mudcat.org: Folk and Nationalism
Lyrics & Knowledge Personal Pages Record Shop Auction Links Radio & Media Kids Membership Help
The Mudcat Cafeawe

Post to this Thread - Sort Descending - Printer Friendly - Home


Folk and Nationalism

j0_77 22 Oct 99 - 10:45 AM
Fortunato 22 Oct 99 - 11:22 AM
Freddie Fox 22 Oct 99 - 11:29 AM
T in Oklahoma (Okiemockbird) 22 Oct 99 - 12:01 PM
Aine 22 Oct 99 - 12:01 PM
M. Ted (inactive) 22 Oct 99 - 12:46 PM
Áine 22 Oct 99 - 01:38 PM
bseed(charleskratz) 22 Oct 99 - 01:58 PM
McGrath of Harlow 22 Oct 99 - 06:53 PM
McGrath of Harlow 22 Oct 99 - 06:59 PM
Art Thieme 22 Oct 99 - 07:52 PM
j0_77 22 Oct 99 - 10:23 PM
-gargoyle 22 Oct 99 - 10:36 PM
katlaughing 23 Oct 99 - 04:11 AM
McGrath of Harlow 23 Oct 99 - 04:49 AM
wildlone 23 Oct 99 - 12:10 PM
j0_77 23 Oct 99 - 01:13 PM
wildlone 23 Oct 99 - 01:28 PM
j0_77 23 Oct 99 - 01:40 PM
bseed(charleskratz) 23 Oct 99 - 03:42 PM
Freddie Fox 23 Oct 99 - 06:12 PM
bseed(charleskratz) 23 Oct 99 - 06:18 PM
Freddie Fox 23 Oct 99 - 06:25 PM
Frank Hamllton 24 Oct 99 - 04:06 PM
bseed(charleskratz) 24 Oct 99 - 05:30 PM
Art Thieme 24 Oct 99 - 08:44 PM
rich r 24 Oct 99 - 11:35 PM
Mían 25 Oct 99 - 08:21 PM
Frank Hamilton 26 Oct 99 - 03:54 PM
Share Thread
more
Lyrics & Knowledge Search [Advanced]
DT  Forum
Sort (Forum) by:relevance date
DT Lyrics:




Subject: Folk and Nationalism
From: j0_77
Date: 22 Oct 99 - 10:45 AM

Odd but true the notes E D C in equal measure start thousands of tunes. It does not take a genious to reckon there's many a tune made of bits taken from other tunes or in many a case a bit of one married to the image of some 'world' sound. Music knows no border.

The claim made by some authors about the origin of folk lyric make me dizzy. Those influenced ought to reread the material with a more critical eye. I almost came to a sticky end with one moutain person who insisted 'Rosin the Bow' was a French song ie 'Rosin le Beau'. I was actualy talking about an Itinerant Fiddler who gained some fame in Victorian Britain singing the song 'Rosin The Bow' and who later became know as MR da dah Rosin the Bow.

True I do live in Oklahoma USA, true I did write the lyric to a couple of songs here and there, but I must say I took some comfort in what I had already read or heard, including poetry, from every corner of the globe. If in times to come there were to be a dispute between two Nations as to who 'owned' those lyrics, then twould be a geat arguement for I am neither a native nor a true Brit, and having some ancient Gaulish genes, the French also could also enter the fray. Poetry and lyric make word art which enhances a language like Pushkin does Russian, but that motive has little to do with Nationalism.

I find the whole thing rather ridiculus, especialy Child and Sharpe. I know I'll swiftly be slapped down here, but unburdened of that prejudice which long hinders good art I became liberated long long ago.

The best folk songs are a product of coperative effort and many a fine reel was made in session, but not by a sole fiddler. In fact I'd say that what makes folk so widely loved is it's anonymity.

Comments?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk and Nationalism
From: Fortunato
Date: 22 Oct 99 - 11:22 AM

Do you know the Zen saying?:

Do not mistake the finger pointing for the moon.

Differentiation and derivation have their place,

but the labeling of a thing is not the thing itself.

All such labels are at best approximation and so

convenient illusions.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk and Nationalism
From: Freddie Fox
Date: 22 Oct 99 - 11:29 AM

On the subject - did the folk song 'lili bulero' [may not be spelt like that!!] come from Mozart, or did Mozart nick the tune?

And does anyone know the origin of the Londonderry Air? If Julian May [Saga of the Exiles - SciFi] is to be believed, is it extremely ancient and the origins obscure. Should be interested to know.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk and Nationalism
From: T in Oklahoma (Okiemockbird)
Date: 22 Oct 99 - 12:01 PM

jO_77, I'm not sure quite what your meaning is. Precisely what "whole thing" do you find ridiculous ? The concept of "national music" ?

An idea which I accept: that there are, or can be, such things as "regional dialects" in music.

An idea which I utterly REJECT is a concept which I detect in certain writers: a sort of super-copyright law, under which only the inhabitants of a certain region, or only people of certain bloodlines, are entitled to develop and perform certain melodies or genres of music. This notion is utterly repugnant to creative freedom.

Is either of these what you were getting at ?

T.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk and Nationalism
From: Aine
Date: 22 Oct 99 - 12:01 PM

Dear Freddie,

We've had several threads on the Londonderry Air. Go to this link on Mudcat and browse the various threads:

http://www.mudcat.org/quicksearch.cfm?who=LONDONDERRY+AIR

- Aine


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk and Nationalism
From: M. Ted (inactive)
Date: 22 Oct 99 - 12:46 PM

There is a thread still lingering here called "How can we make folk music more appealing?" but I don't know how to make those blue things yet--

Melodies are very contagious things--composers often take melodies that they hear in the streets and develop them into concert pieces of various sorts without compunction--They get picked up and moved around a lot amongst the "folk" as well, and many of them get altered slightly to accomodate a particular dance rhythm or lyric meter that may be popular in the adopting folk culture--

As to the ancientness of melodies, folk melodies tend to be old, but not nearly as old as people want them to be--

Musicologists can "date" melodies simply by looking at the musical devices that are used and comparing them to the time that those devices were used in composition--

Londonderry Air or what ever you like to call it is a fairly sophisticated melody and probably hasn't been around much more than a century or two--


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk and Nationalism
From: Áine
Date: 22 Oct 99 - 01:38 PM

Dear Freddie,

Here's a good website for an explanation of the history of the Londonderry Air:

http://www.standingstones.com/dannyboy.html


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk and Nationalism
From: bseed(charleskratz)
Date: 22 Oct 99 - 01:58 PM

Hey, Fortunato--you're doing pretty well for being chained up and bricked into the niche in Montressor's catecomb for lo these hundreds of years. I guess having "A Song in Your Heart" really helps--or maybe it's that zen thing, huh?

And Freddie, I think "Lili Bolero" was a song composed for the movie "Lili," with Leslie Caron in the title role--the composer may have lifted a melody from Mozart.

And finally, jO, your mention of the E-D-C (III-II-I) opening for songs got me thinking of some of the tunes that start that way: "Red-Haired Boy ["Little Beggar Boy}," "Turkey in the Straw," "The Flowers of Edinburg," "The Maiden's Prayer," "The Big Rock Candy Mountain," and so on--that's a few minutes' play with the progression: I'll bet there are hundreds, thousands.

--seed


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk and Nationalism
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Oct 99 - 06:53 PM

M.Ted

here's how to make a blue clicky thing. I just learned it from a posting by Joe Offer on the Mudcat Jargon thread (so if something goes wrong with this here, that's where to look for the right way to do it:

Click here

But of course you stick the URL you want it to refer in place of "www.mudcat.org

And here's a song about it: Blue Clicky Thing

Nationalism in music - I think the trick is to find a way of keeping your own roots in some tradition, and be able to take things from other traditions, and import them, but without destroying whatever is special about that tradition. As witness the Irish Bouzouki - or for that matter, the Irish Banjo/concertina/accordion/harmonica/didgeridoo.

The same with the guitar in the hands of musicians in various parts of Africa. And then guitarists in oter parts of the world listen to that, and it feeds back into whatever tradition they come from. Or you could think of hundred of other examples.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk and Nationalism
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Oct 99 - 06:59 PM

As I thought. I can do a blue clicky thing, but if I try to describe it, it just comes through as a blue clicky thing, not a description of how to do one. As I said, g to the thread on "Mudcat jargon and inside jokes", and somewhere in there Joe Offer gives you the goods. (Ask "Find" to find "Blue Clicky Thing" and after three or four stops you get there)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk and Nationalism
From: Art Thieme
Date: 22 Oct 99 - 07:52 PM

De man piaba and de woman piab,
And the con-fu-sion makes me brain go round...

Yes, It's clear as mud--and it covers the ground!!

Art


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk and Nationalism
From: j0_77
Date: 22 Oct 99 - 10:23 PM

TG I am not the only one. Yup T it is ridiculus! I'd rather not get into Ethics on this one. It is an expresion of frustration.

Notice caller asks Max on Mudcat Radio for a "Local" tune and Max ain't got one? What now, there are no Localland resources on the world wide web! That is the whole point of Mudcat Radio. It is Global and the folk that it represents is Global, it's Folk.

I am happy not to have been walloped. Thankyou.
:0)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk and Nationalism
From: -gargoyle
Date: 22 Oct 99 - 10:36 PM

Dear J0....this is one of the more brillant threads I have seen...truthfully because so much of what I say is "miss-interpreted" and I am a "sarky" this is brillant!!!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk and Nationalism
From: katlaughing
Date: 23 Oct 99 - 04:11 AM

From the contemplator website: Lilli Berlero

According to legend this tune first appears in 1641 in Ulster. Richard Talbot (1630-1691), a Catholic and royalist, had been made Earl of Tyrconnel after the Restoration and King James II later appointed him Lord Lieutenant of Ireland (1686). He pursued strong pro-Catholic policies. Even after James was deposed in England Tyrconnel governed Ireland in James' name. Irish Catholic forces were eventually defeated by William. English and Irish Protestants took up the song as their melody during that time. According to one source the words "lillibulero" and "bullen al-a" were used as a rallying cry for the Irish to recognize one another in the uprising in 1641. Later (1687) Thomas, Lord Wharton (1640-1715), wrote a set of satirical verses titled Lillibolero regarding the Irish problems and set them to a melody arranged by Henry Purcell in 1678. Purcell's arrangement was based on an older tune under the name Quickstep which appeared in Robert Carr's Delightful Companion (1686). It became popular immediately. After the Stuarts were deposed Lord Wharton, a strong supporter of William III, boasted that he had "rhymed James out of three kingdoms" with his tune.*

However, Irish writer Brendan Behan claimed the words of the chorus were a corruption of the Gaelic: "An lili ba leir e, ba linn an la" - roughly "The lily won the day for us."** A forum post at Digital Tradition reveals that according to Sources of Irish Traditional Music (1998) it translates as: Lilli/ bu le'ir o/, bu linn an la/ - Lilli will be manifest, the day will be ours. William Lilly (1602-1681) was a famous astrologer who made predictions regarding British politics of the time. One prediction was the Prophecy of the White King (made in 1644 after Marston Moor), which predicted a King would be beheaded or killed. Lilly wrote a letter to Charles I warning him of the prophecy.

Anther theory, from Songs That Made History by H. E. Piggot,states the refrain from a popular Irish song when James II (a Roman Catholic) came to the the throne, had the Irish words, "Lere, lere, burlere." Lere meant religion or faith and burlere meant your faith. Piggot says a form of the tune was printed in 1661 in An Antidote against Melancholy which was set to words beginning There was an old man of Waltham Cross.

As Wharton wrote the lyrics (1687) long after the rallying cry was claimed to have been used (1641) it appears the rallying cry translation is a myth. Wharton probably used the Gaelic for the lilli reference because when he wrote it the Stuarts were still in power. Wharton had never publicly supported the Stuarts. In the House of Commons Wharton had supported the bill to bar James from the succession because of his Catholicism and when William won the war Wharton was given prominent posts. It appears it was a political satire first and then a rallying tune - and the translation of "Lilli will be manifest, the day will be ours" was possibly Wharton's intent.

John Gay used the tune in The Beggar's Opera. It was the British Broadcasting Corporation's signature theme during World War II.

"Brother Teague" was then the nickname of the Irishmen (as "John Bull" would later be for Englishmen).


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk and Nationalism
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Oct 99 - 04:49 AM

If you ever listen to the BBC World Service, Liliburlero is still the station signature tune. There's a lovely video clip they use for promioting the BBC with the Dalai Lama humminmg it appreciatively.

Less charming are the words of "The Protestant Boys", which go with it in Orange circles in Northern Ireland and Scotland -
"Slitter slaughter, holy water, scatter the Papishes every one
If that won't do, we'll cut them in two and send them to Hell, with the Orange and Blue" and so forth. So there are situations where you need to be careful with this tune, or you might get misunderstood.

Nationalism and folk music can be a dangerous mcombination.(And at the same time it's an example of how a good tune can move between enemies. Like that other Lili, Marlene.)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk and Nationalism
From: wildlone
Date: 23 Oct 99 - 12:10 PM

I think I have seen similar threads in the past but.
Music travels very well,Once every hall or grand house would have had musicians to entertain the lord and his guests.
The lord would get fed up if he heard the same things performed so new material was needed.
Itinerant groups of travellers went from place to place performing plays,songs and the like. you can soon see the singers/musicians getting together to exchange songs/music,[very much the way we do here at MC], and if you did not like the way it sounded you simply changed it, thus within a few years music could travel across continents. Now with modern technology everything is instant.
wildlone


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk and Nationalism
From: j0_77
Date: 23 Oct 99 - 01:13 PM

Thanks Gargoyle, I am honored to have been able to do so much. BTW What is 'sarky'.

Kat, how dusty is that book? Atichouuuueeee...


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk and Nationalism
From: wildlone
Date: 23 Oct 99 - 01:28 PM

j0 77 'sarky'is vulgar slang for sarcastic or for a person that uses sarcasm.
def A bitter or wounding remark. thats our boy.
I do hope that cleared that one up.wl.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk and Nationalism
From: j0_77
Date: 23 Oct 99 - 01:40 PM

Thankyou wildone -


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk and Nationalism
From: bseed(charleskratz)
Date: 23 Oct 99 - 03:42 PM

It seems to me if one is frequently "miss-interpreted" (sic), then that one probably ought to work a bit on his communication skills (that mountain ain't gonna move, so Mohammed's just gonna have to hoof it on over). --seed


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk and Nationalism
From: Freddie Fox
Date: 23 Oct 99 - 06:12 PM

Sorry, back to lili bulero - the tune used for the world service is actually Mozart - part of ones of his symphonies, but I can't remember which one!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk and Nationalism
From: bseed(charleskratz)
Date: 23 Oct 99 - 06:18 PM

Is this the same song that was popular in the fifties--"Laroo, laroo, lili-bolero"? Was that a ripoff of a traditional tune--and a parody of its lyrics? Looks like I may have stepped on my tongue above, as I have been known to do on occasion.

--seed


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk and Nationalism
From: Freddie Fox
Date: 23 Oct 99 - 06:25 PM

This is the thing, and we seem to have gone full circle. If the tune first appeared in 1641, then it must predate Mozart, and so he used the, by then, 'traditional' tune as part of one of his symphonies. [He's not alone in that - see Vaughan Williams, Holt, Debussy and others]. However, there is apparently a 'traditional' French folk song which used a tune by Mozart!!! Will try to dig it out when I can remember where I found, unless someone else beats me to it.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk and Nationalism
From: Frank Hamllton
Date: 24 Oct 99 - 04:06 PM

Lilibulero was used as a basis for parody by the early colonists as a protest song against England and King George. There's a book called "Songs That Changed The World". I've forgotten who wrote it. Was it Irwin Silber?

Frank Hamilton


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk and Nationalism
From: bseed(charleskratz)
Date: 24 Oct 99 - 05:30 PM

But is it the same song? --seed


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk and Nationalism
From: Art Thieme
Date: 24 Oct 99 - 08:44 PM

I've always felt that if hell had a religion, it'd be Nationalism.

Art


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk and Nationalism
From: rich r
Date: 24 Oct 99 - 11:35 PM

"Songs that Changed The World" si by Wanda Willson Whitman, 1969


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk and Nationalism
From: Mían
Date: 25 Oct 99 - 08:21 PM

I would say rather than anonymity, it is universality (did i spell that right?)or the universal language of a memorable piece that makes it loved...it strikes a universal chord.

Knowledge of the author(s) does not necessarily detract from the appeal of a tune, be it solo or co-operative. In fact, that knowledge sometimes adds to the appeal, does it not?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Folk and Nationalism
From: Frank Hamilton
Date: 26 Oct 99 - 03:54 PM

The song "Lillibulero" is not the same song as "Hi Lili Hi Low" from the Leslie Caron flick. There is also the antecedent of the labor union song, "Which Side Are You On" which is an old hymn entitled "Lay the Lilly-O".

Frank Hamilton


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate
  Share Thread:
More...

Reply to Thread
Subject:  Help
From:
Preview   Automatic Linebreaks   Make a link ("blue clicky")


Mudcat time: 10 December 11:20 AM EST

[ Home ]

All original material is copyright © 1998 by the Mudcat Café Music Foundation, Inc. All photos, music, images, etc. are copyright © by their rightful owners. Every effort is taken to attribute appropriate copyright to images, content, music, etc. We are not a copyright resource.