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Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings

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The Sandman 21 Mar 18 - 02:30 PM
Jim Carroll 21 Mar 18 - 07:29 AM
Vic Smith 21 Mar 18 - 07:05 AM
Hagman 21 Mar 18 - 06:46 AM
Jim Carroll 21 Mar 18 - 04:33 AM
Hagman 20 Mar 18 - 07:01 PM
GUEST,Derek Schofield 20 Mar 18 - 05:28 PM
Vic Smith 20 Mar 18 - 02:18 PM
Jim Carroll 20 Mar 18 - 12:04 PM
Joe Offer 20 Mar 18 - 11:46 AM
Jim Carroll 19 Mar 18 - 05:00 AM
The Sandman 19 Mar 18 - 04:05 AM
Joe Offer 19 Mar 18 - 02:07 AM
Desert Dancer 08 Jun 16 - 10:26 AM
Desert Dancer 08 Jun 16 - 10:15 AM
GUEST,Henry Piper of Ottery. 17 Feb 16 - 05:54 AM
Jim Carroll 17 Feb 16 - 05:18 AM
Jim Carroll 17 Feb 16 - 04:55 AM
Joe Offer 16 Feb 16 - 11:13 PM
GUEST,Another Forest Gate Geezer 30 Oct 15 - 10:06 AM
GUEST,Forest Gate geezer 30 Oct 15 - 08:36 AM
Desert Dancer 19 Apr 12 - 04:30 PM
GUEST,Greg Gunner 19 Apr 12 - 02:33 PM
Jim Carroll 25 Jun 11 - 11:06 AM
MGM·Lion 24 Jun 11 - 05:25 PM
Jim Carroll 24 Jun 11 - 01:39 PM
The Sandman 24 Jun 11 - 12:09 PM
GUEST,Nebucanezzar Bumblechook 24 Jun 11 - 05:37 AM
GUEST,Nebucanezzar Bumblechook 24 Jun 11 - 04:07 AM
GUEST,Nebucanezzar Bumblechook 24 Jun 11 - 03:59 AM
Jim Carroll 24 Jun 11 - 03:18 AM
GUEST,Quango banjo 23 Jun 11 - 07:25 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 23 Jun 11 - 06:30 PM
The Sandman 23 Jun 11 - 06:23 PM
The Sandman 23 Jun 11 - 06:22 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 23 Jun 11 - 05:44 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 23 Jun 11 - 05:42 PM
The Sandman 23 Jun 11 - 05:40 PM
The Sandman 23 Jun 11 - 05:23 PM
The Sandman 23 Jun 11 - 05:18 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 23 Jun 11 - 05:16 PM
The Sandman 23 Jun 11 - 05:12 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 23 Jun 11 - 05:11 PM
The Sandman 23 Jun 11 - 03:39 PM
Jim Carroll 23 Jun 11 - 03:38 PM
Dave MacKenzie 23 Jun 11 - 03:31 PM
The Sandman 23 Jun 11 - 03:20 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 23 Jun 11 - 02:57 PM
Brian Peters 23 Jun 11 - 01:40 PM
Jim Carroll 23 Jun 11 - 11:29 AM
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Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Mar 18 - 02:30 PM

Jim my email was accurate not insulting, imo Kennedy was acurates egg, your surname is Carroll, it is not insulting to use a surname, although the truth was i used your surname as i was in a rush, having more important things to do eg organising folk events, so my intention was not as you seem to think., but use of surnasme was because " jim" had been unintnentionally erased,[due to not good typing] and i really did not think Carroll[without jim] was insulting.


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Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Mar 18 - 07:29 AM

"Sussex Traditions."
Nice job Vic, would that your enterprise is echoed throughout the countrybut that still entails computer literacy
As backward as it appears, rural Ireland, where much of the BBC collecting took place, is still thin on the ground regarding computer use - as for travellers...!
I know of several from both communities who are hard put to finding relatives... grandparents and such, who gave songs and music to the BBC and would be delighted to be able to buy copies of them if they knew were to find them.
'Progress' tends to leave so many in its wake
Every time this subject comes up, the nee for some sort of a central organisation springs to mind
Even the NSA at the British Library falls short of this - as for EFDSS... what can you say ?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: Vic Smith
Date: 21 Mar 18 - 07:05 AM

I'd rather have material online than not have it available at all, but I know what you're saying, Jim - esp. with this kind of thing that warrants elaboration and elucidation.
I agree totally. However, it not essential that an on-line presence is just the 'stand-alone' recordings. It is also possible that performance can be linked to commentary, lyric and melody transcription on the web and that is what we are struggling towards with the website and database at Sussex Traditions. I say 'struggling' because it is a huge task even to cover one county where there has been a massive amount of collecting work.


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Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: Hagman
Date: 21 Mar 18 - 06:46 AM

I'd rather have material online than not have it available at all, but I know what you're saying, Jim - esp. with this kind of thing that warrants elaboration and elucidation.


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Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Mar 18 - 04:33 AM

Topic's original plan was to re-issue the 'Folk Songs of Britain' series complete and unedited, but Kennedy's demands made that exorbitantly expensive
I assume that will never now be done
Am I alone in believing that putting anything on line is a poor substitute for albums?
I treasured the thoughtful notes that were always part of buying an album - scholarship at its best in some cases
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: Hagman
Date: 20 Mar 18 - 07:01 PM

"I doubt if there will be any more Voice of the People CDs, sadly."

Why is that, Derek? Is that a commercial decision on Topic's part, or policy?

Very sad news, either way....


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Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: GUEST,Derek Schofield
Date: 20 Mar 18 - 05:28 PM

I doubt if there will be any more Voice of the People CDs, sadly. Perhaps in due course, recordings will be available on the British Library site.
Derek Schofield


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Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: Vic Smith
Date: 20 Mar 18 - 02:18 PM

Some years ago I heard that Topic were going to (or already have) release a 'cherry-pick' of what they deemed were the best ones on Voice of the People 2 and that Musical Traditions were then going to be releasing some of those that were good but even more of a minority appeal.


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Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Mar 18 - 12:04 PM

"Jim, do you think that some day soon, all or most of the Kennedy recordings will be available to the public"
It really depends on people knowing about them and doing something about it-
When I have finished your disc (soon) you will have a lot of them
Jim


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Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: Joe Offer
Date: 20 Mar 18 - 11:46 AM

Jim, do you think that some day soon, all or most of the Kennedy recordings will be available to the public, or are many tied up in ownership claims?
-Joe-


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Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Mar 18 - 05:00 AM

"Carrolls post is imo not untrue but an exaggeration."
The name is Jim Carroll Dick - you are not going to give any discussion a chance if you behave the way you are prone to do
Several of us have spent a fair amount of time researching the fortunes of the BBC project in depth and we don't believe it worthwhile to make things up in doing so
Kennedy's behaviour is a fact of history - not an opinion; the fact that it has never been brought to light before now is that Kennedy was always there with the threat of legal action if it had been
A friend's family was recorded in the fifties - he has found that the the all the songs/music they gave to the 'BBC' collector (Kennedy) was not included in the BBC collection
He is at present trying to find if those recordings still exist - perhaps you might know?
Try to be helpful rather than insulting Dick - I'm sure you have something to offer other than vendettas
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Mar 18 - 04:05 AM

let there be some balance here,yes peter k did try and re cover some of his expenses, he also exploited me, but..... a more apt description would be he was a curates egg, good and bad in places.
Carrolls post is imo not untrue but an exaggeration.


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Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: Joe Offer
Date: 19 Mar 18 - 02:07 AM

Any current information about the availability of Kennedy's Folktrax recordings?
-Joe-


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Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 08 Jun 16 - 10:26 AM

When I posted a link for the new site at Mudcat on Facebook, Facebook helpfully offered a link to a British Library blog post by Andrew Pace about the site: 03 JUNE 2016 Peter Kennedy Archive.

From the intro:

"As part of an AHRC Cultural Engagement project grant awarded to City University and partially funded by the National Folk Music Fund, ethnomusicologist Andrew Pace, has engaged in a project to catalogue thousands of paper and photographic files from Peter Kennedy's collection of British and Irish folk music held at the British Library.

"This month we have launched a unique website - www.peterkennedyarchive.org - in which listeners can retrace the chronology and geographical routes of Kennedy's extensive field recording activity. In the text below, Andrew describes the project and walks us through the website's main features."

He says:

"What makes this website unique is the way it contextualises recordings and photographs of performers with Peter's own notes about them. Whilst the British Library's catalogue is useful as a search tool, it doesn't reveal how a collection was formed and developed – and it doesn't tell us very much about who created it. This new website gives us a better idea of what's in this collection by refocusing attention on Peter as a recordist and reconstituting his material into a form that better resembles how he created it."

~ Becky in Hackettstown


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Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 08 Jun 16 - 10:15 AM

The British Library now has a pretty second site for accessing the collection, in addition to the British Library Sounds link given by Joe Offer, above. It was developed by Andrew Pace. It's a different interface for the same material -- the original link does not redirect to the new site.

www.peterkennedyarchive.org/

"This website has been developed by Andrew Pace, who has been sorting and cataloguing Peter Kennedy's collection at the British Library since 2010."

Here's what's posted at the new site about the archive and electronic access:

"All of Peter's recordings, photographs and reports featured on this website are provided by the British Library and are governed by their ethical usage policy. Enquiries about the collection should be directed to the World and Traditional Music section.

"At present (May 2016) around 250 tapes and nearly 600 photographs from Peter's collection are available to freely access online through British Library Sounds. His full collection of paper files have been catalogued and will be searchable through the British Library's catalogue over the coming months.

"As Peter's archive continues to be digitised more material will be added to Sounds and to this website."

~ Becky currently in Hackettstown


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Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: GUEST,Henry Piper of Ottery.
Date: 17 Feb 16 - 05:54 AM

Unfortunately I have only recently discovered this thread, but sadly have to concur with much of what has been said about Peter Kennedy's attitude to material he collected or recorded. In my capacity as Leader of the Sidmouth Traditional Mummers, I have spoken to members of the family of Arthour Baker, from whom the Sidmouth play was collected in 1957,as well as others involved at the time.
The play was collected from Arthour in 1957, and published by the Dartington institute shortly thereafter, copies of the script were freely sold both by Dartington, and Kennedy himself, for many years with, no financial recompense to Arthour or any of his companions, who also travelled at their own expense up to London to record an impromptu read through of the play for Kennedy and a group of his folklore enthusiast friends, this recording was also made available for sale on C.D via kennedy under the folktrax banner, towards the end of his life, I had several conversations with kennedy,both over the 'phone and via email, and he sent me a C.D of this recording, at no charge, but it came with dire warnings hand written on the sleeve that I must not use it for public performance or similar without his express permission, or else I would be liable to pay royalty to Kennedy as the copyright holder.
it is also regrettable that over the years the part played by local schoolteacher Win Humphries who was largely responsible for bringing the play to Kennedy's attention was systematically reduced, with collecting credits latterly given solely to Kennedy.
It is unlikely that Kennedy made a fortune from his exploitation of the Sidmouth Play, but it seems sad to us current generation of Sidmouth Mummers that those who actually created and performed the play got nothing, whilst others did receive an (albeit small) financial reward.
It is to be hoped that todays generation of collectors have a more altruistic and fair minded attitude to their sources than those of kennedys time.


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Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Feb 16 - 05:18 AM

Correction - Kennedy did not 'make' all the recordings he sold - many were recorded by Bob Copper, Sean O'Boyle, Seamus Ennis and others - he didn't consult them either
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Feb 16 - 04:55 AM

The bulk of Kennedy's recordings were those he made while working for the BBC in the early 1950s - he sold them without consulting either the Beeb or the performers.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: Joe Offer
Date: 16 Feb 16 - 11:13 PM

The British Library has a good number of recordings made by Peter kennedy. I don't know if these are the Folktrax recordings. They're in different order, if they are the same.
-Joe-


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Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: GUEST,Another Forest Gate Geezer
Date: 30 Oct 15 - 10:06 AM

I think you can go back at least to the nineteen twenties with Paramount Records Home Town Skiffle.


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Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: GUEST,Forest Gate geezer
Date: 30 Oct 15 - 08:36 AM

Surely skiffle was invented by Dan Burley in 1946 or 7 ? He had a tune called Skiffle Blues then....and in 1946 he recorded as Dan Burley and his Skiffle Boys.


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Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 19 Apr 12 - 04:30 PM

Check this old thread song Tom Dooley for related posts by Sandy Paton and Nerd (Stephen Winick of the LOC American Folklife Center), as well as links to a few more Mudcat threads.

~ Becky in Long Beach


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Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: GUEST,Greg Gunner
Date: 19 Apr 12 - 02:33 PM

The Proffitt family's claim to "Tom Dooley" is attributed to Frank Proffitt's grandmother Phoebe Pardue Proffitt. According to the Proffitt family's version of the story that I heard from Frank Proffitt, Jr. and read elsewhere, Phoebe Pardue grew up in Wilkes County where the Tom Dooley saga took place. Supposedly, Phoebe heard the song as a young girl in Wilkes County and later taught it to Frank Proffitt's father, Wiley Proffitt, and paternal aunt, Nancy Proffitt Prather. Frank Proffitt, in turn, learned it from his father and his aunt.

Chronologically, there is one problem with the Proffitt version. The Tom Dooley saga took place immediately following the Civil War. Although it is true that Phoebe Pardue and her family originated from Wilkes County, North Carolina, Phoebe Pardue had been living in Johnson County Tennessee at least since the 1860 Johnson County Tennessee Census. Phoebe Proffitt married John Wesley Proffitt (Frank Proffitt's grandfather) sometime after the Civil War. This would suggest that Phoebe Proffitt was already a young married woman at the time of the Tom Dooley saga, not a young girl in Wilkes County, North Carolina.

Also, Grayson and Whitter recorded "Tom Dooley" in the late 1920's, eight to nine years before Frank Proffitt's version was collected by the Warner's. Grayson was a native of Johnson County Tennessee, and a neighbor of John Wesley Proffitt and Phoebe Pardue Proffitt.

It appears that "Tom Dooley" was a local song popular in east Tennessee and northwest North Carolina. Grayson may have learned the song from the Proffitt family. Or Frank Proffitt may have learned the song from the Grayson and Whitter recording. However, the explanation could be as simple as both Grayson and Whitter and Frank Proffitt learning the song from oral tradition, a tradition that never recorded the composer's name. And since Tom Dula (Dooley) was captured in Johnson County Tennessee, the story and the song had a great amount of interest in east Tennessee.

Frank Proffitt's claim to ownership centered on a verse or two that was found in the Proffitt version of "Tom Dooley" that was not present in other versions. The conclusion being that the Kingston Trio used the Proffitt version via Frank Warner and not some other version.

Like somewone else has written, the bulk of the royalties went to the Kingston Trio, as they owned the rights prior to the 1962 settlement. Frank Proffitt's inital royalty check went to pay his son's college tuition. Subsequent checks enabled him to secure a loan to build his family a new home. It was either Lee Haggerty or Sandy Paton who loaned Frank Proffitt the money to finish his home. The loan was to be paid off through income generated by the sale of Frank Proffitt's recordings and handmade musical instruments. With Frank Proffitt's untimely death in 1965 and folk music's slow demise under the onslaught of rock and roll, the loan was never fully repaid.

Frank Proffitt did not compose "Tom Dooley", but neither did the Kingston Trio. The issue was not whether Frank Proffitt owned the song, but whether or not he owned his family's version of the song, particularly the common lyrics.

Greg


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Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jun 11 - 11:06 AM

Thank you Mike, but with respect, you've never seen me ride.
While I'm on:
"we chose the latter"
Sould, of course read we chose the former.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 24 Jun 11 - 05:25 PM

Jim ~~ How does one get writer's cramp from riding on a hobby-horse? Surely more a case of that well-known memoir, "My 40 years in the Saddle, by Major Bumsore."

~Michael~


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Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jun 11 - 01:39 PM

Cap'n,
".....the traditional singer is paid a lump sum in advance for his songs."
This presumes that the commercially use of the songs is the object of the exercise in the first place - I know very few instances where this has been the case.
Primarily the collectors I have know, (us included) have recorded for archival and research purposes; any albums we have put out have been a side-product.
The sale of albums of field recordings is pitifully small and more often than not does not even cover the production costs.
The one instance where we issued an album of a single singer (Tom Lenihan), a fee was agreed between the singer and the company (Topic); we had nothing to do with it other than to act as go-betweens; our 'payment' was 6 copies of the LP.
Other companies have not been so generous; for more recent projects we were given 10 copies which we had to distribute between the singers and their families. Because they were ensembles of numerous singers the initial 'fee' was so pitifully small that if we had shared it out the sum would have been insulting so, with the agreement of all the singers we donated all royalties to the Irish Traditional Music Archive - poured it back into the music. That has always been our practice with everything we do connected with collecting.
I have no idea what the average financial expectancy is for a revival singer, but it doesn't work for source singers.
In the end it becomes a choice between issuing an album and making up the financial shortfall yourself or leaving the material on an archive shelf for posterity; we chose the latter as long as we could get the full agreement of the singers . In 30 years we never encountered a financial problem with the singers we have known - they simply did not connect the act of singing with making money. One thing we always guaranteed was that if there was any payment arising from the recordings it was automatically theirs.
There have been perks we have been able to offer; fees for club appearences (severely limited by the small number of clubs prepared to book relatively unknown field singers - "We don't do anything like that; we're a fok club!!") and visits to local schools and libraries.
We were once caught out by, surprisingly enough, The National Folk Festival at Sutton Bonnington when we took a Traveller storyteller singer only to find that they only paid expenses. As that included (only) one of us and the singer we managed to combine our and his expenses and chip in something to cover his fee for the week-end.
He was surprised and delighted to receive anything - for us it was a a salutory lesson in how the traditional/revival class system operated, even among those with the best of intentions.
Better get down off my hobby-horse before I end up with writers cramp.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Jun 11 - 12:09 PM

ok, a collector collects some songs from a traditional singer.
he then has to pay for the cd to be produced,and his expenses petrol etc, he has to recoup the cost of this, but what happens next, a contract between the two people has to be agreed? it would seem fair that any profits are then split equally between the two people.
An alternative is that the traditional singer is paid a lump sum in advance for his songs.


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Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: GUEST,Nebucanezzar Bumblechook
Date: 24 Jun 11 - 05:37 AM

Loking through the Folktrax online to cross-check on some of my above statements, I found Peter Kennedy's greatest but little known claim to fame - "before Lonnie Donegan arrived, John Hasted had "Skiffle" going at Cecil Sharp House and Peter had told George Martin of an outstanding group of Quarrymen in Liverpool."
How's that?
NB


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Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: GUEST,Nebucanezzar Bumblechook
Date: 24 Jun 11 - 04:07 AM

On the other side of the holding on to royalties coin, a true tale.
Billy Connolly recorded a song 'Three Men Frae Carntyne'. He sent on the royalty cheque to the Glasgow performer he had heard it from, who said "I only added on a bit" and sent the cheque to a Dunfermline performer he had heard it from, who in turn said "I only added on a bit". A Fife car mechanic whose only other known song is "Who stole the poultice aff the scabby heidit wean?" opened his post one morning to find a cheque for several thousand pounds.
NB


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Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: GUEST,Nebucanezzar Bumblechook
Date: 24 Jun 11 - 03:59 AM

A posting I made a couple of days ago never made it into this discussion - maybe I hit a wrong key at the end.
I found available on Folktraxs several CDs of recordings made by Alan Lomax in Scotland, copies given to Peter Kennedy offered for sale available as 'co-recorded' by him though documentation says he was hundreds of miles away at the time. Some of these I recently learned were copies of BBC recordings [not by Peter Kennedy] that Lomax had made. One other Lomax only track is I understand despite polite protests still to be included in the current Kennedy series.
I have never understood how some collectors can claim all royalties. They are of course owed for use of their recording, and then yes a slice of the little pie for their effort in collecting. The rest of the pie notionally has to be shared out to the singer of the song, the maker of the song or if that person is not known the person the singer got it from, and on down the line, the financial proportion for each to be varied according to how much editorial and creative input each participant has added / subtracted / amended.
The fact that none of the above can in sanity be done is one of the many fine arguments for a national fund that 'trad' royalties should be paid into, to be used to support / preserve / celebrate / promote our traditions.
NB


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Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jun 11 - 03:18 AM

GSS:
Sorry to interrupt the point you have already made pretty succinctly Cap'n, but while you dominate this thread with your quabble over what was done to you, Kennedy slips out the back door - again.
I agree entirely with Ron Olesko "This is a fascinating, and important discussion" which it would be a great shame to waste on a (as you have made clear, justified) personal grievence.
A story from Irish collector and broadcaster, the late Cairán MacMathúna, which I believe illustrates the incredible generosity of the people who gave us our raw material to work with.
He was recording an old fiddle player in Kerry, a poor small farmer with a few acres and a handful of cattle.
At the end of the session Ciarán said; "There is the matter of a small recording fee".
The old man thought for few seconds, then said; "I have no money in the house at present, but I'm taking a bullock to the market tomorrow; will it be all right if I pay you then?"
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: GUEST,Quango banjo
Date: 23 Jun 11 - 07:25 PM

I remember as an Irish student on summer holidays working on the motorways down in Devon in 1974(?)and living in a watchmans hut to save any money i could. I visited Peter Kennedy's place to research some songs and was disappointed to discover he charged a lot of money to get access to the resources. It kind of dampened my youthful enthusiasm. Interesting to discover he was rather an exploiter.


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Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 23 Jun 11 - 06:30 PM

I did, it is still a bit ambiguous - and as you pointed out, there are now 100 posts in this thread. Points have been made, debunked, redefined, and restated.

If I'm reading this correctly, Kennedy recorded this off a radio show. That point seems "legal" and "ethical".   From there it gets fuzzy as some people say he sold it, others say it was for personal use.   Selling it is purely out of the question and should have been stopped, if that actually happened.

Sorry, I am just trying to understand - somethings are getting lost in the translation and various interpretations.   No offense was meant, this is an important subject and I am only looking for clarification, not berating.


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Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Jun 11 - 06:23 PM

100 sorry lead


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Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Jun 11 - 06:22 PM

Ron , please read all the posts all will be revealed.


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Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 23 Jun 11 - 05:44 PM

For the record, I did not say that Kennedy OWNED the recording. I was trying to establish how the recording was made and used and in what context personal recordings could theoretically be made.

This is NOT just about UK law.


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Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 23 Jun 11 - 05:42 PM

I guess you know more than the rest of us.


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Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Jun 11 - 05:40 PM

If you have read right through the thread, you will see that he recorded Georgina Boyes Programme and had it for sale on his catalogue. I have already said this before but I will say it again I AM SURE Kennedy was selling my recording, and the private study, has been ADDED MORE RECENTLY.
KENNEDY, had already done it[acted imorally and illegally] at least once, see Georgina Boyes.
Ron I dont care about US law, we are talking about the UK.


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Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Jun 11 - 05:23 PM

Ron, you are wrong KENNEDY DID NOT OWN IT, the recording belonged to SWEET FOLK AND COUNTRY.
KENNEDY did not even collect the original song.


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Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Jun 11 - 05:18 PM

the exact wording is, Copyright exists in all records issued by Sweet Folk All recordings limited.
Any unauthorised broadcasting,public performance,COPYING OR RE RECORDING OF SUCH RECORDS IN ANY MANNER WHATSOEVER WILL CONSTITUTE AN INFRINGEMENT OF SUCH COPYRIGHT.
application for public perfomance licences should be adressed to PPL


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Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 23 Jun 11 - 05:16 PM

Sorry, I wrote my note before seeing Dave's post.   

I sincerely doubt that the UK law is much different from US law - you CAN make a personal copy for yourself IF YOU OWN THE RECORDING TO BEGIN WITH. You can also record OFF AIR if it for your personal use and not sold to others. This is not a violation of copyright. There is nothing unethical or immmoral about taping a radio program for personal use.


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Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Jun 11 - 05:12 PM

Jim,yes,you are right,I did criticise you and I apologise.
my opinions have changed as a result of reading different posts on the subject of Peter Kennedy on this forum,there were a number of things I did not know about.
however,despite his discourteous behaviour as regards his recording my lp without my permission and putting it on his catalogue,I still see him as a Curates Egg., partly good, partly bad, but as a result entirely spoiled


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Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 23 Jun 11 - 05:11 PM

'no, Ron, it clearly stated that on the back of the L.P.
PERMISSION HAS TO BE ASKED,end of story "

Sorry, I am not trying to be argumentative - but that is NOT the end of the story. The law is pretty specific about what you can and cannot do with copies.

You can write anything you want on the back of an LP - do not listen to on Thursdays, you must listen to track 3 in the nude, etc. - none of it is binding.

Just for discussion, could you write the EXACT wording that appears on the LP?    I'm not trying to be picky or start an argument, but this is important to understand and I do not see the posting of these words.

This is a fascinating, and important, discussion.


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Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Jun 11 - 03:39 PM

Sorry I dont see an ambiguity,as I understand that,it means that kennedy re recorded and copied the record,and constituted an infringement.
I Remember the Kingston[FightingCocks] Folk club very well, I did my first booking there.


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Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jun 11 - 03:38 PM

"I'm not sure why Dick Greenhaus is taking flak on this thread."
He isn't - he appears to be assuming that he is being blamed.
"If you know or suspect that your supplier operates in a dishonest way....."
To be fair, throughout the time I have been involved in the music there has been little or no discussion on Kennedy's behaviour for a number of reasons - influential father (friend of royalty) and aunt being not the least of them, and his tendency to threaten to resort to law whenever he thought his position was being threatened running a close second.
Whatever information I gained on his behaviour was passed on in hushed tones behind locked doors - sort of!
I really think there was very little known of his behaviour outside a fairly tight circle of people who chose - for our sins - to do nothing about it
When he died an RIP thread was opened on this forum and when I contributed a few non-complementary points amid all the eulogies, the avalanche of protests that followed left me with the feeling that I had farted in church gradually building until I began to think I might have murdered John Lennon. If my memory serves Dick/GSS, it was you who administered one of the severest kickings.
Kennedy did what he did because we let him get away with it; some were more responsible that others (five letters, starting with E and ending with S), but in truth, those closest to the fire should have put it out before it took hold and did the damage. It seems a bit smug hindsightish to point the finger at somebody who I doubt was aware of these shennanigans.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 23 Jun 11 - 03:31 PM

What it actually says on the back of "The Dunmow Flitch" is:

"Copyright exists in all recordsissued by Sweet Folk All Recordings Limited. Any unauthorised broadcasting, public performance, copying or re-recording of such records in any manner whatsoever will constitute an infringement of such copyright. Application for public performance licenses should be addrsssed to ...."

so it is obvious that permission has to be asked for the recording to be played in public, but elsewhere there is, let us say, a slight touch of ambiguity.

PS. I bought my copy from Dick himself at the Willoughby Arms in Kingston.


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Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Jun 11 - 03:20 PM

no, Ron, it clearly stated that on the back of the L.P.
PERMISSION HAS TO BE ASKED,end of story


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Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 23 Jun 11 - 02:57 PM

"The law states, for no purposes whatsoever, without permission."

You might want to check that law again. In most countries that I know of, you are allowed to make a copy for personal use - but not for sale or distribution. Otherwise VHS, DVNR, DVD-R and cassette recorders would be illegal.


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Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: Brian Peters
Date: 23 Jun 11 - 01:40 PM

I'm not sure why Dick Greenhaus is taking flak on this thread. I know Dick to be an enthusiast for traditional song who is motivated more than anything else by the desire to make rare stuff (for which there is a market so limited that any profits are tiny) available to those enthusiasts who wish to hear it. This is the same person that pulled off the previously unimaginable feat of reprinting Bronson's Traditional Tunes of the Child Ballads at an affordable price. Will Topic be held to the same high standards regarding Kennedy's 'collection' that are being demanded of Camsco?


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Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jun 11 - 11:29 AM

"Don't expect so."
Sorry; still apparently mistaking your drift.
Anybody who was ever paid to sing at a traditional type club did so using songs they/we got from traditional singers (thought about starting a list here, but have neither time space nor inclination.
Anybody who made an album of traditional songs... likewise.
Anybody who published a collection.....
Anybody who learned a song from that collection and then makes an album or takes a fee from a folk club......
Should they/we seek out the source singers or their heirs before we take the fee?
Are you proposing that traditional songs be removed from public domain?
No - MacColl never received a fee from Simon and Garfunkle or Bob Dylan - according to Martin Carthy, Dylan got the song from him on a visit to Britain.
As far as my knowledge of the affair stretches, the American singers who hit the jackpot with the song paid nobody, almost certainly claiming royalties on the "arranged by" basis.
As I said, to my knowledge MacColl never claimed nor took payment for any traditional song he collected, not even those he built up from virtually nothing, such as Alan Tyne of Harrow.
I know he paid singers like Caroline Hughes, I know all the traditional singers who were included in the Radio Ballads received BBC cheques and assume that those included on albums like 'Now Is The Time For Fishing' received fees from the record companies.
What's your point?
Dick G:
I don't think anybody here is trying to implicate you in Kennedy's dirty dealings, certainly not me.
For me the problem lies with the behaviour of the collector - 'the original sin.'
The distributor, publisher, revival singer bear no part of the blame for what this particular collector did to his sources or to those of us who feel that these songs are part of our heritage and belong to us all.
Jim Carroll


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