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Child Ballads: US Versions

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Richie 01 Dec 11 - 12:54 PM
Richie 01 Dec 11 - 01:31 PM
Richie 05 Dec 11 - 02:48 PM
Richie 21 Dec 11 - 02:24 PM
Mick Pearce (MCP) 21 Dec 11 - 03:02 PM
Richie 21 Dec 11 - 11:57 PM
Richie 29 Dec 11 - 12:25 PM
Richie 04 Jan 12 - 10:36 AM
Richie 04 Jan 12 - 10:49 AM
Mick Pearce (MCP) 04 Jan 12 - 12:34 PM
Richie 04 Jan 12 - 12:54 PM
Richie 09 Jan 12 - 09:51 AM
GUEST,SteveG 09 Jan 12 - 02:17 PM
GUEST,Richie 10 Jan 12 - 02:19 AM
Richie 11 Jan 12 - 10:22 AM
GUEST,SteveG 11 Jan 12 - 04:38 PM
Richie 11 Jan 12 - 09:43 PM
GUEST,SteveG 12 Jan 12 - 03:15 PM
Lighter 12 Jan 12 - 07:00 PM
Richie 14 Jan 12 - 10:47 PM
Richie 14 Jan 12 - 10:52 PM
Richie 17 Jan 12 - 08:24 PM
Lighter 17 Jan 12 - 08:53 PM
Richie 17 Jan 12 - 09:53 PM
Mick Pearce (MCP) 18 Jan 12 - 07:01 AM
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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 01 Dec 11 - 12:54 PM

lyr add: TIRANTI, MY SON- Child I g.
g. By Mrs. A. Lowell, as derived from a friend.

1. 'O where have you been, Tiranti, my son?
O where have you been, my sweet little one?'
'I have been to my grandmother's; mother, make my bed soon,
For I'm sick at the heart, and I faint to lie down.'

2. 'What did you get at your grandmother's, Tiranti, my son?
What did you get at your grandmother's, my sweet little one?'
'I got eels stewed in butter; mother, make my bed soon,
For I'm sick at the heart, and I faint to lie down.'

3. 'What will you leave to your father, Tiranti, my son?
'What will you leave to your father, my sweet little one?'
'All my gold and my silver; mother, make my bed soon,
For I'm sick at the heart, and I faint to lie down.'

4. 'What will you leave to your brother, Tiranti, my son?
What will you leave to your brother, my sweet little one?'
'A full suit of mourning; mother, make my bed soon,
For I'm sick at the heart, and I faint to lie down.'

5. 'What will you leave to your mother, Tiranti, my son?
What will you leave to your mother, my sweet little one?'
'A carriage and fine horses; mother, make my bed soon,
For I'm sick to my heart, and I'm faint to lie down.'

6. 'Where'll you have your bed made, Tiranti, my son?
Where'll you have your bed made, my sweet little one?'
'In the corner of the churchyard; mother, make my bed soon,
For I'm sick to my heart, and I'm faint to lie down.'

Footnotes Child I g. :

g. 1[4]. For I'm sick at the heart, and I faint to lie down.
2[1]. What did you get at your grandmother's?
3. I got eels stewed in butter.
3 = a 8. 1 What will you leave ...
4[1] . What will you leave to your brother?
   3. A full suit of mourning.
5 = a 7. 1. leave to your mother.
    3. A carriage and fine horses.
6 = a 5.
3, 4 of a are wanting.


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 01 Dec 11 - 01:31 PM

I probably should have posted this first. Verses 5. and 8. are as they appear in the original MS, not as they normally appear.

Lyr add: TIRANTI, MY SON- Child Ia.
a. Communicated by Mrs. L.F. Wesselhoeft, of Boston, as sung to her when a child by her grandmother, Elizabeth Foster, born in Maine, who appears to have learned the bal lad of her mother about 1800.

1. 'O where have you been, Tiranti, my son?
O where have you been, my sweet little one?'
'I have been to my grandmother's; mother, make my bed soon,
For I'm sick to my heart, and I'm faint to lie down.'

2. 'What did you have for your supper, Tiranti, my son?
What did you have for your supper, my sweet little one?'
'I had eels fried in butter; mother, make my bed soon,
For I'm sick to my heart, and I'm faint to lie down.'

3. 'Where did the eels come from, Tiranti, my son?
Where did the eels come from, my sweet little one?'
'From the corner of the haystack; mother, make my bed soon,
For I'm sick to my heart, and I'm faint to lie down.'

4. 'What color were the eels, Tiranti, my son?
What color were the eels, my sweet little one?'
'They were streaked and striped; mother, make my bed soon,
For I'm sick to my heart, and I'm faint to lie down.'

5. 'Where'll you have your bed made, Tiranti, my son?
Where'll you have your bed made, my sweet little one?'
'In the corner of the churchyard; mother, make my bed soon,
For I'm sick to my heart, and I'm faint to lie down.'

6. 'What'll you give to your mother, Tiranti, my son?
What'll you give to your mother, my sweet little one?'
'A coach and six horses; mother, make my bed soon,
For I'm sick to my heart, and I'm faint to lie down.'

7 'What'll you give to your grandmother, Tiranti, my son?
What'll you give to your grandmother, my sweet little one?'
'A halter to hang her; mother, make my bed soon,
For I'm sick to my heart, and I'm faint to lie down.'

8 'What'll you give to your father, Tiranti, my son?
What'll you give to your father, my sweet little one?'
'All my gold and my silver; mother, make my bed soon,
For I'm sick to my heart, and I'm faint to lie down.'

Footnotes Child Ia. :
I. a. 1[4], faint to, an obvious corruption of fain to, is found also in b, c; d has fain wad; e, faint or fain; f, fain; g, I faint to.
N. B. 8 stands 5 in the manuscript copy, but is the last stanza in all others which have it.


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 05 Dec 11 - 02:48 PM

Hi,

Most of my US Lord randal versions are on now: http://bluegrassmessengers.com/us--canadian-versions-child-12-lord-randal.aspx

I'm guessing there are over 80 so far. Still need to put some of the music on and lyrics.

What is the source of DT version titled: "Oh Mak' my Bed Easy" ?

Richie


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 21 Dec 11 - 02:24 PM

Hi all,

I spent quite a bit on time on Lord Randal and No. 12A Billie Boy.

My US versions of No. 13 Edward: http://bluegrassmessengers.com/us-and-canadian-versions-child-13-edward.aspx

Now I'm on 14. Babylon and am having trouble soting out "Burly Burly Banks of Barby-O". Peeger Seeger does a cover of it attributed to Jonathan Moses of Orford; New Hampshire, 1942. However the lyrics are identical to the version by Elmer Barton of Quechee, Vermont; Collected in 1942 by M. Olney; From Ballads Migrant in New England.


Jonathan Moses are different at the end according to the text from from Dad's Dinner Pail and Other Songs From the Helen Hartness Flanders Collection by Debra Cowan.

Is Seeger mistaken about the source? Does anyone have Jonathan Moses text printed in a book (i.e. not on-line)?

Here are the texts compared- I can post if that's easier:
http://bluegrassmessengers.com/the-burly-burly-banks--barton-vermont-1942-.aspx

Richie


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 21 Dec 11 - 03:02 PM

Richie - just a small note re your website version from Mr.Olney. The text in the book at google The Burly, Burly Banks of Barbry O (click the Page 61 link) has a couple of minor differences:

The refrain line is given as High in the lea and the lonely O and in stanza 10 it has And it's there he ended her sweet life.

I don't know if it's different in the Eight Traditional Ballads source.

Mick


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 21 Dec 11 - 11:57 PM

TY Mick, corrections made!

Richie


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 29 Dec 11 - 12:25 PM

Hi,

Hope everyone has a great new year! Just recorded two US Child ballads collected from Nathan Hicks on his 1930s lap dulcimer:

Enjoy:

George Colon [sic]:
http://bluegrassmessengers.com/george-colon--nathan-hicks-nc-1933.aspx

Endurance [Maid Freed from the Gallows]http://bluegrassmessengers.com/endurance--nathan-hicks-nc-circa-1936.aspx

Just click on link to listen,

Richie


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 04 Jan 12 - 10:36 AM

Hi,

I'm up to Child 20 the Cruel Mother. Child gives A-M in the first edition- then N is added in 1884. Then in 1886 N and O are added. Then Q, what gives? Where is P?

Should I just give to N versions and skip P or change one to P?

Richie


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 04 Jan 12 - 10:49 AM

This is what I have Child 20- N-Q:

N. Cambell MS, II, 264. [1st N. from The English and Scottish popular ballads: Volume 2 - Page 504; 1884;]

N. Percy Papers, with no account of the derivation. [2nd N. from The English and Scottish popular ballads: Volume 2, Part 2 - Page 500; 1886; Gives O also ]


O. Pepys Ballads, V, 4, No 2, from a transcript in the Percy Papers.

P. [No P is given]

Q. 'The Cruel Mother,' Shropshire Folk-Lore, edited by Charlotte Sophia Burne, 1883-86, p. 540; "snug by Eliza Wharton and brothers, children of gipsies, habitually travelling in North Shropshire and Staffordshire, 13th July, 1885."


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 04 Jan 12 - 12:34 PM

Richie

In my Dover edition the Additions in Vol III (p502) have a note saying "N, O should be O, P, II 500: see I, 504" ie the two he added in Additions and Corrections Vol 2 should be renamed as O and P, not N and O.

A-M were given in the main text of Vol I and N was given in the Additions and Corrections to Vol I. The two in Vol II had been incorrectly named as N,O and the note in Vol III corrects that.

Mick


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 04 Jan 12 - 12:54 PM

TY Mick,

I'll make the corrections on my site.

Richie


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 09 Jan 12 - 09:51 AM

Hi,

I've put Child's A-Q on. It seems a bit odd that Child would take a verse out (Verse 11) in Version P, a broadside titled The Duke's Daughter's Cruelty. There's mention of it later and I agree with taking the verse out.

Here's what I have so far: http://bluegrassmessengers.com/english-and-other-versions-20-the-cruel-mother.aspx


Does anyone know about Hyder Rollins' broadside print dated 1638 ?

Richie


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: GUEST,SteveG
Date: 09 Jan 12 - 02:17 PM

The title doesn't appear in Rollins' Analytical Index to the Ballad Entries in the Stationers Register.

FWIW I think the broadside is the original. It was then totally an English ballad. When Child wrote his notes he wasn't aware of the broadside and all of the continental allusions in his headnotes to 20 actually belong to 21 Maid and the Palmer. What confused him was some Scottish antiquarian or broadside hack had fused onto the ballad the penance verses from 21 which didn't originally belong to 20. Somewhat ironically by about 1820 21 had just about disappeared in Scotland whereas the penance stanzas continued to prosper in Scottish and American versions of 20.


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: GUEST,Richie
Date: 10 Jan 12 - 02:19 AM

Hi,

TY-- The same information appears published by Cazden although it doesn't make it acccurate. I tried finding Rollins broadside info info but couldn't find it.

I'm still adding English and US versions.

This is a good article: http://bluegrassmessengers.com/1history-symbol-and-meaning-in-the-cruel-mother.aspx

It's attached to Recordings and Info page

Richie


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 11 Jan 12 - 10:22 AM

Hi,

I've finished putting US & Canadian versions of Child 20 Cruel Mother: http://bluegrassmessengers.com/us--canadian-versions-20-the-cruel-mother.aspx

Any US versions anyone would like to add? Does anyone know where Paul Clayton got his version?

I've started Child 21, Maid and the Palmer. I have Niles "Seven Years"-- are there any other US version of Child 21?

Richie


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: GUEST,SteveG
Date: 11 Jan 12 - 04:38 PM

Are you seriously including Niles' material.


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 11 Jan 12 - 09:43 PM

Hi,

Some people think everything Niles did was fake. I personally don't know, since I wasn't there- what he collected that was authentic. It's really impossible to tell. I believe many of the songs in his collection were authentic.

Therefore I'm including it all. Because I'm unable to make a determination of authenticity - I'm not making any determination- I'm leaving that up to you----

That's my position with Niles, Gainer, Woofter and others, who's collected versions may or may not be authentic.

Richie


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: GUEST,SteveG
Date: 12 Jan 12 - 03:15 PM

You're in very good company.
That's precisely what Child himself did.


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Lighter
Date: 12 Jan 12 - 07:00 PM

It's also interesting and worthwhile because, whatever their immediate origin, they are in fact versions of the original ballads and thus relevant to the history of the songs.

The real controversy is whether they were ever sung "in tradition" or by "the folk." But those are different questions entirely.

Are "Sir Patrick Spens," "Edward," and "The Battle of Harlaw" fakes? It may depend on what we mean by "fake."


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 14 Jan 12 - 10:47 PM

Hi,

I'm working on No. 24 Bonnie Annie and I've improved the Child Version C b.:


http://bluegrassmessengers.com/11undutiful-daughter--hannaford-devon-1890-child-c-b.aspx

The title is not supplied, not the informant. As given there's not much- plus verse 5 is missing,

Richie


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 14 Jan 12 - 10:52 PM

Hi,

Here's Bonnie and Child C a. :

http://bluegrassmessengers.com/undutiful-daughter--masters-devon-1888-child-c-a.aspx

Verse 5 is supplied from Baring-Gould also the date, title and informant are added.

Richie


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 17 Jan 12 - 08:24 PM

Hi,

I'm working on Child No. 26 The Three Crows. It's intersting that thsi is a minstrel song in the mid-1800s that was "lined out" like the old hymns. I have two early texts 1863 and 1868 but am missing the "Christy's New Songster" text whcih I thing is the same as one of the texts I have.

Anyone have "Christy's New Songster" text?

When was the "McGee McGaw" refrain added, I have a 1909 text but maybe it was earlier?

When did it start using the "When Johnny Comes Marching home" melody. Is that melody "Bonnie Doon" and Johnny Fill Up the Bowl?

Here's what I have so far: http://bluegrassmessengers.com/us--canadian-versions-26-the-three-ravens-.aspx

Richie


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Lighter
Date: 17 Jan 12 - 08:53 PM

The melodies of "Johnny Fill Up the Bowl" and "When Johnny Comes Marching Home Again" are essentially identical. The evidence is that "JFUTB" iwas in print a few months earlier.

"Ye Banks and Braes of Bonnie Doone" is the name of a song by Robert Burns. Its tune is entirely different.

The two Johnny songs were so popular during the Civil War that there would have been no reason not to adopt the melody to "The Three Crows" at that time, particularly if all a singer had was a printed copy of the words.

It's possible that the Johnny melodies originally belonged to "The Three Crows," but there's no direct evidence of this.

There appears to be no record of "The Three Ravens" between 1611 and the 1820s. The ravens became "crows" later than that - if the sparse records can be trusted.

A big "if."


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 17 Jan 12 - 09:53 PM

TY,

Davis (Trad. ballads of Virgina) and his contributors in two places point out that the song was sung to the Burns melody, "Bonny Doon."

Jabbour and a host of others say it's sung to "When Johnny Comes Marching Home Again." Are they both right? Could be?

I was wondering if there was a similarity because I'm not familiar with the Bonny Doon melody.

Richie


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 18 Jan 12 - 07:01 AM

Richie - The text of Christy's New Songster can be found here: CNS - Hathi Trust Digital Library. You can download single pages as pdfs, so you can get the two pages you need easily. (Full pdf needs a partner login).

I've put the text below.

Mick




      The Three Crows

As sung by BYRON CHRISTY, JAMES BRYANT, H.WILSON, and
             G.WRIGHTMAN


[Spoken] THREE crows they sat upon a tree,
         As black as any crows could be.
          (Spoken) Sing.
          (Repeat the above)

[Spoken] One of these crows, said unto his mate,
         What shall we do for something to eat?
          (Spoken) Sing.
          (Repeat as above)

[Spoken] 'Way on that side of yonder plain,
         There lies a horse but three days slain.
          (Spoken) Sing.
          (Repeat as above)

[Spoken] We'll jump right on to his backbone,
         And pick out his eyes, one by one.
          (Spoken) Sing.
          (Repeat as above)


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Lighter
Date: 18 Jan 12 - 09:55 AM

Mick, Richie, I just mistakenly posted a comment to the current "Twa Corbies" thread.


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 18 Jan 12 - 11:16 AM

Nice one Mick!!

I've got the other two versions on my site from the 1860's and also the first (McGee McGar [sic]) songbook version from 1909.

I'll post at some point.

First I'd like to point out that the DT's "Two Ravens"-

THE TWO RAVENS- From Mountain Minstrelsy of Pennsylvania, Shoemaker 1931 Long popular in Clinton County, One of Clarence Walton's favorites.

and the recent post:

The Legendary Ballads of England and Scotland compiled & edited by John S. Roberts, Chandos Classics 1900

is by Allan Cunningham, 1925.

It was written by Cunningham based on the extant versions and is not traditional.

Interestingly- there's already a first version collected of Cunningham's Scottish ballad in the US by Mellinger Henry, his A version, c. 1900. After Cunningham's Two Crows was published in Cleveland's Compendium (Philadephia, 1848, with subsequent editions reprinted in 1859 etc.) it began surfacing as a traditional ballad, but it was learned from this book- directly or second hand. The orginal, from Allan Cunningham, was printed in 1825 in Cunningham's Songs of Scotland, Vol. I, pp. 289-290. Cunningham rewrote Scott's (See Twa Corbies- Child A a.) and Ravenscroft's text (See Child A Three Ravens). Here's Cunningham's original:


THE TWO RAVENS [1] Cunningham 1825

There were two ravens sat on a tree
Large and black as black might be;
And one unto the other gan say,
Where shall we go and dine to-day?
Shall we go dine by the wild salt sea?
Shall we go dine 'neath the greenwood tree?

As I sat on the deep sea sand,
I saw a fair ship nigh at land,
I waved my wings, I bent my beak,
The ship sunk, and I heard a shriek;
There lie the sailors, one, two, three,
I shall dine by the wild salt sea.

Come, I will show ye a sweeter sight,
A lonesome glen, and a new-slain knight;
His blood yet on the grass is hot,
His sword half-drawn, his shafts unshot,
And no one kens that he lies there,
But his hawk, his hound, and his lady fair.

His hound is to the hunting gane,
His hawk to fetch the wild fowl hame,
His lady's away with another mate,
So we shall make our dinner sweet;
Our dinner's sure, our feasting free,
Come, and dine by the greenwood tree.

Ye shall sit on his white hause-bane,[2]
I will pike out his bony blue e'en;
Ye'll take a tress of his yellow hair,
To theak yere nest when it grows bare;
The gowden[3] down on his young chin
Will do to rowe my young ones in.

O, cauld and bare will his bed be,
When winter storms sing in the tree;
At his head a turf, at his feet a stone,
He will sleep, nor hear the maiden's moan:
O'er his white bones the birds shall fly,
The wild deer bound and the foxes cry.

Footnotes:
1 One of the most poetical and picturesque ballads existing.
2. The neck-bone — a phrase for the neck.
3. Golden.


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 18 Jan 12 - 01:05 PM

Here's the other 1863 minstrel text:

From: Frank Brower's Black Diamond Songster and Ebony Jester (New York: Dick and Fitzgerald, [c. 1863]), pp. 30-31. The ballad, titled "The Four Vultures. A Burlesque Quartette," is prefaced by the description: "As sung by Frank Brower, Ephe Horn, Nelse Seymour, and Charley Fox. (Always received with shouts of laughter.)"

THE FOUR VULTURES- Frank Brower's Black Diamond Songster and Ebony Jester (New York: Dick and Fitzgerald, [c. 1863]), pp. 30-31


SPOKEN (slowly and precisely).
There were three crows sat on a tree,
And they were black as black could be.
Brothers, sing!

QUARTETTE.
There were three crows sat on a tree,
And they were black as black could be.

SPOKEN.
One of them said unto his mate,
"What shall we do for grub to eat!"-
Brothers, sing!

QUARTETTE.
One of them said unto his mate,
"What shall we do for grub to eat?"

SPOKEN.
There lies a horse on yonder plain,
Whose bod-y has been late-ly slain.
Brothers, sing!

QUARTETTE.
There lies a horse on yonder plain,
Whose bod-y has been late-ly slain.

SPOKEN.
Let's perch ourselves on his back-bone,
And pick his eyes out, one by one!
Brothers, sing!

QUARTETTE.
Let's perch ourselves on his back-bone,
And pick his eyes out, one by one!

SPOKEN.
The devil thought to in-jure me,
By cutting down my apple-tree,
Brothers, sing!

QUARTETTE.
The devil thought to in-jure me,
By cutting down my apple-tree.

SPOKEN.
He did not in-jure me at all,
For I had apples all the fall.
Brothers, sing!

QUARTETTE.
He did not in-jure me at all,
For I had apples all the fall.


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 18 Jan 12 - 11:14 PM

Hi,

I've posted the first batch of US versions (Three Ravens/Crows)- over 40 and only have a few more to go that I have accessible:

http://bluegrassmessengers.com/us--canadian-versions-26-the-three-ravens-.aspx

Thanks for your help and imput,

Richie


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 19 Jan 12 - 10:33 AM

Curiously Peggy Seeger's version has lyricsfouund in the 1863 Minstrel version I posted above. Where did her version originate?

The Three Ravens
Peggy Seeger, The Long Harvest, Record Seven, Argo (Z)DA 72 1975

There were three crows sat on yonder's tree
They're just as black as crows can be
One of them said to the mate:
What shall we do for grub to eat?

There's an old dead horse in yonder's lane
Whose body has been lately slain
We'll fly upon his old breast bone
And pluck his eyes out one by one

Old Satan tried to injure me
By cutting down my apple tree
He could not injure me at all
For I had apples all the fall

Richie


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 29 Jan 12 - 05:17 PM

Hi,

I'm working on Child 39, Tam Lin. Thre are two version J's or at least this version is listed under J:

Queen of the Fairies- Version K [appears under the title J but should be K or perhaps a supplimental version not intented to be lettered] Child 39 Tam Lin

'The Queen of the Fairies,' Macmath Manuscript, p. 57. "Taken down by me 14th October, 1886, from the recitation of Mr. Alexander Kirk, Inspector of Poor, Dairy, in the Stewartry of Kirkcudbright, who learned it about fifty years ago from the singing of David Ray, Barlay, Balmaclellan."

1    The maid that sits in Katherine's Hall,
Clad in her robes so black,
She has to yon garden gone,
For flowers to flower her hat.

Subsequent versions added K-N seem to have skipped this version.

Can anyone clear this up?

Richie


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: GUEST,SteveG
Date: 30 Jan 12 - 02:23 PM

Richie
I think we have here exactly the same error as noted previously.

If we take into account that the first J was printed in the appendix to Part 2 and that the second J was printed in the appendix to Part 6 I think we can excuse this error. Part 2 was published in June 1884 and Part 6 in July 1889. 5 years is a long time in this business.

I only have the 5 Dover volumes. It would be interesting to know what the Loomis Edition did about this.


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: GUEST,SteveG
Date: 30 Jan 12 - 04:04 PM

Mark from Loomis posted an answer to my request on the Indiana Ballad List. Apparently Loomis just shunted the letters along where the errors occurred. Common sense triumphs. He said he could only remember one example but we have 2 here already including Child 20.

Richie, if you come across any more I'll put them all together on various lists. Plenty of us are still just working from the Dover edition.


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 06 Feb 12 - 10:29 AM

Hi Steve,

I changed the letters, rather than have 2 J's. This was done by Child when the same mistake was made.

I've added Hares on the Mountain as an Appendix to The Twa Magicians. I'm having trouble finding US versions aside from 'Roll Your Leg over." Anyone know any US versions and have text?

I've finished roughing in Child No. 45 King John and the Bishop: http://bluegrassmessengers.com/45-king-john-and-the-bishop.aspx

Why isn't the oldest text c. 1550 entitled, A Tale of Henry III and the Archbishop of Canterbury (A Tale of King John and the Archbishop of Canterbury) from the library of Corpus Christi College, Oxford- MS. 255 mentioned in ballad index and on-line?

I've included it here: http://bluegrassmessengers.com/a-tale-of-henry-iii-and-the-archbishop-c1550.aspx

I have several US versions- am I missing any? Anyone have more?

1) The Bishop of Canterbury- Hubbard (Utah) c.1875

2) The Bishop of Old Canterbury- Hall (CT) 1907

3) King John and the Bishop- M. E. E. (R.I.) 1907

4) King John and the Bishop- Vaughan (MI) 1937

5) The Bishop of Canterbury- Ford (CA) 1938

6) The King's Three Questions- MacNelly (Maine) 1940


View them here: http://bluegrassmessengers.com/us--canada-versions-44-king-john-and-the-bishop.aspx

Richie


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: GUEST,SteveG
Date: 06 Feb 12 - 01:12 PM

Personally I'm very suspicious of all versions of Twa Magicians, and I'm glad to see you are putting Hares on the Mountains in an appendix as both could at a stretch derive from continental versions independently.

KJ
You have the MacNally version from Maine but there are 3 other versions in Flanders, Ancient Ballads.

There's a pre 1850s version in the Stevens Douglass Manuscript.

There are 2 prose versions in MacEdward Leach 'Lower Labrador Coast

And Niles gives a version from Ratliff which doesn't seem to have suffered much at his hands.


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: GUEST,SteveG
Date: 06 Feb 12 - 04:52 PM

Richie
I tried to print off the 1550 text from your website without much success. Do you know anywhere it can be printed off from the net easily? Or please could you point me in the direction of an easily accessible copy. Is it given in any well-known books?


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 06 Feb 12 - 05:12 PM

Ritchie - the catalogue entry for Corpus mss was in a catalogue of mss published in 1852 by Henry Coxe under the Henry title - Catalogus codicum mss. qui in collegiis aulisque Oxoniensibus ...: Volume 2 - Page 107 Entry 24 (with a couple of slight differences in the quoted first two lines: shew and Jhon. Why it was under the Henry name I can't imagine.

Steve - you can copy the text by highlighting the first letter A then press Ctrl+Shift+End, which will select to the end of the text, then press Ctrl-C to copy it (or right-click/Copy), then paste it into an emtpy text file with Ctrl-V(or right-click/Paste).


Mick


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: GUEST,SteveG
Date: 06 Feb 12 - 05:30 PM

Ta Mick. I'll try that.


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: GUEST,SteveG
Date: 06 Feb 12 - 05:56 PM

Mission accompished, Ta. I couldn't get the Control/shift/end to do anything but I managed to highlight from the bottom upwards and then followed the rest, a doddle.

When I get time I'll do a close comparison between this, the Percy version and the earliest print version.


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 08 Feb 12 - 09:36 AM

Hi,

In Child's narrative for No. 46 Captain Weddderburn he writes at teh beginning of the third paragraph:

We have had of the questions six, A 11, 12, What is greener than the grass? in No 1, A 15, C 13, D 5; What's higher than the tree? in C 9, D 1; What's war than a woman's wiss? ("than a woman was") A 15, C 13, D 5; What's deeper than the sea? A 13, B 5, C 9, D 1.

Since there is no D version, what's going on? Is the D version missing?


Richie


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 09 Feb 12 - 09:14 AM

Hi,

Folk info has a version of 46 Wedderburn here:http://www.folkinfo.org/songs/displaysong.php?songid=406&pagenum=1&reverse=

What is the source? I know it's not from Journal of the English Folk Dance and Song Society, Dec 1951. The notes by Gilchrist are- but not the text and music.

Anyone?

Richie


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 09 Feb 12 - 09:57 AM

Ritchie -

If you look at folkinfo's abc which includes the song (X:102), the source seems to be one of Helen Creighton's recordings. The relevant headers are:


T:Captain Wedderburn's Courtship
B:Journal of the English Folk Dance and Song Society, Dec 1951
F:http://www.folkinfo.org/songs
S:Tom Young, Nova Scotia, July 23, 1937
Z:Doreen H Senior and Helen Creighton


ie Source is Tom Young, transcribed by Senior and Creighton.

JEFDSS, Dec 3, 1951 does include an article by Senior and Creighton: Folk Songs Collected In The Province of Nova Scotia, Canada, which I presume is the source. This document The Creighton-Senior Collaboration (pdf) has an account of the trip and the collection of the song (p23, para 3).


Mick


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 09 Feb 12 - 10:08 AM

Mick

Google search didn't find lyrics. You're right, what's worse is I already have it on my site:

http://bluegrassmessengers.com/captain-wedderburns-courtship--young-ns-1937.aspx

TY

Richie


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: GUEST,SteveG
Date: 09 Feb 12 - 10:55 AM

Re ABCD, if you look carefully he is actually referring to Child No 1
Riddles WE.


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 16 Feb 12 - 11:27 PM

Thanks Steve for the clarification--- Sorry for this long post. I'm confused about Twa Brothers Child E; When I added Motherwell text from page 60 it was not the same but a collation- see at the bottom of this post. Where is the collation from? I know it's found on p. 270 the Ballad Minstrelsy of Scotland.


The Twa Brothers- Child Version E
Motherwell's Minstrelsy, p. 60.

1    There were twa brothers at the scule,
And when they got awa,
'It's will ye play at the stane-chucking,
Or will ye play at the ba,
Or will ye gae up to yon hill head,
And there we'll warsel a fa?'

2    'I winna play at the stane-chucking,
Nor will I play at the ba;
But I'll gae up to yon bonnie green hill,
And there we'll warsel a fa.'

3    They warsled up, they warsled down,
Till John fell to the ground;
A dirk fell out of William's pouch,
And gave John a deadly wound.

4    'O lift me upon your back,
Take me to yon well fair,
And wash my bluidy wounds oer and oer,
And they'll neer bleed nae mair.'

5    He's lifted his brother upon his back,
Taen him to yon well fair;
He's wash'd his bluidy wounds oer and oer,
But they bleed ay mair and mair.

6    'Tak ye aff my holland sark,
And rive it gair by gair,
And row it in my bluidy wounds,
And they'll neer bleed nae mair.'

7    He's taken aff his holland sark,
And torn it gair by gair;
He's rowit it in his bluidy wounds,
But they bleed ay mair and mair.

8    'Tak now aff my green cleiding,
And row me saftly in,
And tak me up to yon kirk-style,
Whare the grass grows fair and green.'

9    He's taken aff the green cleiding,
And rowed him saftly in;
He's laid him down by yon kirk-style,
Whare the grass grows fair and green.

10    'What will ye say to your father dear,
When ye gae hame at een?'
'I'll say ye're lying at yon kirk-style,
Whare the grass grows fair and green.'

11    'O no, O no, my brother dear,
O you must not say so;
But say that I'm gane to a foreign land,
Whare nae man does me know.'

12    When he sat in his father's chair,
He grew baith pale and wan:
'O what blude's that upon your brow?
O dear son, tell to me;'
'It is the blude of my gray steed,
He wadna ride wi me.'

13    'O thy steed's blude was neer sae red,
Nor eer sae dear to me:
O what blude's this upon your cheek?
O dear son, tell to me;'
'It is the blude of my greyhound,
He wadna hunt for me.'

14    'O thy hound's blude was neer sae red,
Nor eer sae dear to me:
O what blude's this upon your hand?
O dear son, tell to me;'
'It is the blude of my gay goss-hawk,
He wadna flee for me.'

15    'O thy hawk's blude was neer sae red,
Nor eer sae dear to me:
O what blude's this upon your dirk?
Dear Willie, tell to me;'
'It is the blude of my ae brother,
O dule and wae is me!'

16    'O what will ye say to your father?
Dear Willie, tell to me;'
'I'll saddle my steed, and awa I'll ride,
To dwell in some far countrie.'

17    'O when will ye come hame again?
Dear Willie, tell to me;'
'When sun and mune leap on yon hill,
And that will never be.'

18    She turnd hersel right round about,
And her heart burst into three:
'My ae best son is deid and gane,
And my tother ane I'll neer see.'
______________

From: Minstrelsy: Ancient and Modern, with an historical intr.p. 60 William Motherwell - 1827

THE TWA BROTHERS

The domestic tragedy which this affecting ballad commemorates is not without precedent in real history; nay, we are almost inclined to believe that it originated in the following melancholy event:—

"This year, 1589, in the moneth of July, ther falls out a sad accident, as a further warneing that God was displeased with the familie. The Lord Sommervill haveing come from Cowthally, earlie in the morning, in regaird the weather was hott, he had ridden hard to be at the Drum be ten a clock, which haveing done, he laid him down to rest The servant, with his two sones, William Master of Sommervill and John his brother, went with the horses to ane Shott of land, called the Prety Shott, directly opposite the front of the house where there was some meadow ground for grassing the horses, and willowes to shaddow themselves from the heat They had not long continued in this place, when the Master of Somervill efter some litle rest awakeing from his sleep and finding his pistolles that lay hard by him wett with the dew he began to rub and dry them, when unhappily one of them went off the ratch, being lying upon his knee, and the muzel turned syde-ways, the ball strocke his brother John directly in the head, and killed him outright, soe that his sorrowful brother never had one word from him, albeit he begged it with many teares."—Memorie of the Somervilies, Vol. I. p. 467.

The reader will find in the first volume of "Popular Ballads and Songs" another edition of this ballad, which, in point of merit, is perhaps superior to the present copy. The third stanza of that edition was however imperfect, and the ingenious editor, Mr. Jamieson, has supplied four lines to render it complete. Excellent though his interpolations generally are, it will be seen that, in this instance, he has quite misconceived the scope and tendency of the piece on which he was working, and in consequence has supplied a reading with which the rest of his own copy is at complete variance, and which at same time sweeps away the deep impression this simple ballad would otherwise have made upon the feelings; for it is almost unnecessary to mention that its touching interest is made to centre in the boundless sorrow, and cureless remorse, of him who had been the unintentional cause of his brother's death—and in the solicitude which that high-minded and generous spirit expresses, even in the last agonies of nature, for the safety and fortunes of the truly wretched and unhappy survivor. Mr. Jamieson's addition is given below.—By that addition this ballad has been altered in one of its most distinctive and essential features; hence the present copy, which preserves the genuine reading in the stanza referred to, though it might have derived considerable improve- ments in other particulars from the one given by Mr. Jamieson, has, on the whole, been preferred.   The addition to the stanza in question is inclosed by crotchets.

They warstled up, they warstled down,   
The lee lang simmer's day;
[And nane was near to part the strife   
That raise atween them tway,
Till out and Willie's drawn his sword,   
And did his brother slay.]

__________________

There were twa brothers at the scule,
And when they got awa'—
"It's will ye play at the stane-chucking,   
Or will ye play at the ba',
Or will ye gae up to yon hill head,
And there we'll warsell a fa'."

When he sat in his father's chair
He grew baith pale and wan.
"O what blude's that upon your brow?
O dear son tell to me."
"It is the blude o' my gude gray steed,
He wadna ride wi' me."

"O thy steed's blude was ne'er sae red,
Nor e'er sae dear to me:
O what blude's this upon your cheek?
O dear son tell to me."
"It is the blude of my greyhound,
He wadna hunt for me."

"O thy hound's blude was ne'er sae red,
Nor e'er sae dear to me:
O what blude's this upon your cheek,
O dear son tell to me."
"It is the blude of my gay goss hawk,
He wadna flee for me."

"O thy hawk's blude was ne'er sae red,
Nor e'er sae dear to me;
O what blude's this upon your dirk?
Dear Willie tell to me."
"It is the blude of my ae brother,
O dule and wae is me."

"O what will ye say to your father?
Dear Willie tell to me."
"I'll saddle my steed, and awa I'll ride
To dwell in some far countrie."

"O when will ye come hame again?
Dear Wiilie tell to me."
"When sun and mune leap on yon hill,
And that will never be."

She turn'd hersel' right round about,   
And her heart burst into three:
"My ae best son is deid and gane,   
And my tother ane I'll ne'er see."


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 17 Feb 12 - 11:11 AM

Richie
Your guess is as good as anyone else's. All of them were mixing and matching and this is an example of the most basic process whereby two ballads are simply grafted together with no new material except perhaps the couplet that introduces stanza 12. At least this one is patently obvious


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 17 Feb 12 - 01:05 PM

Hi,

Although there's a mistake in Child (Kittredge) version I listed under Twa brothers but it's a version of Edward, usually changes in the text are carefully notated.

If it's a collation the source of the other text should be noted but it's not, or, I haven't found the reference.

I've started putting the US versions of Twa Bothers on my site, there are quite a few: http://bluegrassmessengers.com/us--canada-versions-49-the-twa-brothers.aspx

I don't have Hudson (Miss.) or Barry (Maine) or Cox A (WV). I anyone has these, please post one,

TY

Richie


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 17 Feb 12 - 04:01 PM

Ritchie - if the Cox versions you want are the ones from Folk-Songs of the South, I can put the two up later.

Mick


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 18 Feb 12 - 09:17 AM

Hudson p 73 & p74

A "The Cruel Brother." Text recovered by Miss Lois Womble, Water Valley, from the singing of Miss Mamie Poindexter, Pine Valley.

Two little boys were going to school;
They were playmates for to be.
Willie said to johnnie,
"Can you throw a rock or toss a ball?"

"Oh, no, dear brother, I am too small
Tp throw a rock or toss a ball."

Willie took out his little dirt knife,    (dirk?)
Which was so keen and sharp.
He pierced it through little Johnnie's side;
He pierced it through his heart.

Willie took off his big white shirt
And tore it from gore to gore;
He tied it around little Johnnie's side,
Still bleeding more and more.

"Come pick me up, dear brother, I say,
And lay me out so straight;
Come pick me up, dear brother, I say,
And bury me by the gate.

"Go meet my mother on her way,
Who looks so unconcerned;
Tell her I'm gone to the old churchyard
My prayer books for to learn."

B coming up. I'd send you scans of all these but I'm between scanners at the moment.


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 18 Feb 12 - 09:24 AM

B From a copy made by Mr. George F. Swetnam, University, from the singing of his mother, Mrs. Flora Stafford, Swetman, who learned the ballad from her mother in Ky.

He drew his sword all from his side,
.....................................
He pierced it through his own brother's heart,
And out the blood did pour.

"Brother, dear, take off my shirt,
Tear it from gore to gore;
And then tie up my bleeding wounds,
That they may bleed no more.

"Brother dear, when you go home,
My mother will ask for me.
Tell her I'm playing with my schoolmates
And will be at home early.

"Brother dear, when you go home,
My father will ask for me.
Tell him I'm gone to the north countrie
To learn my grammarie.

"Brother dear, when you go home
My sister will ask for me.
............................
..............................

"Brother dear, when you go home,
My truelove will ask for me.
Tell her I'm dead and in my cold grave laid
No more to see of me."

An incredibly powerful ballad in such a short text!


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