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BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?

Related threads:
BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp (317)
BS: security concerns about Norway shooting (142)


Mrrzy 23 Jul 11 - 10:36 AM
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Subject: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 10:36 AM

This thread is intended to follow up on both skarpi's assuming-it-was-moslems thread and the idea on the horrific-event-in-Norway thread of why are we talking about islamist terrorists when this one was christian, which would be unfortunate thread creep.

I at first thought al q'aeda from the two attacks in such a short time. It's beginning to look as if it was *almost* the same thing - the same god, the same fundamentalism, the same weapons (guns and bombs), the same targets (innocents/civilians rather than occupying troops) - but a single person rather than an organization, and a christian rather a moslem.

Sigh. I really hate not knowing whom to fear. And may I remind the Forum that I have personal experience with terrorists killing my innocent loved one.

It was still a horrible thing. But this is another aspect to discuss.

After all, how many of you assumed it was the islamofundies again?


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 10:40 AM

MSNBC did.


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: skarpi
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 10:46 AM

Mrrzy , first new s here yesterday was that an Islamic group Al-Islam ? gave out
news report that they had done it , don´t get me wrong ok .

but I still think that one man could not have done this.

kv Skarpi


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 10:48 AM

Sorry skarpi, I thought you did what I did, my apologies! And the one man was awfully well organized, I agree. They are saying maybe two, now, anyway. Which would make the organizations more similar.


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 10:48 AM

Never assume anything until, you have at least the minimum of facts. I was glad that in all this the BBC stuck to that principle, and always made it clear that it shouldn't be assumed it was anything to do with Al Qaeda or Gaddafi.


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 10:50 AM

Yes, I felt bad. I did the same thing in 1995 in Oklahoma.


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Lox
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 10:58 AM

I guess anyonecan make mistakes - especially when they are afraid.

And I guess more people are going to be afraid when the media has such an outrageously Islamophobic position.

This is another reason why Murdoch needs to be shut down.

The Sun Front page


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 11:01 AM

Well, I didn't assume anything and we have to remember that in these circumstances the first news out is often very sketchy and should not be relied upon as total fact.

My first thoughts were how terrible for the people who have been directly affected and for all people affected by terrorism irrespective of who is responsible for the act of terrorism.


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Donuel
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 11:07 AM

I wrote these lyrics this morning. Please allow me to repost it.



I know that YOU know you're right. You know a man who knew he was right. He murdered four score and four children to prove Muslims are the terrorists to fight.

The shock and denial of the waiting parents is hell incarnate, waiting for word of their child as police stand before a curtain.

They already know that the odds of thier child being murdered or gravely injured is not 1 in 4 but virtually certain.

The pain and guilt is unbearable. If only I... What if I... Why?
Who? What if they...What if you.. What if I... and they break down and cry.

Our opinons turned to anger. We yelled the killer is Muslim, no the killer is Jewish, no the killer is Christian, no the killer is right wing extremist. And we are lost, bickering among ourselves.

With all the reflection of research with science and religious study, justice will never satisfy; we fall into a loneliness and depression, and feel we can no longer cry.

He knew guns and bombs would teach the world. He pledged he would no longer be powerless. Still he felt every insult that's hurled. He felt everything to gain if you could feel his pain and that is why he is so dangerous.

We will point to patterns of hate and we'll try to accept our fate but no one or thing will change the fight of the bestial proud predator in the man who believes he is Right.

OH yes indeed, YOU know you are right.


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 11:10 AM

Why do so many people immediately immediately jump on the "terrorism" bandwagon when it could simply be one- or possibly 2- deranged individuals?

Wherever Bin Laden is, he's laughing so hard he's pissing himself.


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Donuel
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 11:26 AM

Like Godfrey, too soon.


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 11:39 AM

Oh I have no doubt it was terrorism. He was certainly trying to terrorize those he disagreed with.


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 11:46 AM

There are different kinds of terrorism; it is difficult to imagine that whoever was responsible did this without the thought of bringing terror in mind.


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Teribus
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 11:57 AM

"Wherever Bin Laden is, he's laughing so hard he's pissing himself." - Greg F

What is this obsession of yours with incontinence?

Plus this simple observation:

Wherever Bin Laden is currently bobbing about on the floor of the Arabian Sea, if he is pissing himself how would he be aware of it??


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 12:01 PM

I don't think Greg was being literal or referring to the physical.


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: skarpi
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 12:06 PM

Icelandic Police on a higher alert , after this attack in Norway ???

what is going on ?

kv Skarpi


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 12:08 PM

Even if the man who did it was deranged, this was still pretty evidently a politically motivated terrorist act.


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 12:09 PM

Attacks sometimes have copycats. There are a lot of disaffected people there are there not? I think it is a reasonable precaution.


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 12:10 PM

He was politically active and the targets were political.


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 02:59 PM

That makes it terrorism, which is the slaughter of innocents for political reasons.

The attacks on the Marine barracks and on the USS Cole weren't terrorism. But it is looking as if these attacks were.

Sigh. We can do better.

And where on earth did he get the guns?


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 03:17 PM

The attack on the Marine barracks worked as terrorism it scared Ronny into running from Lebanon.


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 03:54 PM

"Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?"
What an appalling tragedy - and an appallingly bigotted title for a thread - sort of "non-Catholic case of child rape".
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 03:57 PM

I'm pretty sure Mrrzy's point was to point out the bigotry on another thread.


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: GUEST,Wolfgang momentarily without cookie
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 04:26 PM

how many of you assumed it was the islamofundies again?

I have, after the Oslo explosion. But the shooting on the island quickly looked different.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: GUEST,Wolfgang momentarily without cookie
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 04:41 PM

Never assume anything until, you have at least the minimum of facts. (McGrath)

Very good advice, but even much more information won't change some minds.
There are still those who think that Timothy McVeigh has colluded with Iraqis and that 9/11 was a Mossad or, your choice, American job.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 06:18 PM

Actually, JtS, they bombed the embassy *again* after the barracks, and *then* Ronny got out. Both embassy bombings before and after were terrorism and while the barrakcs bombing was part of the same campaign, strictly speaking it was an act of war rather than terrorism since it targeted troops.

This is only the second time, the first being Tim McVeigh et al., that I've been wrong when assuming Arabs were behind some bombing.

Oh, right, there was a third time, when it turned out to be an accident that a large airplane blew up, anybody remember spark possibilities in the cargo hold or something? Maybe a TWA flight? Probably in the 80's? I was only counting the ones that were other terrorists at first.


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 06:29 PM

Lutheran terrorists? mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 06:34 PM

What would gk do?


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 06:42 PM

This is only the second time, the first being Tim McVeigh et al., that I've been wrong when assuming Arabs were behind some bombing.

You're missing the Civil Rights struggle in the U.S, George Metesky, the Unabomber and dozens (hundreds?) of other examples worldwide.


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Lox
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 07:20 PM

Not to mention unreported attacks on innocent Moslems and Mosques in the US since 9/11.


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Rapparee
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 07:37 PM

One man could have done it, Skarpi. Put a timer on the bomb, go to the island, and it was 90 minutes before the police arrived after the shooting there started.

But where do you get automatic (i.e., machine gun type) weapons in Norway? It's difficult to get them in the US! Still, I suppose in this world anything is possible if you are willing to pay enough for it.

Unfortunately.


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 08:04 PM

These attacks were exceptionally well planned and coordinated requiring many different skills it is possible that one man could have done everything. But he would have to be some sort of DaVinci of Terrorism. It is more likely that he had help.


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Donuel
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 08:39 PM

The murderer's right wing Christian militia group is politically akin to the American Tea Party. Or so said by Norwegians.

He is thier McVeigh.


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: DrugCrazed
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 09:08 PM

a) Great thread title. Luckily, I read before I post so I won't make a snark comment about the Islam mention.
b) I'm still counting the hours until the mention of violent video games. Trust me, it'll happen.
c) I've not been following it closely, but I believe that this guy thought there was too much tolerance towards muslims. I'd love to know how this helped his cause.


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: MarkS
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 10:28 PM

What is the connection between the Norwegian Christian militia and the American Tea Party?

No agenda here, just seems to be a set of dots very hard to connect.


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Teribus
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 03:35 AM

"Non-Islamic Terrorist" is correct in as much as the terrorist was not a follower of Islam.

The man according to Norwegian reports is an extreme ring-wing Nationalist

His attack was not directed at any religious group but at a Norwegian Political party and I suspect that he was trying to take out the "leadership" of that party as well as striking at the "next generation" of Arbeiderpartiet.


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 04:17 AM

He has referred to his "martyrdom operation" in imitation of Islamic terror.


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Musket
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 04:23 AM

Poor shallow buggers won't know who to hate for being different now. Except this one was blonde, European and claims to be a Christian.

The fact that his disturbed mind amplified his political rather than religious stance seems to have been missed by many of the tabloids.

Must admit, calling a thread non - Islamic terrorist doesn't sit well, regardless of the explanation in the OP. Non Irish? Non Red Faction???


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Lox
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 05:52 AM

Only Keith could fins a form of Logic that found Islam responsible in some way for the actions of a Moslem hater.

The pope is Moslem and bears like to face mecca while they make proper use of private toilet facilities.


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 08:02 AM

"Only Keith could fins a form of Logic that found Islam responsible in some way for the actions of a Moslem hater."
These events certainly drag them out of the woodwork, don't they?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: GUEST,Jayto
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 08:19 AM

It is never "just one man". Even if physically one person did manage to pull this off then you have an Army of people that influenced his views and opinions. Somebody along the line influenced this man to become militant. Somebody wrote a book or article that lead him down this path. There are far more people at work than just this one man. Like I said even if it was just him that executed the action.


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 08:25 AM

Jim and Lox, lay off the argumentative personal attacks please.
In his pre-attack video he talks of "embracing martyrdom", and previously,"He also claims to have bought three bottles of 1979 vintage French wine, and decides to open one with his family at Christmas as his "martyrdom operation draws ever closer".
That is quite relevant to any discussion of this crime.


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 10:10 AM

What is the connection between the Norwegian Christian militia and the American Tea Party?

The TeaBaggers are largely fundagelical Christians[sic], virulently anti-Muslim (and somewhat unbalanced; remember Obama being a secret Muslim who was going to impose Sharia law?), anti-Immigrant, & anti-government.

Also, they terrorize people by showing up at public meetings waving loaded guns. They just havent used them....yet.

Sounds like a connection to me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 10:24 AM

"Jim and Lox, lay off the argumentative personal attacks please."
"Personal attacks" refuge again Keith.
You are attempting to use the murder of 90odd people by a fundamentalist Christian to implicate Muslims.
Like Lox, I thought even you couldn't use this as part of your mission - forgot your dedication to the cause.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Teribus
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 11:09 AM

1: "He has referred to his "martyrdom operation" in imitation of Islamic terror." - Keith A

2: "Only Keith could fins a form of Logic that found Islam responsible in some way for the actions of a Moslem hater." - Lox

I read and understand 1: but can see no connection or logic for the jump that Lox makes in stating 2:

Observation:
Apart from Islamic fundamantalist terrorist organisations, what other terrorist group or groups refer to any of their attacks as "martyrdom operations"? And to point out the glaringly obvious, as the man responsible is in custody having given himself up to armed police officers on Uteoya this was no "martyrdom operation" at all.


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 11:20 AM

"He has referred to his "martyrdom operation" in imitation of Islamic terror. "

Keith, please clarify this, I thought you were saying that the killer was concerned with imitating what he called "Islamic terror." I did not think that you were in any way trying to imply that Islamic terror was any different from any other kind of "terror." Is this so?


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 11:34 AM

>"Apart from Islamic fundamantalist terrorist organisations, what other terrorist group or groups refer to any of their attacks as "martyrdom operations"?"

The murder of George Tiller for one by members of Operation Rescue.
Also, Tim McVeigh. The idea that this must be Islamic is a tinfoil hat idea.

The newspapereze label of "martyrdom operation" is a term immediately to be distrusted
as identifying anything of importance.

There are many Xtian terrorist paramilitary and skinhead groups in the U.S. that would use the term "martydom" for their cause.


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 12:10 PM

Plenty of examples of "suicide missions" in the wars of the last century, and before. Any number of tributes to soldiers who were killed "laying down their lives", or to their "sacrifice".

Of course the thing about this guy is that it wasn't a suicide mission in any sense - as soon as the armed police came up, he put down his weapons and surrendered.


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Rapparee
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 12:14 PM

You needn't be Muslim to be a terrorist.


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 12:16 PM

GregF, in those, instances, I hadn't assumed it was the islamofundies the way I did with the ones I listed under "times I was wrong when I assumed it was the islamofundies" (or some such).

I remember a conversation after the 1st bombing of the World Trade Center, when a Palistinian friend of mine said I shouldn't make such an assumption and I asked well, who bombs Americans? The only other terrorists are the IRA, who don't bite the hand that feeds, and the Basque, who are after the French (if they're Spanish) or the Spanish (if they're French) (or maybe it's the other way around) but at any rate it wasn't them either. And I was right, that time.

Now, who would bomb inoffensive beautiful open-minded Norway? Apparently, a narrow-minded Norwegian, but it wasn't an attack against the *nation* the way the attacks on US embassies and landmarks were. Or not?


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 12:19 PM

I think Teribus has it about right. To start with, the guy must have been seriously deranged to perpetrate such an atrocity.

Secondly he appears to be an extreme Nationalist who has been driven over the edge by the policies of the Norwegian govt.
(Please dont try to mis-represent that statement)

As western economies worsen and living standards, pension rights, public services come under further attack,expect to see a backlash against the policies pursued by goverments in Western Europe over the last couple of decades.

Perhaps we may yet see Mr Powells "rivers of blood".....I certainly hope not, but action needs to be taken now to reverse some of the policies which have created the "time bomb"


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 12:34 PM

"I certainly hope not, but action needs to be taken now to reverse some of the policies which have created the "time bomb"
Not a lot of room to "mis-represent this statement" - do what the killer wants or somebody else will carry out another massacre - aka submitting to the demands of a fascist madman.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 12:51 PM

...and I asked well, who bombs Americans?

Obviously, and primarily, other Americans.


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 01:04 PM

"I asked well, who bombs Americans?"

Strange how it appears that Timothy McVeigh seems to have drifted out of the consciousness of Mrrzy - and many others.


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: SINSULL
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 01:06 PM

Some info on Norway's gun laws:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jul/24/norway-strict-gun-laws-circumvented

One of the early reports yesterdaystated that at least two of thenguns used in the massacre were legally registered to the killer.


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Rapparee
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 01:19 PM

As I have said, you can obtain any weapon you want IF you are willing to pay the price (and I'm not just talking about money). Britain has strict gun laws, and yet there is gun violence, with many of the arms apparently coming in from former Soviet Bloc countries. Russia and China, Canada, Australia, Germany, South Korea....

Please do not consider this to be anything but a simple statement of fact.


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 01:34 PM

"You are attempting to use the murder of 90odd people by a fundamentalist Christian to implicate Muslims."

Implicate Muslims?
I did no such thing.
A groundless attack for personal reasons.
You may not value your Mudcat membership, but I do.

Suicide missions are not unique to Islamic terror.
They were used for instance by the Tamil Tigers in Sri Lanka.
The phrase "martyrdom operation" is part of the Islamists vocabulary that he, for his own twisted reasons, has consciously copied.

This act of terror was perpetrated by a lone psychopath.
I am just trying to get my head around what drives him.

I read that 21 years is the maximum tariff under Nowegian law.
Less than 3 months for each murder.


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 01:49 PM

Strange how it appears that Timothy McVeigh seems to have drifted out of the consciousness of Mrrzy - and many others.

If it were only McVeigh, that would be one thing. But its not.

Were one to total up the number of times bombs have exploded on U.S soil 99% of the incidents would have been perpetrated by Americans.

One would also likely find that the number killed and maimed by home-grown bombers exceeds by a LARGE margin those Americans killed & maimed by McVeigh and al-Qaeda combined.


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 02:12 PM

Maybe "not alot of room" Jim, but you seem to have managed it quite comfortably......congratulations.


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 02:17 PM

I know that some of the better informed on Mudcat are aware of what has been happening in the Scandinavian countries over the last few years.......they obviously don't include Jim.


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 02:42 PM

These are the actions which often occur when a people lose their voice, or are unable to make their feelings known.

Example the use of words like racist, homophobe, bigot here on Mudcat to shut down debate.....and most here are reasonable, intelligent, sane.
How do the less literate come to terms with these problems?

There are great numbers of people in our society and in the US who disagree strongly with the policies of parties which are to all intents and purposes indistiguishable from one another.

For years they have been ramming through poisonous policies against which the ordinary folk have no redress.

Example..a couple of years ago anyone who suggested a cap on immigration here was branded a racist and a bigot.....now this has been accepted by every party as necessary.

We now need to tackle the failed notion of "multiculturalism" along with many other social idiocies.


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 03:00 PM

This wasn't reactive violence by beaten down people who haven't a voice, or anything like that. This was cold-blooded terrorist violence by a rich and privileged young man with a Nazi mindset.


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Rapparee
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 03:04 PM

Indeed it was, McGrath.


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: BTNG
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 03:11 PM

Example the use of words like racist, homophobe, bigot here on Mudcat to shut down debate.....and most here are reasonable, intelligent, sane.
How do the less literate come to terms with these problems?

- akenaton

after reading this I was reminded of the amazingly funny line from the sorely missed Douglas Adams, those of you familiar with his work will know from whence it comes

"A big hello to all intelligent life everywhere in the universe, and for the rest of you, just keep banging those rocks together."

I can hear Douglas Adams laughing


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 03:25 PM

I agree Mr McGrath... but I was addressing what I think is yet to come.

Do you not think that there is a large section of society which has become disconnected from government?


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 03:26 PM

"These are the actions which often occur when a people lose their voice, or are unable to make their feelings known."
So there we have it - a hard-done-by Nazi unable to give voice to his feelings and multiculturalism - that's what slaughtered 90 odd people.
We should give the Nazis their voice and send all the foreigners home - pretty well in line with what you've argued in the past.
These killings were done by a white, Christian, Fascist thug protesting against the multiculturalism you appear to be objecting to
Keith;
You linked this obscenity with the Muslim culture you have spent so much time attacking of late "in imitation of Islamic terror" - why on earth was I surprised that you would use the massacre of 90 odd (mainly young) people as part of your anti- Muslim agenda.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Lox
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 03:29 PM

"Jim and Lox, lay off the argumentative personal attacks please."

Quote the personal attack or publicly withdraw your groundless assertion and apologize for telling lies about other mudcatters.


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 03:59 PM

Lox,
"Only Keith could fins a form of Logic that found Islam responsible in some way for the actions of a Moslem hater."

An attack on me personally by name.Not anything I actually said.

Jim,
"You linked this obscenity with the Muslim culture (NO I DID NOT)you have spent so much time attacking of late (I HAVE NEVER DONE ANY SUCH THING"

That is nasty, personal and untrue.


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 04:17 PM

Jim.. I have already stated that I think the guy was unhinged.

I am not supporting or excusing the crime

But to box this up as simple right-wing Muslim hating might be convenient for you , but does not make sense.
If that were the case he would surely have selected Muslim young people to massacre?

The malaise goes much deeper I think.


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 04:20 PM

yep- keep bangin them rocks together Kieth & Ake.


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Teribus
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 04:30 PM

Spot on Keith.


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 04:32 PM

I'd agree with Keith on that.

The comment of his which led to this spat was He has referred to his "martyrdom operation" in imitation of Islamic terror. This was an accurate statement, referring to the fact that Breivik deliberately used that term, and clearly took it from a jihadist context.

I certainly didn't read it as suggesting that Breivik modelled his actions on any Islamist. His actual atrocity bore little resemblance to even the nastiest jihadist atrocity - and of course he made a point of ensuring that he did not die, either by killing himself or dying in a shoot out. Just laid down his guns as soon as an armed policeman came in sight.


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Teribus
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 04:42 PM

Norwegian Gun Laws:

- You are entitled to own up to eight guns, unless you are a registered collector.

- You are not allowed to own Automatic weapons that are fully automatic

- Guns owned must be for your own personal use (Hunting, Target/Competition Shooting)

- Extremely difficult to own two guns of the same calibre unless you have an extremely good reason (Elg 375 - 308; Red Deer 308 - 243; Roe Deer 243)

- No-one actually knows how many guns are in circulation in Norway because of what happened at the end of the Second World War (Masses of German weapons were "liberated) Up until about twenty years ago shotguns did not have to be licenced they reckon that there are about 500,000 of those weapons lying about off the Police registers.

Rapparee was perfectly correct in what he stated with regard to getting your hands on any type of gun that you want illegally. The villans always manage to get their hands on them and their principle sources of supply are not weapons stolen from owners who hold them legally.


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: GUEST,Voltaire
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 12:26 AM

If you keep the lid screwed down the kettle will sometimes explode.
Some percentage of Norway's population is unhappy with the demographic changes that have occurred in recent decades.
If political correctness prevents expression of opinion then even some moderates will be attracted towards the extreme right.

(ducks for cover)


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 12:39 AM

The percentage of the population you speak of Voltaire is quite high. Reported on BBC this morning Breivik is expected to plead "Not Guilty" - If that is so the man obviously wants his day in court. As will all terrorists he could have achieved objective that without taking a single life.


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 01:27 AM

Stringsinger

I asked what terrorist groups apart from islamic fundamentalist ones use that description for their attacks - NOT who would or who might.

George Tiller? - did those carrying out the attack kill themselves?
McVeigh did not die in the attack he did his damndest to evade capture and live. So neither were "Martyrdom operations".


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 03:51 AM

"I am not supporting or excusing the crime"
No you're not - you are doing something worse. You are suggesting that he, and others, have cause for complaint multuculturalism and immigration, and you appear to be sympathysing with that racicist cause - no surprise there- as does Voltaire.
"If that were the case he would surely have selected Muslim young people to massacre"
He is, as you said yourself, unhinged - as far as I'm concerned all racists are irrational - I don't expect any reason in their behaviour - he seeks attention for his cause.
What this incident proves beyond doubt is that acts of terrorism are not confined to one race or religion
Keith - you and you alone have made these discussions 'personal' - those of us who have found your racist and homophobic arguments offensive have attacked what you have said, not you. You have slithered behind a "personal attack" defense each time - defend your repulsive ideas and don't try and hide from their consequences.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 04:09 AM

Jim,you are entitled to hold your opinions of me, wrong though they are.
You are NOT entitled to pollute this forum with your wrong opinions of me as a person.
It is specifically against the rules of Mudcat.
The Vols have enough to deal with just now or I would ask for it to be deleted again.

To be clear, I am no racist, have never expressed a racist opinion or made a racist statement here or anywhere.
You have been asked many times to produce such, but you can not because you are wrong.


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 04:12 AM

OR homophobic!


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: GUEST,Voltaire
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 04:14 AM

" you appear to be sympathysing with that racicist cause - no surprise there- as does Voltaire"

Oh, the irony!


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 04:27 AM

Sorry - should have written Islamophobic - confusing it with another of Ake's little weaknesses, though I have no doubt he would fit that in if he could.
Once again, no opinion offered of you as a person - just your repulsively racist ideas, but I suppose your persisting in making it "personal" saves you the trouble of acknowleging those ideas.
Notice the Times makes a British fanatics connection to the killings this morning.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Lox
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 04:31 AM

Nope - No personal attack.

A personal attack is one where a person is attacked on personal grounds.


If Keith can't show what personal grounds he has been attacked on then there is no personal attack.


So Keith, quote it or retract it.


Keith operates on the basis of insinuation. This is very clear.


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: GUEST,Voltaire
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 04:31 AM

Anders Behring Breivik - A European Declaration of Independence

"The ideology that has taken over Western Europe goes most commonly by the name of "Political Correctness." Some people see it as a joke. It is not. It is deadly serious. It seeks to alter virtually all the rules, formal and informal, that govern relations among people and institutions. It wants to change behaviour, thought, even the words we use."

Voltaire - I disapprove of what you say, so shut up you racist homophobic bastard.


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Lox
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 05:03 AM

Good Article.

Charlie Brooker

.


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 05:22 AM

Jim and Lox,
"no opinion offered of you as a person - just your repulsively racist ideas,"

I have never expressed a "repulsively racist idea," or you would be able to produce it.
Instead of challenging anything I actually say, you attack me personally.
You call me nasty names like racist.
That is nasty, personal and false.
It is also against the rules of our forum.


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Lox
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 06:07 AM

"Jim and Lox,
"no opinion offered of you as a person - just your repulsively racist ideas,""

You have attributed this post to 2 people.

And failed to provide evidence of a personal attack from me.


This is misleading.


Correct it or characterize yourself as wilfully dishonest.


Still personal attack quoted as requested.

Just a false assertion.


2 counts of dishonesty.


Will you be correcting this or compounding it with further dishonesty?


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Lox
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 06:08 AM

"Still personal attack quoted as requested."

should read:

Still no personal attack quoted as requested.


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 06:34 AM

One thing this guy has done is take the heat off the Murdochs. They must be thinking all their birthdays have come at once.

You would almost wonder............

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 06:34 AM

Lox, you have wisely distanced yourself from Jim's post.
I provided evidence of your personal attack yesterday 24 Jul 11 - 03:59 PM


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Lox
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 06:36 AM

EDL Blame Norwegian immigration policy for the recent massacre.


link here


Interesting parallel with the views expressed by some mudcatters


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Lox
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 06:41 AM

"I provided evidence of your personal attack yesterday 24 Jul 11 - 03:59 PM "

No you didn't.

A personal attack is an attack on somebody based on personal grounds.

You on the other hand have lied about me twice in the space of about 5 posts.


Do you retract you lies or do you wish to define yourself by them?


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 06:48 AM

Lox,I think you are being unfair to Keith. I don't think he said what you originally accused him of. I think you made an honest mistake though. You both sre taking this too far.


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 06:53 AM

Lox, I believe you do have personal grounds to attack me, but I refer to attacking me as opposed to one my posts.
"It is just like Keith to" is saying something about me personally.
Also, I did not say what you claimed it was just like me to say, and it would be totally unlike me to say such a thing.
Your post was a dishonest smear.


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 06:55 AM

Thank you Jack, but they have done this before and more than once.


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Lox
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 06:57 AM

Jack,


Keith says I made a personal attack.

Can you find it?


He also attributed a quote to me that I did not write.


Will he be acknowledging his 'mistakes' or reasserting them?


Let him make his own bed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Lox
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 06:59 AM

""It is just like Keith to" is saying something about me personally."


Where have I written "its just like keith"?


Fabrication number 3


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Lox
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 07:06 AM

This determination to play the poor smeared victim, combined with fabricated quotes and false accusations is clearly a cynical attempt to draw the attention of the mods.

Unfortunately for Keith it is clearly unsupported.

I will therefore withdraw and let him furnish the hole he has dug exactly how he pleases.


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 07:18 AM

"Only Keith could fins a form of Logic that found Islam responsible in some way for the actions of a Moslem hater."

These were your actual words, Lox. Not the exact "just like Keith" words you deny, but "only Keith" surely near enough to cite from memory. Calling it 'a fabrication' is just typical of your usual twisted argumentations.

Just like Lox to evade the issue on the foolish technicality of a slight misrecollection of what he actually said: but then that's old Foxiloxy back, to the life as ever was.

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 07:42 AM

Correction to previous post.

Lox, I believe you do have personal grounds to attack me, but I refer to attacking me as opposed to one my posts.
"Only Keith could" is saying something about me personally.
Also, I did not say what you claimed only I could say, and it would be totally unlike me to say such a thing.
Your post was a dishonest smear.

Off you go then Lox.


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 07:59 AM

Lox, I said that he had not said what you said he said that that you both were taking this too far.

Think about it. Wasn't that correct?


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 09:14 AM

This is a daft squabble, which feels rather disrespectful to the awful thing that has happened.

I'd suggest that a little lip-buttoning would be a good idea.


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 09:42 AM

Sorry Kevin, and thanks for what you said earlier, but I have been subjected to this same attack as soon as I contributed to other threads before this one.
If it stops now I will say no more.

The solicitor said that he surrendered when out of ammunition, but it is now said he did not run out.
Having see close up the effects of bullets on flesh he chose a different outcome for himself.
He described what he did as "gruesome but necessary."
He seems to have no human empathy with victims or awareness of suffering.
Are these indicative of psychopathy?


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 09:53 AM

They're indicative of a form of insanity. And I don't mean in the "legal" sense, necessarily. I mean in the actual sense, legal interpretations quite aside. You don't go and shoot a whole bunch of strangers over some political notion unless you're experiencing some form of insanity.


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 10:08 AM

Quite right Mr McGrath, but this little squabble is in a strange way relevent to the horrors which have taken place in Norway.

See how Lox and Jim leap to the defence of their ideology....always determined to shut down debate.
When this is perpetrated on a larger scale.....when government policy is forced upon a nation without any attempt to determine what the people of that nation actually feel and discussion proscribed by bullying and misrepresentation, symptoms like the crimes committed in Norway occur

Over the past few years there has been a rise in Scandinavian Nationalism.....they have a powerful sense of their history and culture. Lately the massive influx of Muslim immigrants has caused much disquiet amongst Danes, Swedes and Norwegians.

These immigrants have been encouraged into Scandinavia for the same reasons that they were encouraged into the UK....purely economic...cheap labour...nothing to do with equality or democracy
but like most government policy, it has caused more problems than it solved.

The crimes in Norway were the actions of a madman it proves nothing politically....there are as many on the left as on the right who saw the stupidity of unregulated immigration and we have watched "multiculturalism" fail for decades.

We need to start listening to the majority of our citizens who feel completey disenfranchised by the sort of legislation which is being formulated by successive "liberal" governments.

I we do not we can look forward to riots and battles for years to come.
Resulting of course in a "liberal" fascist police state.


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 10:09 AM

"If it stops now I will say no more."

I think you are missing the point.
Is there a point in YOU continuing even if others do?


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Mayet
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 10:14 AM

akenaton said

and I agree wholeheartedly.

A wave of extreme anti Muslim sentiment has been beginning to take hold in Northern Europe. In Holland Geert Wilders and his Party for Freedom, came out vociferously against immigration, and specifically Muslim immigration claiming that, if the Dutch didn't wake up, Sharia law would take over the country. Wilders is quoted as stating that moderate Muslims do not exist and that Islam is evil.

Jimmie Åkesson, of the Sweden Democrats party went on to describe Islam as Sweden's biggest national security threat since the Second World War.
An English language Swedish newspaper reported "I do not equate this reformed Nazi party…with anti-Semitism per se. It's that Swedish brand of Nazism which is more about preserving the traditions and strength of the white Nordic race than about wanting to crack the skulls of Jews."

It is now revealed that an unclassified document published by Norway's Police Security Service in February had warned of rising activity in far-right and anti-Muslim extremist groups and described a picture of "increased uncertainty"
It also said far-right groups in Norway had established links to others in Scandinavia and Russia as well as with far-right extremist groups in Europe
Anders Behrin Breivik (or Andrew Berwick as he termed himself on the internet) claimed to have links with a known anti Muslim far right activist group in the UK

Kari Helene Partapuoli, director of the non-governmental Norwegian Centre against Racism has said that the rhetoric on immigration and Islam in Norway has become harder in some fringe groups,
Anders Behrin Breivik may have been deluded to believe he could kick start the revolution in Norway but mad? His choice of victims was not random - read his 1500page 'manifesto' !

it's a liberal conspiracy


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Mayet
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 10:16 AM

for some reason my quote from akenaton didn't appear

"I know that some of the better informed on Mudcat are aware of what has been happening in the Scandinavian countries over the last few years"

Exactly! The 'better informed' do


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 10:33 AM

Jack, if established members accused you of being a racist, and of making racists posts, would you just let it go or defend yoursef?
Thanks again for what you said earlier.
keith.


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Musket
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 10:38 AM

So akenaton reckons governments should listen to those who feel disenfranchised by recent policies?

Many Muslims feel disenfranchised, have since the '50s felt it better to have their separate communities because other British people point and stare when they have tried to integrate.

If multiculturalism has failed, how do you think we should all live? Prevent people from refraining from pork? Force people to be Christians? Lock people up for using community elders to arbitrate on domestic matters? Make it an offence to be teetotal? Prevent women from wearing headgear if there is any whiff of it being "cultural?"

We are a multicultural society, you prat. Always have been and always will be. The Britishness of Rupert the Bear comic strips has never existed (alright, maybe in Godalming) and London has been a melting pot for over a thousand years.

Failure to integrate is a two way street. If people won't integrate and assimilate, think about why not rather than saying accommodating people has failed.

Hope you enjoy your riots and battles, luckily they will be enacted in your mind not on the street. Now please be quiet whilst the grown ups discuss realistic reactions and solutions to this despicable type of criminal act.


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 10:47 AM

"Jack, if established members accused you of being a racist, and of making racists posts, would you just let it go or defend yoursef?"

Many, have done so, many times. I have learned to respond clearly to the allegation, maybe repeat that to be perfectly clear, then, usually, I quit responding.

But again, you miss the point.

McGrath said this.

"This is a daft squabble, which feels rather disrespectful to the awful thing that has happened.
I'd suggest that a little lip-buttoning would be a good idea."

You said,

"quite right."

If you agree that it is a "daft squabble", and "disrespectful" why continue under any conditions.

Are you "daft"?
Are you purposely "disrespectful?"
Do you LIKE to "squabble?"


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 11:09 AM

"Now please be quiet whilst the grown ups discuss realistic reactions and solutions to this despicable type of criminal act".

Are you a "grown up" Ian?....you dont sound particularly grown up, but i'll await with interest your "solutions"

I've seen many "reactions" to these problems, but precious few "solutions"


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 11:11 AM

It was a horrific thing to happen to innocent people whoever was responsible. Ever so often even in the UK we have an incident where someone does something like this for whatever reason but it is always about an obsessive thought in that individual's mind. The difference is that often the end result is that the gunman is shot either self inflicted or by a trained marksman. The gunman in Norway allowed himself to be captured to stand trial because he believes himself to be right. That is the frightening thing. Richard Murdoch did cross my mind more like he was kicking himself for not getting the scoop on the two big stories happening over the weekend.


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 11:12 AM

The only "solution" is to learn from the tragedy and not to overreact.

In other words, the polar opposite of Bush's approach to 9/11.


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 11:14 AM

Jack, it may look daft from the outside, but inside is not a nice place.
They claim I have made racist posts just to discredit me.
All I have done is to demand they produce those posts.


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 11:16 AM

I agree with that Jack.


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 11:20 AM

"All I have done is to demand they produce those posts. "

Doing that once is fine. Every other time, was daft and disrespectful.


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Penny S.
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 11:21 AM

Can we get back to the actual news?

I found it odd that he was listed on Facebook as single (this is relevant, believe me) since he comes across as pretty goodlooking (though I gather he favours professional Photoshopping). I suspect World of Warcraft and his other favourite multiple user game, together with the penchant for uniforms, might have something to do with it. As might his use of artificial testosterone, though this might be a result of not attracting women. But this set me off on a historical parallel.

Back in the years before the Norman Conquest, there was a trading settlement of Scandinavians in London, much resented by the locals for bringing their terrible multicultural habits to corrupt the local Engish. The local men went to appeal to King Ethelred to ask that he control immigration (yes, that King Ethelred, the unready ill-advised one), and he decided that he would solve the problem by massacring the newcomers across the country. So on St Brice's Day there was a concerted attack at Viking settlements across the country, including not only men but also women. One of the victims of the St Brice's Day Massacre was the sister of the king of Denmark, which is why Ethelred was soon old news. And what was the particular complaint about the London Scandinavians? On Saturday nights, to get ready for church the next day, they had baths (I imagine of the sauna type, but who knows). As a consequence, on Sunday, the local girls found them much more attractive than the local Mercian youth, to whom a massacre seemed the most obvious solution.

Breivik has, in his writings, held forth on the way that women are not as compliant and obedient, not as devoted to bringing up children as they should be. I suspect that his failure to find someone to put up with his attitude and lack of empathy was at least contributary to his selection of girls as his first choice of victim, as well as his view that killing the defenceless was more appropriate than risking death by taking on the more capable of fighting back. His attitude to divorce is curious, as he attributed it entirely to women leaving their husbands, where his own family was broken by the father leaving while he was only one, and he was brought up in a female environment with his mother and sisters.

I wouldn't want to say that a sense of failing as a man was the entire cause - he obviously has worked very hard to plagiarise the views of the Unabomber and find documentary support for his anti-Muslim views, and clearly has intelligence which he has applied to his purposes. Unfortunately, he never applied that intelligence to the likelihood of people not following his gruesome and wholly unnecessary actions. I'm not sure of the legal definition of sanity, but not living in the real world, and not recognising the lives he took as being of equal value to his, with as much right for their voices to be heard as his would look like not being open to a definition as not mad.

I don't know how society can identify these distorted souls and make sure that they do not have access to anything they can use for mass killing, or even single killing. Fiordman, though keen not to be confused with Breivik, and his followers, seem just as creepy.

Penny


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 11:40 AM

I'm not sure how that is actual news. But is is a better topic of discussion.


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Subject: Donuel BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 11:57 AM

Poster appears to be Donuel

The new nazi nationalist parties are capturing between 10 to 20% of the votes in Norway, Italy and some other European countries.

Not to sound uncaring but shooting large numbers of boys and girls is merely the extreme example of staunch competitive selfishness which is the foundation of most right wing political movements.

The US version of these groups are growing bolder by attending Political rallies and presidential speeches, openly carrying automated assault weapons.

So far they are saying we are capable...
eventually they will say even more.

Bekieve me, huge corporations can live with these people.


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 11:59 AM

Donuel BS?

LOL!


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Musket
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 12:19 PM

Sorry Akenaton, but I am confused.

You stir hatred by denouncing multiculturism as if it could go away, then seem to agree with Jack in saying nobody should overreact.

Completely threw me, that did. I do have a solution you see, and that is not to overreact. Don't give the oxygen of publicity to those who would have an aparthied world, stop pandering to anybody who wants any segregation (and yes, that does work both ways) and most of all, stop promoting distrust.

All a bit airy fairy I grant you. But as there is no magic wand to dealing with crime. Marginalising idiots does at least slow down the adoption of their views and, tragically, their actions.

Europe is supposedly based on a set of equality ideals. Black, white, ginger, brown, blonde hair, brunette, gay, straight, religious, rational, football fan, tennis watcher, folk singer, rap artist.

The alternative to this multi culture? Every bugger has to look like me, think like me and act like me. Sod that for a lark.


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Lox
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 03:51 PM

Interesting that Ake, A Scot, Living in the United Kingdom of England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, and recognized internationally as a British citizen, should take such a clear position on multiculturalism.


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 04:02 PM

You've got to be taught
To hate and fear,
You've got to be taught
From year to year,
It's got to be drummed
In your dear little ear
You've got to be carefully taught.

You've got to be taught to be afraid
Of people whose eyes are oddly made,
And people whose skin is a diff'rent shade,
You've got to be carefully taught.

You've got to be taught before it's too late,
Before you are six or seven or eight,
To hate all the people your relatives hate,
You've got to be carefully taught!

--------

Song is probably a big hit with Fiordman & Breivik and soon to be the Republican campagin song for the 2012 election in the US.


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 04:05 PM

Interesting solution Ian....in fact, so original that I suggest that you mosey over to Egypt, Pakistan, Nigeria, Ivory Coast etc and explain it to the Christians who are being killed and mutilated daily by Muslims.

There is no doubt in my mind that the rulers of Islam are well aware that the battle against "Western values" is a battle to the death, for capitulation and the adoption of those values of so called democracy and equality will see the end of their religion, just as they will, in all probability, destroy the Christian religion.

Multiculturalism has never worked, because cultures need lots of time to evolve.....your old red herring that the UK has always been "multicultural" does not work....it took many hundreds perhaps thousands of years, for the races to evolve into what is now the UK.
Pakistanis Indians, Eastern Europeans, have been transplanted here and in Scandinavia, in the space of a decade....there has been no evolution.....they are economic migrants,pure and simple

Blame lies on the policies of successive "liberal" governments.


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 05:14 PM

Multiculturalism is a word that means different things in different mouths, and that is as true when people are saying they are in favour as when they say they are opposed.

It can be used to mean a society in which people from different backgrounds and cultures mix with each other while holding on to all kinds of differences bases in their different origins - differences in dress, language, food, music.

And it can be used to mean a society in which people from different backgrounds and cultures live in such a way that they avoid contact with each other.

The confusion arises when people throw the word around without defining what they mean by it. Sometimes this is intentional, not always.


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Donuel
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 05:18 PM

Greg, Matty Potempkin did a great version of carefully taught and it ain;t nessisarily so.


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 11:08 PM

"I asked well, who bombs Americans?" Strange how it appears that Timothy McVeigh seems to have drifted out of the consciousness of Mrrzy - and many others.

McGrath, dear, I asked that question in 1993. In 1993, 1995 hadn't happened yet.


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Lox
Date: 26 Jul 11 - 12:17 AM

Psychopathic White Supremacists have been murdering people in vast numbers for hundreds of years.

Why should this ones actions suddenly be 'explainable' by bad immigration policies?


Interestingly, that 'explanation' has been doing the rounds for longer than I can remember too.


But if you repackage it as somehow 'insightful', and if you have a blind spot the size of australia, you can pretend that history is taking a new twist.


It worries me that this guy may become a bit of a folk hero among the extreme right and there may be copycat attacks.


Anyone who doubts how tough the struggle against right wing ideas is should check this out.


Muslamic Ray Guns ...


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Musket
Date: 26 Jul 11 - 04:12 AM

I got as far as "leaders of Islam" and remembered something about false idols, or to put it another way, there are no leaders of Islam, no equivalent to the Pope or Archbishop of Canterbury.

Just to give Akenaton the benefit of the doubt, I struggled on till I came to the bit about economic migrants being a new phenomenon, then smiled, shut down the computer and went as ever to the pub where the illogical spouting of bollocks at least has benefit of making you realise what the Daily M*il has been printing that morning...

I know this is an international site, so sometimes you have to point out where you live in case the other person thinks you mean where they live. I live in The UK, where do you live Akenaton? Other than in your own head? If you ever visit The UK, you will see how a melting pot over the millennia gives us a multicultural society that works, and for the vast majority, works well.

Sorry, but this pure hate and twisting of facts is rather nauseating.


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Jul 11 - 04:26 AM

If you live in the UK I am surprised that you are not aware that the recent unprecedented levels of migration have become a main stream issue for all the political parties, but this thread is not the place to discuss it.
Breivik committed an inconceivably horrific act of mass murder, as others have before him.
Each were driven by some issue or other.
Rational concern and debate about serious issues has nothing to do with an individual going bezerk because he supported one side or the other, and they should never become part of the debate.


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: GUEST,English Martyr
Date: 26 Jul 11 - 04:38 AM

" the recent unprecedented levels of migration have become a main stream (sic) issue for all the political parties"

Not so. Care to show where e.g. the LibDems and the Labour parties have demonstrated immigration as a mainstream issue?

I believe you will find that, in the UK, the issue of immigration is a hobby horse of the far-right parties such as UKIP, EDL, BNP, etc.

As you live in the UK I am sure you will know this to be the case.


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 26 Jul 11 - 05:08 AM

--Care to show where e.g. the LibDems and the Labour parties have demonstrated immigration as a mainstream issue?--

From the Lib·Dem manifesto -

"But since the Tories and Labour abolished exit checks in the 1990s, we have no way of knowing how many illegal immigrants live here.
Liberal Democrats want an immigration system that works. A system that is firm but fair, which plans for the effects of managed legal migration and promotes integration. We believe in the benefits that immigration has brought this country but we do not believe our borders should be a soft touch.
Liberal Democrats would take control of our borders and immediately reintroduce entry and exit checks. Our National Border Force would have the power of arrest."
,,,,,,

From 2010 Labour manifesto--

"Controlled migration brings undoubted benefits to our country but we also recognise people's legitimate concerns about the impact it can have on communities. Net inward migration to Britain as measured by the Office for National Statistics has fallen for the last three years. We are delivering the biggest changes to our immigration, citizenship and border security systems for decades – we are bringing in a new Australian-style points-based immigration system which allows us to be more selective so that only those with the skills that we need to build a stronger economy can come here, and to ensure that as growth returns, we will see rising levels of employment, skills and wages not more immigration."

Satisfied, English Martyr?


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Musket
Date: 26 Jul 11 - 05:52 AM

Yes, we do have an immediate (rather than chronic) issue with immigration. I doubt anybody thinks we have the space and resource for unchecked immigration.

However, despite the huge numbers over recent years, many come with a work ethic, which makes them contributors rather than recipients of what our society can offer. Many reading will be old enough to recall when we didn't have enough people for all the jobs and encouraged a mass immigration from The West Indies, mainly to carry out the jobs others wouldn't do. Now, it is a little too far in the other direction.

Immigration is an issue for political parties, but I would contend it is less of a problem for each individual community. I suppose with both my wife and I being involved in healthcare, our experiences reflect our "circle" of friends, but a BBQ we are hosting next weekend has, to my knowledge families originating from at least seven different countries. And you know what? They are all British, pay huge amounts of tax and contribute to their chosen place of residence.

Funny that where I used to live, I would walk into town and see where the social services and social security budget is spent. Their party piece being able to push a push chair and light a fag at the same time. The only area free of them is the area around the job centre.

If I were prejudiced enough to value people by where they were born and how they look, these would be my fellow citizens.


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Jul 11 - 06:29 AM

That is my experience too Ian.
Our schools are producing large numbers of unemployable youth, and employers understandably take on the cheapest and best available, but this situation is unsustainable.
There is a thread, "UK immigration too high?" or a new one could be started.


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: GUEST,English Martyr
Date: 26 Jul 11 - 06:44 AM

"Satisfied, English Martyr?"

Nope. Not in the least satisfied by your response. It does not offer a defence that the major UK parties have adopted an anti-immigration platform as a main stream (sic) policy position. Nor does it even suggest that recent levels of immigration are "unprecedented" as Keith A of Hertford has stated above. That particular canard is regularly wheeled out by the extreme right. You know, those people who espouse virulent racist viewpoints.

The reality is that mainstream parties have had to address the fact that , as Ian Mather points out, there was/ is a serious flaw in the benefits system, how it is managed and how points are awarded etc. I do not believe anyone has argued that there is a need to stop the abuse of the benefits system be that by indigenous people or by people coming t his country legally or illegally. However, there is a major leap from that position to one where the blame for society's problems can be laid at the door of immigrants.

To reiterate, recent levels of immigration are not "unprecedented" as claimed. Compare the statement from the Labour 2010 manifesto ... "..Net inward migration to Britain as measured by the Office for National Statistics has fallen for the last three years....".   What the Lib Dems and Labour are saying is that there needs to be a managed process which will ensure that those coming in have the skills necessary to plug gaps in the areas of economic activity where we are currently lacking and that a system should be put in place which ensures that immigration is managed in a way which promotes integration. As opposed to creating the spectre of a bogeyman sub-set within our society.

To nail another piece of disinformation , the overwhelming majority of benefits disbursed go to indigenous people. This is clearly recorded by the Office of National Statistics. Of course, it does not sit comfortably with the anti-immigration, racist brigade to acknowledge that fact but it is clearly recorded.

By all means put forward your points of view, however selective your supporting thesis. But please be mindful that the ONLY people arguing that recent levels of immigration are "unprecedented", that all parties have adopted this as a major policy platform issue (i.e. immigration, period, as opposed to a managed immigration system ) are members of right-wing extremist groupings and/ or their followers

Please do not misrepresent the position of the major parties. It is dissembling of the highest order and using this thread to insinuate anti-immigration arguments is unaccepatable. In short, doing so merely continues the Oslo psychopath's message. But then I am confident that there are those who will wish to do precisely that, regardless of the medium.


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Jul 11 - 07:00 AM

We are not to name those organisations in the forum.
Here is a thread about UK immigration.
thread.cfm?threadid=124011&messages=472&page=1&desc=yes
Here is a post.


01 Jul 11 - 05:53 AM

Almost half a million people were added to the UK population last year – the highest level since 1962 and the start of the last baby boom, figures revealed yesterday.

New migrants accounted for almost half the increase while the number of births hit a 20 year high.

However, the increase in children was also partly down to a rise in migrant mothers meaning immigration had both a direct and indirect impact on population growth, according to the Office for National Statistics (ONS)

The trend means enough people to fill the city of Manchester were added to the country last year and, if it that rate continues, the population will hit the 70 million mark by 2026.

The growing figures are a fresh headache for the Government which has pledged to slash immigration.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/8608777/UK-population-growing-at-fastest-rate-for-50-years.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Jul 11 - 07:04 AM

Once again, with no expectation that the information will be taken on board, I point out that the amount of benefit overpaid in the UK is overwhelmingly made up of accidental overpayments made by the authorities and subsequently reclaimed. And it is greatly outnumbered by the amount of benefit to which people are entitled which they do not claim.

The benefits system does need adjustment and improvement, and it can have perverse effects, for example by penalising people on benefit when they seek to do more than a minimum amount of voluntary work. But sounding off about "scroungers" and "benefit cheats" and "workshy" misses the point.

Quite what all this has to do with a multiple child killer in Norway is not too easy to understand.


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 26 Jul 11 - 07:05 AM

--"where e.g. the LibDems and the Labour parties have demonstrated immigration as a mainstream issue?"-- was what you wrote, E Martyr ~~ nothing about an 'anti-immigration policy' ~~ and that was what I demonstrated. If you choose now to shift your ground, that is your choice & not my problem. I am sure readers of this post will know how to evaluate such opportunistic evasiveness...

And anyway, how, for that matter, would you interpret

"we will see rising levels of employment, skills and wages not more immigration."{Labour ~ my emphasis
"immediately reintroduce entry and exit checks. Our National Border Force would have the power of arrest." {LibDems}

as other than statements against uncontrolled immigration?

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Jul 11 - 09:08 AM

English Martyr, you began your reply with "Nope."
I only know of one other person who does that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Jul 11 - 09:18 AM

But put "Nope" in Lyrics Search for forum and you get several thousand posts using the word by a whole range of people...


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jul 11 - 12:51 PM

"I have never expressed a "repulsively racist idea," or you would be able to produce it."
You were asked did you believe that "their (British Pakistani) culture inspires a slight predisposition to the grooming and abuse of underage girls. Can you confirm that that is your opinion of British Pakistanis?", you replied "It is my opinion that it is a reasonable suggestion".
That is a repulsively racist idea - it is racist - most people I know find it repulsive - you supported it as a reasonable idea - you have expressed a repulsively racist idea.These are direct quotes from you- what's your problem?
Here you have attempted to link the massacre with Muslims - business as usual.
Ake has not only suggested that the killer had grounds for his acts, but also that his demands need to be addressed - like minds, what!!
"I only know of one other person who does that."
Something I occasionally do. I hope you're not suggesting I have been posting under a false name - I only know one person who does that - you - I've been out of reach for a few days, celebrating.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 28 Jul 11 - 01:04 PM

"I have never expressed a "repulsively racist idea," or you would be able to produce it."

I don't know who said this but on the face of it, it is true. The key is the use of the word "repulsively" nearly no one is repulsed by their own ideas. On the other hand, the use of the qualifier "repulsively" provided a strong indication that the speaker has expressed racist ideas which they do not consider to be repulsive.

Since most people who would use the word racist in any sentence which does not include a denial of racism would consider any racist remark repulsive, the quoted statement, from that point of view is also untrue on the face of it.

I can't imagine anyone but a racist making that statement. But maybe that is simply a limitation of my imagination.


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jul 11 - 01:29 PM

This was the context.
I have admitted to knowing nothing about the culture, and could not form such an opinion myself.
That opinion was expressed by eminent national figures, most of whom were actually members of that culture.
I reported that opinion in the thread, and was asked if I believed it.
Here is my whole reply, which contains no racist statements.
Remember, the suggestion was not mine but that of famously ANTI-RACIST Pakistani people.

It is my opinion that it is a reasonable suggestion.
The over representation is a fact that requires an explanation.
Something is predisposing them, and it is more likely to be something sexual in the culture than your alternative list. (wild generalisations?)

If it did give rise to just a slight predisposition, then only a tiny minority would succumb.
And that is exactly what is found.

It is consistent with the facts, self consistent, contains no logical flaws, and no alternative yet suggested.


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jul 11 - 01:41 PM

The suggestion was that the very restrictve marriage practices were to blame.
Men were forced to marry very late and were not allowed any relationships outside marriage.
The frequently unhappy arranged cousin marriages were also implicated.
I knew nothing about any of that.
The suggestions came from people with first hand knowledge and experience, and most were part of and had grown up in that community.
Why would I not believe them?
They are anti-racists so it can not be racist to accept their informed opinion.


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jul 11 - 02:14 PM

Couldn't give a toss about the 'context'
You stated as a personl belief that British Pakistanis were culturally disposed to "the grooming and abuse of underage girls."
Is it not racist, is it not repulsive (to Pakistanis and to non racists), did you or did you not put it forward as your opinion - which of these statements is untrue???
I couldn't give a shit whether you believe marriage practices are to blame - it is classic racist stereotyping on your part and th fact that you also said that "all British Pakistanis" are effected in this way makes aimed at "all Pakistanis".
You have put it forward as your opinion, you have denied making such a statement, you have pleaded neutrality based on your ignorance, you have hidden behind the words of others to defend your belief in it, you are now confirming that belief.
You have made a repulsively racist statement - stop calling people who point this out to you liars - you have just confirmed they are telling the truth, it is your own self-confessed opinion, nobody cares who else shares your view - it is your racist view.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jul 11 - 02:30 PM

It was not my opinion.
I had no knowledge or experience to form such an opinion.

The opinion was expressed, in all the national media, by five respected national figures, three of whom were Pakistani themselves and well known as defenders of their community AGAINST racism and prejudice.
My crime was to believe them.
I even stated that I would reconsider if anyone put forward a different explanation.
No-one did (or do you know of one Jim?)

That post was made early in February.
Why are you constantly trying to attack me with these false accusations Jim?
This is a serious discussion about a serious issue.
If you must do it, use pm. I will reply by same method.


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Jul 11 - 03:11 PM

Generalisations or speculations about the impact of national cultures on the behaviour of people - as for example in the case of Dominique Strauss-Kahn - may be mistaken, but it seems inappropriate to assume that they are "racist".

However Keith's suggestion that PMs might be a better way of discussing this makes sense.


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 28 Jul 11 - 03:22 PM

Have we officially reached more posts about Lox and Keith than about Norway? I take it that getting back to the topic under discussion is not an option?


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jul 11 - 04:03 PM

Keith said:
"It was not my opinion......."
Keith said:
"Don I do now " believe that all male Pakistani Muslims have a culturally implanted tendency....."
Stop telling lies and stop acuusing others of telling lies.
Jack:
"Have we officially reached more posts....."
This massacre, however insanely executed, was an attempt to rally support for a racist backlash in Norway - a "revolution" against "multiculturalism and immigration", as has been suggested in Norway, in the press, (and to some degree supported by some contributors to this thread).
Some of us got a bellyful of Keith's attacking British Pakistanis on a previous thread, and it is my belief that if he was let he would have no hesitation in using this thread in the same way (his linking the behaviour of a massacre by a fascist killer with Muslims was an indication of that IMO).
I have said what I have to say on his behaviour and his own words are enough for people to make up their own minds as far as I'm concerned.
In my opinion, the Norwegian massacre is the inevitable direction for all racism to take when unopposed.
Have said what I want to on this particular aspect
FINIS
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Jul 11 - 04:03 PM

Why not do that Jack?


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 28 Jul 11 - 04:08 PM

Colbert had a funny reaction to initially blaming it on Muslims.


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jul 11 - 05:12 PM

I believe the weather forecast Jim, but it is not my opinion.
It is the considered opinion of experts, so why would I not believe?

Many assumed Islamic terror in the first hours.
"All the hallmarks" was a phrase often used.


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Jul 11 - 05:14 PM

Colbert?

I've noticed commentators drawing an odd distinction between terrorism and mass murder, as if it weren't possible for an act to be properly described under both headings at the same time.

The same goes for the suggestion that there is some inconsistency between saying that the perpetrator is deranged, and that they have political or quasi-political motives.

It seems a mistake to insist on either/or distinctions here, when both/and fits the circumstances better.

And there has also been suggestions that "terrorism" implies awider organisation, and should not be applied to the actions of an individual.

This horrible episode falls pretty evidently into all those categories. It involved the killing of innocent people with the aim of achieving political ends, the essential definition of terrorism, whether by governments, organisations or individuals. (And of course there have been many acts of terrorism carried out by lone individuals.)

The man responsible was operating on a political agenda, but at the same time it seems pretty clear that a personal psychological disturbance was involved. (This is of course not uncommon among organisational terrorists as well - as it is among people who do all kinds of things, burglars, musicians,politicians, artists.)

Somehow there appears to be a tendency to feel that it is dangerous to treat events like this under multiple labels, and necessary to tie them up into a separate category - pathological or political, murder or politics. But that's not the way it is sometimes. Perhaps hardly ever.


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: akenaton
Date: 28 Jul 11 - 05:22 PM

"Ake has not only suggested that the killer had grounds for his acts, but also that his demands need to be addressed - like minds, what!!"
I have read all these threads and have seen no one support or condone the crime committed by this man....everyone has condemned it and I must say that you should be warned by admin for suggesting otherwise

Do you really not understand the difference between racism and open debate?...Is any discussion of immigration considered racist by you?

I dont think you are a fool Jim....so why are you so determined to portray yourself as one?

Suppression of debate is the worst form of bigotry


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 29 Jul 11 - 01:08 AM

The only stability here is that it is the same danger, that of fundamentalism, not some new scary ideology, that committed this atrocity.

Was McVeigh a fundie too?

Suppression of debate is hardly the worst form of bigotry. Try suppression of life.

And I gather he did act alone, for a while they were talking "cells" and associates.


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jul 11 - 03:45 AM

"Suppression of debate is the worst form of bigotry"
It has been suggested here - can't remember by who - that:
"he appears to be an extreme Nationalist who has been driven over the edge by the policies of the Norwegian govt....."
"As western economies worsen and living standards, pension rights, public services come under further attack,expect to see a backlash against the policies pursued by goverments in Western Europe over the last couple of decades.
Perhaps we may yet see Mr Powells "rivers of blood".....I certainly hope not, but action needs to be taken now to reverse some of the policies which have created the "time bomb"....."
and
"Over the past few years there has been a rise in Scandinavian Nationalism..... they have a powerful sense of their history and culture. Lately the massive influx of Muslim immigrants has caused much disquiet amongst Danes, Swedes and Norwegians.
These immigrants have been encouraged into Scandinavia for the same reasons that they were encouraged into the UK....purely economic...cheap labour...nothing to do with equality or democracy
but like most government policy, it has caused more problems than it solved."
Before the enormity of the massacre had been realised it was being suggested that the killer appeared to have genuine grievences which should be addressed, that government policy was partially to blame and that something should be done about all those Muslim immigrants flooding into Norway.
It was also suggested that:
"These are the actions which often occur when a people lose their voice, or are unable to make their feelings known."
So it appears that a lack of freedom of speech for racists also played a part in the massacre.
These statements are ones of appeasment to an extreme act of racism, of pandering to the views of someone who has carried out a massacre of mainly young people, the largest since WW2, of shifting the blame away from the perpetrator's twisted racist views and actions, first to the government and later to "the massive influx of Muslim immigrants" flooding into Norway.
It implies that countries that have laws against the incitement of race hatred should scrap them for fear that some other racist nutters should carry out other massacres.
The Norwegian government has shown dignity, wisdom and courage in declaring it is not prepared to surrender its freedoms to such acts.
The killer was hoping to be granted "freedom of speech" by being allowed to use his appearence in court as a platform, even a rallying call to other racists - the court denied his "right to it" - long may that continue to be the case.
Granting "freedom of speech" to racists is removing their victims' freedoms to live ther lives unterrorised - a racist's charter - is that what is being proposed here?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Musket
Date: 29 Jul 11 - 04:17 AM

I thought I knew what FINIS meant but apparently not.


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jul 11 - 05:57 AM

"I thought I knew what FINIS meant but apparently not. "
I meant my pointing out Keith's racism was FINIS - done and dusted as far as I'm concerned.
Why; do you object to my offering an opinion on appeasement or other aspects of racism on this thread - you seem to be making the point pretty well yourself.
BTW - Today's Times carries an interesting report on the British nutter who apparently likes dressing up in Knights Templar uniform and is claiming to have inspired these killings - it seems we breed our own.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Jul 11 - 06:24 AM

"I meant my pointing out Keith's racism "

I am no racist, and you have done no such thing.
I wish you were not allowed to smear other members like this.

You should confine yourself to responding to posts, not using them, with convoluted and dishonest argument, to somehow prove that other members are bad people!


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Nov 11 - 03:42 AM

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/world/2011/1130/1224308333816.html

"These killings were done by a white, Christian, Fascist thug protesting against the multiculturalism you appear to be objecting to"

No Jim.
He was just mentally ill.


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Nov 11 - 04:04 AM

Arent all Facists mentally ill?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Nov 11 - 11:07 AM

Jim,"This massacre, however insanely executed, was an attempt to rally support for a racist backlash in Norway" WRONG.

Jim,"the actions of a Moslem hater." WRONG.

Jim,"the murder of 90odd people by a fundamentalist Christian " WRONG

Akeneaton. "Jim.. I have already stated that I think the guy was unhinged." RIGHT.

Akeneaton, "The crimes in Norway were the actions of a madman it proves nothing politically...." RIGHT


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 30 Nov 11 - 02:22 PM

Keith grasping at straws so he can go on hating Muslims.


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Nov 11 - 02:47 PM

A non-sequitur Paul, and I don't.


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Nov 11 - 02:48 PM

"WRONG."
Why - hatred of Musilims, is to my mind the sign that somebody is unhinged
The suggestion that all Muslim Pakistanis.... etc is the sign that somebody is seriously unhinged.
The idea that somebody's colour, religion, nationality... makes them somehow superior to anybody without those attributes makes holder of those ideas somewhat psychotic
Why on earth should this prevent the individual, no matter how unhinged, from attempting to organise support for his or her beliefs - Hitler was reckoned mad by many, but he rallied Germany behind him?
The guy actually got support from this thread.
From your own example
"We now need to tackle the failed notion of "multiculturalism" along with many other social idiocies"
Akeneaton, no less
Jim Carroll
PS As I said, I believe that your own views on Pakistani males makes you not a little unhinged, if it is of any comfort - though you appear to have neither the bottle nor the initiative to do anything about it - thankfully


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 30 Nov 11 - 03:02 PM

He was certainly a christian. That does not preclude his being mentally ill, but his being mentally ill doesn't make him immune to fundamentalist ideology, christian or otherwise. Likely the opposite.

Some would hold that any belief in the supernatural is a form of mental illness, anyway.

This was certainly a massacre perpetrated by a
white
male
Christian
opposed to multiculturalism
especially to the (perceived) growing influence of islam in his region of the world.

Why act as if, just because he is also crazy, he wasn't a christian or a fundie or opposed to islam, among other things? It still puts him in the same boat as the islamic terrorists - same god, same reasoning, same methods. Only the other terrorist moslems don't call each other crazy when they do stuff like this, but martyrs.

I m sure there are christians who would consider this guy a martyr for their cause against islam had he died, even though he didn't kill moslems to make his point.

He and Tim McVeigh, though, are far, far outweighed by the islamofundies perpetrating terrorist acts... so let's not try to catch up.


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Nov 11 - 03:06 PM

Jim, delusional insanity can result in any number of obsessions, fears and loathings.
It is random.
Nothing meaningful can be inferred from it.

You tried to use this case as evidence that the risk from racist and right wing extremists is greater than it actually is.
Some of us tried to tell you that this was just a random madman.

We were right.
Jim Carroll was wrong.
Again.


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Nov 11 - 03:43 PM

"You tried to use this case as evidence that the risk from racist and right wing extremists"
I believe that there is a dangers from right-wing extremists - your own attempts to denigrate a whole cultural group is proof that ther are a few around who would brand a whole people perverts.
As mad as this man was, he still got support from Ake - you seem to wish to airbrush that one out or are you claiming him to be another random madman.
Do you believe Hitler to have been mad - did he manage to get a few followers behind him?
And most of all - don't you think it somewhat unpleasantly and smugly small-minded to attempt to score points on the basis of knowledge that none of us had at the time?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Nov 11 - 04:03 PM

don't you think it somewhat unpleasantly and smugly small-minded to attempt to score points on the basis of knowledge that none of us had at the time?

No.
You were determined to use the incident to push your own Leftist agenda.
We were able to put it in perspective and correctly assessed that it was a random act of madness.

Our judgement was correct.
Yours was agenda driven, and wrong.
Again.


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Dec 11 - 03:36 AM

"Our judgement was correct"
Then you'll be able to point out where I claimed that Breivik was sane, won't you?
As I said, "These killings were done by a white, Christian, Fascist thug protesting against the multiculturalism you appear to be objecting to" - the fact that he was also insane is immaterial.
There have been plenty of facists in the past and present who have been every bit as insane as Breivik, and I am sure there are plenty more to come. The fact that he got support for his anti-multiculturist message from at least two members of this forum during the discussion(our homophobic friend, who, having quoted (as an "expert witness", maybe?) you appear to now be desperately ignoring, and someone who suggested we should have listened to Enoch Powell and his "Rivers of Blood" in the first place) is enough evidence for me that there are plenty of potential Breiviks out there for to take no chances.
Every argument I have with you seems to bring you a goose-step further out of your extremist closet; violent, sectarian marches, aids-suffering immigrants not receiving treatment, wartime British Establishment facists (Sir Oswald Mosely, Lord Rothermere, the Windsors) = harmless cranks, all male Pakistanis = potential perverts, gypsies = slavers, Zionist war crime - 100% supported by you....
You really are a squalid, trying to score points from the deaths of (how many was the final death-toll?) young people.
Nearly there - keep goose-stepping
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Dec 11 - 04:03 AM

"These killings were done by a white, Christian, Fascist thug protesting against the multiculturalism you appear to be objecting to" - the fact that he was also insane is immaterial.

The fact that he was insane was NOT immaterial!
That was the reason he did it !
His race and religion were immaterial to his madness and his crime..


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Dec 11 - 04:10 AM

It was YOU Jim who tried to use this crime to push an agenda of race and religion.
You were wrong.
It was just a random madman.


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Dec 11 - 09:12 AM

"His race and religion were immaterial to his madness and his crime.. " as was Timothy McVeigh's, Hitler's, Jim Jones'.....????? (not forgetting Ake's and yours.
You reopened this thread to score points - sorry - another windmill you didn't manage to tilt
Byeeee!!!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: GUEST,keith A
Date: 01 Dec 11 - 09:24 AM

Were they all innocent because of insanity?

This guy killed because he was insane.
He just happened to be white and Christian, as were all his victims.

His colour and faith were immaterial.
His insanity was the whole story.

You just wanted his race and colour to be his reason for killing because it suited your warped agenda.


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Dec 11 - 10:17 AM

BBC 29 November 2011
Last updated at 22:26 GMT Share this pageEmail Print Share this page
340ShareFacebookTwitter.Norwegian disbelief at Breivik 'insanity' By Liss Goril Anda
Norwegian journalist
Many Norwegians fear that the decision may mean Breivik evades punishment Continue reading the main story
Norway AttacksAssessing a killer's sanity
The victims
How attacks happened
Breivik profile
The Norwegian public, politicians and experts alike are expressing surprise at the verdict of insanity delivered by the forensic psychiatrists assessing Anders Behring Breivik.
Many psychiatrists were quoted by the news media ahead of Tuesday's announcement as saying that he was likely to be deemed sane.
In the event, the two court-appointed psychiatrists, Torgeir Husby and Synne Soerheim, concluded that Breivik had "developed the mental disorder of paranoid schizophrenia".
Breivik himself has said he found the verdict insulting and that although he had feared it, he had not expected this outcome.
The Norwegian media's general use of the term schizophrenic also fails to match their portrayal of Breivik. This makes it hard for people to understand how the verdict was reached, triggering concerns that he is "getting away lightly".
The media have given minute descriptions of how Breivik spent years planning his attacks. His ability to do so makes it difficult for many people to accept that he cannot be held to account for them.
Experts divided
In Norway, only about one in five of similar forensic assessments tend to conclude that the perpetrator was insane. This has led even some experts to question the committee's findings.
Media coverage reflects the public's uncertainty at the verdict.
The website of the broadsheet newspaper Aftenposten carried a headline on Tuesday evening with a quote from a Swedish psychiatrist expressing surprise. He points out that Breivik does not appear to have been hallucinating at any point during the attack.
Svenn Torgersen, professor of psychology at the University of Oslo, pointed out to the newspaper Dagbladet that Hitler and Stalin would have been unlikely to receive the same diagnosis as Breivik.
Meanwhile, journalist and commentator Anders Giever remarked in the newspaper VG that although Breivik's statements might seem delusional to outsiders, he has most likely been supported in his view of reality by other users of the extreme right-wing forums he frequented.
The attacks have led to much soul-searching among Norwegians The name of Quisling, leader of Norway's collaborationist government during the Nazi occupation, is frequently brought up in debates on web forums as a comparison.
Do somebody's extreme opinions preclude them from being held responsible for their actions?
There is also concern as to how this verdict will affect those directly affected by the attacks.
Lawyer Brynjar Meling, representing several of the victims of the attacks, has already requested a second opinion on the verdict.
Progress Party member Per Sandberg expressed surprise and outrage at the verdict in an interview with Norwegian public broadcaster NRK.
"The verdict cannot be accepted," he said. "Victims must be certain that he will not be released any time soon."
Sandberg added that his party, of which Breivik was previously a member, would call for a review of how one determines whether a person is fit to stand trial.
But Dagfinn Hoybraten, the previous Christian Democratic Party leader, told the broadcaster that he disagrees.
"We are fortunate to have an independent justice system in Norway, and therefore politicians like us need to keep from telling them what they should be doing," he said.
Liberal party leader Trine Skei Grande agreed, saying that the current regulations must be abided by.
Soul searching
The report will now be examined by the Forensic Commission, who are free to give further comments or ask for more work to be done.
Lawyers have however pointed out that they are unlikely to attempt to overturn the verdict of such a thorough report.
The trial will proceed in much the same manner as if Breivik had been found sound of mind. Evidence will still be examined, and the court has the final say as to whether or not they believe Breivik is guilty of having carried out the attacks.
The killings provoked an outpouring of grief in Norway However, they usually heed the forensic assessment, which in all likelihood means he will not be sentenced to prison, but sectioned instead.
Some are less surprised by the verdict, pointing to Breivik's manifesto as evidence of his delusions.
Web forums also emphasise that this outcome is not entirely negative. If sent to prison, Breivik would have ample opportunity to stoke right-wing extremist opinions among fellow inmates as a sort of martyr.
Being under treatment in a high-security mental health unit will, if nothing else, would severely limit his ability to do so.
Lawyer Carl Bore, also representing some of the victims, told NRK that although he is surprised, he sees no reason to doubt the committee's verdict.
He points out that Norway has done a lot of soul-searching since this summer.
"People ask themselves how this could happen, and look for scapegoats," he said. "Maybe we can more easily move on as a society when we see that it was simply caused by a sick person."
Surprise or not, Norway's struggle to cope with this manifestation of right-wing extremism is sure to be affected by the verdict.


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Dec 11 - 11:38 AM

"It was just a random madman."
As you can see - he was far from a random madman - he was - as I said "a white, Christian, Fascist thug protesting against multiculturalism"
The only doubt was whether his being "a white, Christian, Fascist thug protesting against the multiculturalism" meant he was also mad - that particular panel judged that he was; a different one could just have easily judged otherwise.
Whatever side of the line you fall on; what a perfect argument against the finality of capital punishment, don't you think?
McVeigh, in exactly the same situation, was executed for his crime - in the state of Oklahoma, second only to Texas for having the largest number of excecutions in the US (Jones and Hitler committed suicide b.t.w).   
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Dec 11 - 12:14 PM

Jim, I am a white atheist and am against what I see as the idiocy of "multi culturalism".
I am neither a Fascist nor a thug and would never carry out the horrific crimes perpetrated by this young man.
To do so, one would require to be very seriously deranged.
Perhaps you think that those who does not share your point of view on immigration, or the promotion of homosexuality as a safe and healthy lifestyle, are seriously deranged......that attitude is in itself a serious problem.

Ever considered counselling.....or aromatherapy?


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Dec 11 - 01:19 PM

I think those who hold the views you have just put forward are racists and homophobes - both of which, when aimed at human beings in order to denigrate and persecute them, are illegal .
Ever considered trying humanity?


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Dec 11 - 02:50 PM

More time now.
Sorry, should have added - I don't believe for one minute that you would ever carry out the horrific crimes perpetrated by this young man, but his motivation for doing what he did was not greatly different from your own stated attitude.
Society has deemed fit to make unacceptable the rejection of people because of their race colour or religion and it has been found necessary to pass laws making it illegal to publicly advocate views that persecute, belittle, or disadvantage people who are different from the indigeanous popululation.
Breivik is an example of what can happen if views like yours go unchecked - even the most right-wing of Powell's colleagues rejected him in the end.
Multiculturalism can work and has worked - my own family went to Britain at the time of the famine, intergrated perfectly and are now indistinguishable from the indigenous population - they were, of course the "right" colour.
If you are serious about your views, join the BNP or the English National Party - they'll help you try to get what you want.
BTW - it has never been my intention to target you - but I find your statements so outrageously unaceptable that have found it difficult not to use them as an example of racist or homophobic intollerance - tehe crunch came here when Keith cited you as proof that Breivik was not really a racist and his racist views had nothing to do with his crimes
Jim Carroll   
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 01 Dec 11 - 02:56 PM

Jim,
You are not likely to argue away such explicitly express bigotry. Leave it to the mental health professionals.


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Dec 11 - 03:33 PM

Jim....You misunderstand my views, I have no wish to denigrate either homosexuals or people of other races, as I have explained on numerous occasions.


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 01 Dec 11 - 03:54 PM

People go mad in ways conditioned by the society that they are in. The mad Lord George Gordon was a fanatical antiCatholic who incited lethal riots in the London of the 1780s. The mad "Sir William Courtenay" led a small gang of impoverished farm labourers to violent disaster in Bossenden Wood in Kent in the 1830s. Madness engulfs whole societies. It is not less damaging for that you'll agree.

There are competing madnesses, feeding off each other, which threaten between them to engulf the world. It's no more surprising that Breivik absorbed and amplified the hate around him, and saw himself as leading that wave of hate to violent action against Muslims, than it is that some young Muslims who self- dramatise in similar ways: they are mad too.

As are all who subscribe to that hate. And as you don't have the power to do much about the hate in others, try to at least eschew it yourself. You won't even start to do that until you recognise that it's there.


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Dec 11 - 04:41 PM

Jim....Why should I join either of the political parties you mention?
Politically I am much more "to the left" than you appear to be.
Your last post is full of assumptions and inaccuracies....it is better passed over.

I have little interest in what either you or Jack think of me, butI have a good deal of respect for Joe as administrator.
I have been here for a number of years without changing my stance on these issues and despite your repeated attempts to have me silenced or banned, admin have stated that they will not do so.

Had I been in the eyes of the folks who run this forum....a "homophobe"(whatever that means), or a racist, I am sure your wishes would have been complied with....FINIS.


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Dec 11 - 01:21 AM

Breivik absorbed and amplified the hate around him, and saw himself as leading that wave of hate to violent action against Muslims,

The victims were not Muslims.


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: GUEST,Paul Burke
Date: 02 Dec 11 - 02:00 AM

You're being deliberately thick, again just so you can go on hating Muslims. He said was trying to provoke a holy war against Muslims in Norway. This is quoted from your rag of choice:

The man who reportedly shot dead at least 85 people at a youth camp and killed another seven with a car bomb in the Norwegian capital of Oslo, released a YouTube video calling for conservatives to 'embrace martyrdom' six hours before the attacks, it has emerged.

Anders Behring Breivik posted the video promoting a fight against Islam, which shows pictures of him wearing a wetsuit and pointing an automatic weapon, hours before he set out on the devastating killing spree.

In a text with the video he detailed his plans for the attacks, writing that he would 'dress up as a police officer', adding that it would 'be awesome as people will be astonished'.
Manifesto of terror: Anders Behring Breivik poses in a wetsuit holding an automatic weapon in a YouTube video posted six hours before the deadly attacks

Manifesto of terror: Anders Behring Breivik poses in a wetsuit holding an automatic weapon in a YouTube video posted six hours before the deadly attacks
Attacks: Breivik set out how to make bombs from fertilisers and how to receive them in large quantities by setting up an agricultural company

Attacks: Breivik set out how to make bombs from fertilisers and how to receive them in large quantities by setting up an agricultural company

In the disturbing 1,500-page dossier, he wrote that 'there are situations where cruelty is necessary' and that it is better to kill too many than not enough'.

Police sources told Norwegian media that Breivik had confessed to posting the video setting out his extremist views before the attacks.

Breivik was a member of the Masonic lodge in Oslo and had links to the English Defence League.

In one post online, he wrote: 'I have on some occasions discussed with... the EDL and recommended them to use conscious strategies.

'The tactics of the EDL is to ''entice'' an overreaction from jihad youth/extreme Marxists, something they have succeeded [in] several times already.'

Police chief Roger Andersen said: 'What we know is that he is right wing and a Christian fundamentalist.'


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Dec 11 - 02:40 AM

I do not hate Muslims, and pointing out that the madman was so mad that he killed non-Muslims because of his phobia against Muslims, is not evidence of any hate on my part Paul.

You referred to "violent action against Muslims" when there was none.


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Dec 11 - 03:39 AM

"Jim....You misunderstand my views, I have no wish to denigrate either homosexuals or people of other races,"
"the idiocy of "multi culturalism".
"or the promotion of homosexuality as a safe and healthy lifestyle,"
If you can't see that describing the living together of people of different cultures and races as "idiocy", and suggesting that homosexuality, which is as natural to some people as our hetrosexuality is to us, as "unhealthy",(assuming, of course, that you are not a latent homosexual yourself, taking your hang-ups out on those who have had the courage to 'come out' and risk the bigotry that you display here) - then you need both a brain and a humanity transplant.
Your attitude has fuelled Paki and queer-bashing for a good half of my lifetime, even though I'm quite sure you have never indulged in the practices yourself - you are a racist and a bigot, in that order .
"Politically I am much more "to the left" than you appear to be."
Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but if you describe yourself as a socialist, you need to prefix "National" to it - the essential of the socialism I adhere to is internationalist and embraces all nationalities, colours and cultures.
"whatever that means"
"Homophobia is a term used to refer to a range of negative attitudes and feelings towards lesbian, gay and in some cases bisexual, transgender people and behavior, although these are usually covered under other terms such as biphobia and transphobia. Definitions refer to irrational fear, with the implication of antipathy, contempt, prejudice, and aversion. The term "homophobia" is observable in critical and hostile behavior such as discrimination and violence on the basis of a perceived homosexual or in some cases any non-heterosexual orientation. In a 1998 address, author, activist, and civil rights leader Coretta Scott King stated that "Homophobia is like racism and anti-Semitism and other forms of bigotry in that it seeks to dehumanize a large group of people, to deny their humanity, their dignity and personhood."
"The victims were not Muslims."
The victims on the day of the massacre were not Muslims; the stated aim of the killer was "multiculturalism" - Muslims, and all other races and cultures would spend their lives being victims if his ideas and objectives if his (and your) ideas ever take a hold.
"I do not hate Muslims,"
You describe them as potential sexual perverts because of their culture - that's hate enough for me.
You've had the accounts of how the insanity verdict has been reached and how it has been greeted in Norway by experts and laymen alike - and once again you have chosen to ignore it - no surprise there.
I suppose you realise that by claiming that this cannot be considered a racist attack, you are now defending fascism and racism at its most extreme, violent and dangerous - again, no surprise to me, I wonder if it is to you - somehow I doubt it.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Dec 11 - 04:17 AM

You describe them as potential sexual perverts because of their culture - that's hate enough for me.
Lie.
You've had the accounts of how the insanity verdict has been reached
In the event, the two court-appointed psychiatrists, Torgeir Husby and Synne Soerheim, concluded that Breivik had "developed the mental disorder of paranoid schizophrenia".

Any evidence that any extremist group colluded with the madman, as you claimed, or did he act out his mad, deluded fantasies alone?


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Dec 11 - 05:28 AM

"poor old Keith,"
W've been overthis a hundred times Keith - you said that you believed that all Male Pakistanis had a cultural implant that makes them potential abusers of under-age girls
You claimed you only said so because "experts" have said the same - yet you have totally failed to prooduce one single quote that mentions "all male Pakistanis" or a "cultural implant" and if I ask you to do soo now, you will not because it is your statement and yours alone.
You wrote you beliecved it and you used it in your attack on Muslims - say you didn't and produce your quotes - waitingggggg
"Any evidence that any extremist group colluded with the madman, as you claimed,"
Where did I make any such claim? (once again a rhetorical question for which I don't expect to receive an answer.
I said it was a possibility that groups would respond to his call and the authorities should not relax their investigation until they were certain that was not the case. In fact The English Defence League leader, with whom Breivik had made contact when he was a member of the British National Party did, like Ake (and Breivik) say that Multiculturalism should be addressed as the problem.
Are you prepared to tell us why you are attempting to divert the focus of this appalling massacre away from its racist motivation - or can we guess for ourselves?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Dec 11 - 05:42 AM

"You have been presented with evidence that links this massacre with two racist groups in Britain - you have the public response to one of those groups, which you haven't even bothered to acknowledge, so here it is once again for you to ignore:
".....but he does not want to decry the beliefs that led to Breivik's actions.... "the slaughter might wake Europeans up".
There are other such groups scattered all over Europe and the stated aim of this guy was to stir such groups into action.
There have already been violent racist incidents in some of the former communist states, attacks on Roms and on immigrant workers.
And in the light of these attacks the governments concerned should sit on their hands - yeah, right, fits in perfectly with everything you have argued on racism so far!
"....accusing him of NOT acting alone"
Not accusing him of any such thing SJ, I am suggesting that until we know whether he was or not, and if his wake-up call has had any effect,"

It did not Jim.He was ignored as a madman.

And you want to discuss Pakistanis, on the forum, AGAIN!
I will knock down your nonsense in a pm.
Mudcat has suffered enough from your sad, deranged obsessions.


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Dec 11 - 06:04 AM

"I will knock down your nonsense in a pm."
And I will put it up for public scrutiny
Know my nonsense down in public and we can put it to bed once and for all.
It s relevant to this thread as it concerns your continuous defence of extreme racism here as there.
You have had my sole statement about Breivik's links with English fascist groups - are you claiming they did not take place?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Dec 11 - 06:05 AM

Keith's message
"The 5 all ascribed the offending to specified aspects of their culture.
It was not my claim.
I only expressed my belief because Don put the question directly to me.
I had every reason to believe them.
What reason not to?
"It is racist" will not do. "
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Dec 11 - 06:20 AM

"Breivik's links" was just his futile, failed attempts to find anyone who shared his insane delusions.

He achieved no links.


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Dec 11 - 08:36 AM

Can we be quite clear about this.
When you re-opened this thread I believed it to be an exercise in one-upmanship on your part to prove I was wrong.
I now believe that this was not the case - it is yet another branch of your anti-Muslim campaign along with the 'Muslim Prejudice' thread, where you set out to prove BRITISH Muslim Pakistanis to be degenerates and your postings to the Palestine thread where you are attempting to justify the slaughter ofArbs by the Israelis.
Once again you fail to produce one single quote from one single expert claiming that "All male Pakistanis are culturally degenerate" because there are none - it would have been illegal to have made such an outlandishly racist statement without proof - no public figure has ever made such a claim exept fascists from groups like the BNP and the English Defence League and even they have been forced to clean up their act in order to appear "respectable" to the British electorate.
The only postings that can be vaguely described as support for your racism has come from someone who appears to believe that the only racism worth taking seriously is anti-Semitism, and even he has expressed reservations at your stance.
Here you appear to be defending what is obviously a blatently racist attack in order to rally support for attacks on multiculturalism.
You have totally ignored the attacks on multiculturalism on this thread, and you ignore the fact that it is and always has been possible to be a racist and insane - Germany was full of madmen who belived in racial superiority and inferiority; did the fact that they were insane enough to attempt to anihilate an entire ethnic culture make them any less racist or dangerous? Are you honestly trying to claim that the fanatical anti-Semites who sent six million Jews to the gas chambers were not both insane and racist - as Breivik was?
THIS WAS A RACIST ATTACK FROM A RACIST IN ORDER TO ATTRACT SUPPORT FOR A RACIST CAUSE - PLAIN AND SIMPLE.
Racism has become a fixed part of all our lives, and glossing it over is an act of racism in itself.
Maybe Sailor Jack is right:
"You are not likely to argue away such explicitly express bigotry. Leave it to the mental health professionals."
I still believe it worth the effort to point our racism when it is espoused with the determination you have shown you have shown to your crusade.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Dec 11 - 08:46 AM

"All male Pakistanis are culturally degenerate"

Who made this ludicrous statement Jim.
You put it up as a quote.
Is it a quote?
I hope you are not ascribing it to me.

I am replying by PM to your groundless slanders and smears.


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Dec 11 - 10:00 AM

Your response - in relation to discussion on Pakistani representation in acuiring young women for sex
"Don I do now " believe that all male Pakistani Muslims have a culturally implanted tendency" towards having sex with under-age girls
Outside the quotation marks refers to what was being discussed at the time, which has been put to you many times and which you have not disputed but attributed to "experts" which you still decine to name.
How about some names and quotes?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Dec 11 - 10:08 AM

The five names have all been given many times.
The quotes were all linked to, or pasted, or both, on the original thread.
All further discussion of this by pm only.


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 02 Dec 11 - 10:24 AM

If he had been a crazy atheist he wouldn't have had all the reasons behind him that he had as a crazy fundie. It is completely relevent that this was a monotheistic act of terrorism, no different from 9-11.

Same god, same reasons, same methods.

The only reason he's even being *considered* insane is that Norway isn't fundementalist. If it were, he'd have been normal.


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Dec 11 - 10:29 AM

So no person of faith can ever be not guilty because of insanity, but atheists can?
If he had been an atheist racist he would be alright, but because one of his delusions was that he was a Christian, he must go down?


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Dec 11 - 10:46 AM

"The five names have all been given many times."
The quote has not - no "All Pakistanis" no "cultural implant"
For the record - you have just all but admitted on a PM that nowhere has anybody referred to either.
"All further discussion of this by pm only. "
I will post the PMs if I believe them to be relevant to your continued racism here.
If there s any dispute - I will simply post them all
Why do you insist on diverting this racist attack away from racism?
Jim Carrol


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Dec 11 - 11:46 AM

Jim, that Feb post of mine was very short.
To make your case, you have to extract one sentence from only 3, and even leave out half of that and add your own bits.
You are a devious and dishonest person.
You resort to these ludicrous accusations whenever you are shown up as unable to support your position in a discussion.
Now you are misrepresenting even my pms to you.

And, you have just misrepresented my position in this thread, on the Palestine thread!

What is wrong with you?
Stop it Jim.


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Dec 11 - 12:46 PM

Short or lonfg - it says what it says - and you still haven't produced one single quote thast involves "all Pakistanis or "cultural implants."What is wrong with you?"
I detest racists
Why are you attempting to divert our attention away from the racist nature of these killings and why have you never responded to the fact that at least 2 people on this thread used it as an excuse to attack multiculturalism?
You have said what you said on the Palestine thread - that Israeli atrocities against civilians didn't happen or are acceptable - what's to distort?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Dec 11 - 02:23 PM

Why are you attempting to divert our attention away from the racist nature of these killings
I am not.
You have dreamt up a new crime to accuse me of!

and why have you never responded to the fact that at least 2 people on this thread used it as an excuse to attack multiculturalism?
How should I respond?
Ake has always disagreed with multiculturalism.
Lots of people do.
Why would anyone need "an excuse"??

You have said what you said on the Palestine thread - that Israeli atrocities against civilians didn't happen or are acceptable
No I have NOT!
It was YOU who said they DID happen.
I just asked how you knew, because Israel denies it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 02 Dec 11 - 04:07 PM

The killings weren't racist - norwegian on norwegian is hardly racist.


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 02 Dec 11 - 06:15 PM

And his killings had nothing whatsoever to do with his religion, or his religious beliefs. His anger was targeted at the political establishment in Norway, it's current ruling Party and specifically one of their former leaders, who he missed at Utøya.

Insane means that they can hold him indefinitely, which is what I think will happen. Insane means he will probably never get the forum he hoped his actions would guarantee him.


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 02 Dec 11 - 08:12 PM

Hmmm - early reports were that he was upset with the multiculturalism of the ruling party - and that was why he targeted them. Is that no longer thought to be the case?


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Dec 11 - 09:35 PM

Did Teribus ever think that? I've seen no evidence that he did.

It is a time honored "conservative" tactic to try to reframe the narrative of a story after most people have moved on to other interests.

If anything is keeping this thread alive besides denial among ant-muslim bigots, I'd like to know what it is.


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 02 Dec 11 - 11:23 PM

Time honoured conservative tactic eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Teribus
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 09:05 AM

No death penalty in Norway and the maximum possible prison sentence to impose is 20 years. He can however be classified as a danger to society and held under review and that could possibly mean that he will never be released.

The attacks occurred the day before I wrote that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Dec 11 - 04:15 AM

There were 3 threads on this issue.
Terribus mostly posted here.
thread.cfm?threadid=139289

He was the best informed of all of us, and remarkably prescient.
Jim, on the other hand .....
Oh dear.


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Dec 11 - 06:29 AM

Keith - nobody gives a **** any more
You want to continue to try to make this a tow man argument - feel free - I'm quite happy that you've said what you've said - that these killings have no political implications whatever - sums up you and terminus (and his guns) perfectly.
People are quite caable of making up thir own minds whether this is the case - and of your motives for making such a statement
"denial among ant-muslim bigots," has it about right ("right" being the operative word)

Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 03 Dec 11 - 11:12 AM

tow = straw?

Sorry. There is another thread for you two.

The rest of us are still discussing the thread.

And I wasn't saying Teribus said something, I was asking a question to the thread.


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Dec 11 - 12:19 PM

Whoops - sorry
two- of course
"And I wasn't saying Teribus said something"
And my remarks weren't aimed at you - Teribus never says anything - of worth anyway.
".....Is that no longer thought to be the case?"
Not as far as I can see - he has been pronounced insane, but it certainly does not preclude him from being a racist; nor does it in any way lessen the danger of his cause being acted on by others of similar opinions.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 03 Dec 11 - 12:29 PM

Ad Hominem!


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Dec 11 - 12:34 PM

"The only postings that can be vaguely described as support for your racism has come from someone who appears to believe that the only racism worth taking seriously is anti-Semitism," Jim wrote above addressing Keith.

I suspect he means me. If not, I beg his pardon. But if I am right, then it is by no means an accurate statement of my position. I should like to ask Jim to quote anything I have said anywhere which might even suggest that it is.

~Michael~


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Dec 11 - 12:38 PM

Being insane does not preclude him from being a racist.
He clearly is a racist.
Being insane does not preclude him from being a racist, or a sexist, or an Anglophobe, or a folk singer.
It is irrelevant to all those things.

Being insane does not in any way lessen the danger of his cause being acted on by others of similar opinions, nor does it increase the danger.

His insanity makes everything else irrelevant.
He only did it because he is insane.
(According to the court psychiatrists who have spent months assessing and diagnosing him.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 03 Dec 11 - 12:50 PM

Why would being insane make everything else irrelevant? Are you saying the court shrinks are claiming that? How odd, Bensonmum...


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Dec 11 - 01:26 PM

If he did it for a racist motive, he is a criminal.
If he did it for a political motive, he is a criminal.
If he did it because of insane delusions, he is not a criminal, he is criminally insane, and any motive he believed he had is not even considered by the court, because it is irrelevant.

Jim, Michael did not support racism, he challenged your assessment of it.
I remind you that McGrath of Harlow also denied racism in us a few weeks ago, and Joe Offer described us both as " nice people" a few months back.
You have become obsessed with establishing racism where there is none.


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Dec 11 - 03:00 PM

"Jim,"
I said it ends here - if you have any evidence that
A) His madness excludes him from being a racist
or
B) That there is no risk of others (like Ake or Torpitude) rallying to his attemt at gaining support for his cause - please produce it - but not to me.
I am though fucking up threads by trading opinions with a proven racist who chooses to ignore evidence which doesn't fit his particular twisted brand of bigotry.
I think you might have found a soulmate in our gun-totin' friend - go talk to him - he's more your style.
Over and out
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Dec 11 - 04:26 PM

- if you have any evidence that
A) His madness excludes him from being a racist


As I said, he is clearly racist, and we now know he is also barking mad.

Does that mean you end here or not Jim? (woof woof)


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 03 Dec 11 - 11:25 PM

If you're crazy then the courts do not consider your motives, but we still can, right?

I love the expression Barking Mad, for some reason.

Do we know whether they have decided that he's mad just because he thought it reasonable to commit terrorism? That would be pretty insane for a Norwegian... or are they really claiming either schizophrenia or manic depression, which are the only two ways for humans to BE barking mad, and in which case, how was he able to keep it together long enough to plan and carry out this attack?

I have a definite impression that it is the latter rather than the former... but that does not make me sure. If so, though, then his motives come right back into the equation.


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Dec 11 - 02:59 AM

They say he was delusional when he killed and is schizophrenic.


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Dec 11 - 03:02 AM

paranoid schizophrenia


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Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 04 Dec 11 - 01:42 PM

Awfully high-functioning, in that case. I wonder, if they took the massacre off his list of symptoms, if he'd still qualify.


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Mudcat time: 26 October 12:11 PM EDT

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