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BS: Shooting tragedies and guns

GUEST,olddude 21 Dec 12 - 06:10 PM
theleveller 21 Dec 12 - 05:24 PM
number 6 21 Dec 12 - 05:20 PM
Bobert 21 Dec 12 - 05:01 PM
number 6 21 Dec 12 - 04:42 PM
Bobert 21 Dec 12 - 04:31 PM
kendall 21 Dec 12 - 04:16 PM
number 6 21 Dec 12 - 04:09 PM
GUEST,SINS 21 Dec 12 - 04:03 PM
Bill D 21 Dec 12 - 03:43 PM
number 6 21 Dec 12 - 03:39 PM
number 6 21 Dec 12 - 03:37 PM
Bobert 21 Dec 12 - 03:26 PM
bobad 21 Dec 12 - 03:24 PM
GUEST,Stim 21 Dec 12 - 03:22 PM
number 6 21 Dec 12 - 03:12 PM
Greg F. 21 Dec 12 - 02:33 PM
Greg F. 21 Dec 12 - 02:31 PM
theleveller 21 Dec 12 - 02:27 PM
number 6 21 Dec 12 - 02:05 PM
pdq 21 Dec 12 - 01:46 PM
theleveller 21 Dec 12 - 01:40 PM
kendall 21 Dec 12 - 01:35 PM
number 6 21 Dec 12 - 01:29 PM
bobad 21 Dec 12 - 01:21 PM
Bill D 21 Dec 12 - 01:10 PM
GUEST 21 Dec 12 - 01:07 PM
Greg F. 21 Dec 12 - 12:56 PM
Stu 21 Dec 12 - 12:54 PM
Stu 21 Dec 12 - 12:47 PM
Bill D 21 Dec 12 - 12:42 PM
GUEST,SINSULL 21 Dec 12 - 12:21 PM
kendall 21 Dec 12 - 12:03 PM
Megan L 21 Dec 12 - 11:59 AM
johncharles 21 Dec 12 - 11:34 AM
olddude 21 Dec 12 - 11:16 AM
saulgoldie 21 Dec 12 - 10:22 AM
Edthefolkie 21 Dec 12 - 09:54 AM
Bobert 21 Dec 12 - 09:28 AM
John P 21 Dec 12 - 09:24 AM
McGrath of Harlow 21 Dec 12 - 08:18 AM
beardedbruce 21 Dec 12 - 08:16 AM
gnu 20 Dec 12 - 09:13 PM
Bobert 20 Dec 12 - 09:11 PM
GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz 20 Dec 12 - 08:55 PM
Jack the Sailor 20 Dec 12 - 08:50 PM
GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz 20 Dec 12 - 08:48 PM
GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz 20 Dec 12 - 08:43 PM
dick greenhaus 20 Dec 12 - 01:55 PM
Greg F. 20 Dec 12 - 01:43 PM
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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 21 Dec 12 - 06:10 PM

sugarfoot
my friend, I am ex cop same as Kendall, we indeed know when and how and when not to engage. Like I said if you decide to carry one of them things you better get cop training thats all I meant


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: theleveller
Date: 21 Dec 12 - 05:24 PM

"It sounds so easy; pass a law.Now tell us how, with so many of our law givers in the pockets of the NRA. If it was that easy we would have done it years ago."

Well, thank god Martin Luther King didn't share your apathy. Are you saying that Americans love guns more than they love their children? Sounds like it to me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: number 6
Date: 21 Dec 12 - 05:20 PM

I disagree Bobert .... aggressive behaviour has been a way of life in Amerika long before some of you Big Five came to be ... in fact many of your Big Five ( 1, 3, 4 and 5 ) can be found in many countries today including my own country Canada ... and I certainly would not say Canada is an aggressive society.


biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Dec 12 - 05:01 PM

If we chip away at the Big Five that will have a major impact on our aggressiveness which is more a byproduct than a root cause...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: number 6
Date: 21 Dec 12 - 04:42 PM

I'll add a point 6 to you list Bobert ... and I think it is the most important point in the list ... and this is Amerikans are a very aggressive society, it is the Amerikan way.

Add guns or any weaponary to an aggressive society and what is the result?

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Dec 12 - 04:31 PM

Like I have said, there is no "silver bullet" that is going to fix everything... We have many forces working here...

1. Yes, we have a miserably failed mental health system to relies on too much out-patient (cheaper) treatment and not enough inpatient treatment... And, to make things worse, states having been cutting budgets from mental health year after year after year...

2. We have way too many extremely dangerous guns in out genral population... It is estimated that there are 3,000,000 military styled assault rifles... And to complicate that the NRA used fear tactics to scare people into thinking they need these weapons because if Obama doesn't take them away from you then the UN will...

3. We have a dysfunctional government with way too many people in Congress who were elected by tin-foil-nation and think it is there job to try to destroy the entire US government, sans the military...
And complicating any efforts to bring sanity into the equation we have a licensed purveyor of BIG LIE propaganda in Fox News...

4. We have way too much violence in our movies and games and so we have an entire generation who is so desensitized to violence that they have no real comprehension between the games and real life... And to complicate that their parents aren't much better...

5. We have become a nihilistic, me-me society where it's get yours at all costs and the only time we show compassion is if we think that it might be captured by a device and go viral... To complicate this is that people no longer develop the social skills that the future of the nation depends... Who the fuck cares what Suzie Creamcheeze is wearing... You don't know her... She lives 3000 miles away and you'll never know her... Talk to the kid next to you...

These are "Bobert's Big Five"...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: kendall
Date: 21 Dec 12 - 04:16 PM

It sounds so easy; pass a law.Now tell us how, with so many of our law givers in the pockets of the NRA. If it was that easy we would have done it years ago.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: number 6
Date: 21 Dec 12 - 04:09 PM

Bill D. .... "in that it WAS an individual known to have issues"

Does not every premeditated violent act against one human to another have issues .... these mass murders don't just snap.

Are Americans as a culture more aggressive when it comes to dealing with issues? ... that is a question, just a thought?

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,SINS
Date: 21 Dec 12 - 04:03 PM

You're right Bobert. NYC's gun laws are functioning beautifully.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bill D
Date: 21 Dec 12 - 03:43 PM

As much as I have read, I'll confess the Bath incident had escaped me.

As I read the details, I feel it has only a peripheral relation to the current issues... in that it WAS an individual known to have issues and who concerned folks. The use of carefully planted explosives is a rare path for nuts to take... but of course, explosives and their components should also be restricted and controlled as well as possible.


Read here about the Texas gun store guy... and remember, he is LEGION in Texas....


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: number 6
Date: 21 Dec 12 - 03:39 PM

whooops .... sorry Bobert and Bobad ... that line is a quote from something Bobad found .... regardless by opinions above on the NRA stands as it is.

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: number 6
Date: 21 Dec 12 - 03:37 PM

" The NRA is killing our children! You've got to stop the violence and violence begins with the NRA! "

Bobert ..... cool down a bit. The violence cannot be blamed solely on the NRA .... the NRA cannot be the scapegoat for the all the despicable violence in Amerika. The NRA is a result of a very sick society.

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Dec 12 - 03:26 PM

First of all, this is for SINS:

New York has the toughest gun laws of any major city in the country and *lowest* per capita murder rate of any major city in the country...

As for the NRA's press conference today???

What would you expect out of them... Their idea is an expensive recipe for disaster... First, who are these people going to be??? Cop wantabees who would otherwise be driving around shopping centers in little SUVs with a decal that reads "Security"??? Uh huh, I see...
Second, di it ever occur to anyone that by putting a cop-wantabee in the school it is going to add an extra layers of jollies for the wackos to pull off the incident??? No, didn't think anyone thought of that...

As for the hand wringers who say, "Geeze, we can't possibly round up all the assault weapons or big clips, can we?"... Well, no... We can't... But we can round up or give private licenses out for 99% of them... Here's how... Everyone is given 6 months to bring their assault weapons or big clips in for a "buy back" or for spacial permits... After 6 months it's an automatic 5 years in prison for possession of them... It can't be done if we say "It can't be done" but it can be done if was say "We can do this"...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: bobad
Date: 21 Dec 12 - 03:24 PM

These words from a protester at LaPierre's press conference - listen up America:

"NRA stop killing our children!" the protester shouted as a security guard dragged him from the room. "It's the NRA and the assault weapons that are killing our children! Do not arm teachers! We've got to end the violence! We've got to stop the killing! Stop the killing in our schools, stop the killing in our homes, stop the killing in our streets! The NRA is killing our children! You've got to stop the violence and violence begins with the NRA! They are perpetrators of the crimes that are taking place in our schools and on our streets!"

'NRA has blood on its hands!'


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 21 Dec 12 - 03:22 PM

Thanks for mentioning the Bath School Disaster, biLL. I grew up there, and, though it was never spoken of, it left a dark shadow over our world. In just the last few years, it has begun to be remembered again. In a lot of ways, it is eerily current.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: number 6
Date: 21 Dec 12 - 03:12 PM

Greg F. .... it does ... read Bill D.'s first post to this thread.

as to it being related to the current situations, or conditions as they exist today ... just think about it for a bit .... or, you can forget about it and debate on and on about the same old things.

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Dec 12 - 02:33 PM

Bill, the Bath School Disaster of 85 years ago has fuck-all to do with the current discussion, the current situation, or conditions as they exist today.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Dec 12 - 02:31 PM

Of course we have a choice, PeeDee - stop being the usual purveyor of idiotic nonsensicalities.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: theleveller
Date: 21 Dec 12 - 02:27 PM

"Tell us if we really have a choice."

Of course you do - ban private ownership of guns and start to enforce it. Is there really an alternative?


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: number 6
Date: 21 Dec 12 - 02:05 PM

Why not have armed guards everywhere with German shepherds, metal detectors not only in the schools but in malls, hospitals, sports arenas ... armed checkpoints stratigically situated within urban areas, and even out in the countryside. Have every (legal) citizen of all ages issued flak jackets.

Welcome to the armed fortress of Amerika !

Amerika, which I am convinced is now a country with way too many lunatics.

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: pdq
Date: 21 Dec 12 - 01:46 PM

"Armed guards in schools, bulletproof backpacks, armed teachers - is that really how you want to live?"

Some folks here should visit Los Angeles and report back.

Tell us if we really have a choice.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: theleveller
Date: 21 Dec 12 - 01:40 PM

Armed guards in schools, bulletproof backpacks, armed teachers - is that really how you want to live? Is that the way you want your children to be brought up - in a constant atmosphere of fear? If so, then as a nation you are insane.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: kendall
Date: 21 Dec 12 - 01:35 PM

Arming everyone? OMG.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: number 6
Date: 21 Dec 12 - 01:29 PM

I can't believe this tragedy has not been raised here in this thread...

    Bath School disaster

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: bobad
Date: 21 Dec 12 - 01:21 PM

They (you, all Americans, whoever's in charge)should start treating these people, LaPierre, Gohmert etc like the mentally ill persons that they are and prescribe treatment - I would suggest a few ECT sessions to begin with.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bill D
Date: 21 Dec 12 - 01:10 PM

And by the way... LaPierre did not mention whether he advocates armed guards in every mall... on every level. Or at every high school football game... or on every school bus taking kids home..

And... who besides me has been watching CNN each evening where Piers Morgan has taken this whole debate to new heights? (Including interviews with various members of the far-right gun advocates!)

Last night he had a gun shop owner from Texas on (with a 10 27 gallon hat and some ideas that go WAY beyond LaPierre!
   Idea: arm teachers! Yep...that's right. Piers Morgan kept his face mostly straight as he asked how this would be done...where would teachers keep these guns..in a drawer? Why, no... ON THEIR PERSON says this guy. Properly holstered and secured, of course.... and naturally, they would be well-trained!

My mind recoils at the idea of my 4th grade teacher, Miss Isgrigg, with a Glock strapped to her hip....

This idea-filled gun shop owner agrees with the thoughtful Texas legislator Louis Gohmert about the idea that EVERYONE should be able to go armed EVERYWHERE! Church...store...political rallies...
wait... I seem to remember...

ah, well


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Dec 12 - 01:07 PM

"Habits are haRD TO BREAK. Ask any heroin freak. Or, a smoker."

Or gun nut.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Dec 12 - 12:56 PM

LaPierre's always been a fuckwit, Jack. And he doesn't have the excuse of Charlton Heston's cold, dead brain.

But the problem remains the cold, dead brains of the LaPierre acolytes.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Stu
Date: 21 Dec 12 - 12:54 PM

"Those of us like Kendall, myself and others just protect other people the best we can."

Olddude, I have the greatest of respect for you and some of the other guys on this forum, but I have to say this is a fantasy. You might stop an attack on yourself (a US mate of mine did stop a mugger who came up to him in a car park by sticking a gun in his face), but would you really engage in a shoot-out in a crowded place, and be sure you wouldn't hurt an innocent? Might you not be encouraging the insane personal arms race that's happening in your country?

From here, it looks likes lunacy. When I'm in the states, it looks like lunacy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Stu
Date: 21 Dec 12 - 12:47 PM

Wow.

Just heard LaPierre's statement on Newtown. One of the most disrespectful, disingenuous and downright nasty statements in the wake of this disaster it could have been possible to make. He's actually advocating having arms in schools for Christ's sake - this is pure insanity. Kids should not be taught in any building with weapons in it, they should be as far removed from violence as is possible. He is teaching your children into people whose only response to violence is more violence, like some fundamentalist Taliban lunatic. Guns in schools? My god, is there really such a lack of will and imagination it's come to that. Do you understand what this sounds like to the rest of the world (I know, you don't care, no foreigner's gonna tell the USA what to do yadda yadda yadda)?

These are your children for fucks sake! Wake up!

Supporting gun ownership (apart from hunting, sports shooting and serving law enforcement officers) means you are happy to allow this nightmare to continue. You are condemning parents to the grief of loosing a child again in the future, and if your conscience allows for that then you are beyond help. There is no protection against guns apart from giving them up and making them socially unacceptable, end of. Too many guns out there already? Make them the socially unacceptable because they are designed to kill people.

Unfuckingbelieveable.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bill D
Date: 21 Dec 12 - 12:42 PM

here it is.. the NRAs 'solution'

Entirely predictable and close to useless. If you were a determined, deranged wannabe killer and you knew an armed guard was waiting, at a school, where would you switch your planned attack to? A school bus? A school yard at recess? A local playground? Maybe even just a church, where the praying could begin immediately....

Why, with the NRA guiding the safeguards, the next guy might only manage to shoot 10-12!

Yes, I am cynical...and pissed... can you tell?


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,SINSULL
Date: 21 Dec 12 - 12:21 PM

New York City has and has always had some of the toughest control laws in the country. You see how well that is working out.

I personally believe that nothing can be done to control guns intelligently until reasonable gun owners cut their ties to the NRA and lead the way. The NRA cannot afford to lose their money or their numbers.
SINS, who would prefer that you all stop the childish name calling.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: kendall
Date: 21 Dec 12 - 12:03 PM

Habits are haRD TO BREAK. Ask any heroin freak. Or, a smoker.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Megan L
Date: 21 Dec 12 - 11:59 AM

There is no such thing as an old gunslinger. Your eyesight is not what it was, your hand is not as steady, your reaction time is not so fast and your perception is not as accurate. It does not matter what anyone did in their former life things decline as you get older.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: johncharles
Date: 21 Dec 12 - 11:34 AM

The NRA response is entirely predictable; armed guards in schools. God save America.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: olddude
Date: 21 Dec 12 - 11:16 AM

You see the problem my friends is this. There are so many weapons out there now that it is impossible to remove them. You would have to go door to door and that isn't possible either as we have search laws. So what is the best we can do. fix the loopholes. That is about it .. sorry to say but they ain't going away .. Law abiding people would turn them in if a law was passed but no law would ever be passed. However countries like Mexico, that doesn't work. The streets run red from gun violence in a country that No one is allowed any weapon. Unless society changes, people go back to caring about others and looking after your neighbors and raising our kids right. Nothing will change. Fixing the loopholes will help, but sadly it will continue. A cililian carrying a firearm legally is a defacto cop. So unless a person is really qualified and knows that, then they should not. Those of us like Kendall, myself and others just protect other people the best we can. It all sucks but it is what it is


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: saulgoldie
Date: 21 Dec 12 - 10:22 AM

We do not know for sure if certain mental conditions might cause an individual to shoot someone. We do not know that taking care of mental conditions better than we do would "fix" the problem. We do not know whether or not violent movies, games, or physical or mental abuse will directly lead to an individual shooting someone. We can form correlations and speculate. But correlations, even strong correlations do not prove causality. But they bear further investigation, that is for sure. Then, what we do with the results is subject to prejudice, preconceptions, and politics.

What we DO know, is that if there is no gun present, then there can be no gun-related death.

Saul


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Edthefolkie
Date: 21 Dec 12 - 09:54 AM

I hesitate, as a mere Brit with no personal armament and no desire to have any, to enter the bear pit, BUT.....

The US used to be looked up to by the world.

The US sent men to the Moon.

The US is still the most powerful nation on Earth.

The US has many more church going supposed Christians (remember "Do good to them that despise you"?)than most other countries.

And some of the people on this forum are telling me that the US cannot and must not reduce the chances of another disturbed person slaughtering his mother, five other adults, and TWENTY primary school children?

I'm sorry guys, but some of you need a reality check. You CAN stop this if you want to. Guns were invented to kill, guns do kill.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Dec 12 - 09:28 AM

Yes, the sad truth is that because of the number of guns in ordinary folks homes that domestic murder rates are up with a direct correlation between the the numbers...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: John P
Date: 21 Dec 12 - 09:24 AM

statistically the people most likely to kill you are your nearest and dearest

Yes, this is why I find the gunners' oft-repeated statement that "we have plenty of laws, but criminals don't pay attention to them" to be fatuous and dangerous. If it were illegal to obtain a gun, someone would have to choose to become a criminal before they pull the trigger, and we might have a chance of stopping them. The way it is now, most people who shoot others don't become criminals until they open fire. It's too late at that point. Also, I think that most people would not choose to become criminals in order to own a gun.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Dec 12 - 08:18 AM

Well, obviously anyone who kills you is liable to be committing a crime. But most of the time they are going to be law-abiding in general, or at least conviction-free.

As has often been pointed out, statisticlly the people most likely to kill you are your nearest and dearest (and vice versa). Even here in England, though it is less likely to involve guns.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: beardedbruce
Date: 21 Dec 12 - 08:16 AM

" the law prohibiting "assault weapon" was allowed to lapse by W."

Since it used meaningless definitions, it should have lapsed. As stated, ASSALT RIFLES are already illegal for all practical purposes.


"And the law was flaweed by a failure to adequately characterize just wat an "assault weapon" was. "

TRUE- and NO effort has been made by those seeking to reinstate it to define WHAT they are banning.



"A more practicable approach would be to maintain a list of specific weapons which would be prohibited, and have each new weapon introduced by any manufacturer categorized. There aren't that many."

See 1934 Gun act, and Relic and Curios list.



"As far as gun ontrol vs. Psychological approsches--they'tr not mutually exclusive. Both should be investigated."

TRUE, but they will pass meaningless laws to support political agendas, and leave the problem unresolved. That has been the consistent history of the US ( under BOTH parties) in regards to many serious problems.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: gnu
Date: 20 Dec 12 - 09:13 PM

Bob... far mor "effective" weapons are made in machine shops, privately, every day by criminals. REAL criminals do not buy "regular" guns with serial numbers made by weapons makers.

The loose gun laws in the US make it easy for common street criminals to obtain guns. When we read that 10k+ handgun related deaths occur in USA in one year, we are talking about "legal" guns. That is a problem now... as I understand it (I am also a Canuck).

This will only add to that problem.

It's sad.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Dec 12 - 09:11 PM

Hey, that guy is my boss...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz
Date: 20 Dec 12 - 08:55 PM

Now you can have your very own...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOoUVeyaY_8


Seems to me a Carpenter had some pretty good ideas, we celebrate His birthday on Dec. 25

But WHO is paying attention around here?


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 20 Dec 12 - 08:50 PM

Bang!


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz
Date: 20 Dec 12 - 08:48 PM

And this...automatic shotgun...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4ebtj1jR7c

"the development stage"


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz
Date: 20 Dec 12 - 08:43 PM

Bill & Bobert: Bill, I was responding to your statement that this kind of tragedy could not be done with a knife...not entirely accurate. More similar stories available.

Bobert: have done all the rethinking for many years.

But then, while all the gun control yak yak is going on, I wonder if they intend to give out awards? Best gun control law, most effective gun control law, most respected gun control law,

While "they are doing that", We have this going on...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YqzJlBcCsow


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 20 Dec 12 - 01:55 PM

BB- the law prohibiting "assault weapon" was allowed to lapse by W.
And the law was flaweed by a failure to adequately characterize just wat an "assault weapon" was. A more practicable approach would be to maintain a list of specific weapons which would be prohibited, and have each new weapon introduced by any manufacturer categorized. There aren't that many. As far as gun ontrol vs. Psychological approsches--they'tr not mutually exclusive. Both should be investigated.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 Dec 12 - 01:43 PM

If NRA members and other gun owners were actually forced to show up for drills...

Well, Ron - a meeting of the minds after all these years. Whooda thunkit.

Show up for drill? With their pot-bellies, booze, and anti-government virulence?

Should be a real hoot.


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Mudcat time: 2 July 12:46 PM EDT

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