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BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?

Ed T 29 Jan 12 - 09:36 AM
Greg F. 29 Jan 12 - 09:37 AM
Silas 29 Jan 12 - 09:41 AM
bobad 29 Jan 12 - 09:58 AM
Little Hawk 29 Jan 12 - 10:04 AM
Ed T 29 Jan 12 - 10:05 AM
Little Hawk 29 Jan 12 - 10:34 AM
Ed T 29 Jan 12 - 12:09 PM
EBarnacle 29 Jan 12 - 12:22 PM
Greg F. 29 Jan 12 - 01:42 PM
MarkS 29 Jan 12 - 02:07 PM
artbrooks 29 Jan 12 - 02:09 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 29 Jan 12 - 03:45 PM
artbrooks 29 Jan 12 - 04:00 PM
Paul Burke 29 Jan 12 - 04:08 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 29 Jan 12 - 04:29 PM
Ed T 29 Jan 12 - 04:34 PM
Little Hawk 29 Jan 12 - 10:08 PM
akenaton 30 Jan 12 - 04:09 AM
Ed T 30 Jan 12 - 07:20 AM
Ed T 30 Jan 12 - 07:28 AM
kendall 30 Jan 12 - 08:06 AM
artbrooks 30 Jan 12 - 08:55 AM
Silas 30 Jan 12 - 08:59 AM
pdq 30 Jan 12 - 09:10 AM
Silas 30 Jan 12 - 09:24 AM
EBarnacle 30 Jan 12 - 09:43 AM
Ed T 30 Jan 12 - 11:44 AM
Ed T 30 Jan 12 - 11:53 AM
Ed T 30 Jan 12 - 11:59 AM
GUEST,C. Ham 30 Jan 12 - 02:39 PM
kendall 30 Jan 12 - 02:44 PM
kendall 30 Jan 12 - 02:49 PM
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Subject: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: Ed T
Date: 29 Jan 12 - 09:36 AM

TYhere have been plenty of Middle East related threads to put this article under. But, I decided, right or wrong, it is now important enough for it's own place (as could not found a direct thread).

I found this article well researched, thought out, and presented. While some put this issue/discussion on the side burner, the article leads me to believe it may be the news maker of 2012.

Will Israel Attack Iran?


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 Jan 12 - 09:37 AM

Only if the U.S. backs the move.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: Silas
Date: 29 Jan 12 - 09:41 AM

"Only if the U.S. backs the move."

Hardly. The US will back ANYTHING that Israel does.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: bobad
Date: 29 Jan 12 - 09:58 AM

"Hardly. The US will back ANYTHING that Israel does."

And this really seems to rankle the haters of Israel who would like to see it wiped off the map.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Jan 12 - 10:04 AM

Here's another recent article on the same subject.

The Likelihood of attack on Iran in 2012


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: Ed T
Date: 29 Jan 12 - 10:05 AM

Itteresting quotes from the article I posted:


Hadden (USA): "I don't know what the significance of American aid is for you."

Amit(Israel): "It isn't aid for us, it is for yourselves."


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Jan 12 - 10:34 AM

That's an interesting, and I think an utterly fallacious viewpoint...but it must play great in Israel. It is themselves the Israelis are thinking about, but they may have a messianic enough belief in their own God-given importance that they imagine they're doing it for the entire world.

And you might say that about the Iranian leaders too. It's a case of grandiosity and megalomania on both sides as far as I'm concerned.

The Iranian regime, however, is the one who is really being threatened with being "wiped off the map" by 2 great nuclear powers...and repeatedly so. And who publicly questions or upbraids those 2 great nuclear powers for making such death threats?

To put it more pointedly: Who dares to?


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: Ed T
Date: 29 Jan 12 - 12:09 PM

""That's an interesting, and I think an utterly fallacious viewpoint""

It entirely depends on from how (the perspective) you view the quote in the article and the siuation. It does not seem anywhere like an "utterly false" perspective to me.

I suspect the meaning of the quote (from the discussion) had little to do with upholding the interests of the World, but more to do with supporting the interests of the USA (thay can differ).

A main interest of the USA has been financial, stable oil supplies and prices. The other interest, which has evolved, is keeping anti USA regimes at bay (Iran is clearly one), or cutting them down. Like it or not, Israel has been the closest and most stable USA ally in that region,with military and intelligence capacity they can mostly count on. So, keeping Israel in place and militarily strong has been a USA interest (they receive much aid). One can argue that this has not been an effective or the correct approach, but, regardless, it has indeed been an approach in the region.

Who has the "right" to be the most fearful and to take measures to defend (even proactively) their interests, Iran or Israel? I suspect both have a valid point and that is a main reasoon for the situation. Both feel increasingly sourrounded by unfriendly forces,fear for the future and act accordingly. I suspect that either country, with the support of some other nations, would prefer (for a variety of their own reasons) the the other would "dissapear".

What is clear to me is that both Iran and Israel have the most to loose from an direct conflict. While other countries may feel they have a stake in the matter and something potentially to loose (thus their actions), they have less to loose than the people of these two nations.

If there were no oil in the region, I wonder if the potential conflict would be treated more like the world deals with such matters in neighbouring African nations, with no such oil reserves?


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: EBarnacle
Date: 29 Jan 12 - 12:22 PM

A neglected factor is that Iran's current regime has repeatedly stated that it intends to wipe Israel out. The means to do so will exist very soon. The conclusion of the article is that regime change is the only long term non-military solution. This is worth considering. As is stated at several points in the article, the genie is out of the bottle. Iran posssesses the knowledge base and the dispersion to resume their program after an attack and go back to designing and building nuclear arms.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 Jan 12 - 01:42 PM

And this really seems to rankle the haters of Israel who would like to see it wiped off the map

No, it rankles those who object to those who would apologize for and excuse any and all atrocities the State of Israel cares to commit for any reason whatsoever.

And before you bring up the anti-Semitic shibboleth, anti-Zionism and its imperial policies is not anti-Semitism.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: MarkS
Date: 29 Jan 12 - 02:07 PM

Very likely after Iran nukes Israel.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: artbrooks
Date: 29 Jan 12 - 02:09 PM

Does anyone really think Israel has nuclear weapons? Based on exactly what proof? Greatest ever deterrent - based upon a myth.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 29 Jan 12 - 03:45 PM

Little Hawk- "Who dares to?" Some truth to that!
Too many people excuse the bullying and agressive takeover policies of Israel.

Zionist policies of Israel guarantee continued resentment of others, both Christian and Muslim, as they insist that your land is my land, and hold sole ownership of the nuclear threat in the region.

I cannot understand the support Israel gets from the U.S. and most European governments.

Digression-
Oil from Iran and other Middle Eastern countries, except Saudi Arabia, ceased to be of any importance to the United States long ago.
Canada and Mexico are the other major sources of U.S. petroleum imports. (One might add Nigeria, if their country doesn't end up in a civil war between the Christian south and the conservative Muslin north. Another Sudan situation, only more explosive.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: artbrooks
Date: 29 Jan 12 - 04:00 PM

"sole ownership of the nuclear threat in the region"? Have you heard of Pakistan? It borders Iran and sits at the mouth of the Persian Gulf. And it really does have nukes.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 29 Jan 12 - 04:08 PM

Oi! Mordechai Vanunu. No, Israel has no nuclear weapons, and it needs to hide the fact that it has no nuclear weapons, which unlike Iran makes it immune from inspection, and it (mercifully unsuccessfully) advised apartheid South Africa how not to have nuclear weapons too.

USA policy is made by a few religious nutcases in Israel, Iranian policy is made by a few religious nutcases in Qom, and British policy is made in Washington. Usually by a few religious nutcases, but we've been spared a bit of that because the current top dog is only mildly nutty. And of course we've got our own homebrewed religious nutcases (see John Sentanamu).


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 29 Jan 12 - 04:29 PM

Yes, there is a Pakistan, but it is more interested in the Kashmir region and the duel here is with India.

Israel first built a nuclear weapon in the 1960s, but the Israelis maintained a policy of "ambiguity". One of their nuclear technicians told the British press details in 1986.

Israel refused to sign the Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty (along with India and Pakistan, and North Korea.

It is believed that Israel has 75, but some estimates are as high as 400, nuclear warheads (various articles, Federation of American Scientists).


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: Ed T
Date: 29 Jan 12 - 04:34 PM

""Oil from Iran and other Middle Eastern countries, except Saudi Arabia, ceased to be of any importance to the United States long ago"".

Maybe you can persuade the USA policy folks of that?
Good luck :)

When one interest squeezes on the oil balloon in one location, it has a global impact, and the impact pops out all over the place (consumers often see it reflected as price increases), whether it makes sense or not. Maybe the USA could bomb the oil speculators (on second thought, it may only strike too close to home)


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Jan 12 - 10:08 PM

Artbrooks, virtually everyone in the world believes that Israel has nuclear weapons...many nuclear weapons...including highly placed people in the Israeli government and military. That does not strike me as a myth. Israel's refusal to sign the Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty was well calculated on their part, allowing them to pursue a "don't ask - don't tell" policy, but fairly recent statements by some of their own government people have tacitly (though not openly) admitted to the fact that they do have those weapons. It's asinine to assert that it's a myth, in my opinion.

The only thing in the world that can possibly prevent Israel and the USA from attacking Iran whenever they finally decide to (aside from a sudden onset of sanity)....would be the open possession of a number of nukes and effective delivery systems for same by the Iranians. Therefore, I expect that Iran WILL move heaven and earth to acquire some nukes by any means possible, because without them they are f*cked, to put it bluntly. And they know it.

If they were to use them FIRST, they'd be even more f*cked...and they know that too. End of story.

They need nukes for the same reason Pakistan needed nukes...they have an enemy far more powerful than themselves! In Pakistan's case, the enemy is India. In Iran's case it is the USA/UK/Israeli Axis.

The Iranians, Americans, and Israelis all suffer from the same psychological disease: they cannot let go of or forgive what happened in the past. They still want to get even for what happened in the past. And that is why they are all three drifting toward a totally unnecessary and potentially disastrous war. Iran would suffer the worst in that war...but all will suffer greatly.

And for nothing.

The ultimate result of that war may well be the destruction of both the present Iranian regime and the present Zionist regime in Israel...the latter more slowly, because of the inevitable reactions and repercussions that the war will bring upon them in time.

Extreme paranoids with a pension for violence have a way of accumulating enemies...many enemies...bitter enemies...and finally too many such enemies to handle. That's what happened to the Germans in WWII. It can happen to Israel too. It can even happen to the USA. It just takes time, that's all.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Jan 12 - 04:09 AM

If Western culture is to survive, there has to be a showdown between the "cowboys" and the "indians"

I dislike the mantra of fundamentalist Islam almost as much as I dislike Western consumerist culture, but if we weigh things on the survival of humanity and the well being of the planet what side would we be on?

Western society is in terminal decline, as has befallen most powerful empires in history....perhaps Islam will save our descendents from the degradation of Rome.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: Ed T
Date: 30 Jan 12 - 07:20 AM

An odd story?

?


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: Ed T
Date: 30 Jan 12 - 07:28 AM

Jimmy Carter said it (Israel and nukes).


Carter


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: kendall
Date: 30 Jan 12 - 08:06 AM

Last evening on the CBS program, 60 Minutes, Leon Pinetta, secretary of defense, when asked if we would take military action against Iran, he stated "Nothing is off the table." "We will not allow them to make a nuclear bomb".

I know they are a threat to Israel, or even our own ships in the Persian Gulf, but where do we get the right to forbid them having what so many other countries have, especially their enemy, Israel?


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: artbrooks
Date: 30 Jan 12 - 08:55 AM

Some politician said, "trust, but verify". Personally, I don't trust unless I can verify, and the 'fact' that "virtually everyone in the world believes that Israel has nuclear weapons" means exactly nothing to me. Where is the data? When were the devices tested? In 1979 in the Indian Ocean? Prove it. IMHO, the best way for the Israelis to perpetuate this belief is to refuse to sign the Non-proliferation Treaty. Understand, I'm not saying that they do or don't have them, just that there is exactly no firm data one way or the other.

As to the basic question of will Israel attack Iran?   Israel's record over the past fifty years clearly indicates that they will not hesitate to do so if they believe an actual threat exists, and I see no reason why that should change. Given the current state of military technology, there is no reason at all that such a strike should involve nuclear weapons, and every reason to think that it can and would be very narrowly targeted.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: Silas
Date: 30 Jan 12 - 08:59 AM

Kendall, I agree with you.







Now that must be a first!!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: pdq
Date: 30 Jan 12 - 09:10 AM

Iran is a signatory to the nuclear non-proliferation treaty. They signed a binding international agreement never to acquire nukes. We are going to enforce that agreement.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: Silas
Date: 30 Jan 12 - 09:24 AM

"We are going to enforce that agreement."

Oh yea. Good old USofA. Putting the world to rights again

Tell you what matey, get your own house in order first eh?


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: EBarnacle
Date: 30 Jan 12 - 09:43 AM

LH, even paranoids have enemies. Tell us, which side/countries have repeatedly vowed the destruction of the others?


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: Ed T
Date: 30 Jan 12 - 11:44 AM

From Huff Post Media:

New York Times Hypes Israeli Attack On Iran


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: Ed T
Date: 30 Jan 12 - 11:53 AM

Another perspective


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: Ed T
Date: 30 Jan 12 - 11:59 AM

Another interesting article, with no reference to Israel:)
Is a US-Iran maritime clash inevitable?


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: GUEST,C. Ham
Date: 30 Jan 12 - 02:39 PM

Barry Rubin is one of the most respected policy analysts in Israel. He explains why neither Israel or the United States will attack Iran.

Barry Rubin on Israel and Iran


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: kendall
Date: 30 Jan 12 - 02:44 PM

I wonder if someone has already attacked Iran. Mysterious explosions, assassinated nuclear scientists, hacked computers vital to their project? Accidents?


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: kendall
Date: 30 Jan 12 - 02:49 PM

Would they dare to mine the channel? Would they get away with sinking a few ships in the channel?
Surely they know better than to try a frontal assault. The way China is progressing they just might like to have a parking lot in their back yard!


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: Ed T
Date: 31 Jan 12 - 11:02 AM

A reasoned perspective:
Zbigniew Brzezinski on Iran, 2010


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: pdq
Date: 31 Jan 12 - 01:38 PM

The Jimmy Carter foreign policy era was the worst in U.S. history and Zbigniew Brzezinski was the chief architect of that dreadful failed policy. His work lead to the establishment of the IslamoFacist state that Iran has became. He is a jackass.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: Greg F.
Date: 31 Jan 12 - 04:18 PM

As opposed to the Judeao-Fascist state Israel has become?


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: bobad
Date: 31 Jan 12 - 06:29 PM

Oy, such a Judeao(sic)-Fascist state that the majority of Israeli-Arabs choose Israel over a Palestinian state.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: Janie
Date: 31 Jan 12 - 09:57 PM

What I am hearing on NPR is that USA officials are having nightmares worrying that Israel might, and also hearing on same station from Israeli commentators there are many distasteful (to the Israeli government) but real constraints that might prevent or restrain the Israeli government from doing so.

Let us hope.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 31 Jan 12 - 10:10 PM

And let us also hope that Iran never gets the bomb.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: number 6
Date: 31 Jan 12 - 10:46 PM

from Der Spiegel (11/08/11)

Former Mossad Chief Seeks to Avert Israeli Attack

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Jan 12 - 11:58 PM

The answer to the question is "Yes"
adrien(beer)


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: Janie
Date: 01 Feb 12 - 12:08 AM

A crystal ball would be nice to have, right about now.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 01 Feb 12 - 01:58 AM

Looking back in Mudcat, I notice that a few people here just a few years back were saying Iran wasn't building a bomb.

SURPRISE!

For all the astute people on the 'cat, many have never tried to understand the Israeli mindset. They spout about the dangers of Zionism, but allow that same sort of Zionism from other people to pass unnoticed, or worse, they defend it in others. So let me say this one more time.

Iran (a country I prefer to call Persia) is run by fucking megalomaniacs, and when they aren't running it the fucking religious idiots are. You think it's ok to have nuclear fucking bombs in the hands of people like that? Gimme a fucking break.

I expect the world will hear within the next two weeks that indeed Persia has been making a bomb. I hope that before the usuals state the same shit all over again they will consider this: Israel's existence is what's on the line, not some philosophy 101 horseshit about love your brothers and sisters because deep down they love you.

The leader of Persia has stated he wants to see Israel wiped off the map. Spin that any fucking way you want, but the bastard meant it.

You think--any of you--that a nuclear war in the mid-East will be just between Iran and Israel? Any takers on that? Jesus Christ, THINK about it. The idea of Armageddon appeals to fundamentalists--basically, stupid people. Then they can go meet God, G-d, Allah, The Big Kahuna. You see it in the USA, Israel, Iran and many countries in the Arab 'federation'. Well, Armageddon is just around the corner, and while it wouldn't bother me if the leaders and ayatollahs and people who support that type of thing would do the world a favour and drop dead, it bothers me greatly that the world will find out the true meaning of the term collateral damage.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: bobad
Date: 01 Feb 12 - 07:48 AM

From biLL's link:

"This week, the Vienna-based International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) is expected to issue a new report that officially confirms for the first time that Iran is experimenting with technology that serves only one purpose: building a nuclear bomb."


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: Silas
Date: 01 Feb 12 - 08:09 AM

"Oy, such a Judeao(sic)-Fascist state that the majority of Israeli-Arabs choose Israel over a Palestinian state."

Is there such a choice - news to me if there is.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: bobad
Date: 01 Feb 12 - 10:22 AM

"Is there such a choice - news to me if there is."

When polled.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: Ed T
Date: 01 Feb 12 - 05:36 PM

Israel: Iran could be nuclear within year

recent


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: Ed T
Date: 01 Feb 12 - 05:43 PM

Israel, Iran and the US: Axis of instability


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: Ed T
Date: 01 Feb 12 - 06:00 PM

Why Hasn't Israel Bombed Iran (Yet)?


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: GUEST,A.E. Newman
Date: 01 Feb 12 - 10:18 PM

IDJET....

WHY would Israel attack Iran when there are THREE USA Aircraft Carriers and ONE French Aircraft Carrier and ONE UK Aircraft Carrier currently in the "Persian/Arabian Gulf?"

Iran played her "war games" NATO has responded.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Feb 12 - 03:15 AM

UK has no aircraft carriers.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: Ed T
Date: 02 Feb 12 - 08:10 AM

Rumble in the Gulf?


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Feb 12 - 04:09 PM

A neglected factor is that Iran's current regime has repeatedly stated that it intends to wipe Israel out.

Well, it has said that it looks forward to a time when there won't be a country called Israel on the map of the region. There isn't a country called the Soviet Union or Czecholovakia either, and there won't be one called the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland either in a few years, if the Scots vote for independance. And while South Africa kept the same name, it's a very different country from apartheid days.

Names on maps aren't really the issue - it's what those names represent.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 02 Feb 12 - 05:14 PM

Israel probably will if it thinks it can get away with it. Otherwise it attacks only much weaker opponents or like Japan at Pearl Harbour.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: Ed T
Date: 03 Feb 12 - 04:34 PM

Last night on CNN.

Anderson Cooper


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: Greg F.
Date: 03 Feb 12 - 04:56 PM

If only the U.S. had the balls to tell Israel "try that, Sunshine, and there goes every cent of foreign aid you get from us"......


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: bobad
Date: 03 Feb 12 - 06:52 PM

Most of the world, including many Arab countries, will be greatful when/if Israel takes out Iran's nukes.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Feb 12 - 06:08 AM

"will be greatful when/if Israel takes out Iran's nukes."
Then we'll only have the Zionist/Israeli fanatic's nukes to worry about - look forward to the day (oh , forgot - the US has 'em too - ah, well !!!)
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: bobad
Date: 04 Feb 12 - 07:57 AM

"Then we'll only have the Zionist/Israeli fanatic's nukes to worry about"

Most of the world, including many Arab countries, don't seem to be as worried about Israel's nukes as they are about Iran's - except for those that would like to see Israel wiped off the map.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: Ed T
Date: 04 Feb 12 - 08:15 AM

Peaceful signs from Iran?

"From now on, in any place, if any nation or any group confronts the Zionist regime, we will endorse and we will help. We have no fear expressing this,"

"cancerous tumour that should be cut and will be cut". Iran's supreme leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei

Iran on Israel


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: Ed T
Date: 04 Feb 12 - 08:21 AM

Signs of conflict?
Signs of conflict


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Feb 12 - 09:22 AM

"Most of the world, including many Arab countries, don't seem to be as worried about Israel's nukes as they are about Iran's"
Six of one-half dozen of the other.
Any nuclear powered state with aggressive territorial or political ambitions is to be feared, especially those influenced by religious fanatics.
Still worth remembering that the only nation to have used weapons of mass destruction on a civilian population is the US.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: bobad
Date: 04 Feb 12 - 09:53 AM

"Still worth remembering that the only nation to have used weapons of mass destruction on a civilian population is the US."

And arguably many more lives would have lost if it had not done so - six of one.....


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Feb 12 - 10:30 AM

From another thread: "I might be nuts buy I ain't eat up stupid!!!

Does anyone of sense really think Iran would be stupid enough to attack Israel, knowing that within 48 hours the entire country - to use Curtis LeMay's famous phrase - would be bombed "back to the stone age"?

The U.S. should tell Israel to attack if they want, but they'll be carrying on the ensuing war without U.S. support of any kind.

That MIGHT get their attention...


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: Ed T
Date: 04 Feb 12 - 10:40 AM

""Does anyone of sense really think Iran would be stupid enough to attack Israel""

I believe the suggestion is that Iran inspired operatives may attack Israeli and Jewish interests abroad in retaliation for what seems to be covert attacks against Iran (for example Iran's scientists). The suggestion is this may stir the pot up more than it is now.

IMO, war and agressive action is stupid. But, unfortunately, stupid happens, as history shows us.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Feb 12 - 10:45 AM

"And arguably many more lives would have lost if it had not done so - six of one..... "
Just as arguably that this was not the case - which begs the question of the morality of mass slaughter of civilians (not to mention the legacy left to following generations still being born with the after-effects). If we haven't learned the obscenity of nuclear weapons by now we relinquish all claims to humanity IMO.
How on earth can anybody "be greatful when/if Israel takes out Iran's nukes".... and claim to be human (unless, of course somebody has invented a bomb which leaves human beings unscathed and just destroys weapons - have I missed something)?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Feb 12 - 11:52 AM

This war is starting to seem inevitable, the same way Iraq did. And it will be even more disastrous. Probably far more so. Especially to Israel,in the long run. Which might not be all that long.

Sleepwalking into Armageddon.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 05 Feb 12 - 03:59 AM

The threat of Israeli "nukes"?

They have supposedly had them since 1964 yet have never threatened to use them against anybody? Listening to the rhetoric coming out of the major Arab states at that time (no translational problems regarding exact intent there Kevin) that would have been a good time to threaten the use of nuclear weapons to counter aggression. Again in 1973 seven days into the Yom Kippur War might have been a good time but no threat was ever made.

Basically the Iranians were caught out and exposed by Mossad who leaked details relating to what was going on at Natanz and at Qom.

Iran being part of the "Atoms for Peace" programme was entitled to receive technical and material assistance. Throughout the time Iran was building Natanz and Qom they were negotiating with Russia to purchase fuel rods for their nuclear reactor, via Dr.A.Q.Khan they got designs for nuclear warheads and for uranium enrichment centrifuges, all this information they were passing on to both Libya and to Syria.

Had the covers not been blown on Natanz and Qom, Iran, Libya and Syria would have built something like six low yield tactical nuclear devices, these would have been smuggled into Israel and exploded. No rocket launches, no ramping up of politicial tensions, just six detonations to be blamed on either Hamas or Hezbollah or some other group. Iran the only country apart from Pakistan who might be suspected would with the aid of the IAEA be able to prove that all fissile material obtained from Russia was present and accounted for.

Result Israel "wiped off the face of the map"; "the stain of Israel would have expunged from arab lands".

Unfortunately for Iran the truth about its secret uranium enrichment programme came out just about the time Saddam Hussein in Iraq got the message and Iran reportedly temporarily halted its nuclear weapons programme - Why?? Because having been deiscovered they now had to find a means to deliver it in self defence - so they concentrated on missiles, they have now launched a satellite into space with both statellite and launch vehicle being "homegrown", the demonstration was not lost on the Russians, or the French who are now firmly in range of any Iranian ballistic missile. Very soon so will the USA.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: Ed T
Date: 05 Feb 12 - 07:39 AM

Will Israel attack Iran? Al Jazeera


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Feb 12 - 08:12 AM

Teribus didn't mention the magic flying carpet which would presumably be used as a delivery system.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Feb 12 - 03:57 AM

Teribus has referred to the non-magical delivery systems available to Iran McGrath.
I wish to comment on the double standards applied to 2 adjoining countries, Israel ans Syria, by certain Mudcat contributors.

The Syrian government forces are bombarding the city of Homs with an indiscriminate reckless abandon never seen in Gaza.
There was an outpouring of outrage against Israel and its sponsor USA.
They have not raised a single objection to the actions of Syria and its sponsors, Russia and China.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Feb 12 - 04:11 AM

"They have not raised a single objection to the actions of Syria and its sponsors, Russia and China."
What - and risk the accusation of thread drift!!!
The subject here is Israel and Iran - the appalling behaviour of the Syrian government (and the fact that none of the western powers have taken steps to oppose it - pretty much as the fact that the Lybian rebels were being slaughtered by govenment supporters using British weapons) is not the issue here
The possibility of nuclear conflict comes from Israel and Iran - not from Syria.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Feb 12 - 05:44 AM

It did not have to be on this thread Jim, and you have happily thread drifted many times to criticise Isarel.
Why the difference?


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Feb 12 - 07:29 AM

"Why the difference? "
Youwere the one who usually hid behind the claim of '
thread drift' when it got out of your comfort zone.
You were as free as anybody here to open a thread on Syria and I have no doubt you would have the support of everybody here (assuming you would not be supporting the massacres, or claiming they were not happening, of course) but you didn't, now you are berating the rest of us for not doing what you haven't done.
You are the major supporter of state terrorism on this forum with your blind support for Israel - now you are attempting to veer the discussion away from the nuclear threat posed by two terrorist states - can't you try to be a little more subtle?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: bobad
Date: 06 Feb 12 - 08:59 AM

J.L. Granatstein: We Don't Need the UN's Permission


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 06 Feb 12 - 09:16 AM

The history of it all will be written in ash. Rather than hither and forths about who hit who back first, maybe y'all oughta give a thought to fallout. That should take some folks back to their teens or twenties.

Countries seldom change leaders in time of war, so Obama may just NEED this war to keep his seat as president of a country that has become just another military-industrial complex.

The Syrians have been crazy fucks from day one and they have tight control over their population: secret police with authority from government can sure control things. Iran's leadership over the decades has been uh, well, let me put it this way: they have been as tightly wrapped as three-layer a$$wipe. And before I forget, they too have secret police. Shazpot, so does the US and Israel. Everyone is supporting one police state or other.

The Israelis will fry just as quickly as the Iranians or Syrians. The US will no doubt do as much of it as possible by proxy. What a stupid thing is war.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Feb 12 - 09:42 AM

God bless Yogi Berra.

In RE: Iraq, Afghanistan and now Iran:

Its deja vu all over again.

"The God-damned Human Race" [as Sam Clamens called 'em) has apparently lost thre ability to learn from mistakes.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Feb 12 - 10:07 AM

You were the one who usually hid behind the claim of '
thread drift' when it got out of your comfort zone.

No, I just complain when you launch another attack on Israel on threads with no connection.

You were as free as anybody here to open a thread on Syria
You do not need me to open a thread when you want to attack Israel.
What is the difference Jim?


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: Ed T
Date: 06 Feb 12 - 10:46 AM

Israel's end is near, Ahmadinejad says


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: Ed T
Date: 06 Feb 12 - 10:50 AM

Note the date of my last post was 2007.
The meaning is political speculation on what will happen in the future (carried bythe media)at times is just that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Feb 12 - 11:15 AM

"No, I just complain when you launch another attack on Israel on threads with no connection."
No - you contantly complain of thread drift when you get out of your depth - as you contantly do, especially with your support of Israeli terrorism.
"You do not need me to open a thread when you want to attack Israel."
Israeli terrorism is a constant topic on this thread - and your support for it is well-known
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: GUEST,Jim Knowledge
Date: 06 Feb 12 - 12:16 PM

I `ad that Jethro, the West Country comedian, in my cab the other day. `e `ad a very serious look on `is face. Just like that Rodin`s, "The Thinker".
I said, "Morning Jethro. A penny for `em. What`s got you all ponderous?"
`e said, "Oh, morning Jim. It`s that "Im-a-dinner-jacket" in Iran. `e`s getting well uppity."
I said, "I don`t think `e`ll get out of `is pram."
`e said, "Jim, what we`ve got to ask ourselves today is, "If Iran attacks Israel from the rear, would Greece `elp""??

Whaddam I Like??


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Feb 12 - 12:48 PM

Brilliant!!!.....What a guy :0)


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: Ed T
Date: 06 Feb 12 - 01:53 PM

""If Iran attacks Israel from the rear, would Greece `elp""

Well, there was the Greco-Persion war, (492-449 BC), (492–449 BC),when Persia (a major force at the time) attacked and battled Greek cities, but that was quite awhile back in BC. Seems like the Greeks (aka Greece) won that one in the end and backed the Persions up.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Feb 12 - 03:10 PM

No - you contantly complain of thread drift when you get out of your depth
Silly.
How could you changing the subject do that?
Care to give an example?
Just one Jim.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 07 Feb 12 - 10:38 AM

If this happens, there will be a world war.

Once again, Judaism and Islam are at odds ignited by Christian fundamentalism.

The Muslim Brotherhood is figuring in Syria and Egypt.

Shi'ite and Sunni at it again.

Get it?


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 07 Feb 12 - 11:25 AM

The Merry Minuet.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Feb 12 - 11:56 AM

There should be a few new internal verses to The Merry Minuet. He never heard of the Kims in N. Korea.

"Shi'ite and Sunni at it again.

Get it?"


Got it....


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Feb 12 - 02:58 AM

ignited by Christian fundamentalism.

I would certainly challenge that.
Can you justify it please.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Feb 12 - 03:02 AM

Judaism and Islam are at odds

Are they?
Israel fears that possession of nukes will enable Iran to fulfil its threats.
Not Judaism.
Not Islam.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: Lox
Date: 08 Feb 12 - 05:47 AM

""Still worth remembering that the only nation to have used weapons of mass destruction on a civilian population is the US."

And arguably many more lives would have lost if it had not done so - six of one..... "

Not true - the Japanese were about to surrender - the use of the two bombs was to make a statement to Stalin.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Feb 12 - 06:15 AM

Are you sure of that Lox?
Where did you find it please?


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Feb 12 - 08:59 AM

By Professor Duncan Anderson
The work by American historians has been reinforced by the labours of their Japanese counterparts. The Japanese peace feelers directed at the Soviet Union have been exposed as belated attempts to delay a Soviet entry into the war, not genuine attempts at negotiation. It has also been shown that the Japanese were demanding very much more than a guarantee of the emperor's safety, for example a guarantee of no Allied occupation of Japan, before they would consider serious negotiations.

Also thanks to the work of Japanese historians, we now know much more about Japanese plans in the summer of 1945. Japan had no intention of surrendering. It had husbanded over 8,000 aircraft, many of them Kamikazes, hundreds of explosive-packed suicide boats, and over two million well equipped regular soldiers, backed by a huge citizen's militia. When the Americans landed, the Japanese intended to hit them with everything they had, to impose on them casualties that might break their will. If this did not do it, then the remnants of the army and the militias would fight on as guerrillas, protected by the mountains and by the civilian population.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/worldwars/wwtwo/nuclear_01.shtml

By Historian Robert James Maddox in "The Greatest Hoax In American History: Japan's Alleged Willingness to Surrender During the Final Months of World War II"
A staple of Hiroshima Revisionism has been the contention that the government of Japan was prepared to surrender during the summer of 1945, with the sole proviso that its sacred emperor be retained. President Harry S. Truman and those around him knew this through intercepted Japanese diplomatic messages, the story goes, but refused to extend such an assurance because they wanted the war to continue until atomic bombs became available. The real purpose of using the bombs was not to defeat an already-defeated Japan, but to give the United States a club to use against the Soviet Union. Thus Truman purposely slaughtered hundreds of thousands of Japanese, not to mention untold thousands of other Asians and Allied servicemen who would perish as the war needlessly ground on, primarily to gain diplomatic advantage.


One might think that compelling substantiation would be necessary to support such a monstrous charge, but the revisionists have been unable to provide a single example from Japanese sources.
http://www.americanthinker.com/2008/08/hiroshima_hoax_japans_wllingne.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: Ed T
Date: 08 Feb 12 - 11:43 AM

Global firepower


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 08 Feb 12 - 11:52 AM

Ed T: the Canadian data is messed up. Canada has FIVE subs. They've forgot the one in West Edmonton Mall.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: Ed T
Date: 08 Feb 12 - 12:00 PM

""Canada has FIVE subs. They've forgot the one in West Edmonton ""

Is that one from a 60's cerial box, and operates on baking soda?

Who says ships are unsinkable?
Canadian subs is proof that they can exist:)


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 08 Feb 12 - 12:23 PM

Oh, yeah. Forgot about that. Well then, Canada has 621,368 subs. Don't fu#k with us. We got boats muh son, lotsa boats.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: Ed T
Date: 08 Feb 12 - 03:43 PM

Preparing for Iran strike?

message-of-peace

Tensions rise


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 08 Feb 12 - 05:34 PM

Ed T: the second link is messed up.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: Ed T
Date: 08 Feb 12 - 06:44 PM

Sorry, it does not seem to link. I will paste it below It's an Associated press story.


Iarael's president sends message of peace to Iran
Associated Press | Posted: Wednesday, February 8, 2012 1:26 pm
Dan Balilty
FILE - In this Tuesday, Nov. 23, 2010 file photo, Israel's Meir Dagan, at the time Director of Mossad, the Israeli Institute for Intelligence and Special Operations, takes part in a ceremony in Tel Aviv, Israel. Dagan, a former spymaster who has accused Israel's top leaders of barreling toward a rash military strike in Iran said Wednesday, Feb. 8, 2012, that Israel's survival is not at risk, an assessment that puts him sharply at odds with Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu. (AP Photos/Dan Balilty, File)
Israel's president reached out to the Iranian people with a message of peace Wednesday, as the West tightened sanctions over Iran's nuclear program, and a former Israeli spymaster said Israel is not in mortal danger.
Shimon Peres, an elder statesmen who is a Nobel Peace laureate, appealed to the people of Iran to look beyond the current crisis.
The U.S., Israel and the West believe Iran is trying to produce nuclear weapons. Iran denies that. This week the U.S. cranked up its sanctions on Iran to try to force it to stop its uranium enrichment, but Iran responded with defiance.
Speaking at a ceremony marking the 63rd anniversary of the founding of Israel's parliament, Peres directed his remarks to the people of Iran.
"We were not born enemies and there is no need to live as enemies. Do not allow the flags of hostility to cast a dark shadow over your historic heritage," Peres said. "Your people are a sensitive people that aspire for friendship and peace, and not for conflicts and wars."
Israel and Iran had close relations before the Islamic Revolution in 1979.
Peres spokeswoman Ayelet Frisch said he had fond memories of Iran then.
"Peres is one of the few people in Israel who remember the warm ties between the two countries. He visited a few times before the revolution, he walked the streets of Tehran, ate at restaurants there and had many Iranian friends," she told The Associated Press.
In contrast to his message to the people, Peres denounced the Iranian regime.
"Iran is not only a threat for Israel, it constitutes a real danger to humanity as a whole," Peres said about the Iranian nuclear program. "The present Iranian regime is Imperialism-hungry, aspiring to be the region's supreme ruler," he said.
Peres, 88, fills a mostly ceremonial post as Israel's president. He spoke after U.S. officials expressed concern that Israel might attack Iran's nuclear facilities in the spring. Israel's leaders rank Iran as their greatest threat because of its nuclear and missile development programs, frequent references by its leaders to Israel's destruction and support for violent anti-Israel groups like Hezbollah in Lebanon and Hamas in the West Bank and Gaza.
Earlier Wednesday, Meir Dagan, the former head of the Mossad spy agency said he does not believe Israel faces an existential threat from Iran, a view that contrasts with Israel's prime minister and other leaders.
Since retiring a year ago, Dagan has become a surprisingly vocal critic, repeatedly and publicly accusing Israel's top leaders of irresponsibly pushing for an attack on Iran.
At the launch of an electoral reform movement he chairs, he observed, "I don't think there is an existential threat." He did not specifically mention Iran, but the use of the phrase "existential threat" in Israel generally refers to Iran.
Although Israel says it hopes deepening economic sanctions will pressure Tehran to curb its nuclear ambitions, Israeli leaders haven't ruled out military action, routinely observing that "all options are on the table."
Copyright 2012 The Associated Press. All rights reserved.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: Ed T
Date: 11 Feb 12 - 09:32 AM

Hamas-Iran


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 11 Feb 12 - 10:02 AM

Bet it does. Bet they do it way more surgically than we would.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: bobad
Date: 11 Feb 12 - 10:25 AM

Ahmadinejad to make major nuclear annoucement

Iranian president tells crowds celebrating anniversary of 1979 revolution to expect important statement within days.

Al Jazeera


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 12 Feb 12 - 09:31 AM

If Israel attack Iran (like they did before) there will be a lot of hand wringing and statements of regret. Then they'll go on handing out the subsidies to Israel as usual.

Now if Iran were to attack Israel....

Remember how the USA and UK shafted the democratic opposition in Iran when they attacked Iraq. You have to admit that the mad mullahs only get stronger each time the Western world intervene.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: Ed T
Date: 12 Feb 12 - 01:37 PM

""If Israel attack Iran (like they did before)""

When was that?

Some news:

German defense minister on potential Israeli attack

iran rebukes azerbaijan

Seen as worthwhile?


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 12 Feb 12 - 03:17 PM

They attacked Iraqi nuclear installations in 1981: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Opera

I'd make a link but I can't be arsed for such ignorance.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: bobad
Date: 12 Feb 12 - 04:15 PM

Iran and Iraq are different countries.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 12 Feb 12 - 04:38 PM

Oy! A yank with geography!


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: DougR
Date: 12 Feb 12 - 04:50 PM

I believe, eventually, the Israelis will bomb Iran's nuclear facilities. They probably will give the diplomatic efforts a chance to work, but if they don't, I think it will be a great big BOOM!

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: Ed T
Date: 12 Feb 12 - 05:02 PM

""Iran and Iraq are different countries""

Hopefully all those with big munitions and bad intents know that also.
LOL


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: bobad
Date: 12 Feb 12 - 05:51 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: Paul Burke - PM
Date: 12 Feb 12 - 09:31 AM

If Israel attack Iran (like they did before).....

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: Ed T - PM
Date: 12 Feb 12 - 01:37 PM

""If Israel attack Iran (like they did before)""

When was that?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: Paul Burke - PM
Date: 12 Feb 12 - 03:17 PM

They attacked Iraqi nuclear installations in 1981: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Opera

I'd make a link but I can't be arsed for such ignorance.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------




A little confused, are we?


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: Ed T
Date: 14 Feb 12 - 07:53 AM

As this is not already complex:
Iran-Israel-India


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 14 Feb 12 - 08:39 AM

Is anyone else following this side story?

I was unsure if the video was a hoax initially, but it seems that the hacker group Anonymous may be beginning to make good its threat to mount a cyber 'crusade' against Israel.

http://www.haaretz.com/business/hackers-hit-israel-prime-minister-office-website-1.412769


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: Ed T
Date: 14 Feb 12 - 04:09 PM

Israel has accused Iran of another "attempted terrorist attack" after an Iranian operative blew his own legs off while trying to flee an accidental explosion at a bomb factory in Bangkok.



Israel accuses Iran of terrorism


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: Ed T
Date: 14 Feb 12 - 04:23 PM

From Newsweek, via the Daily Beast:

Israel-Iran on Eve of Destruction in a New Six-Day War


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Feb 12 - 08:35 PM

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Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: bobad
Date: 12 Feb 12 - 04:15 PM

Iran and Iraq are different countries.

#############################

Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 12 Feb 12 - 04:38 PM

Oy! A yank with geography!

##############################

Bobad is a Canadian.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 14 Feb 12 - 09:14 PM

Damn, did it again. That post was me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: Ed T
Date: 15 Feb 12 - 12:48 PM

Now that they have the three of them, will they spill the beans on who put them up to it?

Iranians


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: bobad
Date: 16 Feb 12 - 11:00 AM

Netanyahu blasts Iran over nuclear program


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: Ed T
Date: 18 Feb 12 - 02:45 PM

Iran warships enter Mediterranean -tensions with Israel grow


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: Ed T
Date: 18 Feb 12 - 03:01 PM

south-caucasus-nations-fear-iran-israel-war


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: Ed T
Date: 18 Feb 12 - 04:06 PM

""More history's made by secret handshakes than by battles, bills, and proclamations"". John Barth, The Sot-Weed Factor


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 18 Feb 12 - 05:24 PM

The government of Israel has made themselves hateful. Being wiped off the map is a propaganda tool used by those who claim that anyone actually has said this.

Netanyahu has to be replaced by a more sensible leader who is not a saber rattler
and has a more charitable attitude to the Palestinian state.

There are Jews in Israel today who do not approve of what their government is doing
and are activists, some jailed.

Will Obama widen his wars to include Iran? If Israel attacks the Iranian nuclear
facility, Iran will respond in kind. Then the U.S. is in an untenable situation
where it feels it has to defend Israel which then will trigger another world war.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 18 Feb 12 - 05:40 PM

Iran's leaders are nutters of the religious variety. They don't care if the whle feckin world dies, as long as they can maintain their pretence.

Israel on the other hand is a sane secular society run on democratic principles in which all citizens are equal, irrespective of faith, ethnicity, gender or sexual orientation.

But if Israel attacks Iran, the nutters will have an excuse to attack Israel. And if Israel has been duped into attacking the decoy plant, that could be nuclear.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 18 Feb 12 - 11:19 PM

A "sane secular society" whose whole existence is entirely based on the "reclaiming" of a biblical homeland which was abandoned nearly 2000 years ago?


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: Ed T
Date: 21 Feb 12 - 07:39 AM

http://www.montrealgazette.com/business/Iran+stages+exercises+warning+against+Israeli+strike/6182439/story.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: Ed T
Date: 21 Feb 12 - 07:41 AM

Oops

Iran-Military exercises


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 24 Feb 12 - 07:49 AM

http://news.yahoo.com/thedc-jamie-weinstein-more-proof-israel-cannot-tolerate-043058332.html

""Mostafa's ultimate goal was the annihilation of Israel," Fatemeh Bolouri Kashani told the Fars News Agency this week.
She was referring to the wishes of her late husband, Mostafa Ahmadi Roshan Behdast, an Iranian nuclear scientist assassinated on the streets of Tehran in January.
It is unclear who exactly murdered her husband and other scientists involved in the Iranian nuclear program over the last two years — no one has claimed responsibility — but their elimination was likely directed by Israel, the United States or one of the various Arab countries that quite understandably fear a nuclear Iran (or perhaps a combination thereof). What Kashani's comment highlights, however, is why Israel cannot live with a nuclear Iran and why Israel's leaders have been forced to seriously weigh authorizing a difficult and dangerous mission to set the Iranian nuclear program back militarily.
Many foreign policy elites, perhaps epitomized by CNN host Fareed Zakaria, confidently assert that the Israel specifically and the West generally can live with a nuclear Iran. The Iranian leadership isn't suicidal, they tell us. Ignore Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's repeated calls for Israel to be wiped off the map, or Iranian Supreme Leader Ayatollah Khamenei's statement that Israel is a "cancerous tumor of a state" that "should be removed from the region," or supposed moderate former Iranian President Akbar Rafsanjani's casual remark that the "application of an atomic bomb would not leave anything in Israel but the same thing would just produce damages in the Muslim world.""


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 24 Feb 12 - 01:06 PM

http://news.yahoo.com/iran-wants-more-un-nuclear-talks-tehran-stalemate-095121644.html


"VIENNA (Reuters) - Iran has sharply stepped up its controversial uranium enrichment drive, a United Nations watchdog report showed on Friday, a defiant move certain to further fuel Western alarm about the Islamic Republic's atomic aims.
The International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA), in a confidential document, also reported its failed mission to Tehran this week to try and get Iran to respond to allegations of research relevant for the development of nuclear weapons.
The setback increased worries about a downward spiral towards conflict between Iran and the West, and sent oil prices higher.
"The Agency continues to have serious concerns regarding possible military dimensions to Iran's nuclear program," the Vienna-based U.N. body said in its latest quarterly report about Iran's atomic activities.
The IAEA report to member states showed Iran had carried out a significant expansion of activities at its main enrichment plant near the central city of Natanz, and also increased work at the Fordow underground facility."


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: bobad
Date: 26 Feb 12 - 01:08 PM

Is an Israeli attack inevitable?

A close look at the debate inside Israel reveals deep divisions on the issue of striking Iran, writes Peter Jones

Read more:


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 26 Feb 12 - 02:15 PM

I am not in favor of any expansion of nukes for peacetime or war. Witness Fukushima.


The US and Israel have more war nukes than Iran or any other Mid-East country. The argument for bombing Iran is specious and harmful propaganda.

Gush Shalom and Uri Avnery (can be searched out by search engines) are proponents of peace and are active in Israeli politics today. They are admirable in my opinion.
There are many in Israel today who would oppose the bombing of Iran as there are
in the U.S.

When the US invokes the mantle of international opinion, it refers to those countries whose heads of state who agree and cooperate with the US. This is phony. The US is not international opinion. This is hegemony.

If the Straits of Hormuz are closed, Wall Street bank speculators will use this as an excuse to raise the price of gas at the pump even more. They (Koch Brothers among them) are the culprits.

If a war is started with Iran, the only beneficiaries will be those bank speculators who have bought out oil reserves and the military industrial complex who manufacture weapons as well as power in the Pentagon.

if Israel or the US dare to bomb Iran's nuke facilities, they well might trigger a world war.

We've seen this movie before entitled "Iraq" and "smoking guns and mushroom clouds".


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 26 Feb 12 - 05:41 PM

Rest assured of one thing Stringsinger - World War III is not going to start over Iran. Neither Russia or China are going to risk a war with the USA, simply because they have too much to lose.

Iran would be making the greatest mistake of all if it attempted to close the Straits of Hormuz to international shipping - just working on precedent the UN view such an act as an act of war. That is a war they would lose and not one single US Marine would have to set foot on Iranian soil.

In 2004 Iran was caught out, they will develop their nuclear weapons programme to the point just short of having a weapon, because now the weapons they were originally hoping to build in secret in collusion with Dr A.Q.Khan, North Korea, Syria and Libya can no longer be used, and the Iranians found themselves having to rapidly develop a conventional means of delivery for their own defence.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: Ed T
Date: 26 Feb 12 - 07:23 PM

Israel inks $1.6 billion arms deal with Azerbaijan


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: Bobert
Date: 26 Feb 12 - 08:04 PM

First, Iran is way behind in developing a deliverable nuke... That was reported to Congress last week by the US intelligence people...

Second, Iran may be irritating but these people ain't stupid... Any nuclear attack against Israel would be suicidal... They would cease to exist in a matter of hours...

Third, the US/UK has created so much instability in the Middle East that if Iran isn't trying to get a nuke, it should be...

Forth, even though the majority of Americans think that bombing Iran is peachy by them, Obama knows that after Iraq-mire and Afghanistan-mire that the American people will be quick to develop a severe case of buyer's remorse with yet another war...

Fifth, history is littered with wars that were bumbled into so it would behoove the Republican presidential candidates to shut down their woof-woof rhetoric... The rest of the world doesn't get the American political sytem and the Republican candidates don't get much of anything...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: bobad
Date: 27 Feb 12 - 08:08 AM

Interesting info from Wikileaks "The Global Intelligence Files":

Despite the reports in the media and against any public
knowledge, the promoter of a massive Israeli attack on Syria is
the axis India-Russia-Turkey-Saudi Arabia. The axis
US-Germany-France-China is against such an attack from obvious
reasons. Not many people know that Russia is one of Israel's
largest military partners and India is Israel's largest client.

If a direct conflict between Iran and Israel erupts, Russia and
Saudi Arabia will gain the advantages on oil increasing prices.
On the other hand, China and Europe are expected to loose from
an oil crisis as a result of a conflict. Based on Israeli plans,
the attack on Iran will last only 48 hours but will be so
destructive that Iran will be unable to retaliate or recover and
the government will fall. It is hard to believe that Hamas or
Hezbollah will try to get involved in this conflict.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 27 Feb 12 - 08:28 AM

Teribus,


"World War III is not going to start over Iran. Neither Russia or China are going to risk a war with the USA, simply because they have too much to lose."

I have to disagree. Look at Europe in 1912-1914, or Poland in 1939.

Nor is Bobert correct in his comments:

"First, Iran is way behind in developing a deliverable nuke... That was reported to Congress last week by the US intelligence people..."

These are the same people that he criticised for thinking that the Iraqis had a nuclear program, and the Iraqi people would rise up to support invasion...The facts indicate that they are less than 6 months from a warhead, and they already have demonstrated IRBMs capable of reacing Europe, Israel, and , if place on container ships off the coast in international waters,, anywhere in the US.



"Second, Iran may be irritating but these people ain't stupid... Any nuclear attack against Israel would be suicidal... They would cease to exist in a matter of hours..."

Only if they believe that that other countries, and people like Bobert, will not demand that the US NOT attack them if they attack Israel. Since they believe what they WANT TO BELIEVE, I doubt if they think that they will suffer any more than when they had civilians march into minefields, to clear the way for tanks and troops




"Third, the US/UK has created so much instability in the Middle East that if Iran isn't trying to get a nuke, it should be..."

The UK may be credited with a major part, for it's actions as the Mandate Power in Palestine, but I think there would be a greater degree of instability if there were not US efforts in the region, based on historical records.
"


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 Feb 12 - 08:32 AM

"The Facts Indicate"..... just like the "facts" indicated that Saddam had WMD's & all ythe rest.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 27 Feb 12 - 08:56 AM

GregF,

The facts indicated that Saddam had a DEVELOPMENT PROGRAM FOR WMD- as was stated at the time. And it turns out he did.

And the point of my post was that Bobert is now using the same sources that Bush used to justify Bobert's call to inaction. So, what YOU are stating is in support of NOT trusting those agencies for the information to make life-or-death decisions that Bobert is claiming we should depend on them for.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 27 Feb 12 - 11:52 AM

"Iran is way behind in developing a deliverable nuke." - Bobert

Deliverable? Many ways of delivering a nuclear device. Had the nuclear weapons programmes of Iran, Syria and Libya remained secret as they were supposed to, the means of delivery would have been component by component smuggled in with the device (small low yield tactical nuke) being assembled on site. My guess is that there would have been between four and six of them.

In 2003 GWB invaded Iraq and deposed Saddam Hussein just to ensure that that sort of scenario could not be played out against the USA, or any of her allies. Libya blinked, Iran crash stopped its programme and then went into overdrive developing missiles with the aid of the North Koreans (they now have ballistic missiles that can hit Moscow and anywhere in Europe), Syrian nuclear ambitions were discovered and the Israeli Air Force with the assistance of the Turks wiped their nuclear facility out. The uncertainty at the moment is whether or not Iran has restarted her nuclear weapons programme.

Under the original plan if small low yield nukes had gone off in Israel the only suspect would have been Iran, who along with the IAEA would be able to prove conclusively that ever atom of fissile material received from Russia for its nuclear programme was accounted for - After all the IAEA and the rest of the world would have not known of the existence of the secret uranium enrichment plants in Natanz or Qom.

"the promoter of a massive Israeli attack on Syria is..." -bobad

Is that a typo? Did you mean an attack on Iran?

beardedbruce

I fail to see any parallel or similarity between Europe between 1912 and 1914, or Europe in 1939.

The First World War was completely ridiculous, the Kaiser had been pushing for it for years and would have gone to war on any pretext. The supposed cause involved the Austro-Hungarian Empire (One dead Archduke), the Serbs (nationalism) and Tsarist Russia (meddling). Left to those actors there may well have been a war but it would have been minor and over in months. It was the Kaiser's Germany butting in from the sidelines that widened and escalated the problem. Today with the situation regarding Iran there is no such party pushing from the sidelines, in fact quite the reverse.

Europe in the 1930's had seen Germany elect a nationalist government to power, which then broke the Versailles Treaty, re-armed, re-occupied the Rhineland, annexed Austria, took over the Sudetenland then negotiated to leave the rest of Czechoslovakia alone - a promise that they promptly ignored. With a string of broken promises a line was drawn relating to Poland. Alliances were formed to assure the Poles. When Germany (viewed as the aggressor), the Soviet Union (seen to be acting in her own self interest to create a buffer-zone) and Hungary (pure Jackal opportunism) attacked Poland, the British and the French honoured their promises and declared war on Germany. Today with the situation regarding Iran the Iranians have just reached the first stage where the International Community suspect that they have "broken" the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty. The Iranians may have trading partners but she has no allies save Syria and Venezuela. Russia is in no fit state to fight a war and neither is China, both know it and so does the USA.

The middle-east would have been far, far better off had the US backed the British and the French in 1956 (Even Eisenhower admitted his handling of Suez was the greatest mistake he ever made in his time in Office as President - he stopped the British and the French invasion of the canal zone in 1956 only to find HE had to invade the Lebanon himself in 1958).

Had the US backed the UK and France, Nasser's pan-Arabist Egypt would have been isolated from Israel by a corridor held by two permanent members of the UN Security council, there would have been no Fedayeen attacks from the Sinai between 1956 and 1967, there would have been no way for an Egyptian Army to assemble on Israel's borders, there would have been no closure of the Suez Canal or the Straits of Tiran (the thing that prompted Israel to act in 1967). Eisenhower's actions handed most Arab states in the middle-east and the North coast of Africa over to the Soviets causing the US to have to deploy a Fleet in the Mediterranean full time.

The British left the area in 1948 when the mandate expired. In 1937 the Peel Commission recommended a two-state solution, this was also adopted by the UN who proposed that to both sides in 1947 - The Jews of Palestine accepted it and the Arabs of Palestine rejected it and elected to fight.

In the break-up of the Ottoman Empire the League of Nations sought to create two secular havens of tolerance in the middle-east one was the Lebanon and the second was post-1923 Palestine. Lebanon was destroyed by Syrian interference and you can see how tolerant an Arab Palestine would work out by looking at Gaza.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: bobad
Date: 27 Feb 12 - 12:06 PM

"Is that a typo? Did you mean an attack on Iran?"

That's reproduced from the document - from the context I believe it's a mis-type and indeed should be Iran.

Document


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 27 Feb 12 - 12:20 PM

T,

In 1914, the nations acting did not think that the other nations would react as they did- ditto Germany in 1938-9. I believe that the Iranians will BELIEVE that they will not be obliterated, because that is what they wish to believe.

I agree with your assessments, but reality does not matter when it comes to the decisions of an absolute (religious) dictatorship. What is significant is what the nations involved THINK will happen. As long as the Left insists Obama will never attack Iran, the Iranians will act as if they can get away with an attack on Israel. Thus, comments like Bobert's are more likely to lead us into World War III (or IV, perhaps) than all the saber-rattling by Israel.

Remember what Hitler said about the Armenians, as he started to round up the Jews, Gypsies, et al.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: Silas
Date: 27 Feb 12 - 12:27 PM

"The facts indicated that Saddam had a DEVELOPMENT PROGRAM FOR WMD"

no, not the facts - it was the speculation. The facts were that he didn't have have a development programme and if hanz Blick had been allowed to complete his investigation this would been obvious .


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 27 Feb 12 - 12:33 PM

"The facts were that he didn't have have a development programme and if hanz Blick had been allowed to complete his investigation this would been obvious ."

There is evidence to the contrary in both the documents recovered after the invasion and the reports of truck caravans taking material into Syria on the eve of the invasion. This has been discussed repeatedly. Why do you believe that your statement is true?


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: Silas
Date: 27 Feb 12 - 12:41 PM

Because after the bullshit spoken before the invasion by the american propagnda movement, I would be wary of believing any 'evidence' that was produced by the good old US of A


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 27 Feb 12 - 12:46 PM

And I have found that those who state that there was no evidence have never bothered to look at what was found, or read the actual UN Reports.

I still have reason to doubt the veracity of your statement.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: Silas
Date: 27 Feb 12 - 01:04 PM

I have found that the US will use the UN when it suits them and ignor it when it dosent. Iraq being a case in point.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 27 Feb 12 - 05:56 PM


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 28 Feb 12 - 12:40 AM

"The facts were that he didn't have have a development programme and if hanz Blick had been allowed to complete his investigation this would been obvious ."

Wrong. Saddam Hussein and his regime had made it certain that UNMOVIC could never do their job.

In 1991 Iraq was to have halted its WMD development - Yet they started a VX development programme while UNSCOM were still in the country - you cannot dis-invent science, the people were in place as was all the equipment they needed, Blix was not allowed to interview the scientists, there were no U2 surveillance flights as required by UNSCR 1441.

Iraq was developing proscribed weapons systems (rockets/missiles) and Saddam had smuggled 384 rocket engines into the country.

When Blix wrote his book "Disarming Iraq" in 2004 he fully believed that Iraq still possessed WMD.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: Silas
Date: 28 Feb 12 - 03:16 AM

Well there you go, it obviously works this US propaganda machine.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 28 Feb 12 - 02:19 PM

there are already Israeli commando raids in Iran attacking nuke facilities.

We need to put the old hoary bromide about Hussein having nukes to rest. It's false.

America is the only country outside of Israel and India which possess the most nuclear weapons and if they are there, they will probably be used at some time or other.

The paranoia that guides Netanyahu policies is growing out of control daily.
There are dissident voices in Israel that see this sickness for what it is but they
are often jailed.

Check out Uri Avnery for example.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 Feb 12 - 02:25 PM

String,


"We need to put the old hoary bromide about Hussein having nukes to rest. It's false."

The FACTS presented were that Iraq HAD a PROGRAM of WMD and prohibited rocket DEVELOPMENT. THAT is true, NOT the claims pushed by the liberal media that he had nuclear weapons.

To set up a lie as a strawman, and then prove your lie false does NOT give weight to your premise.




"America is the only country outside of Israel and India which possess the most nuclear weapons and if they are there, they will probably be used at some time or other."

Other than Britain, France, Russia, China, Pakistan, and North Korea.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 Feb 12 - 02:35 PM

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0762462.html



http://www.armscontrol.org/factsheets/Nuclearweaponswhohaswhat


http://www.timeforchange.org/nuclear-energy-and-nuclear-weapons-per-country


Country        # of nuclear weapons

USA               10'300
Russia        16'000
China        410
France      350
UK            200
Israel       100
India         90
Pakistan           85


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 Feb 12 - 10:13 AM

BB: I still have reason to doubt the veracity of your statement.

Bruce doubts for the same reason Iona doubts evolution; because he is a true believer and no amount of factual information will change his mind.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 29 Feb 12 - 10:18 AM

Keep chasing me, Greg F....


You deny that you made a racist lie about me, stating that I had called someone a "Stupid N**ger" and based it on someone else saying that the person who had proposed a bill being discussed was "Black, and a Democrat"?

I know that YOU read "Black and a Democrat" as "Stupid n***ger", but the rest of us do not, nor do we try to use such racist attacks to get away from arguements we have lost, nor do we make up lies about people.


YOU are scum.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 29 Feb 12 - 10:22 AM

Greg F,

You want to discuss my posts, have some facts, and discuss the POST.

When YOU attack me, I will post your racist bigotry until you are know as not fit for conversation.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 29 Feb 12 - 11:46 AM

FACT: In June of 2006 the National Ground Intelligence Center, a Defense Department intelligence unit, released portions of a declassified report which stated unequivocally that "Since 2003, coalition forces have recovered approximately 500 weapons munitions which contain degraded mustard or sarin nerve agent."



FACT: Saddam was planning on restarting his program on every level (nuclear and biological), approximately one year after U.N. sanctions were lifted. This explains why he was actively approaching North Africa for the procurement of yellow cake. This also explains why 550 metric tons of the stuff was removed from Iraq in 2008 courtesy of the United States of America.



"The Iraq Survey Group, ISG, whose intelligence analysts are managed by Charles Duelfer, a former State Department official and deputy chief of the U.N.-led arms-inspection teams, has found "hundreds of cases of activities that were prohibited" under U.N. Security Council resolutions, a senior administration official tells Insight.

"There is a long list of charges made by the U.S. that have been confirmed, but none of this seems to mean anything because the weapons that were unaccounted for by the United Nations remain unaccounted for."

Both Duelfer and his predecessor, David Kay, reported to Congress that the evidence they had found on the ground in Iraq showed Saddam's regime was in "material violation" of U.N. Security Council Resolution 1441, the last of 17 resolutions that promised "serious consequences" if Iraq did not make a complete disclosure of its weapons programs and dismantle them in a verifiable manner.

The United States cited Iraq's refusal to comply with these demands as one justification for going to war.

Both Duelfer and Kay found Iraq had "a clandestine network of laboratories and safe houses with equipment that was suitable to continuing its prohibited chemical- and biological-weapons [BW] programs," the official said. "They found a prison laboratory where we suspect they tested biological weapons on human subjects."

They found equipment for "uranium-enrichment centrifuges" whose only plausible use was as part of a clandestine nuclear-weapons program. In all these cases, "Iraqi scientists had been told before the war not to declare their activities to the U.N. inspectors," the official said.

But while the president's critics and the media might plausibly hide behind ambiguity and a lack of sensational-looking finds for not reporting some discoveries, in the case of Saddam's ballistic-missile programs they have no excuse for their silence.

"Where were the missiles? We found them," another senior administration official told Insight.

"Saddam Hussein's prohibited missile programs are as close to a slam dunk as you will ever find for violating United Nations resolutions," the first official said. Both senior administration officials spoke to Insight on condition that neither their name nor their agency be identified, but their accounts of what the United States has found in Iraq coincided in every major area.

When former weapons inspector Kay reported to Congress in January that the United States had found "no stockpiles" of forbidden weapons in Iraq, his conclusions made front-page news. But when he detailed what the ISG had found in testimony before the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence last October, few took notice.

Among Kay's revelations, which officials tell Insight have been amplified in subsequent inspections in recent weeks:

A prison laboratory complex that may have been used for human testing of BW agents and "that Iraqi officials working to prepare the U.N. inspections were explicitly ordered not to declare to the U.N." Why was Saddam interested in testing biological-warfare agents on humans if he didn't have a biological-weapons program?
"Reference strains" of a wide variety of biological-weapons agents were found beneath the sink in the home of a prominent Iraqi BW scientist. "We thought it was a big deal," a senior administration official said. "But it has been written off [by the press] as a sort of 'starter set.'"
New research on BW-applicable agents, brucella and Congo-Crimean hemorrhagic fever, and continuing work on ricin and aflatoxin that were not declared to the United Nations.
A line of unmanned aerial vehicles, UAVs, or drones, "not fully declared at an undeclared production facility and an admission that they had tested one of their declared UAVs out to a range of 500 kilometers [311 miles], 350 kilometers [217 miles] beyond the permissible limit."
"Continuing covert capability to manufacture fuel propellant useful only for prohibited Scud-variant missiles, a capability that was maintained at least until the end of 2001 and that cooperating Iraqi scientists have said they were told to conceal from the U.N."
"Plans and advanced design work for new long-range missiles with ranges up to at least 1,000 kilometers [621 miles] — well beyond the 150-kilometer-range limit [93 miles] imposed by the U.N. Missiles of a 1,000-kilometer range would have allowed Iraq to threaten targets throughout the Middle East, including Ankara [Turkey], Cairo [Egypt] and Abu Dhabi [United Arab Emirates]."
In addition, through interviews with Iraqi scientists, seized documents and other evidence, the ISG learned the Iraqi government had made "clandestine attempts between late 1999 and 2002 to obtain from North Korea technology related to 1,300-kilometer-range [807 miles] ballistic missiles — probably the No Dong — 300-kilometer-range [186 miles] antiship cruise missiles and other prohibited military equipment," Kay reported.

In testimony before Congress on March 30, Duelfer, revealed the ISG had found evidence of a "crash program" to construct new plants capable of making chemical- and biological-warfare agents.

The ISG also found a previously undeclared program to build a "high-speed rail gun," a device apparently designed for testing nuclear-weapons materials. That came in addition to 500 tons of natural uranium stockpiled at Iraq's main declared nuclear site south of Baghdad, which International Atomic Energy Agency spokesman Mark Gwozdecky acknowledged to Insight had been intended for "a clandestine nuclear-weapons program."

In taking apart Iraq's clandestine procurement network, Duelfer said his investigators had discovered that "the primary source of illicit financing for this system was oil smuggling conducted through government-to-government protocols negotiated with neighboring countries [and] from kickback payments made on contracts set up through the U.N. oil-for-food program."

What the president's critics and the media widely have portrayed as the most dramatic failure of the U.S. case against Saddam has been the claimed failure to find "stockpiles" of chemical and biological weapons. But in a June 2003 Washington Post op-ed, former chief U.N. weapons inspector Rolf Ekeus called such criticism "a distortion and a trivialization of a major threat to international peace and security."

The October 2002 National Intelligence Estimate on Iraqi Weapons of Mass Destruction concluded that Saddam "probably has stocked at least 100 metric tons [MT] and possibly as much as 500 MT of CW [chemical warfare] agents — much of it added in the last year."

That assessment was based, in part, on conclusions contained in the final report from U.N. weapons inspectors in 1999, which highlighted discrepancies in what the Iraqis reported to the United Nations and the amount of precursor chemicals U.N. arms inspectors could document Iraq had imported but for which it no longer could account."

http://www.wnd.com/2004/04/24352/


I am awaiting that racist scumbag Greg F.'s FACTUAL evidence to support his claims.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 29 Feb 12 - 11:53 AM

US did find Iraq WMD
By DON KAPLAN
Last Updated: 8:57 AM, October 25, 2010
Posted: 12:44 AM, October 25, 2010

There were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq after all.
The massive cache of almost 400,000 Iraq war documents released by the WikiLeaks Web site revealed that small amounts of chemical weapons were found in Iraq and continued to surface for years after the 2003 US invasion, Wired magazine reported.
The documents showed that US troops continued to find chemical weapons and labs for years after the invasion, including remnants of Saddam Hussein's chemical weapons arsenal -- most of which had been destroyed following the Gulf War.
In August 2004, American troops were able to buy containers from locals of what they thought was liquid sulfur mustard, a blister agent, the documents revealed. The chemicals were triple-sealed and taken to a secure site.
Also in 2004, troops discovered a chemical lab in a house in Fallujah during a battle with insurgents. A chemical cache was also found in the city.


Read more: http://www.nypost.com/p/news/international/us_did_find_iraq_wmd_AYiLgNbw7pDf7AZ3RO9qnM#ixzz1nn4u4tWm


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: Silas
Date: 29 Feb 12 - 12:10 PM

Fact - there is a Lancaster Bomber on the moon.

Fact - Sir Arthur Conan Doyle verified the fact that faries really existed

Fact - Prince Phillip orderd the assasination of Diana Spencer

All have as much credibility as anything coming out of America


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 29 Feb 12 - 03:43 PM

"Fact - there is a Lancaster Bomber on the moon."

Known by personal experience to be false- As Data Manager for Clementine, I saw the RAW data coming down for the complete digital map of the moon, and nothing of that size was seen.



"Fact - Sir Arthur Conan Doyle verified the fact that faries really existed"

Please provide reference information- He may have BELIEVED this, but I have not seen any proof.



"Fact - Prince Phillip orderd the assasination of Diana Spencer"

Could be- I do not know, nor do I care.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 Feb 12 - 05:55 PM

Would a Mud Elf please delete BeardedBruce's several personal attacks on this thread?

Thanks.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 01 Mar 12 - 06:59 AM

When Greg F. comments on my posts, that is fine. When he attacks me. I will continue to point out what a scumbag he is, and why.

GregF,

Try NOT making attacks on people- you might find out that others can disagree with you without having to be a scumbag about it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 01 Mar 12 - 07:21 AM

As long as Greg F. is allowed to post attacks, I will continue to post the reasons I think hew is scum.

The following is from the thread where he proved just how much a scumbag he is:


"Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Greg F. - PM
Date: 10 Nov 11 - 02:00 PM

BB, comparing the actions of the KKK with the actions of OWS indicates that your 'sense of proportion' seems to be a bit outta whack...

"Bit outta whack", Bobert?? Hardly. It shows that he's a complete and utter frackin' IDIOT to propound somethindg so absurd.

Beardie is also the guy that, in the thread about cash only for second-hand goods, wanted us to know that the sponsor of the bill was a Dumb Ni--er.

Gimmie a break.

....

Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Max - PM
Date: 10 Nov 11 - 02:23 PM

Elves don't like to be told what to do, just an FYI, especially by folks that are not logged in. Gets them cranky.

And why would you want it removed? It so clearly shows what he is, so I feel like we should leave it as a warning for the next person that engages him. Truly, though, I would hope it would convince them NOT to engage him.

I just popped in because I its getting around that the klan was being discussed in the Wall Street thread and I just had to see how that connection was made. As a student of thread creep this one intrigued me.

I see now. You know, anything is possible when you inject some idiocy. I'm disappointed because I assumed that 2 out of 3 of you folks here were bigger and better than being drawn in like that.

Carry on, just know that these such flammable topics are aloft and to tread lightly so we don't have so much work to do back here in the shop. It's tiring to clean up all that spilled garbage, and idiots always clog our shop vac.

We have to watch this stupid thread now, thanks.

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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: beardedbruce - PM
Date: 10 Nov 11 - 02:28 PM

Very well, Max. But Gred F has crossed the line, bigtime. This is an outright lie, as can be seen by the thead in question THAT I DID NOT POST TO until today.


If this is the kind of person who encourages supporting OWS, I fail to see why ANYONE should give them any support whatsoever.

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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Greg F. - PM
Date: 10 Nov 11 - 02:31 PM

For Max and Beardie's benefit, from the archives:

Subject: RE: BS: Louisiana Makes It Illegal To Use Cash
From: pdq - PM
Date: 23 Oct 11 - 07:37 PM

Just for the record, the idiot behind this bill is a member of the Louisiana House of Representitives.

He is Black and a Democrat."


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Mar 12 - 08:21 AM

Try THIS BB, it may help.


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 01 Mar 12 - 09:31 AM

http://news.yahoo.com/ap-sources-israel-keep-us-loop-decides-strike-154338082.html


"Rogers told CNN television on Monday: "I got the sense that Israel is incredibly serious about a strike on their nuclear weapons program. It's their calculus that the administration ... is not serious about a real military consequence to Iran moving forward.
"They believe they're going to have to make a decision on their own, given the current posture of the United States," he added."


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Subject: RE: BS: Will Israel Attack Iran?
From: number 6
Date: 01 Mar 12 - 08:26 PM

Here's something of interest from the Jerusalem World News ...

Pentagon: US Air Force has plan for Iran strike

biLL


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