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BS: security concerns about Norway shooting

Related threads:
BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway? (223)
BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp (317)


GUEST,mg 26 Jul 11 - 01:24 PM
Teribus 26 Jul 11 - 02:10 PM
ranger1 26 Jul 11 - 02:27 PM
GUEST,mg 26 Jul 11 - 03:45 PM
GUEST,mg 26 Jul 11 - 03:47 PM
GUEST,mg 26 Jul 11 - 04:55 PM
Teribus 26 Jul 11 - 07:21 PM
GUEST,mg 26 Jul 11 - 07:56 PM
GUEST,Peter K sans cookie 26 Jul 11 - 09:03 PM
Ebbie 26 Jul 11 - 10:04 PM
Greg F. 26 Jul 11 - 10:11 PM
mg 26 Jul 11 - 10:53 PM
mg 26 Jul 11 - 11:07 PM
Songwronger 26 Jul 11 - 11:30 PM
mg 27 Jul 11 - 12:05 AM
GUEST,Peter Laban 27 Jul 11 - 04:21 AM
Penny S. 27 Jul 11 - 04:38 AM
Backwoodsman 27 Jul 11 - 06:03 AM
McGrath of Harlow 27 Jul 11 - 06:22 AM
Peter K (Fionn) 27 Jul 11 - 07:03 AM
Jack the Sailor 27 Jul 11 - 09:01 AM
McGrath of Harlow 27 Jul 11 - 09:24 AM
Teribus 27 Jul 11 - 10:45 AM
Joe Offer 27 Jul 11 - 01:43 PM
Jack the Sailor 27 Jul 11 - 01:59 PM
GUEST,mg 27 Jul 11 - 02:00 PM
GUEST,mg 27 Jul 11 - 02:15 PM
GUEST,mg 27 Jul 11 - 02:31 PM
GUEST,PK still sans cookie 27 Jul 11 - 03:30 PM
GUEST,Peter Laban 27 Jul 11 - 04:28 PM
McGrath of Harlow 27 Jul 11 - 05:33 PM
GUEST,mg 27 Jul 11 - 05:44 PM
Teribus 27 Jul 11 - 08:48 PM
GUEST,.gargoyle 27 Jul 11 - 09:08 PM
Teribus 27 Jul 11 - 09:37 PM
Ebbie 27 Jul 11 - 10:17 PM
mg 27 Jul 11 - 11:03 PM
mg 27 Jul 11 - 11:27 PM
Peter K (Fionn) 28 Jul 11 - 03:05 AM
GUEST,Peter Laban 28 Jul 11 - 03:51 AM
Teribus 28 Jul 11 - 03:54 AM
Joe Offer 28 Jul 11 - 04:38 AM
GUEST,Peter Laban 28 Jul 11 - 05:01 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 28 Jul 11 - 07:21 AM
Jack the Sailor 28 Jul 11 - 07:26 AM
Jack the Sailor 28 Jul 11 - 07:32 AM
akenaton 28 Jul 11 - 07:47 AM
Jack the Sailor 28 Jul 11 - 07:50 AM
Jack Campin 28 Jul 11 - 08:02 AM
Jack the Sailor 28 Jul 11 - 08:05 AM
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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 26 Jul 11 - 01:24 PM

These are questions that have to be asked. Obviously stuff is still unfolding. People with all sorts of security credentials are asking the same questions, some of which seem foolish in retrospect.

Peter, I do not like personal abuse. Knock if off. No personal comments.

Everything I have read indicates that the police are unarmed..some say they have guns in their cars.

The fake policeman shot them...not the real one.


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Jul 11 - 02:10 PM

Norwegian Police Force & Arms:

I said before ALL Norwegian policemen are armed, they may or may not actually be carrying their weapons.

"Norwegian police do not carry firearms on a daily basis; they keep them locked down in the patrol cars, and if need arises they have to get permission by the police commissioner or someone authorized by him or her. If there is no time to contact a superior, a police officer may arm himself and anyone under his command. From 1994 to 2004 the Norwegian police fired approximately 79 shots; 48 of these were fired during the Nokas Robbery in 2004.

Type of firearms as previously stated:
H&K P30 9mm Semi-Automatic Pistol
H&K MP5 9mm Sub-machine Gun

Time the Police first heard about the incident 17:27 - Perpetrator under arrest 18:27. The shootings were taking place in a remote location in the immediate aftermath of the largest terrorist bomb ever exploded in Norway (The ONLY Terrorist Bomb exploded in Norway) with the Police and the Emergency Services at full stretch.

The specialist police squad were notified, mobilised and underway 11 minutes after first notification. They had to travel by car from Oslo - they did that journey in 31 minutes (it took Breivik over an hour, I know blue lights help, but the traffic chaos in Oslo when the Police made the trip would hinder them). Time to get onto the island and apprehend the gunman 16 minutes. Not bad.

The ONLY thing that would have prevented it, or at least reduced the slaughter would have been if someone on the island had had something to divert the gunman's attention and give him something to think about - i.e. a gun (Basically works in exactly the same way that GWB's tactic did in attacking Al-Qaeda - Take the initiative from your attacker).


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: ranger1
Date: 26 Jul 11 - 02:27 PM

Teribus, it wasn't the only terrorist bomb exploded in Norway. In 1982 another home-grown nutter set one off in the train station. I know, I was living there at the time. Fortunately no one was killed in that one.


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 26 Jul 11 - 03:45 PM

I knew about the guns in the cars. To me that is a definition of unarmed, but perhaps people have other definitions. By armed I mean on the body, or perhaps in the car if the officer were in the car too.

What I do not get is that it seems shooting started at 5:10 and police only heard about it at 5:25...

Lots of kids had phones on them..they were trying to call and were not put through by phone operators who were only taking calls (now thisis what I read..I was not there and I can not analyze every bit of information myself..that is what a community is for..international of course)...about the Oslo bombing...something is wrong there..15 minutes, 15 people..someone needs to review that..and they were texting parents etc. The whole phone thing needs to be looked at..did the camp have numbers of local police? Etc...there is a 15 minut delay..OK..12 perhaps..some got away quickly I am sure..and some hid in caves...surely they called and texted..there is a breakdown in the phone response somewhere. I still want to know the boat situation..you have 500 campers it seems..?? someone confirm? Some unheard from probably on advice of lawyers staff..probably some are Olympic quality swimmers, canoists etc..a camp of 500 in an island has to have a bunch of boats.

Shore 200 300 800 meters/yards away...what was staff trained to do and what did they do?

THe only reason so many survived is because of the strong physical fitness they had..we would not be so lucky here..there are many lessons to be learned for educators in this event..mg


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 26 Jul 11 - 03:47 PM

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/world/breakingnews/126196763.html


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 26 Jul 11 - 04:55 PM

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111903999904576470270835651248.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

One thing that surprised me..the Minister of Justice thought it was extraordinary that police interrupted their vacations. I would think it would be standard practice if your government headquarters or whatever it was blew up and teenagers were being massacred...I would expect everyone to be called back from vacation, especially the pilots if they were anywhere near.

I would also expect that they would ask for military helicopter backup, as they drove and tried to get boats. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Jul 11 - 07:21 PM

mg maybe you should take a look at the island for yourself.

"One thing that surprised me..the Minister of Justice thought it was extraordinary that police interrupted their vacations. I would think it would be standard practice if your government headquarters or whatever it was blew up and teenagers were being massacred...I would expect everyone to be called back from vacation, especially the pilots if they were anywhere near." - mg

Do you read the articles you supply links for??

The article states this:

"Norwegian Justice Minister Knut Storberget praised the police after meeting with officials Tuesday, commending their bravery and efforts after Friday's attacks, the worst peacetime atrocity in Norway. "They have worked far more than we can demand from anyone. Police throughout Norway HAVE interrupted their vacations and reported to work, and they are still at work now," Mr. Storberget said."

"I would also expect that they would ask for military helicopter backup, as they drove and tried to get boats." - mg

Article states:

1: "Oslo Police Chief Johan Fredriksen, speaking at a press conference Tuesday, said the issue of the helicopter had been "blown completely out of proportion," explaining that the availability was dependent on weather conditions and personnel."

Weather up by the Island was atrocious check out the film coverage of it - HINT - July all those people running around in foul-weather gear.

2: "A police spokeswoman said the helicopter was used only for surveillance, documentation and search operations and couldn't have been used to land officers on the island even if the crew had been available. "We could've also asked the armed forces to use one of their helicopters, but that would take longer to arrange and to get it to Oslo," the spokeswoman said."

So the Police Helicopter was not suitable to land armed officers on the island - I will take their word for it.

I asked you before Mary - Where would you have landed your helicopter? Take a good long hard look at the satellite pictures of the island. Hard enough to do at the best of times without adding the prospect of landing under fire from someone with a automatic weapon.

"Lots of kids had phones on them..they were trying to call and were not put through by phone operators who were only taking calls (now thisis what I read..I was not there and I can not analyze every bit of information myself..that is what a community is for..international of course)...about the Oslo bombing...something is wrong there..15 minutes, 15 people..someone needs to review that..and they were texting parents etc." - mg

Your mobile phone goes through an operator does it?? Mine doesn't. Emergency numbers to call in Norway are as follows:

"In the event of an emergency, please call:

110 - Fire
112 - Police
911 - Police (only from cellular phones)
113 - Ambulance
120 - Emergency at open sea"

So unless the 5/600 youngsters who were on that island actually knew the land line number of either the Hønefoss Police Station (unlikely) or of any local Lensmann, or the Police station In Sandvika or Oslo what would they get phoning 112 or 911 last Friday at about 17:15??? Is it at all possible that those lines might have been busy??

The likely chain that may be revealed was that children ran for cover at first shots which you claim started at 17:10hrs. If someone is about to shoot you Mary how far and how long do you run for before you stop to call it in? I would give that about 5 minutes to run and find cover (17:15).

Child is smart enough to know not to talk as talking will attract attention so they text home, they text their parents, who in turn telephone their local police stations who in turn contact police in Hønefoss and in Oslo by internal lines or comms systems.

Now does 10 minutes seem an inordinately long time for that process to you?? The step in that chain that would take longest would be the first two the texting to the parents and the parents reaction time. If anybody called me to get in touch with the police I would automatically go to 911 or 112, I wouldn't get through either so I would then have to look up the number of my local police station and call them. Once I'd got through then things would happen quickly - AND THEY DID.

"did the camp have numbers of local police" - No it did not, the island is small and no-one lives there permanently so why should ther be local police there. As far as I am aware the only policemen on the island was an off-duty officer who was attending the camp with his son - He was shot and killed attempting to tackle the gunman.

"I still want to know the boat situation..you have 500 campers it seems..?? someone confirm? Some unheard from probably on advice of lawyers staff..probably some are Olympic quality swimmers, canoists etc..a camp of 500 in an island has to have a bunch of boats."

These teenagers have been invited to the Island to attend a political rally, so you would pack them off with a boat each?? What the hell do you think this was like a "summer camp" in the USA?? These kids were there for a week-end of political discussion, they had just been addressed by one very famous ex-Prime Minister of Norway and were expecting to hear the current Prime Minister the following day - How common is it for the POTUS to attend political rallies for teenagers and address them? Would you expect the kids to blow him off to go play in a boat??

I think I saw a maximum number of four boats on the water from the news footage.

Some children ran fully clothed into ice cold FRESH WATER, ever heard of "cold water shock" it will kill you in 5 to 10 minutes, air temperature does not matter. Fresh water is less buoyant than salt water your clothes will pull you under in fresh water.


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 26 Jul 11 - 07:56 PM

Hope this is not a duplicate because I sent something but don't see it.

1. Yes, I read..quickly usually and not as thoroughly as I would like
2. I see that they have interrupted their vacations. I would expect no less from security people when their government has been attacked and their children are being massacred.
3. Availability of helicopters..well, a private one was flying. Pictures I have seen did not show foul weather gear on civilians waiting on the other side. Weather changes fast there I am sure. They kept saying a helicopter was not operational. Others say that was because pilots, plural, were on vacation. For a swat team? Or maybe it was not a swat helicopter. But they were saying at first they decided not to take helicopter because it was too far away. BUt then they were saying that it didn't carry teams anyway and was only for surveillance. This is Norway, not Somalia. They have money from North Sea gas etc. Lack of some stuff in a prosperous country is hard to understand.

4. If I call 911 or whatever they did..I get a person. They called and got a person, or so I have read. Persons told them they could not take their calls because of Oslo bombing. This was 2 hours after bombing..if they were short of personnel should have called in others. Perhaps equipment could not handle..but no, because they got through to persons who turned them away.

5. Helicopters do not have to land. People might have to jump, under fire, with full gear. Hopefully their weapons are as powerful as the madman's. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: GUEST,Peter K sans cookie
Date: 26 Jul 11 - 09:03 PM

'that is what a community is for'...'someone confirm'... '200 300 800 yards/metres'...'or whatever'...
Rarely have i seen such determined indolence, and never at all when the subject was obviously of concern to the writer. And not even a word of thanks to Teribus for so painstakingly setting out what is there for all of us to read.
If there is a lesson to be learned, it is that all governments should have mg's phone number to hand, so that she can be called on to mastermind the response to any future disaster.


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: Ebbie
Date: 26 Jul 11 - 10:04 PM

"200 300 800 yards/metres"

Does the writer have any idea of how far even 200 metres/yards is? Swimming is not like running in a mad dash for 600 feet. Four times (!) that length is a L O N G slog, calling for more than a tossed off number.


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: Greg F.
Date: 26 Jul 11 - 10:11 PM

Like I said- she's off her meds. Ignore hger.


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: mg
Date: 26 Jul 11 - 10:53 PM

Please help me find out the distance officially..from a mutually agreed upon point to another maup. I have been searching. I have seen many numbers..probably not all referring to the same points. Originally they were sayin 300 meters..and as low as 200 and as high as 800. Who knows the exact answer? Please give it.

As for it not being a traditionally styled summer camp, it has been described that way in everything I have read.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/24/world/europe/24island.html?_r=2

If it was not a traditional camp, it is odd that the first time I have heard it was not was a posting here. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: mg
Date: 26 Jul 11 - 11:07 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3pt6-XCAVc8

Here is a you tube video. Someone asked about places for helicopters to land..looks like lots of places to me, including pavement. Lots of clearing surrounded by lots of trees.

I do not share his assessment of the weather from looking at this. I see people in shorts and t-shirts, as well as light raingear..it looked like light rainful, not some terrible weather that would impeded anything..boats were skimming right through the water, which was calm. Air looked calm, perhaps a bit of rain or drizzle.

This has to be pieced together with people of good intentin. Obviously personal abuse will stop many conversations. There is at least one person here I will not read for that reason. THese questions are being asked, and as I have said, by high level people in various places. If you let fear of being called a fool stop you from what really needs to be done you have given up too easily. And future lives are at stake, but the more people who raise these questions, the better security is going to be.


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: Songwronger
Date: 26 Jul 11 - 11:30 PM

Is it true that the security people on the island weren't armed? Norway has a robust gun culture, so why would the security personnel not be armed?

Another slaughter in a gun-free zone?


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: mg
Date: 27 Jul 11 - 12:05 AM

Apparently there was one part-time security person, ex police officer or perhaps moonlighting. He is said to be the stepbrother of the Princess and said to have a 10 year old son he protected.

A woman, variously described as one of the camp leaders, a museum person, and an accountant, had suspicions about shooter while talking to him on the ferry, where he was visibly armed and dragging some sort of suitcase. She ran to a house on the island to get the security person. He is said to have followed them and shot them both.

There is question as to whether he took the official ferry or some other boat related to the camp.

I have read he..security person.. was unarmed. Many people say that all officers are unarmed but have weapons in their cars and can get them..hopefully quickly. To me unarmed means nothing on the person or close at hand, but others have other definitions. You would think that everyone would be told to arm themselves after the Oslo explosion.

I have also just read that there were large numbers of ambulances and medical people on the shore, but also that police asked for volunteers among the youth at the camp to help with the wounded. You would think that as soon as the coast is clear, and you never know for sure that it is, but the main shooter gave up easily...they would ask for the flotilla of boats to bring over EMTs as quickly as possible and not wait for treatment after a chilling boat ride, and not further traumatize the youth. It was a very short ride over.

There are so many mysteries here and questions. Of course there is confusion and we won't know the exact distance from one shore to another for awhile, unless someone finds an official answer, which of course will be different between every two points.\

And begging your pardon, Ms. E...but I did not toss off the number. I have seen many numbers given by fairly reputable sources. It is an irregular island and unless people agree on where they are measuring from and to, an exact number is not possible to give. Please educate me if you know the correct number. Lots of places have just said several hundred meters. It was close enough for some swimmers to make it across I believe, despite freezing cold water..but many were picked up by boats from the shore. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 27 Jul 11 - 04:21 AM

You would think that everyone would be told to arm themselves after the Oslo explosion.

No you wouldn't. Not a single person in their right mind would think so. It's all hindsight, hindsight and paranoid 'let's arm and everything will be allright' thinking.



Article : Let's not patronise Norway


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: Penny S.
Date: 27 Jul 11 - 04:38 AM

I would not have been able to swim that distance at that age, even the shortest estimate. The lake looks like a glacial lake, which would be very deep. Judging by the warnings given round where I live about swimming in chalk quarry lakes, which are similarly deep with steep drops from close to the edge, there could be strong wind driven down currents, as well as very cold water - and here the cold is stressed even in summer, even in relatively small bodies of water. In that large body, that far north and this early in the summer, currents and temperature would be more severe. People were clothed, and this would have made sinking more likely. They were already in shock, and that would affect their temperature control and their ability to swim effectively.
I spent my teens in Dover, where in the harbour was moored a raft reputed to be used for testing paint. It looked close enough to swim to. It wasn't, and people regularly got into trouble trying to. Some really strong swimmers could do it - the head of the local girls' grammar school could, and back - but even the most show-off teeangers knew not to try. The distance to the island looks to be of the same order.

Penny


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Jul 11 - 06:03 AM

God save us from amateur security 'experts', especially those from the other side of the world who have no understanding of the cultures, social structures and geographical factors of European countries, and whose 'expertise' seems to be a mixture of obsession and hysteria in equal measures.

'Leave it to the real experts' would be a better plan.


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Jul 11 - 06:22 AM

Norway and the United States are very different countries. That appears to be something that mg finds hard to appreciate.

No doubt it will turn out that there were things that could have been done better in this unprecedented tragedy. Working out what those might be is something that can only be done by people who have some specific and detailed knowledge, which none of us have, even if we are many thousands of miles distant, living in a totally different society.


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 27 Jul 11 - 07:03 AM

That's a thoughtful article at the end of Peter Laban's link, presenting a point of view that would be beyond mg's comprehension, and perhaps beyond the comprehension of many other Americans. If just a little bit of such thinking had informed the response to 9/11, America might have retained the worldwide support it had in the immediate aftermath and the world would be a happier place.


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 27 Jul 11 - 09:01 AM

mg, I don't agree with many of your points. I do admire how you have handled the condescension an insults. You are patient and kind.


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Jul 11 - 09:24 AM

I'd echo that last comment by Jack.


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: Teribus
Date: 27 Jul 11 - 10:45 AM

To Peter Laban thanks for the link to that article - wonders will never cease an article written by Simon Jenkins where I actually agree with him.

No mg does not understand the massive differences between the USA and the countries of Europe and Scandinavia. She would also help her cause and save herself a great deal of time were she to just "google" up a map of the Island in question, simple enough. Each map displays a scale from which the distance between the island of Utøya and the lake shore can be extrapolated. The island of Utøya is located at the entrance to the part of the lake known as Holsfjorden this is the deepest part of Tyrifjord and it is some 330 metres deep.


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: Joe Offer
Date: 27 Jul 11 - 01:43 PM

I'm told that this is a basic difference between Americans and Europeans...except that I tend to share the European perspective. When Americans encounter a situation like this, their response is to get more guns and tighter security. Europeans, on the other hand, call for tighter restrictions on guns.

But I know many Americans who, like me, think that civilians have no business owning or using guns for anything other than hunting. The idea of having a gun "for protection" is abhorrent to us.

The US is an armed country, despite the fact that many of us won't own guns. But there is a feeling here, that there are weapons present even when we can't see them. We adjust our lives accordingly and take necessary precautions. I think I prefer the European idea of living where one expects there won't be guns. There will, of course, be exceptional situations like this one in Norway; but most times I think it would be better not to be living in a gun culture.

And some of my neighbors would say my disdain for guns is un-American, and if I hate guns so much and like socialized medicine so much, I should move to Europe.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 27 Jul 11 - 01:59 PM

>>And some of my neighbors would say my disdain for guns is un-American, and if I hate guns so much and like socialized medicine so much, I should move to Europe.<<

This is an unintended consequence of Freedom of speech. It protects the right of the ignorant and unpatriotic to speech.

What do these idiots think that "Give me Liberty, or give me Death! means? Why do they think the country was founded in the first place? To save a few pennies in taxes? It is not about guns. It never was. It was about freedom. Freedom and democracy. An Amish has just as much right to be here as one of those flag waving, mega church, follow Christ in name only, prosperity gospel, cowardly, ignorant, unpatriotic douche suckers.


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 27 Jul 11 - 02:00 PM

Of course there is condescension and insults. THat is how many people get their pleasure. In the meantime, these exact questions have been asked by enough people that their is going to be a special investigation, and I hope it includes the call center for their "911."

http://www.montrealgazette.com/news/world/announces+Norway+massacre+probe/5164781/story.html

Read how a father received a message from his daughter, called the police and was told to have the youth call the police. Unfortunately, some did and they were turned away by the operators saying that they were only taking calls relating to Oslo bombings. Note..it was not an overloaded cell phone or rotary phone system. The calls got in.

I fail to see hysteria here. I see what should be done after every disaster..that is people outside the area jumping in and looking at it from every angle. There will be other situations in the world. Everything should be scrutinized. Some countries have almost no resources and it is hard to say what should have been done. Here lots of people are pointing out minute by minute, and each minute equals one teenager shot, where lives could have been saved, and could be in the future.

My computer is not doing well on maps and I do not have unlimited time...I am not obsessed about how far it was..I have read a number of distances..most professional journalists are saying several hundred meters. I have a very strong interest in not leaving people to die frankly, and I wonder what would be wrong with that..I don't see how that would change between cultures frankly..there are some universal truths, which to me would include speed of response in a situation and preplanning for many eventualities in a world of terror and never ever saying this could not happen here. And analyzing every step of the process where every minute saved a life could have been saved. Sorry of some of you don't agree with that. It seems being nasty takes priorty. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 27 Jul 11 - 02:15 PM

by everyong arming themselves, it obvisouly in context refers to the police officers who might have them in their cars but not on their persons.


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 27 Jul 11 - 02:31 PM

I don't get this thing about not knowing other cultures etc. Everyone in every disaster should welcome contributions from other countries..eventually..although perceived criticism..and that is really not what this is although it might look that way..would not always be appreciated..contributions could include physical help as in earthquakes, financial help, intel help, suggestions as to how things were done in similar disasters with good results..

It is of course very hard to say what a country with no resources to speak of should do. If North Korea has a tsunami we will not have the same responses as when Japan did. We certainly were criticized rightfully over Katrina response and people left on roofs to bake in the sun for days when a flotilla of boats was ready to go and rescue them and was kept out..and yes..some were actual swiftboaters.

A country, especially a very closed country, can not criticize from within, especially as citizens wait for relief. There will also be codes of silence and exhortations that this is not the time and there will be a full investigation. But the time is as quickly as possible and from as many sources as possible and then the experts can sift through and separate the wheat from the chaff. Some of what looks like chaff could be of extreme importance though. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: GUEST,PK still sans cookie
Date: 27 Jul 11 - 03:30 PM

...'that doesn't change between cultures...' It doesn't, mg. But if you read Peter Laban's link and you won't fail to see there IS a gulf between your culture and mine. And please give some consideration to Joe's excellent post.


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 27 Jul 11 - 04:28 PM

Joe hits the nail on the head, but there's something at the root of the gun culture: American culture seems to be regulated by fear and the feeling there's a constant need to defend oneself.

Life as I know it, is not about constant fear, fear of 'the bad guys', fear of scammers, fear of germs, fear of life itself almost. Life here is lived without the feeling that every person is 'out to get you'. It's a different state of mind altogether.


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Jul 11 - 05:33 PM

Of course sometimes someone is out to get you. But the chances are anticipating that won't actually make you any safer, just unhappier.

When you let the cat in at night, there might indeed be a man-eating tiger in the garden waiting for you. But...


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 27 Jul 11 - 05:44 PM

I would throw the cat at the man-eating tiger and escape unharmed. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: Teribus
Date: 27 Jul 11 - 08:48 PM

"What do these idiots think that "Give me Liberty, or give me Death! means? Why do they think the country was founded in the first place? To save a few pennies in taxes? It is not about guns. It never was. It was about freedom. Freedom and democracy."

Bullshit your "give me liberty of give me death" was a trumped up slogan based upon Sweet Fuck All covering a land grab. The land being grabbed being owned by the indigenous tribes and guaranteed by a Treaty made in 1754 with the British Government of the time in recognition of the assistance rendered by those Indian tribes in defeating the French.

To put into simple terms that you might understand Jack - You lot grabbed and stole land from the indigenous tribes exactly as you accuse the Israelis of stealing land from the Palestinians - Both North and South of the US and Canadian borders.

Care to tell me what the word hypocrite means Jack (Who may or may not be a legal jerkwad, or illegal jerkwad - something Jack has yet to clarify)


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 27 Jul 11 - 09:08 PM

"hypocrite means" - you are very jealous
Your daddy was not onena de founding fellas.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

The cream rises to the top
The rest is left to molder and rot.
Some call it curds
Others call it whey
Some never invest - waiting for the government way.


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: Teribus
Date: 27 Jul 11 - 09:37 PM

By God mg you do witter on..... and that is exactly what it is that you are doing - wittering on and not making the slightest effort to realise what the situation is.

Now go away and do some real bloody research.... HINT It takes a bit of work and effort but please try, before you criticise what the emergency services did achieve in very trying times and under exceptional circumstances.

In doing so please acknowledge that not everything in life is always perfect and it never ever will be. Do not compare what happened in Norway last Friday to anything whatsoever to do with Hurricane Katrina where most of the American population and MSM where more intent on kicking your President and his administration than nailing the Mayor of New Orleans who should have reacted a damn sight quicker than he did.

So you are concerned about minutes? Where one minute elapsed time is represented by one dead child? Fair enough arm each child so that the child can kill the person attacking them - Happy now?? Problem solved the good old American way??

Get this through your thick skull (I say that because you have undoubtedly proved that you are asking questions the answers to which are readily available yet you choose to ingnore information you receive) such an occurence has NEVER happened in Norway before - you sitting fat dumb and happy over there in the good ol' US of A chipping in with your ill-informed criticism. You are doing no bloody good at all. Recognise one thing and recognise it well this was an extremely well planned attack perpetrated by one single person who had thought about this and planned this over the course of NINE YEARS. He had no accomplices, there were no traces, his security was faultless - totally undetectable - In the US you had as much probability as stopping Timothy McVeigh - You didn't

Go away leave this alone. THE WHOLE OF NORWAY is mourning what has happened - EVERYONE IN NORWAY is mourning what has happened, native Norwegian and Immigrant alike - we do not need your concern or your bloody stupid questions and criticisms. The inquiry called by Jens Stoltenberg will provide all those answers. Basically it has nothing whatsoever to do with you, you have been given information and you have chosen to ignore it.


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: Ebbie
Date: 27 Jul 11 - 10:17 PM

"You lot grabbed and stole land from the indigenous tribes"
Teribus

Whoa. In the first place Jack the Sailor was not born in the US but adopted it. Secondly, it was YOU lot who did the grabbing and treaty breaking. The US did not yet have its freedom from the English.


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: mg
Date: 27 Jul 11 - 11:03 PM

well, obviously I am making an effort to understand the situation, but somehow I shouldn't be. Everything in the world affects every last one of us. There are crazy people all over the world and they do awful things. We all have to do our parts to point out sometimes obvious and sometimes subtle security weaknesses or we will all suffer. It is too late for these kids, but might not too late for the next batch. Collective questions and answers in public forums are bringing things to people's attention. Without questions, very public questions, I doubt there would have been an inquiry. It would have been written off as something that has never happened here and who could have predicted it. We all have to realize those days are over and start predicting stuff and make sure that systems are in place for indiginous or external threats to be met...we know the consequences of not doing this..they were on the beach. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: mg
Date: 27 Jul 11 - 11:27 PM

http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/europe/07/27/norway.breivik.chronology/

good report with good click to heroic boat driver who got right up to the island and rescued 50 kids in 3 trips..first I had heard someone made it all the way to the island. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 28 Jul 11 - 03:05 AM

We all have to realize those days are over and start predicting stuff

This attitude is exactly the problem. We can 't predict stuff. Norway could spend a fortune guarding against a repeat of last week's episode, but that would merely guarantee that the next nutter who wants to make an impact will do it a different way.

The US may have done enough to ensure that there will never be another 9/11, but in terms of preventing another spectacular outrage, that's just a gesture. The next time will probably not involve aircraft at all. It could be a nuclear device in one of the two-three million containers that arrive, unsearched, on the US western seaboard every day. So spend half an hour searching each container. What next, mg?

Of course, rather than screwing up life for everyone by guarding against what will probably never happen, we could simply take a more realistic attitude to risk. Which is why I was always happy for my daughter to trust strangers, even though one in every few million was probably a paedophile. (She survived.)


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 28 Jul 11 - 03:51 AM

'well, obviously I am making an effort to understand the situation, but somehow I shouldn't be'

I don't think there's anything wrong with trying to understand the situation but what is not helpful and at times gravely irritating are the assumptions and judgements you make while doing so. Little inserts like 'God help us' when unarmed adults/guards in a youth camp are mentioned show that you come at this from a mind-set that fails, refuses maybe, to understand the circumstances of the society in which the situation developed and you are seemingly not trying to obtain any understanding of that different mindset. You just charge forward, tunnel vision, if there's a thing people on this thread feel you shouldn't, that's probably it.


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Jul 11 - 03:54 AM

"Whoa. In the first place Jack the Sailor was not born in the US but adopted it. Secondly, it was YOU lot who did the grabbing and treaty breaking." - Ebbie

I think that the historical evidence is pretty much on my side. The British Government of the day tended to honour it's treaty obligations to the native tribes who had allied themselves with the British against the French in 1754.

It was the settlers and colonists that wanted those treaties broken so that they could expand by taking "Indian" land.

Question for you Ebbie - in the War of 1812 whose side did the Indians of the five nations fight on? Answer they fought for the British. Now why would they do that if what you say was true? Because with the British their land was safe.

Always love the way that when chattering away about the War of Independence it was The Americans that won the war and defeated The British but when it comes to anything negative it was British Settlers and Colonists who robbed the Indians of their land.

Explore and take a look at how the expansion into the Ohio and Wabash Basin occured.

Your War of Independence and the War of 1812 had bugger all to do with "Taxation"; "Representation" or "Liberty and Death" all such pretexts were simply mendacious excuses to cover a monstrous act of theft driven by greed. The precedent set was continued with from 1776 onwards until you reached the Pacific Ocean - or was all that our fault too?


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: Joe Offer
Date: 28 Jul 11 - 04:38 AM

I live in a rural area, in the Sierra Nevada foothills of California. I'm near a major highway, so I guess I could expect a sheriff's deputy or an ambulance to arrive in 45 minutes if I called. My friend Debby lives 20 to 30 minutes up the hill, but I still call her a neighbor. I'd bet she'd wait an hour and 15 minutes for a deputy or an ambulance.

That's the price you pay for living in the country - but then, crime doesn't happen here very often. Who'd dream that such a terrible crime would happen at a summer camp on an island? We certainly had no thought of that at the rural Wisconsin camps where I worked during college - and we never, ever saw police officers. If a kid had to go to the hospital, we took him - it took too long to wait for an ambulance. That's the reality of not living in the city.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 28 Jul 11 - 05:01 AM

Very true Joe. When we moved here a neighbour told us 'we get a heart attack only once here'.

In connection with the present subject I couldn't help thinking of the Aran islands, islands I can see if the day is clear enough. There are no guards on the two smaller islands, they are served by the guards on Inish Mór, two during summer, one during winter I believe. Essentially there is no police presence on the two smaller islands at all and that probably holds true for all islands off the Irish coast. Try huffing and puffing at the lack of armed security at the Irish language colleges there.


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 28 Jul 11 - 07:21 AM

In fairness to Mary, it must be difficult, when you live in a country where the police will pick up anybody they find taking a stroll late in the evening and deliver them home for their own safety, to understand that in most of Europe it is usually safe to do this if one sticks to well lit streets.

Listening to the responses of Norwegian citizens since the attack, one thing is clear.

They are determined that this will not engender a culture of fear and paranoia in one of the World's most peaceful countries.

In other words, you will NOT see armed police on the street corners, and you will NOT see any increase in personal weapons.

Norwegians will get on with their lives as before, and in the background some changes will be made in the ease of acquiring bomb making materials and guns.

The reason why the USA needs police with guns is precisely because too many US citizens have guns, and please don't give me that old bullshit about the provision of an armed militia to protect against a rogue government. G W Bush is still alive, so that dog won't hunt.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 28 Jul 11 - 07:26 AM

Teribus

I am starting to think you believe this crap.

Here are a couple of simple facts.

I have never oppressed a native person. I am far too young to have made that choice.

My family came to Newfoundland after the genocide of the Beothic people was a done deal. So I could not accept responsibility for those actions even if I wanted to.

I like to think that I would have tried to prevent a lot of the violence on the native people. But I don't know. I'll never have that choice. What is done is done. But I do have a choice about Israel.

Israel is doing what it is doing now. With my tax money. That gives me a responsibility to object. If I don't object. I am complicit.

One of the things that concerns me the most about Zionists is that they cannot win. Demographics will beat them. Economics will beat them. As fear of the past slips into the past and people become more enlightened and less superstitious. The good, the humanity and the education level of the Jewish people will beat them.

All of that has zero to do with a nut job killing children in Norway. If you are civilized and sensible you will not conflate the two because if you make the connection between what he has done an what you see as excessive immigration, you excuse and justify what he has done. Civilized people cannot excuse what he has done. Sensible people would not excuse it.

Are you sensible and civilized? If so, please raise your concerns about Norway's immigration in another context.


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 28 Jul 11 - 07:32 AM

"In fairness to Mary, it must be difficult, when you live in a country where the police will pick up anybody they find taking a stroll late in the evening and deliver them home for their own safety"

Will you all please give the sarcasm a rest.

We get it. You all think Mary is stupid and you all think yourselves very clever.

Mary is right about one thing.
Of course Norway will reexamine their security protocol. They will address their security concerns. They will make it all but impossible for the same thing to happen again. Hopefully the will do with without changing the way they live.


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: akenaton
Date: 28 Jul 11 - 07:47 AM

Get a grip Jack ....As far as I can see there is not one single person attempting to excuse the crime...anyone doing so would be as deranged as the perpetrator.

Teribus has written alot of good and informative stuff on this thread, he obviously knows what he is talking about, and smear tactics wont change that.


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 28 Jul 11 - 07:50 AM

Get a grip yourself. Take your bigotry elsewhere. It is not appropriate here.


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: Jack Campin
Date: 28 Jul 11 - 08:02 AM

They will make it all but impossible for the same thing to happen again.

The chances of it happening again are close to nil no matter what they do. In particular, if they do nothing.


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Subject: RE: BS: security concerns about Norway shooting
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 28 Jul 11 - 08:05 AM

Of course you are right Jack. On the other hand.

If they have continue to have such politically charged events with such a small amount of security, I would be surprised.


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