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BS: Palestine

Mrrzy 21 Sep 11 - 01:51 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 21 Sep 11 - 03:22 PM
akenaton 21 Sep 11 - 03:29 PM
GUEST,Bluesman 21 Sep 11 - 03:30 PM
Joe Offer 21 Sep 11 - 03:47 PM
robomatic 21 Sep 11 - 04:39 PM
Jim Carroll 21 Sep 11 - 04:45 PM
GUEST 21 Sep 11 - 04:56 PM
Bill D 21 Sep 11 - 04:58 PM
Richard Bridge 21 Sep 11 - 05:06 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 21 Sep 11 - 06:21 PM
Mrrzy 21 Sep 11 - 06:22 PM
Teribus 22 Sep 11 - 12:44 AM
GUEST,mg 22 Sep 11 - 01:57 AM
GUEST,number 6 22 Sep 11 - 02:13 AM
Jim Carroll 22 Sep 11 - 02:52 AM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Sep 11 - 02:53 AM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Sep 11 - 02:55 AM
GUEST,livelylass 22 Sep 11 - 03:17 AM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Sep 11 - 04:41 AM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Sep 11 - 04:47 AM
Jim Carroll 22 Sep 11 - 04:47 AM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Sep 11 - 05:16 AM
GUEST,livelylass 22 Sep 11 - 06:00 AM
McGrath of Harlow 22 Sep 11 - 06:03 AM
GUEST,livelylass 22 Sep 11 - 06:07 AM
Jim Carroll 22 Sep 11 - 07:37 AM
bobad 22 Sep 11 - 07:53 AM
Richard Bridge 22 Sep 11 - 08:08 AM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Sep 11 - 08:10 AM
Bobert 22 Sep 11 - 10:57 AM
Jim Carroll 22 Sep 11 - 11:45 AM
GUEST,number 6 22 Sep 11 - 11:55 AM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Sep 11 - 12:50 PM
GUEST 22 Sep 11 - 01:15 PM
MGM·Lion 22 Sep 11 - 02:02 PM
MGM·Lion 22 Sep 11 - 02:11 PM
Teribus 22 Sep 11 - 03:18 PM
GUEST,beardedbruce 22 Sep 11 - 03:50 PM
Jim Carroll 22 Sep 11 - 04:18 PM
bobad 22 Sep 11 - 04:29 PM
Jim Carroll 22 Sep 11 - 04:52 PM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Sep 11 - 05:32 PM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Sep 11 - 05:38 PM
McGrath of Harlow 22 Sep 11 - 07:03 PM
Stringsinger 22 Sep 11 - 07:21 PM
McGrath of Harlow 22 Sep 11 - 07:26 PM
Richard Bridge 22 Sep 11 - 07:57 PM
Justa Picker 22 Sep 11 - 08:17 PM
mg 22 Sep 11 - 09:42 PM
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Subject: BS: Palestine
From: Mrrzy
Date: 21 Sep 11 - 01:51 PM

...has been around as the name of a region since before the dawn of history, without actually ever having been a "nation" as defined by the Europeans when they took over in the 1500's. No "white man's papers" ("papier de blanc") as was said.

So, my question for the forum is: Given that Israel was carved out of that region, should it or should it not be up to Israel to determine whether Palestine gets to be a nation now? Or, in a more open form, what do you think of the Palestinians going straight to the UN, which seems to some to be an end run around the US and Israel (I'm not sure who else is on that side of the fence)?

I am curious about the tenor of opinion here. Our views often harmonize, and we can keep our tone civil when differences of opinion become discordant. If uke'n keep to musical metaphor, even better.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 21 Sep 11 - 03:22 PM

The Israelis will never agree to a Palestinian nation.
They will continue to nibble on the west bank, completely occupy Jerusalem, and encroach on former Egyptian territory in Gaza.
Obama's support for talks just prolongs the process of "no decision" and alienates more of the Muslim world. Israel is a dangerous "ally."

There have been several threads on this. I gusee one more won't overload the Mudcat archives.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: akenaton
Date: 21 Sep 11 - 03:29 PM

Obama is finished as a political force, his speech at the UN was hesitant, his voice shaky, he did NOT believe what he was saying and if he had the guts of a real leader he would have refused to say it.

As I said a couple of years ago.....a creature of the system....sorry!


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 21 Sep 11 - 03:30 PM

You mean the 51st state of America ?


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Joe Offer
Date: 21 Sep 11 - 03:47 PM

Isn't Jordan a Palestinian nation? When I visited the area ten years ago, it seemed to me that Bethlehem and Jericho and East Jerusalem were quite distinct from Israel, and Israeli encrosion into Palestinian territory seemed to be mostly limited to a few pockets of right-wing settlers here and there.
Of course, there's been a wall built since then, and that would make a big, big difference. For the most part, the problem with the wall is that it restricts the ability of Palestinians to enter Israel for shopping and employment and other activities.
While there are advantages to having a Palestinian state, Palestinians will be forever impoverished if they have no access to Israel. It's a situation similar to the Mexican-US border cities - the two sides of the border need each other.


-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: robomatic
Date: 21 Sep 11 - 04:39 PM

The push for a Palestinian state at this point in time is a prime example of bad timing, at least for those in favor of it. Along with the attempt to have Israel censured for settlements which came February at the height of the Arab Spring this year.

I have no faith in anything the Palestinians push for because they have not abandoned an unrealistic policy of defeating Israel and taking the place of its current inhabitants. Their 'shoot the moon' policy is continually being encouraged by the local nations who have been at the heart of the Palestinian plight, an uncompromising lack of acceptance of Israel in their midst, and its Jewish inhabitants as, well, Palestinians themselves.

Ultimately, there will be compromise, and there will be shared territory, but we're not there at this point in time.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Sep 11 - 04:45 PM

From The Irish Times this morning.
Now what was the question again!!!
Jim Carroll

BEDOUIN PEOPLE ISRAEL WANTS TO RELOCATE TO FORMER DUMP

As Palestinians prepare to seek UN statehood recognition, Israeli settlers have petitioned for the demolition of a school serving the children of 20 families
WE SET out from Jerusalem on Route One, Israel's fine new West Bank highway, turn off on to the narrow shoulder, plunge down a steep ravine along a slithery, sandy track, duck under a tunnel and climb to the hilltop where 20 Jahaleen Bedouin families have settled. To the right is the school that proudly proclaims itself a "primary mixed school" where 70 boys and girls study through sixth form.
During break, boys in blue T-shirts and jeans wrestle and rush about while girls in grey and white smocks, their hair neatly plaited, stroll round in threes and fours sharing packets of crisps.
The school consists of five one-storey buildings constructed by the men of the community using old tyres and plastered with mud. Here and there they left indented patches where tyre treads are exposed. The sixth and final form holds classes in a shed.
The UN Relief and Works Agency (Unrwa), which looks after Palestinian refugees, paid salaries to the men who worked 24 hours a day for a month to build the school with the help of Italian volunteers, nuns from Bethany, Rabbis for Human Rights, Israel's Peace Now movement and the Israeli Committee against Home Demolitions.
The school walls are thick, which means the rooms are cool in summer and warm in winter. A small generator stands idle near the latrine building: the Bedouin do not have $30 a month to run the motor.
On the other side of the fence marking the boundary of the school yard and just outside the window of the first-form classroom, the Israelis have placed vents for gas emitted by sewage piped to Route One from Kafr Adumim, the expanding Israeli settlement and outposts looming on the crests of hills rising high above Khan al-Ahmar. Israeli settlers have filed a petition for the school to be demolished.
The Jahaleen stopped sending smaller children to schools in Jericho because five of them were killed on the road while waiting for a bus. In any ease, families can no longer afford fares.
After the new school was built in 2010, Israel cancelled work permits for the menfolk who had menial jobs in the settlements, depriving them of their main source of income. Only the shepherd has work these days.
Unemployment is 99.99 per cent. Jahaleen men, women and children are slender and of medium height, and are totally dependent on Unrwa for sustenance. Some children have been stunted by malnutrition.
The tidy, elegant school buildings contrast starkly with the shelters where 160 members of the community live. These are ramshackle dwellings constructed on wooden frames, with walls of press board and cloth, and roofed with plastic in summer and metal sheets in winter. Israel has issued demolition orders for eight shelters, several livestock pens, and the makeshift mosque - built without permits which Israel does not grant.
The community lives in a tight enclave, bordered by the highway and the wadi below where the community's remaining 140 goats and sheep water.
Spokesman Abu Khamis, an accountant who was employed as a bulldozer driver, invites us to his diwan. Slipping off our shoes, we sit on mattresses in the shade of a mulberry tree. Kafr Adumim with its settler houses gleaming white under red tile roofs sits on the horizon. A cool breeze stirs the leaves of the the mulberry, its twin and a pomegranate, heavy with ripening fruit.
As sweet tea is served, Abu Khamis says, "We get water legally from Israel's Makarot company. Ten families have a supply, 10 do not."
Asked about power, he quips, "Is there something called electricity? We use the generator when we have a feast, wedding or funeral... Settlers come any time, day or night. Drive around, walk into the school and our houses. They sing or throw pebbles at our homes, waking us. The children scream and cry. Many wet their beds."
He shrugged when asked if the Palestinian leadership's bid for UN membership and recognition of statehood in East Jerusalem, the West Bank and Gaza could improve conditions.
"The sulta [the Palestinian Authority] and the Israelis co-operate against us."
The Jahaleen of Khan al-Ahmar are just one of 20 Bedouin communities, totalling 2,300 people, whom the Israelis intend to relocate to Jerusalem's vast rubbish dump at Bethany, the home of Lazarus raised by Jesus from the dead.
On the way back to the holy city, we pause at the dump where bulldozers have already buried the rubbish and levelled the site, which still reeks of toxic fumes.
To the east is the massive Israeli settlement of Maale Adumim, to the west Jerusalem, both forbidden to the Jahaleen. The move will destroy their way of life, force them to sell their livestock and compel traditional tribal antagonists to live together.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Sep 11 - 04:56 PM

"BEDOUIN PEOPLE ISRAEL WANTS TO RELOCATE TO FORMER DUMP"

At least they're not sending suicide bombers to kill them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Bill D
Date: 21 Sep 11 - 04:58 PM

It should not be "up to" Israel...but obviously, Israel is concerned about the nature of any such state and that state's attitude towards Israel. As I understand it, Israel has all along insisted that any Palestinian state must agree to totally recognize Israel.

Both sides continue to demand conditions that the other will not accept....and that most of each one's supporters will not agree to.

It's a stand-off...and made worse by the fact that any Israeli leader OR Palestinian leader who did offer the wrong concessions would fear for his own safety from his own side!

Sadly, it is almost hopeless... and would not be helped by the UN bestowing membership on a group that IS NOT a recognized state.


Perhaps all these new governments in Egypt, Libya...etc. will help break the impasse...someday.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 21 Sep 11 - 05:06 PM

USA seems to be on a sticky wicket this time - and not before time in this area.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 21 Sep 11 - 06:21 PM

Palestine's future lies with Egypt and Jordan, not Israel and its theocratic government.
The Israelis have cut the west bank area in two.
Bethlehem and Hebron are still under the Palestinian Authority, but may soon be lost as well.
Map here:

http://commons.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Palestine_Map_2007.gif


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Mrrzy
Date: 21 Sep 11 - 06:22 PM

Let's hope that we have to veto a UN decision. That should put us squarely in the wrong.

What does israel have up its butt anyway? Why not, after all this time?


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Teribus
Date: 22 Sep 11 - 12:44 AM

"They will continue to nibble on the west bank, completely occupy Jerusalem, and encroach on former Egyptian territory in Gaza."

Take a good look at the following map:

http://www.passia.org/palestine_facts/MAPS/Palestine_under_British_Mandate_1923_48.htm

You will see quite clearly that Gaza, the city of Jerusalem and the whole of the west bank all lay within and were part of the section of the mandated territory set aside for the establishment of the national homeland for the Jews.

The white lines on the map show the "green line" that came about with the cease-fire brokered by the UN in 1949. It shows the Palestinian territory invaded occupied and annexed by both Egypt and Jordan.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 22 Sep 11 - 01:57 AM

I recognize Palestine as a state, virtual or otherwise. I recognize Palestinians as a people. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 22 Sep 11 - 02:13 AM

I recognize Palestinians, Israeli's and in fact every human living on this earth as people.

"magine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace...

You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will be as one"

and that's all I have to say in this (already) thread worn thread.

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Sep 11 - 02:52 AM

"At least they're not sending suicide bombers to kill them."
Oh - that makes this behaviour ok then, does it?
Take out the "Suicide bombers" out and insert well-armed troops and you have the situation in a nutshell.
"They will continue to nibble on the west bank,"
Yes they certainly will.
Not long ago Israel passed a law restricting the absence from the country of any Arab to three years - failing to return within that period means the loss of citizenship of the 'culprit' - creeping ethnic cleansing.
Israeli policy is to gheotto-ise the Arab people militarily, using any opposition to that ghettoisation as an excuse for the use of extreme and brutal force.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Sep 11 - 02:53 AM

Jim, your long cut and paste tells us that these poor Beduoin expect equally bad treatment from the "Palestinians" as the Israelis.
Not much of an argument for a Palestinian state.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Sep 11 - 02:55 AM

"Take out the "Suicide bombers" out and insert well-armed troops and you have the situation in a nutshell."

Er, you would then have "At least they're not sending well-armed troops to kill them"

Who is doing that?


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: GUEST,livelylass
Date: 22 Sep 11 - 03:17 AM

"Let's hope that we have to veto a UN decision. "

The US and Israel are working overtime lobbying and pressurising those nations that they have any kind of power over or influence with, trying to ensure that this won't be the case.

As well as removing all aid to Palestine, back in February (I believe it was) Susan Rice even made a public statement making a strongly implied threat to withdraw all US monies to the United Nations itself, if the measure is passed - unfortunately I can't find the video where she makes those threats offhand but will try to seek it out.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Sep 11 - 04:41 AM

Livelylass, has aid yet been withdrawn from the Palestinions?
I thought something like $53Bn was allocated this year.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Sep 11 - 04:47 AM

The State Department, however, expressed strong reluctance to threaten the financial aid - totaling 550.4 million dollars in 2011, with 513.4 million requested for 2012 - to the Palestinians as a response to their U.N. initiative. Nuland said on Aug. 22 that, "We have not chosen to use our humanitarian aid in such a fashion. As you know, it is designed to help the Palestinian people and support their humanitarian needs."
http://ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=105107


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Sep 11 - 04:47 AM

"Who is doing that? "
The Israelis have been doing that for a while - along with chemical weapon bombardments - don't the newspapees reach Hertford
"Not much of an argument for a Palestinian state"
But cetainly an argument for continuing Israeli annexation, ethnic cleansing and brutality
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Sep 11 - 05:16 AM

"But cetainly an argument for continuing Israeli annexation, ethnic cleansing and brutality "
No.
Your big Irish Times paste referred to none of those things.

Chemical bombardment?
No newspaper I have ever seen mentioned Israelis doing that.
That would be an interesting cut and paste Jim.
Do you have one?


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: GUEST,livelylass
Date: 22 Sep 11 - 06:00 AM

Keith, I haven't found the video, but Rice in her capacity as the US ambassador to the UN made her statement 'threatening' the withdrawal of aid to the UN back in June - later her comments were 'clarified' as informal chit chat - but here's an article from The Telegraph:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/palestinianauthority/8597559/US-could-withdraw-funding-from-UN-if-Palestine-state-is-recognised.html

I'm unsure if she's repeated the threats about UN aid, but I believe Rice has made similar threats regards aid to the Palestinians much more recently in a continuing bid to pressure the PA and Arab League to withdraw the bid.

Of course such measures would only be realised if Palestinians and the UN do not accord with the US's wishes and drop the matter of Palestinian statehood, so it would be rather premature I suppose to expect to see any moves severancing the aid, being taken by the US as yet.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Sep 11 - 06:03 AM

The strange aspect of all this is the fact that Israel, and its agent in this context, the USA, are opposed to this.

Endorsing the existence of a Palestinian state within the boundaries of the West Bank together with Gaza, also implies endorsing the continuing existence of Israel within the very much larger part of what was Palestine. It means drawing a line under the aspirations of those, on both sides, who would prefer to see a unified state. It is in fact wholly in keeping with the interests of the regimes involved.

The only logic for Israel's opposition to this move would seem to be that of "if they want it we won't let them have it". Pre-school thinking.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: GUEST,livelylass
Date: 22 Sep 11 - 06:07 AM

PS - I'll have to look for something more current to confirm or otherwise what Rice has had to say more recently - as I may be in error there.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Sep 11 - 07:37 AM

"Your big Irish Times paste referred to none of those things."
No it didn't - it didn't have to - it is merely a report of the Israelis behaving like the "Master Race" they apparently believe themselves to be.
"No newspaper I have ever seen mentioned Israelis doing that."
You've attempted to argue this before - the Israelis were firing on hospitals, schools and residential area with heavy artillery in Gaza, they were using chemical weapons on built-up areas. Your argument has been that the chemical weapons they were using weren't "chemical" (no longer sustainable as the American agencies now refer to them as such)
There is little to distinguish between the behaviour of Israel towards Gazan non-combatants and that of the SS to say, the response to the assassination of Hiedrich by decimating Lidice.
Massacres of Palastinian villagers were part of the birth-pains of the state of Israel, and those massacres have become a part of its existence.
Obama's "Zioinst" (as described in the Times) speech at the UN and his declared intention to veto the 'Palastinian state' vote seems to have gone down like a led balloon there - lucky for them that they are a super-power and can bully their way through life.
Your defence of extremist behaviour by governments and their agents goes before you - I told you no more of your ultra-right Alice-in-Wonderlad rabbit-holes. I really can't be arsed with trying t cope with your not reading other people's posts and then denying that they haven't said anything.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 22 Sep 11 - 07:53 AM

A great many people think they are thinking when they are merely rearranging their prejudices. -- William James


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 22 Sep 11 - 08:08 AM

A little puzzled by that map, Teribus, unless I am imagining it is shows the Jewish state as quite a lot smaller than Israel today. Or do I misread you?


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Sep 11 - 08:10 AM

Smoke screening is not a chemical bombardment.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Bobert
Date: 22 Sep 11 - 10:57 AM

The best argument for having a Nation of Palestine is that it would make Israel safer... Until then Israel will be seen as the aggressor by the Arab nations and, in being seen that way, is less safe...

This is really a no-brainer... I find it interesting that a very large number of Israelis agree... But, like the the US, the right wing has controlled the conversation in Israel so don't expect any change until the Israelis figure out how to wrestle their government back from the hard liners...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Sep 11 - 11:45 AM

"Smoke screening is not a chemical bombardment. "
The CIA says otherwise - their statement was put up on this forum some time ago - try reading what others put up for a change.
Still an apologist for human rights abuses - as ever
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 22 Sep 11 - 11:55 AM

For those that continue to squabble of who is right and who is wrong I should point out (and Bobert did mention many Israelis agree) there are movements within Israel (connecting with the Palestinians) for a peaceful resolution, all we can do is hope such movements shine through the self interested political quagmire of various world governments .... the link below is one such movement for those who are interested

justvision

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Sep 11 - 12:50 PM

Jim, if that is true it shows that you were too gullible in believing everything said by CIA.
Every military in the world uses smoke, including that of your chosen country of residence.
It is not a weapon, never mind a chemical weapon.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Sep 11 - 01:15 PM

Israel was given to the Jewish people by England as some compensation for the Holocaust, and unfortunately, the country has been surrounded by people trying to destroy the state of Israel ever since. The Palestine people may have the same dilemna as the Native Americans of the USA- but there is little call for the people of the continental US to return their country to the Lenape. The Jewish High Holy days in Israel, and even in the US, are too often observed with terror, as that is the time that those who want to wipe Israel from the face of the earth decide to bomb, maim and kill Jewish people.

I am saddened to see so many people on the left align with Palestine, and other mideast countries, while forgetting the tragic fate from thousands of years of oppression that the people of the Old Testament have endured, and continue to endure.



Scratch the surface, and more often than not (like those who disguise their racial prejudice by raising specious questions about Obama's birth certificate) the cause is anti-Semitism, plain and simple. A long old prejudice.

The miracle of the Jewish people is that they still survive. And love and laugh and contribute to society in ways that are far more magnificent than their numbers.

Tikkon Olam.

And Happy New Year to those of the faith.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 22 Sep 11 - 02:02 PM

~~~There is little to distinguish between the behaviour of Israel towards Gazan non-combatants and that of the SS to say, the response to the assassination of Hiedrich by decimating Lidice.~~~

I think we have been more-or-less here before, Jim. A sense of proportion, please. And a Hegelian sense of the quantative becoming qualitative in assessing quite how 'little' there might be to distinguish...

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 22 Sep 11 - 02:11 PM

BTW ~~ Lidice was not 'decimated', Jim ~ it was wiped completely off the face of the earth DELIBERATELY AND WITH PURPOSE. The Israelis have done nothing remotely comparable with this. Which is not to say that I am not embarrassed and horrified by what the state of Israel is in danger of turning into; even my sister & her son [who was born there], who maintain their Jewish & Zionist identity which I don't, are having serious reservations. But Lidice was, in every sense, something else. Please don't trivialise your argument which such hyperbolical analogies; it does your case no good.

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Teribus
Date: 22 Sep 11 - 03:18 PM

Yep Richard that's right, the deal (proposed by the UN in 1947) that Jews accepted gave the Arabs of Palestine a great deal more than they are asking for now - BUT they turned it down and rejected it out of hand as they along with their Arab neighbours were going to kill all the Jews or drive all the Jews into the sea. Having done that they were then going to parcel out and hopefully profit from everything that Jewish settlers had spent about one hundred years creating.

In 1948 the Arabs of Palestine chose war and lost - Israel got a little bit bigger and so did the Arabs "allies" - Egypt annexed Gaza (originally part of Palestine) - Jordan grabbed the West Bank and half of Jerusalem (originally both parts of Palestine).

Did Egypt and Jordan give the land to the Arabs of Palestine? Did they hell as like they shut the Palestinian Arabs up in refugee camps on their own land and kept them there in poverty.

Ceasefires and armistace agreements have never meant anything to the Arabs of the region - THEY have never honoured any agreement they have made:

- 1948 UN Agreement broken
- 1956 UN Agreement broken
- 1967 UN Agreement broken
- 1973 UN Agreement broken
- 1982 UN Agreement broken
- 2006 UN Agreement broken

They are viewed as a means of providing a breathing space and returning to the start line until they are ready for the next try.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 22 Sep 11 - 03:50 PM

The LAST borders accepted by the Arabs was the partition of the original Mandate Palestine in 1923, with 77% becoming the Arab ( no Jews allowed) country of Transjordan ( Now Jordan). The Brits decided that they could NOT meet the mandate requirements of a single nation with both a Jewish and Arab population, so they gave the Arabs an area proportional to the TOTAL Arab population, and forbid Jews to settle or live there. SO, the remaining 23% was supposed to be the Jewish Homeland as specified by the treaty that ended WW 1 and created Lebanon, Syria, the borders of Turkey, etc.


IF the Arabs had accepted the UN partition, they would have ended up with a large portion of the Jewish Homeland- but they did not.

As for the 640,000 Arabs ( NOT the entire Arab population of the Jewish Homeland area, they chose to leave- and if they are to be compensated with land, I think it might be fair to compensate the estimated 820,000 JEWS driven out of Arab nations. So HOW MUCH ADDITIONAL LAND is Jordan going to give back to Israel, along with the entire West bank???

Israel settled those Jews that wished to live there ( 500,000 +, some went to the US, since they did not trust the Arabs) and the reasonable expectation was that, like with the parallel situation of population transfers in Pakistan and India, the Arab nations would settle those who left Israel.

They did not, creating generation of suffering for those Palestinian Arab refugees and their families.

The suffering of the Palestinian Arab refugees is a product of the actions of the Arab League, and those Arab nations that made no effort to settle them, but kept them in concentration camps and promised them the land of Israel.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Sep 11 - 04:18 PM

Can't be botehred finding the original posting, which came with horrific photos of the effect of white phophorus on children's faces and dealt with the use of such CHEMICALS on the civilians of Falujah by US troops, only to have it ignored - again - by you.
THis will have to suffice for the time being.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-intelligence-classified-white-phosphorus-as-chemical-weapon-516523.html
The US recognised that White phosphorus was a chemical weapon and used it on the civilians of Falujah
Attempting to claim the WEAPONS the Israelis used on hospitals and schools in Gaza are not "chemical" is - once again - defending war crimes - nothing less - no surprise there!
In spite of all your barnstorming demands for sympathy "for the victims" on your "let's prove that all male Pakistanis are "culturally implanted" with a paedophile tendency" thread - you have nowhere expressed either sympathy for the Bedouin victims of Israeli terrorism or condemnation of that terrorism - no surprise there either.
Nor have you chosen to comment on the outrageous removal of citizenship from those who overstay their trips abroad.   
"Lidice was not 'decimated', Jim"
One in ten of the population were taken out and shot - the village was then razed to the ground - that was my reference to "decimation".
"But Lidice was, in every sense, something else"
Only in the matter of degree - and the SS did have the excuse (in some people's eyes - not mine) that there was a war on at the time. The behaviour of Israel is no more than a war against civilians in retaliation for the opposition of others.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 22 Sep 11 - 04:29 PM

Comparing Israel's actions to that of Nazis is despicable anti-semitism.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Sep 11 - 04:52 PM

"Comparing Israel's actions to that of Nazis is despicable anti-semitism. "
No it is not - hiding behind - "you can't condemn Israel because it is Jewish" is despicable and ignores the atrocities comitted in the pursuit of a Jewish homeland - or so I am told by my Jewish friends..... but then again - they may be anti semitic!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Sep 11 - 05:32 PM

Jim, you have one old report about Sadaam's use of WP, where the one author erroneously referred to it as a "chemical weapon."
He was wrong.
Against the one, old, erroneous statement by some unknown, desk bound bureaucrat, you have the FACT that the military of all nations, including yours, including all the liberal democracies, including all those nations who have eschewed chemical weapons, all stockpile, train and when needed use it, in the certain knowledge that it is not a chemical weapon.
OK Jim?


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Sep 11 - 05:38 PM

Jim,
"In spite of all your barnstorming demands for sympathy "for the victims" on your "let's prove that all male Pakistanis are "culturally implanted" with a paedophile tendency" thread - you have nowhere expressed either sympathy for the Bedouin victims of Israeli terrorism or condemnation of that terrorism - no surprise there either."

I did express compassion for the child rape victims, and was ridiculed for it by you.
I never, ever, linked any race or culture with paedophilia, and told you repeatedly that there was no link. (so that is a lie.)
I referred to "these poor Bedouin" and pointed out that the "Palestinians" treated them at least as badly as the Israelis.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Sep 11 - 07:03 PM

I see that a few of us are, going round and round in circles saying the same things that have been said repeatedly by the same people, and which aren't immediately relevant to the topic of the thread...

Recognising Plestine as a state would do nothing to threaten Israel's interests. It wouldn't make Israel's continued occupation and planting of settlements any less illegal, or make it any harder for it to continue in defying existing UN resolutions. The territory of the West Bank and Gaza is not claimed to be part of Israel by the Israeli government, or by any other government.

If anything, recognition of Palestine as a state with full membership status would probably be in Israel's interests. It won't happen at this time, but that's just because of a need in Israel and in Washington to play to the gallery.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Stringsinger
Date: 22 Sep 11 - 07:21 PM

Three little letters, BDS.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Sep 11 - 07:26 PM

BDS


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 22 Sep 11 - 07:57 PM

I'm still not really following the Zionist argument here. By what right does Israel occupy any land sort of at the East end of the med, in the absence of any valid or agreed disposition of land there?


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Justa Picker
Date: 22 Sep 11 - 08:17 PM

I guess this bears repostng.
It was valid a few years and remains so.
It's (comedian) Dennis Miller's "Brief History of the Middle East"

=============================================

The Palestinians want their own country.

There's just one thing about that: There are no Palestinians.

It's a made up word. Israel was called Palestine for two thousand years. Like "Wiccan," "Palestinian" sounds ancient but is really a modern Invention. Before the Israelis won the land in war, Gaza was owned by Egypt, and there were no "Palestinians" then, and the West Bank Was owned by Jordan, and there were no "Palestinians" then. As soon as the Jews took over and started growing oranges as big as basketballs, what do you know, say hello to the Palestinians," weeping for Their deep bond with their lost "land" and "nation."

So for the sake of honesty, let's not use the word "Palestinian" any more to describe these delightful folks, who dance for joy at our Deaths until someone points out they're being taped. Instead, let's call them what they are: "Other Arabs Who Can't Accomplish Anything In Life And Would Rather Wrap Themselves In The Seductive Melodrama Of Eternal Struggle And Death."

I know that's a bit unwieldy to expect to see on CNN. How about this, then: "Adjacent Jew-Haters." Okay, so the Adjacent Jew-Haters want their own country. Oops, just one more thing. No, they don't.

They could 've had their own country any time in the last thirty years, Especially two years ago at Camp David. But if you have your own country, you have to have traffic lights and garbage trucks and Chambers of Commerce, and, worse, you actually have to Figure out some way to make a living. That's no fun. No, they want what all the other Jew-Haters in the region Want: Israel.

They also want a big pile of dead Jews, of course -- that's where The real fun is -- but mostly they want Israel.

Why? For one thing, trying to destroy Israel - or "The Zionist Entity" as their textbooks call it -- for the last fifty years has allowed the rulers of Arab countries to divert the attention of their own people away from the fact that they're the blue-ribbon most illiterate, poorest, and tribally backward on G-d's Earth, and if you've ever been around G-d's Earth, you know that's really saying something.

It makes me roll my eyes every time one of our pundits waxes poetic about. The great history and culture of the Muslim Mideast. Unless I'm missing something, the Arabs haven't given anything to the world since Algebra, and, By the way, thanks a hell of a lot for that one.

Chew this around and spit it out: Five hundred million Arabs; five Million Jews.
Think of all the Arab countries as a football field, and Israel as a Pack of matches sitting in the middle of it. And now these same folks swear that if Israel gives them half of that pack of matches, Everyone will be pals.

Really? Wow, what neat news. Hey, but what about the string of wars to obliterate the tiny country and the constant din of rabid blood oaths to drive every Jew into the sea? Oh, that? We were just kidding.

My friend Kevin Rooney made a gorgeous point the other day: Just reverse the Numbers. Imagine five hundred million Jews and five million Arabs. I was stunned at the simple brilliance of it.

Can anyone picture the Jews strapping belts of razor blades and dynamite to themselves? Of course not. Or marshaling every fiber and force at their disposal for generations to drive a tiny Arab State into the sea? Nonsense. Or dancing for joy at the murder of innocents? Impossible. Or spreading and believing horrible lies about the Arabs baking their bread with the blood of children? Disgusting. No, as you know, left to themselves in a world of peace, the Worst Jews would ever do to people is debate them to death.

Mr. Bush, God bless him, is walking a tightrope. I understand that with vital operations in Iraq and others, it's in our interest, as Americans, to try to stabilize our Arab allies as much as possible, and, after all, that can't be much harder than stabilizing a Roomful of supermodels who've just had their drugs taken away.

However, in any big-picture strategy, there's always a danger of Losing moral weight.

We've already lost some. After September 11 our president told us and the world he was going to root out all terrorists and the Countries that supported them. Beautiful. Then the Israelis, after months and months of having the equivalent of an Oklahoma City every week (and then every day) start to do the same thing we Did, and we tell them to show restraint.

If America were being attacked with an Oklahoma City every day, we would all very shortly be screaming for the administration to just be done with it and kill everything south of the Mediterranean and East of the Jordan.
==============================================


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Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: mg
Date: 22 Sep 11 - 09:42 PM

That above comes as close to hate speech as anything I have ever seen or heard. I personally know two former orange growers who had their lands taken from them..both are elderly now (one is alive..I am not sure of the other) and well-known in university circles. Oranges were grown in Palestine quite famously prior to lands being confiscated. And they are called Palestinians. That is what they call themselves; that is what I call them. The term was certainly in use in my lifetime. I really don't think anyone had to make it up. mg


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