mudcat.org: BS: The Indigenous Peoples Outlook
Lyrics & Knowledge Personal Pages Record Shop Auction Links Radio & Media Kids Membership Help
The Mudcat Cafeawe

Post to this Thread - Sort Descending - Printer Friendly - Home


BS: The Indigenous Peoples Outlook

Lizzie Cornish 1 16 Apr 11 - 06:53 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 16 Apr 11 - 07:09 PM
pdq 16 Apr 11 - 07:19 PM
GUEST,Paul Burke 16 Apr 11 - 07:33 PM
Smokey. 16 Apr 11 - 07:44 PM
Joe_F 16 Apr 11 - 07:47 PM
Smokey. 16 Apr 11 - 08:44 PM
gnu 16 Apr 11 - 08:49 PM
Bobert 16 Apr 11 - 08:56 PM
Janie 16 Apr 11 - 08:57 PM
Goose Gander 16 Apr 11 - 08:58 PM
Smokey. 16 Apr 11 - 09:01 PM
Richard Bridge 17 Apr 11 - 03:39 AM
GUEST,Eliza 17 Apr 11 - 04:55 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 17 Apr 11 - 07:15 AM
Ed T 17 Apr 11 - 10:49 AM
katlaughing 17 Apr 11 - 10:49 AM
Dharmabum 17 Apr 11 - 11:25 AM
wysiwyg 17 Apr 11 - 11:30 AM
Ed T 17 Apr 11 - 11:33 AM
GUEST,Steamin' Willie 17 Apr 11 - 11:44 AM
Ed T 17 Apr 11 - 12:00 PM
GUEST,mg 17 Apr 11 - 04:49 PM
Richard Bridge 17 Apr 11 - 04:50 PM
gnu 17 Apr 11 - 07:30 PM
Bonzo3legs 17 Apr 11 - 07:33 PM
Janie 17 Apr 11 - 11:31 PM
Stu 18 Apr 11 - 03:53 AM
Musket 18 Apr 11 - 04:12 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 18 Apr 11 - 05:05 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 18 Apr 11 - 05:11 AM
GUEST,Suibhne Astray 18 Apr 11 - 07:49 AM
Ed T 18 Apr 11 - 07:52 AM
Bonzo3legs 18 Apr 11 - 08:02 AM
Ed T 18 Apr 11 - 08:31 AM
Bonzo3legs 18 Apr 11 - 08:48 AM
Stu 18 Apr 11 - 09:35 AM
Stringsinger 18 Apr 11 - 09:44 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 18 Apr 11 - 09:48 AM
Ed T 18 Apr 11 - 10:06 AM
Ed T 18 Apr 11 - 10:19 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 18 Apr 11 - 10:29 AM
Lox 18 Apr 11 - 10:38 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 18 Apr 11 - 10:38 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 18 Apr 11 - 11:05 AM
katlaughing 18 Apr 11 - 11:23 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 18 Apr 11 - 12:16 PM
Richard Bridge 18 Apr 11 - 12:32 PM
Musket 18 Apr 11 - 12:39 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 18 Apr 11 - 12:54 PM
GUEST,Shimrod 18 Apr 11 - 02:32 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 18 Apr 11 - 03:50 PM
Ed T 18 Apr 11 - 04:07 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 18 Apr 11 - 05:21 PM
Bonzo3legs 18 Apr 11 - 10:16 PM
J-boy 20 Apr 11 - 12:30 AM
ollaimh 20 Apr 11 - 12:59 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 20 Apr 11 - 02:47 AM
GUEST,Patsy 20 Apr 11 - 02:52 AM
Musket 20 Apr 11 - 04:56 AM
Stu 20 Apr 11 - 06:15 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 20 Apr 11 - 05:11 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 20 Apr 11 - 05:22 PM
GUEST,Shimrod 21 Apr 11 - 03:47 PM
gnu 21 Apr 11 - 04:22 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 21 Apr 11 - 04:44 PM
Ed T 21 Apr 11 - 05:44 PM
gnu 21 Apr 11 - 05:47 PM
gnu 21 Apr 11 - 06:05 PM
Ed T 21 Apr 11 - 06:33 PM
Bonzo3legs 21 Apr 11 - 06:57 PM
Ed T 21 Apr 11 - 08:14 PM
gnu 22 Apr 11 - 09:21 AM
Ed T 22 Apr 11 - 01:15 PM
Ed T 22 Apr 11 - 01:33 PM
gnu 22 Apr 11 - 02:01 PM
Ed T 22 Apr 11 - 04:45 PM
gnu 22 Apr 11 - 04:48 PM
ollaimh 24 Apr 11 - 03:26 PM
Mrrzy 24 Apr 11 - 03:46 PM
gnu 24 Apr 11 - 04:11 PM
Bonzo3legs 24 Apr 11 - 04:35 PM
GUEST,mg 24 Apr 11 - 05:18 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 24 Apr 11 - 05:48 PM
Lyrics & Knowledge Search [Advanced]
DT  Forum
Sort (Forum) by:relevance date
DT Lyrics:








Subject: BS: The Indigenous Peoples Outlook
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 06:53 PM

Why, when the Indigenous People of this planet live in total harmony with Mother Nature, are they kept down by those who consider themselves to be the leaders of the world, still, to this day?

This is the most beautiful video......filled with such wisdom.....
'We Are All One'


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The Indigenous Peoples Outlook
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 07:09 PM

The indigenous Tsuu T'ina First Nation bordering Calgary have a big Casino, including a no-limit room; "Grey Eagle," with "fine dining" at their grille. "Live in total harmony" with Mother who?
www.greyeaglecasino.ca/about_us.html


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The Indigenous Peoples Outlook
From: pdq
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 07:19 PM

I'm not sure this fits perfectly, but...

                                                         http://www.mydesert.com/article/20110328/NEWS01/103280316/Families-sick-fouled-air


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The Indigenous Peoples Outlook
From: GUEST,Paul Burke
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 07:33 PM

I've a sort of feeling that I might be indigenous. I'm a native too, and ethnic.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The Indigenous Peoples Outlook
From: Smokey.
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 07:44 PM

Where did the world's non-indigenous people come from?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The Indigenous Peoples Outlook
From: Joe_F
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 07:47 PM

14000 years is a long time on the scale of European colonization of the Americas, but a very short time on the scale of the human species. Everyone in the Western Hemisphere is descended from *fairly* recent immigrants.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The Indigenous Peoples Outlook
From: Smokey.
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 08:44 PM

I saw "the Indigenous People of this planet" and couldn't resist.. I agree with the sentiment of the video.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The Indigenous Peoples Outlook
From: gnu
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 08:49 PM

I get rather pissed about this subject. I have had some of my "native" brothers tell me that "Native Americans" welcomed the diseased and downtrodden Eurpoeans and taught them how to fish and hunt and survive in this country... bullshit.

The Europeans brought technology in farming, weaponry, industry and other to North America. It is indeed a sordid history on many counts. No doubt it has been horrific on many counts. However, when I am told that the indigenous peoples would have been far better off if "the white man" had never came... fuck that load of turnips. When I am told they own all the land because they were here first, gimme a break eh? If they weren't using the land and had never set foot on it how the fuck could they own it?

They'd like to own it now... after the Europeans developed it.

Give you an example. Here, they wanted $6B in compensation. They were given a shitload of coin and the government built a shitload of lumber roads and gave them a shitload of timber rights. They harvested... hired a whack of Europeans... made coin... sold the equipment.

Another example... natives hold their "traditional" moose hunt starting on September 15...days ahead of moose season for Europeans. Nobody ever hunted moose here in the fall back before "laws" as it was just stupid. Somehow, the Natives have adopted the European calendar and a date upon which they shoot, with firearms, every fucking moose in sight... and sell the meat for $2.50 a pound (along with the salmon) to Europeans.

Lets talk lobster. Great environmentalists the Natives eh? They decided the seasons and size limits were shite. So, just like the moose, they go out before the Europeans and catch lobster, undersize as well, and sell them cheap.

Harmony with nature? Bullshit. HarMONEY.

It all sounds tragically well and good when that "Indian" drops a tear but that "Indian" is you and me. And, trust me, WE are all in this together. The native peoples are NOT downtrodden and they are not "special" environmentally. As a matter of fact, I view their environmental practices that I have witnessed as just the opposite.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The Indigenous Peoples Outlook
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 08:56 PM

When ol' hippies are considered "indigenous" maybe I'll have a comment but I think I'll just have to leave this alone...

B;~)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The Indigenous Peoples Outlook
From: Janie
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 08:57 PM

Lizzie, I find the 19th century-ish romantic stereotyping expressed in your opening statement patronizing and offensive, even though I don't believe that is your intent.

Good foil to Lizzie's link, pdq.

People are people. Some "get" the need for sound environmental protections and practices to increase the probability of long-term survival of current life forms on earth, including humans, and some don't. It doesn't have anything to do with race, ethnicity, or "indigenisity."


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The Indigenous Peoples Outlook
From: Goose Gander
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 08:58 PM

You'll have to mention religion if you really want to get this thread up and running . . .


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The Indigenous Peoples Outlook
From: Smokey.
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 09:01 PM

The Normans have similar problems with us.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The Indigenous Peoples Outlook
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 03:39 AM

I think Lizzie means "used to". An example of not paying attention when being taught English grammar.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The Indigenous Peoples Outlook
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 04:55 AM

Many indigenous African tribes practised fetishism and magic involving the most ghastly atrocities, a few still do. Aggression and hostility between rival groups resulting in brutal and tragic massacres were common, and still occur. Traditions in childbirth practices and 'curing' diseases resulted in countless deaths (and still do) While not necessarily harming their environment, these indigenous peoples are NOT necessarily the innocent Children of Eden one might think. The coming of the Europeans, admittedly with their own agenda of commercial gain and religious Christian and Muslim fervour, has at least benefitted to a great extent the daily lives of the population. I know this for a fact as I have travelled about Africa and seen it for myself.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The Indigenous Peoples Outlook
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 07:15 AM

Sorry guys, I simply thought that many would have found the words and wisdom on the video I posted hugely honest and felt a deep desire to help spread those very words around the world.

I never expected what has happened in this thread, and it saddens me.

There is good and bad everywhere. Many indigenous people have been exploited to almost extinction and yes, some have ended up becoming no better than those who did this to them...

I'm talking about how they live in harmony with the planet. Many still do, right around the world, and they have so very much to teach us. As to the customs of some tribes around the planet, I agree, what happens is often horrific, but it was the sense of being in touch with nature, leaving only footprints that I was talking about.

Anyway, no matter...it was a mistake to start this thread, I see that now.

Apologies.

Back to life as normal where the arrogant ones make the arrogant decisions about Mother Earth, never even seeing Her as that in the first place.

There are many videos out there of Indigenous People trying their hardest to get people to unite, to love the planet as they do. They are trying their best, it is all they can do. They are trying to get their voices heard above all the shite name calling that goes on....

I hear THEIR voices, not some of the ones in here.

And I know the words in that video are The Truth.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The Indigenous Peoples Outlook
From: Ed T
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 10:49 AM

Thank you Lizzie Cornish for posting your information. I suspect more than a few understand where you are coming from in posting it.

My perspective:

Our distant forefathers had a deep thirst for knowledge of astronomy, mathematics and universal laws that can be traced back to the dawn of man. They also sought to understand how they, as individuals and societies, fit within the harmony and rhythms of nature (and its species), with the flow of the seasons, with the ebb and flow of the tides, with the movements of the planets and stars, and with nature (and various Gods) that held power over their existence.

Today, few societies pay much attention to the human connections with nature and to "Mother Earth". The emphasis is more towards establishing mans dominion over nature. (We are beginning to see the results of the that approach).

Most societies and individuals have lost the sense of "connection" with nature, as if man is separate or supreme. In recent years some ecologists recognize the inter-related nature of all life on our planet, and warn us of "the folly of our ways" (most of the warnings fall on deaf ears). Surprisingly, this inter-connection with nature was recognized by many supposedly "simple native cultures" around the world thousands of years ago.

For past indigenous hunter-gatherer societies, respect of nature and Mother Earth was integral to their culture and religions. They saw the need to live in harmony with nature. This concept remains an important element of many indigenous societies, and what remains of their religions.

Most major religions (of the conquers) introduced the concept that man is above other species and superior to other species, being "separate" from the Earth. This has been adopted by today's society that with a growing urban populations that has forgotten its place in nature. For example, the importance of wilderness areas t our climate is secondary to maintaining a standard of living. When we look at the various Christian teachings few conveys the message of the Christian God, "Be responsible for fish in the sea and birds in the air, for every living thing that moves on the face of Earth.

However, central to most indigenous societies (and remaining religions) is the clear and often repeated message that man must live in harmony with nature and respect its entire species.

It is illogical to downplay the impact of the majority cultures on the few remaining indigenous peoples. Most have seen the impacts of being conquered, separated and pushed aside and off their land, culturally (and in many other ways) assimilated, marginalized, discriminated against, subjected to poverty, and low levels of health care and education. After centuries of such treatment, is it surprising that many try to be successful by being more like us?

After this disgraceful unhumane history, in many countries (and many of them Christian, should we not expect some change? Should we now add an additional indignity on these people by criticizing the few (or, even many) who try to act and behave like us, those in the dominant society that we portray in all of our media as successful?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The Indigenous Peoples Outlook
From: katlaughing
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 10:49 AM

Lizzie, well meant, but these days, I think there are just people who are all trying to love the planet, etc. i.e., it's not limited to just "indigenous" people. To be sure, there was some good management due to migrations, controlled burning, careful hunting, etc., but those days ended when reservations were established, etc. There are vast differences between them nowadays, too. No generalisations fit. There are wealthy tribes raking in the dough ala the "white man" in casinos, etc. and there are still dirt poor reservations where people live a depressed and poverty stricken life.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The Indigenous Peoples Outlook
From: Dharmabum
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 11:25 AM

Thank you Lizzie for the link to that video.
It was a nice way to start my day.
I passed it on to some folks who'll appreciate it.

   DB.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The Indigenous Peoples Outlook
From: wysiwyg
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 11:30 AM

(LC, just a quick note in a crazy-busy week.... prompted by the thread title, and hoping you'll take it (friendly) as meant.

"The Indigenous Peoples Outlook"

No indigneous people I know hold a totally shared outlook, on anything, or think of themselves, so much anymore, as THE indigenous people.... each group may think of itself as a Nation, or a People.... but with tech communications so broad now, most of the people who consider themselves "indigenous" are aware that their nation or people are one of many, with whom they may or may not share outlook, goals, etc., and among whom there are many different situations they are facing.

LC, please know that I am SURE that none of that was on your mind when you started the thread... but it is helpful to know, sometimes, how one's words come across, emblazoned on a threadlist.)

~Susan


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The Indigenous Peoples Outlook
From: Ed T
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 11:33 AM

""No indigneous people I know hold a totally shared outlook, on anything""

Maybe it could also be said that, "No people hold a totally shared outlook, on anything":)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The Indigenous Peoples Outlook
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 11:44 AM

Lizzie says she is saddened because she started a post supposedly positive and it didn't get the reaction she wanted.

Tough.

You set up a barrier between those you consider indigenous and those who run the joint. Well those who run The joint are indigenous too. I am saddened when people start rattling on about us and them, and this thread sets out to do just that. Albeit using a subject matter that is the latest rather than the worst example of migrancy upsetting an otherwise stable society.

By moaning about, say native Americans being infiltrated by Westerners and nothing good coming of it is no better than Cameron and others moaning about present day immigration in The Uk.

I am indigenous, mainly to Derbyshire but go back a few generations and you get Staffordshire and Scotland in the equation it seems. And my views seem to get set upon by many of those supporting the thrust of this thread.

Funny that.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The Indigenous Peoples Outlook
From: Ed T
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 12:00 PM

"And my views seem to get set upon by many of those supporting the thrust of this thread".



Does this thread actually established a "thrust"?

Considering there are only about 20 posts, it may be fair to say that the socalled "thrust" is quite minor?
:)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The Indigenous Peoples Outlook
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 04:49 PM

I think we should listen to what they have to say and acknowledge that terrible things were done to them and their lands, by people with their own terrible sufferings quite often. Most were not conquistadors..I think most people in the world were at one time peasants or serfs and just wanted enough food and shelter and an occasional Maypole dance and did not have bad intentions..in fact would have loved to live the somewhat upgraded life of indigenous people...at some point we all were..well maybe not. Sometimes people with good hearts and intentions did some truly awful things and did not see the light like the fish does not see the water. So most of us are a combination of the oppressed and the oppressor but should try to understand how things came about and salvage what is left and help whatever societies still remain to survive. And we should be respectful. mg


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The Indigenous Peoples Outlook
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 04:50 PM

Well, Lizzie makes me REALLY cross with her views that education is not necessary and that women are for motherhood not being people, but let's be fair.

The words "indigenous peoples" may not have been the best starting point, but are a useful if imprecise shorthand, and "primitive peoples" could have been seen as condescending. Lifestyles lived without the artefacts of modern (and indeed in some cases rather less than modern) "civilisations" (funny thing that "progress" only goes one way) have merits in terms of reduced impact on ecosystems.

Japan demonstrates the risks of nuclear technology. Global warming (fact not fiction) is rooted in the combustion technologies of the last two centuries. Factory ships have all but extinguished numerous ecosystems in our oceans (as have pollution).

We face an overpopulation crisis and the ability of the planet to heal itself is being overborne.

What we REALLY need is fewer people. Not my problem, I'll be dead by crisis point, but it IS coming.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The Indigenous Peoples Outlook
From: gnu
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 07:30 PM

"I think most people in the world were at one time peasants or serfs and just wanted enough food and shelter and an occasional Maypole dance and did not have bad intentions..."

That's the deal. That's my point. WE are ALL in this together. "Indigenous Peoples" are not the only ones who want a better world and they certainly don't lead the way just because some of them make videos touting their environmental superiority. My First Nations buddies are cool dudes but just a stroll down the road are guys who bang moose and leave em if they end up in tough cover.

Fact is, the ideal is laudible but the reality is real. If some say I am shitting on indigenous peoples or being negative in any way I disagree... I am being real. Anyone, red or white or polka dot, who does good for the environment is doing right. Anyone who says any group is at fault is generalizing and that's what pisses me off... to no end. And, yes, that is what I think was being said by the OP. Say all you want in the opposite, it was quite clear to me.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The Indigenous Peoples Outlook
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 07:33 PM

Tonight there is a wonderful luna llena (full moon) visible in Buenos Aires, which we saw from our taxi (driven by an Argentine indian) during our journey from Belgrano R to our hotel in the city centre.

This was a sight shared by Indians 1000 years ago or more. Who knows where they came from.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The Indigenous Peoples Outlook
From: Janie
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 11:31 PM

Well said Richard.

And well said, gnu.

Random musings:

Primitive living is also a good method to control for over-population. Lots of environmentally sound checks and balances. I don't say that flippantly or sarcastically, simply a statement of fact.

A casual perusal of Native American artifacts over time shows that Native Americans were very quick to take advantage and make use of European technologies and materials.

There is much controversy and mystery about the reasons behind the collapse of the Classic Mayan civilation, but over-population was undoubtedly a factor. At least over-population to the extent that the population density had increased, compliments of advanced agricultural technologies which made it possible, under "normal" climatological conditions for the region and the the time, to feed many more people in a much smaller area. Then along came a severe and extended period of drought.... Mind you, Mayans and Mayan culture did not disappear from the face of the earth, though what is now known as the "Mayan Civilization" did pretty much disappear. I don't think anyone would argue that the Mayan's were not indigenous.

In the end, the laws of nature prevail. Checks and balances in nature can only be avoided for so long....


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The Indigenous Peoples Outlook
From: Stu
Date: 18 Apr 11 - 03:53 AM

"When I am told they own all the land because they were here first, gimme a break eh? If they weren't using the land and had never set foot on it how the fuck could they own it? "

An here is one of the reasons history has played out the way it has. It's impossible for some people to get their head around a completely different worldview than their own. Native Americans never thought they owned the land - in their viewpoint nobody could own land as it belonged to everyone. It was one of the reasons why it was so easy to fuck them over completely (along with other issues like believing white people when they gave them their word etc).

If everyone thought like gnu does in his simplistic anglo-saxon world then we'd have conflicts all over the world like The North of Ireland, Palestine, the displacement of indigenous people in the Amazon, the Congo, the plains of Africa, Tibet etc etc

Oh, hold on - the immoral imperialist tossers are still everywhere, seeding their capitalist shite as if it was the only way of viewing the world . . . and of course turning it to their own advantage at the expense of the way of life of others.

Business as usual then!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The Indigenous Peoples Outlook
From: Musket
Date: 18 Apr 11 - 04:12 AM

Hang on...

I'm a capitalist. Must be, I own property and get a living out of it. Not so much at the expense of others, but by giving others somewhere to live.

Without a capitalist business structure, you cannot afford to enact the social programs everybody accuses successive governments of betraying.

Being labelled as Anglo Saxon does mean that in living memory our governments had an imperialist view. Worse, when that outlook was discarded, the transition for many countries was not our finest hour, nor indeed the finest hour of those who took over.

But to think somebody born post empire should have their actions judged as such is rather silly if you ask me.

Who admits to being Imperialist? Who IS imperialist? Are you saying everybody is either imperialist or marxist?

What about the 99.9998% of the world's people who express views that are neither at one extreme or the other?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The Indigenous Peoples Outlook
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 18 Apr 11 - 05:05 AM

Thank you, Sugarfoot Jack and others, for understanding. Nothing else in here matters, for these messages are too important. We are running out of time, so fast...

Here again is my orignial link, but this time I'm adding the words below. I hope I've got them all correct, listened to it a dozen times or more...and with each listening I hear their wisdom even louder.

'We Are All One' - The Words of Chief Oren Lyons and Red Crow Westerman

"When The European first came here, Columbus, we could drink out of any river. If the Europeans had lived the Indian way when they came, we'd still be drinking all the water because the water is sacred, the air is sacred."

"Our DNA is the made of the same DNA as the Tree. The tree breathes what we exhale. When the tree exhales we need what the tree exhales, so..we have a common destiny with the tree."

"We are all from the Earth and when earth, the water, the atmosphere is corrupted, then it will create its own reaction. Mother is reacting."

"And the world has become, quote, 'a market' and it's this market that we have to deal with and it's this idea of boundless and endless resources. And when you say 'resources' you're talking about our relatives, talking about our family. For sure our family, it's not a resource, it's a family. It requires all the respect."

"The structure of the world itself is such, it functions on natural law and the natural law is a *powerful* regenerative process. There's a process of regeneration that continues and grows and is endless, it's absolutely endless, if everyone agrees to the law and follows the law. But, if you challenge the law and you think you're going to change the law then you're bound to failure. And then that failure will be a lot of pain, because the natural law has no mercy, it is only the law."

"The Earth is all powerful. It wasn't made here for human beings, it's said we're a part of it. But we don't have to be here because the Earth has its own process. And if it comes to the point where you destroy yourself as human beings and you destroy Life and finally leave this Earth, Earth's not going to disappear, there's not going to be an end of the world. That's really a very interesting concept to us. No, the world won't end, people's life on it will. So it's not the end of the world you're talking about, it's the end of us. And the world, no matter what damage you think you've done to it, will regenerate, will re-green, will re-do everything that was here at one time, except there won't be any people, because, it's got all the time in the world."

"As you're coming down the final stretch, and you're racing towards the finish, and there is the stone wall, and you're not pulling your horse, you're not stopping, you're in fact accelerating, that's the way I see the use of what you call resources. You're using them faster than they're reproducing and you're headed towards that disaster and none of you are pulling your horse. And every day that you don't do what's right is a day that you've lost an option. And you are losing your options every day."

"No tree grows by itself. A tree is a community. Certain trees, certain plants, will gather around certain trees, and certain medicines will gather around those certain plants. So that if you kill all the trees, if you cut all the trees, then you're destroying the community. You're not just destroying a tree, you're destroying a whole community that surrounds it and thrives on it, and that may be very important medicine for people or for animals. "

"So you've lost a community. And if you clear-cut, which is what's happening in America and Canada a great deal these days and I guess around the world, then you're really a *very* destructive force. And simply replanting trees is not replanting community. You lost a lot in the process. You don't understand that. You will. And that understanding comes in a very difficult manner."

"And of the 100 dominant economic units in the world today, the 100 largest economic units, and that's the word they used was 'units'...49 are Countries and 51 are Corporations. Now, digest that for a second. What does that mean? It means that Corporations are the driving force of decision-making today and Corporations are not concerned with human rights, they're not concerned with human life, they're not even concerned with a proper wage for the people that are working for them. So what kind of decisions are going to be made on our behalf by this economic power, these Corporate States, I call them? Ohhh, there's going to be hell to pay, as they say, for some of the things that are going on now. So I think that people have to become aware and become awake and not.....and power is always in the people's hands, their authority. They need to come of One Mind and they need to challenge the values that are being chucked at them today, because this has become a consumer society. It's driven by economics, it's not driven by common sense."

"You know, it's not good sense to follow somebody, just because. Why? You can't give me an answer why you follow him. But if he were going to do something like jumping off a cliff would you follow him? Would you do that? Use your sense, use your common sense. Everybody should be their own leader. In other words, do your thinking for yourself."

"And we look about and we look about for allies. We look about for friends. We look about for people who will understand and agree with those mandates of peace. We are now placing in your hands ALL Life, and it is your responsibility and it is your duty to look after ALL Life. And so, when he was speaking like that, he wasn't talking about our aunts and our uncles and our cousins and our fathers and our mothers, he was talking about ALL Life. He was talking about the trees, he was talking about the fish, the animals, every thing that grows, every thing with life, because, it is, a Family."


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The Indigenous Peoples Outlook
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 18 Apr 11 - 05:11 AM

Chief Oren Lyons

Floyd Red Crow Westerman


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The Indigenous Peoples Outlook
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 18 Apr 11 - 07:49 AM

Aren't Chavs Indigenous Peoples too? Or do all truly indigenous peoples have to qualify as benign wise-cracking proto-hippy tree-huggers before they pass the test? Seems as pointless as a search for the true Pure Folk, and just as patronising.

Mother Earth nurtures us all; she pours forth her fecund bounty on the shelves of ALDI and gives up her precious natural resources so the poor may cluster round their chimney-breast mounted plasma-screen TVs whilst the rich roam freely over the blasted remnants of our once Green and Pleasant countryside with its imagined ghost villages of second-homes and resurrected folk-customs.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The Indigenous Peoples Outlook
From: Ed T
Date: 18 Apr 11 - 07:52 AM

Gnu,
Using the unwise and wasteful act of one person you know down the road, to generalize on a group of people does not seem to make much sense to me, no matter how you position it.

If that were the case, the number of assholes (aka asswholes:)) in the world would take a huge leap upward(and, I suspect we would all be assholes, by association).

Another perspective would be to take a deeper look into the guiding principles of a scoiety, rather than using the acts of one (or more) detatched individual or situation.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The Indigenous Peoples Outlook
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 18 Apr 11 - 08:02 AM

What??


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The Indigenous Peoples Outlook
From: Ed T
Date: 18 Apr 11 - 08:31 AM

Below are a couple of interesting sites:


Indigenous Peoples Biodiversity Information Network

State of World's Indigenous Peoples

UNITED NATIONS DECLARATION ON


Some history


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The Indigenous Peoples Outlook
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 18 Apr 11 - 08:48 AM

In Argentina, many indian ladies are employed as live-in maids. I could do with one at home!!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The Indigenous Peoples Outlook
From: Stu
Date: 18 Apr 11 - 09:35 AM

"But to think somebody born post empire should have their actions judged as such is rather silly if you ask me. "

Ah, so wipe the slate clean, zero collective responsibility for the wrongs of our fathers and everything's hunky dory?

Although that point of view is undoubtedly prevalent in whatever parallel universe the petty bourgeoisie inhabit within their well-insulated heads the fact of the matter is out in the real world (a world away, no doubt) people are living their lives with the consequences of our forefathers actions still influencing their ability to live their lives how they see fit, even if it doesn't fit in with the consumerist doctrines of modern 'democracies'.

How has this come about? Our capitalist education systems teaches a version of history that makes out as if rich, aggressive and scarily dispassionate white men are the pinnacle of civilised society, the natural heirs to the Christian ethic of bringing hard work, irrelevant religions and modern society to the noble savage. Even the white European and his descendants own atrocities against their own people (see the history of the British Isle for instance) are served up as necessary casualties limping onward to the bright light of pure consumerist culture. Complete shite of the highest order of course, but a massive number of people still believe it because they know no better (or couldn't give a toss).

Even the English sit back and take the wrongs visited on them by a ruling elite as part of the inevitable march to consumerism. For instance, the Acts of Enclosure were inflicted on ordinary English people by the same ruling classes who had been happily disenfranchising Ireland and clearing Scotland of their working people. But in England this is still taught as being some major milestone in the establishment of the modern economy; it was of course, but at what cost? Why is this appalling act of theft not seen as a major disaster for the ordinary working man and woman?

Is it because if we did question these acts we might realise the behaviour of our glorious empire was frequently morally indefensible? Or should we deny we have an obligation to learn from the mistakes of our fathers and a responsibility to those who suffer the consequences? Or is that just for the Germans?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The Indigenous Peoples Outlook
From: Stringsinger
Date: 18 Apr 11 - 09:44 AM

Fortunately, the agenda by so-called "white" people is being replaced by a world community that is increasingly African, Hispanic and Asian. These racial classifications and distinctions are becoming diminished by more accurate scientific information about them. These distinctions are being determined to be arbitrary and false.

Mankind is descended from remnants of first hominids from Africa.

Too often, culture is being defined by religion and pseudo race classifications.

We are all indigenous people and we must learn to respect each other accordingly.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The Indigenous Peoples Outlook
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 18 Apr 11 - 09:48 AM

Floyd Red Crow Westerman - Talking about 'Reservation Concentration Camps'

He goes on to say that he felt Hitler took the idea from what America had done. Very interesting video. Ed, thanks for your links.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The Indigenous Peoples Outlook
From: Ed T
Date: 18 Apr 11 - 10:06 AM

defining Indigenous peoples


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The Indigenous Peoples Outlook
From: Ed T
Date: 18 Apr 11 - 10:19 AM

There is conjecture to the cause of the fate of Mayans. If it were over-population and drought, one can hardly blame the Mayans for changes in climate (in a localized area) and an increased birth rate.
I suspect birth control (outside of killing folks and just not doing it) was less of an option in their time than it is today?

In those times, I suspect population growth was mostly controlled by hunger, (predation, disease, and enemies. Producing their own food (and reducing relyance on wild species) and being good in battle likely lowered some of these variables.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The Indigenous Peoples Outlook
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 18 Apr 11 - 10:29 AM

Taken from the video below:

"Two Brazilian Indians from the Raposa-Serra do Sol indigenous area talk about their lands and lives.

Raposa-Serra do Sol is currently under threat from rice farmers who have waged a campaign of violence against the Indians."

'No People Is Better Than Any Other'


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The Indigenous Peoples Outlook
From: Lox
Date: 18 Apr 11 - 10:38 AM

I think what Gnu means is that he thinks Native Americans want HIS money.

Because after all, Native Americans have a history of conquering, pillaging, stealing, enslaving and utterly decimating the populations of other races.

So their motivation must be greed.


Get the wagons in a ring folks.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The Indigenous Peoples Outlook
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 18 Apr 11 - 10:38 AM

And from that link below:
"What will one tribe have to do to save everything they know?
UPDATE: Victory! The Dongria Kondh have stopped Vedanta from mining their sacred mountain

The Real Avatar

'Sacred' is a word rarely used in our language these days, because we have let go of our connection to the Earth. We need to bring it back into everyday use.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The Indigenous Peoples Outlook
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 18 Apr 11 - 11:05 AM

Here, Oren talks of the connectionn formed to Mother Earth through ceremony...and how we have lost that. He also says that our generation is the one that has stood by and watch all that has happened, happen. And I guess he's dead right, because if we'd all stood together, way back and said "ENOUGH!" then we might be in a far better place now.

Chief Oren Lyons on the Importance of Ceremony


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The Indigenous Peoples Outlook
From: katlaughing
Date: 18 Apr 11 - 11:23 AM

I don't know where "Oren" has been, but there are many, many of us who have NOT lost our connection to Mother Earth and have had our own ceremonies most of our lifetimes. One does not have to be Native American for such qualities, though it did please me once when an NDN friend told me my heart was "red."

Fingerpointing isn't going to do much to engender participation. We must learn to honour the qualities which are common amongst us and combine for greater efficacy.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The Indigenous Peoples Outlook
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 18 Apr 11 - 12:16 PM

kat, come on, you are pretty much in the minority. If I stood down in Torquay, trying to get the population to listen to Oren's message, most of them wouldn't want to, and wouldn't really understand it either, to be honest.....and that would go for most towns/cities in this country.

We've become disconnected from *each other* let alone Mother Nature.

Yes, of course there are many people who care about the planet, but trust me, on the day Greenpeace came to town, here, they sure struggled to raise any enthusiasm whatsoever.

There is however, nothing wrong in trying the best we can to spread the message out as far as possible, without getting all uppity about it. Oren Lyons is doing all he can, surely helping him is not a problem, is it?

What saddens me is the sad resignation in his eyes, because he knows....

And if you watch him talking at that GAI Conference, back in 2010, he recalls the last time he was talking like that, 9 years back, saying even then, that time was running out so fast..and now, here he was, back once more, and 9 years have gone, been lost....so little time left, so much time wasted.

Sadly, those who ARE connected to the Mother Earth are in the minority. What has to change, to save us all, is to turn that into a majority.

This is not about anyone pointing fingers at anyone else..it is merely me providing videos for otehrs to take out to wherever they may so choose. Nothing more. I want these words to reach the majority, that is all.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The Indigenous Peoples Outlook
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 18 Apr 11 - 12:32 PM

Oh dear, and it all started so, well, almost reasonably and rationally.

Earth mother my eye and Betty Martin!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The Indigenous Peoples Outlook
From: Musket
Date: 18 Apr 11 - 12:39 PM

I'm getting a bit confused here.

Lizzie reprinted her original post and thanked those who understood her point, and stated that as time appears to be running out, nothing else matters.

Err.. it does, sorry.

My view matters, your view matters, Sugarfoot Jack's view matters too, even if I do refuse to apologise for the actions of my forefathers.

And my view is that when I hear phrases such as mother earth, GAI, Greenpeace, mother nature (is there a difference?) and being "connected" I am reminded of an acronym GPs have been known to put cryptically on patient notes. GROLIES. (Guardian reader of limited intelligence in ethnic skirt.)

Oh, and I suppose the "petty bourgeoisie" as Sugarfoot Jack seems to think anybody who disagrees with him is, do care about the planet. You don't have to hug trees and wring your hands in order to care. Recycling, using the bike rather than the car where possible, growing your own veg, buying from the local farm shop, energy efficient lighting, solar panels on the roof, waste not want not etc etc. Not exactly the actions of not caring, yet I certainly identify with those who are being demonised here.

Luckily, I wont get a complex because it appears I am in the majority.

Time for a beer then. Pip Pip.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The Indigenous Peoples Outlook
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 18 Apr 11 - 12:54 PM

No-one is being demonised.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The Indigenous Peoples Outlook
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 18 Apr 11 - 02:32 PM

Lizzie,

I think we've been over this before. When Anatomically Modern Humans moved out of Africa around 50,000 years ago they caused HAVOC. They exterminated the megafauna of five continents and they certainly didn't live in harmony with their environments! Some groups learned how to do this - but by no means all.

In addition many indigenous groups indulged in persistent and deadly warfare with their neighbours. North America was a hot bed of savage warfare for centuries: mass murder, rape, scalping and torture were rife. After the European influx many tribes saw European weapons as ideal tools to slaughter their neighbours with. Tribes frequently signed up as mercenaries so that they could batter their enemies more efficiently and right up to the reservation period they hated their 'traditional' enemies more that they did the white man.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The Indigenous Peoples Outlook
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 18 Apr 11 - 03:50 PM

Gee, Shimrod, you are destroying Lizzie's comfortable little beliefs.

Her idea of a pastoral, happy, peaceful society, living without aggression and greed, has been dream for many centuries.

History. however, shows us that Mankind is naturally warlike, aggressive and grasping; I see little evidence of an evolutionary change toward a nature in harmony with Mother Nature, or any other imagined 'deity'. Peace exists as a result of fear of consequences.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The Indigenous Peoples Outlook
From: Ed T
Date: 18 Apr 11 - 04:07 PM

""Peace exists as a result of fear of consequences.""

If it were only that simple:)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The Indigenous Peoples Outlook
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 18 Apr 11 - 05:21 PM

My poem "Land Rights"


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The Indigenous Peoples Outlook
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 18 Apr 11 - 10:16 PM

In Agentina, the indians commute by bus and train, most of everyone else drives. The volume of traffic on Saturday night has to be seen to be believed on the autopistas around Buenos Aires.

My wife bought a wonderful knitted hat - very colourful, from a very nice indian lady in Calle Florida today. They don't seem to do tango dancing though.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The Indigenous Peoples Outlook
From: J-boy
Date: 20 Apr 11 - 12:30 AM

There is no such thing nor has there ever been a "Noble Savage". The term was coined long ago by conquerors who felt a need(born out of guilt perhaps) to romanticize the people they plundered.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The Indigenous Peoples Outlook
From: ollaimh
Date: 20 Apr 11 - 12:59 AM

north american natives were subjected to genocide and crimes aginst humanity, and still do not recieve fairness in the legal syatem or in most areas of endeavour. a little justice and a lot less whineing about natives wanting your money would be nice. perhaps thats too much for capitalist raised people.

we still have generation of natives who were forced into the residential shools where they were although they were legally taken in a wards of several churches. mainly catholic anglican presbyterian and methodist churches. and these churches were given their power by the state, they were deprived of the necessities of life and deprived fo basic health care untill the late seventies in canada and the usa. they had a death rate over fifty per cent over the century and a half of these schools--for each class!!

this is horriffic for people to grow up in so a little sympathy is in prder and a lot less nasty bad mouthing about casinos or pretending that anyone in darby shire has been through this malestrom. those making these awfull ignorant remarks are dehumanized and soulless. the product of centuries of military capitalism that has caused much suffering and is destroying the viability of life on earth.

if you listened to natives you'd fimd them among the most firgiving and honest people on earth--with a lot to teach the jaded naysayers of militarism


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The Indigenous Peoples Outlook
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 20 Apr 11 - 02:47 AM

Thank you, ollaimh. The Floyd Red Crow Westerman 'reservation concentration camps' link above speaks of just what you have written.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The Indigenous Peoples Outlook
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 20 Apr 11 - 02:52 AM

The Indigenous Peoples Outlook on the Isle of Wight is very hard to understand especialy if you are originally from the Mainland. Once you are accepted and not seen as being another 'Grockle (tourist)' you are fine. I did have a giggle looking at the local paper 'The County Press' especially after the recent thread on 'chavs' I notice they have ALDI and LIDL shops popping up there, is this a downward slide for them I wonder?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The Indigenous Peoples Outlook
From: Musket
Date: 20 Apr 11 - 04:56 AM

Floyd Westerman wrote a powerful song called Quiet Desperation. I note that many see this as a cry of the indigenous Americans or whatever you call them these days.

I sing that song as a result of seeing people on the streets, carrier bag handlers, Wetherspoons regulars and Sally Army guests.

A cry to belong is not the exclusive right of heritage. I drive past an immigration removal centre attached to a local prison and find myself wondering if I could ever comprehend what must be going through the heads of many of those incarcerated there.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The Indigenous Peoples Outlook
From: Stu
Date: 20 Apr 11 - 06:15 AM

Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee should be required reading in every school on the planet; it's a depressing and damning indictment of greed and self-interest driving the destruction of a continent-wide group of cultures.

I was lucky enough last year to be in South Dakota and met several native Americans and see their culture first-hand. Part of that experience was a trip to the Crazy Hose Monument in the Black Hills (Time dictated it was there or Mount Rushmore. No contest). It was truly inspirational to see how these people refuse to be victims any longer; indeed as I sit here a small piece of the mountain being sculpted by Korczak's children into the Crazy Horse Monument sits on my desk to remind me of the ability to triumph over adversity with dignity and a commitment to truthfulness. They are building a cultural centre there and have refused federal funding; memories are long, scars are deep in this part of the world and the Lakota remember the lies of the federal government regarding the Black Hills so they are creating this entire complex on their own terms. Meanwhile, just down the road Pine Ridge is still home to people in desperate poverty and living a third world existence, although many are helping themselves.

But then the fuckers in charge are still selling out for profit and greed all over the world. We sit back whilst China essentially destroys Tibet, we happily consume the palm oil products which are the result of flattening large areas of pristine rainforest inhabited by isolated tribes and rare wildlife.

I sat one night in a bar in a small town in North Dakota and met a white man there who had taught on Pine Ridge for 30 years, art and English. He was a 'spirit rider' and had been accepted as such by the tribe. It was a fascinating couple of hours conversation and that man opened my eyes wider than ever before.

It'll never end because there are to many wankers in charge.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The Indigenous Peoples Outlook
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 20 Apr 11 - 05:11 PM

As I've suggested here, the United Nations should finally respect land rights, make all economic immigration illegal from now on, and help genuine asylum seekers to their nearest safe nation.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The Indigenous Peoples Outlook
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 20 Apr 11 - 05:22 PM

'Bury My Heart At Wounded Knee' - Part 1 - Youtube

(links to all other parts are via this link)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The Indigenous Peoples Outlook
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 21 Apr 11 - 03:47 PM

Yes, I read 'Bury My Heart At Wounded Knee' when it first came out c. 1970 and I was shocked at the injustices that it depicted being meted out to Native Americans in the 19th century. Several years later I saw the film 'Dances With Wolves' about how Kevin Coster bonded with the 'noble' Sioux, at one point tangling with the 'nasty' Pawnee who were beyond redemption because they had acted as mercenaries for the White Man.

The I read a book called 'The Pawnee Indians'(first pub. 1951) by George E. Hyde - an American historian with extensive knowledge of the histories of several Native American tribes.

The Pawnees lived in the valley of the Platte River in what is now Nebraska. They had arrived there centuries before the Sioux and lived in earth lodge villages. Their economy was a mixture of farming and buffalo hunting. In the late 18th century they began to have extensive contact with Europeans and were decimated by European diseases - to which they had no immunity. During this period, and on into the 19th century, the Sioux preyed on them mercilessly. While the Pawnee struggled with disease the Sioux added to their misery by raiding their villages, stealing their horse herds and preventing them from farming and hunting. By the time that the US Cavalry arrived and offered the Pawnee the opportunity to get some revenge they seized on it and signed up as mercenaries.

It wasn't just the White Man who was mean to the indigenous people of North America - the indigenous people were mean to each other!!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The Indigenous Peoples Outlook
From: gnu
Date: 21 Apr 11 - 04:22 PM

"and still do not recieve fairness in the legal syatem or in most areas of endeavour"

Shitting bull. The courts of Canada are not corrupt any more for the Red Man as for the White Man. In most areas of endeavour, the Red Man has far more advantages the the White Man... free education, priority for government jobs, grants of money for starting businesses, licenses, quotas and free equipment for fishing, lumbering... and so on. They are NOT at a disadvantage. They have the long end of the stick and, in MANY cases, are using that stick to beat up the poor Whites who fish, lumber, hunt... under the laws and abide by those laws.

I can take you up country and show you Whites livin in squalor and take you up country and show you Reds livin well paid for by the Whites. It should NOT be about Red and White but tell that to the Whites who are livin in squalor and still have to pay sales tax on everything they can barely afford to buy, especially when they can't compete with the Red Man because he is subsidised by the White Man's tax dollars.

Come on eh? I think some a youse really don't know what goes on in the back country. It ain't pretty for the Reds or the Whites, but to say the Red Man is being downtrodden??? ahhh, not around here.

Before I get called racist or whatever, I got friends on both sides and I know assholes on both sides. The real assholes are the politicians and big business who play the assholes up country to their advantage. I could tell ya stories.

As for the environment, money talks and bullshit walks... red, white or purple polka dot.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The Indigenous Peoples Outlook
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 21 Apr 11 - 04:44 PM

Not all is sweet for the Indians in Alberta.
Poor schools, poor land, bad administration by tribal leaders who lack education and business sense, no leadership from the provincial government, and a high incidence of alcohol and drug abuse- much like inner city white/hispanic/black ghettos.
And bigoted whites who only pay lip service to integration and equality of opportunity.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The Indigenous Peoples Outlook
From: Ed T
Date: 21 Apr 11 - 05:44 PM

Gnu, There are relatively few native peoples in Atlantic Canada, compared to the rest of Canada. And, fortunately they do not live in remote communities, like in the rest of Canada. Also, while there was discrimination, Atlantic Canada's native community never saw discrimination anywhere like many other parts of Canada, like Q states.

That is why conditions that you see, are very much different from other parts of Canada, where some live in third world conditions. But, do not be fooled into thinking what you see is reflective of other areas of Canada.

I have travelled to most communities in Atlantic Canada. Thanks to EI (plenty of it to go around, with little work), and other social programs, most people don't have it too bad, except if they choose different, or are impacted by substance abuse.

Atlantic Canadians should be proud that it's native communities lare not like the poor conditions in other areas, rather than what you seem to puting forward.

Yes, native Canadians have communal fishing rights, special fishing and hunting rights and quotas, and unique tax breaks. The reason for most of that is Britain signed agreements to provide special access to resources. They did so to avoid conflicts with a significant military force at that time.

Canada tried for years to ignore these valid treaties Eventually, many were deemed valid by the highest courts in Canada. Because the native communities were denied these rights (and access to resources) for hundreds of years by Canada, Canada's Supreme court ordered the government to assist these communities to establish their rightful place in resource industries the valid treaties promised (native rights are mostly seen as communal, not individual).

The Canadian government was "ordered" to purchase these communities fishing boats and gear and forestry gear, and to train those in the community to use it. These treaties do give them special access to these resources. They have a first "right" after conservation requirements. After this, comes the "privlidge" to fish, hunt and access to common resources given to other Canadian citizens by the government. So, native communities have a "right" to access to resources, other Canadians have a "privilidge", that is governed by government, for the people of Canada.

As a law abiding country, Canada cannot select to honor legally valid commitments people like and ignore those they don't like. You may not like it. But, the treaties are valid and that is Canadian law, end of story. It is best to get over it and move on.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The Indigenous Peoples Outlook
From: gnu
Date: 21 Apr 11 - 05:47 PM

That is very sad Q. I had heard some stories of such from my Newfie buddies who went out there to teach and work. 999 tells of abuses too.

But, here, it's a bit different story. It has come to violence when the Whites were pissed off at the Reds, for good reason. It's all too complicated... let me just say that... as I said before, ALL peoples would like to do well and do well by the environment. No group is chaste and to exault one over another is crap. That was all I wanted to infuse.

gnightgnu


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The Indigenous Peoples Outlook
From: gnu
Date: 21 Apr 11 - 06:05 PM

Glad I caught that Ed before I left this thread... "They have a first "right" after conservation requirements."

So, why do they fish small lobsters out of season and deliver them after dark? Why do they bang moose out of season and leave them in the woods when they run "too far in". Why do they sell salmon and moose and deer cheap no matter the season?

Okay... the Native Peoples out west... no, I don't know about them. But HERE, I have seen the long caravans of white Dodge Maxivans with occupants armed with machine guns travelling in the backwoods delivering ******** across the US border. Ya can't tell me these guys are hurting. I KNOW the difference.

That's right. They ain't all they are cracked up to be. That is my point.

Out west? I dunno. In our neck of the woods... I know.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The Indigenous Peoples Outlook
From: Ed T
Date: 21 Apr 11 - 06:33 PM

""So, why do they fish small lobsters out of season and deliver them after dark? Why do they bang moose out of season and leave them in the woods when they run "too far in". Why do they sell salmon and moose and deer cheap no matter the season?""

You don't get it Gnu. And, you are mixing up a whole lot of things.
As you say, there are assholes everwhere, regardless of what group they belong to. That does not make a whole society assholes.

There are seasons that have nothing to do about conservation, they are merely for the lobster harvesters convenience and for marketing purposes. Natives are not bound to these non-conservation rules.

Because natives have a legal "right", confrmed by Canada's highest court to have first access following the conservation needs of the species, government must prove that any controls on the native "communal" fishery are based on conservation. They do not have to do that for other commercial fish harvesters, (nor natives who fish as private individuals) because this access is not a right, but a privlidge. Natives have the same opportunity as others to sell their legal catch for whatever price or time of the day they wish.

I suspect they have been harassed and boycotted by local buyers/fishermen in some of the areas near you. This likely has encouraged them to seek alternative, non-traditional markets or to sell to locals.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The Indigenous Peoples Outlook
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 21 Apr 11 - 06:57 PM

An indian looking pursar on our Aerolineas Argentinas flight back to Buenos Aires this afternoon bumped us up to business class - absolutely super lady.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The Indigenous Peoples Outlook
From: Ed T
Date: 21 Apr 11 - 08:14 PM

CLEAN, DRINKABLE WATER IS A HUMAN RIGHT
"Every family in this country (Canada) should have access to clean, safe drinking water and First Nations should not be an exception." - Assembly of First Nations National Chief Shawn A-in-chut Atleo

""Across Canada, 20,000 First Nations people live without running water or sewage. This is in addition to more than 110 First Nations communities where the tap water is not safe to drink. According to an expert study commissioned by the federal government, Canada has not provided First Nations adequate infrastructure and support to enjoy the same quality of drinking water as other communities.
Amnesty International""


In an article in the Edmonton Journal, Christina Doktor of the Alberta Federation of Labour writes:

"Despite living in a wealthy province in a wealthy country, amid the operations of oil and gas companies making mega profits, they [the Lubicon Cree] live in Third World conditions. Many homes lack running water or indoor toilets. There is no grocery store, no gas station, no health facility and no recreation facilities."

"Why, you might ask, is everyone -- the provincial government, the federal government and private corporations -- able to make money from oil and gas operations on Lubicon territory, while the band members themselves are left with next to nothing?"

Canada Native People and Poverty


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The Indigenous Peoples Outlook
From: gnu
Date: 22 Apr 11 - 09:21 AM

Ed... it is indeed shameful and unacceptable.

However, you said "... following the conservation needs of the species,"

Harvesting undersize lobster is shameful and unacceptable. That's what "*I* don't get."

Anyway, I think (?) I made my point.

gnightgnu


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The Indigenous Peoples Outlook
From: Ed T
Date: 22 Apr 11 - 01:15 PM

""Harvesting undersize lobster is shameful and unacceptable. That's what "*I* don't get.""

Well, I guess it all depends on what you mean by "undersized lobsters" Most of those caught in the Gulf of St. Lawrence (the canners) would be "legally" considered "undersided" in the rest of Atlantic Canada, down into the USA. Is this shameful and unacxceptable to you?

Can you be more specific. Are you saying that some native and non-native people both break conservation laws (let's be clear on that term, conservation laws).Or, are you saying that the native community as a whole are breaking conservation laws, unlike the non native fish harvesting community?

What I don't get is when a non-native lobster fisherman does sonmething illegal, you merely see him as an individual asshole. But, when a native does the same thing you see this person as reflecting the entire native community. Can't you see the different lenses you are using to portray native peoples and their society from those of your own?

Some native people do not live on reserves, nor do they claim to be bound by Band rules. Canada's Supreme court ruled that this native right is communial, not individual.(I suspect this will be challenged some day).

Bands allow some of their "off reserve" members to fish two or three lobster traps per year. Bands employ members to fish under their band rights, and in most cases fish under a fishing plan, approved by government. They share some of the catch with on and off reserve members. They also have the right to sell their catch commercially, as they see fit (government tried to challenge the commercial aspect, but the right to sell the catch was confirmed by the Supreme Court).

The native community also has a right to harvest a limited number of species (fish, moose etc) for religious and cermonial purposes. This is very limited and controlled.

The Supreme Court has ruled that the Government has the responsibility to manage natural resources, like fish, including the native harvest.However, they are bound by the conservation rules, mentioned earlier.

In the Canadian "Marshall" Suprreme Court ruling, it was made clear that the native rights and treaties are not "frozen in time". It also ruled that, since it had, contrary to the treaties, limited native access to commercial fisheries for hunderds of years, the Government of Canada has the responsibility to ensure that the native fishery advances to it's rightful place, alongside the non-native harvest.

It is not realistic to expect that native fishermen could develop this fishery while competing with commercial fishermen with considerable knowledge. So, special provisions are made to allow natives access to a fishery when non-native commercial fishermen are not fishing. This can be done as long as it does not impact the conservation needs of the species.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The Indigenous Peoples Outlook
From: Ed T
Date: 22 Apr 11 - 01:33 PM

Gnu,
If you wish to consider something unwise and wasteful(I won't use the word shameful) consider the fall lobster fishery off northern New Brunswick and western PEI.

Through much of the mid August to Mid October season most of the lobsters are soft shelled (recently moulted). The maxium meat content of a lobster is about 27 percent. The meat content in those lobsters are frequently very low, as low as 18 percent. Obviously, the quality of the product is very low. If these folks fished the same time as the other Gulf of St. Lawrence fishermen, in late Spring to early Summer, the meat content would be nearer the maxium and catch quality much superior.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The Indigenous Peoples Outlook
From: gnu
Date: 22 Apr 11 - 02:01 PM

I wasn't gonna come back to this thread but I'm glad I did. Ed, re the lobsters, you are right and I was wrong. It finally sunk in. Thanks for taking the time to set me straight on the lobsters... same thing on the moose applies in a way.

Thanks.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The Indigenous Peoples Outlook
From: Ed T
Date: 22 Apr 11 - 04:45 PM

Gnu,

Kind of you to say it. And, it reflects well on you.

But, IMO, there is no right or wrong. There are just personal viewpoints that frequently change with experience and consideration of different perspectives. To me, that is a good aspect of life.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The Indigenous Peoples Outlook
From: gnu
Date: 22 Apr 11 - 04:48 PM

I try not to reflect. On sunny days, I wear a hat.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The Indigenous Peoples Outlook
From: ollaimh
Date: 24 Apr 11 - 03:26 PM

well i'm glad most of the simpleton and bigoted attitudes went quite but gnu, you know absolutelty nothing about the canadian courts. i worked in them for years, representingt a lot of natives. they were not allowed to sue in court in most provinces untill circa 1970, fererally untill 1968, ever wonder why the backlog of land claims and other native rights suits. they do not get proper legal representation, they do not get the same damages for the same torts as white people do--just look at the paltry settlements for the residential schools--white people would have gotten a half a million to three million each, natives get twenty thou if they are lucky. they get different treastment from the police. i won a lot of criminal defences for natives by just pleading not guilty--the cops would never have the evidence as they didn't expect a native to have a decent lawyer willing to run the trial. and let me tell you was constantly being reported to the law society on false claims that i was dragging out the cases--lucky for me i won all the trials or appeals that were subject to complaint. most white lawyer plead natives guilty whether they have a defence or not, and most cops over charge natives expecting guilty pleas and looking to get their convoiction rates up.

in addition i worked in a poverty law clinic for a while and we had to sue to get the same appeals for natives on welfare and disability aS WHITES GET.the bureaucrats would routinely deny them things they were legally entitled to and usually the native has no acess to sue--except the odd poverty law clinic. then they get so used to doing this the bureaucrats think its legal --untill you get before a judge . i used to get unbelievable responses. i had to sue to just look at the file more thasn once--this is given to the client aas routine if you are white.

i could go on but if you think natives get equal access to courts you are absolutely ignorant on the subject.

moreover the term indigenous people actually means something. you aren't an indegineous person becaue your family has lived somewhere a long time-- that attitude is at the heart of colonial imperialism.

be gratefull tyhat natives are so foirgiving--they have a lot to hate us for, and the present generation is just comming out of the residential schools holoucoust. ever wonder why native population is prexsently booming? well have of ever generation aren't killed by heglect of health care anymore--they don't have equal health care nor equal access to water and decent food but they are way ahead of pre 1978 when th residential schools were abolished, so their children get to grow to adulthood in number unknown since before the arrivasl of the white man.

again be gratefull they are so foirgiving


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The Indigenous Peoples Outlook
From: Mrrzy
Date: 24 Apr 11 - 03:46 PM

"The" indigineous people? You mean, the ones who stayed in SouthEastern Africa till now? Otherwise there seem to be different indiginous people for each ecological niche (African, Aboriginal, European, etc.)...


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The Indigenous Peoples Outlook
From: gnu
Date: 24 Apr 11 - 04:11 PM

"simpleton and bigoted attitudes"

That's as far as I read. Fuck you. For you to dismiss me and what I have seen and call me a simpleton and a bigot... fuck you. I can guarantee that native my freinds would say the same.

gnightgnu


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The Indigenous Peoples Outlook
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 24 Apr 11 - 04:35 PM

"indigineous people"

This does seem to be a rather long winded way of saying indians does it not???


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The Indigenous Peoples Outlook
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 24 Apr 11 - 05:18 PM

Probably not in Australia, Hawaii, Greenland...mg


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: The Indigenous Peoples Outlook
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 24 Apr 11 - 05:48 PM

ollaimh is correct is stating that not until 1970 were Canada's aboriginal people able to pursue aboriginal rights in the Supreme Court of Canada. In British Columbia, the BC treaty process by means aboriginal rights could be pursued did not exist until 1993.
In British Columbia, 49 sets of negotiations are underway in the courts.
The sad affair of child abuse in government and religious native schools hopefully is over.

As ollaih and Et T. posted, many aboriginal settlements lack basic amenities; near Calgary and some other cities, they are able to get money through sand and gravel, casino, and other operations, but others, like the Cree, are unable to mount legal actions in Alberta courts to protect their lands.
Near the oil sands operation in Alberta and Saskatchewan, they face contamination of the rivers and lakes and loss of land to the expanding operations, without compensation.
The oil sands cover an area the size of Florida. Leases are granted without consultation with or compensation to aborigilal peoples living on the land. The Athabaska, River formerly a source of fish, potable water, and animal habitat over a large area, is degraded by toxins and use of water to extract the bitumen.
http:..dirtyoilsands.org/files/TEN_CITSC_TarSands_Info_Sheet.pdf
(and other papers on the net).

The Canadian oil sands (primarily, other smaller Canadian contributors) furnish twice as much oil imported by the U. S. as Saudi Arabia and Mexico combined, the next two largest sources. [Jan. 2011 figures, Canada 2.826 million bbls, Saudi Arabia 1.102 million bbls and Mexico 1.366 million bbls (U. S. government figures, www.eia.doe.gov).

Yet the aboriginal peoples get nothing for the land that has been taken from them and loss of its use.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate
 


You must be a member to post in non-music threads. Join here.


You must be a member to post in non-music threads. Join here.



Mudcat time: 27 September 9:47 PM EDT

[ Home ]

All original material is copyright © 1998 by the Mudcat Café Music Foundation, Inc. All photos, music, images, etc. are copyright © by their rightful owners. Every effort is taken to attribute appropriate copyright to images, content, music, etc. We are not a copyright resource.