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Child Ballads: US Versions

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Richie 17 Oct 11 - 10:18 AM
Richard Bridge 17 Oct 11 - 11:20 AM
Arkie 17 Oct 11 - 12:09 PM
GUEST,Mick Pearce (MCP), not logged in 17 Oct 11 - 12:36 PM
Lighter 17 Oct 11 - 12:40 PM
Richie 17 Oct 11 - 02:18 PM
Richie 17 Oct 11 - 02:32 PM
Susan of DT 17 Oct 11 - 02:38 PM
Richie 17 Oct 11 - 03:19 PM
Desert Dancer 17 Oct 11 - 03:42 PM
Susan of DT 17 Oct 11 - 08:37 PM
Susan of DT 17 Oct 11 - 09:44 PM
Richie 18 Oct 11 - 09:27 AM
Richie 18 Oct 11 - 10:10 AM
Susan of DT 18 Oct 11 - 12:21 PM
Richie 18 Oct 11 - 09:44 PM
Richie 19 Oct 11 - 01:58 PM
Richie 20 Oct 11 - 01:08 PM
Richie 20 Oct 11 - 01:56 PM
Kent Davis 20 Oct 11 - 08:59 PM
Richie 21 Oct 11 - 02:17 AM
Kent Davis 21 Oct 11 - 11:16 PM
Kent Davis 21 Oct 11 - 11:23 PM
Richie 22 Oct 11 - 12:13 AM
Kent Davis 22 Oct 11 - 12:56 PM
Richie 22 Oct 11 - 11:31 PM
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Subject: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 17 Oct 11 - 10:18 AM

Hi,

Last week I started putting the Child Ballads on my web-site:

http://bluegrassmessengers.com/the-305-child-ballads.aspx

I've just started on Child no. 1 and 2. My focus is on traditional US versions

Here are the US traditional versions I've found for Child 1:

1) "The Devil's Nine Questions" by the collector Alfreda Peel, from a Mrs Rill Martin of Mechanicsburg, VA. The two recordings are sung by Texas Gladden, also by Peggy Seeger.

2) "The Devil's Nine Questions" sung Nancy Philley in 1963- Max Hunter Collection

3) "The Devil's Questions" collected by Patrick W. Gainer from the singing of Blanche Kelley, Gilmer County, WV; No Date given.

4) "The Devil's Nine Questions" by the collector John Lomax, from Texas Gladden.

5) "Child Riddles" Sung by Horton Barker from the recording of Dr. W. A. Abrams, at Boone, Watauga county, on September 14, 1941 (Brown Collection of NC Folklore)

6) "Nine Questions" sung by Margaret Tuckwiller, collected by Vivian Richardson. Greenbriar Co., WV. (No Date Given: before 1971)

7) "The Three Riddles" sung by Florence Mixer, Stonington, Maine, 1936; learned from her father. Collected Barry.

8) "The Devil's Questions" sung by Hugh Stallcup, Murphy NC 1933, by the collector John Jacob Niles

9) "There Was a Man Lived in the West" Helen Hartness Flanders printed a Vermont version in Ancient Ballads Traditionally Sung in New England 1 pp.45-50 (version a) sung by Mrs. Hattie Eldredge Hardwick collected by Marguerite Olney. Reprinted in Riddling Tales from around the World by Marjorie Dundas.

There are really eight versions since Gladden's version was learned from a traditional version.

The lyrics and MP3's sheet music are here: http://bluegrassmessengers.com/us-versions.aspx

Does anyone have lyrics to Flander's "There Was a Man Lived in the West"?

Does anyone know of other traditional US versions?

Are there any traditional US version titled "Jennifer Gentle"?

TY

Richie


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 17 Oct 11 - 11:20 AM

Useful man! Now if someone would kindly do the same with the English versions with actual or possible tunes it would be grand.


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Arkie
Date: 17 Oct 11 - 12:09 PM

Great. A very useful site just got even better. Thanks for making all this available.


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: GUEST,Mick Pearce (MCP), not logged in
Date: 17 Oct 11 - 12:36 PM

I should think that the Max Hunter's Song Collection would be a good place to check. I don't think that the Child Ballads are indexed separately though - you'll have to browse the titles.

You can also check the Roud Song Index. Use a multiple field search with USA in place collected and Child in Other Number. That returns a lot - put recording in Type to limit to recordings

Mick


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Lighter
Date: 17 Oct 11 - 12:40 PM

The entire site is amazingly useful, Richie. Congratulations!


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 17 Oct 11 - 02:18 PM

I put two early English versions with music on here:

http://bluegrassmessengers.com/english-versions-and-other-versions.aspx

I've included original text from Jamieson's "Popular Songs and Ballads," 1806.

I've attached all of Bronson's texts- will add music- put some on already.

I've attached all Roud's listings.

Haven't sorted it out much- just putting info on.

TY

Richie


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 17 Oct 11 - 02:32 PM

I checked with the Library of Congress, Jennifer Cutting said the Carpenter Collection should be available on-line in December or early next year.

Not sure if Roud put the Carpenter collection on his song index although there are a few references. Anyone know?

I have the numbers (ballads collected) on Carpenter somewhere. This will vastly extend traditional versions mostly in England.


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Susan of DT
Date: 17 Oct 11 - 02:38 PM

I assume you have Bronson. There are a large number of ballad collections, often with a book for a state. Do you need any references?


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 17 Oct 11 - 03:19 PM

Hi Susan,

I have Bronson. The Child collections online seem to be different- for example, at least several of them (earlier edition?) are missing the E version in Child 1.

Are there other traditional Child 1 versions from the US?

I have Brown, Randolph, Warner, Combs plus some of the other "state" books Virgina, SC, Ohio, Indiana.

Don't have Flanders- need lyrics from that- "There Was a Man Lived in the West"


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 17 Oct 11 - 03:42 PM

That's quite the project you're starting, Richie, but you definitely have an amazing track record on these things, much better than most. :-)

I checked the Flanders books I have, but unfortunately I don't have Ancient Ballads Traditionally Sung in New England, and "There Was a Man Lived in the West" is not in either of Vermont Folk Songs and Ballads or A Green Mountain Songster.

~ Becky in Tucson


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Susan of DT
Date: 17 Oct 11 - 08:37 PM

I have been updating my book catalog. Guess I should hit the American ballad shelves next.


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Susan of DT
Date: 17 Oct 11 - 09:44 PM

A few to start with:
Andrews, Edward        Gift to Be Simple
Beldin, H.M.        Ballads and Songs Collected by the Missouri
Bush, Michael         Folk Songs of Central West Virginia, v 1-4
Carawan, G & C        Voices From the Mountains
Cazden, N&H Hau        Songs of the Catskills
Combs, Josiah        Folk-Songs From the Kentucky Highlands
Davis, Arthur K        Traditional Ballads of Virginia
Doerflinger, W        Songs of the Sailor and Lumberman
Eckstrom, Fanny        Minstrelsy of Maine
Eddy, Mary O.        Ballads and Songs From Ohio
Johnson, J W        American Negro Spirituals
Linscott,Eloise        Folk Songs of Old New England
McNeil, W.K.        Southern Folk Ballads, Vol 1-2         
Owens, William         Texas Folk Songs
Randolph, Vance        Ozark Folksongs (abridged)
Richardson,EthelAmerican Mountain Songs
Ritchie, Jean        Folk Songs of the Southern Appalachians
Shoemaker, HenryMountain Minstrelsy of Pennsylvania
Warner, Anne        Traditional American Folk Songs


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 18 Oct 11 - 09:27 AM

Thanks for the additions Susan. I've almost finished Child no. 1 and am working on Child No. 2

Here's a question: What is the earliest U.S. recording of Child No. 2, Elfin Knight? AKA Scarborough fair-- Cambric Shirt-- Parsley Sage Rosemary and thyme--

There's nothing in Meade for Child 1-6. I have an idea.

Anyone know?

How about the earlier English recording?

Any recording- doesn't have to be a commercial recording.

Richie


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 18 Oct 11 - 10:10 AM

Hi,

I've put about 10 US versions of the Elfin Knight/Cambric shirt from the 1800s- some with music- this morning:

http://bluegrassmessengers.com/us-versions-the-elfin-knight.aspx

I also finished putting Child lengthy summary and started adding the "Bridal Sark" to the English version- BTW Child say this is a corrupt version.

Richie


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Susan of DT
Date: 18 Oct 11 - 12:21 PM

Are you familiar with this resource? Child Ballad Database It is a collection of recordings of each of the child ballads, not separated by nationality or whether it is traditional or interpreter. This Child Ballad Project was put together by Liz Anderson in Nevada (with help from lots of other people including several from here) and expanded by van Dijk in Holland.


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 18 Oct 11 - 09:44 PM

TY Susan that is a gr8 source, esp. when combined with Roud index.

I've actually been using it already. Of course the DT is always my first stop.

Richie


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 19 Oct 11 - 01:58 PM

Hi,

I've posted what I believe to be the ten earliest US and Canadian versions except for a fragment from Barry.

http://bluegrassmessengers.com/us-versions-fause-knight-upon-the-road-.aspx
False Knight Upon the Road- US & Canada Versions


1) The False Knight- Collected by Belden 1916

2) False Knight on the Road- Mrs. Jane Gentry 1916 Collected by Sharp

3) The False Knight Upon the Road- from Mrs. T.G. Coates, TN 1916; Collected by Sharp

4) The False Knight on the Road- Sung by Mrs. Sarah Finchum, Elkton, Va., November 23, 1918. Collected by Martha M. Davis, published 1929.

5) False Knight on the Road- From Ballads Migrant in New England, Flanders; Collected from Mrs. E.M. Sullivan, Springfield, VT 1932

6) The Smart Schoolboy- John Jacob Niles 1935   

7) False Knight on the Road- Edmund Henneberry, Nova Scotia (Ben Henneberry)

8) The False Fidee- Sung by Lucile Wilkin, Connersville, Ind., 1935; learned from Mrs. Chester A. Porter. published Ballads and Songs from Indiana- Brewster, 1940, pp. 29-30.

9) False Knight on the Road- Maud Long

10) "Où Vas-Tu, Mon P'tit Garçon?" Baillargeon 1956


I have some questions:

Is Edmund Henneberry from Nova Scotia, Ben Henneberry's son. Anyone have Ben Henneberry's lyrics? Did he sing the "Hi diddle" refrain?

Is the Scottish "False, False Fly" spelled False Flase Fly (False False Fly)- Barry Gleeson? This is the spelling of this title form the CD listing- it's also been titled "False false Fly." It appears to be similar to the refrain "False, fie, the False Fid-ee" collected by Brewster in 1940 in the US.


Richie


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 20 Oct 11 - 01:08 PM

I found one of the earliest US published versions- 1907 Barry. It's on;y one verse, but importantly it has other information.

I. "What have you in your bottle, my dear little lad?"
Quo the fol fol Fly on the road,
"I have some milk for myself for to drink!"
Said the child, who was seven years old.

In the article Barry references the "fol, fol fly" or the derivative, "false false fly"; here's what he says:

In this text the words "fol fol Fly" are very likely corrupted from "foul, foul Fiend;" that is, the Devil.

Richie


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 20 Oct 11 - 01:56 PM

Henneberry's are/were from Devil's Island, Nova Scotia. Here's soem info I asked about yesterday.

- Andrew Thomas Henneberry (April 24, 1817 - 1877)
       Spouse: Annie Purcell (*1821 - ?)
       Spouse: Maria Edwards (*1820 - ?) -- married July 21, 1840
                                             
- Benjamin H. Henneberry (1863 - October 12, 1951)
Ben was married at least once and was father to five daughters and three sons. Spouse: Priscilla Catherine Soward (? - ?)
                                                                  
- Edmund Clair Henneberry (Dec. 11, 1898 - 1984)(Verified)    Spouse: Elizabeth Agnes Williams (1902 - 1973)

If anyone has more info or lyrics to Ben's False Knight on the Road, let me know.

TY

Rcihie


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Kent Davis
Date: 20 Oct 11 - 08:59 PM

You may be interested in this version from SANG BRANCH SETTLERS: FOLKSONGS AND TALES OF A KENTUCKY MOUNTAIN FAMILY by Leonard Roberts, published by the American Folklore Society in 1974. It was collected by Mr. Roberts from Jim Couch of Putney, KY, in 1955. Mr. Couch learned it from his father, Tom Couch.

The Devil and the School Child

"Oh, where're you goin' there?" said the proud porter gay,
All alone by the wayside lone.
"I started to my school," said the child gentleman,
And the game feller's walking alone.

"What do you have in your bucket?" said the proud porter gay,
All alone by the wayside lone.
"It's vittles for my dinner," said the child gentleman,
And the game feller's walking alone.


"O won't you give me some?" said the proud porter gay,
All alone by the wayside lone.
"No, not a bite o' crumbs," said the child gentleman,
And the game feller's walking alone.


"I wished I had you in the woods," said the proud porter gay,
All alone by the wayside lone.
""With a good gun under my arm," said the child gentleman,
And the game feller's walking alone.


"With your head broke in two," said the proud porter gay,
All alone by the wayside lone.
"O a fence rail jobbed down your neck," said the child gentleman,
And the game feller's walking alone.


"Wished I had you in the sea," said the proud porter gay,
All alone by the wayside lone.
"Good board under me," said the child gentleman,
And the game feller's walking alone.


"Your head turned bottom up," said the proud porter gay,
All alone by the wayside lone.
"Yes, and you under the bottom," said the child gentleman,
And the game feller's walking alone.


"I wished I had you in the well," said the proud porter gay,
All alone by the wayside lone.
"But the Devil's chained in Hell," said the child gentleman,
And the game feller's walking alone.


Kent


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 21 Oct 11 - 02:17 AM

Thanks for the great version!!

I've already included it on my site:

http://bluegrassmessengers.com/us-versions-fause-knight-upon-the-road-.aspx

I've added Ben Henneberry's lyrics and figured out his son's version as well. Need to get the music on there next.

There's an article about him, The Case of Ben Henneberry, attached to his version.

Richie


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Kent Davis
Date: 21 Oct 11 - 11:16 PM

Richie,

I'm glad I could help a little on your wonderful project.

I don't know if this will work, or even be intelligible, but here is my attempt to reproduce the tune that Leonard Roberts collected from Jim Couch. I do not not know how to show a musical staff or musical notation. Also, sometimes things don't line up on the board the way they do in the preview, so I will apologize in advance if this is an unreadable mess.

The key is G. It says "pentatonic, mode 3". It is in 4/4 time. The letters under the syllables are the notes. The bold, italicized letters are higher. The 4 indicates a quarter note, the 8 an eighth note, the 2 a half note. The periods show division into measures. Maybe someone who can actually read music (I can't) can make something of it.

Oh, where're you goin' there?" said the proud porter gay,
g       g      g      g      g    g       d       d       e    e e      d
4 .    8      8      8      8    4       8       8 .    4    8 8      4

All alone by the wayside lone.
d    e g    g    g    b    d    d
8    8.4   8    8    4    4   . dotted 2

"I started to my school," said the child gentleman,
d    e    e   d d       b          g    g    a       g   g   e
4 . 8    8   8 8       4          8    8 . 4       8   8   4               

And the game feller's walking alone.
d       e      g      g   e      d    d e g
8       8   . 4      8   8      4    8 8 . dotted 2



Kent


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Kent Davis
Date: 21 Oct 11 - 11:23 PM

I see that I've lost the italics that were supposed to indicate the higher notes. I will try using capitalization. The higher notes, the high d's and e's, are the ones that go with the capitalized words:   

"...by the waySIDE LONE. 'I STARTED TO MY school,'..."

Kent


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 22 Oct 11 - 12:13 AM

TY,

You've created your own music system- congrats!

I'm back to Elfin Knight- which is simply massive on both sides of the the "big pool".

I have a question about "An Acre of Land." Where does the Kennedy version come from? Where does the "Team of rats" come from- a nursery rhyme? Is the 1904 version by Frank Bailey the earliest? The other's like the Cooper's- traditional or based on Bailey?

Where was Phillips Barry's "Six Questions" published?- I have two versions- one a recent cover.

I'm not sure about the 1908 Laird o' Elfin- is this from Grieg too? There are several version but the music seems to be from the wrong version.

Here's my US Child 2 versions so far:

Now You Are A-Going To Cape Ann- 1828
Versions from New England- Phillips Barry 1905
American Versions with music- JOAFL Article 1894
Redio-Tedio from Sybil Emery 1882
Love's Impossibilities- Mrs. R. F. Herrick 1906
The Cambric Shirt- Belden 1910 JOAFL
Strawberry Lane- Russell Davis 1914
The Lover's Tasks- Mrs. Cis Jones, KY 1917
Versions from the Brown Collection
O, Say Do You Know the Way to Selin- 1937
Go And Make Me A Cambric Shirt- Jacobs 1938
The Cambric Shirt- Mrs.G. A. Griffin; 1939
The Cambric Shirt- Jennie Gray 1961
Impossibilities- Mrs. Emma Medlin 1960
Rosemary and Thyme- Allie Long Parker 1958
The Lover's Tasks- Francis Carter Proctor 1917
The Elfin Knight- 2 Versions; Newell 1900 JOAFL
The Six Questions- Conner from Barry



Here's the link, most have music: http://bluegrassmessengers.com/us-versions-the-elfin-knight.aspx

Comments and info welcome,

Richie


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Kent Davis
Date: 22 Oct 11 - 12:56 PM

Richie,

Here's a link to two versions of Child #3, "The Elfin Knight". These are "Are Any of You Going to the Calhoun Fair?" and "O Where Are Going?", sung by the collector, Dr. Patrick Gainor, on his album "Folk Songs of the Allegheny Mountains".

The same link takes you to him singing versions of Child #'s 4, 7, 10, 11, 12, and 13, as well as a version you already have of Child #1. (You already have the text, but I don't know if you have the music.)

I have not been able to find out when he collected these ballads, but the album was recorded in 1963.

http://www.libraries.wvu.edu/wvconline/patrickgainer.htm

Kent

P.S.


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 22 Oct 11 - 11:31 PM

Hi,

Gainer and Woofter were at WV in the 1920s and unfortunately some of their (at least Woofter's) versions have been suspect- as many of Niles versions.

At the time there was competition to collect versions of the Child ballads in the US. One of the Child #3, "The Elfin Knight" versions has come into question by Wilgus and others.

Combs was there doing his doctorate on folk-songs of the south at the time when Chappell and Cox were at WV.

TY for the info. Just finished a US version and you can listen to Peggy Seeger's nice recording as well:

http://bluegrassmessengers.com/o-say-do-you-know-the-way-to-selin--1937.aspx

TY for you help- I do know the web site and plan to use all of Gainer's versions- there's alot to do!!!

Richie


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 23 Oct 11 - 12:51 AM

Here's the article on my web-site.

http://bluegrassmessengers.com/a-fraudulent-elfin-knight-from-west-virginia.aspx


Note that Gainer has the same refrain text, which is said to have been collected "from the singing of William Bush, Index, West Virginia" (no date given), reads as follows:

The Elfin Knight (Child, No. 2)

1. As I walked out in yonder dell,
A-hie-a-marukee-mirandy-o,
I met a fair damsel, her name it was Nell,
Rollickum-bollickum-dandy-o.

The article doesn't mention names but the text was collected by Woofter- Gainer's collecting buddy. I'm not passing judgement because I don't know. If anything Gainer's version may add creedence to Woofters version- tho I think it's also a bit suspicious.

Also there's no source or date given on Gainer's site- not sure why.

I'm still using Woofter's, Gainer's, Comb's, Lomax's and Niles' collected ballads and songs on my site.

Richie


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Joe_F
Date: 23 Oct 11 - 06:22 PM

This version of the Cherry Tree Carol (Child 54) is revealed to be American by the wonderful line "While Joseph stood around", so perfectly in the spirit of the original.


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 24 Oct 11 - 12:53 PM

TY

It may be American but what's the source?

Richie


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 24 Oct 11 - 01:16 PM

I believe that I learned that version from the singing of Andrew Rowan Summers.


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 24 Oct 11 - 10:34 PM

Thanks Dick,

In 1951 Summers recorded a different text he titled, Cherry-Tree Carol pt. 2.

Richie


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 24 Oct 11 - 11:24 PM

Hi,

I just posted part 2 on my site: http://bluegrassmessengers.com/cherry-tree-carol-pt-2--andrew-rowan-summers-1951.aspx

Richie


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Martha Burns
Date: 25 Oct 11 - 12:03 AM

What a great website, what great work, and what a great thread. I'm wondering if you might get additional answers by posting to BALLAD-L. An idea, anyway.


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Brian Peters
Date: 25 Oct 11 - 01:25 PM

This is already a very interesting site, and it's going to be wonderful when you progressed further with it. You've already listed some that I was unaware of.

In answer to: "Does anyone know of other traditional US versions [of Child #2]?", here are two I don't think you have listed yet:

Sarah Ogan Gunning, from Pineville, Ky, rec. 1974
On Meeting's a Pleasure (Musical Traditions)

Sara Cleveland, b Hartford NY 1905, rec. 1968
On Ballads & Songs of the Upper Hudson Valley (Folk Legacy)

Also don't forget the 'Inter Diabolus et Virgo' version of Child #1 from 15th century England, in his second chapter of 'Additions and Corrections" - the version that finally convinced the Prof that here was indeed a Devil ballad.

More from me later.


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 26 Oct 11 - 12:13 AM

Hi,

Thanks for the kind words. Just posted this US version of Child 1:

http://bluegrassmessengers.com/the-devils-nine-questions--mary-estep-1958.aspx

I like the refrain, which is quite different than most versions.

Brian- I'll check out those versions. Of course I have Child's original narrative, versions A-E and additions. I have that here on the first page:

http://bluegrassmessengers.com/1-riddles-wisley-expounded.aspx


CONTENTS:

1. Child's Narrative
2. Child's Ballad Texts A-E (E text from Volume 5)
3. End Notes
4. Footnotes
5. Additional text (Version F)
6. Appendix (Text of Inter diabolus et virgo.) (From Volume 9 "Additions and Corrections" by Kittredge)

ATTACHED PAGES (see left hand column):

1. Recordings & Info: Riddles Wisely Expounded
       Riddles Wisely Expounded- Toelken 1966
       68 Versions Roud 161
       Jennifer Gentle (Versions)

2. Sheet Music: Riddle's Wisely Expounded (Bronson's texts and some music)

3. US Versions

4. English Versions and Other Versions

I'm slowly muddling along- having hashed out Child 1-54. I'm stuck on Child 2 3 and 4 as far as finding the versions and putting in music- there's a lot, especially Child 4 for which Roud has over 800 listings.

Richie


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 26 Oct 11 - 01:06 AM

I've sorted out the US titles so far, many have music:

http://bluegrassmessengers.com/us-versions-the-elfin-knight.aspx

I'll post the rest of the music later.

Interesting to me is G.A. Griffin's version- you can listen to online- it's a country/hillbillty version collected in 1939 by Alan Lomax, then republished with music in 1950 by Morris under a different title. I've also put Morris' music. Strange!

http://bluegrassmessengers.com/the-cambric-shirt--mrsg-a-griffin-1939.aspx

I guess there are around 35 versions before 1950 so far. I haven't looked in many of my books and I have looked at all of Roud's list.

Richie


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 26 Oct 11 - 01:42 AM

In G.A. Griffin's recording you can hear a rooster crowing- haha! So is this the first recorded US version of Child 2? Maybe, I'm not positive.

I also added some great commentary from her (at the bottom of the page).

Richie


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Brian Peters
Date: 26 Oct 11 - 02:18 PM

"Of course I have Child's original narrative, versions A-E and additions. I have that here on the first page"

Apologies, there it is as you say. I went straight to the 'English Versions and Other Versions' tab, and didn't find it there.

Will respond to your PM shortly.


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Brian Peters
Date: 26 Oct 11 - 03:12 PM

"Child Riddles" Sung by Horton Barker from the recording of Dr. W. A. Abrams, at Boone, Watauga county, on September 14, 1941

Just a thought: Tom Paley once told me that Horton Barker had been given some of the Child Ballads in his repertoire by a collector - I'm not sure who. His 'Child Riddles' looks very like the Rill Martin one, except for the 'Heavier than the lead' stanzas which correspond with those in Child 1C. Might this be another case like that of Texas Gladden's version?


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 26 Oct 11 - 03:23 PM

TY Brian,

Clearly the individual ballads presented by Child should be found in 'English Versions and Other Versions' section as well.

After all, they are important Engish-Scottish versions.

I suspect Leadbelly also learned some songs from the Lomaxes. Barker has a great traditional sound. I have one of his recordings.

Richie


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 27 Oct 11 - 01:34 PM

Hi,

I've added the Child texts to my site for #1: http://bluegrassmessengers.com/inter-diabolus-et-virgo--rawlinson-broadside-1450.aspx

I don't have a date for Child C, when was it printed?

If anyone that knows the English/Scottish version can proof, I'd appreciate it.

TY

Richie


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Lighter
Date: 27 Oct 11 - 03:15 PM

> 1. As I walked out in yonder dell,
A-hie-a-marukee-mirandy-o,
I met a fair damsel, her name it was Nell,
Rollickum-bollickum-dandy-o.

Regardless of how much of the song may have been faked, the refrains are authentic.

They belong to a bawdy song collected by Edith Fowke in Ontario that begins (IIRC), "As I was walking down the street,.../A couple of whores I chanced to meet...."

Hugill gives a cleaned up version as a shanty to the tune of "Camptown Races," with "hoodah" choruses.

But shanty singers will also recognize "Rollickum-bollickum-dandy-o" as a variant of a very different shanty, Hugill's "Ballockin' Randy Dandy!" (which he euphemized print as "Rollicking...," and which Colcord gives as "Galloping...").



All in all, an interesting distribution.


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 28 Oct 11 - 02:27 AM

Good point- but that's not what Wilgus and Bernth Lindfors think.

I just put Woofter's version on my site:http://bluegrassmessengers.com/as-i-walked-out-in-yonder-dell--william-bush-1924.aspx


I'm trying to add some info to make the Child English/Scottish versions interesting:
http://bluegrassmessengers.com/the-cambrick-shirt--joseph-ritson-1793-child-g.aspx

Richie


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Lighter
Date: 28 Oct 11 - 10:25 AM

There's no disagreement. I'm suggeesting that Woofter knew the bawdy song and substituted those refrains. Oddly he didn't employ them all the way through.

What seems to me "suspicious" about Gainer's text, if anything, is the number of rural-American substitutions, like French grass, bullfrogs and toads, the West Fork, and the "old church land." It sounds almost too good to be true, but I haven't examined all the available texts.

Gainer's singing, at Richie's link, is worth listening to.


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 28 Oct 11 - 02:21 PM

I've been putting the child versions on my site, they are of course mainly English/Sciottish versions.

I have no dates for Motherwell. Most of the Child versions say manuscript but they are not in Motherwells two books- that I have access to. Anyone know how to access Motherwell's manuscripts?

I'm working on the Elfin Knight, Child 2 here are my questions:

1) Child Version L is found in the 1853 journal- Notes and Queries, Volume 7 - Page 8; It's titled "Old Song" Signed D for (Draufield).
What/where/who is Draufield? I figure it's a town or location.

2) Apparently 'The Deil's Courting,' Motherwell's Manuscript,' p. 103, (what's the date?) is found also in Crawford Collection of about 1827 (Lyle). Does anyone have that version. Is it the same as Motherwell's?

3) Version K is from Halliwell's Nursery Rhymes of England, 6th ed., p. 109, No 171. Does the 1846 edition have the song? I suspect that it's much older than even 1846. Where is it first found?

Any help would be appreciated,

Richie


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Lighter
Date: 28 Oct 11 - 03:25 PM

Draufield seems not to be a place. If it's a surname, it's extraordinarily rare.

Maybe it's a misprint for "Dranfield," a village near Sheffield. Any correspondence printed in 1853 must have been based on a handwritten, and conceivably hard-to-read, original.

Buit that's only a guess.


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 28 Oct 11 - 06:41 PM

See for yourself: http://books.google.com/books?id=fQHgAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA100&dq=Notes+and+queries:+Volume+7+-+Page+8+1853&hl=en&ei=ay6rTpmKDIfVgAec54X


You may have to enter page 8 or go to page 8. It's clearly- Draufield which I assumed was the author, his intital is also used- D.

I try to go to the original source, if possible, so I can understand where Child got his versions. Plus there is additional information not included which I am including.

Richie


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 28 Oct 11 - 06:48 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OGEw58N0sOM&feature=fvsr

Some cute teenagers rewrote the unquiet grave. I think they did a great job and have real talent in writing traditional-sounding words...maybe give them a compliment if you go there. mg


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Lighter
Date: 28 Oct 11 - 08:32 PM

I'm not 100% certain that the "D." even refers to "Draufield," though certainly it may. The note after that signed "D." is signed "D.X." If "D." is for "Draufield," what's "D.X." mean? If one person sent in all three items, why isn't the name "Draufield" applied clearly, at the end, to all three of them?

Extensive searches of British newspapers as well as of the Web turn up fewer than a dozen people named "Draufield." An "Hon. Mem. R. Draufield" is mentioned in passing in a Darbyshire paper of the 1890s. The title may imply membership in the House of Commons, but I can find no further information about him.

In contrast, "Dranfield" appears many times as a surname as well as the name of an English village.

The available evidence allows no firm conclusion as to whether the name connected with the ballad text was intended to be "Draufield" or "Dranfield" or something else abbreviated as "D." Even if "Draufield" is correct, the person who sent in the ballad appears for now to be untraceable.


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 29 Oct 11 - 12:37 AM

Hi,

I assumed the whole article, "Folk Tales"- which includes the song, was by the same person so that would probably be "Draufield." The other D. would be an ibid. Not sure why there was a D.X.

A small point and probably untraceable for now. The best place to look would be in other Notes and Queries- and I didn't find anything.

Not that it matters but this information is not attached to the current editions on the Child Ballads.

TY Lighter by-the-way for your imput. This is new ground for me and I simply haven't studied each version enough and it's history to know off-hand.

Richie


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