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Damned bloody depressing

Don Firth 05 Jul 12 - 01:26 AM
GUEST,josepp 05 Jul 12 - 12:31 AM
GUEST,josepp 04 Jul 12 - 11:36 PM
Don Firth 04 Jul 12 - 07:29 PM
GUEST,Allan Conn 04 Jul 12 - 02:53 AM
Rob Naylor 16 Jun 12 - 08:53 PM
johncharles 16 Jun 12 - 04:04 PM
GUEST,josepp 16 Jun 12 - 02:55 PM
Big Al Whittle 16 Jun 12 - 02:21 PM
GUEST,josepp 16 Jun 12 - 09:10 AM
Big Al Whittle 16 Jun 12 - 04:00 AM
Rob Naylor 15 Jun 12 - 10:06 PM
Don Firth 15 Jun 12 - 03:05 PM
GUEST,Howard Jones 15 Jun 12 - 07:44 AM
Tootler 15 Jun 12 - 06:09 AM
Tootler 15 Jun 12 - 06:04 AM
Big Al Whittle 15 Jun 12 - 03:52 AM
Bettynh 15 Jun 12 - 01:26 AM
Don Firth 15 Jun 12 - 01:11 AM
GUEST,josepp 14 Jun 12 - 10:07 PM
Don Firth 14 Jun 12 - 03:25 PM
Big Al Whittle 14 Jun 12 - 02:22 PM
Bettynh 14 Jun 12 - 11:27 AM
GUEST,Josepp 14 Jun 12 - 08:14 AM
Don Firth 14 Jun 12 - 02:32 AM
Big Al Whittle 14 Jun 12 - 02:23 AM
Stilly River Sage 13 Jun 12 - 11:52 PM
GUEST,josepp 13 Jun 12 - 11:50 PM
GUEST,josepp 13 Jun 12 - 11:43 PM
GUEST,josepp 13 Jun 12 - 11:20 PM
Stilly River Sage 13 Jun 12 - 07:26 PM
GUEST,johncharles 13 Jun 12 - 07:10 PM
GUEST,tony Rath aka Tonyteach 13 Jun 12 - 07:05 PM
Tootler 13 Jun 12 - 06:48 PM
Don Firth 13 Jun 12 - 06:39 PM
GUEST,josepp 13 Jun 12 - 05:40 PM
Don Firth 13 Jun 12 - 04:23 PM
Brian May 13 Jun 12 - 04:17 PM
Bettynh 13 Jun 12 - 04:08 PM
Larry The Radio Guy 13 Jun 12 - 03:58 PM
Big Al Whittle 13 Jun 12 - 03:25 PM
Will Fly 13 Jun 12 - 03:23 PM
Will Fly 13 Jun 12 - 03:05 PM
GUEST,josepp 13 Jun 12 - 02:45 PM
GUEST,josepp 13 Jun 12 - 02:13 PM
Will Fly 13 Jun 12 - 01:46 PM
GUEST 13 Jun 12 - 01:30 PM
Larry The Radio Guy 13 Jun 12 - 01:27 PM
GUEST,josepp 13 Jun 12 - 01:14 PM
Larry The Radio Guy 13 Jun 12 - 12:33 PM
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Subject: RE: Damned bloody depressing
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 Jul 12 - 01:26 AM

No serious takers, eh?

Hoppy's horse was named "Topper."

The editor of The Daily Planet, the newspaper that Clark Kent and Lois Lane worked for was Perry White.

And there is a little more to the relationship between the Lone Ranger and the Green Hornet than starting on the same station.

The Lone Ranger and the Green Hornet. First of all, John Reid, a Texas Ranger, became the Lone Ranger when he and five other Texas Rangers rode out to round up the infamous Cavandish Gang. The Cavandish Gang ambushed them and left all six of them for dead. But an Indian named Tonto happened on the scene of the carnage and found that one of the rangers, though badly wounded, was still alive. They talked matters over, and Tonto buried the five rangers and then dug a sixth grave and put a marker on it as well.

One of the dead rangers was Dan Reid, John Reid's brother. John Reid cut a piece of material from his dead brother's vest and made himself a "Domino Mask" from it.

The only one of the Texas Rangers to have survived the treacherous bushwhacking, John Reid was—the Lone Ranger.

After he had been nursed back to health by Tonto, he donned the mask to hide his true identity, and he and Tonto went after the Cavandish Gang—and successfully brought them to justice. Then, the two of them went on the fight for law and order in the early West.

Late in the radio series, the two were joined by the sixteen-year-old nephew of the Lone Ranger, Dan Reid, Jr., and had many adventures with his uncle and his faithful Indian companion.

When Britt Reid—the son of Dan Reid, Jr., and the Lone Ranger's great-nephew—becomes editor and publisher of the crime-fighting Daily Sentinel newspaper, emulating his great uncle, he adopted the secret masked man identity of the Green Hornet and fought crime, not only behind the editorial desk, but out there where it existed.

Initially, Kato, a martial arts expert and Britt Reid's chauffer, valet, and "houseboy", accompanied the Green Hornet in his crime fighting adventures. Kato started out as Japanese, but in when the Japanese invaded China in 1939 and relations between the United States and Japan deteriorated, Kato somehow strangely morphed into being Filipino.

So now you know.   

Is Batman really a "superhero?" No. Not in the idea that he, like other costumed and masked crime fighters, has superpowers. He doesn't. He is a normal human being, but through rigorous training became very athletic, managed to learn a number of exotic hand-to-hand combat methods. He's just very good at what he does, but he is not endowed with "superpowers" like the Marvel Comics stable of "Superheroes."

I'm talking here about the old Detective Comics Batman. The first Batman movie with Michael Keating was very well done, but I haven't actually followed some of the mythology that has been piled on by some of the more recent Batman movies. My info comes from Bob Kane's original conception of the character.

And my Shubb capo? How the hell did it get in the refrigerator!??

Don Firth

P. S. Since I was born shortly after the Big Bang, I used to listen to these programs. On the radio. You know, like television, only you had to make the pictures yourself, in your head. For reference material for anyone who wants to do some in depth reading on the subject—two paperback books I picked up some time in the Sixties, The Great Radio Heroes and All in Color for a Dime, about comic books.


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Subject: RE: Damned bloody depressing
From: GUEST,josepp
Date: 05 Jul 12 - 12:31 AM

[The following exchange is from Youtube. I am the OP and you can see what people responded. Some of these young people are wiser than many who didn't know anybody than to display their ignorance on this thread.]

Oh how spoiled I was in the 80s. I didn't like this song when it came out. Now after listening to all the worthless shit garbage fucking up the airwaves today, this sounds fantastic. I'd give anything to back to this level cuz it is just shit today.


You are such a close minded individual.


But I'm a close-minded individual with taste.

Someone said I was closed minded when I said Im 24 years old and love music from the 80s instead of today's music..

I was a hardcore punker in the 80s so I considered this song to be all wimped out although it was admittedly catchy. But if I heard a band do this today I'd think, "Say, they're pretty good! Better than the shit other bands are putting out." I didn't know how good I had it. I thought there would always be variety and integrity in music so I could be choosy. I don't know what the hell happened. It's just sickening though.

This may be my time and generation (22yo) but I completely agree. My family raised me on classics from the 60s, 70s, and 80s. I picked a few things up on my own in the 90s, but I have always thought the 80s styles were my cup of tea. (Of course, I'm talking about music... I don't think I'll be loading my hair with hair-spray.) It really upsets me where the artistic genres are going: movies, music, books, etc. It all seems to be dying.

The 90s was the last great decade for music and television. Both turned to shit about the same time. Both sacrificed quality to maximize profits. It upsets me that people have settled for this and don't see anything wrong with it. Maybe it's my punk training talking but our culture has been hijacked by corporate mediocrity.

Except scrubs and two and a half men ever other comedy show was shit , except friends that ended in 2004 but started 1994


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Subject: RE: Damned bloody depressing
From: GUEST,josepp
Date: 04 Jul 12 - 11:36 PM

/////How are the Lone Ranger and the Green Hornet related? They are, you know!/////

That's easy. Both started on WXYZ right here in Detroit.


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Subject: RE: Damned bloody depressing
From: Don Firth
Date: 04 Jul 12 - 07:29 PM

Okay, this'll take you back a notch.

What was the name of Hopalong Cassidy's horse?

What was the name of the editor of the newspaper that Clark Kent (Superman) worked for?

How are the Lone Ranger and the Green Hornet related? They are, you know!

Oh! This may offer a clue to that question. What was the Lone Ranger's real name? (Not the actor who played him on the radio, the Lone Ranger's real name? And for MANY extra points, how did he become "the Lone Ranger?")

Is Batman really a "superhero?"

And where the hell did I leave my brand new Shubb capo?

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: Damned bloody depressing
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 04 Jul 12 - 02:53 AM

Id doesn't seem very sensible or fair to berate youngsters for not knowing all the music of past decades etc. Heck the early 60s were 50 years ago! I suspect many of the folk who attended the Cavern to watch the Beatles would have had limited knowledge of what music was around in 1912 etc. I've got a 16 year old son who is really into music and a hell of a good guitarist and it is great watching him discover things even if some of it is stuff most people over 30 or 40 would know pretty well. Once he wants to listen to something he has all the facility to delve into it though. If he wants to listen to what an artist is like then he can log on to the on-line music service we subscibe too and the likelyhood is that many of the said artist's albums are there to download free of charge to him at the press of a button! Plus he can browse youtube to see what the artist is like. Let's get real these are brilliant facilities that we all would have lapped up. I had a 36 mile round trip to our nearest record shop and often came back with an album (which I'd spent a sizeable chunk of my teenage income on) which turned out to be not so great as I'd expected it to be!


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Subject: RE: Damned bloody depressing
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 16 Jun 12 - 08:53 PM

True, John...and what Josepp doesn't realise is that an awful lot of new indie music IS released on vinyl. All my children, and all their friends, have decks as well as digital devices. Normally if you buy a vinyl disk you get a digital download included in the price. And the vinyl does have artwork and sleeve notes, just as in the "old days".


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Subject: RE: Damned bloody depressing
From: johncharles
Date: 16 Jun 12 - 04:04 PM

what really depresses me is grumpy old men. John


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Subject: RE: Damned bloody depressing
From: GUEST,josepp
Date: 16 Jun 12 - 02:55 PM

I agree, Al, that the new technologies have played a role in the dumbing down. I do miss the days of 12-inch LPs. I mean I love the digital techonology and all that but all the fun has been taken out of record hunting. And, yes, a lot of kids, probably most, don't even buy CDs anymore--they just download them or get them from their friends. No record reviews, no liner notes, no nothing. Even with CDs, the liner note print is so damn small I can't even read it half the time.

I think it makes music appreciation classes all the more needed but I don't see it happening. Kids today can't even do math or science in this country.


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Subject: RE: Damned bloody depressing
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Jun 12 - 02:21 PM

I got a lot of my education in shops reading covers for LP records that I couldn't afford. Children today are disadvantaged in that respect. They can download it - in those days though, you had an authority telling you what was on offer nad how to look for it. Were you to ever get the chance to hear it!

You couldn't afford the music - but much more intoxicating were the words of pseudo intellectualism and intellectual snobbery. Ah! Those were the days......but to be young was very heaven!


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Subject: RE: Damned bloody depressing
From: GUEST,josepp
Date: 16 Jun 12 - 09:10 AM

Naylor doesn't get it but that's not surprising. I berated no one. My point is that younger people today are not being educated in music sppreciation today to the point that stuff that should be easily known by them is something they are not even aware of. The quiz was very general and an attempt to see if they were educated in music properly or by pop culture. Not many people would know Salieri taught Schubert but I was trying to see how many people really think he murdered Mozart because of the Amadeus movie. Some people here suspected it wasn't true and chose something else and that's all I was really looking for. But some respondents under 30 really do think Salieri confessed to killing Mozart (actually two thought it and the rest never answered it).

Beyond that question, none of the others should have been hard. Asking about diddley-bows is a bunch of diddley-shit. The questions were general and deal with our culture and therefore have some importance and should not have required any serious amount of study. No American under 30 should have any trouble knowing who wrote of the Gettysburg Address (although I assure you many Americans don't know). No American should have to admit to not knowing the first verse of the National Anthem but many don't. People today think culture is an island unconnected to what came before and with no concern of what is to come next.

I don't believe I should have stumped anyone by asking them to name a Holland-Dozier-Holland song but I did. I mean, christ, they wrote some of the most well-known music of the 20th century and we're already forgetting who they are. Do you really think most Americans have the tiniest interest in Beethoven or Bach when music written 40 years ago in their own country has already been forgotten?


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Subject: RE: Damned bloody depressing
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Jun 12 - 04:00 AM

To which I can only thumb my nose and 'awopbopalooma a wop bam boom!'

My turn.

What oats did Roy Roger's horse Trigger invariably turn his nose up at - and quite distinctly , on one occasion, say 'Nay!' - or it could have been, 'Neighhhh!'

Opinions were divided. but someone at Berkley has done a brilliant PhD thesis on this very subject.

Like many major controversies(including the one under discussion) there DOES seem to be no one final definitive answer that we can turn to, as the absolute truth on this vexed matter.

Sad, really.....


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Subject: RE: Damned bloody depressing
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 15 Jun 12 - 10:06 PM

I'm with Don here.

I'm into a wide variety of musical genres and regard myself as a "reasonably knowledgable layman". But when I was under 30, even though I was nearer to the eras severasl of the questions refer to than are today's under 30s, I would have had problems with some of them.

To berate youngsters for not knowing that "Bang A Gong" was originally a T Rex number is faintly ridiculous. As a 20 year old ~I had no idea that some of the songs recorded by rock or prog-rock bands were covers of old blues numbers.

I must have been 25 before I realised that "Crossroads" and "Going Up The Country" to name just 2 of many, weren't original to Cream and Canned Heat, and probably near 30 before I became aware that Barbara Ann was recorded by The Regents several years before The Beach Boys had success with it.

I also notice that the eras covered by Josepp's questionnaire essentially end in the mid-late 60s, so there's about a 45 year gap up to the modern day. Perhaps it says more about the biases in Josepp's own knowledge? Yes, a lot of modern music is crap, but so was a lot of the older stuff. In the 60s my own parents were aware of the "plastic" pop put out by bands like Freddie and The Dreamers and Herman's Hermits but blithely unaware of the more progressive or interesting stuff their kids were *actually* listening to. They'd never heard of Pink Floyd, The Nice or Fairport Convention at the time.

I suspect it's the same now. The "oldies" in my (and Josepp's) generation are aware through mainstream media of people like Justin Bieber, but some good stuff, put out by bands on their own labels, or on indie labels like Rough Trade or Unlabel (usually on vinyl as well as CD and download) passes almost all of us by.

Here's a couple for you Josepp, to be answered without looking them up:

- What bands did Katriona Gilmore and Jamie Roberts play for before concentrating on playing as a Duo?

- What other band does Katriona Gilmore currently play with in addition to the Gilmore-Roberts duo?

- What band does female violinist Geri Holton play with?

- What is Geri Holton's second instrument?

- What is the real name of British teenage blues artist/ Diddley Bow maker "BluesBeaten Redshaw"?


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Subject: RE: Damned bloody depressing
From: Don Firth
Date: 15 Jun 12 - 03:05 PM

By the way:   Ringo Starr's real name is Richard Starkey.

No, I didn't look it up. Didn't have to. I knew that pretty much from the first appearances of the Beatles in this country, on "The Ed Sullivan Show."

". . . We have a really big shoe for you tonight. . . ."

Sullivan also introduced This lad into an unsuspecting world.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: Damned bloody depressing
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 15 Jun 12 - 07:44 AM

I don't see why having a broad knowledge of a wide range of music is morally superior to having a detailed knowledge of a single genre. Actually, a lot of people I know who enjoy a wide range of music don't really listen to it. Again, is it better to enjoy a lot of music at a fairly superficial level, or to listen properly to a narrower range?

The truth is that none of it matters, because it's entirely a matter for the individual. Some people like music, some don't. Personally, I'm not greatly interested in the visual arts, which would no doubt horrify some art enthusiasts. People are different - thank god. Get over it.


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Subject: RE: Damned bloody depressing
From: Tootler
Date: 15 Jun 12 - 06:09 AM

I will say this for josepp. He doesn't do the classic troll trick of making a provocative statement and then, having stirred up a hornet's nest, runs. He stays to defend his corner.

I may not agree with him but I can respect that.


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Subject: RE: Damned bloody depressing
From: Tootler
Date: 15 Jun 12 - 06:04 AM

I'm starting to get back responses to my questionnaire and, sure enough, people under 30 have trouble with it. A European girl could answer most of the classical music questions including knowing her classical music eras. American kids? Forget it. etc, etc, etc.

As I said earlier, so what??

When I was in my twenties my musical horizons were also pretty narrow.

I discovered early music when I was in my late thirties as a result of taking up the recorder again when my kids started it at school and it is now one of my main (but not sole) musical interests.

Don Firth had it spot on.


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Subject: RE: Damned bloody depressing
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Jun 12 - 03:52 AM

Yeh I could answer all the questions, but I'm not sure if its Justin Beiber, or Justin Bieber, or be bop a lula, come to that.


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Subject: RE: Damned bloody depressing
From: Bettynh
Date: 15 Jun 12 - 01:26 AM

My kids (who are 30) know who Ringo Starr is - he's the conductor on "Shining Time Station" who introduces Thomas the Tank Engine animations. They don't know what his real name is, and really see no reference to music in the question. Actually, they were a bit old for Thomas when the series came out, so they think Ringo's pretty lame. My kids have heard Beatles' music, much as I heard big band - old folks play it all the time. Some of it they even like, but they're just now beginning to admit it.


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Subject: RE: Damned bloody depressing
From: Don Firth
Date: 15 Jun 12 - 01:11 AM

Well, actually, I'm not greatly surprised that people under 30 couldn't name these folks or were generally ignorant of what they did. I can't say that I found it depressing though. People that age are not necessarily stupid, it's just that they don't know a lot yet.

Hell's bells, at my advanced age, I've learned one helluva lot of stuff and could best nigh most anyone in "Trivia." But being generally fairly alert, I learn new stuff every day.

It's the human condition.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: Damned bloody depressing
From: GUEST,josepp
Date: 14 Jun 12 - 10:07 PM

I'm starting to get back responses to my questionnaire and, sure enough, people under 30 have trouble with it. A European girl could answer most of the classical music questions including knowing her classical music eras. American kids? Forget it.

None yet can name Pete Best or know Ringo's real name. Nearly everybody knows Mozart's full name and every single responder knows Yo-Yo Ma plays the cello. Everyone knows the Supremes recorded for Motown. No one could name a Miles Davis song or album. None heard of Doc Watson or knew that he had just died. None heard of T. Rex or could name a T. Rex song. One guy guessed that Coltrane played sax. None heard of Johnny Ace or Howlin' Wolf. One guy guessed Charley Patton but admitted he really didn't know who was the King of the Delta Bluesmen. One person believes that Salieri confessed to killing or trying to kill Mozart but he didn't elaborate. No one else even answered the question. None could name a Duke Ellington song but all had heard of him. None knew who Cole Porter was and so could not name any of his songs.

So that's where we're sitting so far. I'll give it to the end of the week and I'll post up the answers for their benefit. It should not have been a hard test if kids are taught music appreciation properly but I truly expected better than this. Now I know this is hardly all that conclusive but the pattern is there: older responders can answer most of them and the younger cannot so I think the results are accurate in a general sense. And that's not good.


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Subject: RE: Damned bloody depressing
From: Don Firth
Date: 14 Jun 12 - 03:25 PM

Theodore Bikel sang a concert here in 1962, during the Seattle World's Fair. Sang in Seattle's brand new 3,100 seat opera house. The following day, I, along with a couple of other of Seattle's "folkies," had a chance to sit and chat with him for a couple of hours. Very interesting man!

He commented during the concert that he was glad to get back to singing folk music concerts. He had created the role of Baron Von Trapp in "The Sound of Music" on Broadway, and he said it was a relief to get on the road again and escape from a routine of night after night with seven children and twenty nuns!

Last time I saw Bikel, he was in an episode of Star Trek: the Next Generation in which he played the human foster father of Lieutenant Worf, and a retired starship engineer.

####

There was quite a number of singers of folk songs extant before the "Great Folk Scare" of the Sixties. Cynthia Gooding died quite young in 1984, someone told me of ovarian cancer. And the "Great Folk Scare" completely bypassed Susan Reed for some reason. She ran an antique shop first in Greewich Village and then on Long Island.

By the way, josepp, I heard Lightnin' Hopkins live at the 1960 Berkeley Folk Festival, and wound up at a private after-concert party where he was jamming with a couple of other bluesmen from the Bay Area.

Does that count?

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: Damned bloody depressing
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Jun 12 - 02:22 PM

Theodore Bikel
The man they couldn't tickle
If you don't know him
You know very lickel.


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Subject: RE: Damned bloody depressing
From: Bettynh
Date: 14 Jun 12 - 11:27 AM

:::In sequence because often one tracks segues into another and shuffling breaks the continuity.:::

Yes, but if the collection is your selection in the first place, the continuity becomes YOUR BRAIN, not the selection of some other. I find the mix that I've come up with interesting, if only to show myself how weird I am, and to bring up music i enjoy but have forgotten I have.


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Subject: RE: Damned bloody depressing
From: GUEST,Josepp
Date: 14 Jun 12 - 08:14 AM

Yes, I know Theodore Bikel.


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Subject: RE: Damned bloody depressing
From: Don Firth
Date: 14 Jun 12 - 02:32 AM

Susan Reed and Cynthia Gooding were two "biggies" in the early days of serious interest in folk music in this country, before it hit the pop charts. They were well before Joan Baez and Judy Collins. This was also well before the Kingston Trio even met. The Rooftop Singers were one of the later groups.

Susan Reed. Sang in a lovely, sweet soprano, accompanying herself on either Irish harp or zither. Sang songs from America and the British Isles. She was in one movie in 1948, playing a young girl dragged up from the southern mountains to sing in a New York night club. Lousy movie, but beautiful singing by Susan Reed.

Cynthia Gooding. She sang folk songs in several languages in a rich, strong contralto. I first encountered her album of English folk songs, but later I learned that she knew songs in several languages. It was inevitable that she and Theordore Bikel would do an album together: "Young Man and a Maid."

You do know who Theodore Bikel is, don't you?

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: Damned bloody depressing
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Jun 12 - 02:23 AM

I'm still a bit confused as to what the bone of contention is...can someone enlighten me?


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Subject: RE: Damned bloody depressing
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 13 Jun 12 - 11:52 PM

Threads aren't the personal property of the person who started it. Never have been, never will be. You took a shot at starting a conversation, and if it's a reasonable premise, people will generally stick to the topic and it will flow. But this was a flawed premise and you're now going to waste a lot of time defending that original position.

For what it's worth. Dismissing the remarks of people who think you're a bit nuts is your prerogative.

SRS


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Subject: RE: Damned bloody depressing
From: GUEST,josepp
Date: 13 Jun 12 - 11:50 PM

/////Do you guys listen by the "album" (coherent recording of one group) or do you shuffle?/////

In sequence because often one tracks segues into another and shuffling breaks the continuity.


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Subject: RE: Damned bloody depressing
From: GUEST,josepp
Date: 13 Jun 12 - 11:43 PM

/////Apparently, when Johnny Ace was doing his thing, I was busily practicing my first guitar chords and learning songs out of A Treasury of Folk Songs by John and Sylvia Kolb and The American Songbag by Carl Sandburg, and from the records of Burl Ives, Richard Dyer-Bennet, Susan Reed, and Cynthia Gooding.

You've heard of them, josepp?////

Not Reed or Gooding. Then again, I might. My older brother was a folkie when I was just a tyke and I grew up hearing all kinds of folk stuff. My oldest sister too. It's a large universe. Someone here mentioned sea songs and chanteys, I have a lot of those too--Johnny Collins, A.L. Lloyd, John Townley, The Boarding Party, etc. So I'm still discovering the folk universe. Burl Ives was probably the first one I ever heard. I remember hearing "Blue Tail Fly" when I was very, very young. But I also remember the Rooftop Singers from around that same period.

//////Josepp - I have been teaching for 10 years - 100 percent pass mark for all exams across singing guitar and bass. I teach flamenco guitar - jazz and blues piano - singing - bass - acoustic and fingerstyle - flat picking = rock and blues guitar and musicianship. I am not employed by anyone so if people do not like me they vote with their feet - that to me is the acid test////

But if some kid wants to play blues guitar, do you teach him a bunch of Jimmy Page licks or do you teach him about, say, John Lee Hooker or Muddy Waters? Hopefully, the latter two. Not that there is anything wrong with Jimmy Page but if he wants to learn blues he needs to be learning about the men who founded it and made people like Page want to play it. Sure, teach him some Clapton stuff--nothing wrong with that--but he needs a real background in blues to understand blues. When I studied blues, I bought books and read articles on sharecropping. I felt that an understanding of blues required an understanding of the conditions that spawned it. It was eye-opening.

And while I am not totally opposed to teaching online, I am skeptical of its effectiveness. How does a student know when he is doing it right without a teacher right there to correct him? If he's having a problem executing, there's no teacher standing there to show him how to proceed. I've seen double bass lessons on youtube and they are worthless. You can't learn the bass that way. A real teacher is so critical that there is no point to learning without one. Guitar may not be quite that hard to learn but still...


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Subject: RE: Damned bloody depressing
From: GUEST,josepp
Date: 13 Jun 12 - 11:20 PM

Folks, if you don't like my thread, you're perfectly free to flee to another. If this is just so offensive to your oh-so-sensitive natures, go post on somebody's 90-year-old Uncle Fred in the hospital thread and have a ball. Or are "WE" finding this thread just a tad more interesting?


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Subject: RE: Damned bloody depressing
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 13 Jun 12 - 07:26 PM

I agree with Tootler.

josepp said I don't care about people who don't listen to music. It's people who listen to it but have no idea what constitutes good from bad--that one is as good as the other. If that makes me intolerant then I'm goddamn proud of it and if that makes me bitter at the world then you bet I am.

Probably should have stopped the thread right there. Clearly it isn't interested in sharing, it's about showing off and simultaneously dismissing personal tastes of others.

SRS


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Subject: RE: Damned bloody depressing
From: GUEST,johncharles
Date: 13 Jun 12 - 07:10 PM

josepp starts with I and moves to We. implying that I is somehow right.Democracy appears to have no place when it comes to music.
p.s. Will fly is the business, OK.


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Subject: RE: Damned bloody depressing
From: GUEST,tony Rath aka Tonyteach
Date: 13 Jun 12 - 07:05 PM

Josepp - I have been teaching for 10 years - 100 percent pass mark for all exams across singing guitar and bass. I teach flamenco guitar - jazz and blues piano - singing - bass - acoustic and fingerstyle - flat picking = rock and blues guitar and musicianship

I am not employed by anyone so if people do not like me they vote with their feet - that to me is the acid test


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Subject: RE: Damned bloody depressing
From: Tootler
Date: 13 Jun 12 - 06:48 PM

I looked through Josepp's quiz and thought "Yes, I can answer most of those questions".

Then I thought "So What?"

What I really find objectionable about the Josepp's original post and about his subsequent ones is his dictatorial attitude.

It's good to try and broaden youngsters musical horizons, but you can't bludgeon them into it. As the saying goes, You can lead a horse to water...


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Subject: RE: Damned bloody depressing
From: Don Firth
Date: 13 Jun 12 - 06:39 PM

When I was a kid taking in the Saturday matinees (double feature, newsreel, cartoon, previews of coming attractions, and the thirteen chapter serial—"The Masked Marvel," "The Mysterious Dr. Satan"), I saw a lot of Hollywood-style bio-pics such as "A Song to Remember" (Cornel Wilde as Chopin, Jose Iturbi doing the piano playing), "Song of Scheherazade" (Jean-Pierre Aumont as Rimsky-Korsakov), and the excellent "Tonight We Sing" with David Wayne as impresario Sol Hurok, with all sorts of great people playing earlier performers, such as Ezio Pinza as Russian basso Fyodor Chaliapin and Tamara Toumanova as Anna Pavlova).

I was exposed to some really great music when I was in my early teens, but it didn't take me long to figure out that, as entertaining as they were, these movies could hardly be relied on as authoritative biographies of the people being depicted.

I brought that early-learned awareness to "Amadeus," and indeed read up a bit on the lives of Mozart and Salieri before I saw the movie. So, although the movie was quite entertaining, I was aware that any similarity between what I saw on the screen and actual historical fact was purely coincidental.

Among my other studies at the U. of W. School of Music and Cornish was music history, which included much about the composers.

Apparently, when Johnny Ace was doing his thing, I was busily practicing my first guitar chords and learning songs out of A Treasury of Folk Songs by John and Sylvia Kolb and The American Songbag by Carl Sandburg, and from the records of Burl Ives, Richard Dyer-Bennet, Susan Reed, and Cynthia Gooding.

You've heard of them, josepp?

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: Damned bloody depressing
From: GUEST,josepp
Date: 13 Jun 12 - 05:40 PM

You don't have to like any of that stuff, Don. That has nothing to do with anything. I asked about T. Rex because "Bang a Gong" is extremely well-known song and has been redone countless times. I want to know how many kids today even know who did the original. Another example is "Coconut" by Harry Nilsson. Kids today know the song because Danni Minogue redid it some years ago. And one admitted to me that he had no idea there was a previous version. When I asked him if he ever heard of Harry Nilsson he shook his head.

Johnny Ace was the world's first rock and roll star. He was dead by the time Elvis started his career. He was also black with a huge audience of white fans--particularly females but a lot white kids liked him. He could croon sweet love ballads and belt out badass R&B with booming bass and drums. He was also a top-notch pianist and started off playing piano in the WDIA house band that was led by BB King. When BB left to record, Bobby "Blue" Bland took it over. When Bland got drafted, Johnny took over the band and hit it big but his career was over in only about two years. He killed himself Christmas Day in Houston in 1954 between two sold-out shows. No one really knows why. Believe it or not, David Alan Coe is a huge fan of Johnny Ace and said that for years he couldn't sing Johnny's last (posthumous) hit, "Pledging My Love" without choking up. I met a guy on Youtube who told me he and his buddies cried when the DJ on the car radio announced Johnny's death. Ace's career lasted as long as Buddy Holly's but we have to concede that Holly is remembered better because he was white.

And Antonio Salieri was the teacher of Franz Schubert. The movie forgot to mention that in its zeal to depict him as a talentless hack whose only thought was to destroy Mozart. Salieri was considered one of the finest composers in Vienna. He was quite brilliant and was famous for his comedic operas and was not the dour-faced character portrayed by F. Murray Abraham. He knew Mozart but there was no particular rivalry between them. Also in the movie, Handel's music is mentioned to Mozart whom he dismisses with "Nah, I don't like him." In fact, Mozart loved Handel's music and said so.

I tip my hat to guys like Kurt Cobain who popularized Leadbelly to young people after he covered "Where Did You Sleep Last Night". THAT is what people with influence today need to do. Introduce the young to what they missed. When Steve Vai tried out for Zappa's band, Zappa handed him a bunch of 45s of old doo-wop songs. He told Vai if he wanted to play with the Mothers, he had to know the basis of the Mothers' music--doo-wop. Vai hated doo-wop--or so he thought. He loves doo-wop now because Zappa taught him how to listen to it. It's an endless well-spring of ideas.

Yes, every generation has its own music but we don't need to teach this generation its own music. There's no point to teaching them what they already know. I'm just thankful that the old recordings are still around. No one taught me to listen to that stuff. I found it on my own but thank god there was still something to find.


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Subject: RE: Damned bloody depressing
From: Don Firth
Date: 13 Jun 12 - 04:23 PM

I had to ponder a bit about songs written by Duke Ellington and Cole Porter—plus a few others—as to who wrote what, and no, I don't know who Johnny Ace is. Very fuzzy about Howlin' Wolf. Heard more than I wanted of T. Rex when, in 1971, KISW-FM, a classical music radio station I was working for switched over to progressive rock, and for three months, I did a stint as a "rock-jock." Bailed out of that cacophony and possibly saved both my hearing and my sanity by getting a job at a station that played "elevator music" (i.e., "easy listening"). But after a few months of that snooze, I got a job at yet another classical music station.

Great job. I got to play some of the kind(s) of music I love (which, contrary to the idea of many who don't listen to "classical" music, is not just ONE KIND of music, but encompasses a wide variety under the loose and not necessarily accurate label, "classical"). I did a little news at the top of the hour, read a few commercials, and sat back with a cup of coffee and just listened. And they PAID ME QUITE WELL to do this!!

My musical tastes are quite broad. I performed traditional folk music for years in coffeehouses, in concerts and recitals, on television, and at folk festivals. And I have given occasional classical guitar recitals for the Seattle Classic Guitar Society.

I enjoy almost all kinds of music. I do not, however, listen to any of the "acne-rock" stations on the radio. Styles change every few months, often the same old stuff under a new and "hip" sounding moniker, all "disposable" music. In vogue for a few months or a year or two, then sinks from sight to be replaced by another musical fad. Most of them tend to be aesthetically shallow and uninteresting.

And the commercials these stations play! I refused to do "screamer" commercials when I was in radio and I hate them with a purple passion. Fortunately, the stations I worked for didn't call for them.

I taught music for many years:   private lessons in folk and/or classical guitar, and class lessons in folk guitar. My main idea in teaching was to give my students the technical skills to play the kind of music they wanted to play.

By the way, I have studied voice for several years with two different teachers, I took many years of classical guitar lessons, plus a couple of months of flamenco guitar lessons from one of the guitarists at the Spanish Village exhibit at the 1962 Seattle World's Fair. I also had two years of study at the University of Washington School of Music, another two years at the Cornish College of the Arts (a sort of conservatory), and private lessons in composition and arranging from Mildred Hunt Harris.

Oh, yes. I am also a season ticket holder to Seattle Opera.

So if I don't know who Johnny Ace is, and I'm a bit fuzzy about who among Duke Ellington, Billy Strayhorn, and Johnny Mercer held the pencil and who sat at the piano when they were assembling "Satin Doll," I hope that doesn't leave you TOO depressed, josepp. . . .

Don Firth

P. S. But all of my study and practice and performance of "serious music" does not prevent me from getting a big snort out of stuff like the parody of a Kenny Rogers song in which a guy has an automobile accident, and the chorus line goes, "You picked a fine time to leave me, loose wheel!"

P. P. S. By the way, if I were to do it all over again, I might take a somewhat different approach. I think I might strive to appeal more to Early Music enthusiasts. After all, I know a number of songs that go back many hundreds of years. Accompany myself on the lute or Baroque guitar for the first half of a concert, then do more recent, American folk songs, in the second half, accompanying with a modern classic guitar.

Jus' thinkin'.


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Subject: RE: Damned bloody depressing
From: Brian May
Date: 13 Jun 12 - 04:17 PM

I don't see that it matters one jot what music I like, it's my business. In fact I'm re-buying the stuff I played and listened to in the 60s and 70s (mainly).

If I WANTED to listen to the new stuff, I would. Each generation has 'their' music, so let the younger ones listen to what I prefer not to hear.

If you are that eclectic then good for you - but being 'depressed' by what others are happy with is really my wife's territory (she's a psychotherapist and can help disturbed people).

I find very little attraction in the newer music I hear, I am missing absolutely loads and I couldn't give a monkey's.


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Subject: RE: Damned bloody depressing
From: Bettynh
Date: 13 Jun 12 - 04:08 PM

This thread has made me think about the music I prefer to listen to. I know the Ipod has had a huge influence recently - I can almost instantly find and listen to any sounds that I want to, and the things I want to hear surprise me. Echoes of my childhood (50s pop, occasionally 40s big band - from AM radio when I was a kid??), echoes of my childrens' childhood (lots of road trips and I worked HARD to find tapes we all could listen to), music from my young adult life (60s and 70s, a great era for all sorts of things) and some music I've found here on Mudcat (how could I have missed Art Thieme?) all come into it. I learned to hear modern jazz while rocking babies to late night radio, but there's certainly not much on my Ipod. My kids bring me music now, and some of it is great - William Elliott Whittemore, Great Big Sea, the Wiyos, Natalie McMaster, Michael Franti, Rani Arbo and Daisy Mahem, Gogol Bordello, among others - the kids know my tastes, but they bought it first.

The things that surprise me are: Robert Frost reading his poems, Julie Harris reading Emily Dickinson, Frank Crummit singing "The Prune Song," a proper rendering of "Nola" on piano (that took lots of browsing, I settled on Mark Tavener's version), and most recently, Beethoven's 9th conducted by Leonard Bernstein. Also the original 3 Hitchhiker's Guides, Richard Feynman telling about Los Alamos, and a reading of "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance."

I rarely listen to a whole album anymore, but just let itunes shuffle it all up. I do edit occasionally to remove introductions, long unbroken tracks (I know they can be edited, but I haven't got there yet) and whatever doesn't suit today's mood. Do you guys listen by the "album" (coherent recording of one group) or do you shuffle?

If you shuffle, what are the next five tracks to hear? Mine are:
The Honeydipper, Gamble Rogers
Sometimes, Michael Franti
Matinicus, Bok, Trickett, Muir
Every Living Thing, Four Bitchin' Babes
All of Me, Billie Holiday


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Subject: RE: Damned bloody depressing
From: Larry The Radio Guy
Date: 13 Jun 12 - 03:58 PM

What Will seems to do is very consistent with the best psychological/educational research for helping people to make changes. You start from where the client/student is at! And you help them create a curiosity and a sense of "discrepancy" between where they are at now and where they would like to be....then you are assisting them in guiding them toward their own goals.

It's not effective to suggest to a student that their own interests or taste is inadequate.

While I suspect that Josepp is an excellent musician with taste in music that is very similar to mine...and I respect his right to his opinions.....he is making a choice. (Back to the theme of the thread, Big Al) to stay in the 'damned bloody depressing' way of thinking and to stay frustrated about how rigid and non-exploratory people are about music.

My own choice (and it's a choice that seems to have worked well for Will Fly) is to try to do something about it in a way that is effective.   And Will is demonstrating that it works to come from the place where the student is......and motivate them to move further because they want to.

Josepp is making a different choice....and that's fine.


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Subject: RE: Damned bloody depressing
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Jun 12 - 03:25 PM

I've forgotten what this thread was about.

Don't be nasty to Will though - he's allright.


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Subject: RE: Damned bloody depressing
From: Will Fly
Date: 13 Jun 12 - 03:23 PM

Oh - and here's a little postscript about showing people new stuff that they hadn't heard before. Comments on YouTube videos:

Wonderful Tune. Where did you dig all these fabolous songs from? Thank you for the tab again.

I learning some thing new about these great old songs, Thank u Will!

Thank you, Will. I'd never heard this one. I was surprised to find several vocal recordings of it on YouTube, including this nice one by Marion Harris: /watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&­v=r2bUjmYqpec

This is really infectious after one or two listens. I very much enjoyed your playing. You do a terrrific version for solo guitar. Out of curiousity I searched and found the Charlie Byrd version and as you say it's "wonderful" I also liked the Sidney Bechet's rendition. Many thanks for sharing these old standards with people like me who may never have heard them before.


These comments are from just 2 recent videos. The only thing that's "Damned bloody depressing" about this thread is your attitude.


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Subject: RE: Damned bloody depressing
From: Will Fly
Date: 13 Jun 12 - 03:05 PM

They have the Will Fly attitude

If you want to know what my attitude is, Josepp, go to my website or to my YouTube channel. Here's the YouTube blurb:

After 40+ years of playing, my purpose on YouTube is - among other things - to help others to play guitar. I create simple acoustic guitar demonstration numbers - played fingerstyle - and also easy-to-use guitar instructional videos. I play some electric blues, and acoustic traditional music on tenor banjo, mandolin and mountain dulcimer.

You'll also find a large and ever-growing set of tabs/music sheets, written by me, which are freely available from my website plus free, downloadable audio files of many of the video soundtracks.


And here's the blurb from my website:

I started playing piano and blues harp as a teenager, and bought my first guitar in 1964. Over the years I've added tenor banjo, bass, mandolin and tenor guitar to my instrument collection. I've been a professional and semi-professional musician for over 40 years and now live in the county of Sussex in England.

When I started playing, all those years ago, I had the good fortune to play with and learn from some great musicians who took the time and patience to help me along the road. A few years ago I decided it was time for me to pass on what I've picked up over the years to new generations of players. You'll find a wide variety of music, chord and tabs on my site - all freely downloadable - relating to over 300 videos on YouTube. I hope you find something to interest you...


I have helped hundreds of budding guitarists over many, many years. My YouTube channel currently has over 5,600 subscribers and over 5,000,000 video views. Now, whether my stuff is any good or not - or whether you personally like it or not (which matters not a jot to me) - it should be plain to you that I care passionately about passing on my knowledge, such as it is, to other people. My website has around 200 PDF documents of music, chord and tablature - all created by me - freely available for anyone to download and use as they feel fit.

And yet I repeat to you that it is NOT my business to tell other people what they should or shouldn't like - or to act as some superior god and make pronouncements on other peoples' tastes. Neither is it my job to make irritable, bad-mouthed judgements on the likes and dislikes of others - which it what you seem to enjoy doing.


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Subject: RE: Damned bloody depressing
From: GUEST,josepp
Date: 13 Jun 12 - 02:45 PM

////I make my living by playing and singing and teaching////

So does my bass instructor and he says that I am BY FAR his most musically astute student. He can mention any artist or song and I know it. Usually, I have that song and that artist somewhere in my collection. Although he's teaching me double bass, I have played bass guitar for decades. When I played one his bass guitars, he was impressed that I had my own style but that he could hear so many other bass guitarists in my style. He complained that too many bass guitarists today sound like Jaco Pastorius. Now there's nothing wrong with Jaco but there's more to bass guitar than him. When I look for an influence to improvise my way through a passage, I have so many to choose from because I've listened to so many. These other guys have only Jaco to reference so guess who they sound like?

So I hope as a teacher, you are teaching your students songs and techniques by people other than the ones they listen to. It's YOUR job as a teacher to make them aware of new things. If you don't do that then, sorry, you're not teaching.

No, you don't tell them that what they like is bad. Who does that? But you open them up, expose them to more than they were ever aware of. Otherwise, they are not learning anything.

Frankly, I'm afraid Americans don't do that anymore. They have the Will Fly attitude: "Oh, just let them listen to whatever they want. It's not my job to teach them anything about music." Fine attitude for a teacher but it's not surprising.


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Subject: RE: Damned bloody depressing
From: GUEST,josepp
Date: 13 Jun 12 - 02:13 PM

////What's the pass mark? I think I got them all except #24.   I know in the play Amadeus there is the implication that Salieri murded Mozart. I suspect that's false.   I'd probably choose "D".////

We'll see if someone gets it but I hope they remember not to look it up. Yes, I included the question to see who is educated by pop culture rather than by proper sources.

/////Thanks Josepp. That was a fun quiz.////

It should be fun. Shouldn't be hard at all.


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Subject: RE: Damned bloody depressing
From: Will Fly
Date: 13 Jun 12 - 01:46 PM

Indeed, GUEST. When I taught regularly (and I only teach occasionally these days), I always asked the pupil what he/she wanted to learn and play. It mattered not one jot what the answer was - whether I liked it or not was irrelevant - as long as what they did improved their playing, and as long as the lessons fuelled their enthusiasm for music.


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Subject: RE: Damned bloody depressing
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Jun 12 - 01:30 PM

I find the original post rather judgmental in sweeping statements about music. You either like something or you don't. I make my living by playing and singing and teaching

I simply cannot afford to say to pupils "no thats bad music you cannot play/sing that" result poverty and no food on the table It would be very arrogant of me to be critical of their choices -my business is to make them achieve their goals not be negative

I think with Justin its a case of Bieber Las Vegas


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Subject: RE: Damned bloody depressing
From: Larry The Radio Guy
Date: 13 Jun 12 - 01:27 PM

What's the pass mark? I think I got them all except #24.   I know in the play Amadeus there is the implication that Salieri murded Mozart. I suspect that's false.   I'd probably choose "D".

Thanks Josepp. That was a fun quiz.


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Subject: RE: Damned bloody depressing
From: GUEST,josepp
Date: 13 Jun 12 - 01:14 PM

I don't care about people who don't listen to music. It's people who listen to it but have no idea what constitutes good from bad--that one is as good as the other. If that makes me intolerant then I'm goddamn proud of it and if that makes me bitter at the world then you bet I am.

I made a little survery and have posted at various websites. No trick questions, just very basic stuff. This is the type of info anyone should have in their heads and should be able to dash it off. These questions should be EASILY answerable.

Gender:

Age:

What other recording artists do you listen to on a constant basis?

Without consulting any sources, answer the following questions (if you don't know the answer, go with your first impression):

1.        Do you know who Miles Davis is? (Simply answer yes or no)

2.        Can you name a Miles Davis number or album?

3.        Do you know who Doc Watson is?

4.        Was Doc Watson in the news lately and, if so, why?

5.        Do you know who Duke Ellington is?

6.        Can you name a Duke Ellington song?

7.        Do you know who Johnny Ace is?

8.        Do you know who Howlin' Wolf is?

9.        Who was the driving force behind the band T. Rex?

10.        Name a T. Rex song:

11.        Complete the following sentence: John Coltrane played the ____________.

12.        Who was the Beatles' drummer before Ringo Starr?

13.        Ringo Starr's real name is:

14.        The Supremes recorded for what label?

15.        Do you know who Big Joe Turner is?

16.        Name a Big Joe Turner song:

17.        Complete the following sentence: Johan Sebastian Bach was a classical composer during the ________ period.

18.        Name an early form of European liturgical music:

19.        Name a Holland-Dozier-Holland song:

20.        Richard Strauss composed which piece? A. Blue Danube, B. Dance of the Sugar Plum Fairy, C. Rite of Spring, D. Also Sprach Zarathustra, E. None of the above, F. All of the above

21.        Name a Cole Porter song:

22.        Complete the following sentence: Yo-Yo Ma plays the ________.

23.        What is "the Carter lick"?

24.        Antonio Salieri is important because: A. He invented many of the principles of modern music theory, B. He was the teacher of Franz Schubert, C. He murdered Mozart, D. He wrote many pieces for the pipe organ.

25.        What was Mozart's full name?

26.        Beethoven's teacher was: A. Johan Bach, B. George Frideric Handel, C. Antonio Salieri, D. Josef Haydn, E. None of the above.

27.        Beethoven is credited with starting what period of classical music?

28.        Name a Scott Joplin piece:

29.        Most of Joplin's pieces were written in which decade? A. 1890-1900, B. 1900-1910, C. 1910-1920, D. 1920-1930.

30.        Who was "the King of the Mississippi Delta Bluesmen": A. Charley Patton, B. Blind Willie McTell, C. Lightnin' Hopkins, D. Mississippi Fred McDowell.


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Subject: RE: Damned bloody depressing
From: Larry The Radio Guy
Date: 13 Jun 12 - 12:33 PM

I basically agree with Will Fly

But I do have a lot of fun throwing interesting and different songs onto the Music Share facebook site.....where a lot of young people who are often just 'acquaintances of acquaintances'.....just to see if anybody will bite.   Occasionally they do listen to the song and make an interesting comment.   Then I feel gratified that I've contributed to the expansion of people's tastes....which, I view, as one of my many duties in life.

But I have no problem with the majority who indicate no interest whatsoever in my own eclectic tastes.   People grow in their own way, in their own time.   Even Josepp. Maybe some element of the message of respect and tolerance might grab him!


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