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Lyr Req: She Was Poor (Same The Whole World Over)

Lighter 24 Sep 19 - 08:22 PM
robomatic 24 Sep 19 - 03:42 PM
Joe_F 24 Sep 19 - 03:19 PM
Lighter 24 Sep 19 - 06:47 AM
GUEST,Gerry 29 Nov 18 - 06:49 PM
GUEST,Martin Ryan 29 Nov 18 - 03:33 AM
Jim Dixon 28 Nov 18 - 11:48 PM
GUEST 04 Jul 17 - 02:03 AM
robomatic 17 Mar 17 - 05:22 PM
robomatic 17 Mar 17 - 05:17 PM
GUEST,aranar 17 Mar 17 - 01:07 PM
GUEST,keberoxu 18 Oct 16 - 01:33 PM
Lighter 18 Oct 16 - 12:52 PM
GUEST,keberoxu 18 Oct 16 - 01:50 AM
Jack Campin 17 Oct 16 - 08:16 PM
Charley Noble 19 Oct 11 - 05:13 PM
BTNG 19 Oct 11 - 04:53 PM
Lighter 19 Oct 11 - 04:45 PM
Lighter 19 Oct 11 - 09:45 AM
Lighter 19 Oct 11 - 09:38 AM
MGM·Lion 19 Oct 11 - 08:29 AM
Lighter 19 Oct 11 - 08:25 AM
GUEST,SteveG 19 Oct 11 - 04:35 AM
Genie 19 Oct 11 - 12:17 AM
Charley Noble 18 Oct 11 - 10:13 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 18 Oct 11 - 09:20 PM
Lighter 18 Oct 11 - 08:45 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 18 Oct 11 - 07:07 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 18 Oct 11 - 06:57 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 18 Oct 11 - 06:38 PM
Joe_F 18 Oct 11 - 06:36 PM
Lighter 18 Oct 11 - 06:04 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 18 Oct 11 - 05:24 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 18 Oct 11 - 05:15 PM
Lighter 18 Oct 11 - 03:25 PM
Lighter 18 Oct 11 - 03:12 PM
GUEST,SteveG 18 Oct 11 - 03:07 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 18 Oct 11 - 02:52 PM
Jack Campin 18 Oct 11 - 02:24 PM
Lighter 18 Oct 11 - 01:37 PM
MartinRyan 18 Oct 11 - 12:59 PM
Jack Campin 18 Oct 11 - 12:51 PM
MGM·Lion 18 Oct 11 - 12:12 PM
Genie 18 Oct 11 - 11:59 AM
MartinRyan 18 Oct 11 - 11:45 AM
MGM·Lion 18 Oct 11 - 09:53 AM
Lighter 18 Oct 11 - 08:59 AM
Charley Noble 18 Oct 11 - 08:51 AM
MGM·Lion 18 Oct 11 - 08:27 AM
Lighter 18 Oct 11 - 08:09 AM
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: She Was Poor (Same The Whole World Over)
From: Lighter
Date: 24 Sep 19 - 08:22 PM

In his Autobiography (1951), the American poet William Carlos Williams recalled a party he'd attended in Paris in 1924:

“To relieve the bad moment, someone asked Bob [McAlmon] to sing ‘Bollicky Bill’ (did they mean me?), which he did from beginning to end. After that it was ‘She Was Poor But She Was Honest.’ We all joined in.”

[Present, among others, were James Joyce, Mina Loy, Marcel Duchamp, Man Ray, Sylvia Beach, Louis Aragon, and Ford Madox Ford.]


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: She Was Poor (Same The Whole World Over)
From: robomatic
Date: 24 Sep 19 - 03:42 PM

Blackmail
10cc

She doesn't need money, she doesn't need diamonds
She's lookin' for pretty things
She doesn't want romance, she doesn't need finance
She's looking for rendezvous
But every time she's going down
She never looks around
I'll wait and watch her with my lens
Until she brings the curtain down
'There behind the keyhole' with my fisheye


I'm back in the darkroom, I'm covered in fixer
I'm making a photograph
I'll send her some postcards, in glorious colour
I'm keeping the negatives
I'll form a letter from the news
With different type from different lines
I'll tell the world about her
I'll mail the People and the Times
"Ooh, it'll be so scandalous for the both of them... but mainly her!"

She showed them her husband, he ordered a dozen
He thought they were fabulous
The one with the --------------, the two of the ----------------
And three of the --------------
He sold her to Hefner, who put her in Playboy
He gave her a centre-fold
I made a real blunder, she made it in movies
I made her a superstar


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: She Was Poor (Same The Whole World Over)
From: Joe_F
Date: 24 Sep 19 - 03:19 PM

A more recent addition (early 20th century, at a guess) to the theme of immorality as the road to fortune is We Never Mention Aunt Clara:
"I've reached the conclusion that virtue's its own,
And also its only, reward."


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: She Was Poor (Same The Whole World Over)
From: Lighter
Date: 24 Sep 19 - 06:47 AM

Lt. L. A. Hansen, P-40 pilot, 7th Fighter Sqdn., USAAC, "My Stretch in the Service":

"[Nov. 17, 1942:] Major Herman, a flight surgeon, came in last night as drunk as a coot. It was funny as hell to hear him singing with an Aussie accent. His favorite song goes like this:

                ‘It's the same the whole world over,                                                                        
                Ain't it all a bloody shame,                                                                                
                It's the rich that get the clover,                                                                        
                And the poor that get the blame.'

What a man and what a voice. He sounds like an Allison [engine] missing on one bank and throwing a rod on the other!"


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: She Was Poor (Same The Whole World Over)
From: GUEST,Gerry
Date: 29 Nov 18 - 06:49 PM

The DT also contains the Si Kahn song, It's the same the whole world over with the chorus,

But it's the same the whole world over; happens all the time.
The woman who's the victim gets convicted of the crime.
Yes, it's the same the whole world over; always been the same,
The guilty claim they're innocent and the victim gets the blame.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: She Was Poor (Same The Whole World Over)
From: GUEST,Martin Ryan
Date: 29 Nov 18 - 03:33 AM

NIce one, Jim!

Regards


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Subject: Lyr Add: SHE WAS POOR BUT SHE WAS HONEST (Bennett)
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 28 Nov 18 - 11:48 PM

You can hear this at YouTube:


SHE WAS POOR BUT SHE WAS HONEST
Weston & Lee
As recorded by Billy Bennett, 1930; also on “Vintage British Comedy, Vol. 1” (2011)

It’s the syme the ’ole world over.
It’s the poor what gets the blyme.
It’s the rich what gets the pleasure.
Isn’t it a bloomin’ shyme?


She was poor but she was honest,
Though she came of ’umble stock,
And an honest heart was beating
Underneath her tattered frock.

’Eedless of her mother’s warning,
Up to London she had gone,
Yearning for the bright lights gleaming,
’Eedless of tempta-shy-on.

But the rich man saw her beauty—
She knew not his base design—
And ’e took her to a ’otel
And bought her a small port wine.

Then the rich man took her riding,
Wrecker of poor women’s souls,
But the devil was the chauffeur,
As she rode in his Royce Rolls.

In the rich man’s arms she fluttered
Like a bird with a broken wing,
But he loved her and he left her.
Now she hasn’t got no ring.

It’s the syme the ’ole world over.
It’s the poor what gets the blyme.
It’s the rich what gets the pleasure.
Isn’t it a bloomin’ shyme?


Standing on the bridge at midnight,
She says: “Farewell, blighted love!”
There’s a scream, a splash, good ’eavens!
What is she a-doing of?

See; she sinks into the water
On a night as black as pitch.
As she comes up for the third time,
She says: “Curse the idle rich!”

Soon they dragged ’er from the river.
Water from her clothes they wrang.
They all thought that she was drownded,
But the corpse got up and sang:

It’s the syme the ’ole world over.
It’s the poor what gets the blyme.
It’s the rich what gets the pleasure.
Isn’t it a bloomin’ shyme?


- - -
Discographical information at 45worlds.com.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: She Was Poor (Same The Whole World Over)
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jul 17 - 02:03 AM


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: She Was Poor (Same The Whole World Over)
From: robomatic
Date: 17 Mar 17 - 05:22 PM

It wouldn't do to reveal the guilty party of that episode, suffice it to say that Perry Mason only ever lost one case!


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: She Was Poor (Same The Whole World Over)
From: robomatic
Date: 17 Mar 17 - 05:17 PM

This song appeared on a "Perry Mason" episode where the plot turned on a Perry Mason 'ringer' hired to get the eponymous hero into trouble by making it look like he showed up where he shouldn't and did a bad thing. The plotters had the problem that the 'ringer' was a cockney sailor with a penchant for drinking and singing. He sang that very song with the gravy variant:

"It's the same the 'ole world over,
it's the poor what gits the blime,
It's the rich what gits the grivy,
'Cor ain't it a bloomin' shime!"

When faced with Perry Mason himself he referred to him as his "NEM-I-SIS"


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: She Was Poor (Same The Whole World Over)
From: GUEST,aranar
Date: 17 Mar 17 - 01:07 PM

The snip I was brought up with was:
It's the syme the 'ole wheld over,
Isn't it a bleedin' shame,
It's the rich wot gets the gravy
An' the poor wot gets the blame.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: She Was Poor (Same The Whole World Over)
From: GUEST,keberoxu
Date: 18 Oct 16 - 01:33 PM

And talking of parodies, here are Flanders and Swann (the lyrics anyway)

"Ballad for the Rich"


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: She Was Poor (Same The Whole World Over)
From: Lighter
Date: 18 Oct 16 - 12:52 PM

Jack, the only real similarity I see is in the first line, and without any other corresponding features, that may well be coincidental. After all, in the song the girl is "standing on the bridge"; in the poem, a narrator "stands on the bridge."

The meter may not mean much either: many songs use it, including, just for example, "Rolling Home."

Here's a 1902 recording of the poem set to music:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LvnK5TRM-Q

The tune is unlike that of the song, but the date may be consistent with the song's appearance.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: She Was Poor (Same The Whole World Over)
From: GUEST,keberoxu
Date: 18 Oct 16 - 01:50 AM

The live album, "The Truth About 1812," ends with a parody of "She Was Poor But She Was Honest."
The duo have the audience sing along on the chorus, which is the chorus everybody knows.
However the singer has written his own verses parodying the well-known version. The audience is practically weeping with laughter.

The entire show/album is present as a YouTube video.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: She Was Poor (Same The Whole World Over)
From: Jack Campin
Date: 17 Oct 16 - 08:16 PM

I just found this, by Longfellow. Same metre and enough verbal overlaps to suggest that the bawdy/music-hall song is a parody of it.

https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/50463


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: She Was Poor (Same The Whole World Over)
From: Charley Noble
Date: 19 Oct 11 - 05:13 PM

Such a well-traveled song should eventually be nailed down but it's not nailed down yet.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: She Was Poor (Same The Whole World Over)
From: BTNG
Date: 19 Oct 11 - 04:53 PM

Then there's these The Bridge at Midnight


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: She Was Poor (Same The Whole World Over)
From: Lighter
Date: 19 Oct 11 - 04:45 PM

The DT midi of "The Gypsy's Warning," from Harry Peters's "Folksongs out of Wisconsin":

http://mudcat.org/@displaysong.cfm?SongID=2462

I hear a slight resemblance between the tunes, but it may be coincidental. Randolph's tune is less similar.

Looking more closely at Randolph's text, I suppose that stanza three (and maybe four) suggests "Poor but Honest," though very indirectly:

"Lady, once there lived a maiden,
Pure and bright, and like thee fair,
But he wooed, he wooed and won her,
Killed her gentle heart with care.

"Then he heeded not her weeping,
Nor cared he her life to save,
Soon she perished, now she's sleeping
'Neath the cold and silent grave."

(Consider the line, "For he wooed and he seduced her" / "For he wooed her and he screwed her," etc., in the same third-line position in its stanza.)

The words quoted are spoken by the mysteriously protective Gypsy to a maiden about to fall for a wealthy cad.

Whether or not the creator of "Poor but Honest" was consciously parodying "The Gypsy's Warning," the "Warning" is certainly representative of the tradition he (surely not "she") was reacting to.

The British Library lists the composer of "The Gypsy's Warning"
as "Henry A. Goard," not "Coard." Its correct date appears to be "1878." It appears also that Goard's song took its cue from an 1838 opera of that name by Sir Julius Benedict. There are several sheet-music publications of Benedict's opera, or perhaps merely melodies from the opera, including one by A. Devaux in 1864, and apparently one by Goard in 1872, but what connection these might have with "PBH" remains unknown.

It's a long shot, but the possibility remains open that the "PBH" tune originated in Benedict's 1838 opera.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: She Was Poor (Same The Whole World Over)
From: Lighter
Date: 19 Oct 11 - 09:45 AM

Worth noting: in B&P's 1930 printing of the song, even the word "piles" was replaced with a dash as "unprintable."


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: She Was Poor (Same The Whole World Over)
From: Lighter
Date: 19 Oct 11 - 09:38 AM

To each his own.

Brophy & Partridge's bawdy text from 1914-18 (not printed till years later) continues the sordid story after the champagne but significantly makes no mention of a "wealthy marriage."

In it, the heroine winds up back home "cracking ice for grandpa's piles," quite as in "Life Presents a Dismal Picture."

No early version includes the suicide attempt. That also persuades me that it's a later accretion.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: She Was Poor (Same The Whole World Over)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 19 Oct 11 - 08:29 AM

Lighter ~ In the coherent Penguin version I refer to above, she sends champagne home to her unforgiving parents while still kept by her seducer; but goes downhill when replaced in his favours, and eventually ends up on the bridge at midnight. Makes perfectly good sense.

~M~


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: She Was Poor (Same The Whole World Over)
From: Lighter
Date: 19 Oct 11 - 08:25 AM

Genie, I was thinking of versions - perhaps cobbled together - that logically end with the very clever irony of having "made a wealthy marriage" and sending champagne to her parents, who hypocritically enjoy   it even though "they never can forgive."

Some of these then pick the story up again on the bridge. Either conclusion makes poetic sense, but not both together.

It's also unclear whether the "bridge" stanzas were originally printable or otherwise. In fact, that goes for the entire song, though what evidence there is suggests that it was considerably tidied up for wider circulation.

A tune that bears a close similarity is "In and Out the Window," which is used for other British bawdy songs.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: She Was Poor (Same The Whole World Over)
From: GUEST,SteveG
Date: 19 Oct 11 - 04:35 AM

A closer possible candidate for inspiring PBH would be 'The Alderman's Lady' Roud 2533 starting 'A nobleman lived in a mansion, he courted his own servant maid.' I think this goes back to the 18th century on street lit.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: She Was Poor (Same The Whole World Over)
From: Genie
Date: 19 Oct 11 - 12:17 AM

Lighter,
I don't think the transition from being (accepted by the) high class to being down and out and jumping off a bridge in despair is hard to understand, in the version I posted above.

She's poor (and honest). She meets a wealthy squire (or two) and for a while is a "kept woman" living the high life (riding in carriages, sending champagne home to her aged parents). (Nowhere does it say she, herself is rich.) Then the (second) squire "callously" leaves her (presumably penniless) without a ring. So she's back to being poor but has "lost her name" as well and is despondent. Why could that not have been the original story?
Not saying it is - I don't know - but it makes perfect sense to me.

Genie


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: She Was Poor (Same The Whole World Over)
From: Charley Noble
Date: 18 Oct 11 - 10:13 PM

Randolph is a useful reference but it's not clear when he dates the ditty in question. "The Gypsy's Warning" may have inspired or provoked this ditty but the ditty doesn't appear to me to be a parody of "The Gypsy's Warning."

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: She Was Poor (Same The Whole World Over)
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 18 Oct 11 - 09:20 PM

Lighter, I am missing the same connection you are between G. W. and P.b.H. I printed Randolph's comments without remark, but I agree that it is a far stretch to connect the two songs.
The Clipler parody is, of course, very late, not collected until 1957.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: She Was Poor (Same The Whole World Over)
From: Lighter
Date: 18 Oct 11 - 08:45 PM

Except for the perfectly ordinary meter (like that of "Clementine"), I don't see any similarity in text or tune or theme between "The Gypsy's Warning" and "Poor but Honest."

What am I missing?

According to Ed Cray, the "Clipper" song is much more recent parody of "Poor but Honest."

Auden's claim that "PBH" is a "Victorian ballad" seems to be based on intuition alone.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: She Was Poor (Same The Whole World Over)
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 18 Oct 11 - 07:07 PM

Genie and Gurney posted versions of "She Was Standing on the Bridge at Midnight." Does anyone have another, or the first version?


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Subject: Lyr Add: BIG JOE CLIPLER
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 18 Oct 11 - 06:57 PM

Lyr Add: BIG JOE CLIPLER
anon.
She was poor, but she was honest, she was honest,
Victim of a rich man's whim !
She took a ride with Lou'siana's Christian Gov'nor,
And she had ay child by him !
2
Now he sits in legislature, legislature,
Making laws for all mankind,
While she walks the streets of N'Orleans, Lou'siana,
Selling grapes from her grapevine.
3
Now the moral of this story, of this story,
Is don't ever take a ride
With Lou'siana's Christian Gov'nor, Big Joe Clipler,
And you'll be a virgin bride.
4
It's the rich who gets the glory, gets the glory,
It's the poor who have to pay,
It's the same the whole world over, over, over,
It's a low-down dirty shame !

Sung by a girl student at the University of Arkansas... as part of a collection of college and sorority songs...."
"The name of the Gov'nor and his state of the Union have been changed to avoid libel."

(Now why did that make me think of a certain Christian governor who is running for the White House?).


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: She Was Poor (Same The Whole World Over)
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 18 Oct 11 - 06:38 PM

Vance Randolph says: "Usually performed in exaggerated (Cockney) accent to its heavily rubato British tune, "It's the Syme the Whole World Over," Leisy, pp. 95-95. As is seldom recognized, this famous music-hall travesty (which has a bawdy parody of its own, in England, "She was Standing on the Bridge at Midnight"), is intended as a take-off on the almost equally lachrymose "The Gypsy's Warning," of which the author is unknown- prpbably on purpose, though the copyright was claimed in the name of DD. S. Holmes- first published "with music arranged by Henry A Coord" in 1864. This is given in Randolph's Ozark Folksongs, No. 743A (ed. Norm Cohen, 1982) pp. 525-26, with the tune, and with lines of a pathos too heart-rending to quote.
Randolph notes: "The famous Cherry Sisters from Cedar Rapids, Iowa, who convulsed Broadway in 1896, sang the song as part of their soul-stirring dramatic sketch entitled "The Gypsy's Warning," Coard's tune is even more languorous and hysterical than the rather muted one now used, but both feature the same wild, sudden upward vocal swoops at the least .....expected places ..... by way of extravagent cockney or hillbilly pathos and unconscious humor."

Randolph makes these comments with his pseudonymous Big Joe Clipper, pp, 286-288, 1992, Roll Me in Your Arms, Volume I, Folksongs and Music; University of Arkansas Press.

I will post the text later.
Gargoyle, thread 51881, gave the texts of "The Gypsy Warning" included by Randolph in Ozark Folksongs, vol. 4, no. 743, pp. 219-222.
Tune reg The Gypsy's Warning


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: She Was Poor (Same The Whole World Over)
From: Joe_F
Date: 18 Oct 11 - 06:36 PM

Q: In Auden's collection (1938) the attribution is: "Victorian ballad. Orally collected." The title there is "Poor but Honest". In Amis's collection (1978), it is: "Anon. 'She Was Poor But She Was Honest.' Auden (ed.), _The Oxford Book of Light Verse_ (1938), supplemented by oral collection."


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: She Was Poor (Same The Whole World Over)
From: Lighter
Date: 18 Oct 11 - 06:04 PM

I've found a slightly earlier publication of a complete text, also in the American Mercury (Dec., 1925), sent in by Sarah Halm of New York with the note, "I don't know who wrote the ancient Cockney song of 'She was poor but she was honest,' but here is the version given me by an Englishman who visited America last year."

There are six stzs., all (again) rather like Sandburg's; there's no bishop or chaplain, however. Stanza 6 is "It's the sime...," which is not indicated as a chorus.

Some of Sandburg's stanzas more or less duplicate each other. In this case that suggests conflation rather than "incremental repetition."

Halm titles her stanzas "The Song of Shime."

A reader had inquired after the name of the author in the September issue. He gave the opening lines only.

Frank Shay's "My Pious Friends and Drunken Companions" (1927) prints seven stanzas and the chorus, "As sung by Harrison Dowd, Provincetown, Mass., 1925." Again like Sandburg, no bishop or chaplain. In the final stanza (after the "wealthy marriage" and the unforgiving, champagne-sipping parents)the girl kills her child.

That too sounds to me like an addition.

Dowd (1897-1964) was an American actor, musician,and poet. He was a close friend of Edna St. Vincent Millay.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: She Was Poor (Same The Whole World Over)
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 18 Oct 11 - 05:24 PM

For those who might be interested in Disher's book:

Disher, Maurice Wilson, 1955, Victorian Song: From Dive to Drawing Room, Phoenix House, London. Reasonable cost from used book dealers.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: She Was Poor (Same The Whole World Over)
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 18 Oct 11 - 05:15 PM

As posted by guest Steve G., neither Bennett nor Lanchester could have performed the song before 1900. Adding to Steve G's post, Kilgarriff notes that "M. Wilson Disher declared the original unprintable though not without literary merit, and that his memories of the song 'belong to the Grey Brigade of London volunteers after the South African War' (Victorian Song. 46)."
He also notes that a version was published in Bawdy Ballads (MSL.) and lists the song as 'anon.'

It doesn't sound like a soldier's song, and probably was from at a music hall or saloon performance, but nothing definite so far.

Not in Fuld.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: She Was Poor (Same The Whole World Over)
From: Lighter
Date: 18 Oct 11 - 03:25 PM

Steve, any version that might have appeared in a booklet of "popular songs" around 1901 would have had to be pretty tame. Tamer even than Sandburg's, I'd think.

And tamer than that might mean merely the original of a later parody.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: She Was Poor (Same The Whole World Over)
From: Lighter
Date: 18 Oct 11 - 03:12 PM

We know the name of at least one person who is said, on apparently good authority, to have added stanzas to the song. Unfortunately we don't know what they were.

Referring to the period right after the First World War, the journalist George Slocombe writes in "The Tumult and the Shouting" (1936) that

"The Morning Post was then represented in Berlin, and subsequently in Paris, by the late Lester Lawrence, a timid and scholarly man with an unsuspected quality of wit, who surprised his friends once by writing additional stanzas, in perfect verse of the period, to the ancient London ballad which begins, 'She was Poor but she was Honest.'"


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: She Was Poor (Same The Whole World Over)
From: GUEST,SteveG
Date: 18 Oct 11 - 03:07 PM

Apologies for misleading with the Sims reference earlier. Now I've had a chance to check Disher and Kilgarriff the latter seems convinced that Sims is not the author, although in order for him to make this statement, he must have seen similar references to what I vaguely remember.

Kilgarriff refers to the Billy Bennett (1887-1942) repertoire, but also gives it in Elsa Lanchester's repertoire (1902-1986) alongside such pieces as The Old Dun Cow and Your baby has gorn dahn the plughole. He dates it as c1901, presumably after Disher. It might have some relevance in dating the other 2 Cockney songs in Lanchester's repertoire. The fact that it doesn't appear on broadsides would favour a later rather than earlier date around that put forward by Kilgarriff. The c1900 equivalent of broadsides was booklets of 30-40 popular songs and it may well turn up in one of these.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: She Was Poor (Same The Whole World Over)
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 18 Oct 11 - 02:52 PM

No relation, but the late Victorian "She is More to be Pitied than Censured" by Willia B. Gray, words in the DT, came to mind.
In it, "a girl who had fallen to shame" because "....a man was the cause of it all." Youtube has the Beatrice Kay rendition (with correct words) and the Stanley Bros. version which is a hash, but with good 'pickin'.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: She Was Poor (Same The Whole World Over)
From: Jack Campin
Date: 18 Oct 11 - 02:24 PM

There's not a lot of information at all. No specific references and it's described as "anonymous".

Seems to me the tune might be distantly related to "Red River Valley".


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: She Was Poor (Same The Whole World Over)
From: Lighter
Date: 18 Oct 11 - 01:37 PM

It seems to me that the transition from wealth to being "on the bridge at midnight" is far too sudden and perverse to be anything other than an addition (or, if the song was originally bawdy, a remnant).

Either way there are two seemingly opposite climaxes.

If she's a millionaire, what's she doing on the bridge in the first place? Besides, the switch from the subtlety of "they never can forgive" to the "blackheads" business doesn't seem plausible as the work of a single brain. telling a coherent story.

But mind you, I'm only talking about the supposed original. If the verbally tame "champagne" version is a rewrite, anything becomes possible.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: She Was Poor (Same The Whole World Over)
From: MartinRyan
Date: 18 Oct 11 - 12:59 PM

Thanks, Jack - does he give or imply a date? Copy of sheetmusic? Anything to suggest contemporary popularity or perceived age?

Regards


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: She Was Poor (Same The Whole World Over)
From: Jack Campin
Date: 18 Oct 11 - 12:51 PM

I've got The Illustrated Victorian Songbook here in front of me, what do you want to know?

The editor says his version is a collated one, assembled by David Wykes in 1984.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: She Was Poor (Same The Whole World Over)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Oct 11 - 12:12 PM

A 1980 record on the Forest Tracks label, The Mellstock Quire ( a W Country group) [FT 3016] contains a setting, to one of Hammond's Dorset tunes for The Bold Grenadier, of The Ruined Maid.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: She Was Poor (Same The Whole World Over)
From: Genie
Date: 18 Oct 11 - 11:59 AM

Yes, in the version I learned from Theodore Bikel (posted above), as in the story line of the Penguin Comic & Curious Verse version, early on in her "losing her name" to men in high places the lass is living the high life as a 'kept woman' and sending champagne to her aged parents (who, like "Aunt Clara," is not forgiven). She starts out well-off because of her dalliances but ends up cast off and poor again and throws herself off the bridge (then sings the chorus after she's pulled from the river).


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: She Was Poor (Same The Whole World Over)
From: MartinRyan
Date: 18 Oct 11 - 11:45 AM

I see a student essay for sale online comparing/contrasting "She was poor..." with "The Ruined Maid"!

Can nobody lay hands on "The Illustrated Victorian Songbook" mentioned earlier in the thread?

Regards


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: She Was Poor (Same The Whole World Over)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Oct 11 - 09:53 AM

The champagne in the version I know best {Penguin Comic & Curious Verse} occurs earlier.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: She Was Poor (Same The Whole World Over)
From: Lighter
Date: 18 Oct 11 - 08:59 AM

It obviously would require inclusion in any future overhaul of Child's "English and Scottish Popular Ballads." Along with "The Bloody Great Wheel" and perhaps others of a similar nature.

If they're not "E&SPBs," what are? (Perhaps I should add "unfortunately.")

In one story line, the heroine sinks further and further into poverty and disease, and ends as a singing corpse after being rescued from the river.

In the other, which is the earliest explicitly referred to in print, she winds up sending her bottles of champagne to her parents.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: She Was Poor (Same The Whole World Over)
From: Charley Noble
Date: 18 Oct 11 - 08:51 AM

I wonder if this ditty also inspired "Heaven Will Protect the Working Girl" which has this lovely verse:

You can tempt your upper classes
With your willful demitasses,
But Heaven will protect the working girl!

Cheerily,
Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: She Was Poor (Same The Whole World Over)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Oct 11 - 08:27 AM

originally seems to end with the heroine ridiculously wealthy··············.

No, surely not ~ the story used to end with her on the bridge at midnight, singing farewell blighted love; a scream, a splash, good 'eavens, what is she a doing of! So they dragged her from the river, water from her clothes they wrung; and they thought that she was drownded, but the corpse got up and sung ~~~ OOOOhhhh I't the syme....

(I too admire The Ruined Maid ~~ fine sardonic, ambivalent piece of work.)

~M~


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: She Was Poor (Same The Whole World Over)
From: Lighter
Date: 18 Oct 11 - 08:09 AM

FWIW, the rags-to-riches-via-sexual-immorality theme was immortalized by Thomas Hardy in his once shocking poem, "The Ruined Maid" (1866).

Unfortunately, there are no further similarities between the two.


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