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BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza

bobad 24 Dec 12 - 09:19 AM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Dec 12 - 08:43 AM
Steve Shaw 24 Dec 12 - 07:07 AM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Dec 12 - 02:06 AM
Steve Shaw 23 Dec 12 - 08:56 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 23 Dec 12 - 07:01 PM
Keith A of Hertford 23 Dec 12 - 05:12 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 23 Dec 12 - 03:35 PM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Dec 12 - 03:54 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 22 Dec 12 - 03:06 PM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Dec 12 - 02:36 AM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Dec 12 - 02:36 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 21 Dec 12 - 11:39 AM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Dec 12 - 06:46 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 21 Dec 12 - 06:36 AM
Steve Shaw 21 Dec 12 - 06:35 AM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Dec 12 - 06:24 AM
Steve Shaw 21 Dec 12 - 06:19 AM
Keith A of Hertford 20 Dec 12 - 07:06 PM
Keith A of Hertford 20 Dec 12 - 02:48 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 20 Dec 12 - 12:59 PM
Keith A of Hertford 20 Dec 12 - 08:14 AM
bobad 20 Dec 12 - 08:07 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 20 Dec 12 - 07:58 AM
Keith A of Hertford 20 Dec 12 - 06:59 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 20 Dec 12 - 06:33 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 20 Dec 12 - 06:28 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 20 Dec 12 - 06:23 AM
Keith A of Hertford 20 Dec 12 - 06:06 AM
Steve Shaw 20 Dec 12 - 05:56 AM
Keith A of Hertford 20 Dec 12 - 02:51 AM
MGM·Lion 20 Dec 12 - 02:22 AM
Keith A of Hertford 20 Dec 12 - 01:46 AM
Keith A of Hertford 20 Dec 12 - 01:25 AM
Steve Shaw 19 Dec 12 - 07:52 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 19 Dec 12 - 07:27 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 19 Dec 12 - 07:10 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 19 Dec 12 - 06:46 PM
Keith A of Hertford 19 Dec 12 - 03:19 PM
Keith A of Hertford 19 Dec 12 - 03:10 PM
Keith A of Hertford 19 Dec 12 - 02:42 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 19 Dec 12 - 12:31 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 19 Dec 12 - 11:45 AM
Keith A of Hertford 18 Dec 12 - 03:01 PM
Keith A of Hertford 18 Dec 12 - 03:00 PM
Keith A of Hertford 18 Dec 12 - 02:43 PM
Stringsinger 18 Dec 12 - 01:59 PM
Jim Carroll 18 Dec 12 - 01:11 PM
Jim Carroll 18 Dec 12 - 10:42 AM
Keith A of Hertford 18 Dec 12 - 08:39 AM
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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: bobad
Date: 24 Dec 12 - 09:19 AM

The Associated Press
Posted: Dec 24, 2012 8:29 AM ET

Gaza militants violated laws of war by launching hundreds of rockets at Israeli civilians during last month's fighting, Human Rights Watch said in a release Monday.

The Israeli military said 1,500 rockets were fired at Israel during the eight-day offensive against Gaza militants, including the first rockets from the Gaza Strip to strike the Tel Aviv and Jerusalem areas.

The rocket attacks killed three Israeli civilians and wounded dozens. Israeli assaults killed 169 Palestinians.

"Palestinian armed groups made clear in their statements that harming civilians was their aim," said Sarah Leah Whitson, Middle East director at the New York-based rights group. "There is simply no legal justification for launching rockets at populated areas."

Hamas, the Islamist group that controls Gaza, said it would comment on the report after its legal experts review it. The Israeli military did not address the substance of the report.

Last week, the New York-based group in a similar report said Israel violated laws of war in the same offensive by attacking journalists and media facilities in Gaza. Two Palestinian cameramen were killed and at least 10 media personnel were wounded in the Israeli operation.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Dec 12 - 08:43 AM

You think the racist terrorist child killers have a leg now?

I am discussing Gaza.
If you can not make a case, we can close the thread.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Dec 12 - 07:07 AM

Are you having a laugh or what? "This thread is about Gaza." That's a jolly convenient way of avoiding issues, Keith. What happens in Gaza cannot be so conveniently compartmentalised. If Israel treated all Palestinians in a truly democratic way, Hamas wouldn't have a leg to stand on. So answer the awkward bloody questions for once, eh!


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Dec 12 - 02:06 AM

Don, what actions would you like to discuss, bearing in mind this thread is about Gaza.
Likewise Steve. Let us finish discussing Gaza before we start yet another thread on the vastly complex issue of the whole ME.

Don, Islamic Resistance was formed to resist the existence of Israel and Jews.
They are using Gaza as an enclave to carry out indiscriminate terror attacks against Jews and you deny Israel the right to take any action to protect their people.
Or is there any action now that you are prepared to accept?


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Dec 12 - 08:56 PM

Israel, de facto, believes that the Palestinians are not entitled to any land. They seize land at will because they can. They have the power. No-one ever seriously opposes these outrageous land thefts in the West Bank. Straight question, Keith. Do you think it's all right for Israel to continue to take over Palestinian land for Israeli settlements? Yes or no will do nicely, Keith. As for Hamas's racism, well what do you think of those rules in Israel that make you a second-class citizen if you are not a Jew? Why is unemployment among Israeli Arabs so much higher than among Israeli Jews? Why is it OK for Palestinian family farms, generations-old, to be divided at a whim by an apartheid wall? Why is it OK for Palestinians in both Israel and the occupied West Bank to be subjected to road blocks that can stop them from seeing their families for three days whereas no such restrictions apply to Israeli Jews? Until you can give satisfactory answers to all these points, it ill behoves you to brand anyone else as racist.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 23 Dec 12 - 07:01 PM

""They are racist killers, and you take their side against the ordinary people they murder.
Nice Mr. Impartial Don.
""

OK Mr. Bigot, What is your excuse for the actions of your darling Israelis before Hamas came to power after defeating Fatah in elections in 2006 and militarily in 2007?

Hamas has only existed since 1987, twenty years after Israel occupied Gaza.

Hamas is a terrorist organisation right enough and as evil as any other.

The name Hamas is an acronym of "Ḥarakat al-Muqāwamat al-Islāmiyyah, meaning "Islamic Resistance Movement".

Resistance against WHAT?

Could it possibly be against Israel's ongoing occupation of the West Bank and Gaza?

Israel's establishment of (according to the UN) illegal settlements on Palestinian land?

You would have been the first to call the 1940s French Maquis heroes, and they were fighting against an occupying army, yet you would deny that Hamas started out as exactly the same type of organisation.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Dec 12 - 05:12 PM

Don, whatever Israel does or did makes no difference to Hamas.
Hamas believes Israel is entitled to no land at all.
Hamas believes that all Jews should be killed.
That is what they were founded to achieve.
That is what they are working towards.
Their suicide bombers seek out buses full of civilians, and preferably school kids.
They are recognised as terrorists by all our countries for their ruthless, merciless killing of ordinary people and children.

They are racist killers, and you take their side against the ordinary people they murder.
Nice Mr. Impartial Don.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 23 Dec 12 - 03:35 PM

""And impartial Don posts a hundred words attacking Israel for every one criticising the racist killers.""

You really are terminally dim.

It is your bigotted adherence to the idea that Israel has no responsibility for what is happening that I am attacking.

Israel has done, is doing and will continue to do wrong and evil things as long as the have the blind acceptance of Muslim haters such as you.

Now, go on, tell me again how Hamas bears all the blame for what has been happening since long before anybody had ever heard of them.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Dec 12 - 03:54 PM

No, it was Israel existing that drove Hamas to attack , and Jews existing that drove, and still drives, Hamas to kill them all.
Hamas does not hate Israelis.
Many are Muslims.
They hate all Jews everywhere and kill as many as they can and celebrate every death even, or especially, those of children.

And impartial Don posts a hundred words attacking Israel for every one criticising the racist killers.

your bigotted support of every nasty action of his lunatic government?
No Don.
I have just give Israel's side of the story.
Why would an impartial person object?


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 22 Dec 12 - 03:06 PM

""Don, your "impartiality" is exposed as a sham.
The indiscrimintae killing and terrorising of ordinary Jews was "evil" and "wrong" until asked what Israel might be allowed to do to prevent it.
Suddenly they are neither evil nor wrong, but "understandable" and Israel must do nothing!
""

BOLLOCKS!

There is nothing inherently illogical in deploring a wrong action, while understanding what might drive the miscreant to it.

The partiality is all on your side, Mr. Israeli Apologist

Are you expecting a cheque from Netanyahu for your bigotted support of every nasty action of his lunatic government?

The Palestinians didn't just hold a meeting and say "I know, let's lob a few rockets in the general direction of Israel! That'll teach 'em!""

Something drove them to taking on the world's fourth strongest military nation.

What do you think that was Keith?

Israel treating them with kindness and consideration, showing respect for their sovereignty and helping them out like good neighbours?

Or maybe, just maybe, Israel destroying their Olive groves, taking over their most fertile lands and establishing Israeli settlements, treating them with contempt and controlling their lives with a complete blockade which has existed ever since Israeli occupying troops pulled out of Gaza itself, having already built the fence which turned a country into a prison camp?

If a local bully slapped my face every time he saw me, I would keep trying until I landed one good kick to his gonads.

Get the idea?

Oh, and just in passing, if you had the intelligence, you might by now have been aware that I don't fall for your feeble but oft repeated attempts to trick me into appearing to be a Jew hater.

My argument is with the ISRAEI GOVERNMENT and the IDF!

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Dec 12 - 02:36 AM

Don, your "impartiality" is exposed as a sham.
The indiscrimintae killing and terrorising of ordinary Jews was "evil" and "wrong" until asked what Israel might be allowed to do to prevent it.
Suddenly they are neither evil nor wrong, but "understandable" and Israel must do nothing!

(And no-one should ever put Israel's side on Mudcsat)


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Dec 12 - 02:36 PM

If Israel rocketed its neighbours, it would expect something in return.
The blockade is a response to the attacks.
Israel has the absolute right to defend its people.

You acknowledge that Hamas is evil and its rockets wrong, but deny Israel any method of protecting its people from those evil and wrong rocket attacks!


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 21 Dec 12 - 11:39 AM

""Now, please tell us how Israel should counter the "evil" rockets fired at it from Gaza.""

NO!

You tell me what Israel would do, if its neighbours attempted to close its borders and blockade its coastal access, establish settlements on its territory and control its contact with the outside world. It would be war, and like the last one it would be the excuse for a land grab on the pretext of self defence.

That mate, whether you like it or not, is what Hamas is doing to the best of its very limited ability, self defence. It isn't right, but it is understandable.

Israel's response is neither.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Dec 12 - 06:46 AM

I just put the other side Don.
There are enough of you acting as mouthpieces for Palestinian propaganda.
As an impartial person you should be delighted that I put the other side.
Why do you claim I have posted lies?

Now, please tell us how Israel should counter the "evil" rockets fired at it from Gaza.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 21 Dec 12 - 06:36 AM

""Also, when you or the others post Palestinian propaganda, I have put Israel's perspective.
Why do you object to that?
""

You know damn well why! But to save you the bother of thinking, I'll repeat.

We allow and deplore that Hamas is wrongly hoying rockets across the border, and we say that Israel also bears blame for the situation. We produce evidence from the most respected organisations both in Israel and worldwide.

You on the other hand, thank us for admitting fault on Hamas' side, then ignore all evidence and diseminate unvarnished Israeli propaganda, refusing to accept that Israel is in any way wrong in their disproportionate responses.

You are a mouthpiece for Israeli lies.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Dec 12 - 06:35 AM

I am not a particularly dedicated follower of this thread. In general, I am far more in agreement with the spirit and substance of what Stringsinger says than with what you say. Now I have enough to get on with without allowing myself to be provoked into looking up a load of stuff buried among hundreds of posts that I have not read. So, please don't try to speak for me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Dec 12 - 06:24 AM

I was not speaking for you Steve.
I commented on what you chose not to say, not what you did say.
You chose not to endorse Stringsinger's assertions.
I do not blame you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Dec 12 - 06:19 AM

Kindly don't speak for me, please. I'll pick up and address specific points as I see fit, thanks.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Dec 12 - 07:06 PM

Stringsinger, neither Steve nor Don were prepared to support your holocaust, shoah, genocide, starvation shite.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Dec 12 - 02:48 PM

Allowing for two killed by short fire from Hamas (according to you and Israel), that still leaves 160,
?
No. They hit about 1500 targets in a heavily populated area yet only killed about 100 civilians."

I am not the person who spoke of Holocaust or Shoah. Take that up with the one who said it.
I have been for the whole thread.
Also, when you or the others post Palestinian propaganda, I have put Israel's perspective.
Why do you object to that?

My argument is now, has been, and will continue to be that you decry Hamas while endorsing everything Israel does.

No, I just reply to Palestinian propaganda with Israel's perspective.
Why do you object?

Meanwhile Israel is busily engaged in bombing Gaza back to the stone age street by street,
No it is not. Why exaggerate? You have become a propagandist.

on the pretext that rockets are being launched from whichever district is listed for destruction,
They strike discreet targets not districts.

their oppression of a neighbour.
An "evil" neighbour that launches indiscriminate terrorising missiles.
Again Don, how SHOULD they deal with that?

you decry Hamas
Not just me. Most democracies regard them as terrorists including all EU states (Ireland) and Canada.
while endorsing everything Israel does.
No, but they have the absolute right to act in defence of their people.
If not by sanctions and precision strikes, then how?


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 20 Dec 12 - 12:59 PM

""Don, they hit about 1500 targets in a heavily populated area and only killed about 100 civilians.""

Allowing for two killed by short fire from Hamas (according to you and Israel), that still leaves 160, with 999 injured, some of whom will ultimately die. Source: Global Research Agency!

Nice try though.

Your other protests are disingenuous, since I am not the person who spoke of Holocaust or Shoah. Take that up with the one who said it.

My argument is now, has been, and will continue to be that you decry Hamas while endorsing everything Israel does.

That is simply untenable. It is arrant nonsense to maintain, as you consistently do, that Israel bears no responsibility for the circumstances which led to these ongoing hostilities.

It is a FACT that Israel has manipulated Palestine and more particularly Gaza into a position where they depend upon Israel for their very lives.

Israel, not Hamas, is the de facto ruler of Gaza with their army boots firmly planted on its throat.

They can destroy it, occupy it, or starve it at will, and all that Gaza can do is to smuggle in, piece by piece, a few puny rockets, capable of doing little more than frighten Israelis with well constructed air raid shelters (as witness 20 kills in 10 years).

Meanwhile Israel is busily engaged in bombing Gaza back to the stone age street by street, on the pretext that rockets are being launched from whichever district is listed for destruction, and phone calls are a very poor substitute for ir raid shelters, if indeed they actually happen.

You are either very naive, very gullible, or very evil and I can't make up my mind which, but your refusal to even acknowledge, let alone respond to, the comments of organisations such as the UN, Global Research, B'Tselem and Israeli military men with actual experience, says much about which it might be.

Even if Israel is trying not to alienate the world by killing to many children they otherwise don't give a damn about, it doesn't justify their oppression of a neighbour.

When Hamas threatens to wipe out Israel (a ridiculous and impossible threat) you are incensed.

But you have no comment to make when Gilad Sharon says that Gaza should be flattened, and a high ranking Israeli politician says it is necessary to bomb Gaza back to mediaeval level (a much more easily achievable aim and more likely than Hamas making an impression by throwing fireworks).

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Dec 12 - 08:14 AM

Don, they hit about 1500 targets in a heavily populated area and only killed about 100 civilians.

That means either that they are total incompetents at killing civilians, or they are brilliant at missing them.

 Israel issued written warnings and made thousands of phone calls to Gaza residents, advising them to stay far away
from terrorist installations that would be targeted in air strikes.
Only 25 percent of those killed during NATO's operations in Kosovo were combatants, and that was a much less densely populated than Gaza.

Don, you acknowledge that the missiles are evil and wrong.
Israel has a right to respond.
If not with sanctions or precision strikes, then how?

I am not going to try and justify every casualty in Gaza.
My case on this thread is just that there is no holocaust, no shoah, no genocide and no starvation in Gaza.

Are you disputing that?


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: bobad
Date: 20 Dec 12 - 08:07 AM

According to Ha'Aretz, "Palestinians reported that in some cases, the caller leaves a message on their voice mail warning that the IDF will bomb any house where weapons are rockets are found and the owners of the houses will be the ones to suffer the consequences."

Ha'Aretz says the calls are "a new tactic meant to reduce civilian casualties." And that may be one functions of the messages. But it seems to be that the calls also serve as a mighty effective psychological operation — one that's very much in keeping with Israel's high-tech approach to the information war.

During the 2006 war with Hezbollah, Israelis used text messages to warn residents of incoming rockets. Last week, as the airstrikes against Hamas began, "thousands of Gazans received Arabic-language cell-phone messages from the Israeli military, urging them to leave homes where militants might have stashed weapons," according to the AP.

And the Israelis aren't the only ones trying to use cell phones as a military advantage. Hamas has been sending Hebrew-language text messages to Israelis' phones, warning them that "all cities" will be threatened by the terror group's rocket attacks.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 20 Dec 12 - 07:58 AM

Well, they could continue with their present responses until there's nobody left alive in Gaza.

Is that what you want?

It's up to Israel to find some other response which won't end in genocide, wouldn't you say?

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Dec 12 - 06:59 AM

Don, Vilnai made no comment on the food proposal.
He was threatening military action to stop the rockets.

You are joining the Israeli government in claiming that all or most of the civilian casualties are as a result of Hamas using them to shield the firing of rockets.
No-one is claiming that, but Hamas acknowledges that some are.

You forgot to tell us what Israel SHOULD do to stop those evil and wrong rockets.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 20 Dec 12 - 06:33 AM

""Don & Steve, who, apart from Don's at one point uncharacteristic & unfortunate lapse into calling him a "s**t" [sic], at least maintain a reasonable civility of response in keeping with K's generally urbane tone.""

Having been called worse names than that by Keith many times over the last three or more years, and recently had motives attributed to me by him, which are vile, disgusting and utterly untrue, I rather think you might cut me a little slack in response Mike.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 20 Dec 12 - 06:28 AM

""It was nothing to do with his promise to ensure sufficient food was delivered to Gaza, and it was FIVE YEARS AGO.""

Even there you cannot bring yourself to quote accurately what he said.

His promise was to put them on a diet, by giving them just sufficient food to live.

About the same commitment as anybody running a concentration camp, which is exactly what Gaza currently is.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 20 Dec 12 - 06:23 AM

""No sanctions obviously.
No military action because Hamas ensure that civilians must die.
""

You really are a devious sod.

You are joining the Israeli government in claiming that all or most of the civilian casualties are as a result of Hamas using them to shield the firing of rockets.

Israel ensures that those people are injured or killed, by first denying them any place to shelter, and then bombing the bejeezis out of whole areas of domestic dwellings.

It is ridiculous to believe that 865 homes destroyed (plus all the other buildings I listed above) can possibly be described as avoiding civilian casualties. There simply aren't that many rockets being fired.

It is the opposite, and you make yourself ridiculous by holding to that false statement.

Even Israeli soldiers give the lie to it, in addition to Israeli Human Rights Groups, The Global Research Agency, the United Nations Team in Gaza, Amnesty International, and most of the civilised world.

You claim to know more than they do?......You are a megalomaniac!

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Dec 12 - 06:06 AM

Fair comment Steve, except that Israel has twice showed that it does not want to destroy Gaza or kill Gazans, it just wants them to stop attacking.

Iran has not yet developed the means to eliminate Israel, but all its actions via its proxy Hamas leave it firmly on the cards.

So Steve, my case on this thread is just that there is no holocaust, no shoah, no genocide and no starvation in Gaza.

Are you disputing that?


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Dec 12 - 05:56 AM

Nor has there been any wiping of Israel off the map, but that doesn't stop Zionist apologists dredging it up at every opportunity. Double standard there, Keith.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Dec 12 - 02:51 AM

When people posted Palestinian propaganda, I have put Israel's perspective for the sake of balance, but my case on this thread has just been that there is no holocaust, no shoah, no genocide and no starvation in Gaza.

I am very surprised that anyone argues against that, because it is demonstrably true.
But still, they do.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 20 Dec 12 - 02:22 AM

Revisiting this dismal, depressing thread for first time in several days. Find I still can't altogether agree with Keith but feel he has some points which appear sound, as e.g. to the age of the stupid Vilnai's threat [which only a minute bit of the small print of the OP ref'd article anyhow]; with mainly rational opposition from Don & Steve, who, apart from Don's at one point uncharacteristic & unfortunate lapse into calling him a "s**t" [sic], at least maintain a reasonable civility of response in keeping with K's generally urbane tone. In contrast to the egregious stinkingly-mannered Carroll, who can't argue without becoming abusive, flinging about hysterical accusations of 'hypocrisy' and such if anyone dares to question his doctrinaire and unshiftable lefty assumptions ~~ the sure mark of a pathetic fool. I used to have some respect for him folklorically, despite that pathetic arselicking of the MacColl ethic (all too clearly of a piece characteristically with his overall approach, in retrospect); but have sadly come to realise he is just a booby not worthy of the compliment of rational opposition, as the incomparable Jane Austen so cogently expresssed it.

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Dec 12 - 01:46 AM

Vilnai alone used the word, referring to military action to stop the rockets.
It was nothing to do with his promise to ensure sufficient food was delivered to Gaza, and it was FIVE YEARS AGO.
Israel has entered Gaza twice since then.
No Holocaust. No Shoah.
BBC Feb 2008
Speaking on Israel Army Radio, Mr Vilnai said if Palestinians increased rocket fire, they would bring upon themselves a "shoah".

The BBC's Katya Adler in Jerusalem says many of Mr Vilnai's colleagues have quickly distanced themselves from his comments and also tried to downplay, them saying he did not mean genocide.

"We're getting close to using our full strength. Until now, we've used a small percentage of the army's power because of the nature of the territory," he added.

Now Don, you acknowledge that Hamas are "evil" and their rocket firing "wrong."
I asked you what Israel SHOULD do to stop that evil wrong.
No sanctions obviously.
No military action because Hamas ensure that civilians must die.
So what?


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Dec 12 - 01:25 AM

Don, you said, "There you go again, you devious little s**t. Now post any reference by me to the Holocaust (Capitalised, you will notice) or apologise for attempting to blacken me with a LIE!"

I took that to mean you did not support describing Gaza as a Holocaust.
SO, DO YOU OR DO YOU NOT, BECAUSE STRINGSINGER DID IT IN HIS OP.

In using the word Shoah, he was quoting verbatim from an Israeli source.
I do not believe that Don, but anyway do we agree that use of "holocaust" in this thread is a vile lie?
The Holocaust was an unprecedented horror in all of human history.
Millions died in unbearable misery and suffering in industrialised extermination.
There is no Holocaust inflicted on Gaza.
Agree Don?
Steve?


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 07:52 PM

I hope we can get Steve and Jim to join us in condemning Stringsinger for his OP

I have not been posting to this thread much because of the sheer futility of trying to confront Keith's immovable blind prejudice and bigotry. This comment, quoted above, is a provocation too far. I suppose I shouldn't respond. But I've looked at the opening post of this thread and I see nothing wrong with it. Keith, your man Vilnai said what he said and I have no reason to believe that he didn't mean it. So Stringsinger, who doesn't actually need it anyway, gets my full support for exposing the racist bastard who made that intemperate remark. And, as you're inviting condemnation, I have absolutely no hesitation in condemning your horrid, racist and blind Islamophobic posturing in this and many other threads on this board. Goodnight, Keith.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 07:27 PM

Also Keith, Israel has loaded the dice heavily against avoiding civilian casualties by not allowing them the materials to build air raid shelters, on the pretext that they might use them to protect rockets.

So, while my heart goes out to those poor Israeli civilians who are, as you put it ""cowering in their shelters for fear of rocket attacks"", I'm afraid I must state that I have a great deal more sympathy for those Palestinian civilians cowering unprotected and being killed or maimed by eight days of attacks destroying 865 of their homes.

At least the Israeli civilians can take shelter!. Israel has set the Palestinians up as targets.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 07:10 PM

""Over a thousand targets hit from land, sea and air in a densely populated urban area, but less than a hundred civilian deaths, and some civilians willing shields and martyrs according to Hamas.""

You well know that the ""willing martyrs"" quote is Islamic rhetoric. They have always classified non combatants killed as martyrs to the cause.

""Seemingly after a while the dead and dismembered are just part of the day job.

The eight day blitz killed one hundred and sixty two Palestinians in what were merciless attacks on families with nowhere to hide. Nine hundred and ninety nine were injured. Eight hundred and sixty five houses are damaged or destroyed.

Six health centres are damaged, thirty schools, two universities, fifteen NGO offices, twenty seven mosques, fourteen media offices, eleven industrial plants, eighty one commercial stores and a UNRWA food distribution Centre.

In addition seven Ministry offices, fourteen police or security stations, five banks, and two youth clubs. The sports complex where the Palestinians athletes and paralympians trained for the 2012 London Olympics is reduced to rubble, as is the beautiful and most necessary Gaza Interior Ministry.

On Universal Children's Day, 20th November, an air strike destroyed the Oxfam-supported Al Bajan kindergarten school and damaged the Al Housna kindergarten. Oxfam's Sara Almer commented that more than one hundred and fifty children attended these kindergartens. "The children are safe, but the places where they learned and played are now in ruins." This in an area: "where they already suffer a high level of trauma …"

The Oxfam project was as a result of the devastation caused by "Operation Cast Lead" between 27th December 2008-17th January 2009, when they also repaired the now re-fractured water and sanitation facilities.

There is a shortage of two hundred and thirty schools in Gaza, the Agency points out – and a ban on importing construction materials, which means the further thirty two damaged, the two universities and all else may well stay that way.

Ironically, on the day of the nurseries' destruction, the UN Secretary General announced, that marking Universal Children's Day, the launch of a major UN initiative: "Education First." The day commemorates the adoption of the UN Declaration of the Rights of the Child of 1959 and the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child in 1989. The 1989 Convention entered in to force on September 2nd 1990, under a month after the UN embargo on Iraq, with even baby milk formula importation denied.

"The child … needs special safeguards and care, including appropriate legal protection before as well as after birth" is included in the preamble to a fine document.

Four year old twins, Suhaib and Muhammed Hijazi will never learn of the "protection" they are entitled to by the United Nations. They were killed when their home was bombed as the dawn of Universal Children's Day approached. Their parents, Fouad and Amna died in hospital.

Saraya, eighteen months, won't grow to read the fine words either, she died of a heart attack, literally frightened to death by the bombardment.
""

1161 casualties of Israel's attempts to avoid collateral damage in eight days of bombardment of a densely populated urban environment.

And which of those four year old twins, or their parents are you claiming were either shielding or participating in the firing of missiles in the dead of night Keith, or was it the eighteen month old baby?

Israel kills, in eight days, eight times as many Palestinians as Hamas has killed Israelis in ten years.

Yet we agree that Hamas is trying hard to kill Israelis, while you insist that Israel is doing its best not to kill Palestinian civilians.

Neither is all that successful are they?

But, of course, we've already heard from Israeli soldiers that ""At the briefings everyone we killed is a terrorist"".

Now, I really would like some sensible comment from you Keith as to how those 1161 casualties could possibly be terrorists, especially as about half of them are children.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 06:46 PM

""I hope we can get Steve and Jim to join us in condemning Stringsinger for his OP.""

Don't you dare put words in my mouth on the basis of a total non sequitur.

There is only one thing that you and I agree on, and that is the fact that Hamas is wrong to be firing rockets.

As far as Israel is concerned we are poles apart, and if you ever took the trouble to read the reams of evidence from Israeli, Palestinian, and world wide organisations, you might actually gain some understanding of just how wrong you are in your fanatical defence of the Israeli government's actions.

So don't look for my support against Stringsinger. In using the word Shoah, he was quoting verbatim from an Israeli source.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 03:19 PM

Sorry about link.
I can not make it work.
Please google text.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 03:10 PM

Don, re the casualties in the recent conflict.
You have accepted that Hamas is "evil."
That evil is manifested in indiscriminate missile attacks that terrorise ordinary people and prevent them going to work or school or living acceptable lives.
In your opinion Don, what should Israel do to stop them?

Try to attack the missiles and activists while trying to spare civilians is what they did.
Over a thousand targets hit from land, sea and air in a densely populated urban area, but less than a hundred civilian deaths, and some civilians willing shields and martyrs according to Hamas.
Such a low casualty rate is unprecedented in military history.
That shows how hard Israel tried.
Perhaps they should have tried harder.
I wish the numbers were even less.

"According to investigations now completed by DCI(Defence for Children International - Palestine Section ), 33 out of the 158 Palestinians killed in Israeli attacks on Gaza between 14 and 21 November 2012 were children. Two additional children were killed by Palestinian rockets falling short and one child was killed whilst participating in hostilities, giving a total of 36 child fatalities."

I know.
One child death is too many.

"DCI concludes investigations – Children make up approximately 23 percent of fatalities in Gaza"
Children represent 50% of the population of Gaza, so at least they were slightly under-represented.
http://www.dci-palestine.org/documents/dci-concludes-investigations-%E2%80%93-children-make-approximately-23-percent-fatalities-


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 02:42 PM

Don, from my first post on this thread I have been objecting to the terms "holocaust" and "shoah" being used in this context.
That is the only case I wanted to argue.
If only you had given one hint in the last 600+ posts that you agreed with me, you and I could have moved on.

Anyway that is forgotten. You and I agree that the premise of this thread is a vile lie.
The Holocaust was an unprecedented horror in all of human history.
Millions died in unbearable misery and suffering in industrialised extermination.
There is no shoah or Holocaust inflicted on Gaza.

I hope we can get Steve and Jim to join us in condemning Stringsinger for his OP.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 12:31 PM

Knowing that Keith hardly ever gives attention to any publication which might shake his intense faith in the Israeli government's propaganda machine, I am posting this from one of Stringsinger's lists.

It is worth taking note of the type of buildings destroyed in the latest attack on Gazan infrastructure. Does anybody really think that evn one percent of those houses contained rocket firing terrorists?

What they did contain was 162 human beings, many of them children, who would die, and 999 who would be injured. 1161 casualties, who could not escape because the materials for shelters are barred by the people who decry their own citizens having to shelter from a few unguided rockets.AT LEAST THEY CAN TAKE SHELTER!

This should be topical enough for you Keith (November 24th 2012):-

""Israeli War Crimes: "Surgical Strikes" against Palestinian Children
The "International Community" Also Lies Buried
By Felicity Arbuthnot
Global Research, November 24, 2012

It was that "pinpoint accuracy", "surgical strike" stuff again, there were "unavoidable tragic errors", "mistakes", "scrupulous efforts made to avoid" etc., blah. And as Britain's Colonel Richard Kemp declared of the fourteen hundred dead of the Christmas and New year onslaught on Gaza in 2008-2009: "Mistakes are not war crimes." (i)

Colonel Kemp, with impeccable ties to British Intelligence Services, spoke to the BBC from Jerusalem in similar sanguine vein on 21st November, of the then latest twenty four hour bombardment of the tiny, walled in Gaza Strip, where over half the population are children. But Colonel Kemp has seen a fair amount of carnage in his time, from Belfast to the Balkans, Iraq, Afghanistan and elsewhere. Seemingly after a while the dead and dismembered are just part of the day job.

The eight day blitz killed one hundred and sixty two Palestinians in what were merciless attacks on families with nowhere to hide. Nine hundred and ninety nine were injured. Eight hundred and sixty five houses are damaged or destroyed.

Six health centres are damaged, thirty schools, two universities, fifteen NGO offices, twenty seven mosques, fourteen media offices, eleven industrial plants, eighty one commercial stores and a UNRWA food distribution Centre.

In addition seven Ministry offices, fourteen police or security stations, five banks, and two youth clubs. The sports complex where the Palestinians athletes and paralympians trained for the 2012 London Olympics is reduced to rubble, as is the beautiful and most necessary Gaza Interior Ministry.

On Universal Children's Day, 20th November, an air strike destroyed the Oxfam-supported Al Bajan kindergarten school and damaged the Al Housna kindergarten. Oxfam's Sara Almer commented that more than one hundred and fifty children attended these kindergartens. "The children are safe, but the places where they learned and played are now in ruins." This in an area: "where they already suffer a high level of trauma …"

The Oxfam project was as a result of the devastation caused by "Operation Cast Lead" between 27th December 2008-17th January 2009, when they also repaired the now re-fractured water and sanitation facilities.

There is a shortage of two hundred and thirty schools in Gaza, the Agency points out – and a ban on importing construction materials, which means the further thirty two damaged, the two universities and all else may well stay that way.

Ironically, on the day of the nurseries' destruction, the UN Secretary General announced, that marking Universal Children's Day, the launch of a major UN initiative: "Education First." The day commemorates the adoption of the UN Declaration of the Rights of the Child of 1959 and the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child in 1989. The 1989 Convention entered in to force on September 2nd 1990, under a month after the UN embargo on Iraq, with even baby milk formula importation denied.

"The child … needs special safeguards and care, including appropriate legal protection before as well as after birth" is included in the preamble to a fine document.

Four year old twins, Suhaib and Muhammed Hijazi will never learn of the "protection" they are entitled to by the United Nations. They were killed when their home was bombed as the dawn of Universal Children's Day approached. Their parents, Fouad and Amna died in hospital.

Saraya, eighteen months, won't grow to read the fine words either, she died of a heart attack, literally frightened to death by the bombardment.

As the lights went off in Gaza's hospitals, and their generator fuel hovered on empty, Gilad Sharon – youngest son of eighty four year old former Israeli Prime Minister, Ariel Sharon, who has benefited from Israel's fine health services and been on life support systems since 2006 – stated: "We need to flatten entire neighbourhoods in Gaza. Flatten all of Gaza. The Americans didn't stop with Hiroshima – the Japanese weren't surrendering fast enough, so they hit Nagasaki too."

Israel's Interior Minister Eli Yishai stated that the goal of the attacks were to: " … send Gaza back to the Middle Ages."
Palestine has no army, navy, air force, no heavy weaponry. Israel is an undeclared nuclear power, regarded as having the fourth strongest military on earth.

Gaza was, of course being bombed by American supplied F-16s and a variety of American weaponry. But as Gaza grieved, America had parades across the land, ate turkey, prayed over their festive dinners on Thanksgiving Day, 22nd November.

Reality would have had them burning, city to city, The UN Declaration and Convention on the Rights of the Child, The UN Declaration on Human Rights, The Geneva Convention, The Nuremberg Principles and making a pyre of all the fine, meaningless words which do not end or mask international lawlessness and inhumanity. A bonfire which might light the lie of the whole murderous hypocrisy of self proclaimed "democratic" nation states.
""

Keith, you should be consumed with shame for not only supporting this, but trying to deny it ever happened.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 11:45 AM

""If you want to justify that ludicrous, obscene claim, insulting to the memory of actual holocaust victims, please do so or shut up.""

There you go again, you devious little s**t. Now post any reference by me to the Holocaust (Capitalised, you will notice) or apologise for attempting to blacken me with a LIE!

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 03:01 PM

Stringsinger,
No Keith, your facts are all lies and backed up by no proof whatsoever. They are merely your opinions.
I ask you AGAIN to produce ONE unsubstantiated fact of mine.
I say you LIE Strinsinger!
Your "holocaust" in Gaza is worse than an unsubstantiated fact Stringsinger
It is a grotesque lie..
Also your "shoah", "genocide" and "starvation."

Palestinian children are suffering from malnutrition which is a form of starvation.
NO! Malnutrition is found EVERYWHERE.
In my town. In your town. Everywhere.
Starvation is where people DIE FOR WANT OF FOOD.
That has NEVER happened in Gaza, and that is a FACT Stringsinger.

There is only one person who reported denying that there was starvation in Gaza and she is most suspect as is the current form of the Red Cross.
I think YOU are a bit more suspect than the International Red Cross Stringsinger.
When children are starving, they need special treatment including glucose infusion.
Are any UN agencies doing that in Gaza?
Save The Children?
Oxfam?
Medicine Sans Frontiers?
Red Crescent/Cross?
Who is giving substantiated facts and who is spouting vile lies and propaganda Stringsinger?


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 03:00 PM

Stringsinger,
No Keith, your facts are all lies and backed up by no proof whatsoever. They are merely your opinions.
I ask you AGAIN to produce ONE unsubstantiated fact of mine.
I say you LIE Strinsinger!
Your "holocaust" in Gaza is worse than an unsubstantiated fact Stringsinger
It is a grotesque lie..
Also your "shoah", "genocide" and "starvation."

Palestinian children are suffering from malnutrition which is a form of starvation.
NO! Malnutrition is found EVERYWHERE.
In my town. In your town. Everywhere.
Starvation is where people DIE FOR WANT OF FOOD.
That has NEVER happened in Gaza, and that is a FACT Stringsinger.

There is only one person who reported denying that there was starvation in Gaza and she is most suspect as is the current form of the Red Cross.
I think YOU are a bit more suspect than the International Red Cross Stringsinger.
When children are starving, they need special treatment including glucose infusion.
Are any UN agencies doing that in Gaza?
Save The Children?
Oxfam?
Medicine Sans Frontiers?
Red Crescent/Cross?
Who is giving substantiated facts and who is spouting vile lies and propaganda Stringsinger?


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 02:43 PM

Jim, You forgot to say that the date on your BBC piece was 3rd May 2010.
The list I posted was july 2010 so why are you still posting out of date shite.
It is dishonest Jim and does you no credit.
The lying and fanaticism are not mine are they Jim.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Stringsinger
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 01:59 PM

No Keith, your facts are all lies and backed up by no proof whatsoever. They are merely your opinions.

In fact, the Palestinians are being destroyed as a country because Israel is denying their right to be one.

Palestinian children are suffering from malnutrition which is a form of starvation.

There is only one person who reported denying that there was starvation in Gaza and she is most suspect as is the current form of the Red Cross.

The problem here is that by their actions, Israel could trigger another world war.

I'm not saying that everyone in Islam is sane, particularly the Salafist element from Syria that bombed Palestine. It might be that Israel is working with Assad although that connection is my speculation.

The Gazans exist in an open air prison with little chance of their becoming a nation as long as Israel dominates them.

More proof

More proof

and more

http://www.globalresearch.ca/israeli-war-crimes-surgical-strikes-against-palestinian-children/5312787

So instead of starving Palestinian children, it's easier for Israel to kill them.

Believe me, there's plenty more where the above came from.


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 01:11 PM

Incidentally, this is the situation prevailing at the time of Keith's out-of-date news item
"Three years ago, after the Islamist Hamas movement seized power, Israel and Egypt tightened their closure of Gaza's borders, leaving the territory's 1.5 million inhabitants facing acute shortages.
But Israel has never published a list of banned items, saying it approves requests on a case-by-case basis.
Items allowed have changed over time,
which has left humanitarian organisations and commercial importers constantly attempting to guess what will be approved.
The court case has been brought by the Israeli human rights group, Gisha.
The group has been trying, for more than a year, using freedom of information legislation, to squeeze information from the state about what exactly is allowed for import to Gaza, and why."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8654337.stm

Really must go - holidays call
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 10:42 AM

"And Jim, I posted that list for you on 3rd December."
Out of date then - still out of date now
THERE IS NO UP TO DATE LIST OF BANNED GOODS GOING INTO PALESTINE THEREFORE OFFICIALS CAN STOP WHATEVER THEY CHOOSE
DELAYS CAUSED BY THIS FACT HAVE LED TO SHORTAGES OF MEDICINES, EVEN DEATHS - YOU HAVE BEEN PRESENTED WITH THIS EVIDENCE; IF YOU HAVE ANY CONTRARY EVIDENCE TO DISPROVE IT, PLEASE LET US HAVE IT; OTHERWISE YOU ARE ONCE AGAIN LYING TO COVER YOUR FANATICISM
"teehee; isn't poor old James-the-Pathetic getting desperate!"
Tee, hee, poor old Michael still trying to cover up the fact that he hasn't the balls to state his real opinions instead of hiding behind his mouthpiece
Of course, you could prove me wrong by giving your opinions on Keith's moronic claims, but I won't hold my breath.
What a ******* pair - can't decide which is the ventriloquist and which the dummy - they take it in turns maybe
Byee
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Vilnai: inflict a 'shoah' on Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 08:39 AM

I do not recognise myself in that nonsense Don.
I told you yesterday that I have never claimed Israel or any country is "squeaky clean and white as the driven snow, never done anything nasty"
However, They have never "destroy a neighbouring country," and as for "feeding the poor souls out of the goodness of their little Israeli hearts" they do supply food to the country that attacks it.

As for all the other stuff, I am just saying that there is no shoah or holocaust inflicted on Gaza, is there?
If you want to justify that ludicrous, obscene claim, insulting to the memory of actual holocaust victims, please do so or shut up.

Likewise genocide on the thriving and robustly reproducing Gazans.

Likewise one single death from starvation in the last 50 years.

Like wise any food shortages in view of outright denials by Red Cross, no restrictions on food imports, and surplus food being exported by
the hundreds of tons.


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