs, but no one has succeeded in mobilizing those sentiments into the kind of action that you think is needed, though people continue to try.

As for you, Gnu--talk is cheap, and Mudcat is mostly talk. Change isn't either easy or certain...


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: gnu
Date: 23 Mar 13 - 06:26 PM

Well, gosh. "I still don't get it, if there really is a majority of citizens, and even of gun owners who don't like the NRA lobby, why do they lie down and let an embarrassing minority walk all over them?"

Ya kinda would wonder. I have said on a LOT of gun threads that Mudcat has the people with the brains and the resources to get the job done. Seriously... NO prpb! That was met with, "Ya can't fight em."

Wish I was a Yank for a while and I could muster what is required to get the job done if I could rely on the human resources within Mudcat... except, of course, for those that ween about poor gun laws and then excuse themselves that standing up to be counted is useless and sit back down on their asses.

Odd... I get shit upon for my defense of responsible gun oownership and also for my endorsement of good gun laws. No wonder I seldom open gun threads any more. The gun nuts and the anti gun nuts are fuckin nuts. Seriously... none of you nuts can figure out such a simple problem and get the job done because yer nuts. I have PROOF... people are being shoy in the streets! What's so hard to understand?

Have fun with it. I'll check back someday if I hear a shot ring out near one of you. Hope you don't make the headlines as an innocent bystander while being a guilty bystander in the war on the illegal use of guns.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Mar 13 - 04:34 PM

I still don't get it, if there really is a majority of citizens, and even of gun owners who don't like the NRA lobby, why do they lie down and let an embarrassing minority walk all over them?


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 23 Mar 13 - 04:24 PM

Well, I said "gun owners" not NRA members. Most gun owners are not NRA members. Even so, I have read that a lot of NRA members don't like the direction the organization has taken.

And, actually, a lot of membership associations, both professional and amateur, end up being dominated by corporate and business interests. Associations typically try to attract support for their objectives from corporations and other enterprises that provide goods and services for their members. Support being another word for money. They give their "sponsors" access to their leadership (including their lobbyists), they give them seats on their plenaries, the give them space at their conferences and meetings, and they even give memberships to their employees. It isn't long before the "sponsors" start calling the shots. It's the famous Golden Rule--"he who has the gold makes the rules."

And, just in case you didn't realize it, when people talk about Washington being dominated by "special interest groups", they mean the associations.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Mar 13 - 02:02 PM

So the minority who make sure that the NRA is extreme are more powerful than the majority who don't? How does it come about the tail wags the dog? It doesn't seem to happen with other hobby enthusiasts. You don't get CAMRA campaigning for the right to drink and drive, for example.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Mar 13 - 01:33 PM

I've seen pictures since the Sandy Hook of gun shops where the only thing left on the shelves is the dust... Not one gun left... Not one bullet left...

The NRA and gun shop owners love murder... And if it's kids getting murdered, it's even better for them...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 23 Mar 13 - 12:08 PM

I like the picture of Wayne LaPierre in the Guardian a lot, McGrath.

The thing that you probably don't understand, and most people don't, is that the NRA lobbying is purely and simply about money.

Most Americans don't either have or want guns. Most of the ones who have them don't have problems with gun control legislation(though you wouldn't know it). However, the gun manufacturers makes a ton of money marketing assault rifles, and even more on the ammo.
They are the ones behind the NRA efforts, not the NRA membership. They pump millions of dollars into to organization to support it's efforts.

The gun manufacturers look at the large percentage of Americans who don't have guns as an untapped market, and they recognize that fear sells guns. To draw a fairly tasteless parallel, every time there's a killing, they make a killing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Mar 13 - 10:04 AM

There are two major problems with having a saner Congress, Bill...

The worst gerrymandering since maybe forever by the Republicans to hold the House of Representatives no matter how badly they are beaten by the popular vote as they were in the last election...

The Senate rules that give more power to the minority than the majority...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bill D
Date: 23 Mar 13 - 09:41 AM

Our only real hope is to someday elect a congress with enough members who are more dedicated to principle and reason than to the financial support of the NRA and related groups.

I'm not holding my breath, as I don't look good in blue.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Mar 13 - 09:24 AM

Gun control fight enters round two after NRA victory on assault weapons

Very strange people. Maybe a very strange people?


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: gnu
Date: 22 Mar 13 - 06:43 PM

Indeed. But not about gun control for me. I don't care to explin. It'll just get shit upon.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: bobad
Date: 22 Mar 13 - 05:12 PM

Yes Stim, the photo of John Lennon's blood stained eyeglasses do make a powerful statement.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 22 Mar 13 - 04:09 PM

I was not prepared to see that photo, bobad. A very, very, powerful image.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bill D
Date: 22 Mar 13 - 10:59 AM

Population of USA in 1980-    227,224,681
Population of USA in Jul 2012-313,914,040         

wow... they're gaining anyway! Maybe we need more guns with large magazines!

(he said with tongue firmly buried in cheek, lest anyone take it seriously)

A more important statistic would be the many more millions whose lives have been affected by the losses embedded in that 1,057,000... and counting.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: bobad
Date: 22 Mar 13 - 09:39 AM

Over 1,057,000 people have been killed by guns in the U.S.A. since John Lennon was shot and killed on December8, 1980.

Yoko Ono


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bill D
Date: 03 Feb 13 - 09:42 PM

Yup... talkin' blues would work jes' fine... (as Pogo would say)


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,999
Date: 03 Feb 13 - 07:22 PM

Thank you Bill and gnu. I'll give it a shot--heh heh. Talkin' blues. Need a day or two.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Greg F.
Date: 03 Feb 13 - 05:53 PM

NRA's "enemy list"

Almost makes ya nostalgic for old tricky Dick Nixon, don't it??


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: gnu
Date: 03 Feb 13 - 05:51 PM

From: GUEST,999 - PM
Date: 03 Feb 13 - 03:24 PM

I love it! Man... you got a song there... flesh it out. Brings a bunch of images and idea's into my head. No shit... if you don't work on it, I'll be sad.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,999
Date: 03 Feb 13 - 04:41 PM

The stats ain't quite that pure, Bobert. I think there might be more than a bit of equine effluence mixed in there.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bobert
Date: 03 Feb 13 - 04:08 PM

Hey, I know a big name to put with it...

..Bruce "The Badman" Murdock!!!

As for the NRA and this round... They'll probably win the round but will take some shots and we'll more than likely get tighter background checks and the gun show loophole plugged up but equally important funding restored to the CDC for it study on the effects of gun violence...

I know the NRA loves to brag about _____________ (pick any ridiculously high number) are saved by all these guns and, of course, they have a shit load of highly paid bloggers that do nothing 40 hours a week but clog up every search engine extolling those stats as if they are real but...

... those stats are pure USDA 100% Choice Bullshit...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bill D
Date: 03 Feb 13 - 03:34 PM

Catchy, 9... needs a chorus and a big name to put it on Yooooo-Tooob


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,999
Date: 03 Feb 13 - 03:24 PM

I'm writing to the NRA
For the work they've done to keep us free
They'll stand behind us any day
When automatics start to spray
But there's one thing I'd like to see
And that's them standing in front of me


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bill D
Date: 03 Feb 13 - 02:56 PM

Dear NRA...

And you brag about list all those prominent, exemplary citizens and organizations as problems and enemies to be watched with concern and fought against?
Where is your list of sane, reasonable people whose advice and counsel we should be following?


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,999
Date: 03 Feb 13 - 10:14 AM

That was me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Feb 13 - 10:13 AM

It may provide a hit list but half the fuckers can't read. Evens up the odds.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Greg F.
Date: 03 Feb 13 - 09:58 AM

Also provides a 'hit list' for pro-gun extremists.

You gotta problem wid dat???


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 03 Feb 13 - 09:32 AM

Also provides a 'hit list' for pro-gun extremists. Is there a comparable list of organisations, corporation and prominent individuals who take an anti gun control standpoint?


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,999
Date: 03 Feb 13 - 08:53 AM

bobad, the NRA put a helluva lotta work into compiling that list. Lets us know who out friends are. I think I'll send them a thank you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: bobad
Date: 03 Feb 13 - 07:32 AM

The NRA's "enemy list" Mudcat didn't make it.....c'mon guys, we gotta do better.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 01 Feb 13 - 11:41 PM

Since you make up a lot of stuff, Donuel, I was a bit dubious about your shooting deaths/traffic fatalities claim--However Bloomberg had an article in December that said that the two would converge in 2013.

It is true that traffic fatalities have taken a huge drop over the past few years-from around 43,000 in 2005 to 32,000--and, as we have discussed before, shooting related deaths have stayed constant.

However, most of the "shooting deaths" are suicides, and by most, I mean by about 2 to 1, and, given that murder and suicide are very,very different, it is a bit deceptive to lump them together. For almost every purpose other than "the gun debate" they are dealt with as separate issues.

At any rate, the decline in traffic deaths is most likely related to the shrinking economy, because, what with the price of gas being what it is, most of us drive a lot less theses days. If the economy perks up, we're likely to hit the roads again, and those numbers will pop back up, because if there is anything we Americans love more than guns, it's cars.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Donuel
Date: 01 Feb 13 - 05:27 PM

"The NRA is arguing (among many, many other things) that the decline in gun homicides over the years proves that no new measures are needed"
Sorry       but that nra premise is false, untrue and a lie.
This year we have more shooting deaths than auto accident fatalities.
The rates are up, in case you haven't noticed.

a republican congressman who carries water for the nra has made it illegal for our national institutes of health to copile and research gun death data that could ever be used to encourage gun control.
This law is not water tight but it discourages scientists from doing work in the gun area since it would mean the grant money would be challenged right off the bat.

The DAT&firearms is likewise bound by similar barbed haywire laws that prevents even basic knowledge and meaningful statistics to be gathered, sice it could be used to encourage gun control.

machavellian ain't it?


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 01 Feb 13 - 04:26 PM

According to the NRA, a half million new dues-paying members have signed up since Newtown.

True or false? Sane or mad?


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