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BS: Palestine

MGM·Lion 23 Sep 11 - 07:06 AM
Richard Bridge 23 Sep 11 - 06:45 AM
MGM·Lion 23 Sep 11 - 05:19 AM
MGM·Lion 23 Sep 11 - 05:14 AM
Keith A of Hertford 23 Sep 11 - 04:54 AM
Jim Carroll 23 Sep 11 - 04:36 AM
MGM·Lion 23 Sep 11 - 01:41 AM
mg 22 Sep 11 - 09:42 PM
Justa Picker 22 Sep 11 - 08:17 PM
Richard Bridge 22 Sep 11 - 07:57 PM
McGrath of Harlow 22 Sep 11 - 07:26 PM
Stringsinger 22 Sep 11 - 07:21 PM
McGrath of Harlow 22 Sep 11 - 07:03 PM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Sep 11 - 05:38 PM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Sep 11 - 05:32 PM
Jim Carroll 22 Sep 11 - 04:52 PM
bobad 22 Sep 11 - 04:29 PM
Jim Carroll 22 Sep 11 - 04:18 PM
GUEST,beardedbruce 22 Sep 11 - 03:50 PM
Teribus 22 Sep 11 - 03:18 PM
MGM·Lion 22 Sep 11 - 02:11 PM
MGM·Lion 22 Sep 11 - 02:02 PM
GUEST 22 Sep 11 - 01:15 PM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Sep 11 - 12:50 PM
GUEST,number 6 22 Sep 11 - 11:55 AM
Jim Carroll 22 Sep 11 - 11:45 AM
Bobert 22 Sep 11 - 10:57 AM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Sep 11 - 08:10 AM
Richard Bridge 22 Sep 11 - 08:08 AM
bobad 22 Sep 11 - 07:53 AM
Jim Carroll 22 Sep 11 - 07:37 AM
GUEST,livelylass 22 Sep 11 - 06:07 AM
McGrath of Harlow 22 Sep 11 - 06:03 AM
GUEST,livelylass 22 Sep 11 - 06:00 AM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Sep 11 - 05:16 AM
Jim Carroll 22 Sep 11 - 04:47 AM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Sep 11 - 04:47 AM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Sep 11 - 04:41 AM
GUEST,livelylass 22 Sep 11 - 03:17 AM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Sep 11 - 02:55 AM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Sep 11 - 02:53 AM
Jim Carroll 22 Sep 11 - 02:52 AM
GUEST,number 6 22 Sep 11 - 02:13 AM
GUEST,mg 22 Sep 11 - 01:57 AM
Teribus 22 Sep 11 - 12:44 AM
Mrrzy 21 Sep 11 - 06:22 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 21 Sep 11 - 06:21 PM
Richard Bridge 21 Sep 11 - 05:06 PM
Bill D 21 Sep 11 - 04:58 PM
GUEST 21 Sep 11 - 04:56 PM
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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Sep 11 - 07:06 AM

The claim is based, Richard, on that UN resolution of 1947. The state of Israel was recognised on the day of its proclamation by both the US & the Soviet Union: either of whom along with the UK, could have vetoed the resolution in the Security Council; US & the Soviets both voted in favour, however, & the UK, on the plea that as mandatees they might have been perceived as an interested party, chose to abstain.

It was in accordance with that resolution that the state was proclaimed & recognised. The authority of the League of Nations, as you say above, might have been suspect; but I don't see how you can dispute the legal right of the UN to pass the resolution that brought Israel, now for many years a member of the UN, into legal being: a right and legality disputed by no nation other than those belonging to the Arab/Islamist confederacy ~~~

~~~ Which seems to me to be the response to your ~ I suspect perverse, tendentious and intentionally provocative ~ enquiry which seems to me based on exceptionally dubious and probably racist grounds,as to the legal legitimacy of the existence of the state of Israel at the eastern end of the Med.

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 23 Sep 11 - 06:45 AM

White Phosphorus is not a chemical? C'mon.


And now:

"Britain was entrusted with a League of Nations mandate over Palestine in 1922. This provided an interim resolution to the power vacuum in post World War I Palestine caused by the 1917 defeat of the Turks by British forces and the subsequent collapse of the Ottoman Empire. The British task was to facilitate the partitioning of Palestine to establish a Jewish national home that did not prejudice the civil and religious rights of the Arab majority. Jewish and Arab communities were granted the right to run their internal affairs, but this was not without tensions and outbreaks of violence, which did occur during the 1920s and 1930s.

In April 1947, after failing to reconcile the conflicting demands of both the Jewish and Arab communities, Britain indicated an intention to withdraw from Palestine and requested that a permanent solution be discussed by the United Nations General Assembly. Subsequently, a United Nations Special Committee was established to draft proposals for the future of Palestine.

Under the chairmanship of the Dr HV Evatt, the Australian Minister for External Affairs, the UN Special Committee recommended the establishment of an independent Jewish State in Palestine, together with a neighbouring independent Arab State, and this was endorsed by the United Nations General Assembly in November 1947.

The State of Israel was subsequently proclaimed in Tel Aviv on 14 May 1948."


So, broadly, there was no Jewish state prior to 1948.


From 1922 (ish) to 1948 Britain ruled the relevant area under a "League of Nations mandate".   Now I may be wrong but I think no legitimate authority from that area empowered the League of Nations to award that mandate - because there was no authority from which to derive legitimacy.

Prior to that, from 1299 to 1917, the entire area was part of the Ottoman Empire. After 1917 there was no authority until 1922.

"The Ottoman Empire[dn 4] or Sublime Ottoman State (Ottoman Turkish: دَوْلَتِ عَلِيّهٔ عُثمَانِیّه Devlet-i ʿAliyye-yi ʿOsmâniyye,[7] (also عثمانلى دولتى Osmanlı Devleti),[dn 5] Modern Turkish: Yüce Osmanlı Devleti or Osmanlı İmparatorluğu) was a Turkish empire that lasted from 27 July 1299[8] to 29 October 1923.

At the height of its power, in the 16th and 17th centuries, it controlled territory in southeastern Europe, southwestern Asia, and North Africa (see List of Ottoman Empire dominated territories).[9] The Ottoman Empire contained 29 provinces and numerous vassal states, some of which were later absorbed into the empire, while others were granted various types of autonomy during the course of centuries.[dn 6]

With Constantinople (present-day Istanbul, Ottoman Turkish: استنبول, Istanbul[10] and قسطنطينيه, Kostantiniyye) as its capital city,[11][12] and vast control of lands around the eastern Mediterranean during the reign of Suleiman the Magnificent (ruled 1520 to 1566), the empire was at the center of interactions between the Eastern and Western worlds for six centuries."




So since 1299 if not earlier there had been no Jewish state in the area.



We are surprised that those who lived there objected to the establishment of one without their consent?



Bear in mind that many here celebrate the ejection in 1922 of the UK from most of Ireland, ruled by England for centuries, and that the complete ejection seems likely in the not so distant future, which will no doubt also be celebrated by many here.



I do not yet see the legitimacy of Israel's claim to any east Mediterranean land, much less Gaza or the parts formerly part of Jordan. Nor its razing of infrastructure in Gaza or the Lebanon.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Sep 11 - 05:19 AM

Sorry ~I meant 'the first sentence of your second paragraph'


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Sep 11 - 05:14 AM

But which 'people' do you refer to in your first sentence above, Jim? Not the people immediately around, who fell on the new state as soon as it was proclaimed on the ending of the British mandate in an attempt to strangle it at birth, who outnumbered the population of that fledgling state by I forget what factor, but nevertheless received a black eye for their trouble ~~ and another in merely six days a few years later.

I know all about two wrongs not making a right & all that; but it was that initial hostility, and the concomitant intransigence which has persisted to this day (see my last post above) which has led to the present Israeli attitude which we all (see my penultimate post 02.11 pm) so much regret.

What the answer is I don't know ~~ I am reminded of the traditional yokel who, asked the way somewhere, replied, "Well, you can't start from here" ~ but mere denunciation of Israel for having adopted the present regrettable attitude entirely in response to the hostility of its neighbours, or the inability to fulfil any of the promises made by the one or two whose interests have caused them to become, ostensibly at least, less hostile over the years (see Teribus's excellent post of 3.18 pm), is really going to get nobody anywhere. Denunciation as merely 'an abuser', 'a terrorist state ruled by zealots', 'the worst of all worlds', much as one might be emotionally inclined to accept such animadversions, is surely going to be merely counterproductive.

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Sep 11 - 04:54 AM

"Which identifies the fact that the US regarded white phosphorus as a "chemical weapon""

No Jim.
It identifies that a long time ago one twat once wrongly used the word "chemical" when referring to "incendiary" weapons.

And now another twat keeps making the same mistake here.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Sep 11 - 04:36 AM

"Jim, you have one old report about Sadaam's use of WP, "
Which identifies the fact that the US regarded white phosphorus as a "chemical weapon" and only 'de-chemicalised' it when they decided to use it in places like Falujah - not unlike re-identifying 'torture' as 'extreme rendtion' really!
As much as people wanted Israel to work following the sufferings of the Jewish people at the hands of Nazism, it has become the worst of all worlds - a terrorist state ruled by zealots driven by a two thousand year old fairy story, with a nueclear capability
It has shifted from being the victim to becoming the abuser and it is of no surprise that the only support it has at present in its opposition to a Palestinian state is that of another human rights abuser.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Sep 11 - 01:41 AM

"That above comes as close to hate speech as anything I have ever seen or heard." ···

Honest, now, mg. Why goodness me, what a sheltered life you must have led. Here's a recent, actually quite mild [it doesn't contain the usual promise to 'drive Israel into the sea' which usually accompanies such: google if you don't believe me] example ~

~Hamas released a statement following the far left president's naive speech.
The terror group will not recognize Israel under any circumstance.
YNet News reported:
Obama's Mideast policy speech Thursday was a "total failure," Hamas said Thursday evening.
"The (Arab) nation does not need a lesson on democracy from Obama," said Hamas spokesman in the Gaza Strip, Sami Abu-Zuhri. "Rather, Obama is the one who needs the lesson given his absolute endorsement of Israel's crimes and his refusal to condemn Israel's occupation."

"We will not recognize the Israeli occupation under any circumstances," the Hamas spokesman said


If that isn't hate-speech to out-hate the instance you take such exception to above, then I guess it will do OK for hate-speech till some hate-speech comes along, eh?

~Michael~


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: mg
Date: 22 Sep 11 - 09:42 PM

That above comes as close to hate speech as anything I have ever seen or heard. I personally know two former orange growers who had their lands taken from them..both are elderly now (one is alive..I am not sure of the other) and well-known in university circles. Oranges were grown in Palestine quite famously prior to lands being confiscated. And they are called Palestinians. That is what they call themselves; that is what I call them. The term was certainly in use in my lifetime. I really don't think anyone had to make it up. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Justa Picker
Date: 22 Sep 11 - 08:17 PM

I guess this bears repostng.
It was valid a few years and remains so.
It's (comedian) Dennis Miller's "Brief History of the Middle East"

=============================================

The Palestinians want their own country.

There's just one thing about that: There are no Palestinians.

It's a made up word. Israel was called Palestine for two thousand years. Like "Wiccan," "Palestinian" sounds ancient but is really a modern Invention. Before the Israelis won the land in war, Gaza was owned by Egypt, and there were no "Palestinians" then, and the West Bank Was owned by Jordan, and there were no "Palestinians" then. As soon as the Jews took over and started growing oranges as big as basketballs, what do you know, say hello to the Palestinians," weeping for Their deep bond with their lost "land" and "nation."

So for the sake of honesty, let's not use the word "Palestinian" any more to describe these delightful folks, who dance for joy at our Deaths until someone points out they're being taped. Instead, let's call them what they are: "Other Arabs Who Can't Accomplish Anything In Life And Would Rather Wrap Themselves In The Seductive Melodrama Of Eternal Struggle And Death."

I know that's a bit unwieldy to expect to see on CNN. How about this, then: "Adjacent Jew-Haters." Okay, so the Adjacent Jew-Haters want their own country. Oops, just one more thing. No, they don't.

They could 've had their own country any time in the last thirty years, Especially two years ago at Camp David. But if you have your own country, you have to have traffic lights and garbage trucks and Chambers of Commerce, and, worse, you actually have to Figure out some way to make a living. That's no fun. No, they want what all the other Jew-Haters in the region Want: Israel.

They also want a big pile of dead Jews, of course -- that's where The real fun is -- but mostly they want Israel.

Why? For one thing, trying to destroy Israel - or "The Zionist Entity" as their textbooks call it -- for the last fifty years has allowed the rulers of Arab countries to divert the attention of their own people away from the fact that they're the blue-ribbon most illiterate, poorest, and tribally backward on G-d's Earth, and if you've ever been around G-d's Earth, you know that's really saying something.

It makes me roll my eyes every time one of our pundits waxes poetic about. The great history and culture of the Muslim Mideast. Unless I'm missing something, the Arabs haven't given anything to the world since Algebra, and, By the way, thanks a hell of a lot for that one.

Chew this around and spit it out: Five hundred million Arabs; five Million Jews.
Think of all the Arab countries as a football field, and Israel as a Pack of matches sitting in the middle of it. And now these same folks swear that if Israel gives them half of that pack of matches, Everyone will be pals.

Really? Wow, what neat news. Hey, but what about the string of wars to obliterate the tiny country and the constant din of rabid blood oaths to drive every Jew into the sea? Oh, that? We were just kidding.

My friend Kevin Rooney made a gorgeous point the other day: Just reverse the Numbers. Imagine five hundred million Jews and five million Arabs. I was stunned at the simple brilliance of it.

Can anyone picture the Jews strapping belts of razor blades and dynamite to themselves? Of course not. Or marshaling every fiber and force at their disposal for generations to drive a tiny Arab State into the sea? Nonsense. Or dancing for joy at the murder of innocents? Impossible. Or spreading and believing horrible lies about the Arabs baking their bread with the blood of children? Disgusting. No, as you know, left to themselves in a world of peace, the Worst Jews would ever do to people is debate them to death.

Mr. Bush, God bless him, is walking a tightrope. I understand that with vital operations in Iraq and others, it's in our interest, as Americans, to try to stabilize our Arab allies as much as possible, and, after all, that can't be much harder than stabilizing a Roomful of supermodels who've just had their drugs taken away.

However, in any big-picture strategy, there's always a danger of Losing moral weight.

We've already lost some. After September 11 our president told us and the world he was going to root out all terrorists and the Countries that supported them. Beautiful. Then the Israelis, after months and months of having the equivalent of an Oklahoma City every week (and then every day) start to do the same thing we Did, and we tell them to show restraint.

If America were being attacked with an Oklahoma City every day, we would all very shortly be screaming for the administration to just be done with it and kill everything south of the Mediterranean and East of the Jordan.
==============================================


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 22 Sep 11 - 07:57 PM

I'm still not really following the Zionist argument here. By what right does Israel occupy any land sort of at the East end of the med, in the absence of any valid or agreed disposition of land there?


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Sep 11 - 07:26 PM

BDS


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Stringsinger
Date: 22 Sep 11 - 07:21 PM

Three little letters, BDS.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Sep 11 - 07:03 PM

I see that a few of us are, going round and round in circles saying the same things that have been said repeatedly by the same people, and which aren't immediately relevant to the topic of the thread...

Recognising Plestine as a state would do nothing to threaten Israel's interests. It wouldn't make Israel's continued occupation and planting of settlements any less illegal, or make it any harder for it to continue in defying existing UN resolutions. The territory of the West Bank and Gaza is not claimed to be part of Israel by the Israeli government, or by any other government.

If anything, recognition of Palestine as a state with full membership status would probably be in Israel's interests. It won't happen at this time, but that's just because of a need in Israel and in Washington to play to the gallery.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Sep 11 - 05:38 PM

Jim,
"In spite of all your barnstorming demands for sympathy "for the victims" on your "let's prove that all male Pakistanis are "culturally implanted" with a paedophile tendency" thread - you have nowhere expressed either sympathy for the Bedouin victims of Israeli terrorism or condemnation of that terrorism - no surprise there either."

I did express compassion for the child rape victims, and was ridiculed for it by you.
I never, ever, linked any race or culture with paedophilia, and told you repeatedly that there was no link. (so that is a lie.)
I referred to "these poor Bedouin" and pointed out that the "Palestinians" treated them at least as badly as the Israelis.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Sep 11 - 05:32 PM

Jim, you have one old report about Sadaam's use of WP, where the one author erroneously referred to it as a "chemical weapon."
He was wrong.
Against the one, old, erroneous statement by some unknown, desk bound bureaucrat, you have the FACT that the military of all nations, including yours, including all the liberal democracies, including all those nations who have eschewed chemical weapons, all stockpile, train and when needed use it, in the certain knowledge that it is not a chemical weapon.
OK Jim?


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Sep 11 - 04:52 PM

"Comparing Israel's actions to that of Nazis is despicable anti-semitism. "
No it is not - hiding behind - "you can't condemn Israel because it is Jewish" is despicable and ignores the atrocities comitted in the pursuit of a Jewish homeland - or so I am told by my Jewish friends..... but then again - they may be anti semitic!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 22 Sep 11 - 04:29 PM

Comparing Israel's actions to that of Nazis is despicable anti-semitism.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Sep 11 - 04:18 PM

Can't be botehred finding the original posting, which came with horrific photos of the effect of white phophorus on children's faces and dealt with the use of such CHEMICALS on the civilians of Falujah by US troops, only to have it ignored - again - by you.
THis will have to suffice for the time being.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-intelligence-classified-white-phosphorus-as-chemical-weapon-516523.html
The US recognised that White phosphorus was a chemical weapon and used it on the civilians of Falujah
Attempting to claim the WEAPONS the Israelis used on hospitals and schools in Gaza are not "chemical" is - once again - defending war crimes - nothing less - no surprise there!
In spite of all your barnstorming demands for sympathy "for the victims" on your "let's prove that all male Pakistanis are "culturally implanted" with a paedophile tendency" thread - you have nowhere expressed either sympathy for the Bedouin victims of Israeli terrorism or condemnation of that terrorism - no surprise there either.
Nor have you chosen to comment on the outrageous removal of citizenship from those who overstay their trips abroad.   
"Lidice was not 'decimated', Jim"
One in ten of the population were taken out and shot - the village was then razed to the ground - that was my reference to "decimation".
"But Lidice was, in every sense, something else"
Only in the matter of degree - and the SS did have the excuse (in some people's eyes - not mine) that there was a war on at the time. The behaviour of Israel is no more than a war against civilians in retaliation for the opposition of others.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 22 Sep 11 - 03:50 PM

The LAST borders accepted by the Arabs was the partition of the original Mandate Palestine in 1923, with 77% becoming the Arab ( no Jews allowed) country of Transjordan ( Now Jordan). The Brits decided that they could NOT meet the mandate requirements of a single nation with both a Jewish and Arab population, so they gave the Arabs an area proportional to the TOTAL Arab population, and forbid Jews to settle or live there. SO, the remaining 23% was supposed to be the Jewish Homeland as specified by the treaty that ended WW 1 and created Lebanon, Syria, the borders of Turkey, etc.


IF the Arabs had accepted the UN partition, they would have ended up with a large portion of the Jewish Homeland- but they did not.

As for the 640,000 Arabs ( NOT the entire Arab population of the Jewish Homeland area, they chose to leave- and if they are to be compensated with land, I think it might be fair to compensate the estimated 820,000 JEWS driven out of Arab nations. So HOW MUCH ADDITIONAL LAND is Jordan going to give back to Israel, along with the entire West bank???

Israel settled those Jews that wished to live there ( 500,000 +, some went to the US, since they did not trust the Arabs) and the reasonable expectation was that, like with the parallel situation of population transfers in Pakistan and India, the Arab nations would settle those who left Israel.

They did not, creating generation of suffering for those Palestinian Arab refugees and their families.

The suffering of the Palestinian Arab refugees is a product of the actions of the Arab League, and those Arab nations that made no effort to settle them, but kept them in concentration camps and promised them the land of Israel.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Teribus
Date: 22 Sep 11 - 03:18 PM

Yep Richard that's right, the deal (proposed by the UN in 1947) that Jews accepted gave the Arabs of Palestine a great deal more than they are asking for now - BUT they turned it down and rejected it out of hand as they along with their Arab neighbours were going to kill all the Jews or drive all the Jews into the sea. Having done that they were then going to parcel out and hopefully profit from everything that Jewish settlers had spent about one hundred years creating.

In 1948 the Arabs of Palestine chose war and lost - Israel got a little bit bigger and so did the Arabs "allies" - Egypt annexed Gaza (originally part of Palestine) - Jordan grabbed the West Bank and half of Jerusalem (originally both parts of Palestine).

Did Egypt and Jordan give the land to the Arabs of Palestine? Did they hell as like they shut the Palestinian Arabs up in refugee camps on their own land and kept them there in poverty.

Ceasefires and armistace agreements have never meant anything to the Arabs of the region - THEY have never honoured any agreement they have made:

- 1948 UN Agreement broken
- 1956 UN Agreement broken
- 1967 UN Agreement broken
- 1973 UN Agreement broken
- 1982 UN Agreement broken
- 2006 UN Agreement broken

They are viewed as a means of providing a breathing space and returning to the start line until they are ready for the next try.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 22 Sep 11 - 02:11 PM

BTW ~~ Lidice was not 'decimated', Jim ~ it was wiped completely off the face of the earth DELIBERATELY AND WITH PURPOSE. The Israelis have done nothing remotely comparable with this. Which is not to say that I am not embarrassed and horrified by what the state of Israel is in danger of turning into; even my sister & her son [who was born there], who maintain their Jewish & Zionist identity which I don't, are having serious reservations. But Lidice was, in every sense, something else. Please don't trivialise your argument which such hyperbolical analogies; it does your case no good.

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 22 Sep 11 - 02:02 PM

~~~There is little to distinguish between the behaviour of Israel towards Gazan non-combatants and that of the SS to say, the response to the assassination of Hiedrich by decimating Lidice.~~~

I think we have been more-or-less here before, Jim. A sense of proportion, please. And a Hegelian sense of the quantative becoming qualitative in assessing quite how 'little' there might be to distinguish...

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Sep 11 - 01:15 PM

Israel was given to the Jewish people by England as some compensation for the Holocaust, and unfortunately, the country has been surrounded by people trying to destroy the state of Israel ever since. The Palestine people may have the same dilemna as the Native Americans of the USA- but there is little call for the people of the continental US to return their country to the Lenape. The Jewish High Holy days in Israel, and even in the US, are too often observed with terror, as that is the time that those who want to wipe Israel from the face of the earth decide to bomb, maim and kill Jewish people.

I am saddened to see so many people on the left align with Palestine, and other mideast countries, while forgetting the tragic fate from thousands of years of oppression that the people of the Old Testament have endured, and continue to endure.



Scratch the surface, and more often than not (like those who disguise their racial prejudice by raising specious questions about Obama's birth certificate) the cause is anti-Semitism, plain and simple. A long old prejudice.

The miracle of the Jewish people is that they still survive. And love and laugh and contribute to society in ways that are far more magnificent than their numbers.

Tikkon Olam.

And Happy New Year to those of the faith.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Sep 11 - 12:50 PM

Jim, if that is true it shows that you were too gullible in believing everything said by CIA.
Every military in the world uses smoke, including that of your chosen country of residence.
It is not a weapon, never mind a chemical weapon.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 22 Sep 11 - 11:55 AM

For those that continue to squabble of who is right and who is wrong I should point out (and Bobert did mention many Israelis agree) there are movements within Israel (connecting with the Palestinians) for a peaceful resolution, all we can do is hope such movements shine through the self interested political quagmire of various world governments .... the link below is one such movement for those who are interested

justvision

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Sep 11 - 11:45 AM

"Smoke screening is not a chemical bombardment. "
The CIA says otherwise - their statement was put up on this forum some time ago - try reading what others put up for a change.
Still an apologist for human rights abuses - as ever
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Bobert
Date: 22 Sep 11 - 10:57 AM

The best argument for having a Nation of Palestine is that it would make Israel safer... Until then Israel will be seen as the aggressor by the Arab nations and, in being seen that way, is less safe...

This is really a no-brainer... I find it interesting that a very large number of Israelis agree... But, like the the US, the right wing has controlled the conversation in Israel so don't expect any change until the Israelis figure out how to wrestle their government back from the hard liners...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Sep 11 - 08:10 AM

Smoke screening is not a chemical bombardment.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 22 Sep 11 - 08:08 AM

A little puzzled by that map, Teribus, unless I am imagining it is shows the Jewish state as quite a lot smaller than Israel today. Or do I misread you?


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 22 Sep 11 - 07:53 AM

A great many people think they are thinking when they are merely rearranging their prejudices. -- William James


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Sep 11 - 07:37 AM

"Your big Irish Times paste referred to none of those things."
No it didn't - it didn't have to - it is merely a report of the Israelis behaving like the "Master Race" they apparently believe themselves to be.
"No newspaper I have ever seen mentioned Israelis doing that."
You've attempted to argue this before - the Israelis were firing on hospitals, schools and residential area with heavy artillery in Gaza, they were using chemical weapons on built-up areas. Your argument has been that the chemical weapons they were using weren't "chemical" (no longer sustainable as the American agencies now refer to them as such)
There is little to distinguish between the behaviour of Israel towards Gazan non-combatants and that of the SS to say, the response to the assassination of Hiedrich by decimating Lidice.
Massacres of Palastinian villagers were part of the birth-pains of the state of Israel, and those massacres have become a part of its existence.
Obama's "Zioinst" (as described in the Times) speech at the UN and his declared intention to veto the 'Palastinian state' vote seems to have gone down like a led balloon there - lucky for them that they are a super-power and can bully their way through life.
Your defence of extremist behaviour by governments and their agents goes before you - I told you no more of your ultra-right Alice-in-Wonderlad rabbit-holes. I really can't be arsed with trying t cope with your not reading other people's posts and then denying that they haven't said anything.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: GUEST,livelylass
Date: 22 Sep 11 - 06:07 AM

PS - I'll have to look for something more current to confirm or otherwise what Rice has had to say more recently - as I may be in error there.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Sep 11 - 06:03 AM

The strange aspect of all this is the fact that Israel, and its agent in this context, the USA, are opposed to this.

Endorsing the existence of a Palestinian state within the boundaries of the West Bank together with Gaza, also implies endorsing the continuing existence of Israel within the very much larger part of what was Palestine. It means drawing a line under the aspirations of those, on both sides, who would prefer to see a unified state. It is in fact wholly in keeping with the interests of the regimes involved.

The only logic for Israel's opposition to this move would seem to be that of "if they want it we won't let them have it". Pre-school thinking.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: GUEST,livelylass
Date: 22 Sep 11 - 06:00 AM

Keith, I haven't found the video, but Rice in her capacity as the US ambassador to the UN made her statement 'threatening' the withdrawal of aid to the UN back in June - later her comments were 'clarified' as informal chit chat - but here's an article from The Telegraph:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/palestinianauthority/8597559/US-could-withdraw-funding-from-UN-if-Palestine-state-is-recognised.html

I'm unsure if she's repeated the threats about UN aid, but I believe Rice has made similar threats regards aid to the Palestinians much more recently in a continuing bid to pressure the PA and Arab League to withdraw the bid.

Of course such measures would only be realised if Palestinians and the UN do not accord with the US's wishes and drop the matter of Palestinian statehood, so it would be rather premature I suppose to expect to see any moves severancing the aid, being taken by the US as yet.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Sep 11 - 05:16 AM

"But cetainly an argument for continuing Israeli annexation, ethnic cleansing and brutality "
No.
Your big Irish Times paste referred to none of those things.

Chemical bombardment?
No newspaper I have ever seen mentioned Israelis doing that.
That would be an interesting cut and paste Jim.
Do you have one?


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Sep 11 - 04:47 AM

"Who is doing that? "
The Israelis have been doing that for a while - along with chemical weapon bombardments - don't the newspapees reach Hertford
"Not much of an argument for a Palestinian state"
But cetainly an argument for continuing Israeli annexation, ethnic cleansing and brutality
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Sep 11 - 04:47 AM

The State Department, however, expressed strong reluctance to threaten the financial aid - totaling 550.4 million dollars in 2011, with 513.4 million requested for 2012 - to the Palestinians as a response to their U.N. initiative. Nuland said on Aug. 22 that, "We have not chosen to use our humanitarian aid in such a fashion. As you know, it is designed to help the Palestinian people and support their humanitarian needs."
http://ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=105107


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Sep 11 - 04:41 AM

Livelylass, has aid yet been withdrawn from the Palestinions?
I thought something like $53Bn was allocated this year.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: GUEST,livelylass
Date: 22 Sep 11 - 03:17 AM

"Let's hope that we have to veto a UN decision. "

The US and Israel are working overtime lobbying and pressurising those nations that they have any kind of power over or influence with, trying to ensure that this won't be the case.

As well as removing all aid to Palestine, back in February (I believe it was) Susan Rice even made a public statement making a strongly implied threat to withdraw all US monies to the United Nations itself, if the measure is passed - unfortunately I can't find the video where she makes those threats offhand but will try to seek it out.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Sep 11 - 02:55 AM

"Take out the "Suicide bombers" out and insert well-armed troops and you have the situation in a nutshell."

Er, you would then have "At least they're not sending well-armed troops to kill them"

Who is doing that?


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Sep 11 - 02:53 AM

Jim, your long cut and paste tells us that these poor Beduoin expect equally bad treatment from the "Palestinians" as the Israelis.
Not much of an argument for a Palestinian state.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Sep 11 - 02:52 AM

"At least they're not sending suicide bombers to kill them."
Oh - that makes this behaviour ok then, does it?
Take out the "Suicide bombers" out and insert well-armed troops and you have the situation in a nutshell.
"They will continue to nibble on the west bank,"
Yes they certainly will.
Not long ago Israel passed a law restricting the absence from the country of any Arab to three years - failing to return within that period means the loss of citizenship of the 'culprit' - creeping ethnic cleansing.
Israeli policy is to gheotto-ise the Arab people militarily, using any opposition to that ghettoisation as an excuse for the use of extreme and brutal force.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 22 Sep 11 - 02:13 AM

I recognize Palestinians, Israeli's and in fact every human living on this earth as people.

"magine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace...

You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will be as one"

and that's all I have to say in this (already) thread worn thread.

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 22 Sep 11 - 01:57 AM

I recognize Palestine as a state, virtual or otherwise. I recognize Palestinians as a people. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Teribus
Date: 22 Sep 11 - 12:44 AM

"They will continue to nibble on the west bank, completely occupy Jerusalem, and encroach on former Egyptian territory in Gaza."

Take a good look at the following map:

http://www.passia.org/palestine_facts/MAPS/Palestine_under_British_Mandate_1923_48.htm

You will see quite clearly that Gaza, the city of Jerusalem and the whole of the west bank all lay within and were part of the section of the mandated territory set aside for the establishment of the national homeland for the Jews.

The white lines on the map show the "green line" that came about with the cease-fire brokered by the UN in 1949. It shows the Palestinian territory invaded occupied and annexed by both Egypt and Jordan.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Mrrzy
Date: 21 Sep 11 - 06:22 PM

Let's hope that we have to veto a UN decision. That should put us squarely in the wrong.

What does israel have up its butt anyway? Why not, after all this time?


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 21 Sep 11 - 06:21 PM

Palestine's future lies with Egypt and Jordan, not Israel and its theocratic government.
The Israelis have cut the west bank area in two.
Bethlehem and Hebron are still under the Palestinian Authority, but may soon be lost as well.
Map here:

http://commons.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Palestine_Map_2007.gif


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 21 Sep 11 - 05:06 PM

USA seems to be on a sticky wicket this time - and not before time in this area.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Bill D
Date: 21 Sep 11 - 04:58 PM

It should not be "up to" Israel...but obviously, Israel is concerned about the nature of any such state and that state's attitude towards Israel. As I understand it, Israel has all along insisted that any Palestinian state must agree to totally recognize Israel.

Both sides continue to demand conditions that the other will not accept....and that most of each one's supporters will not agree to.

It's a stand-off...and made worse by the fact that any Israeli leader OR Palestinian leader who did offer the wrong concessions would fear for his own safety from his own side!

Sadly, it is almost hopeless... and would not be helped by the UN bestowing membership on a group that IS NOT a recognized state.


Perhaps all these new governments in Egypt, Libya...etc. will help break the impasse...someday.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Sep 11 - 04:56 PM

"BEDOUIN PEOPLE ISRAEL WANTS TO RELOCATE TO FORMER DUMP"

At least they're not sending suicide bombers to kill them.


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