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Child Ballads: US Versions

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Richie 30 Oct 11 - 08:22 PM
Richie 30 Oct 11 - 09:17 PM
Reinhard 30 Oct 11 - 10:51 PM
Brian Peters 31 Oct 11 - 09:06 AM
Richie 31 Oct 11 - 05:52 PM
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Richie 01 Nov 11 - 01:13 AM
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Joe_F 01 Nov 11 - 06:19 PM
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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 30 Oct 11 - 08:22 PM

Hi,

I've been putting the Child ballads in the my English and other ballads section. Here's Child F:

http://bluegrassmessengers.com/false-knight-outwitted--roxburghe-ballads-c1710.aspx

I've been adding the complete text from the source Child used. Is this helpful?


I need some help with Child 4. What is the text of "The Western Tragedy"? What is the US version alluded to by Kittredge that dates back to circa 1800?

Richie


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 30 Oct 11 - 09:17 PM

Hi,

Here's my brief research on Child 4 English version: http://bluegrassmessengers.com/english-and-other-versions-4-lady-isabel-.aspx

I need a copy of "The historical ballad of May Culzean: founded on fact" I know it was published in 1817. Anyone?

Richie


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Reinhard
Date: 30 Oct 11 - 10:51 PM

Draufield seems to be a red herring. In the index of Notes and Queries (p. 641) Draufield only refers to 'on eggs sold after sunset' while D. is an entry of its own referring to 'song, "Sing Ivy"' and 'nursery tale'.


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Brian Peters
Date: 31 Oct 11 - 09:06 AM

"Apparently 'The Deil's Courting,' Motherwell's Manuscript,' p. 103, (what's the date?) is found also in Crawford Collection of about 1827 (Lyle). Does anyone have that version. Is it the same as Motherwell's?"

No, it's not. The 'Deil's Courtship' from Crawfurd (also included in Motherwell's MS, I believe) is a different ballad, related to the English song 'The Keys of Canterbury' and also the well-known 'Paper of Pins'. The Devil bribes a woman to go along with him, his true nature being revealed by a tell-tale cloven foot.

Chambers 'Popular Rhymes of Scotland' has another version of the same ballad, in which the Devil appears only in the spoken introduction and postscript. Child didn't include the ballad, though, so presumably it's outside the scope of your study. I do have texts if you need them.


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 31 Oct 11 - 05:52 PM

Hi,

Please provide texts Brian. I've got two more recent versions and don't know the source need to compare and include. Having the info may help someone studying the ballad.

I started on the US version of Child 4 today-- Haha. I've got about 60 most with music. I'm trying to do the older versions before 1960 first. Of course there are more.....

http://bluegrassmessengers.com.temp.realssl.com/us-and-canadian-versions.aspx

If anyone has any more versions let me know- I haven't looked in the DT yet- but I will, some of them are already on my short list.

Richie


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 31 Oct 11 - 07:17 PM

I'm putting Niles and Randolph on now:

Niles title: Lady Ishbel and her Parrot- Melton (NC) 1934 is very peculiar- since there is no Lady Isabel (Ishbel) in the lyrics the title must have been supplied by Niles. No other US collector has found that title and it appears only in Child A. Why Niles changed the title from Isabel to Ishbel is unknown- haha.

Here's the first verse- standard fare:

Lady Ishbel and her Parrot- Hattie Melton (NC) 1934; Collected John Jacob Niles.

He followed her up and he followed her down,
He followed her as she lay.
And she not having the strength to withstand,
Or the breath to say him nay.


Richie


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 01 Nov 11 - 01:13 AM

Hi,

I've proofed and added music to the first 32 and added a few- only 67 US versions so far- haha. Check them out here:http://bluegrassmessengers.com.temp.realssl.com/us-and-canadian-versions.aspx

Signing off,

Richie


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 01 Nov 11 - 11:41 AM

Hi,

I've added in most of the versions I have in my database and my online collection.

I found one early Virginia version titled "Wilson" which was published in 1889, no music for it tho:

http://bluegrassmessengers.com.temp.realssl.com/wilson--babcock-virginia-1889.aspx

I guess there around 80 US versions now, most with music. Don't have many MP3's to add only about 4 or 5.

Richie


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Joe_F
Date: 01 Nov 11 - 06:19 PM

Richie: I do not know the source of the American version of "The Cherry-Tree Carol". I first learned it from _The New Song Fest_.


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 02 Nov 11 - 12:39 AM

Thanks Joe,

I'll get to 54 someday- haha.

I'm wrapping up US versions of Child 4: http://bluegrassmessengers.com.temp.realssl.com/us-and-canadian-versions.aspx

There's about 80, I have to proof the last 40 and add music. I might put some MP3's on.

I'll do Child 5 & 6 and 7. Earl Brand looks like the next US stop,

Richie


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 03 Nov 11 - 11:24 AM

Hi,

I've started on Earl Brand and am focusing on US versions here: http://bluegrassmessengers.com/us-and-canadian-versions-child-7-earl-brand.aspx

Does anyone know where the Earl Brand version in the DT is from?

It's attributed to Lizzie Gibson (Virginia) 1918 but it's not the lyrics from EFFSA. It's some compilation- modern version?

Richie


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 03 Nov 11 - 09:42 PM

Here's the correct lyrics from Lizzie Gibson's version. The one in the DT has been sanitized (?) I assume because of such lines:

Till she saw her own dear father's head,
Come tumbling by her foot.

EARL BRAND- Version E- Mrs. Lizzie Gibson, Crozet Va., April 26, 1918

1. Wake you up, wake you up, you seven sleepers
And do take warning of me;
O do take care of your oldest daughter dear
For the youngest are going with me.

2. He mounted her up on his bonny, bonny brown
Himself on the dark apple grey,
He drew his buckles down by his side
And away he went singing away.

3. Get you up, get you up, my seven sons bold
Get on your arms so bright;
For it never shall be said that a daughter of mine
Shall lie with a lord all night.

4. He rode, he rode that livelong day
Along with his lady so dear,
Until he saw her seventh brother come
And her father were walking so near.

5. Get you down, get you down, Lady Margaret, he cried,
And hold my horse for awhile,
Until I can fight your seventh brother bold,
And your father is walking so nigh.

6. She held, she held, she *bitter, bitter held
And never shedded one tear,
Until she saw her seventh brother fall
And her father she loved so dear.

7. "O light you off, fair Ellen," said he,
"And hold my steed by the rein,
Till I play awhile with your father,
And seven brothers all.

8. Fair Ellen she stood there,
And never changed a word.
Till she saw her own dear seven brothers all,
A-wallowing in their own blood.

9. Fair Ellen she stood there,
And never changed a note,
Till she saw her own dear father's head,
Come tumbling by her foot.

10. "O hold your hand, sweet William," said she,
Love runs free in every vein,
But I have a father no more.
If you aren't satisfied with this
I wish you were in your mother's chamberee,
And I's in some house or room.

11. He rode up to his mother's gate
And jangled at the ring;
"O mother, dear mother, asleep or awake,
Arise and let me in."

12. "O sister, O sister. make my bed,
For my wound is very sore.
O mother, O mother, bind up my head,
For me you'll bind no more.

13. It was only about three hours before day,
And teh chicken's crowing for day,
When every wound that William received,
The blood began to pour.

14. Sweet William he died like it was today,
Fair Ellender tomorrow;
Sweet William died from the wounds hereceived,
Fair Ellender died of sorrow.

*Better?


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 04 Nov 11 - 09:11 AM

Hi,

Here are the correct lyrics from Lizzie Gibson's 1918 version. The one in the DT has been sanitized (?) I assume because of such lines:

Till she saw her own dear father's head,
Come tumbling by her foot.

EARL BRAND- Version E- Mrs. Lizzie Gibson, Crozet Va., April 26, 1918

1. Wake you up, wake you up, you seven sleepers
And do take warning of me;
O do take care of your oldest daughter dear
For the youngest are going with me.

2. He mounted her up on his bonny, bonny brown
Himself on the dark apple grey,
He drew his buckles down by his side
And away he went singing away.

3. Get you up, get you up, my seven sons bold
Get on your arms so bright;
For it never shall be said that a daughter of mine
Shall lie with a lord all night.

4. He rode, he rode that livelong day
Along with his lady so dear,
Until he saw her seventh brother come
And her father were walking so near.

5. Get you down, get you down, Lady Margaret, he cried,
And hold my horse for awhile,
Until I can fight your seventh brother bold,
And your father is walking so nigh.

6. She held, she held, she *bitter, bitter held
And never shedded one tear,
Until she saw her seventh brother fall
And her father she loved so dear.

7. "O light you off, fair Ellen," said he,
"And hold my steed by the rein,
Till I play awhile with your father,
And seven brothers all.

8. Fair Ellen she stood there,
And never changed a word.
Till she saw her own dear seven brothers all,
A-wallowing in their own blood.

9. Fair Ellen she stood there,
And never changed a note,
Till she saw her own dear father's head,
Come tumbling by her foot.

10. "O hold your hand, sweet William," said she,
Love runs free in every vein,
But I have a father no more.
If you aren't satisfied with this
I wish you were in your mother's chamberee,
And I's in some house or room.

11. He rode up to his mother's gate
And jangled at the ring;
"O mother, dear mother, asleep or awake,
Arise and let me in."

12. "O sister, O sister. make my bed,
For my wound is very sore.
O mother, O mother, bind up my head,
For me you'll bind no more.

13. It was only about three hours before day,
And teh chicken's crowing for day,
When every wound that William received,
The blood began to pour.

14. Sweet William he died like it was today,
Fair Ellender tomorrow;
Sweet William died from the wounds hereceived,
Fair Ellender died of sorrow.

*Better?


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 04 Nov 11 - 12:23 PM

Hi,

Finished up the Brown Collection entries: http://bluegrassmessengers.com/earl-brand--brown-collection--11-versions-1913.aspx

If anyone has any additional US source versions. I don't have the one from Florida, circa 1950 nor the one from Miss. from Hudson.

Richie


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 04 Nov 11 - 03:17 PM

Hi,

Just put the version with music that my grandfather collected in 1933: http://bluegrassmessengers.com/sweet-willie--mrs-bragg-north-carolina-1933.aspx

Richie


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 04 Nov 11 - 10:03 PM

Hi,

I made a mistake on Version E- Mrs. Lizzie Gibson, Crozet Va., April 26, 1918. I've got some photocopies in my Child notebook of long ago and somehow got the end of Version D taped to Version E.

I'm actually missing page 22. If some elf can get rid of that post I'd appreciate it- don't want to mislead anyone.

TY

Richie


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 05 Nov 11 - 01:54 AM

Hi,

I've got most of the early US and Canadian Earl Brand versions put on my site: http://bluegrassmessengers.com/us-and-canadian-versions-child-7-earl-brand.aspx

I think there are around 45, I have one more source to check and then I'll need to add some lyrics and music- many are done. I'm leaving off some of the Sharp versions F-K and will put them in the music section since they don't have text included.

Richie


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 05 Nov 11 - 10:01 PM

Hi,

I'm adding the English versions of Earl Brand. Does anyone know the date of "Scotch Ballads, Materials for Border Minstrelsy" or have information about this collection?

I have four Scottish versions of Child A. Not sure of Child's dates, I assume he means the 1857 version is the most complete. It it from the 1818 version?

"Obtained from recitation "many years ago" wrote Mr. White in 1873, by James Telfer, of Laughtree Liddesdale, in some part of the neighboring country: the copy has the date 1818."

Why the 1857 date?

Richie


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 07 Nov 11 - 01:03 PM

Hi,

I'm Working on child 7A. The Lady and the Dragoon, known as the Bold Soldier . There are several version posted here- Red River Shore- Valiant Soldier.

Here's what I have so far: http://bluegrassmessengers.com/7a-lady-and-the-dragoon-bronson.aspx

Anyone have Cas Wallin's "Little Soldier" lyrics?

Richie


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 07 Nov 11 - 02:55 PM

Here's a list of titles compiled so far of Child 7A:

The Master-piece of Love Songs
The Bold Keeper (Early Broadside Title)
The Seamans Renown in winning his fair lady
Seamans Renown
The Keeper and the Lady
New River Shore (Brown Collection)
Red River Shore (Lomax)
Dear Jewell (Randolph- variant of Red River Shore)
Lady and the Dragoon
Bold Soldier
Jolly Soldier
Rise Ye Up
Valiant Soldier
Soldier's Wooing
A Little Soldier (Cas Wallin)
A Soldier (Mary O. Eddy)
I'll Tell You of a Soldier
Young Soldier (Randolph)
The Poor Soldier
The Yankee Soldier (Brown Collection)
The Rich Lady from London (Brown Collection)

I have the early broadside versions dating back to 1673 (Cazden)

http://bluegrassmessengers.com/the-master-piece-of-love-songs-the-bold-keeper.aspx

Interestign are the variants titled: New River Shore (Brown Collection); Red River Shore (Lomax); Dear Jewell (Randolph- variant of Red River Shore)

Art Thieme posted and recorded the Lomax version.

Richie


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 14 Nov 11 - 01:31 PM

Hi,

I'm up to Child 10. Here are the US versions so far:
http://bluegrassmessengers.com.temp.realssl.com/us-and-canadian-versions-child-10-twa-sisters.aspx

Can anyone help identify some of the sources in the DT for Child 10?

For example, THE TWO SISTERS (7) is posted by R.G. no info is given. Where did it come from and who is R.G.?

Richie


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 16 Nov 11 - 11:07 AM

I've got most of the US versions of Child 10 Two Sisters up:

http://bluegrassmessengers.com/us-and-canadian-versions-child-10-twa-sisters.aspx

There are over 70 so far. I don't have them all finished (haven't typed all the lyrics)

I can't figure out sources from many of the versions in the DT. There are also over 10 music examples with no info at all. Anyone know?

Now I'm doing the English versions. Child A: After looking at the 1817 reprint of Facetiae, Musarum Delicić: or, The Muses Recreation) the second refrain ends with an O:

With a hy downe, downe, a downe-o-

Child doesn't- mistake? Anyone know?

The first edition of Child A was printed in 1655- why is the date listed as 1656?

Richie


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Brian Peters
Date: 16 Nov 11 - 12:27 PM

The late Malcolm Douglas gave some details of the versions in the DT as of 2001 here.

Can't help with those early English versions.

Your work is as good as ever, but I'm puzzled why no-one else is contributing to this thread. Could it be the title? Some of our UK experts may think there's nothing here for them.


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 16 Nov 11 - 02:36 PM

Richie

I've looked at some of Child's sources for 10A. Facetiae and the Wit Restor'd versions have -O, Jamieson's Popular Ballads has -A, so he may have taken the copy from there. (I assume you're asking why Child has -A instead of -O, though you don't make that clear above).

He does say in a footnote that "Jamieson, in his Popular Ballads, II, 315, prints the ballad with five inconsiderable variations from the broadside as from Musarum Deliciae, 2nd ed 1658...Still it is hardly credible that Jamieson has blundered, and we may suppose that copies, ostensibly of the same edition, varied as to contents, a thing common enough with old books" (my bold).

Perhaps he accepted this as one of Jamieson's (possibly legitimate) variations. (I haven't made a full comparison for the differences).


Mick


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 16 Nov 11 - 02:59 PM

The DT(7) version - one of the ones Malcolm added no information for - looks like it was derived from one collected by Sharp and published in EFSSA, 1932, from Louisa Chisholm, Woodridge, Va, Sep 1916. It's No.27 in Bronson.

RG says in his note: "This is how I remember it; it may well be a pastiche of several versions", so that may account for the differences later in the tune. I assume RG either started from this version or from hearing someone who had started from this one.

Dick or Susan should be able to tell you who RG was.

Mick


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: GUEST,SteveG
Date: 16 Nov 11 - 03:37 PM

Brian/Richie
You seem to be doing fine without any help! You have access to Roud and many of the American collections give lists of other sources in their headnotes. Your thread moves along at such a pace it's hard to keep up, but I'll drop in from time to time.

Personally I find including Bold Soldier/Dragoon in with Earl Brand or Erlinton unnecessary. All they have in common is a single motif and a rough plot. If we counted all songs with such similarities as the same ballad just about every ballad would be related. I know I'm disagreeing with the great Bronson here, but that's just my opinion.

An excellent project, though I haven't had time to visit the website yet. The problem is we're all heavily weighed down with similar projects.

One of the projects I started was a critique of each Child ballad regarding authenticity which can be found on the Folkopedia website hidden behind the Child Ballad texts. But I haven't contributed anything for a while. My pet subject includes the forgers and fabricators like Scott, Buchan, Baring Gould etc. But you have your fair share of these in the States.

Regarding the Motherwell Mss, they were copied out by Macmath for Child and are in the Hornel Library at Kirkudbright. Ronnie Clark I think it is is in there at the moment (Lucky sod!) and he might be contacted via the Ballad List. Harvard of course has copies in Child's Library there.

Brian,
Have you read Mary Ellen Brown yet? Awesome!!!!


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: GUEST,SteveG
Date: 16 Nov 11 - 03:57 PM

I should add that many of the Child ballad scholars in Britain are academics and don't subscribe to Mudcat, although some of them occasionally contribute to Indiana Ballad List and Tradsong on this side of the pond.

I think they're still sulking that 2 Americans, Child and Bronson, cornered the market in popular ballads. (Only joking!)


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Brian Peters
Date: 16 Nov 11 - 03:58 PM

The cavalry has arrived! Thanks for the tip about Folkopedia, Steve, I hadn't found your work there before.

Have you read Mary Ellen Brown yet? Awesome!!!!

No but she's on my wish list!


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 16 Nov 11 - 04:15 PM

I plead guilty to being RG (when I'm more formal).Version 7 in the DT is very close to Bronson version #27---Peggy Seeger recorded it in Long Harvest, attributing the tune to Louisa Chisholm, Woodsbridge VA. I'd guess I learned it (oral transmission) from Margot Mayo, ca 1948.

It's also version C (Chisholm in Sharp/Karpeles "English Folk Songs in the Southern Appalachians"-1932 edition) Which collection, I should mention, will be re-issued by CAMSCO in the near future.


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: GUEST,SteveG
Date: 16 Nov 11 - 05:02 PM

Re the dates of 10A. Looking at the footnotes on p119 I would guess Child only had access to the second edition and so gave the date for that. He was meticulous to the point of obsession with such things.

My own version of 10 is pretty fluid. I sing it on the principle of Albert Lord's assertion that in less literate societies ballads were remade every time they were performed from knowledge of the plot and a bank of stock phrases etc. This is made a lot easier when there are lots of refrain lines and repetitions as in my version. I got the tune and refrains from a locally recorded version (JFSS) and took it from there.

Here's a typical first verse

There was an old man in the north country,
Hi down derry down down
there was an old man in the north country,
Valid we ought to be,
There was an old man in the north country,
And he had daughters one, two and three,
And I'll be true to my love if my love will be true to me.


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 16 Nov 11 - 05:46 PM

Thanks for coming forward Dick! (It might be nice to compile a list of those contributor abbreviations sometime).

I should have mentioned in my post above that I was referring to the tune. The lyrics seem to be a composite.

Mick


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Lighter
Date: 16 Nov 11 - 07:05 PM

Note too that part of the tune of Dick's version is identical to the middle bars of "Mademoiselle from Armentieres."

Undoubtedly a coincidence, but the stanzaic forms are also very similar!


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 17 Nov 11 - 12:55 AM

Here's the basic info page for Child 10: http://bluegrassmessengers.com/recordings--info-10-the-twa-sisters.aspx

Here are the articles included:

ATTACHED PAGES: (see left hand column)
1) "The Twa Sisters" Going Which Way?- Parker 1951
2) The Twa Sisters: A Santal Folktale Variant
3) English, Scottish & American Versions of the 'Twa Sisters'
4) Roud Number 8: Twa Sisters
5) Two Gaelic Variants of "The Two Sisters" - Brewster
6) A Note on the "Herb" and Other Refrains of Certain British Ballads- Gilchrist 1930
7) Bronson's 1945 article, Mrs. Brown and the Ballad (Child B is from Mrs. Brown)

This is what I wrote for Child Version B:

http://bluegrassmessengers.com/the-cruel-sister--mrs-brown-1783-child-b.aspx

It's amazing how much there is in just one of the 26 versions by Child. I assume people know that Child had A-Z but I don't see it listed this way.

Thanks for your help. I can see I need to get Brewster's writings. Anyone know more?

Yes Mick I was talking about the Facetiae and the Wit Restor'd versions that have -O as the second refrain. I think that is better than -A. Also the date on the first edition is one year earlier than typically quoted. Child knew this, of course, but why the difference?

I think the DT should if possible give sources for the lyrics. I can't include some versions for the DT becasue of this.

TY for your help,

Richie


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 17 Nov 11 - 02:27 PM

THe DT lists sources when we know them. It's a problem with having maany contributors.


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: GUEST,SteveG
Date: 17 Nov 11 - 03:29 PM

Richie,
I'm interested to know why you think the O ending is better than the A ending. There are other examples of the A ending from the period. I seem to remember 'John Dory' has the A ending and a quick glance on the opposite page shows an early version of The George Aloe, both from the early 17th century if not earlier.. The A ending may simply have been fashionable in the earlier period, 16th century. I see from Child's variant notes (p137) that the 10Ac Wit and Drollery version repeats the A endings.


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 21 Nov 11 - 12:34 AM

Hi Steve,

No preference, just noting the difference when I found it- which Child also did- after careful reading.

I also looked and added to my site Aa by Edward F. Rimbault in Notes and Queries. This version dated 1656 has the A ending. Rimbault says:

The original ballad of "The Miller's Melody."

I've looked at Child J which is titled "The Miller's Melody" but I have no idea why- yet- since the fragment is taken from Notes and Queries. It's not titled that since it's a response to a query titled: "Three Ladies Playing At Ball" from Philadelphia- proving at least the a fragment of the ballad existed (from an Irish source) in the US.

I'm still perplexed about the 1st edition dated 1655 since the 1656 date comes from the 2nd edition. There's a footnote about it by Child.


Any comments are welcome as sometimes I feel like I'm in the dark here.

TY

Richie


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 21 Nov 11 - 12:38 AM

The importance of "Three Ladies Playing At Ball" fragment from Philadelphia is the date: 1852, making this one of the earliest documented US versions even though it was learned from an Irish grandmother.


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Valmai Goodyear
Date: 21 Nov 11 - 02:26 AM

As this thread is being followed by ballad enthusiasts, may I draw attention to another of our popular all-day ballad forums on Saturday 3rd. December at the Lewes Saturday Folk Club? Full details are on this thread.. It's a good opportunity to sing ballads and discuss them with other enthusiasts.

The forum is led by Paul and Liz Davenport, who also perform at the club in the evening.

Valmai (Lewes)


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 21 Nov 11 - 01:13 PM

Child L has been interesting- Here are the three versions from Hughes and also the Barkshire Tragedy (1859):
http://bluegrassmessengers.com/the-drowned-lady--hughes-pub-1859-child-lb.aspx

It took some time but I found the original edition of Notes and Queries for Child L a. http://bluegrassmessengers.com/the-millers-melody--1853-child-l-a.aspx

Many of the Child ballads do not include the original sources and texts from those sources which is what I'm try to do,

Richie


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 01:37 AM

Hi,

I've looked at Child J again which is titled "The Miller's Melody" It seems that this title is not right, it should be perhaps: "There Were Two Ladies Playing Ball"

Here's a link to the actual Notes and Queries page:http://bluegrassmessengers.com/Data/Sites/1/avatars/three%20ladies%20playing%20at%20ball-%201870.jpg


It's a response to a query titled: "Three Ladies Playing At Ball" from Philadelphia. There are two other articles titled "Miller's Melody" in Notes and Queries.

If anyone can clear this up I'd appreciate it,

Richie


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 10:55 PM

Hi,

Alomst finished putting Child ballad 10 Twa Sisters on my site with notes ann original sources. There are close to versions A-Z and multiples of some. Additionally there are two in the Additions and Corrections.

Here's "Norham, Down By Norham" from Lugton, 1830? Child 10- Version W:
http://bluegrassmessengers.com/1norham-down-by-norham--lugton-1830-child-w.aspx

Any additional info about Thomas Lugton would be appreciated. The first refrain is unique.

Richie


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 25 Nov 11 - 01:59 PM

Hi,

I'm finishing up Child 11 Cruel Brother, US versions here:http://bluegrassmessengers.com/1us--canadian-versions-child-11-the-cruel-brother.aspx

I don't understand Child D and think something's fishy here. Since it's a query from Philadelphia remembered from an Irish grandmother shouldn't it be technically a US version?

Anyone have the Flanders text from Ancient Ballads?

Richie


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 30 Nov 11 - 02:09 PM

Hi,

I've been sich and fain would lie down- but I'm too busy- haha. So I've started child 12 Lord Randall and put the first wave otf Us texts on here:http://bluegrassmessengers.com/us--canadian-versions-child-12-lord-randal.aspx

My main question is what are the Child I (US) texts? He lists seven versions and only gives one. What? Where are they?

Richie


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 30 Nov 11 - 05:19 PM

Richie - re 12I, the differences between the other versions and the (a) text are listed at the end of the chapter for the ballad (p166 in my Dover edition)

Mick


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 30 Nov 11 - 09:58 PM

TY,

I knew they were somewhere, I appreciate your reply. My cold's worse-haha- that's what happens when you have to play flamenco guitar for 3 hours with one break- haha! My head's inside a tunnel...

One good thing happened today- my new article on Hiram, Art and Charlie Stamper came out today in Fiddler magazine.

There a ton of version of Lord Randal- Whew- Here's the English versions: http://bluegrassmessengers.com/english-and-other-versions--12-lord-randal.aspx

Barely started on them- haha!

Richie


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 01 Dec 11 - 11:11 AM

I'll add these versions to the DT:

Lyr add: TIRANTI, MY SON- Child Ib.
b. By a daughter of Elizabeth Foster, as learned about 1820.

1. 'O where have you been, Tiranti, my son?
O where have you been, my sweet little one?'
'I have been to my grandmother's; mother, make my bed soon,
For I'm sick to my heart, and I'm faint to lie down.'

2. 'What did you have for your dinner, Tiranti, my son?
What did you have for your dinner, my sweet little one?'
'I had eels fried in butter; mother, make my bed soon,
For I'm sick to my heart, and I'm faint to lie down.'

3. 'Who cooked you the eels, Tiranti, my son?
'Who cooked you the eels, my sweet little one?'
'T was my grandmother; mother, make my bed soon,
For I'm sick to my heart, and I'm faint to lie down.'

4. 'What color were the eels, Tiranti, my son?
What color were the eels, my sweet little one?'
'They were streaked and striped; mother, make my bed soon,
For I'm sick to my heart, and I'm faint to lie down.'

5. Where did she get the eels, Tiranti, my son?
Where did she get the eels, my sweet little one?'
By the side of the haystack, mother, make my bed soon,
For I'm sick to my heart, and I'm faint to lie down.'

6. 'What'll you give to your grandmother, Tiranti, my son?
What'll you give to your grandmother, my sweet little one?'
'A halter to hang her; mother, make my bed soon,
For I'm sick to my heart, and I'm faint to lie down.'

7. 'Where'll you have your bed made, Tiranti, my son?
Where'll you have your bed made, my sweet little one?'
'In the corner of the churchyard; mother, make my bed soon,
For I'm sick to my heart, and I'm faint to lie down.'

8. 'What'll you give to your father, Tiranti, my son?
What'll you give to your father, my sweet little one?'
'All my gold and my silver; mother, make my bed soon,
For I'm sick to my heart, and die to lie down.'

Footnotes Child Ib. :
b. 2[1]. for your dinner.

After 2 follows:
Who cooked you the eels, Tiranti, my son? etc.
't was my grandmother;
mother, make my bed soon, etc.

b 5 = a 3: 1. Where did she get the eels? etc.
3. By the side of the haystack, etc.
b 6 = a 7: 7 = a 8: 8 = a 5.
8[4]. and die to lie down,
a 6 is wanting in b.


Richie


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 01 Dec 11 - 11:35 AM

Lyr. add: TIRANTI, MY SON- Child Ic.
c. By Miss Ellen Marston, of New Bedford, as learned from her mother, born 1778.

1. 'O where have you been, Tiranti, my son?
O where have you been, my sweet little one?'
'I have been to my grandmother's; mother, make my bed soon,
For I'm sick at my heart , and I'm faint to lie down.'

2. 'O what did she give you, Tiranti, my son?
O what did she give you, my sweet little one?'
'Striped eels fried in butter; mother, make my bed soon,
For I'm sick at my heart, and I'm faint to lie down.'

3. 'O how did they look, Tiranti, my son?
O how did they look, my sweet little one?'
Ringed, streaked, and speckled, mother, make my bed soon,
For I'm sick at my heart, and I'm faint to lie down.'

4. O where did they come from, Tiranti, my son?
O where did they come from, my sweet little one?'
'From the corner of the haystack; mother, make my bed soon,
For I'm sick at my heart, and I'm faint to lie down.'

5. 'What what will you give your father, [Tiranti] my son?
O what what will give him, my sweet little one?'
'A coach and six horses; mother, make my bed soon,
For I'm sick at my heart, and I'm faint to lie down.'

6. 'O what will you give your mother, [Tiranti] my son?
O what will you give your mother, my sweet little one?'
'All my gold and my silver; mother, make my bed soon,
For I'm sick at my heart, and I'm faint to lie down.'

7 'O what will you give your granny, Tiranti, my son?
O what will you give your granny, my sweet little one?'
'A halter to hang her; mother, make my bed soon,
For I'm sick at my heart, and I'm faint to lie down.'

8 'Where'll you have your bed made, Tiranti, my son?
Where'll you have your bed made, my sweet little one?'
'In the corner of the churchyard; mother, make my bed soon,
For I'm sick at my heart, and I'm faint to lie down.'

9. So this is the end of, Tiranti, my son,
So this is the end of, my sweet little one:
His grandmother poisoned him with an old dead snake,
And he left her a halter to hang by the neck.


Footnotes Child Ic. :

c. 1[4], at my heart (and always).

2[1]. O what did she give you? etc.
   3. Striped eels fried, etc.

3 = a 4. 1 O how did they look? etc.
   [3]. Ringed, streaked, and speckled, etc.

4 = a 3. [1]. O where did they come from?

5[1]. what will you give your father, my son?
[2]. O what will you give him?
[3]. A coach and six horses.

6[1]. O what will you give your mother, my son? as in 5.
[3]. All my gold and my silver.

7[1]. O what will you give your granny? as in 5.

8[1]. where'll, etc.

c adds, as 9:
So this is the end of Tiranti my son,
So this is the end of my sweet little one:
His grandmother poisoned him with an old dead snake,
And he left her a halter to hang by the neck.


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 01 Dec 11 - 12:09 PM

Lyr add: TIRANTE, MY SON- Child Id.
d. By Mrs. Cushing, of Cambridge, Mass., as learned in 1838 from a schoolmate, who is thought to have derived it from an old nurse.

1. 'O where have you been, Tirante, my son?
O where have you been, my sweet little one?'
'I've been to my uncle's; mother, make my bed soon,
For I'm sick to my heart, and fain wad lie doun.'

2. 'What did you have for your supper, Tirante, my son?
What did you have for your supper, my sweet little one?'
'I had eels and fresh butter; mother, make my bed soon,
For I'm sick to my heart, and fain wad lie doun.'

3. 'What color were the eels, Tirante, my son?
What color were the eels, my sweet little one?'
'They were black striped with yellow; mother, make my bed soon,
For I'm sick to my heart, and fain wad lie doun.'

4. 'What'll ye will to your mither, Tirante, my son?
What'll ye will to your mither, my sweet little one?'
'My gold and my silver; mother, make my bed soon,
For I'm sick to my heart, and fain wad lie doun.'

5. 'What'll ye will to your father, Tirante, my son?
What'll you give to your father, my sweet little one?'
'My coach and my horses, mother, make my bed soon,
For I'm sick to my heart, and fain wad lie doun.'

6. 'What'll you will to your uncle, Tirante, my son?
What'll you will to your uncle, my sweet little one?'
'*A halter to hang him; mother, make my bed soon,
For I'm sick to my heart, and fain wad lie doun.'

* notes are unclear- this is the only logical solution

Footnotes- Child Id.

1[1], etc. Tyrante.
3. I've been to my uncle's, etc.
4. and fain wad lie doun.
2[3]. eels and fresh butter.
3 = a 4. 3. black striped with yellow.
4 = a 7. 1. What'll ye will to your mither?
3. My gold and my silver.
5 = a 6. 1. What'll ye will to your father?
3. My coach and my horses.
6 = a 8. 1 What'll you will to your uncle?
3, 5 of a are wanting.


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 01 Dec 11 - 12:30 PM

TIRANTI, MY SON- Child Ie.
e. By Mrs. Augustus Lowell, of Boston.

1. 'O where have you been, Tiranti, my son?
O where have you been, my sweet little one?'
'I have been to my grandmother's; mother, make my bed soon,
For I'm sick at heart, and faint [fain] to lie down.'

2. 'What did you have for your supper, Tiranti, my son?
What did you have for your supper, my sweet little one?'
'I had eels fried in butter; mother, make my bed soon,
For I'm sick at heart, and faint [fain] to lie down.'

3. 'What will you leave your mother, Tiranti, my son?
What will you leave your mother, my sweet little one?'
'A coach and six horses; mother, make my bed soon,
For I'm sick at heart, and faint [fain] to lie down.'

4. What will you leave your sister, Tiranti, my son?
What will you leave your sister, my sweet little one?'
A box of fine clothing; mother, make my bed soon,
For I'm sick at heart, and faint [fain] to lie down.'

5. 'What'll you give to your grandmother, Tiranti, my son?
What'll you give to your grandmother, my sweet little one?'
A rope to hang her with; mother, make my bed soon,
For I'm sick at heart, and faint [fain] to lie down.'

6.* 'Where shall I make it, Tiranti, my son?
'Where shall I make it, my sweet little one?'
'In the corner of the churchyard; mother, make my bed soon,
For I'm sick at heart, and faint [fain] to lie down.'

* The footnotes are incomplete, I assume 6. is as I've assembled it. Certainly 3 and 4 aren't the only verses missing

Footnotes Child Ie. :

I. e.

1[4]. For I 'm sick at heart, and faint [fain] to lie down.

3 = a 7. 1. What will you leave your mother?
   3. A box full of jewels.

4[1]. What will you leave your sister?
3. A box of fine clothing.

5 = a 8. 3. A rope to hang her with.
6 = a 5. 1. Where shall I make it?
3, 4 of a are wanting.


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 01 Dec 11 - 12:38 PM

Lyr. add: TIRANTI, MY SON- Child I f.
f. By Mrs. Augustus Lowell, of Boston. [No date given, pre- 1884]

1. 'O where have you been, Tiranti, my son?
O where have you been, my sweet little one?'
'I have been to my grandmother's; mother, make my bed soon,
For I'm sick at heart, and fain to lie down.'

2. 'What did you have for your supper, Tiranti, my son?
What did you have for your supper, my sweet little one?'
'I had eels fried in butter; mother, make my bed soon,
For I'm sick at heart, and fain to lie down.'

3. What will you leave your sister, Tiranti, my son?
What will you leave your sister, my sweet little one?'
A box of fine clothing; mother, make my bed soon,
For I'm sick at heart, and fain to lie down.'

4. 'What will you leave your mother, Tiranti, my son?
What will you leave your mother, my sweet little one?'
'A coach and six horses; mother, make my bed soon,
For I'm sick at heart, and fain to lie down.'

5. 'What'll you give to your grandmother, Tiranti, my son?
What'll you give to your grandmother, my sweet little one?'
A rope to hang her with; mother, make my bed soon,
For I'm sick at heart, and fain to lie down.'

6. 'Where shall I make it, Tiranti, my son?
'Where shall I make it, my sweet little one?'
'In the corner of the churchyard; mother, make my bed soon,
For I'm sick at heart, and fain to lie down.'

* The footnotes are incomplete, I assume 6. is as I've assembled it.

Footnotes Child I f. :
f. This copy was derived from the singing of the lady who communicated e, and they naturally agree closely.
1[4], fain to lie down.
f 3 = e 4;
f 4 = e 3.


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