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BS: Palestine

GUEST,Don Wise 20 Oct 11 - 06:45 AM
GUEST,Confused of Dagenham 20 Oct 11 - 06:39 AM
Keith A of Hertford 20 Oct 11 - 06:39 AM
MGM·Lion 20 Oct 11 - 06:36 AM
MGM·Lion 20 Oct 11 - 06:00 AM
Jim Carroll 20 Oct 11 - 05:33 AM
MGM·Lion 20 Oct 11 - 05:26 AM
Keith A of Hertford 20 Oct 11 - 04:19 AM
Jim Carroll 20 Oct 11 - 03:39 AM
Keith A of Hertford 19 Oct 11 - 07:52 PM
Keith A of Hertford 19 Oct 11 - 07:45 PM
Keith A of Hertford 19 Oct 11 - 07:39 PM
Mrrzy 19 Oct 11 - 06:29 PM
MGM·Lion 19 Oct 11 - 06:17 PM
MGM·Lion 19 Oct 11 - 06:08 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 19 Oct 11 - 05:20 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 19 Oct 11 - 05:12 PM
MGM·Lion 19 Oct 11 - 03:44 PM
Mrrzy 19 Oct 11 - 02:36 PM
MGM·Lion 19 Oct 11 - 01:01 PM
MGM·Lion 19 Oct 11 - 12:56 PM
MGM·Lion 19 Oct 11 - 12:47 PM
MGM·Lion 19 Oct 11 - 12:41 PM
Jim Carroll 19 Oct 11 - 11:09 AM
Jim Carroll 19 Oct 11 - 11:01 AM
GUEST,beardedbruce 19 Oct 11 - 09:18 AM
Keith A of Hertford 19 Oct 11 - 08:38 AM
Jim Carroll 19 Oct 11 - 08:34 AM
MGM·Lion 19 Oct 11 - 07:16 AM
Jim Carroll 19 Oct 11 - 06:42 AM
McGrath of Harlow 19 Oct 11 - 06:22 AM
MGM·Lion 19 Oct 11 - 05:49 AM
Keith A of Hertford 19 Oct 11 - 05:04 AM
Jim Carroll 19 Oct 11 - 04:52 AM
Keith A of Hertford 19 Oct 11 - 03:39 AM
Lox 19 Oct 11 - 03:33 AM
Keith A of Hertford 19 Oct 11 - 02:51 AM
Keith A of Hertford 19 Oct 11 - 01:14 AM
Lox 18 Oct 11 - 07:01 PM
Keith A of Hertford 18 Oct 11 - 05:01 PM
bobad 18 Oct 11 - 04:30 PM
Mrrzy 18 Oct 11 - 04:09 PM
Keith A of Hertford 18 Oct 11 - 03:42 PM
Keith A of Hertford 18 Oct 11 - 03:35 PM
Jim Carroll 18 Oct 11 - 01:01 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 18 Oct 11 - 12:26 PM
Lox 18 Oct 11 - 11:54 AM
Keith A of Hertford 18 Oct 11 - 11:52 AM
Jim Carroll 18 Oct 11 - 11:47 AM
Keith A of Hertford 18 Oct 11 - 11:19 AM
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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: GUEST,Don Wise
Date: 20 Oct 11 - 06:45 AM

This thread has drifted so far off topic that it has degenerated into a pointless, 3 person, slanging match.

I suggest the mod(s) go for a mercy killing NOW.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: GUEST,Confused of Dagenham
Date: 20 Oct 11 - 06:39 AM

I have always understood that there is a difference between anti-semitism and opposition to some of the more extreme actions of the Israeli state.

Adopting a line on eg Israeli killing of innocent Palestinians does not automatically make one ati-semitic. Or am I missing something, MtheGM?

And what is with this "invective" accusation? I read your post as being a base attack on Jim Carroll. Nothing more, nothing less.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Oct 11 - 06:39 AM

mysterious "cultural pervert" claiment

No mystery.
It came from the 5.
"cultural implant" was the term Don invented to describe their view.
Not a phrase I would have chosen, but I went along with it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 20 Oct 11 - 06:36 AM

Here you are ~ answer to your question, in the form that I put it to Don a few posts back:

"the insidious and invidious use of phrases designed to wind up Jews: phrases of baleful, distressing, offensive associations and connotations to them all ~~ "Nazi echoes, holocaust in reverse" ~~ not once but again & again & again; with the obvious intent of offending and distressing Jews who read it: he has been told time & again of the offensive connotations, but goes on unashamedly insulting & distressing them with these locutions.
If that is not the action of a deliberate and intentional antisemite, what is?"

You know these are offensive terms to Jews, whatever their context. You have climbed down from the pathetic "only a matter of scale" to the highly questionable claim that "nobody has attempted to suggest it is anything like the scale of the holocaust"; but you have persisted in using the terms, knowing their offensive nature, with no sort of apology or attempt to moderate them.

I repeat ~~

If that is not the action of a deliberate and intentional antisemite, what is?

Now, forget your accusations of "invective" and of my "hiding behind pleas of antisemitism" and the rest of it; and let us have an answer as to why it is not antisemitic to rant on in these terms as you have been doing.

And others reading this: I implied a challenge a few posts back. Let me put it explicitly ~~

If you think I am unjustified in accusing Carroll of manifesting antisemitism in his persistent use of these terms, clearly of offensive and distressing association to Jews, on a thread which will obviously be of interest to Jewish Catters ~~ do please say so. Let's hear it for Jim, the oh-so-objective non-antisemite who wouldn't dream of expressing any opinion but one in opposition to Israeli policy.

Come on. Let's be having you ~~ who wants to be associated with the terms in which Jim has chosen to express his views?


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 20 Oct 11 - 06:00 AM

Oh, "invective", is it? Bit rich coming from the one with the constant, intentionally offensive, let's·wind·the·yids·up rants: the nonstop never·ending litany of Nazi & Holocaust. Beneath contempt, Carroll ~~ that's where you have opted to take your station.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Oct 11 - 05:33 AM

"Haven't noticed a lot of support for you on the thread of late, though, have we, JC? "
I haven't seen one single qualification of your spineless accusations - which will do me nicely thank you
I have invited you to produce one example of my critising anything other than Israeli policy and like 'Bear with little Brain's' mysterious "cultural pervert" claiment - nothing.
Please - both of you - feel free to produce something (anti- Semitism and/or "cultural implant" should you find it.   
Now you really are reduced to invective!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 20 Oct 11 - 05:26 AM

Haven't noticed a lot of support for you on the thread of late, though, have we, JC? ~~ I expect that will be because you have come out, & made the explicit antisemitism of your position so manifest to all, that your few erstwhile supporters are now embarrassed to be associated with you, old Mr Antisemitic Piggibigjobz.......


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Oct 11 - 04:19 AM

concentrate on two issues - chemical weapons and the Shatila/Sabra massacres

Only because you kept bringing them up.
But you produce nothing to back up your claims.
Chemical weapons-factually wrong.
The massacres-disputed with no proof of guilt.

writing off of the entire male population of a whole cultural group as cultural perverts (LIE)

The 5 stated it came from culture, I did not.
Who is exposed to that culture?


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Oct 11 - 03:39 AM

"Don, does Jim claim that he has been persuaded by Pravda,"
No he doesn't - he has been persuaded by all the evidence of all the massacres since the establishment of the State of Israel, even before the clearence of the Palestinian villages as the British troops left - I suggest anybody with any doubt googles Israeli atrocities - national newspapers, Channel 4 news, BBC reports, photographs, films inteviews with both Israelis and Palastinians - all inhumanity is there.
Comments from a UN special advisor to be going on with:
http://www.prisonplanet.com/israel-accused-of-massive-war-crime-atrocities.html
You really are shitty pair of atrocity apologists and racists - wonder which of you is going to have the honour of changing your name to David Irving.
Israel's terrorism is now a matter of history, it's published and it's filmed, it has been investigated by officially set up committees - it is on record.
Keith seems to have decided that the safest way is to go is to concentrate on two issues - chemical weapons and the Shatila/Sabra massacres - again a matter of history.
"& before he comes back yet again with what he sees as their attempted disclaimers about 'warning us not to interpret their comments as racially based'"
If you have any evidence of my attacking anything other than Israeli policy, please produce it.
Rings a bit hollow from somebody who has defended as non racist the writing off of the entire male population of a whole cultural group as cultural perverts - the only "evidence" offered being the opinions of a handful of politicicians, none of whom have made anything near the "cultural implant" claim that has been disowned, denied and blamed on others by its real creator.
"Not 'mine' at all, but that of Alibhai-Brown, Straw,and two Pakistani community leaders & spokesmen."
Seems that you're further down Keith's road than was at first apparent - one more teetering step and you'll be right out of the closet.
Have a good day - I'm off to the clean wholesome air of the funeral of a great man.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Oct 11 - 07:52 PM

Sorry.

Don, does Jim claim that he has been persuaded by Pravda, but only because it has impeccable credentials and its knowledge is beyond question?


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Oct 11 - 07:45 PM

Don, does Jim claim that he has been persuaded by Pravda because it has impeccable credentials and its knowledge is beyond question?


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Oct 11 - 07:39 PM

Jim, chemical weapons.
Everyone here now knows that wp smoke rounds, though dangerous, are not as dangerous as actual weapons, and wp is not classed as a chemical weapon in any form.
You calling it that is just lying propaganda to demonize Israel.
If you had a case you would not need to make that up.

The 2 massacres.
The Israelis should have anticipated what happened, and maybe could have stopped it sooner.
They deny participation.
You had to delete stuff from a Wiki page because it showed that there was nothing to support that claim.
Your action shows you have nothing.
You said their were "independent enquiries" and "official enquiries" that support you, but you made it all up.
A week later you have produced nothing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Mrrzy
Date: 19 Oct 11 - 06:29 PM

Man, it's difficult to unhijack a thread!


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 19 Oct 11 - 06:17 PM

And what's with 'my' speculation? Not 'mine' at all, but that of Alibhai-Brown, Straw,and two Pakistani community leaders & spokesmen. Nothing like attributing opinions to people which they haven't expressed & then making a big deal of ir. Carroll a master of that ploy ~~

& the insidious and invidious use of phrases designed to wind up Jews: phrases of baleful, distressing, offensive associations and connotations to them all ~~ "Nazi echoes, holocaust in reverse" ~~ not once but again & again & again; with the obvious intent of offending and distressing Jews who read it: he has been told time & again of the offensive connotations, but goes on unashamedly insulting & distressing them with these locutions.

If that is not the action of a deliberate and intentional antisemite, what is?

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 19 Oct 11 - 06:08 PM

WHY, Don? Genuinely do not follow your logic.

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 19 Oct 11 - 05:20 PM

""why it is in that case 'racist' to criticise a particular group of Pakistani men who, it is not denied, methodically sexually exploited young women on specified occasions in specified locations in the North & Midlands, speculatively as a result of the inhibiting effects of their demographic's mandatory marriage customs,""

Sorry Mike, but that dog will only hunt if you can show that your speculation is true not only for the rest of that ethnic community, but also for other ethnic communities with the same marriage rules, of which there are several.

And nothing that Keith has produced comes close to fulfilling that requirement.

For that reason Jim has a point. Keith has double standards on a number of issues.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 19 Oct 11 - 05:12 PM

"""The article does that" and you thought it so appropriate that you posted that bit in big red letters.""

You crack me up Keith, you really do. You spend four months claiming that what you post is not your opinion but that of others who know what they are talking about, then turn around and deny any who disagree with you the right to do exactly the same.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 19 Oct 11 - 03:44 PM

---Our views often harmonize, and we can keep our tone civil when differences of opinion become discordant.---

said Mrrzy in OP, which I checked back on in considering the question in his last post.

It would have been nice indeed; but fat chance when one persistent poster, as he has done in several threads before, hijacks this one in pursuit of an irrational personal vendetta he has been obsessively pursuing with another of our number. Carroll should be ashamed of himself; but I don't expect for a second that he is.

As to whether the exchange will turn out to be a good thing: depends on whether the Palestinian authorities can contrive to control the "destroying Israel is the priority" element in their midst, among those released and among their populace at large; which they have shown scant ability to do up to now.

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Mrrzy
Date: 19 Oct 11 - 02:36 PM

So, um, am I naive to think the exchange was a good thing, or not?


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 19 Oct 11 - 01:01 PM

& before he comes back yet again with what he sees as their attempted disclaimers about 'warning us not to interpret their comments as racially based', or whatever it was ~~ they were commenting pundits, not God Almighty, and had absolutely no authority or warrant to instruct anyone as to what interpretation he/she was entitled to put on their published statements.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 19 Oct 11 - 12:56 PM

& the 'speculation' I referred to in mine of 1241 coming from leading and respected members of their own community, plus a leading British parliamentarian.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 19 Oct 11 - 12:47 PM

... because, patently, he has nothing whatever else to go on


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 19 Oct 11 - 12:41 PM

···Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 28 Sep 11 - 03:54 AM
Mike,The logic of your suggestion is that we cannot criticise any ethnic group for fear it will be used by racists···
.
,..,.,,.
Nobody, so far as I can see, has asked JC why this argument cannot be used right back at him, to ask why it is in that case 'racist' to criticise a particular group of Pakistani men who, it is not denied, methodically sexually exploited young women on specified occasions in specified locations in the North & Midlands, speculatively as a result of the inhibiting effects of their demographic's mandatory marriage customs, ~~ a point he has reiterated obsessively & irrelevantly on this and other threads to the extent that one begins to question his - er, um ah - mental stability.

Still comfortable in your glass house on de banks of denial, Mr Obvious Antisemite?


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Oct 11 - 11:09 AM

Or if you want an updated American version
http://www.revisionisthistory.org/palestine52.html
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Oct 11 - 11:01 AM

"No chemical weapons at all. No massacres at all. "
Thank you for a perfect and timely echo of holocaust denial in reverse.
http://www.soundofegypt.com/palestinian/adult/massacres.htm
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 19 Oct 11 - 09:18 AM

"In an apparent about-face, US officials criticized Tuesday evening the deal brokered for the freedom of Gilad Shalit, which set hundreds of terrorists, including those who had murdered Americans, free.

The criticism came after it became clear that the released terrorists included those who had murdered Jews with United States citizenship.

Earlier on Tuesday, US President Barak Obama had said he was pleased with the deal that set Shalit free despite his own nation's strict policy of not negotiating with terrorists for the release of its citizens.

Obama also expressed the hope Israel and officials in Ramallah would take the steps necessary to return to the negotiating table.

Previously, US secretary of state Hillary Clinton also praised Israel for negotiating with terrorists to secure Shalit's release.

French President Sarkozy welcomed the release of Gilad Shalit, saying France had breathed a sigh of relief. Visiting the port city of Nice, Sarkozy's opined Shalit's French citizenship helped keep him alive. He added that Gilad will visit France soon.

Britain's foreign secretary William Hague also welcomed the release of Gilad Shalit, and like Obama, added he hoped the terrorists-for-Shalit deal would provide positive momentum allowing the resumption of peace talks.

It is unclear why the Shalit deal would provide any such momentum. Israel's deal to release 1,027 security prisoners, some 450 convicted on terrorism charges, for Shalit was made with the Hamas terror organization in Gaza and not Palestinian Authority officials in Ramallah. Hamas encouraged those who were released to go back to terrorist acts.

Hamas had vowed never to negotiate with Israel."


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Oct 11 - 08:38 AM

No chemical weapons at all.
No massacres at all.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Oct 11 - 08:34 AM

"Saying things are comparable shouldn't the same as saying they are identical. "
Thank you, McGrath, of course it isn't, and it is disingenously agenda-serving and defensive of anybody to claim it is.
"There is no evidence for any of those claims"
Which claims are they? The numerous massacres, persecution and atrocities are a matter of record and have been officially examined, documented and protested against by independent observers - including the United Nations. They are now a matter of history.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 19 Oct 11 - 07:16 AM

Fine ~~ nice to think of you comfortable in your glass house...


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Oct 11 - 06:42 AM

"Shalit was not "part of a force that carried out chemical attacks on civilians,"
Schalit is a soldier in the army of a terrorist state; part of the job description of being such is to risk being taken prisoner, wounded or killed.
My sypathies lie with the victims of ongoing Israeli atrocities and persecution in pursuit of territory - and with heroes like the brave prisoner of concience Mordachai Vananu who thought it wise ot expose the fact that this terrorist state had nuclear capability, for which he served 18 years in prison (11 of them in solitary confinement).
"Crawling little sewer-rat!"
Somehow I take great comfort from this when it comes from a racist who supports racism when it is aimed at Pakistanis, but crawls behind an "anti-Semitism" shield when a Zionist fascist state comes under criticism.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Oct 11 - 06:22 AM

Saying things are comparable shouldn't the same as saying they are identical. In should mean recognising that they are different, but that the differences and similarities deserve attention - comparing them, in fact.

I agree that the industrialised killing machinery built out by the Nazis should not be used as a standard against which other horrors are measured. It risks suggesting that this was less unspeakable than it was, which should never be done. But it also has the danger that weighing these acts in the same scale, it tends to makes other acts of inhumanity seem relatively minor, and that should never be done either.

The Shoah and the Nabka were very different indeed. But both words mean the same, respectively in Hebrew and Arabic - catastrophe.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 19 Oct 11 - 05:49 AM

So I've changed my mind. So sue me


"nobody has attempted to suggest it is anything like the scale of the holocaust" claims Carroll pathetically -

Maybe ~ but Carroll has said, note, that the difference between his 'reverse-holocaust' & the real one is 'only in scope'

From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 27 Sep 11 - 08:35 AM
Mike:
"as because it gravely understates the nazi ones."
As I said, only in scope
Jim Carroll

~~~~
And here's another exchange from a couple of days back ~~

"I merly said that there are echoes of the Nazi treatment of the Jews. Surely the proposed forcible ejection of 30-60 thousand people is indication enough that this is the case?".,,.,..,
The Nazis did not 'eject' the Jews by the thousands; they methodically murdered them by the millions in efficiently run organisations specifically designed for the purpose; in the most humiliating & painful possible manner: thrust naked several hundred at the time into small compartments and then choked to death by the fumes of concentrated weedkiller. Have you ever seen what is, to my mind, probably the saddest picture ever published, even more than the piles of emaciated corpses being bulldozed into pits at Belsen - the mountainous pile of children's shoes outside the gas-chamber at Treblinka?
I leave it to others to judge; but I would call your cited enormity a pretty faint & feeble 'echo' myself.



"Only in scope"; "ejection" set up directly as morally equivalent to the too unpleasant to contemplate efficiently methodical murder of 6,000,000 -- I ask you.

And he still denies being antisemitic. Crawling little sewer-rat!


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Oct 11 - 05:04 AM

"The article does that" and you thought it so appropriate that you posted that bit in big red letters.
(Were you deprived of colouring pencils as a lad Jim?)

Shalit was not "part of a force that carried out chemical attacks on civilians, hospitals and schools, or participated in and facilitated huge massacres of villagers and refugees or evicted Palestinians from their homes,"

There is no evidence for any of those claims.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Oct 11 - 04:52 AM

"thanks for that massive cut and paste from Pravda,"
Sorry Keith - I forgot your dyslexia problem, which you usually manage to get over by not bothering to read what people write.
"But it was also wrong to hold that poor young soldier...."
Who, of course, wasn't part of a force that carried out chemical attacks on civilians, hospitals and schools, or participated in and facilitated huge massacres of villagers and refugees or evicted Palestinians from their homes, which were then razed to the ground in order to build tourist centres and Israeli settlements or humiliated civilians on a daily basis or built a wall across legally occupied property or removed citizenship from any Palestinian who stayed away fom home too long.....
Don't you ever let anybody accuse you of being biased in your choice of who you support!!!!
"Jim, you compare the Israeli treatment of Bedouin to Nazi Germany."
The article does that "and discrimination more befitting of Nazi Germany than a modern State which claims to be a democracy" - I said that the treatment of Palastinians has echoes of Nazi behaviour - nobody has attempted to suggest it is anything like the scale of the holocaust - of course it isn't - but they're doing their best in spite of overwhelming international condemnation.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Oct 11 - 03:39 AM

Lox no!
Don't leave us without you razor sharp insights to guide us.
How could you tease us with such a tantalisingly short visit where you made such a thread changing contribution?

'Bye then.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Lox
Date: 19 Oct 11 - 03:33 AM

So Joe and Q talked about Jordan etc ...

The thread is still about Israel/Palestine (look at the title if you don't believe me.

It is therefore still relevant to talk about the Israeli government.


Saying "Well Joe and Q did it"

is the same red herring reasoning as "well Egypt does it"


All very interesting, but sheds no light on whether Israels policies, much less those on bedouins are appropriate or not.


But what is this unmitigated fantasy ....


You state that to criticize the ISRAELI Government on a thread ABOUT A PLACE CONTROLLED BY THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT, is prejudiced.

And you state that to not talk about a DIFFERENT GOVERNMENT on a thread about A PLACE THEY DO NOT CONTROL is prejudiced.


I dipped in briefly but will go again as I see no reason to continue having a discussion with such a disingenuous, dishonest and deliiberate distorter of so many aspects of the truth.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Oct 11 - 02:51 AM

Jim, thanks for that massive cut and paste from Pravda, that well known supplier of fair and balanced honest truth!
You are becoming desperate in your search for anti-Israel propaganda.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Oct 11 - 01:14 AM

Lox, this issue was raised in the 7th post of this thread, by which time Jordan had been brought in to the discussion by Joe Offer and Egypt by Q.

Even without that, to launch a tirade of hate against some alleged shortcoming of Israel without mentioning that the country next door is actually much worse, seems somewhat driven by prejudice.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Lox
Date: 18 Oct 11 - 07:01 PM

"the subject was raised in an attack on Israel and only Israel"

The subject was raised in a conversation about Israel/Palestine.

It makes sense in a conversation about Israel/Palestine that those involved would discuss stuff happening in ... er ... Israel/Palestine.


The point is made during the conversation (about Israel/Palestine) that there is a political issue between the Israeli Government and Bedouins.


Seems relevant.


You stick up for the Israeli Government by saying "well egypt treats them badly too - maybe worse".

OK

well done.


But this is a conversation (if you remember) about Israel/Palestine and the bedouins there.

So unless you wish to suggest that the egyptian government is responsible for issues surrounding Bedouin in Israel/Palestine then they have no relevance.


Start a thread about egypt.

Call it "Egypt mistreats Bedouin"

See how long it lasts.

Yes they do ... anyone disagree? ,... no? ... didn't think so.


Right then ... hey theres an interesting discussion about Israel/Palestine over here where people have opposing views - hence it hasn't just died ...


Have you managed to engage your brain yet?

I suspect not.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Oct 11 - 05:01 PM

Even Jim Carroll thought it wrong to release those mass murderers of ordinary people and children.
But it was also wrong to hold that poor young soldier, who saw his comrades murdered, for any more long years in such cruel conditions and isolation.
Such evil.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 18 Oct 11 - 04:30 PM

Profiles of some of the Palestinian prisoners that were released: Al Jazeera


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Mrrzy
Date: 18 Oct 11 - 04:09 PM

OK, MtheGM, that I think makes two of us.

Anyway, I was offline for about a week, and when I saw this thread still live I thought Wow, I opened a successful thread... (emoticon)

So in an effort to go back to the original question, I am happy the Israelis let a bunch of Palesteins out, isn't that a good thing or am I being naive? Again?


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Oct 11 - 03:42 PM

Jim, you compare the Israeli treatment of Bedouin to Nazi Germany.
In Nazi Germany, the population of the persecuted minorities went into catastrophic decline.
Israeli Bedouin have the fastest growing population in the world.
An extremely distasteful comparison, offensive to any survivor of those minority groups.

"Ismail Khaldi is the first Bedouin deputy consul of the State of Israel and the highest ranking Muslim in the Israeli foreign service.[85] Khaldi is a strong advocate of Israel. While acknowledging that the state of Israeli Bedouin minority is not ideal, he said

I am a proud Israeli - along with many other non-Jewish Israelis such as Druze, Bahai, Bedouin, Christians and Muslims, who live in one of the most culturally diversified societies and the only true democracy in the Middle East. Like America, Israeli society is far from perfect, but let us deals honestly. By any yardstick you choose -- educational opportunity, economic development, women and gay's rights, freedom of speech and assembly, legislative representation -- Israel's minorities fare far better than any other country in the Middle East"

I also read that, every year, between 5 and 10% of all Bedouin males reaching the required age VOLUNTEER for the army of Israel.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Oct 11 - 03:35 PM

Don and Lox, the subject was raised in an attack on Israel and only Israel, Oh wise ones.
I just wondered why the worse sufferring of Bedouin in Egypt was never mentioned until I brought it up.

Israeli Bedouin have the fastest growing population of any group in the whole world.
Things can not be that terrible in Israel then.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Oct 11 - 01:01 PM

Crimes against Bedouins in Israel
07.09.2011
Crimes against Bedouins in Israel. The plight of the Negev Bedouin inside Israel rarely makes the pages of the corporate press, yet the oppression these people suffer at the hands of the Israeli authorities includes racism, intolerance and discrimination more befitting of Nazi Germany than a modern State which claims to be a democracy.
As Moshe Dayan said in 1963 "This phenomenon of the Bedouins will disappear."
Israel's treatment of the Negev Bedouin, Israeli citizens but Arabs, is sickening: 70,000 people live in 45 villages. Their communities do not appear on maps, therefore they do not exist and as such, they have no right to municipal services. No running water, no electricity supply from the national grid, no sewer network, no schooling. Not being recognised as formal communities, they do not have building rights and therefore any shelters which do exist, are bulldozed.
"Supreme Court judge (emeritus) Eliezer Goldberg listened to many voices and together with a small committee put together "the Goldberg Report" in 2008. This report, while using positive rhetoric, such as "the villages must be recognized, as much as possible," also recommended that Bedouins should not receive land beyond route #40, re-establishing the norm that Bedouins, while being citizens, are not really a fully legitimate part of our country... The Bedouin community, which had fully cooperated with the Goldberg committee, was disappointed.
Prime Minister Ehud Ulmert assigned Ehud (Udi) Praver to create a plan implementing the Goldberg Report recommendations. Praver's plan was released a couple of months ago. This plan did not implement the Goldberg Report recommendations, but rather created a completely new plan. In the creation process of this new plan, NO BEDOUINS were consulted. NONE.
Creating a plan for a community, without even thinking of considering their voice, is a strong statement - indicating that Israel still perceives the Bedouin as less than citizens, less than... Beyond this strong statement, it also means that the chance of implementing the plan is really low. The Praver plan includes massive violent enforcement, concentration, no clear statement as to the recognition of villages, use of "divide and rule" tactics, intended to split the community, and no option for the community for negotiations. The end result was to be - reduction of actual use of land by the Bedouin community from 300,000 dunams to no more than 200,000.
Naturally, the leadership in the Bedouin community felt betrayed yet again, and together with organizations such as ACRI and Bimkom expressed their disapproval of this plan. But, evidently, that was not important to Prime Minister Binyamin (Bibi) Netanyahu: his concern was of the criticism from the Right.
It is with sadness, disappointment and a feeling of intense distaste that I write the next steps decided upon by Netanyahu:
Netanyahu gave Yaakov Amidror, the director of the National Security Council (NSC), the mission to "correct" Praver's plan. Yet again, the Bedouin are treated not as citizens, but as a security issue. In addition, Foreign Minister Liberman assigned MK David Rotem, head of the legislature committee in the Knesset, to study the plan, and make sure it is in accordance with their party's line. MK Rotem is demanding that the maximum amount of land allowed to remain in the hands of the Bedouin be no more than 100,000 dunams, and that another 300 police be assigned to enforce the concentration of the Bedouin.
There are 100,000 Bedouin living today in the villages, an agricultural people and young population with a yearly growth of about 5%. The entire land they utilize is 300,000 dunams - used for their homes, their livestock, and their agriculture.
Rotem is demanding that it be reduced to 100,000 dunams. In contrast 50 newly established single family ranches (Jewish) in the Negev have received about 1,000 dunams each from the State. The words of MK Rotem "...concentrate them, there they will till their land", are extremely ironic pending this planned concentration...
MK David Rotem's opinions on Arabs are well known. For example, he presented a law stipulating that Israeli citizenship be conditioned on service in the Israeli army. Now the Bedouin - who have no say in the plans for their future within their own country - have to accept the plans created for them by a person of MK Rotem's persuasions...
I don't believe it is possible, even with the use of massive force: police brutality, bulldozers, arrests, fines, demolitions, and village erasures - to evict the Bedouin from their lands and concentrate them. However, it seems we are about to step into a very dark era in Israeli history, and we are going to see the Bedouin community suffer tremendously before the government will change its ways. Eventually, at some time in history, Israel will realize that its treatment of its Bedouin population must be one of inclusion and dignity. But I am fearful of what will happen until then.
Recognition Now calls out to the Government of Israel to take measures concerning the integration of the Arab-Bedouin community of the Negev into the region based on the principles of partnership, equality, human rights, and a future of prosperity for all the Negev residents."
Lisa Karpova
Pravda.Ru
http://english.pravda.ru/hotspots/crimes/07-09-2011/118978-Crimes_against_Bedouins_in_Israel-0/
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 18 Oct 11 - 12:26 PM

""Wise man use brain ... sometimes say something clever.""

Doubtful in this case.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Lox
Date: 18 Oct 11 - 11:54 AM

"Why is Israel alone criticised? "

No one is sticking up for egypt - hence - no discussion.

Someone is sticking up for Israel - hence a discussion.





Wise man use brain ... sometimes say something clever.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Oct 11 - 11:52 AM

Israel BUILDING Bedouin homes!
13 new towns and villages.
But only Israel gets demonized.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Oct 11 - 11:47 AM

See the happy Bedouins in Israel here
http://www.hrw.org/news/2010/08/18/israel-stop-demolishing-bedouin-homes
Jim Carrol


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Oct 11 - 11:19 AM

See the happy Bedouin of Egypt here.
http://www.bugbog.com/gallery/galleryegypt/egypt-pictures-red-sea.html


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