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BS: Palestine

Mrrzy 27 Oct 11 - 12:32 PM
Lox 27 Oct 11 - 12:10 PM
MGM·Lion 27 Oct 11 - 05:56 AM
MGM·Lion 27 Oct 11 - 05:44 AM
MGM·Lion 27 Oct 11 - 12:12 AM
Lox 26 Oct 11 - 05:43 PM
MGM·Lion 26 Oct 11 - 05:31 AM
Lox 26 Oct 11 - 05:22 AM
MGM·Lion 26 Oct 11 - 05:18 AM
MGM·Lion 26 Oct 11 - 04:41 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Oct 11 - 02:59 PM
GUEST,livelylass 25 Oct 11 - 02:36 PM
Lox 25 Oct 11 - 01:18 PM
Mrrzy 25 Oct 11 - 01:05 PM
MGM·Lion 25 Oct 11 - 08:56 AM
MGM·Lion 25 Oct 11 - 08:52 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Oct 11 - 08:23 AM
MGM·Lion 25 Oct 11 - 06:49 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Oct 11 - 06:24 AM
MGM·Lion 25 Oct 11 - 04:50 AM
GUEST 25 Oct 11 - 04:21 AM
MGM·Lion 25 Oct 11 - 03:25 AM
GUEST,Mrr at work 24 Oct 11 - 04:23 PM
Stringsinger 24 Oct 11 - 11:33 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 24 Oct 11 - 11:22 AM
Mrrzy 23 Oct 11 - 08:19 PM
GUEST,Jon 23 Oct 11 - 08:09 PM
MGM·Lion 23 Oct 11 - 03:08 PM
Jim Carroll 23 Oct 11 - 02:58 PM
MGM·Lion 23 Oct 11 - 01:04 PM
Jim Carroll 23 Oct 11 - 11:15 AM
Jim Carroll 23 Oct 11 - 10:50 AM
MGM·Lion 23 Oct 11 - 10:33 AM
Jim Carroll 23 Oct 11 - 10:00 AM
MGM·Lion 23 Oct 11 - 08:26 AM
Jim Carroll 23 Oct 11 - 07:50 AM
MGM·Lion 23 Oct 11 - 07:06 AM
Jim Carroll 23 Oct 11 - 06:49 AM
Jim Carroll 23 Oct 11 - 06:38 AM
MGM·Lion 23 Oct 11 - 05:17 AM
Jim Carroll 23 Oct 11 - 04:52 AM
MGM·Lion 23 Oct 11 - 04:46 AM
Jim Carroll 23 Oct 11 - 04:20 AM
MGM·Lion 23 Oct 11 - 01:05 AM
Stringsinger 22 Oct 11 - 09:02 PM
McGrath of Harlow 22 Oct 11 - 04:50 PM
MGM·Lion 22 Oct 11 - 02:52 PM
Jim Carroll 22 Oct 11 - 12:44 PM
bobad 22 Oct 11 - 11:42 AM
Stringsinger 22 Oct 11 - 10:39 AM
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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Mrrzy
Date: 27 Oct 11 - 12:32 PM

Hee hee hee, at least the posters are getting a sense of humor!


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Lox
Date: 27 Oct 11 - 12:10 PM

nope


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 27 Oct 11 - 05:56 AM

And I said then and I say again now, this should not have been tolerated. Why was nothing said to him for addressing a fellow Mudcatter in such abusive and purposely insulting terms {to say nothing of the implied insult to any Catters who do happen to be unfortunate enough to be colostomy-dependent - I expect some are}? I said then, and I say again now, I am sure this must this have been a clear breach of the rules & he should have been at least cautioned, if not kicked off the Cat altogether.

Where were the mods? Why was nothing done? I should still like to know.

Anybody listening?

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 27 Oct 11 - 05:44 AM

For any who haven't followed all this: on 27 Jan 11, in middle of a thread and with no provocation, Lox posted this as tailpiece to a post on the Muslim Prejuidice thread ~~


MtheGM as usual dribbles into his bib with glee after regurgitating the same dull quip as usual, I just hope that with this level of over excitement his colostomy bag is properly attached.

I requested elucidation, but nothing was forthcoming but more such, e.g. on 30 Jan -

MtheGM on the other hand seems to have begun contributing to this thread for one purpose only and it clearly has nothing to do with any of the subjects being discussed. What a pathetic excuse for a man. I bet he smells funny too

Still no explanation ~~ & as to any hint of an apology... Hohoho!

And now, because I remind him of this, he has the all-fire gall to accuse me of abuse.

I mean, I ask you,, what is he like? Potty-mouthed liile ratfink.

~Michael~


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 27 Oct 11 - 12:12 AM

ColostoLox:

Who started this "abuse" then, you foul little fink?

Reminder: You suddenly, remember, in the middle of a perfectly ordinary correspondence, turned on me and accused me of wearing "an ill-fitting colostomy bag". A fine example of the "coherent thought" which you have the pompous effrontery to enjoin on others. Why should I be expected to forget or condone such an outburst, you immoderate idiot? The subject I am at present 'engaging with' is the extent to which any comment by such a fine example of "abusiveness" should be taken.


✌✌✌✌✌✌✌✌✌✌


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Lox
Date: 26 Oct 11 - 05:43 PM

How Reassuring,

I see you have returned to your normal pre 2011 abusive self - it didn't take long.

Your brief flirtation with manners has obviously gone off the rails.

One thing remains consistent however, your inability to answer intelligently ...

... by which I don't mean stringing together lots of long flowery words in a flourish of onanistic self congratulation, but rather actually engaging with the subject.

Oops - silly me - for a second there I credited you with the capacity to comprehend coherent thought.

How funny!


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 26 Oct 11 - 05:31 AM

Lox as ever


"did not ... deserve[d] the compliment of rational opposition."

Mind still obsessed with colostomies & such is it, Lox, you foul farting fool?


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Lox
Date: 26 Oct 11 - 05:22 AM

Not sure how posting actual Nazi propaganda helps to further your agenda, but I hope at least that it makes you feel better.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 26 Oct 11 - 05:18 AM

Oh ~~ & just one more: try this for size, you heap of stinking swine:~~~~~~~~~~

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BSoLN77fBn8&feature=related


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 26 Oct 11 - 04:41 AM

One more quote from my favourite novelist


"Elinor agreed with it all, for she did not think he deserved the compliment of rational opposition."
― Jane Austen, Sense and Sensibility Vol II, ch xiv


and now I have done.

Adieu, thread.

~Michael~


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Oct 11 - 02:59 PM

"Should it be up to the Israeallahs or not?"
No it should not, any more than it should be up to the US driven by political and economic self interest.
If there is to be any sort of peace in the Middle East it has to be arrived at to the satisfaction of all and on equal terms - an unsatisfactory treaty in Ireland is still chalking up the dead 90 years after the event.
"You are a doctrinaire booby, Carroll,"
Progress up from a "Jew-baiting anti-Semite" I suppose.
"I hereby vow & swear not to waste another single pressure on a typing-finger attempting to dispute your fatuities."
Looks like we're finished here Livelylass - fingers crossed
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: GUEST,livelylass
Date: 25 Oct 11 - 02:36 PM

Mrzzy I've attempted to redirect discussion of the actual topic here, I've no idea if it'll help in the face of this incessant onslaught though:

thread.cfm?threadid=141076&messages=6


Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Mrrzy
Date: 25 Oct 11 - 01:05 PM

Well, for those of us actually interested in the thread, what are we thinking about statehood for the Palesteins? Should it be up to the Israeallahs or not?

But as far as your question goes, considering the US are the alien power intervening so consistently in this Middle-East matter, I think the real question is "should it be up to the US or not?" Particularly as Chomsky puts it, as the Obama administration's actions this year in respect of Palestine are not only in opposition to the US's own publicly declared position but also in opposition to "overwhelming international consensus".


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Lox
Date: 25 Oct 11 - 01:18 PM

The highest respect that can be shown to the dead of Auschwitz is not to pussyfoot around the subject of their deaths, but to do what not enough people did for them which is to recognize poisonous racist and imperialist ideologies, policies and political processes and call them out.

The fundament of Nazism was singling out vulnerable groups and scapegoating them, and the notion that one group of people is superior and has a greater right to territory, resources and human rights that another.

So where this occurs, the point must be made, out of respect for the dead of auschwitz, that that kind of ideology is responsible for the deaths of millions and is contrary to all standards.

So when Keith singles out Pakistani males as being unique for ALL possessing a tendency to sexually abuse children, he must be told NO!

He must be told this out of respect for the dead of Auschwitz.

If he and others are not told this and not reminded of what crimes those kind of racist views have led to in country after country, from Spain to cambodia, then we are ignoring the cries of the dead and then we are truly showing them a lack of respect.

They did not die so that we would censor ourselves, but so we would speak out!


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Mrrzy
Date: 25 Oct 11 - 01:05 PM

Well, for those of us actually interested in the thread, what are we thinking about statehood for the Palesteins? Should it be up to the Israeallahs or not?


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 25 Oct 11 - 08:56 AM

& DonT, you other silly little swine, that is your cue to jump in and say I am a horrible person to bully your poor precious ickle Jimmy!


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 25 Oct 11 - 08:52 AM

Well, the "denigration of a whole culture" (which I did not 'support' Keith over, simply pointed out that he hadn't said what you claimed & even if he had he was perfectly entitled to express an opinion without being insulted by agenda-driven obsessive lefties like you raking up irrelevancies from other threads because that's the sort of obscurantist drivel they imbibed with their mother's milk) is NOT the same thing as what the Nazis did to the Jews ~~ or can you point to any pseudo-scientific research into Pakistani brain-patterns carried out by qualified scientists in laboratory conditions to demonstrate that they have all got to GO because Mein Führer doesn't like them? Followed by their corpses being piled in mountains because there was nowhere to put them.

You are a doctrinaire booby, Carroll, & I hereby vow & swear not to waste another single pressure on a typing-finger attempting to dispute your fatuities.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Oct 11 - 08:23 AM

You now appear to be deliberately misinterpreting what I have said.
I pointed out that Keith, with your support, had claimed that a whole culture was infected with a cultural implant that made them potential paedophiles.
I put forward as a comaprison the denigration of the Jews with scientific and academic research - which you - exraordinarily denied happened
"---At the risk of incuring your wrath further - isn't this exactly what happened to the Jews under the Nazis? ---
NO"
It was comparison in the denigration of a whole culture - by Keityh.
I do not believe you to be stupid so I can only believe your "misiterprertation" to be deliberate in order t prove my "anti-Semitism and offset your own racism
Jim Carroll.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 25 Oct 11 - 06:49 AM

"On the basis of "scientific and academic evidence" proving that Jews were culturally and genetically degenerate they justified sending six million of them to the gas chambers."

"From Wiki under Nazism
"Nazism advocated the supremacy of an Aryan master race over all other races.1   - Nazis viewed the progress of humanity as depending on the Aryans and believed that it could maintain its dominance only if it retained its purity and instinct for self-preservation.|12j They claimed that Jews were the greatest threat to the Aryan race.'13* They considered Jews a parasitic race that attached itself to various ideologies and movements to secure its self-preservation, such as: capitalism, democracy, the Enlightenment, industrialisation, liberalism, Marxism, parliamentary politics, and trade unionism.'1''* To maintain the purity and strength of the Aryan race, the Nazis sought to exterminate or impose exclusionary segregation upon "degenerate" and "asocial" groups that included: Jews, homosexuals, Romani, blacks, the physically and mentally disabled, Jehovah's Witnesses and political opponents.|15J"

"can be applied to Muslims as a whole, including the Palastinians"


~~~ and who, in your view, would be thus applying it, within the context of this thread, but the Israelis?

If I have confused separate discourses here, then of course I apologise & withdraw that particular accusation. It has all, IMO, got a bit confused ~~ largely due, as I feel bound to say, to your [& no-one elses's that I can see] having insisted on muddying the flow of the thread by dragging Keith/Pakistanis-in-Bradford into the argument where they don't really fit. This is a peculiar King Charles' Head obsession of yours, Jim, which is making the whole argument peculiarly difficult to follow.

I am BTW somewhat exercised, as to how your belittling by inappropriate language & comparisons of the fate & sufferings of 6,000,000 victims of the Nazis, sits with your accusation that, in some way, my education has deprived me of "compassion" ~~ an odd bit of chippy reverse-snobbery, that strikes me as!

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Oct 11 - 06:24 AM

"Feel bound to add that your post about Nazi aims supported by pseudo-scientific research being exactly comparable to Israeli ones"
Where have I EVER suggested such research - my point was denigrating whole cultures - by Keith?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 25 Oct 11 - 04:50 AM

-- to explain what is open State terrorism backed up by superpower bullying.--

Once again, Jim, please take the point that I do not disagree with you as to this point. I am trying to explain nothing - certainly nothing which, as in this instance, I deprecate as much as you do. I pointed this out to you before, with special ref to its beginning for me with those destroyed olive groves those years ago ~~ & YOU HAD THE GRACE THEN TO APOLOGISE FOR HAVING MISREPRESENTED MY POSITION, which you are now, here, back to doing..


Friends have suggested that the greatest contribution to anti-Semitism since WW2 has been the behaviour of the Israeli Governments and their supporters

Agreed. I repeat: I am no longer one of their supporters.

- the crouching behind the dead of Auschwitz that has gone on here has illustrated that fact perfectly.

I am not so crouching: simply averring a strong feeling that you are not paying their memory sufficient respect with some of your invidious comparisons and locutions ~~ hence my accusations of antisemitism, which I have already said above is probably as overstated as some of your assertions [tho, as to 'playing the race card', would point out that one can only play the cards one has been dealt!].

Try answering a few points Mike.

Well there you are: I think everything I have written above {none of them for the first time} is an answer to your points. If insufficient, then please specify which of your points I haven't answered & ~~ so long as not provocatively framed in terms which invite Eric'n'Ernie-dom ~~ I will do my best endeavours to address them.

Feel bound to add that your post about Nazi aims supported by pseudo-scientific research being exactly comparable to Israeli ones, which you rejected by asserting that you bloody-well hadn't meant that, & accused me of insulting your intelligence by thinking you had, still strikes me, as expressed, as susceptible to no other interpretation. Perhaps you would address that point with some more convincing arguments than a mere "bloody well", which really didn't cover the case at all.

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Oct 11 - 04:21 AM

"But you might want to apologise to Jim."
Thanks Don, but I would have settled for a few straight answers instead of the dishonest evasiveness to explain what is open State terrorism backed up by superpower bullying.
"now the urbane mask is off."
Somewhat reminiscent of 'Lord of the Flies'
"Were you aware that you always bluster and tell people not to make fools of themselves whenever you find yourself in a corner"
"No, I don't. You are perfectly welcome to make a fool of yourself if you choose. So carry on. You are doing a great job."
Classic - if you'll be Morcambe I'll be Wise (or vise versa - take your pick.)
Friends have suggested that the greatest contribution to anti-Semitism since WW2 has been the behaviour of the Israeli Governments and their supporters - the crouching behind the dead of Auschwitz that has gone on here has illustrated that fact perfectly.
Try answering a few points Mike.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 25 Oct 11 - 03:25 AM

Away from this thread for a couple of days. Now find myself greatly exercised as to what DonT is getting so aerated about. I mean, what put-in of his if I speak my mind to J Carroll on a point between Jim and me, that Don should get his knickers in such a twist? Why any of his big bizniz?

And isn't he being a bit patronising to Jim? Does he really believe poor little J need D's mighty assistance because incapable of fighting his own corner? Ah diddums. (Not but what the confused, indeed near-gibberish, self-contradictions of JC's last 2 or 3 posts might perhaps lend some credence to such a view; but I somehow doubt if that is the point Don meant to make!).

His sobriquet does seem well chosen, mind:

What you see ~~

         ~an aggressive ill-mannered, irrational, officious prodnose ~

~~is indeed what you get, eh Catters?

WYSIWYG! LoL!

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: GUEST,Mrr at work
Date: 24 Oct 11 - 04:23 PM

I wonder sometimes, Stringsinger!

So, my question repeats: Is the arab spring thing good for the Palesteins, or not?


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Stringsinger
Date: 24 Oct 11 - 11:33 AM

Norman Finkelstein and Noam Chomsky have it right. This isn't a personal issue that some on Mudcat have wanted to make it. It's not about silly squabbling.

The Zionist Movement has been corrupted as has the financial and political system in the U.S.

The Palestinians are reacting because their backs are up against the wall.

Violence and terrorism are not right. They're not moral.

The "Authoritarian" model of governance is doomed to failure.

Blame doesn't solve anything. A deeper understanding about tribalism and the role of ideology is needed to solve this issue.

I would like to see more intelligent discussion of this issue and less reactionary name-calling.

Otherwise what's the point of this thread?


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 24 Oct 11 - 11:22 AM

""It is my policy to make no further response than this to posts which are purely abusive, as I take yours to be.""

Suits me fine, as I have finished what I have to say to you, but in the light of that response from you, and your feelings that what I said was abusive, you might be well advised to examine your recent, purely abusive posts to Jim, and consider how you justify this sudden dislike of what you have been so diligently dishing out.

Don't bother to reply, I'm not interested. But you might want to apologise to Jim.

Not very likely though, now the urbane mask is off.

Bye now
Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Mrrzy
Date: 23 Oct 11 - 08:19 PM

Um, so, is Libya falling, or rising, good or bad for the Palestiens' desire for statehood? Will these new springing Arab gov'ts have automatic seats at the UN?


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 23 Oct 11 - 08:09 PM

Weird. Maybe I should join in on my sort of understanding of Keith's "all (male Pakistani Muslims)" actually referring to "ALL"

but on the past history, that seems to bring around reports of complaints and eventual thread closure...

I've let this go a few days now without responding...


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Oct 11 - 03:08 PM

No, I don't. You are perfectly welcome to make a fool of yourself if you choose. So carry on. You are doing a great job.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Oct 11 - 02:58 PM

"Are you suggesting some such research regarding the Palestinian Arabs has been carried on in Israeli universities? "
No - of course I'm bloody not, and well you know it (are you really suggesting that your reaction would have been as bland as this if I had made such an obscene suggestion)
I am making the point that presenting 'the enemy' (in this case Muslims) as degenerates, parasites, a threat to our way of life, our children.... whatever give the option of dealing with them in any way you wish.
The Nazis depicted the Jews (after "scientific research by doctors such as Mengele) as racially inferior parasites who threatened the German way of life - giving themselves the right to slaughter 6m of them.
Keith presents all male Pakistani Muslims in Britain as potential perverts who have to guard against their "cultural implants" to stop themselves from having sex with underage girls - that is the enormity of the statement he made (him, nobody else); that is the depth of his racism - and your nodding it though as not racist.
Please don't insult what little intelligence I might have.
"I genuinely think you are losing it."
And I genuinely think that you are living proof that a good education might pass on knowledge but it does little for common sense (or compassion, for that matter).
Were you aware that you always bluster and tell people not to make fools of themselves whenever you find yourself in a corner
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Oct 11 - 01:04 PM

"Did not the Nazis attempt to prove with "scientific" and "academic" research that the Jews were inferior thus making it unmportant what happened to them?"
,..,.,,.,.,.
Yes.

And? ~~

Are you suggesting some such research regarding the Palestinian Arabs has been carried on in Israeli universities?

If so, please quote me some sources and thesis titles; & name some of the academics involved and their universities or academic institutions.

If not, then what the blazes are you wittering on about this time, you contemptible antisemitic little organism?

Honestly, Carroll ~~ your statements are getting more bizarre and uncontrolled and incoherent by the second. I genuinely think you are losing it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Oct 11 - 11:15 AM

NO?????
From Wiki under Nazism
Jim Carroll

"Nazism advocated the supremacy of an Aryan master race over all other races.1   - Nazis viewed the progress of humanity as depending on the Aryans and believed that it could maintain its dominance only if it retained its purity and instinct for self-preservation.|12j They claimed that Jews were the greatest threat to the Aryan race.'13* They considered Jews a parasitic race that attached itself to various ideologies and movements to secure its self-preservation, such as: capitalism, democracy, the Enlightenment, industrialisation, liberalism, Marxism, parliamentary politics, and trade unionism.'1''* To maintain the purity and strength of the Aryan race, the Nazis sought to exterminate or impose exclusionary segregation upon "degenerate" and "asocial" groups that included: Jews, homosexuals, Romani, blacks, the physically and mentally disabled, Jehovah's Witnesses and political opponents.|15J"


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Oct 11 - 10:50 AM

"WHERE?"
It is you who has resorted to "anti-Semite" and "Jew baiter" to my suggestion that there are echoes (no more than that) of Nazi behaviour in what has happened in Israel - do you want a list of the massacres, the wall, the persecution, the evictions, the humiliation....... again?
"NO"
Did not the Nazis attempt to prove with "scientific" and "academic" research that the Jews were inferior thus making it unmportant what happened to them?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Oct 11 - 10:33 AM

---At the risk of incuring your wrath further - isn't this exactly what happened to the Jews under the Nazis? ---

NO

---It is also you who has chosen to play the race card in this discussion on Palestine---

WHERE?


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Oct 11 - 10:00 AM

"cited ~ NOT originated " "shooting the messenger".
And I repeat, there is no messenger nobody anywhere has attempted to implicate the whole Pakistani male population in cultural degeneracy apart from Keith; he has not produced one single example of anybody doing so; in fact, the several 'examples' he did put up state the opposite; that there are no cultural/racial conclusions to be drawn from the opinions offered
As has been pointed out by others, the implications of what he (and he alone - with your blessing) has claimed go far beyond the Pakistani population and can be applied to Muslims as a whole, including the Palastinians.
At the risk of incuring your wrath further - isn't this exactly what happened to the Jews under the Nazis?
On the basis of "scientific and academic evidence" proving that Jews were culturally and genetically degenerate they justified sending six million of them to the gas chambers.
Keith hasn't 'gone all the way' by any means, but it is a step on the road as far as I am concerned - his "my opinion" is profoundly racist and it is this you have given your blessing to by claiming it otherwise.
It is also you who has chosen to play the race card in this discussion on Palestine - shame on you.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Oct 11 - 08:26 AM

That's better. & so, yes, it appears I was after all right about which point you meant?

I have neither endorsed nor contradicted the statement you complain of, simply said that your efforts to prevent it being cited ~ NOT originated ~ by Keith were misplaced: were, indeed, I say again, merely an unworthy act of "shooting the messenger". If, as you say, you really couldn't even see a messenger, then perhaps you should have gone to Specsavers.

I have no doubt that you have opinions on various matters, but I don't see why I should be required to have such on all the same topics. It is my opinion that Mansfield Park is the greatest of English novels; but not only do I not require you to agree, I don't even insist on your having an opinion on the matter if you don't feel like it.

I do agree that the Pakistani thread is producing far more heat than light on this one, and would be best left alone. It was not me who introduced it here. Wonder who it might have been...

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Oct 11 - 07:50 AM

Simple Mike - you have endorsed an extremely racist statement by claiming it was not racist - you were asked for your blessing and you freely gave it - that is about as coherent as I can get - sorry.
Also sorry that you appear to have been reduced to slipping out through the back door with accusations onf incoherence.
It only has relevence here as it appears to be part of Keith's anti-Muslim crusade, so lets get this over with eh?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Oct 11 - 07:06 AM

I think you have lost me, Jim, Sorry, but you are becoming completely incoherent. You start off by saying that the point I quote isn't the one you refer to my not having engaged with; and then show that in fact it is, by proceeding to address it by accusing me of saying all sorts of things that I have just pointed out I didn't say without adducing any further evidence that I did.

If that wasn't the point I chose IYO not to address, then please be specific which was. If it was the one after all, why did you kick off by saying it wasn't?

Where, precisely, are you coming from? And what am I alleged to have said or done to justify your continued, entirely unjustified, accusations of racism? I have at least given you my reasons for my continued regard of you as antisemitic: those expressions which you have consistently declined to moderate. All you are doing in return is bluster.

I appreciate this is a topic on which your feelings run strong. But either clarify your position, please, or just shut up. Your nonsensical ravings are beginning to get on my nerves more than somewhat. I am happy to respond to any point that you make coherently; but you will have to make it in comprehensible form first.

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Oct 11 - 06:49 AM

And if you have "no particular opinion" on such a blatent racist attack - why not?
If somebody told me that all Jews indulge in blood sacrifice I'd have an opinion and I'd be ready to express that opinion.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Oct 11 - 06:38 AM

"Is this one of those other points you take me to have ignored?:"
No it isn't - I don't find racist stereotyping acceptable just because "somebody else said it (he has singularly failed to produce one single 'expert' as having said "all male Pakistanis" have a cultural implant which makes them potential perverts" - it is his own blatently racist attack on a whole ethnic community.
It is pathetic in the extreme to say "I only said it because he/she said it", but such a claim, whoever said it, without the necessary verification, is blatatly crude racial stereotyping, as you have admitted by pointing out (rightly) that a similar statment made against Jews would be offensively racist.
That is what you have given your support to and that is what makes you both a hypocrite, and a selective racist.
There is no messenger to shoot as there is no message, or are you really suggesting that "All male Pakistanis" are potential perverts because of their culture?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Oct 11 - 05:17 AM

Thank you.

Is this one of those other points you take me to have ignored?:

···In fact it is you who has given your unqualified support to racist statements against Muslims, (openly stated on this forum) ··

If so, I really don't think the accusation lies. I didn't "support" Keith's supposedly racist statements ~ on the contents of which, as I have said before, I have no particular opinion ~ so much as say that I thought you misrepresented them as HIS opinions, when he was merely citing those of others whom he regarded as better-informed than himself; and that you were thus treating him unfairly: and were also attempting by misrepresentation to deny him the freedom of this forum. I repeat what I said before: I thought you indulging in "messenger-shooting".

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Oct 11 - 04:52 AM

Then I apologise - I became somewhat fixed on your "what Isreal might become" statment - sorry.
Regarding the other points I made - I quite understand why you don't wish to address them.
Oh - and keep the name-calling coming; it's comforting in its own little way!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Oct 11 - 04:46 AM

---You have chosen to suppport what Israel does by a mixture of ignoring and refusing to discuss its actions and by writing it off as "what Israel might become".---
,..,
No I haven't Jim. You are either deliberately lying or deliberately misrepresenting me by ignoring my previous posts on the subject {I suppose you will claim you "missed" them like that one of Bobad's which was a repetition of a previous one ~ how careless of you!}.

I repeat: I hate what Israel HAS become ~ I have no recourse to "in danger of becoming" or any such evasions. Even my still Jewish & Zionist relations (I am no longer either of these things ideologically) are the ones who are concerned about developments which, I repeat, I think have already occurred and which I have several times stated here I hate & deplore. Israel is one of the great disappointments of my life [you, as I have remarked previously also, are another]. I repeat:

my position is that I did not march & demonstrate & collect house-t-house in my teenage years to establish the sort of regime in which the army is sent in to destroy the olive-groves on which innocent people depend for their living in revenge for the activities of some of their co-religionists for which they are in no way responsible

~~ that was the event, years back now, that convinced me that the Israeli dream was dead beyond hope of salvation. & that, as I repeat, remains my position ~~

~~ which in no way alters my unshakeable view that your persistence in the use of terminology which you know to be provocative & unacceptable attracts the censure of antisemitism; that your continued refusal to moderate or modify or such accusations makes the antisemitism label all the more applicable to you; and that you enjoy wallowing in the supposed victim-status that such accusations, you appear to believe, confer on you.

Despicable, Jim.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Oct 11 - 04:20 AM

"Indeed, the increased characterization or libeling of Israel as a "Nazi state"
That is a odd opinion don't you think?
Israel is Jewish, so anything it does, no matter how inhuman, how horrific, how much of a war crime.... cannot be considered fascist - because ... Israel is Jewish, and to criticise those actions as fascist would be anti-Semitic..
I, and as far as I can see, everybody on this thread who has criticised the undeniable atrocities committed by Israel, have based those criticisms on what Israel has done, not what she is
You have chosen to suppport what Israel does by a mixture of ignoring and refusing to discuss its actions and by writing it off as "what Israel might become". At least Keith has the gall to claim that what happened didn't happen.
In fact it is you who has given your unqualified support to racist statements against Muslims, (openly stated on this forum), has claimed that while it is offensive to indulge in racist stereotypes concerning Jews, it is permissable to use similar stereotypes against Muslims.
No, I am not an anti-Semite, I never have been a racist in any shape or form and I will die having spent my adult life attacking all forms of racism, and I am proud of that fact.
I wonder if you are proud of your own openly displayed racist hypocrisy.
As you have failed to put up one single tangible argument of my being "anti-Semite", I assume that you are skulking behind your invective to cover your own racism.
And by the way - can you point to where anybody here has libelled Israel as a Nazi state.
I have claimed that there are comparisons ("echoes" is the word I used) to be drawn between the behaviour of the Nazis towards the Jews, and that of the Israelis towards the Palestinians, but I have never described Israel as a Nazi state, nor has anybody else here. If you are going to lie and distort our arguments, please make the effort to do so less crudely obviously.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Oct 11 - 01:05 AM

Let's settle the hash of all this "Arabs are a semitic people too" nonsense, shall we? ~~

'Online Dictionary
an·ti-Sem·ite (nt-smt, nt-)
n.
One who discriminates against or who is hostile toward or prejudiced against Jews.
anti-Se·mitic (-s-mtk) adj.'


Any dictionary will give same definition. Everybody knows that words' meanings develop and alter over time, and that common usage can give them connotations different from, and even at complete variance to, their original derivations. It is disingenuous to base arguments on over-literal definitions based on long-ago meanings that no longer apply. Anyone who argues that antisemitism includes Arabs, or any other demographics other than Jews, is merely trying to muddy the issue without adding a whit to the actual applicative arguments.

And they know it too.

~Michael~


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Stringsinger
Date: 22 Oct 11 - 09:02 PM

The epithet "anti-semitic" begs the question of whether the Jews the world over approve of Israel's behavior and there are plenty who don't, rabbis included.
Also, Arabs are semitic.

The U.S. is not an honest broker when it comes to negotiating peace. Noam Chomsky suggests Brazil or another impartial country.

The inescapable point is that Jim Carroll is right in that Israel commits atrocities.
Hamas does also. Both need to be held accountable.

The lie is that paranoid Israel will be driven into the sea, a bogeyman for AIPAC propaganda.

No one is going to let that happen but Netanyahu will continue to do damage unless his actions are checked by the rational people who still live in Israel and can dump him.

If Iran is bombed, you can expect WWIII.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Oct 11 - 04:50 PM

But to describe Germany as "a Nazi state", when it was, wouldn't have implied "an obligation to remove" the Germany state, but rather a hope to see it change into something better, into something worthy of the wonderful German traditions and culture which it had betrayed in so many ways.

Saying that doesn't mean I'd describe Israel as a Nazi state - but I would see it as something pretty close in some ways to "an apartheid state" which would evidently still be classified as an anti-semitic comment by some people (viz bodad's last post).


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 22 Oct 11 - 02:52 PM

You missed this bit tho, didn't you, Jim:~

"Indeed, the increased characterization or libeling of Israel as a "Nazi state" is tantamount to transforming ideological anti-Semitism into a duty -- the obligation to remove this Nazi state, Israel."
,..,
Now tell us you haven't said this [go on, hide behind your pathetic 'echoes']. You're quite liar enough; and obstinate enough to stick to your denial. Your evasive last few answers to me demonstrate, to any who have eyes to see, that you are enjoying being denounced as an antisemite [an accusation I have demonstrated you could easily encompass the withdrawal of by simply agreeing to moderate & modify your fatuous 'Nazi'&'Holocaust' parrotings], because you are enjoying the warm glow of victimhood it enables you to wallow in, the 'getting sick of ...', the status of poor little me that nobody understands; that sense that Kingsley Amis summarised so brilliantly in his essay "Why Lucky Jim Turned Right", of joining the lefty chorus of a million lone voices crying in the wilderness...

Another 'other' is the one who described you a bit back ~ can't remember who, but that is not the important point, as "Jim the Red at his stirrings again' ~ or WTTE.

Wallow on in your glass house, then, self-confessed embracer of the 'antisemite' label. Enjoy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Oct 11 - 12:44 PM

"......the "Zionism is Racism" indictment."
Have not suggested anywhere to my knowledge that Zionism is racism, but as it manifests itself in Israeli policy towards its opponents, I believe it has become fascist in nature - or tell me where I have.
I am happy to accept the dictionary definition of Zionism as "A plan or movement of the Jewish People to return from the Diospora to Palestine" but when this is done via massacres, persecution, evictions and general aggression - brute force and hotility towards the people occupying the desired territory, it becomes fascism.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 22 Oct 11 - 11:42 AM

"Others ?"

Here's an "other" and what he has to say on the subject - Irwin Cotler

Short bio:

Cotler has served on the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and its sub-Committee on Human Rights and International Development, as well as on the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights. In 2000, he was appointed special advisor to the Minister of Foreign Affairs on the International Criminal Court.

He is considered an expert on international law and human rights law. As an international human rights lawyer, Cotler served as counsel to former prisoners of conscience Nelson Mandela in South Africa, Jacobo Timmerman in Latin America, Muchtar Pakpahan in Asia, as well as other well known political prisoners and dissidents. Cotler represented Natan Sharansky, who was imprisoned in the Soviet gulag for Jewish activism. After his release, Sharansky went on to become Israeli Deputy Prime Minister.

Saad Eddin Ibrahim, an Egyptian democracy activist imprisoned by the Egyptian government, was represented by Cotler and acquitted in 2003. He acted as counsel to Maher Arar during part of Arar's imprisonment and supported demands for a public inquiry. He has also defended both Palestinians and Israelis against their own governments, and participated in a minor role in the Camp David peace agreement between Israel and Egypt.

In 1986 he was chief counsel to the Canadian Jewish Congress at the Deschênes Commission of Inquiry on War Criminals.

Cotler is on the Board of Advancing Human Rights (NGO).



Some excerpts from his writings on the new anti-semitism:

"Ideological anti-Semitism finds expression not only in the "Zionism is Racism" indictment... but the further criminal indictment of Israel as "an apartheid state," and the calling for the dismantling of this "apartheid state" -- a euphemism for Israel's destruction. If the proclamation of "Zionism as Racism" gave anti-Semitism the appearance of international sanction, the calling for the dismantling of the apartheid state of Israel is even more toxic and virulent, once again giving anti-Semitism the appearance of international sanction. Indeed, the increased characterization or libeling of Israel as a "Nazi state" is tantamount to transforming ideological anti-Semitism into a duty -- the obligation to remove this Nazi state, Israel."

"...the demonization of Israel through the escalating ascription of Nazi metaphors"

Full text

Interestingly right wingers call Cotler a Jewish Uncle Tom and the Conservative Party, in an election campaign flyer, accused him of sympathizing with anti-semites - this for championing the human rights of Muslim individuals and for attending the notorious Durban conference, organized by the UN, which provided an international soapbox for anti-Semitic remarks.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Stringsinger
Date: 22 Oct 11 - 10:39 AM

There seems to be sufficient sophistry in bandying about the term "chemical weapons".
Since chemicals are used in weaponry, the fact that propagandists in favor of wartime
parsing is not material to this issue. Their definition of "chemical warfare" is based on spin favoring their use.

The US is not an honest broker of any peace deal here. Noam Chomsky suggests that a country like Brazil would be a better arbitrator. I agree with that.

I don't see unanimity on the part of Mudcatters on this issue of peace. I see that
there are those here who care about peace and justice in Palestine and others who are defending atrocities.

Whenever Mudcatters attempt to speak for the whole of the group, they do a disservice and cloud the issue.


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