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BS: Palestine

mg 02 Oct 11 - 11:35 AM
GUEST,keith A 02 Oct 11 - 11:15 AM
mg 02 Oct 11 - 10:57 AM
GUEST,keith A 02 Oct 11 - 09:38 AM
MGM·Lion 02 Oct 11 - 09:34 AM
McGrath of Harlow 02 Oct 11 - 09:29 AM
GUEST,Teribus 02 Oct 11 - 03:28 AM
mg 01 Oct 11 - 09:25 PM
mg 01 Oct 11 - 08:40 PM
Mrrzy 01 Oct 11 - 08:15 PM
mg 01 Oct 11 - 08:02 PM
Stringsinger 01 Oct 11 - 07:52 PM
MGM·Lion 01 Oct 11 - 05:35 PM
Mrrzy 01 Oct 11 - 04:32 PM
GUEST,keith. 01 Oct 11 - 03:57 PM
mg 01 Oct 11 - 03:25 PM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Oct 11 - 02:16 PM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Oct 11 - 12:24 PM
GUEST,livelylass 01 Oct 11 - 12:23 PM
Mrrzy 01 Oct 11 - 11:34 AM
MGM·Lion 01 Oct 11 - 06:00 AM
McGrath of Harlow 01 Oct 11 - 05:21 AM
MGM·Lion 01 Oct 11 - 01:42 AM
GUEST,mg 30 Sep 11 - 09:43 PM
GUEST,999 30 Sep 11 - 06:11 PM
McGrath of Harlow 30 Sep 11 - 06:03 PM
MGM·Lion 30 Sep 11 - 05:22 PM
MGM·Lion 30 Sep 11 - 05:11 PM
GUEST,mg 30 Sep 11 - 02:53 PM
McGrath of Harlow 30 Sep 11 - 02:21 PM
MGM·Lion 30 Sep 11 - 02:10 PM
McGrath of Harlow 30 Sep 11 - 01:59 PM
mg 30 Sep 11 - 01:30 PM
Teribus 30 Sep 11 - 11:21 AM
MGM·Lion 30 Sep 11 - 06:14 AM
McGrath of Harlow 30 Sep 11 - 05:40 AM
GUEST,mg 30 Sep 11 - 12:55 AM
Teribus 30 Sep 11 - 12:24 AM
GUEST,mg 29 Sep 11 - 11:36 PM
GUEST,mg 29 Sep 11 - 07:13 PM
McGrath of Harlow 29 Sep 11 - 07:03 PM
Teribus 29 Sep 11 - 05:34 PM
Stringsinger 29 Sep 11 - 04:00 PM
Mrrzy 29 Sep 11 - 11:10 AM
McGrath of Harlow 29 Sep 11 - 10:18 AM
Keith A of Hertford 29 Sep 11 - 09:53 AM
Keith A of Hertford 29 Sep 11 - 09:34 AM
Keith A of Hertford 29 Sep 11 - 08:27 AM
GUEST,keith A 29 Sep 11 - 08:19 AM
Jim Carroll 29 Sep 11 - 08:06 AM
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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: mg
Date: 02 Oct 11 - 11:35 AM

Yes.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: GUEST,keith A
Date: 02 Oct 11 - 11:15 AM

So you would admit that they exist, but deny that they had a right to exist?


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: mg
Date: 02 Oct 11 - 10:57 AM

I am not talking about recognizing that a country exists and going through various protocols..I am talking about making them admit that the country that is occupying them (in general, theoretically speaking) has a right to exist. Why add that bit of humiliation and case for future bitterness? That is different than admitting that they do exist and we will grit out teeth and bear it and follow standard international practices. of course it does not mean as long as you refuse to admit of a "right to exist" you get to attack them, etc. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: GUEST,keith A
Date: 02 Oct 11 - 09:38 AM

" I suspect that most countries may well never get round to formally recognising each other, "

I am no expert but I think that is wrong.
WIthout recognition can you have diplomatic contact, consular representation, trade or even visitors with an unrecognised passport?


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 02 Oct 11 - 09:34 AM

McG ~ Have a look at Teribus' answer, just before your last post. What else do you want by way of answer?


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Oct 11 - 09:29 AM

I took it that mg was talking about a process of formal recognition. I suspect that most countries may well never get round to formally recognising each other, any more than individual people formally recognise each other or families formally recognise one another.

In fact formal recognition feels like something you'd do because the process of informal recognition had broken down.
.........................
Mrrzy ~~ IMO your question has been dealt with adequately in the answers above wrote MtheGM. I can't see it myself. There've been people saying they are for or against recognition, and lots of stuff about events long ago - but I haven't seen much if anything directly about why recognition is something that should be opposed. I may have missed something - it's a long thread.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 02 Oct 11 - 03:28 AM

"Why are we stuck on countries recognizing each other? If the majority of the world recognizes each and both, why impose that sticking point on the disputing countries? What is gained exactly? They are competitors..I just don't understand why anyone has to recognize anybody..business people are going to do business with each other; laws have to be just; there have to be security measures in place..so why make them swallow their pride? What is the point?

And don't bother telling me than if they don't recognize each other they will attack each other. One doesn't seem to have much to do with the other. You can have good security without imposed recognition..but the world has to watch." - mg


This is without doubt the most idiotic thing I think I have ever read in my life.

To answer the various points put:

1: "Why are we stuck on countries recognizing each other?"

Because that recognition allows countries to be governed, that recognition allows nations to be separate but yet allows them to co-operate and peacefully co-exist pursuing what are perceived to be their national interests and protecting their cultures and way of life. If there was no recognition of countries the world would be a massive lawless free for all.

2: "If the majority of the world recognizes each and both, why impose that sticking point on the disputing countries?"

Ah, but the majority of the world does not recognize "each" and "both". All member states of the UN recognize Israel and did so formally in 1949. All states that have subsequently been created on joining the UN have had to formally recognize the existing member states. In 1949 the Arabs of Palestine had the opportunity to create their own state and rejected the proposal, they did so for greed in the hope of personal gain from the anticipated destruction of Israel and the eradication of her people.

The UN cannot in all honesty, out of respect to its own founding charter, give official recognition to and welcome into its membership a state (Palestine) whose declared aim is the destruction and annihilation of a long standing member of the United Nations (Israel). You are basically inviting the fox into the hen house and hoping for eggs for breakfast tomorrow morning as usual - utterly idiotic.

3: "What is gained exactly?"

In recognizing Israel and settling their differences?? For Palestine?? Any hope at all of survival. As previously stated any Palestinian State and the people who live within it borders rely on Israel in order to survive. They rely on Israeli services, the rely on the Israeli economy. Why haven't Jordan and Egypt over the last 63 years taken up the slack and developed trade and industry with the people of the West Bank and Gaza to provide them with alternative markets for their produce and for their labour? Oh that's right they couldn't because both Egypt and Jordan were too busy feeding the Palestinians a load of bullshit about how everything would be perfect for them once they had killed off all the Jews and destroyed Israel.

4: "They are competitors..I just don't understand why anyone has to recognize anybody..business people are going to do business with each other; laws have to be just; there have to be security measures in place..so why make them swallow their pride? What is the point?"

As stated above - survival for Palestine. Israel can function and is economically viable as a state without having to rely upon a single Palestinian. Why make them swallow their pride?? Because for 63 years they have been wrong, for 63 years they have consistently chosen violence over peace, they have to admit to themselves that they have been wrong in order that they can move forwards.

5: "And don't bother telling me than if they don't recognize each other they will attack each other. One doesn't seem to have much to do with the other. You can have good security without imposed recognition..but the world has to watch."

A tale of two Palestines - Gaza and the West Bank:

What happened? The Israelis leave Gaza completely and for their gesture are rewarded with a constant stream of missiles, rockets and mortar bombs raining down on their citizens. From the West Bank, Iranian and Iraqi backers sponsor suicide bombers to cross the porous borders to kill indiscriminately in Israeli cities, snipers from inside the West Bank randomly kill Israelis going about their daily lives. As far as the West Bank goes all this stops when Israel closes the border and builds a wall - What has happened to the intent to attack from the Arab side of that Wall? There is no doubt at all that both regimes in Gaza and in the West Bank would attack Israel - they have said so, they have stated it in their founding charters.

The only thing is while things remain as they are (i.e. Palestine not being a "State") the leaders of those regimes in Gaza and in the West Bank can deny responsibility and claim that those carrying out the attacks are a renegade few. Once Palestine becomes a "State" the regimes in charge become responsible for controlling their renegades, they are responsible for either delivering or bringing them to justice. If they do not and the attacks continue (as they undoubtedly would) then Israel would be perfectly justified in declaring war and attacking the newly recognized state of Palestine.

By the bye we, the world, have been watching for 63 years - what good has that done?


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: mg
Date: 01 Oct 11 - 09:25 PM

I am wondering something else..are we prejudiced against people who were born on rocky soils? Do we think they do not make good farmers? Or perhaps are they adapting to what they are given? Sustainability perhaps? I know anything said here about the farmers of Palestine could be said about my ancestors..they were rock farmers who had to build up the soil by dragging baskets of seaweed up..surely someone with outside capital could have improved productivity..but should we sneer when people do the best they can with what they have at the time? mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: mg
Date: 01 Oct 11 - 08:40 PM

Why are we stuck on countries recognizing each other? If the majority of the world recognizes each and both, why impose that sticking point on the disputing countries? What is gained exactly? They are competitors..I just don't understand why anyone has to recognize anybody..business people are going to do business with each other; laws have to be just; there have to be security measures in place..so why make them swallow their pride? What is the point?

And don't bother telling me than if they don't recognize each other they will attack each other. One doesn't seem to have much to do with the other. You can have good security without imposed recognition..but the world has to watch. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Mrrzy
Date: 01 Oct 11 - 08:15 PM

S- Israel should not have to recognize Palestine and Palestine should not have to recognize Israel. What you propose is certainly fair, but, since Israel exists, shouldn't they both have to recognize each other?

Either way, I agree with the part where They should not hurt each other, they should not impose settlements, they should not throw rocks, they should not cut off supply lines or appropriate water.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: mg
Date: 01 Oct 11 - 08:02 PM

My question was, do you think that recognition of Palestein's existence be up to Israel, or were the Palesteins (new word, thank you Jon Stewart) correct in going straight to the UN?


---

Here is the definitive answer then.

Israel should not have to recognize Palestine and Palestine should not have to recognize Israel. They should not hurt each other, they should not impose settlements, they should not throw rocks, they should not cut off supply lines or appropriate water.

This mess was created by others and will have to be somewhat patched up and fixed by others. Why should someone with the upper hand want to negotiate over land and water it has gotten? It is not human nature. Of course third parties, in fact most of the world, has to be involved and there have to be borders and boundaries on all sides..perhaps with walls and checkpoints and certainly with all sorts of security for all. Improvements can be made..no one will be totally happy but the world is a world of woe and we just have to do the best for all that we can. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Stringsinger
Date: 01 Oct 11 - 07:52 PM

Dennis Miller might chew on the fact that there is no Jewish Race. It is a religion and rather disjointed one at that where Jews in one nation don't understand the habits of those in another nation.

You might have heard of Shlomo Sand from Tel Aviv U.
Here's what he has to say.

Invention of the Jewish people

Sand's provactive book

Naturally what he is saying is being discredited vehemently by Zionists. It calls into question as to who are not only Palestinians but who are the Zionists and what right do they have to be in Israel?

Are we dealing with two sets of peoples who base their feud on mythical concepts?

One group is occupying and subjugating another for religious ideological reasons.
The other is being occupied and subjugated for religious ideological reasons.

The defenders of the occupation of Gaza turn out to be proportionately Christian, who rationalize their position based on "scripture".

In the meantime, innocents are dying in a bantustan. All efforts of peace are being thwarted by the US whose negotiations rely on supporting Israel over an incipient nation of Palestine.

Houston, we have a problem.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Oct 11 - 05:35 PM

Mrrzy ~~ IMO your question has been dealt with adequately in the answers above, however much RELEVANT background has {according to viewpoint} obtruded or been adduced in evidence.

No definitive answer has been forthcoming, but what do you expect? Mudcat is not, after all, the undisputed World Government.

Yet!


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Mrrzy
Date: 01 Oct 11 - 04:32 PM

Does anyone else find it entertaining that, after my question was restated, nobody has tried to answer it again, preferring to digress into whether prior digressions were thread creep?

But then, I take a lot of things as part of life's floor show.

My suggestion, and I think I get to make one, is that if you feel that you rather than your arguments are being attacked that you point out the ad hominem fallacy and go back to the argument.

Alternatively, if you don't like someone's argument, say why rather than saying so, and say nothing about the arguER.

Feel free to creep wherever as long as you aren't being a creep about it, quoi!


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: GUEST,keith.
Date: 01 Oct 11 - 03:57 PM

Yes, but the suggestion is that a creep back to old, worn out, thread bare arguments is less not more interesting.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: mg
Date: 01 Oct 11 - 03:25 PM

aren't conversations supposed to creep and take interesting turns? mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Oct 11 - 02:16 PM

Kevin, on day 2 you referred to people flogging old disputes.
Why did you not challenge the instigator?

It is natural to challenge posts that you consider to be wrong, even though it adds to thread creep.
You yourself were drawn into discussing captured lands, chemical weapons, etc.

It is the instigator who should be taken to task, as you did with me when I answered a question about agriculture.
But never a word to the arch creep.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Oct 11 - 12:24 PM

MGof H, perhaps if you had said something when one person started all the thread creep on day 2.

They brought up the incursion into Gaza and much older stuff, making claims they knew from previous arguments were so contentious that they would not go unchallenged.

Or when that same person resumed the discussion of a closed thread so that child abuse in N England was discussed on this thread!

I was the only person who questioned the relevance.
You let him get on with it unchallenged.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: GUEST,livelylass
Date: 01 Oct 11 - 12:23 PM

Mrrzy, you could request that a Mod split the thread into two, one continuing the discussion of your opening question and the second generic thread-drift around it?


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Mrrzy
Date: 01 Oct 11 - 11:34 AM

My question was, do you think that recognition of Palestein's existence be up to Israel, or were the Palesteins (new word, thank you Jon Stewart) correct in going straight to the UN?

Not sure what y'all are interpreting my "main" and "secondary" questions weto be.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Oct 11 - 06:00 AM

But not the ONLY one.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Oct 11 - 05:21 AM

"...main question."


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Oct 11 - 01:42 AM

"Hence Mrrzy's opening post in this thread:" ~~

of which, McGrath, you omit the opening, setting-in-context, sentence; which is the one which all the background info, which you have been so vociferously objecting to as it doesn't fit your agenda on the matter, spells out as a preamble to Mrrzy's main question.

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 09:43 PM

Oh dear. Then it was not truly worthless..sort of like kinetic energy. Or speculation perhaps. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: GUEST,999
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 06:11 PM

"If you can keep to musical metaphor, even better."

A duet will sound like shit unless they are in tune, no matter that someone mandates everyone who hears it to also enjoy it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 06:03 PM

We've had umpteen threads about the ins and outs and the historical events behind this whole conflict.

Right now there's a fresh development that hasn't been there before, and which hasn't been discussed before. Hence Mrrzy's opening post in this thread:

So, my question for the forum is: Given that Israel was carved out of that region, should it or should it not be up to Israel to determine whether Palestine gets to be a nation now? Or, in a more open form, what do you think of the Palestinians going straight to the UN, which seems to some to be an end run around the US and Israel (I'm not sure who else is on that side of the fence)?

I am curious about the tenor of opinion here. Our views often harmonize, and we can keep our tone civil when differences of opinion become discordant. If you can keep to musical metaphor, even better.


That seems a good idea to me. Plenty of threads about the historical background are there waiting to be reopened, or a new one started.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 05:22 PM

"why was it bought by anyone? WHo would buy worthless land?"
,.,.,
Well there's a silly question! Haven't you been listening?

TO DEVELOP & RELEASE ITS POTENTIAL FOR FERTILITY FOR USE AS AGRICULTURAL LAND BY DILIGENT LABOUR AND THE USE OF AVAILABLE TECHNOLOGY, so that it was no longer worthless. That is what happened to land in Negev, Golan ... So with real dog-in-mangerdom, some of those who had let it degenerate to that state would now like to get it back ~~ presumably to let it go back to the state it was in before: see those informative aerial maps posted above showing the meeting point of lands around Gaza currently being farmed by the Israelis, Egyptians, Palestinians. Someone asked truculently whether that was supposed to show that Arabs couldn't use land, then. No comment. Just look at the evidence for yourself, mg.

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 05:11 PM

The topic of this thread, McGrath, is "Palestine", as you will observe if you simply raise your eyes approx ½". I see no indication or compulsion in that designation to suggest that it should be confined purely to the question of that territory's present ambitions regarding UN membership. It is a part of the world with a history relevant to consideration of that ambition, which is what many of us have been pursuing. If you think a thread is required which considers, purely & in isolation, "The present question re Palestine's UM membership", then there is nothing to prevent YOU from starting a thread with that title, & having a great deal of entertainment communing with YOURSELF within it. But if you look back throughout the present one, you will observe that that is not the interpretation most have chosen to place upon its topic.

So, please, please, pretty-pretty-pretty-please, will you be so good as to stop being so insufferably prescriptive as to what the rest of us wish to include within this one.

There's a dear fellow...

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 02:53 PM

Do we know for sure that in the first 40 years..which can we say exactly what those 40 years are? I presume before end of WWI.

I am always leary when someone says there were no peasants. Sounds sort of like the Highland Clearances. Well, there were some but the Lord HIgh Muckety Muck actually owned the land and blah blah...

Were there accurate censi done then and there? A lot of times peasants can be hidden among the bracken so to speak. A lot of times they are wanderers..oh dear..like travelers..or Beduoin perhaps..

Are we really and truly convinced that in a particular place and time there were no peasants there and the land was really and truly worthless? In which case why was it bought by anyone? WHo would buy worthless land? Unless they thought there were diamonds hidden in the rocks or something.

But whilst this might have been the beginnings of change in the Holy Land, it was not the the last...arid but profitable lands were acquired and families were displaced. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 02:21 PM

Talking past each other aren't we?

Palestine has applied for membership of the UN, most UN members favour this. That's what I'm trying to talk about here.

It's very very easy to start a thread to talk about other stuff that isn't relevant.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 02:10 PM

Listen, MccGrath, please ~~ I will say it again···

The points you are making about purchase & dispossession do not apply at all to the empty barren desert territory purchased & developed and made fertile by the pioneers of the first 4 decades of C20 in Palestine: your point that

"friction between evicted peasants and immigrants taking over purchased land was a major factor in civil unrest"

is nonsensical in the context of the land purchases we are discussing, because there were NO peasants there to BE evicted.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 01:59 PM

That was an example of how "a legitimate purchase" can mean people being dispossessed, in response to suggestion that this could never happen.

This is something that has happened, and continues to happen in many places at many times, when landlords, especially absentee landlords, sell property, and the purchasers have plans that don't include the residents staying on.

There is no doubt that friction between evicted peasants and immigrants taking over purchased land was a major factor in civil unrest between the wars in Palestine.

But in any case all this is totally irrelevant to the issue of Palestinian membership of the UN.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: mg
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 01:30 PM

I think part of the problem can be traced to Chernobyl...tragic consequences all the way around there...rich farmlands and dairylands destroyed..which puts economic pressure on people, which leads to discrimination which might have waned otherwise...which leads to immigration if people can immigrate..forced immigration combined with religious fervor combined with a practice of using them in settlements as human barricades...leads to all sorts of problems. I have not seen this brought up..maybe I am wrong on all counts..just a thought. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Teribus
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 11:21 AM

"I will instantly put in the right of everyone to live free from the threat of attack. I would not ask an oppressed people to humiliate themselves by having to say a country has the right to exist. I would put it in more businesslike terms that I have explained before..that it does exist and it is not going away and civilities will be practiced..but why insist on something that will stick so in their craw? The objective is to have security and safety for all."

1: It does not affect the price of rice in China one jot what YOU say is a right. What is important is that both sides IN THE CONFLICT have to acknowledge the right each has to live free from threat of attack. Had not one attack been mounted from inside Gaza or from the West Bank THERE WOULD HAVE BEEN NO ATTACKS BY THE ISRAELIS.

2: I most definitely ask the side in the conflict that has continually demonstrated their preferrence for violence over peace over 63 years to publicly acknowledge Israel's right to exist because until they do that Israel will always be under threat and will act accordingly. There should also be severe penalties should the Arabs of Palestine ever renege on this point - Their track record is that they have never lived up to or honoured a single agreement they have made with regard to Israel and the peace process.

3: If you wish "to have security and safety for all" then the side that contiually reaches for the gun and talks about annihilation of the Jews had best either be brought to book or be left to face their fate.

Plain fact of the matter is Israel can live very well without Palestine - Palestine cannot live a day without Israel - Yet from your posts it is Israel that must do this and Israel must do that. The Arabs of Palestine and their thieving and corrupt leaders have squandered opportunity after opportunity over a period of 63 years, high time they learned from their mistakes, as far I am concerned, the next time they attack, let them fight it out to the finish, once and for all and let's be done with it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 06:14 AM

McGrath ~ Not really a relevant news item. The points made above were not about the purchase of houses in towns & cities, which was the question at issue in the Haaretz piece, but of barren and unproductive areas of land ~ desert, in fact ~ which were purchased by bodies like the JNF {Jewish National Fund}, and developed to productivity & fertility by pioneer groups by irrigation and agriculture. Previously these had been uninhabited, so nobody was 'displaced' or 'dispossessed' by the purchase.

Not the same thing at all.

Try again ~ if you feel inclined and can find any material to support such an endeavour.

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 05:40 AM

An example of "how people who had legitimately purchased land managed to dispossess people at one and the same time": From Haaretz - UN, U.K. slam Israel's eviction of Arab families from East Jerusalem


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 12:55 AM

I will instantly put in the right of everyone to live free from the threat of attack. I would not ask an oppressed people to humiliate themselves by having to say a country has the right to exist. I would put it in more businesslike terms that I have explained before..that it does exist and it is not going away and civilities will be practiced..but why insist on something that will stick so in their craw? The objective is to have security and safety for all.

Did I say a DMZ in Palestine? No, I did not. I would assume it would be shared by both countries from their lands where settlers are now settling. Obviously disputed territory.

Yes..there are times when people have to be killed if they are intruders, terrorists, etc. and are endangering others severely and there is no other way to subdue them.

Sometimes walls are the only way to control a situation. But they have to have little openings, securely guarded, where people have ingress and egress and vegetables from the destroyed but hopefully now rebuilt greenhouses can get through. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Teribus
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 12:24 AM

"When the place you and your family have been living in perhaps for generations is sold by an absentee landlord and the new owner evicts you, that feels very like dispossession"

And this happened where Kevin?

I say again just in case you missed it before. The Turks sold the Jews land that they considered to be worthless - gardens of rocks - swamps - Nobody lived ON IT OR FROM IT.

Tell us what industries were "native" to the area. I can list the towns and cities that sprang up due the industries and businesses the Jews created. They created employment and the most numerous source of a workforce were Arabs, but most of them were drawn into the area - they did not "live there".

"The Palestinian youth in particular have to be told in no uncertain terms what they are not to even think of...that the world will come down heavily on them." - mg

And exactly how is the "world going to come down heavily on them"?? Kill them?? Give them a good stern talking to?? It is not the Palestinian youth that are the problem it is the thiefing leadership of the likes of Hamas, Fatah and Hezbollah THEIR view has to change.

A DMZ in Palestine?? Have you had a look at a map of the place?? No room that is why there is a wall. And the Wall worked - no Israeli's getting shot from inside the West Bank - now far far harder for suicide bombers to sneak into Israel - no rockets fired from the West Bank into Israel because Fatah are not as idiotic as Hamas, Fatah has seen what happens when you fire rockets into Israel - The Israelis hit back a damn sight harder.

Interesting mg in your list of things that MUST HAPPEN there is no wringing from the Arabs of this Palestine of yours that they must recognise the right of Israel to exist and the right of Israelis to live free from threat of attack.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 29 Sep 11 - 11:36 PM

Not sure when the greenhouse story, or stories took place. But the good news is that many greenhouses were apparently repaired..hopefully the probably foolish young men who looted them and sold scrap metal etc. have been suitably but not horribly punished. Remember what Chief Joseph said...he lost everything because he could not control the young men. That is true in so many circumstances..we really do not know what to do with young men, in U.A. and elsewhere, especially where there are not enough jobs.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/28/world/africa/28iht-gaza.html

This was in 2005. They said they employed thousands of people and did $20 million in business. I just read I think a recent report about delays in border crossings and $6 million of vegetables is being held up. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 29 Sep 11 - 07:13 PM

What are steps that should be taken to insure the security of Israelis, while moving towards a state for Palestinians?

Removal of settlements, with a DMZ I would imagine. No smashing of greenhouses or property. The Palestinian youth in particular have to be told in no uncertain terms what they are not to even think of...that the world will come down heavily on them. At the same time, there need to be opportunities for training and work. Groups such as Heifer could probably help restock herds. There has to be watchdogging of water..oops the aquifer went dry...oops dead animals ended up in the well..the Israelis need to be told that they are going to lose whatever infra or extrastructure they put into those settlements, so kiss them goodbye. The Palestinians need to be told here are your future schools, barns, houses, so treat them with respect. There has to be a financial as well as international outrage consideration to those settlements..you have just spent millions of dollars providing for the future of people you wish would just go away. There need to be noise limits and pollutant limits lest anyone think they can bribe new Palestinian officials to put in an arsenic factory to bring in cash...There need to be international watchdogs as to what is taught in the schools. There need to be access to cities and to ports..not blocked off. Religious sites for either and other groups need to be maintained by an international police force if necessary.

Water is the key I think. I do not think this is a religious dispute. It is a land and water dispute and should be treated that way.

Also, the world needs to examine why it let this go on so long. I think one reason is we subconsciously equate the Palestinians with the Nazis and the Holocaust. They were not responsible for it. Put the blame where it belongs and don't confuse totally innocent people with others who got tangled up in monstrous behavior. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Sep 11 - 07:03 PM

how people who had legitimately purchased land managed to dispossess people at one and the same time.

When the place you and your family have been living in perhaps for generations is sold by an absentee landlord and the new owner evicts you, that feels very like dispossession... Whether in 19th century Ireland or 20th century Palestine, for example.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Sep 11 - 05:34 PM

So ploughing through highly biased links that record only attacks made by one side and ignore the atrocities carried out by the Arabs of Palestine is not being "selective"? And "thousands" of Arabs massacred?? Hardly.

Haganah - Jewish self defence group set up in the 1920's to protect themselves from attacks by Arabs. This organisation ONLY EVER DEFENDED.

Irgun - More militant members of Haganah who broke away. During the Arab revolt (1936 - 1939) Irgun mounted RETALIATORY RAIDS in response to Arab attacks. As the days of the mandate were drawing to a close the "Convoy of 35" attack by the Arabs prompted Irgun to review its strategy and tactics and the gloves finally came off.

The UN had ordered the ending of the Mandate and the end of a British presence in Palestine, while the UN might have been able to do something (but I strongly doubt it) Britain most certainly could not.

Still silence from our lawyer Mr. Bridge on how people who had legitimately purchased land managed to dispossess people at one and the same time.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Stringsinger
Date: 29 Sep 11 - 04:00 PM

The problem will not be solved by Jewish Settlements, AIPAC or Alan Dershowitz.
BDS might have some effect.

Any mandates delivered in the past have no validity today since the boundaries have become arbitrarily fluid depending on whose mandates are accepted.

Negotiations with Netanyahu are impossible, a reactionary politician who hides behind a false Judaism, a Zionism that is only now defined by demagogues.

The Palestinians are forced into a reactionary position and are denied economic parity with Israel.

At the root is a many-epoch battle of two religions. Secularization for both countries is the only answer, though the U.S. is offering no such model with their faith-based initiatives and Christian biases, resulting in Muslim denigration.

Obama is not the president to solve these problems because of his own personal bias, religious, pro-war, and Wall Street connections.

A coalition of a secular non-violent revolution in the US, Israel and Palestine is the only solution by the grass roots people of these countries.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Mrrzy
Date: 29 Sep 11 - 11:10 AM

Finding happens too, LOL.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Sep 11 - 10:18 AM

Looting happens in situations like this. There was also of course a lot of destruction by settlers of property left behind in their expulsion. That kind of thing happens in situations like this. It's sad, but nothing to do with whether people are Jewish, Muslim, Christian or Hindu. It's a human flaw

As for Gaza, it's a war zone, with widespread destruction. It's hardly surprising agriculture and horticulture has been hit. ( Google search - Farmers shot in Gaza )

So is the point of all this to suggest that Arabs are not fit to rule themselves, or to look after a country? I can't see how it is relevant otherwise.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Sep 11 - 09:53 AM

"Jewish children at a greenhouse in the Gadid settlement the week before the handover. The Jewish settlers in Gaza had built some of the most state-of-the-art agricultural facilities in the world, exporting flowers, fruit and vegetables to Europe and elsewhere, and employing thousands of Palestinians, Israelis, and others.

Wealthy Jewish philanthropists in the U.S. (as well as a couple of prominent non-Jewish ones such as Bill Gates) bought the Gush Katif hothouses for $14 million and donated them to the Palestinian Authority. The hothouses had taken years to build, but as PA police looked on, Palestinian mobs ransacked them within hours of the Israeli exit. They stripped them of their glass, wiring, computer and electronic equipment and irrigation pipes and timers, destroying a vital source of employment for Gaza Palestinians in the process."


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Sep 11 - 09:34 AM

On Google Earth you can toggle between 2010 and 2003 views of Gaza.
There was more cultivation then.
Some pics here of the settlers' greenhouses in Gaza, and what became of them.http://www.tomgrossmedia.com/ExodusFromGaza.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Sep 11 - 08:27 AM

Confirming my post.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: GUEST,keith A
Date: 29 Sep 11 - 08:19 AM

"You really are going to try and make this one stick "
No. It is done.

"Only by the perps"
The militia?
IDF denies any involvement, and there is no evidence.
Or do you have some Jim?
If you do I will join you in condemnation.
I do condemn their failure to intervene.

"Don I do now " believe"
He asked me.
I was not making a case.
There rest of the sentence makes clear I only believe because those who said it have deep knowledge, are anti-racist and are Pakistanis themselves.
My case was only the over-representation


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Sep 11 - 08:06 AM

"You deleted those warnings because they weakened your case."
You really are going to try and make this one stick - good luck!!!
"Yes there has. It is disputed."
Only by the perps - and you of course, who continue to defend racist atrocites and persecutions - unsurrprisingly!!
"I kept telling you, over and over, my case was just the over-representation."
"Don I do now " believe that all male Pakistani Muslims have a culturally implanted tendency"
"UNITED NATIONS,"
Although the US has declard its intention to veto statehood - (and to think I went and got drunk on the strength of Obama being elected!) it has also said that it will defend ALL it's interests in The Middle East - now that should be an interesting attempt to square a circle!!
Jim Carroll


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