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Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 4

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Steve Gardham 09 Apr 13 - 10:42 AM
Richie 12 Apr 13 - 03:13 PM
GUEST,Steve 12 Apr 13 - 04:42 PM
Steve Gardham 12 Apr 13 - 04:47 PM
Richie 12 Apr 13 - 11:57 PM
Mick Pearce (MCP) 13 Apr 13 - 08:32 AM
Steve Gardham 13 Apr 13 - 10:02 AM
Steve Gardham 13 Apr 13 - 05:30 PM
Steve Gardham 13 Apr 13 - 06:19 PM
Steve Gardham 13 Apr 13 - 06:23 PM
Richie 13 Apr 13 - 09:45 PM
Steve Gardham 14 Apr 13 - 03:02 AM
Steve Gardham 14 Apr 13 - 03:59 AM
Mick Pearce (MCP) 14 Apr 13 - 02:59 PM
Mick Pearce (MCP) 14 Apr 13 - 03:01 PM
Steve Gardham 14 Apr 13 - 03:30 PM
Lighter 16 May 18 - 11:22 AM
Steve Gardham 16 May 18 - 04:52 PM
Lighter 16 May 18 - 07:37 PM
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Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 4
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 09 Apr 13 - 10:42 AM

Mick,
I'm afraid I can't read ABC but can just about get the gist of a simple tune from the dots.

What strikes me is some affiliation between the structure of 'Saw You My father' and 'Go From My Window'. Is there any milage in this?

Richie,

The Gilkie version is definitely Roud 22568. Steve has just sent me an update so if I can download it I will check all of the versions. The problem for Steve of course is what to do with the hybrids and I know we had a discussion on this recently. I will raise the matter again. I know he is extremely busy with all the Full English stuff. I will email Jim.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 4
From: Richie
Date: 12 Apr 13 - 03:13 PM

Hi,

Working on Henry Martin. Here's what I have:


http://bluegrassmessengers.com.temp.realssl.com/us--canada-versions-250-henry-martin.aspx


I'm missing these US versions. Anyone have them?

Paul Holland, head of a printing company in Springfield, knew many old songs, some of which he consistently refused to have recorded by the folksong hunters. In carefully chosen company, back in 1934, Mr. Holland sang a highly prized "family ballad" (Child 250) which he called "Andrew Bardeen" and believed to be virtually unknown outside the Holland clan. He would not allow collectors to write down either the words or the tune of this piece. Mr. Holland said in 1939 that he was preparing a large collection of folksongs for publication, but we failed to find anybody who has ever seen his manuscript. [Randolph]

Emma Dusenberry- reportedly knew a fragment [Randolph]

"Andrew Bardean" J. Kenneth Larsen text and tune Idaho. [Hubbard]
--------------------
Southern Folklore Quarterly - Volume 2 - Page 206; University of Florida, Alton Chester Morris, Southeastern Folklore Society - 1938 - Pound- Nebraska text learned in Ireland.

[incomplete]

He had not sailed on a cold winter's night
Till a ship he did spy.
It was sailing far off, it was sailing far off,
And at length it came sailing close by.

" Who's there, who's there?" cried Ander Bardeen;
"Who's there that sails so nice?"
"We are the rich vessels from old London shore
And my friends, I say, let us pass by."

"O no, O no, " cried Ander Bardeen,
"The thing it cannot be,
Your vessels I'll take, your cargo too,
And your men I will drown in the sea."

And now King George that held the throne,
An awful tale did hear,
That all his rich vessels were taken
And all of his jolly men drowned.

"Go build a ship, go build it quick,
Go build it tight and strong,
And put on board young Captain Joe Stuart
To take the ship's command."


TY

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 4
From: GUEST,Steve
Date: 12 Apr 13 - 04:42 PM

Hubbard on its way.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 4
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 12 Apr 13 - 04:47 PM

Cookie back on.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 4
From: Richie
Date: 12 Apr 13 - 11:57 PM

Roud 303 Twa Knights lists:

Roud No. 303: The Twa Knights (7 Listings)

HOG'S HEART, THE
Source Thompson, Pioneer Songster (1958) pp.11-18   
Performer   
Place collected USA : New York   
Collector   

KNIGHT IN GREEN
Source Flanders & Olney, Ballads Migrant in New England pp.184-191   
Performer   
Place collected USA   
Collector   

KNIGHT IN GREEN, THE
Source Thompson, Pioneer Songster (1958) pp.18-22   
Performer   
Place collected USA : New York   
Collector   

These are US version but I thought they are versions of Buchan's Northern Lord and Cruel Jew, from Buchan's Gleanings of Scotch, English, and Irish scarce old Ballade Peterhead, 1825.

They are somewhat similar in plot, but I'm confused.

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 4
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 13 Apr 13 - 08:32 AM

Steve - I don't see any particular connection between Saw You My Father and Go From My Window. What had you in mind in particular?

Mick


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Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 4
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 13 Apr 13 - 10:02 AM

I just wondered if there was any connection between them re the tune used. Is there a tune anywhere for 'Saw You My Father'? They seem to both be the same unusual metre.

Richie,
if there is a connection that will be very interesting for me. I'll check it out later today. I have both of these books, and I think I have a transcript of Gleanings somewhere.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 4
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 13 Apr 13 - 05:30 PM

Richie
These ballads are not necessarily directly related to each other. In the mid-18th century the hacks were taking tales and legends and putting them into verse all the time, hence Bramble Briar from Boccaccio. It's quite obvious some of these tales were coming from continental translations. At the same time antiquarians/poets were translating foreign ballads and passing them off as native material in some cases.

The Hog's Heart is The Chester Garland of which there is a copy in the Madden Collection. It can be found in many other collections in 55 verses. In fact one was printed locally to me in Hull, but I haven't got a record of it in the Bodleian (This doesn't mean it's not worth checking though)

Will check and compare the others you mention and report back.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 4
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 13 Apr 13 - 06:19 PM

Richie,
Brilliant and many thanks. I hadn't linked the 2 American versions either with each other despite having the same title, nor with Gleanings, nor with the garland ballad which is simply known as The Northern Lord and was widely printed. Most copies are 18thc but Pitts also printed it. Again it was printed by my local printer John Ferraby. There is a copy on the Bodl. Harding B4 (16) which has 49v but I have record of a copy with 56v.

I'd say Shakespeare is the more likely direct source for this one, whereas the other probably came directly from continental tales.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 4
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 13 Apr 13 - 06:23 PM

Just out of interest, why are you taking an interest in this as the ballad is not in ESPB? (But it does get a mention in ESB)


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Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 4
From: Richie
Date: 13 Apr 13 - 09:45 PM

Hi Steve,

The interest was that these three US versions are listed under Roud number 303- Twa Knights. Is 303 the number for Twa Knights? If so, why are teh three Us versions of Buchan's Nothern Lord there?

TY

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 4
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 14 Apr 13 - 03:02 AM

Yes, of course.
I'll get this corrected ASAP. I would imagine Steve will want to keep 303 for Northern Lord, and Chester Garland will be given a new number.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 4
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 14 Apr 13 - 03:59 AM

Sorry Richie.
Of course there are 3 ballads here. I'm sure Steve will keep 303 for the Child ballad and the other 2 will be given new numbers.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 4
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 14 Apr 13 - 02:59 PM

Steve

Chappell prints a tune for Saw You My Father (p781) from Thompson's Compleat Collection of 200 Favourite Country Dances - you can see it at abcnotation from that source (courtesy of VMP via JCs tunefinder I think ): Saw You My Father. (you need cookies for this link to work I think). I don't think there's much similarity with GFMW. It's not the only tune though and I haven't checked out any others.

Mick


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Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 4
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 14 Apr 13 - 03:01 PM

That Chappell ref should have been page 731 - can't read anymore!

Mick


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Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 4
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 14 Apr 13 - 03:30 PM

Thanks, Mick
My sight reading's far from perfect but from what I could get from it it isn't anything like GFMW. However I think I detect some similarity to some of the Irish tunes for hybrid versions of Grey Cock.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 4
From: Lighter
Date: 16 May 18 - 11:22 AM

CHARLEY

                        An Old Ballad

As I walked over London Bridge,
   One misty morning early,
'Twas there I spied a pretty fair maid,
   Lamenting for her Charley.

Said she: "Go bring my milk-white steed,
   All saddled and all ready,
That I might go to the king's high court
   And plead for the life of Charley.

And when she'd come to the king's high court,
   She stepped up so ready,
Saying, "Pray King George have mercy on me
   And grant me the life of Charley."

He turned himself right round about,
   And thus he spoke to Sally,
"You've come too late, my pretty fair maid,
   For he's condemned already."

Now Charley did not rob the king's high court,
   Nor did he murder;
But killed six of the king's fat deer,
   And he sold them in Bohemia.

So Charley is to be hung with a silk white cord,
   Which never has hung any;
Because he's the son of a noble lord,
   And loved by a royal lady.

Charley walked up and down the hall,
   As he took leave of many;
And he there took leave of his own true love,
   Which grieved him most of any.

Oh, if I could stand on yonder hill
   - Where I've had kisses many -
With a full drawn sword in my hand,
   I'd fight for the life of Charley.

From the Portland "Oregonian" (Apr. 1, 1917), "Contributed by George L. Foster, of Dryad, Washington."


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Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 4
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 16 May 18 - 04:52 PM

Is this version of Geordie in the right place, Jon?

Somewhat ironic title given the name of the singer.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads: US Versions Part 4
From: Lighter
Date: 16 May 18 - 07:37 PM

Richie was discussing Geordie earlier in the thread.

But I'm not wedded to this location.


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