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BS: Christian segregationism, 2011

Jack Campin 02 Dec 11 - 08:12 AM
Georgiansilver 02 Dec 11 - 08:35 AM
GUEST,Wesley S 02 Dec 11 - 09:43 AM
GUEST,Wesley S 02 Dec 11 - 09:45 AM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Dec 11 - 09:49 AM
Greg F. 02 Dec 11 - 10:03 AM
GUEST,Wesley S 02 Dec 11 - 10:25 AM
Jack Campin 02 Dec 11 - 10:31 AM
Jack Campin 02 Dec 11 - 10:34 AM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Dec 11 - 10:35 AM
Jack the Sailor 02 Dec 11 - 11:42 AM
Greg F. 02 Dec 11 - 12:37 PM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Dec 11 - 12:43 PM
Richard Bridge 02 Dec 11 - 12:49 PM
GUEST,Paul Burke 02 Dec 11 - 12:57 PM
ranger1 02 Dec 11 - 01:03 PM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 02 Dec 11 - 01:06 PM
GUEST,Eliza 02 Dec 11 - 01:16 PM
Stilly River Sage 02 Dec 11 - 01:26 PM
pdq 02 Dec 11 - 01:32 PM
katlaughing 02 Dec 11 - 01:40 PM
McGrath of Harlow 02 Dec 11 - 01:41 PM
GUEST,Eliza 02 Dec 11 - 01:44 PM
Greg F. 02 Dec 11 - 01:59 PM
Jack the Sailor 02 Dec 11 - 02:11 PM
katlaughing 02 Dec 11 - 02:17 PM
Don Firth 02 Dec 11 - 02:17 PM
Richard Bridge 02 Dec 11 - 02:21 PM
GUEST,999 02 Dec 11 - 02:21 PM
Jack the Sailor 02 Dec 11 - 02:34 PM
Jack the Sailor 02 Dec 11 - 02:35 PM
Jim Dixon 02 Dec 11 - 03:22 PM
Bobert 02 Dec 11 - 03:48 PM
Don Firth 02 Dec 11 - 03:53 PM
Stringsinger 02 Dec 11 - 03:54 PM
Don Firth 02 Dec 11 - 03:56 PM
GUEST,999 02 Dec 11 - 03:59 PM
Jack the Sailor 02 Dec 11 - 04:43 PM
Amos 02 Dec 11 - 04:50 PM
Greg F. 02 Dec 11 - 04:51 PM
gnu 02 Dec 11 - 05:08 PM
GUEST,999 02 Dec 11 - 05:12 PM
McGrath of Harlow 02 Dec 11 - 05:17 PM
artbrooks 02 Dec 11 - 05:47 PM
Desert Dancer 02 Dec 11 - 06:05 PM
Richard Bridge 02 Dec 11 - 08:31 PM
MGM·Lion 02 Dec 11 - 11:36 PM
MGM·Lion 02 Dec 11 - 11:40 PM
MGM·Lion 02 Dec 11 - 11:42 PM
GUEST,Allan Conn 03 Dec 11 - 03:42 AM
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Subject: BS: Christian segregationism, 2011
From: Jack Campin
Date: 02 Dec 11 - 08:12 AM

Kentucky church bans mixed-race couples from membership:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/dec/01/kentucky-church-bans-interracial-couples

clarification added to the title
moderator


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian segregationism, 2011
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 02 Dec 11 - 08:35 AM

Sadly it is such actions that are NOT Christian and get true Christians a bad name.... satan is laughing his socks off!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian segregationism, 2011
From: GUEST,Wesley S
Date: 02 Dec 11 - 09:43 AM

Let's face it - they are a bunch of idiots. It's a tiny rural church of about 40 or 50 members and a total of 15 people took part in the vote. I know that in the eyes of many Mudcatters that's positive proof that all Christians and all churchs are bad. But please don't try to make the argument that this has anything to do with mainstream churchs or religion in general.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian segregationism, 2011
From: GUEST,Wesley S
Date: 02 Dec 11 - 09:45 AM

Come to think of it - even the title of this thread is way off base and misleading. Prejudicial in fact.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian segregationism, 2011
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Dec 11 - 09:49 AM

It is extraordinary that The Guardian thinks its UK readers need to know all about this.
Am I being paranoid, or are Christians being singled out for bad copy?


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Subject: RE: BS: "Some" Christian segregationism, 2011
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Dec 11 - 10:03 AM

You are most assuredly being paranoid, as per usual.

This bunch of assholes are being "singled out" for being assholes, and for hypocritically claiming to be "Christians".

Sadly, they are not alone, but part of a growing number of fundagelical "Christians"[sic] perpetrating a wide range of idiocies.


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Subject: RE: BS: "Some" Christian segregationism, 2011
From: GUEST,Wesley S
Date: 02 Dec 11 - 10:25 AM

"Sadly, they are not alone, but part of a growing number of fundagelical "Christians"[sic] perpetrating a wide range of idiocies."

And you have some facts to back that up - or is it just a personal belief? Just because the papers are able to track down and report on the anomalies doesn't make it a growing trend. Rev Phelps and his hoard are not indicative of the average church member in America.


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Subject: RE: BS: "Some" Christian segregationism, 2011
From: Jack Campin
Date: 02 Dec 11 - 10:31 AM

Why doesn't the mod who changed the title of this thread (I did NOT write "Some") just delete the whole damn thread and ban me from mebership, while they're at it?

It was bloody obvious what I meant. It was also obvious that this kind of thing has a LONG history within Christianity, is ANYTHING BUT an isolated incident, and has been the de facto practice in an informal way in sizable parts of the Christian world to the present day. Most of the churches that do it aren't stupid enough to put it in writing in the minutes; they just make would-be members uncomfortable enough that they won't come back if their faces don't fit.

I tried googling for pictures relating to "Kentucky church congregation". Spot the missing ethnicities:

http://www.neonopc.org/
http://www.madisonvillechurchofchrist.org/
First Christian Church, Murray, KY
Glasgow Baptist Church, KY


This magazine article has 13 pictures of Baptist church gatherings. All but one are all-white.

Baptist Courier

Obviously they aren't all like that, but I didn't have to try very hard to find those and I am not presenting a highly selective picture. This isn't just about a bunch of cranks. Don't kid on there isn't real issue here.


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Subject: RE: BS: WIDESPREAD Christian segregationism, 2011
From: Jack Campin
Date: 02 Dec 11 - 10:34 AM

I just saw that last article of mine had the mealy-mouthed mod's change in the title. Let's be a bit more explicit, then.


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Subject: RE: BS: "Some" Christian segregationism, 2011
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Dec 11 - 10:35 AM

Greg,of course they should be singled out, but is it an issue of international importance.
A tiny rural church in the backwoods of Kentucky?
Fifteen voted.
My suspicion is that, in the pages of The Guardian and similar, it is open season on throwing dirt at Christians just now.


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Subject: RE: BS: "Some" Christian segregationism, 2011
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Dec 11 - 11:42 AM

Jack,

I've been to many places in the Appalachian Mountains, in the Carolinas, Arkansas, Georgia, Tennessee, and Virginia quite a few times in the past few years. Except in the larger centers like Asheville, NC and Roanoke VA, You don't see many people there who are not white. I think this is for mostly for economic reasons. There are not a lot of jobs in small Mountain towns. Note that I have not traveled as much in Kentucky, but I doubt it is any different. The guy the nine people voted to ban was not a local. He is from Africa. I don't think it wise to assume racism, just because you see no people of color in the pictures.


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Subject: RE: BS: "Some" Christian segregationism, 2011
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Dec 11 - 12:37 PM

but is it an issue of international importance.

Yes.

A tiny rural church in the backwoods of Kentucky?

Ah, but then it ISN'T just this one, tiny church, is it?


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Subject: RE: BS: "Some" Christian segregationism, 2011
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Dec 11 - 12:43 PM

Er, yes it is.
And just nine people.
Hold the front page!


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Subject: RE: BS:
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 02 Dec 11 - 12:49 PM

Christian bigotry here in the UK on a huge scale: -

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/8929111/Tory-MPs-try-to-stop-civil-partnerships-in-places-of-worship.html


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Subject: RE: BS: "Some" Christian segregationism, 2011
From: GUEST,Paul Burke
Date: 02 Dec 11 - 12:57 PM

Of course they are Christians. There is no such thing as "unChristian behaviour", and an Xxxist of any sort IS one if he/ she CLAIMS to be one.

But look at the history. What beats me is why those who believe in the teachings of the guru Jesus, as told in the Gospels, want to be associated in any way with Christianity.


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Subject: RE: BS: "Some" Christian segregationism, 2011
From: ranger1
Date: 02 Dec 11 - 01:03 PM

My two cents, not that anyone is going to give a rat's ass: Yes, what that one church in Kentucky did was morally wrong. However, it does seem to be just as small-minded to make the sweeping statement that all Christians are that way.

And keep in mind that I'm not a Christian.


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Subject: RE: BS: "Some" Christian segregationism, 2011
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 02 Dec 11 - 01:06 PM

holding a biblical position is not bigotry.to deny christians the right of conscience is not too clever.i would presume "gay churches" have the right to conduct ceremonies-though i could be mistaken.
as to race the kentucky church is way out.there is only one race,- the human race though some have held that the black "races"were less evolved .but that is certainly not a biblical position.


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Subject: RE: BS: "Some" Christian segregationism, 2011
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 02 Dec 11 - 01:16 PM

'Melvin Thomson the church member who crafted the vote' declares he isn't racist... Reminds me of the advocates of apartheid in South Africa, who always maintained they weren't racist, they just liked to keep the races apart! I don't know of any verses in the Bible which comment on mixed race partnerships, let alone forbid them, but perhaps I haven't read enough. My local C of E village church welcomed with open arms myself and my black husband. We are both involved in many ways with the church, and my husband isn't even a Christian, he's a Muslim. The Bishop of Norwich gave my husband a lovely blessing at the altar during Communion one Sunday. I've never heard of any British Christian church banning mixed race couples, it would be extraordinary and disgraceful. I don't believe any congregation here would tolerate such bigotry. Please don't judge us by this strange and tiny minority.


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Subject: RE: BS: "Some" Christian segregationism, 2011
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 02 Dec 11 - 01:26 PM

Many churches have defacto segregation - parishoners choose where they are most comfortable - you'll find a lot of African American churches in those communities (in particular, look for the A.M.E. in the name).

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: "Some" Christian segregationism, 2011
From: pdq
Date: 02 Dec 11 - 01:32 PM

How many White attendees were there at Jeramiah Wright's church?


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Subject: RE: BS: "Some" Christian segregationism, 2011
From: katlaughing
Date: 02 Dec 11 - 01:40 PM

Jack, as the "mealy-mouthed mod" to whom you refer, I added a clarification to the title as is a mod's prerogative. Your title seemed, to me, a broad generalisation, and, like ranger1, I am not Christian, so no bias.

kat - mod


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Subject: RE: BS: "Some" Christian segregationism, 2011
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Dec 11 - 01:41 PM

Why weren't the quote marks put on "Christian", since I don't think many Christians would count them as worthy the name?


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Subject: RE: BS: "Some" Christian segregationism, 2011
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 02 Dec 11 - 01:44 PM

Good point McGrath. And the words Christian and segregation don't belong together IMO.


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Subject: RE: BS: "Some" Christian segregationism, 2011
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Dec 11 - 01:59 PM

... to make the sweeping statement that all Christians are that way.

Which no one has done.


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Subject: RE: BS: "Some" Christian segregationism, 2011
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Dec 11 - 02:11 PM

Greg, Yes and no. No one has said "all" but sweeping generalizations have been made.

>>It was bloody obvious what I meant. It was also obvious that this kind of thing has a LONG history within Christianity, is ANYTHING BUT an isolated incident, and has been the de facto practice in an informal way in sizable parts of the Christian world to the present day. Most of the churches that do it aren't stupid enough to put it in writing in the minutes; they just make would-be members uncomfortable enough that they won't come back if their faces don't fit.<<


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Subject: RE: BS: "Some" Christian segregationism, 2011
From: katlaughing
Date: 02 Dec 11 - 02:17 PM

Okay, I give up. I'll take out "some" and leave it as the original. Fight it out as you will.

As for quotation marks on Christian...we are not that intuitive, McGrath!

As to Christian and segregation...reflects an opinion, in the title or not. More to debate about, eh?:-)

kat - mod


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Subject: RE: BS: "Some" Christian segregationism, 2011
From: Don Firth
Date: 02 Dec 11 - 02:17 PM

Fifteen people vote for a bigoted measure and ALL Christians are to blame?

Take a good look in a mirror if you want to see what a bigot looks like!!

Without going into my own religious beliefs—or lack thereof!—there is a church within a few blocks of where I live that distinguishes itself by its welcoming policy and the level of its public service to the community, which include serving free meals daily and searching out free or low-cost housing for people on their beam's end. And all this without having to "pay for the soup by listening to a sermon." In fact, there are five churches in this part of the city who cooperate in this endeavor.

This particular church, Central Lutheran Church of the Holy Trinity, has two pastors, one a young woman, and the other, a very large black man who wears a gold earring.

This from Central Lutheran's website:
. . . we are located in the Capitol Hill neighborhood of Seattle. We hope you will take a look around and learn a bit about us and then choose to visit us in person on a Sunday morning. As you visit us here or in person, you'll learn that we are a vibrant faith community passionate about justice and sharing God's love for all people. We are a place where you can engage questions of faith and explore life's deeper meaning. We're a place where you can find community and support. We're a place where you'll find great music and joyful worship. Gay, straight, single, married, young or old, you are welcome here and we look forward to meeting you.
Central Lutheran, as are the other five churches I mentioned, are signatories to the "Affirmation of Welcome," which, in part, reads as follows:
As a community of God striving to be inclusive and open to diversity, we, the members of Central Lutheran Church, welcome all people to join us as we struggle to better understand the mysteries of God's teaching and purposes for us. Although our world can seem to be a place of alienation and brokenness, Christ calls us to reconciliation and wholeness. We are challenged by Christ to care for, to love, to understand and to listen to each other, regardless of our race, age, gender, marital status, physical and mental abilities, sexual/affectional orientation, national origin, or economic status. We celebrate the special gifts that each has to bring!
This church provides office space for the national headquarters of the Lutheran Peace Fellowship. My wife was Northwest Regional Director for something like twelve years and she did such an effective job that they decided to move the national headquarters here! The church has participated in demonstrations for a number of causes, and it has conducted several same-sex marriage ceremonies (whether state law choses to recognize them or not).

Take a look at Central Lutheran's web site.   HERE.   On the "about us" page, the three little girls in the center photo would probably give that Kentucky church wall-eyed fits!

When someone starts lambasting all Christians for the idiocy of some individual churches—or blames all Muslims for the hate-filled behavior of some—or accepts without question stereotypes of Jews without knowing any Jews, it tends to get my dander up!

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian segregationism, 2011
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 02 Dec 11 - 02:21 PM

The philosophical question is when does prejudice (objectionable) become learning from experience (desirable survival trait)?


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Subject: RE: BS: "Some" Christian segregationism, 2011
From: GUEST,999
Date: 02 Dec 11 - 02:21 PM

Long article but worth the read.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian segregationism, 2011
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Dec 11 - 02:34 PM

Kat, I thought you were kind to Jack in doing what you did. You could have accepted his gracious offer.

"Why doesn't the mod who changed the title of this thread (I did NOT write "Some") just delete the whole damn thread and ban me from mebership, while they're at it?"

Even when you said "broad generalization" you were being kind. When to said "some" you were being kind. It was nine people.

To accurately describe the incident, it should be "BS:9 ban mixed couples in KY church.

Or even better, mudcatter demonstrates lack of perspective.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian segregationism, 2011
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Dec 11 - 02:35 PM

"How many White attendees were there at Jeramiah Wright's church? "

As many as want to be there, I would guess.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian segregationism, 2011
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 02 Dec 11 - 03:22 PM

Sometimes I envy the Muslims. They have only one simple creed:

There is no god but God, and Muhammad is his prophet.

If you can say that sincerely, you're a Muslim. If you can't, you aren't. Muslims argue about a lot of things, but they don't get into arguments about who is a Muslim and who isn't.

Christians have tried making creeds. There's a bunch of them: the Nicene Creed, the Apostles' Creed, the Chalcedonian Creed, Athanasian Creed, and more. On top of that, they have various Confessions of Faith, Catechisms, manifestos and what-not. None of them are simple, and your everyday Christian doesn't pay much attention to them anyway.

A long, long time ago, I got into a long series of discussions with a conservative Christian minister about doctrine. He was trying to convert me. I had married a woman who was nominally a member of his church, although she had her private doubts. He failed to convince me to join, but I did take him seriously and I learned some things from him.

He produced lots of Bible verses to support the idea that the essence of Christianity is this: Christ died for your sins. If you believe that, you're a Christian—regardless of what other crazy things you might believe. And if you don't believe that, you're not a Christian, regardless of how high an esteem you might have for Jesus and his teachings.

Ironically, I accepted his definition, and consequently decided I was not a Christian. I have maintained that position for 40+ years, and I see no reason to change it.

So, to all you who want to argue whether the members of the Gulnare Free Will Baptist Church are "true Christians" or not—I ask: Do they believe that Christ died for their sins? If they do, they're Christians. If they don't, they're not. It's that simple. Case closed.

Oh, I realize that won't put an end to the arguments. But hopefully it will change the terms of the argument to something that makes more sense to everybody.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian segregationism, 2011
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Dec 11 - 03:48 PM

Here in Charlotte, NC, they have "Christian private schools" which are de facto segregated... No blacks in most of them...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian segregationism, 2011
From: Don Firth
Date: 02 Dec 11 - 03:53 PM

"Do they believe that Christ died for their sins? If they do, they're Christians. If they don't, they're not."

Sorry, Jack, it's not that simple and the case is most definitely not closed. That's ONE minister's interpretation of what Christianity is all about. Granted, there are a number of denominations that adhere to this, but not all! Not by a long sight!

This does NOT determine who is a Christian and who is not.

And I think you'll find that Islam is not anywhere near as simple as you seem to think it is. I've talked with a few Muslims of my acquaintance and they are just as splintered as Chistians are. God, Allah, or Big Daddy didn't make Himself (or Herself, in case it's Big Mama) all that clear on the matter, so pronouncements along that line tell you more about the person making the pronouncement than they do about the religion.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian segregationism, 2011
From: Stringsinger
Date: 02 Dec 11 - 03:54 PM

Bigotry and racism has to be isolated as human behavior that is sociopathic regardless from whence it comes. Segregation implies that there are those who are not worthy of
human compassion; those practicing segregation are dysfunctional people.

This sets aside religious, political or ideological considerations.

"Some" people behave in a mean manner regardless of what they profess to believe.

Oddly enough, some of this meanness becomes institutionalized when dysfunctional
people get together.

Look at what's going on today in our Capitalistic system and this behavior will come of no surprise to anyone.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian segregationism, 2011
From: Don Firth
Date: 02 Dec 11 - 03:56 PM

Sorry. Not Jack. Jim.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian segregationism, 2011
From: GUEST,999
Date: 02 Dec 11 - 03:59 PM

"Oddly enough, some of this meanness becomes institutionalized when dysfunctional people get together."

Beware the power of stupid people in large groups!


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian segregationism, 2011
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Dec 11 - 04:43 PM

Actually to me the schism in that little church seems more aimed at keeping that one couple out that anything else. Maybe the reporter should have asked the 9 if they were "petty" instead of "racist."


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian segregationism, 2011
From: Amos
Date: 02 Dec 11 - 04:50 PM

IS it just an obtuse delight in fractiousness? Or has it really not sunk in that any word can have multiple meanings, and arguing them against each other is an exercise in wheel-spinology?

FOr example, a Christian can be someone who follows the teachings or philosophy attributed to Christ as presented in the King James bible OR someone who follows all the teachings of Christ, including those that were expurgated during the formative centuries of the various churches and orghanizations. OR it can mean "someone who belongs to a group calling itself Christian, regardless of its actual tenets".

Maybe we should use less ambiguous words.


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian segregationism, 2011
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Dec 11 - 04:51 PM

I'm sure the 9 would say that they were just following God's orders.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian segregationism, 2011
From: gnu
Date: 02 Dec 11 - 05:08 PM

Just when ya think things are getting better. Sad indeed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian segregationism, 2011
From: GUEST,999
Date: 02 Dec 11 - 05:12 PM

They'll announce something or other by Monday, I'm pretty sure.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian segregationism, 2011
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Dec 11 - 05:17 PM

Fundamental to Christianity, as to Islam, is the principle that all human beings are essentially equal.

People who don't accept this may hold on to the name, but they are fooling themselves. They shouldn't be allowed to fool anyone else.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian segregationism, 2011
From: artbrooks
Date: 02 Dec 11 - 05:47 PM

Free Will Baptists are not exactly mainstream Christians. This was in the article the OP cited - the last paragraph. The person quoted is the Executive Secretary of the sect:

"It's been a non-issue with us," Burden said, adding that many interracial couples attend Free Will Baptist churches. He said the Pike County church acted on its own. Burden said the association can move to strip the local church of its affiliation with the national denomination if it's not resolved.

A slow news day in the UK, eh?


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian segregationism, 2011
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 02 Dec 11 - 06:05 PM

Pastor At Kentucky Church That Banned Interracial Couples Calls For Vote To Reverse Decision

'The lead pastor at the Kentucky church that banned interracial couples from becoming members or participating in certain worship activities now expects that ban to be overturned. Gulnare Free Will Baptist Church, a small congregation in Pike County, Kentucky, voted to ban such couples Sunday, months after a former pastor originally drafted a resolution decreeing the policy.

'But after outrage from local residents, local religious leaders, and the National Association of Free Will Baptists, current pastor Stacy Stepp told the Appalachian News-Express that he expected state and national Free Will Baptist officials to overturn the ban. He has also called for a new vote on the matter, perhaps as early as this Sunday, according to the Lexington Herald-Leader. The ban was instituted in a 9-6 vote of church members Sunday, though much of the 40-member crowd abstained. "We're going to get it resolved," Stepp said.'

More at the link.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian segregationism, 2011
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 02 Dec 11 - 08:31 PM

Where, McGrath, do you get that idea? Is the old testament not part of the bible?


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian segregationism, 2011
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 02 Dec 11 - 11:36 PM

Where indeed? I agree, Richard. + the NT for that matter ~~ "render unto Caesar...?"

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian segregationism, 2011
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 02 Dec 11 - 11:40 PM

... and, re Islam ~ surely what you say, Kevin, denies the 'humanity' of women?

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian segregationism, 2011
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 02 Dec 11 - 11:42 PM

'People who don't accept this may hold on to the name, but they are fooling themselves'
,.,.,

& who are you to say? What of the 'many mansions, eh?

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian segregationism, 2011
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 03 Dec 11 - 03:42 AM

"If you can say that sincerely, you're a Muslim. If you can't, you aren't. Muslims argue about a lot of things, but they don't get into arguments about who is a Muslim and who isn't."

I don't think that holds water though. I can recall talk show after talk show where Moslems members in the audience were denying that the London bombers were Moslems - yet the bombers themselves believed they were acting in the name of the said religion. Similar frictions within the religion! Likewise they split into factions within the religion itself. There is much sectarian conflict in certain countries between Sunnis and Shia etc.


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