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BS: Christian Persecution

Keith A of Hertford 15 Mar 11 - 04:55 AM
Richard Bridge 15 Mar 11 - 06:44 AM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Mar 11 - 06:52 AM
Wesley S 15 Mar 11 - 06:56 AM
Richie Black (misused acct, bad email) 15 Mar 11 - 07:01 AM
Wilfried Schaum 15 Mar 11 - 09:30 AM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Mar 11 - 09:47 AM
Greg F. 15 Mar 11 - 09:50 AM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Mar 11 - 10:08 AM
Greg F. 15 Mar 11 - 10:12 AM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Mar 11 - 10:14 AM
Greg F. 15 Mar 11 - 10:15 AM
katlaughing 15 Mar 11 - 10:17 AM
Wesley S 15 Mar 11 - 10:22 AM
GUEST,Steamin' Willie 15 Mar 11 - 10:45 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Mar 11 - 10:47 AM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Mar 11 - 10:47 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Mar 11 - 11:15 AM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Mar 11 - 11:23 AM
Greg F. 15 Mar 11 - 11:44 AM
Goose Gander 15 Mar 11 - 11:45 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Mar 11 - 11:46 AM
Steve Shaw 15 Mar 11 - 12:11 PM
Jim Carroll 15 Mar 11 - 12:16 PM
Richard Bridge 15 Mar 11 - 12:22 PM
Richard Bridge 15 Mar 11 - 12:28 PM
Silas 15 Mar 11 - 12:33 PM
Greg F. 15 Mar 11 - 12:36 PM
Greg F. 15 Mar 11 - 12:38 PM
Stringsinger 15 Mar 11 - 12:54 PM
Silas 15 Mar 11 - 01:06 PM
Steve Shaw 15 Mar 11 - 01:31 PM
Greg F. 15 Mar 11 - 01:38 PM
GUEST,mauvepink 15 Mar 11 - 02:03 PM
GUEST,999--darned memory 15 Mar 11 - 02:32 PM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Mar 11 - 02:38 PM
GUEST,999 15 Mar 11 - 02:41 PM
Greg F. 15 Mar 11 - 02:47 PM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Mar 11 - 03:28 PM
GUEST,999 15 Mar 11 - 03:47 PM
Greg F. 15 Mar 11 - 03:58 PM
Jim Carroll 15 Mar 11 - 04:10 PM
McGrath of Harlow 15 Mar 11 - 04:38 PM
Dave MacKenzie 15 Mar 11 - 04:44 PM
Joe Offer 15 Mar 11 - 04:45 PM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Mar 11 - 04:56 PM
Joe Offer 15 Mar 11 - 05:14 PM
Greg F. 15 Mar 11 - 05:49 PM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Mar 11 - 06:16 PM
Greg F. 15 Mar 11 - 06:40 PM
Mrrzy 15 Mar 11 - 06:45 PM
GUEST,999 15 Mar 11 - 06:52 PM
Don Firth 15 Mar 11 - 07:03 PM
Bill D 15 Mar 11 - 08:42 PM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Mar 11 - 02:19 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Mar 11 - 03:57 AM
Joe Offer 16 Mar 11 - 03:57 AM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Mar 11 - 04:07 AM
Joe Offer 16 Mar 11 - 04:22 AM
Joe Offer 16 Mar 11 - 04:32 AM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Mar 11 - 04:37 AM
Joe Offer 16 Mar 11 - 04:44 AM
Will Fly 16 Mar 11 - 05:07 AM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Mar 11 - 05:24 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Mar 11 - 05:55 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Mar 11 - 06:23 AM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Mar 11 - 06:34 AM
Silas 16 Mar 11 - 06:46 AM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Mar 11 - 07:01 AM
Silas 16 Mar 11 - 07:04 AM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Mar 11 - 07:08 AM
Silas 16 Mar 11 - 07:14 AM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Mar 11 - 07:21 AM
Silas 16 Mar 11 - 07:25 AM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Mar 11 - 07:28 AM
Silas 16 Mar 11 - 07:30 AM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Mar 11 - 07:39 AM
Silas 16 Mar 11 - 08:02 AM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Mar 11 - 08:14 AM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Mar 11 - 08:32 AM
GUEST,999 16 Mar 11 - 08:43 AM
Silas 16 Mar 11 - 08:44 AM
Silas 16 Mar 11 - 08:46 AM
GUEST,Patsy 16 Mar 11 - 08:48 AM
Ebbie 16 Mar 11 - 11:34 AM
Silas 16 Mar 11 - 11:39 AM
GUEST,Steamin' Willie 16 Mar 11 - 12:28 PM
McGrath of Harlow 16 Mar 11 - 01:33 PM
Lighter 16 Mar 11 - 01:46 PM
Joe Offer 16 Mar 11 - 01:50 PM
GUEST,999 16 Mar 11 - 02:39 PM
Greg F. 16 Mar 11 - 03:27 PM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Mar 11 - 03:38 PM
McGrath of Harlow 16 Mar 11 - 03:39 PM
Donuel 16 Mar 11 - 03:44 PM
Steve Shaw 16 Mar 11 - 04:00 PM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Mar 11 - 04:12 PM
Steve Shaw 16 Mar 11 - 04:18 PM
McGrath of Harlow 16 Mar 11 - 04:26 PM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Mar 11 - 04:40 PM
akenaton 16 Mar 11 - 05:37 PM
Greg F. 16 Mar 11 - 06:27 PM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Mar 11 - 06:49 PM
Lighter 16 Mar 11 - 07:13 PM
Steve Shaw 16 Mar 11 - 08:24 PM
Steve Shaw 16 Mar 11 - 08:27 PM
Ebbie 16 Mar 11 - 11:10 PM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Mar 11 - 02:09 AM
akenaton 17 Mar 11 - 03:57 AM
Richard Bridge 17 Mar 11 - 04:39 AM
Richard Bridge 17 Mar 11 - 04:50 AM
GUEST,Patsy 17 Mar 11 - 06:06 AM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Mar 11 - 06:22 AM
McGrath of Harlow 17 Mar 11 - 06:51 AM
Steve Shaw 17 Mar 11 - 08:15 AM
Steve Shaw 17 Mar 11 - 08:17 AM
Steve Shaw 17 Mar 11 - 08:22 AM
Steve Shaw 17 Mar 11 - 08:28 AM
Steve Shaw 17 Mar 11 - 08:38 AM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Mar 11 - 08:42 AM
Steve Shaw 17 Mar 11 - 08:48 AM
Steve Shaw 17 Mar 11 - 08:53 AM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Mar 11 - 09:20 AM
Steve Shaw 17 Mar 11 - 09:32 AM
McGrath of Harlow 17 Mar 11 - 10:06 AM
Greg F. 17 Mar 11 - 11:11 AM
GUEST,999 17 Mar 11 - 11:17 AM
Greg F. 17 Mar 11 - 11:35 AM
olddude 17 Mar 11 - 11:45 AM
Steve Shaw 17 Mar 11 - 11:54 AM
Greg F. 17 Mar 11 - 12:32 PM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Mar 11 - 12:34 PM
Greg F. 17 Mar 11 - 12:39 PM
olddude 17 Mar 11 - 12:53 PM
Steve Shaw 17 Mar 11 - 01:01 PM
McGrath of Harlow 17 Mar 11 - 01:35 PM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Mar 11 - 03:09 PM
Greg F. 17 Mar 11 - 03:28 PM
McGrath of Harlow 17 Mar 11 - 06:01 PM
Greg F. 17 Mar 11 - 06:10 PM
Donuel 17 Mar 11 - 06:24 PM
McGrath of Harlow 17 Mar 11 - 06:31 PM
Richard Bridge 17 Mar 11 - 07:12 PM
McGrath of Harlow 17 Mar 11 - 08:20 PM
akenaton 17 Mar 11 - 08:44 PM
GUEST,Steamin' Willie 18 Mar 11 - 07:33 AM
Richard Bridge 18 Mar 11 - 12:05 PM
McGrath of Harlow 18 Mar 11 - 12:22 PM
Greg F. 18 Mar 11 - 12:52 PM
GUEST,Bluesman 22 Sep 11 - 03:29 PM
Van 22 Sep 11 - 03:46 PM
Greg F. 22 Sep 11 - 03:53 PM
Stringsinger 22 Sep 11 - 07:18 PM
McGrath of Harlow 22 Sep 11 - 07:32 PM
Joe Offer 22 Sep 11 - 07:53 PM
Joe Offer 22 Sep 11 - 11:55 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 23 Sep 11 - 12:41 AM
Joe Offer 23 Sep 11 - 02:15 AM
Musket 23 Sep 11 - 03:39 AM
MGM·Lion 23 Sep 11 - 04:18 AM
Musket 23 Sep 11 - 04:56 AM
MGM·Lion 23 Sep 11 - 12:06 PM
GUEST,Eliza 23 Sep 11 - 01:35 PM
McGrath of Harlow 23 Sep 11 - 03:48 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 23 Sep 11 - 04:08 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 23 Sep 11 - 04:15 PM
Stringsinger 23 Sep 11 - 04:24 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 23 Sep 11 - 04:32 PM
McGrath of Harlow 23 Sep 11 - 04:35 PM
MGM·Lion 23 Sep 11 - 05:04 PM
Wesley S 23 Sep 11 - 05:18 PM
McGrath of Harlow 23 Sep 11 - 06:18 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 23 Sep 11 - 06:29 PM
Joe Offer 23 Sep 11 - 06:57 PM
Penny S. 24 Sep 11 - 06:20 AM
McGrath of Harlow 24 Sep 11 - 06:25 AM
Penny S. 24 Sep 11 - 06:26 AM
GUEST,Steamin' Willie 24 Sep 11 - 08:07 AM
McGrath of Harlow 24 Sep 11 - 10:10 AM
Stringsinger 24 Sep 11 - 12:34 PM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 26 Sep 11 - 11:36 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 26 Sep 11 - 11:59 AM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 26 Sep 11 - 02:51 PM
Stringsinger 27 Sep 11 - 10:59 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 28 Sep 11 - 06:27 PM
McGrath of Harlow 28 Sep 11 - 07:05 PM
Joe Offer 29 Sep 11 - 01:19 AM
GUEST,Peter Laban 29 Sep 11 - 03:21 AM
Musket 29 Sep 11 - 06:52 AM
John P 29 Sep 11 - 09:40 AM
McGrath of Harlow 29 Sep 11 - 10:37 AM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 29 Sep 11 - 11:36 AM
Musket 29 Sep 11 - 11:42 AM
Penny S. 29 Sep 11 - 03:29 PM
Stringsinger 29 Sep 11 - 04:18 PM
Stringsinger 29 Sep 11 - 04:54 PM
Keith A of Hertford 29 Sep 11 - 05:19 PM
MGM·Lion 29 Sep 11 - 05:28 PM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 29 Sep 11 - 05:40 PM
Joe Offer 29 Sep 11 - 11:37 PM
Donuel 29 Sep 11 - 11:49 PM
Keith A of Hertford 30 Sep 11 - 02:38 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 30 Sep 11 - 06:40 AM
McGrath of Harlow 30 Sep 11 - 06:59 AM
Keith A of Hertford 30 Sep 11 - 07:09 AM
Musket 30 Sep 11 - 07:15 AM
Bill D 30 Sep 11 - 07:33 AM
Keith A of Hertford 30 Sep 11 - 07:50 AM
saulgoldie 30 Sep 11 - 08:37 AM
Keith A of Hertford 30 Sep 11 - 08:43 AM
Keith A of Hertford 30 Sep 11 - 08:46 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 30 Sep 11 - 08:49 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 30 Sep 11 - 08:57 AM
Keith A of Hertford 30 Sep 11 - 09:02 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 30 Sep 11 - 09:12 AM
Keith A of Hertford 30 Sep 11 - 09:21 AM
Joe Offer 30 Sep 11 - 11:35 AM
saulgoldie 30 Sep 11 - 12:16 PM
Musket 30 Sep 11 - 01:37 PM
Keith A of Hertford 30 Sep 11 - 01:43 PM
McGrath of Harlow 30 Sep 11 - 02:15 PM
Penny S. 30 Sep 11 - 04:21 PM
McGrath of Harlow 02 Oct 11 - 02:24 PM
Keith A of Hertford 09 Dec 11 - 08:57 AM
Jim Carroll 09 Dec 11 - 02:36 PM
Keith A of Hertford 09 Dec 11 - 04:57 PM
Jim Carroll 10 Dec 11 - 03:15 AM
Keith A of Hertford 10 Dec 11 - 04:50 AM
Richard Bridge 10 Dec 11 - 07:12 AM
Jim Carroll 10 Dec 11 - 08:40 AM
Keith A of Hertford 10 Dec 11 - 08:51 AM
Jim Carroll 10 Dec 11 - 10:03 AM
Keith A of Hertford 10 Dec 11 - 12:11 PM
Jim Carroll 10 Dec 11 - 01:26 PM
Keith A of Hertford 10 Dec 11 - 02:03 PM
Joe Offer 10 Dec 11 - 02:30 PM
Greg F. 10 Dec 11 - 03:10 PM
Jim Carroll 10 Dec 11 - 03:31 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 11 Dec 11 - 01:00 PM
Keith A of Hertford 11 Dec 11 - 01:19 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 11 Dec 11 - 02:46 PM
Keith A of Hertford 11 Dec 11 - 03:03 PM
Jim Carroll 11 Dec 11 - 03:42 PM
Keith A of Hertford 11 Dec 11 - 03:50 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 11 Dec 11 - 03:58 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 11 Dec 11 - 04:03 PM
Keith A of Hertford 11 Dec 11 - 04:51 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 11 Dec 11 - 06:12 PM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Dec 11 - 01:09 AM
Musket 12 Dec 11 - 04:40 AM
Richard Bridge 12 Dec 11 - 06:23 AM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Dec 11 - 06:35 AM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Dec 11 - 07:32 AM
Greg F. 12 Dec 11 - 08:56 AM
MGM·Lion 12 Dec 11 - 09:44 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 12 Dec 11 - 10:36 AM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Dec 11 - 11:02 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 12 Dec 11 - 11:37 AM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Dec 11 - 12:17 PM
Mrrzy 12 Dec 11 - 02:10 PM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 12 Dec 11 - 02:41 PM
Penny S. 12 Dec 11 - 02:48 PM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Dec 11 - 03:27 PM
Greg F. 12 Dec 11 - 03:37 PM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Dec 11 - 04:53 PM
Greg F. 12 Dec 11 - 05:21 PM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Dec 11 - 05:45 PM
Jack the Sailor 12 Dec 11 - 05:51 PM
Greg F. 12 Dec 11 - 06:37 PM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Dec 11 - 01:13 AM
Joe Offer 13 Dec 11 - 01:54 AM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Dec 11 - 02:38 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Dec 11 - 03:54 AM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Dec 11 - 03:58 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Dec 11 - 05:03 AM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Dec 11 - 05:55 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Dec 11 - 06:59 AM
Musket 13 Dec 11 - 07:20 AM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Dec 11 - 07:41 AM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Dec 11 - 08:25 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Dec 11 - 08:58 AM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Dec 11 - 09:21 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Dec 11 - 10:41 AM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Dec 11 - 11:22 AM
Musket 13 Dec 11 - 12:21 PM
akenaton 13 Dec 11 - 02:05 PM
ollaimh 14 Dec 11 - 11:10 AM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Dec 11 - 11:45 AM
McGrath of Harlow 14 Dec 11 - 06:19 PM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Dec 11 - 01:39 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Dec 11 - 03:50 AM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Dec 11 - 04:32 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Dec 11 - 04:46 AM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Dec 11 - 05:22 AM
MGM·Lion 15 Dec 11 - 05:33 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Dec 11 - 06:51 AM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Dec 11 - 07:04 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Dec 11 - 08:35 AM
GUEST,keith A 15 Dec 11 - 08:55 AM
Musket 15 Dec 11 - 09:09 AM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Dec 11 - 11:08 AM
MGM·Lion 15 Dec 11 - 11:21 AM
GUEST, Eb 15 Dec 11 - 11:37 AM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Dec 11 - 11:46 AM
MGM·Lion 15 Dec 11 - 11:50 AM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Dec 11 - 01:21 PM
Greg F. 15 Dec 11 - 02:02 PM
MGM·Lion 15 Dec 11 - 02:10 PM
akenaton 15 Dec 11 - 02:35 PM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Dec 11 - 02:51 PM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Dec 11 - 02:53 PM
MGM·Lion 15 Dec 11 - 02:58 PM
Greg F. 15 Dec 11 - 04:12 PM
McGrath of Harlow 15 Dec 11 - 06:11 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 15 Dec 11 - 06:49 PM
akenaton 15 Dec 11 - 07:19 PM
Stringsinger 15 Dec 11 - 07:24 PM
akenaton 15 Dec 11 - 07:37 PM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Dec 11 - 12:56 AM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Dec 11 - 01:46 AM
Musket 16 Dec 11 - 09:14 AM
Musket 16 Dec 11 - 09:19 AM
Greg F. 16 Dec 11 - 09:37 AM
McGrath of Harlow 16 Dec 11 - 09:51 AM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Dec 11 - 09:59 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 16 Dec 11 - 01:18 PM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Dec 11 - 02:14 PM
McGrath of Harlow 16 Dec 11 - 02:31 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 16 Dec 11 - 02:50 PM
Stringsinger 16 Dec 11 - 03:06 PM
Stringsinger 16 Dec 11 - 03:11 PM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Dec 11 - 03:54 PM
Donuel 16 Dec 11 - 04:06 PM
McGrath of Harlow 16 Dec 11 - 04:48 PM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Dec 11 - 05:09 PM
Jim Carroll 17 Dec 11 - 06:04 AM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Dec 11 - 06:16 AM
Jim Carroll 17 Dec 11 - 07:04 AM
MGM·Lion 17 Dec 11 - 07:37 AM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Dec 11 - 08:03 AM
Jim Carroll 17 Dec 11 - 09:10 AM
Jim Carroll 17 Dec 11 - 09:12 AM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Dec 11 - 09:39 AM
McGrath of Harlow 17 Dec 11 - 09:43 AM
MGM·Lion 17 Dec 11 - 11:37 AM
Jim Carroll 17 Dec 11 - 12:38 PM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Dec 11 - 03:47 PM
McGrath of Harlow 17 Dec 11 - 05:18 PM
Jim Carroll 18 Dec 11 - 05:47 AM
akenaton 18 Dec 11 - 06:13 AM
Keith A of Hertford 18 Dec 11 - 07:16 AM
Jim Carroll 18 Dec 11 - 08:04 AM
Musket 18 Dec 11 - 08:27 AM
akenaton 18 Dec 11 - 08:51 AM
akenaton 18 Dec 11 - 08:56 AM
akenaton 18 Dec 11 - 09:11 AM
McGrath of Harlow 18 Dec 11 - 11:39 AM
Greg F. 18 Dec 11 - 11:53 AM
Keith A of Hertford 18 Dec 11 - 03:56 PM
akenaton 18 Dec 11 - 04:20 PM
GUEST, Eb 18 Dec 11 - 06:39 PM
Keith A of Hertford 19 Dec 11 - 02:54 AM
GUEST, Eb 19 Dec 11 - 12:16 PM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 19 Dec 11 - 02:53 PM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Sep 13 - 08:16 AM
Greg F. 25 Sep 13 - 09:32 AM
GUEST,Musket bemused 25 Sep 13 - 10:02 AM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Sep 13 - 01:07 PM
GUEST,Musket musing 25 Sep 13 - 01:45 PM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Sep 13 - 02:48 PM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 25 Sep 13 - 06:36 PM
McGrath of Harlow 25 Sep 13 - 09:15 PM
Greg F. 26 Sep 13 - 08:53 AM
Jim Carroll 26 Sep 13 - 10:48 AM
GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser) 26 Sep 13 - 11:43 AM
Stringsinger 26 Sep 13 - 12:00 PM
Jim Carroll 26 Sep 13 - 12:11 PM
McGrath of Harlow 26 Sep 13 - 12:14 PM
Keith A of Hertford 26 Sep 13 - 03:33 PM
Greg F. 26 Sep 13 - 04:02 PM
McGrath of Harlow 26 Sep 13 - 04:42 PM
Greg F. 26 Sep 13 - 05:47 PM
Stringsinger 26 Sep 13 - 05:56 PM
McGrath of Harlow 26 Sep 13 - 10:08 PM
McGrath of Harlow 26 Sep 13 - 10:14 PM
GUEST,Musket curious 27 Sep 13 - 01:18 AM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Sep 13 - 03:07 AM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Sep 13 - 03:10 AM
GUEST,Musket being patriotic 27 Sep 13 - 03:34 AM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Sep 13 - 04:03 AM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Sep 13 - 04:08 AM
Richard Bridge 27 Sep 13 - 05:21 AM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Sep 13 - 05:45 AM
McGrath of Harlow 27 Sep 13 - 01:06 PM
Donuel 27 Sep 13 - 01:34 PM
MGM·Lion 27 Sep 13 - 02:49 PM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 27 Sep 13 - 05:16 PM
McGrath of Harlow 27 Sep 13 - 06:19 PM
Bill D 27 Sep 13 - 07:00 PM
GUEST,Musket curious 28 Sep 13 - 02:44 AM
Keith A of Hertford 28 Sep 13 - 03:00 AM
MGM·Lion 28 Sep 13 - 03:02 AM
GUEST,Musket again 28 Sep 13 - 06:25 AM
Jim Carroll 28 Sep 13 - 06:50 AM
MGM·Lion 28 Sep 13 - 07:30 AM
Jim Carroll 28 Sep 13 - 08:22 AM
GUEST 28 Sep 13 - 08:49 AM
MGM·Lion 28 Sep 13 - 09:01 AM
McGrath of Harlow 28 Sep 13 - 09:26 AM
Steve Shaw 28 Sep 13 - 10:03 AM
GUEST,Musket curious 28 Sep 13 - 10:40 AM
Keith A of Hertford 28 Sep 13 - 10:49 AM
Keith A of Hertford 28 Sep 13 - 10:58 AM
Jim Carroll 28 Sep 13 - 11:09 AM
Keith A of Hertford 28 Sep 13 - 11:36 AM
GUEST,Musket curious 28 Sep 13 - 12:51 PM
Jim Carroll 28 Sep 13 - 12:53 PM
Greg F. 28 Sep 13 - 01:05 PM
Keith A of Hertford 28 Sep 13 - 01:55 PM
MGM·Lion 28 Sep 13 - 02:58 PM
Jim Carroll 28 Sep 13 - 03:55 PM
Georgiansilver 28 Sep 13 - 05:06 PM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 28 Sep 13 - 05:09 PM
MGM·Lion 28 Sep 13 - 05:16 PM
MGM·Lion 28 Sep 13 - 05:27 PM
MGM·Lion 28 Sep 13 - 05:30 PM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 28 Sep 13 - 05:44 PM
McGrath of Harlow 28 Sep 13 - 06:17 PM
Elmore 28 Sep 13 - 06:53 PM
McGrath of Harlow 28 Sep 13 - 10:40 PM
McGrath of Harlow 28 Sep 13 - 10:40 PM
Elmore 29 Sep 13 - 12:45 AM
Elmore 29 Sep 13 - 12:47 AM
Jim Carroll 29 Sep 13 - 02:49 AM
Keith A of Hertford 29 Sep 13 - 05:04 AM
MGM·Lion 29 Sep 13 - 05:26 AM
Jim Carroll 29 Sep 13 - 05:50 AM
Jim Carroll 29 Sep 13 - 06:28 AM
Jim Carroll 29 Sep 13 - 06:33 AM
bobad 29 Sep 13 - 08:04 AM
Keith A of Hertford 29 Sep 13 - 09:44 AM
Jim Carroll 29 Sep 13 - 09:57 AM
Keith A of Hertford 29 Sep 13 - 10:04 AM
Greg F. 29 Sep 13 - 10:57 AM
Greg F. 29 Sep 13 - 11:58 AM
Keith A of Hertford 29 Sep 13 - 02:05 PM
Jim Carroll 29 Sep 13 - 02:18 PM
Keith A of Hertford 29 Sep 13 - 03:13 PM
Greg F. 29 Sep 13 - 04:22 PM
Keith A of Hertford 29 Sep 13 - 05:11 PM
Greg F. 29 Sep 13 - 05:54 PM
Greg F. 29 Sep 13 - 06:07 PM
GUEST,Musket with straight bat 29 Sep 13 - 06:34 PM
Greg F. 29 Sep 13 - 08:16 PM
Jim Carroll 29 Sep 13 - 08:17 PM
Elmore 29 Sep 13 - 10:02 PM
McGrath of Harlow 29 Sep 13 - 10:59 PM
Jim Carroll 30 Sep 13 - 01:46 AM
Keith A of Hertford 30 Sep 13 - 02:51 AM
Keith A of Hertford 30 Sep 13 - 03:03 AM
Jim Carroll 30 Sep 13 - 03:45 AM
Jim Carroll 30 Sep 13 - 04:00 AM
Keith A of Hertford 30 Sep 13 - 04:02 AM
Keith A of Hertford 30 Sep 13 - 04:14 AM
Jim Carroll 30 Sep 13 - 05:14 AM
Keith A of Hertford 30 Sep 13 - 05:19 AM
Jim Carroll 30 Sep 13 - 05:19 AM
MGM·Lion 30 Sep 13 - 05:45 AM
Keith A of Hertford 30 Sep 13 - 05:47 AM
Jim Carroll 30 Sep 13 - 07:28 AM
Keith A of Hertford 30 Sep 13 - 07:46 AM
Keith A of Hertford 30 Sep 13 - 08:26 AM
bobad 30 Sep 13 - 08:51 AM
Jim Carroll 30 Sep 13 - 09:14 AM
Keith A of Hertford 30 Sep 13 - 09:39 AM
MGM·Lion 30 Sep 13 - 09:40 AM
Jim Carroll 30 Sep 13 - 10:48 AM
MGM·Lion 30 Sep 13 - 11:00 AM
Keith A of Hertford 30 Sep 13 - 11:25 AM
Jim Carroll 30 Sep 13 - 11:44 AM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 30 Sep 13 - 12:17 PM
McGrath of Harlow 30 Sep 13 - 02:09 PM
Jim Carroll 30 Sep 13 - 02:59 PM
McGrath of Harlow 30 Sep 13 - 04:02 PM
Greg F. 30 Sep 13 - 05:39 PM
MGM·Lion 30 Sep 13 - 05:41 PM
McGrath of Harlow 30 Sep 13 - 05:55 PM
Jim Carroll 30 Sep 13 - 06:18 PM
Elmore 30 Sep 13 - 07:04 PM
bobad 30 Sep 13 - 08:53 PM
MGM·Lion 01 Oct 13 - 12:46 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Oct 13 - 03:01 AM
MGM·Lion 01 Oct 13 - 03:22 AM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Oct 13 - 03:28 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Oct 13 - 04:28 AM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Oct 13 - 04:30 AM
MGM·Lion 01 Oct 13 - 04:47 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Oct 13 - 05:37 AM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Oct 13 - 05:52 AM
MGM·Lion 01 Oct 13 - 06:12 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Oct 13 - 07:31 AM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Oct 13 - 08:33 AM
MGM·Lion 01 Oct 13 - 09:30 AM
Greg F. 01 Oct 13 - 09:46 AM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Oct 13 - 10:00 AM
Greg F. 01 Oct 13 - 10:02 AM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Oct 13 - 10:20 AM
Greg F. 01 Oct 13 - 10:53 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Oct 13 - 11:00 AM
MGM·Lion 01 Oct 13 - 12:35 PM
McGrath of Harlow 01 Oct 13 - 01:33 PM
Jim Carroll 01 Oct 13 - 01:34 PM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Oct 13 - 03:59 PM
Elmore 01 Oct 13 - 04:02 PM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 01 Oct 13 - 04:30 PM
Greg F. 01 Oct 13 - 05:03 PM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Oct 13 - 05:34 PM
Greg F. 01 Oct 13 - 06:08 PM
McGrath of Harlow 01 Oct 13 - 09:23 PM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Oct 13 - 03:08 AM
GUEST,Musket evolving slowly 02 Oct 13 - 07:07 AM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Oct 13 - 07:53 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Oct 13 - 08:22 AM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Oct 13 - 08:41 AM
Greg F. 02 Oct 13 - 10:09 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Oct 13 - 11:00 AM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Oct 13 - 11:54 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Oct 13 - 03:04 PM
Elmore 02 Oct 13 - 04:07 PM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Oct 13 - 04:08 PM
Jim Carroll 02 Oct 13 - 05:00 PM
Jim Carroll 02 Oct 13 - 08:44 PM
GUEST,Musket taking pulse check 02 Oct 13 - 09:19 PM
bobad 02 Oct 13 - 09:43 PM
GUEST,Musket 02 Oct 13 - 10:12 PM
MGM·Lion 03 Oct 13 - 01:15 AM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Oct 13 - 02:47 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Oct 13 - 04:27 AM
MGM·Lion 03 Oct 13 - 04:53 AM
MGM·Lion 03 Oct 13 - 05:20 AM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Oct 13 - 08:10 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Oct 13 - 08:33 AM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Oct 13 - 08:49 AM
Elmore 03 Oct 13 - 09:53 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Oct 13 - 10:27 AM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Oct 13 - 11:22 AM
Greg F. 03 Oct 13 - 01:05 PM
McGrath of Harlow 03 Oct 13 - 01:34 PM
Jim Carroll 03 Oct 13 - 03:56 PM
MGM·Lion 03 Oct 13 - 03:59 PM
GUEST,Musket curious 03 Oct 13 - 09:09 PM
bobad 03 Oct 13 - 09:31 PM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Oct 13 - 01:15 AM
MGM·Lion 04 Oct 13 - 01:18 AM
Jim Carroll 04 Oct 13 - 03:24 AM
MGM·Lion 04 Oct 13 - 03:46 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Oct 13 - 03:47 AM
Jim Carroll 04 Oct 13 - 04:40 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Oct 13 - 04:54 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Oct 13 - 04:56 AM
Jim Carroll 04 Oct 13 - 05:23 AM
MGM·Lion 04 Oct 13 - 05:25 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Oct 13 - 05:47 AM
Jim Carroll 04 Oct 13 - 05:58 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Oct 13 - 07:02 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Oct 13 - 07:03 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Oct 13 - 07:13 AM
Jim Carroll 04 Oct 13 - 07:16 AM
bobad 04 Oct 13 - 07:27 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Oct 13 - 07:32 AM
Jim Carroll 04 Oct 13 - 07:52 AM
Jim McLean 04 Oct 13 - 10:27 AM
McGrath of Harlow 04 Oct 13 - 11:33 AM
Jim Carroll 04 Oct 13 - 12:06 PM
MGM·Lion 04 Oct 13 - 02:00 PM
bobad 04 Oct 13 - 05:18 PM
McGrath of Harlow 04 Oct 13 - 05:39 PM
GUEST,Musket between courses 04 Oct 13 - 08:04 PM
Jim Carroll 05 Oct 13 - 02:34 AM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Oct 13 - 02:46 AM
Jim Carroll 05 Oct 13 - 02:53 AM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Oct 13 - 04:02 AM
GUEST,Musket evolving slowly 05 Oct 13 - 07:43 AM
bobad 05 Oct 13 - 08:15 AM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Oct 13 - 10:32 AM
Elmore 05 Oct 13 - 11:42 AM
Jim Carroll 05 Oct 13 - 11:43 AM
Jim Carroll 05 Oct 13 - 11:51 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 05 Oct 13 - 08:01 PM
Keith A of Hertford 06 Oct 13 - 03:57 AM
Jim Carroll 06 Oct 13 - 03:59 AM
Jim Carroll 06 Oct 13 - 04:27 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 06 Oct 13 - 06:02 AM
Jim Carroll 06 Oct 13 - 07:30 AM
Keith A of Hertford 06 Oct 13 - 07:41 AM
MGM·Lion 06 Oct 13 - 08:23 AM
Jim Carroll 06 Oct 13 - 08:27 AM
MGM·Lion 06 Oct 13 - 09:35 AM
Stringsinger 06 Oct 13 - 10:05 AM
bobad 06 Oct 13 - 10:07 AM
MGM·Lion 06 Oct 13 - 10:29 AM
Jim Carroll 06 Oct 13 - 10:44 AM
Keith A of Hertford 06 Oct 13 - 11:14 AM
Jim Carroll 06 Oct 13 - 11:44 AM
MGM·Lion 06 Oct 13 - 12:06 PM
MGM·Lion 06 Oct 13 - 12:29 PM
Keith A of Hertford 06 Oct 13 - 01:04 PM
MGM·Lion 06 Oct 13 - 01:36 PM
Jim Carroll 06 Oct 13 - 02:01 PM
MGM·Lion 06 Oct 13 - 02:07 PM
Jim Carroll 06 Oct 13 - 03:13 PM
McGrath of Harlow 06 Oct 13 - 07:02 PM
GUEST,Musket evolving slowly 07 Oct 13 - 02:47 AM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Oct 13 - 03:06 AM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Oct 13 - 03:10 AM
Jim Carroll 07 Oct 13 - 03:54 AM
MGM·Lion 07 Oct 13 - 04:00 AM
Jim Carroll 07 Oct 13 - 04:07 AM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Oct 13 - 04:12 AM
MGM·Lion 07 Oct 13 - 04:16 AM
MGM·Lion 07 Oct 13 - 04:19 AM
McGrath of Harlow 07 Oct 13 - 05:49 AM
Jim Carroll 07 Oct 13 - 06:06 AM
Jim Carroll 07 Oct 13 - 06:39 AM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Oct 13 - 08:00 AM
GUEST,Musket curious 07 Oct 13 - 08:40 PM
McGrath of Harlow 07 Oct 13 - 10:26 PM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Oct 13 - 02:43 AM
GUEST,Musket curious 08 Oct 13 - 03:08 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Oct 13 - 03:24 AM
GUEST,Musket curious 08 Oct 13 - 05:02 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Oct 13 - 05:27 AM
GUEST,Musket evolving slowly 08 Oct 13 - 06:53 AM
MGM·Lion 08 Oct 13 - 07:41 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Oct 13 - 08:00 AM
bobad 08 Oct 13 - 08:11 AM
McGrath of Harlow 08 Oct 13 - 09:58 AM
Jim Carroll 08 Oct 13 - 10:49 AM
GUEST,Musket gettin.. can't be arsed 08 Oct 13 - 11:31 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Oct 13 - 11:58 AM
Jim Carroll 08 Oct 13 - 12:57 PM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Oct 13 - 02:45 PM
Jim Carroll 08 Oct 13 - 03:00 PM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Oct 13 - 06:52 PM
McGrath of Harlow 08 Oct 13 - 07:46 PM
Jim Carroll 09 Oct 13 - 03:15 AM
Keith A of Hertford 09 Oct 13 - 03:22 AM
Keith A of Hertford 09 Oct 13 - 04:44 AM
Jim Carroll 09 Oct 13 - 05:18 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 09 Oct 13 - 05:29 AM
Keith A of Hertford 09 Oct 13 - 06:04 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 09 Oct 13 - 07:48 AM
Keith A of Hertford 09 Oct 13 - 07:50 AM
McGrath of Harlow 09 Oct 13 - 11:23 AM
Jim Carroll 09 Oct 13 - 12:10 PM
Jim Carroll 09 Oct 13 - 12:12 PM
Jim Carroll 09 Oct 13 - 01:12 PM
Greg F. 09 Oct 13 - 01:16 PM
Jim Carroll 09 Oct 13 - 03:20 PM
Keith A of Hertford 09 Oct 13 - 04:10 PM
McGrath of Harlow 09 Oct 13 - 06:47 PM
GUEST,Musket evolving slowly 09 Oct 13 - 09:03 PM
Keith A of Hertford 10 Oct 13 - 01:16 AM
Jim Carroll 10 Oct 13 - 03:18 AM
Keith A of Hertford 10 Oct 13 - 03:27 AM
Jim Carroll 10 Oct 13 - 03:51 AM
Keith A of Hertford 10 Oct 13 - 04:04 AM
Keith A of Hertford 10 Oct 13 - 04:14 AM
Jim Carroll 10 Oct 13 - 05:05 AM
Keith A of Hertford 10 Oct 13 - 06:02 AM
Keith A of Hertford 10 Oct 13 - 06:17 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 10 Oct 13 - 07:02 AM
Jim Carroll 10 Oct 13 - 07:22 AM
Keith A of Hertford 10 Oct 13 - 07:47 AM
MGM·Lion 10 Oct 13 - 10:21 AM
Keith A of Hertford 10 Oct 13 - 10:40 AM
Elmore 10 Oct 13 - 12:55 PM
Greg F. 10 Oct 13 - 01:17 PM
MGM·Lion 10 Oct 13 - 01:56 PM
Elmore 10 Oct 13 - 02:01 PM
McGrath of Harlow 10 Oct 13 - 03:15 PM
Jim Carroll 10 Oct 13 - 03:36 PM
MGM·Lion 10 Oct 13 - 04:29 PM
McGrath of Harlow 10 Oct 13 - 06:04 PM
Greg F. 10 Oct 13 - 06:14 PM
McGrath of Harlow 10 Oct 13 - 07:42 PM
bobad 10 Oct 13 - 07:51 PM
GUEST,Musket evolving slowly 10 Oct 13 - 11:00 PM
Jim Carroll 11 Oct 13 - 01:29 AM
Keith A of Hertford 11 Oct 13 - 02:59 AM
Keith A of Hertford 11 Oct 13 - 07:06 AM
MGM·Lion 11 Oct 13 - 08:22 AM
Keith A of Hertford 11 Oct 13 - 08:40 AM
Keith A of Hertford 11 Oct 13 - 09:23 AM
Greg F. 11 Oct 13 - 11:09 AM
Keith A of Hertford 11 Oct 13 - 03:10 PM
Greg F. 11 Oct 13 - 05:51 PM
Keith A of Hertford 11 Oct 13 - 06:03 PM
Keith A of Hertford 11 Oct 13 - 06:06 PM
Greg F. 11 Oct 13 - 06:15 PM
McGrath of Harlow 11 Oct 13 - 09:13 PM
GUEST,Musket sans Clapton 12 Oct 13 - 12:04 AM
MGM·Lion 12 Oct 13 - 01:20 AM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Oct 13 - 01:55 AM
Jim Carroll 12 Oct 13 - 03:11 AM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Oct 13 - 07:25 AM
Jim Carroll 12 Oct 13 - 08:00 AM
Greg F. 12 Oct 13 - 08:40 AM
Jim Carroll 12 Oct 13 - 10:50 AM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Oct 13 - 10:52 AM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Oct 13 - 11:24 AM
Greg F. 12 Oct 13 - 12:43 PM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Oct 13 - 01:11 PM
GUEST,Musket 12 Oct 13 - 01:35 PM
MGM·Lion 12 Oct 13 - 01:36 PM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 12 Oct 13 - 01:57 PM
Greg F. 12 Oct 13 - 02:38 PM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Oct 13 - 03:55 PM
McGrath of Harlow 12 Oct 13 - 05:30 PM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Oct 13 - 05:52 PM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Oct 13 - 06:36 PM
McGrath of Harlow 12 Oct 13 - 07:14 PM
Backwoodsman 12 Oct 13 - 11:16 PM
Backwoodsman 12 Oct 13 - 11:31 PM
MGM·Lion 13 Oct 13 - 12:02 AM
Backwoodsman 13 Oct 13 - 12:42 AM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Oct 13 - 02:58 AM
Backwoodsman 13 Oct 13 - 03:46 AM
GUEST,Musket again 13 Oct 13 - 03:53 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Oct 13 - 08:41 AM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Oct 13 - 08:57 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Oct 13 - 09:24 AM
GUEST,Musket defining hilarious 13 Oct 13 - 09:50 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Oct 13 - 10:49 AM
bobad 13 Oct 13 - 12:29 PM
GUEST,Musket concerned 13 Oct 13 - 12:45 PM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Oct 13 - 01:05 PM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Oct 13 - 01:11 PM
Jim Carroll 13 Oct 13 - 01:30 PM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Oct 13 - 01:56 PM
Greg F. 13 Oct 13 - 02:20 PM
GUEST,Musket pissing himself laughing 13 Oct 13 - 03:41 PM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Oct 13 - 05:31 PM
Greg F. 13 Oct 13 - 06:19 PM
McGrath of Harlow 13 Oct 13 - 07:22 PM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Oct 13 - 03:06 AM
Jim Carroll 14 Oct 13 - 04:11 AM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Oct 13 - 04:19 AM
GUEST,Musket shaking his head 14 Oct 13 - 05:13 AM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Oct 13 - 05:23 AM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Oct 13 - 05:33 AM
Jim Carroll 14 Oct 13 - 06:25 AM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Oct 13 - 06:56 AM
MGM·Lion 14 Oct 13 - 08:20 AM
Greg F. 14 Oct 13 - 11:38 AM
GUEST,Musket evolving slowly 14 Oct 13 - 01:19 PM
McGrath of Harlow 14 Oct 13 - 03:06 PM
Jim Carroll 14 Oct 13 - 04:15 PM
McGrath of Harlow 14 Oct 13 - 07:10 PM
GUEST,Musket between courses 14 Oct 13 - 07:15 PM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Oct 13 - 02:50 AM
MGM·Lion 15 Oct 13 - 04:01 AM
GUEST,musket playing your game 15 Oct 13 - 04:05 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Oct 13 - 04:28 AM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Oct 13 - 04:52 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 15 Oct 13 - 05:28 AM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Oct 13 - 05:48 AM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Oct 13 - 05:54 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Oct 13 - 06:07 AM
GUEST,CS 15 Oct 13 - 06:07 AM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Oct 13 - 06:29 AM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Oct 13 - 06:49 AM
GUEST,CS 15 Oct 13 - 07:08 AM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Oct 13 - 07:45 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Oct 13 - 08:16 AM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Oct 13 - 08:36 AM
GUEST,Musket between courses 15 Oct 13 - 10:24 AM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Oct 13 - 10:34 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Oct 13 - 11:32 AM
GUEST,CS 15 Oct 13 - 11:33 AM
GUEST,Musket evolving slowly 15 Oct 13 - 11:48 AM
bobad 15 Oct 13 - 12:04 PM
MGM·Lion 15 Oct 13 - 12:07 PM
Greg F. 15 Oct 13 - 12:10 PM
GUEST,CS 15 Oct 13 - 12:52 PM
Jim Carroll 15 Oct 13 - 12:59 PM
GUEST,CS 15 Oct 13 - 01:30 PM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Oct 13 - 03:48 PM
MGM·Lion 15 Oct 13 - 05:21 PM
McGrath of Harlow 15 Oct 13 - 06:36 PM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 15 Oct 13 - 06:45 PM
Greg F. 15 Oct 13 - 08:29 PM
Greg F. 15 Oct 13 - 09:13 PM
McGrath of Harlow 15 Oct 13 - 10:26 PM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Oct 13 - 02:55 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Oct 13 - 04:35 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Oct 13 - 04:43 AM
MGM·Lion 16 Oct 13 - 05:21 AM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Oct 13 - 05:26 AM
MGM·Lion 16 Oct 13 - 05:27 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Oct 13 - 06:04 AM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Oct 13 - 06:11 AM
MGM·Lion 16 Oct 13 - 07:23 AM
McGrath of Harlow 16 Oct 13 - 08:58 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Oct 13 - 09:57 AM
bobad 16 Oct 13 - 10:31 AM
Greg F. 16 Oct 13 - 10:43 AM
McGrath of Harlow 16 Oct 13 - 01:47 PM
GUEST,Musket with a suggestion 16 Oct 13 - 02:21 PM
Greg F. 16 Oct 13 - 04:36 PM
McGrath of Harlow 16 Oct 13 - 06:09 PM
Greg F. 16 Oct 13 - 06:14 PM
McGrath of Harlow 16 Oct 13 - 06:58 PM
McGrath of Harlow 16 Oct 13 - 07:59 PM
GUEST,Musket between courses 17 Oct 13 - 03:32 AM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Oct 13 - 04:14 AM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Oct 13 - 04:17 AM
Jim Carroll 17 Oct 13 - 05:57 AM
Jim Carroll 17 Oct 13 - 06:37 AM
McGrath of Harlow 17 Oct 13 - 07:01 AM
GUEST,Musket between courses 17 Oct 13 - 07:23 AM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Oct 13 - 07:46 AM
Jim Carroll 17 Oct 13 - 08:04 AM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Oct 13 - 08:50 AM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Oct 13 - 09:01 AM
McGrath of Harlow 17 Oct 13 - 10:10 AM
GUEST,Musket curious 17 Oct 13 - 10:30 AM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Oct 13 - 10:34 AM
Jim Carroll 17 Oct 13 - 11:38 AM
GUEST,Musket evolving slowly 17 Oct 13 - 12:19 PM
McGrath of Harlow 17 Oct 13 - 12:37 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 17 Oct 13 - 12:43 PM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Oct 13 - 02:36 PM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Oct 13 - 02:40 PM
MGM·Lion 17 Oct 13 - 04:42 PM
Elmore 17 Oct 13 - 04:55 PM
GUEST,Musket evolving slowly 17 Oct 13 - 07:01 PM
McGrath of Harlow 17 Oct 13 - 07:47 PM
Jim Carroll 18 Oct 13 - 02:17 AM
Keith A of Hertford 18 Oct 13 - 02:57 AM
GUEST,Musket evolving slowly 18 Oct 13 - 03:42 AM
Keith A of Hertford 18 Oct 13 - 03:56 AM
Keith A of Hertford 18 Oct 13 - 04:05 AM
MGM·Lion 18 Oct 13 - 04:40 AM
GUEST,Musket evolving slowly 18 Oct 13 - 04:48 AM
MGM·Lion 18 Oct 13 - 04:54 AM
MGM·Lion 18 Oct 13 - 04:58 AM
Keith A of Hertford 18 Oct 13 - 05:54 AM
GUEST,Musket 18 Oct 13 - 08:07 AM
Keith A of Hertford 18 Oct 13 - 08:25 AM
Jim Carroll 18 Oct 13 - 10:49 AM
McGrath of Harlow 18 Oct 13 - 11:01 AM
Keith A of Hertford 18 Oct 13 - 11:08 AM
GUEST,Musket evolving slowly 18 Oct 13 - 11:50 AM
Jim Carroll 18 Oct 13 - 12:24 PM
Jim Carroll 18 Oct 13 - 12:33 PM
Jim Carroll 18 Oct 13 - 01:34 PM
McGrath of Harlow 18 Oct 13 - 01:43 PM
Jack Campin 18 Oct 13 - 02:06 PM
Keith A of Hertford 18 Oct 13 - 02:36 PM
Jim Carroll 18 Oct 13 - 03:07 PM
GUEST,Musket curious 18 Oct 13 - 03:08 PM
Keith A of Hertford 18 Oct 13 - 05:54 PM
McGrath of Harlow 18 Oct 13 - 07:56 PM
Keith A of Hertford 19 Oct 13 - 02:57 AM
Jim Carroll 19 Oct 13 - 03:30 AM
GUEST,Musket evolving slowly 19 Oct 13 - 04:08 AM
Keith A of Hertford 19 Oct 13 - 05:12 AM
Keith A of Hertford 19 Oct 13 - 05:25 AM
Jim Carroll 19 Oct 13 - 05:50 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 19 Oct 13 - 07:00 AM
Keith A of Hertford 19 Oct 13 - 08:26 AM
GUEST,Musket giggling 19 Oct 13 - 08:56 AM
Steve Shaw 19 Oct 13 - 09:10 AM
GUEST,Jack Campin 19 Oct 13 - 09:20 AM
Keith A of Hertford 19 Oct 13 - 09:52 AM
bobad 19 Oct 13 - 09:53 AM
Keith A of Hertford 19 Oct 13 - 09:57 AM
bobad 19 Oct 13 - 10:10 AM
bobad 19 Oct 13 - 10:20 AM
bobad 19 Oct 13 - 10:21 AM
bobad 19 Oct 13 - 10:23 AM
bobad 19 Oct 13 - 10:25 AM
GUEST,Musket 19 Oct 13 - 10:27 AM
Keith A of Hertford 19 Oct 13 - 11:06 AM
Jim Carroll 19 Oct 13 - 12:14 PM
GUEST,Musket 19 Oct 13 - 12:46 PM
Keith A of Hertford 19 Oct 13 - 12:46 PM
Keith A of Hertford 19 Oct 13 - 01:06 PM
GUEST,Musket 19 Oct 13 - 01:28 PM
Jack Campin 19 Oct 13 - 02:05 PM
Greg F. 19 Oct 13 - 02:10 PM
Keith A of Hertford 19 Oct 13 - 06:28 PM
Jack Campin 19 Oct 13 - 07:19 PM
Keith A of Hertford 20 Oct 13 - 03:03 AM
GUEST,Musket evolving slowly 20 Oct 13 - 03:52 AM
Jim Carroll 20 Oct 13 - 04:13 AM
Jim Carroll 20 Oct 13 - 04:44 AM
Jim Carroll 20 Oct 13 - 05:01 AM
Keith A of Hertford 20 Oct 13 - 05:10 AM
GUEST,Musket curious 20 Oct 13 - 05:22 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 20 Oct 13 - 06:00 AM
Jim Carroll 20 Oct 13 - 06:07 AM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 20 Oct 13 - 11:58 AM
Keith A of Hertford 20 Oct 13 - 12:38 PM
Keith A of Hertford 20 Oct 13 - 12:47 PM
Jim Carroll 20 Oct 13 - 01:23 PM
GUEST,Musket between courses 20 Oct 13 - 01:48 PM
McGrath of Harlow 20 Oct 13 - 01:51 PM
Keith A of Hertford 20 Oct 13 - 02:30 PM
Keith A of Hertford 20 Oct 13 - 02:43 PM
Jim Carroll 20 Oct 13 - 03:14 PM
Jim Carroll 20 Oct 13 - 03:33 PM
Keith A of Hertford 20 Oct 13 - 03:48 PM
bobad 20 Oct 13 - 05:02 PM
Steve Shaw 20 Oct 13 - 06:37 PM
bobad 20 Oct 13 - 07:06 PM
McGrath of Harlow 20 Oct 13 - 07:28 PM
Steve Shaw 20 Oct 13 - 07:44 PM
bobad 20 Oct 13 - 07:49 PM
Greg F. 20 Oct 13 - 09:44 PM
McGrath of Harlow 21 Oct 13 - 06:32 PM
GUEST,Musket evolving slowly 22 Oct 13 - 02:20 AM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Oct 13 - 02:36 AM
Jim Carroll 22 Oct 13 - 03:56 AM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Oct 13 - 04:04 AM
Jim Carroll 22 Oct 13 - 04:22 AM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Oct 13 - 05:25 AM
GUEST,Musket evolving slowly 22 Oct 13 - 05:29 AM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Oct 13 - 05:44 AM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Oct 13 - 05:51 AM
Jim Carroll 22 Oct 13 - 05:56 AM
GUEST,Musket 22 Oct 13 - 06:39 AM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Oct 13 - 07:48 AM
Jim Carroll 22 Oct 13 - 07:49 AM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Oct 13 - 08:02 AM
Jim Carroll 22 Oct 13 - 08:13 AM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Oct 13 - 08:20 AM
GUEST,Musket curious 22 Oct 13 - 08:33 AM
Jim Carroll 22 Oct 13 - 08:34 AM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Oct 13 - 08:44 AM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Oct 13 - 08:54 AM
GUEST,Musket 22 Oct 13 - 01:20 PM
Jim Carroll 22 Oct 13 - 03:00 PM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Oct 13 - 03:14 PM
McGrath of Harlow 22 Oct 13 - 04:39 PM
GUEST,Musket being patriotic 23 Oct 13 - 01:10 AM
Keith A of Hertford 23 Oct 13 - 02:53 AM
Jim Carroll 23 Oct 13 - 04:08 AM
Keith A of Hertford 23 Oct 13 - 04:14 AM
GUEST,Musket 23 Oct 13 - 04:18 AM
McGrath of Harlow 23 Oct 13 - 06:51 AM
bobad 23 Oct 13 - 07:45 AM
Keith A of Hertford 23 Oct 13 - 07:52 AM
GUEST,Musket 23 Oct 13 - 08:28 AM
Greg F. 23 Oct 13 - 09:13 AM
Keith A of Hertford 23 Oct 13 - 09:25 AM
GUEST,Musket evolving slowly 23 Oct 13 - 10:25 AM
Jim Carroll 23 Oct 13 - 10:50 AM
McGrath of Harlow 23 Oct 13 - 01:02 PM
Greg F. 23 Oct 13 - 01:33 PM
Jim Carroll 23 Oct 13 - 01:44 PM
Keith A of Hertford 23 Oct 13 - 02:44 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 23 Oct 13 - 03:01 PM
Keith A of Hertford 23 Oct 13 - 03:11 PM
Keith A of Hertford 23 Oct 13 - 03:18 PM
Jim Carroll 23 Oct 13 - 03:30 PM
Keith A of Hertford 23 Oct 13 - 04:41 PM
MGM·Lion 23 Oct 13 - 05:06 PM
Greg F. 23 Oct 13 - 05:48 PM
Keith A of Hertford 23 Oct 13 - 06:00 PM
GUEST,Musket evolving slowly 23 Oct 13 - 06:05 PM
McGrath of Harlow 23 Oct 13 - 10:19 PM
Jim Carroll 24 Oct 13 - 04:26 AM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Oct 13 - 04:39 AM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Oct 13 - 04:44 AM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Oct 13 - 04:49 AM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Oct 13 - 04:52 AM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Oct 13 - 04:57 AM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Oct 13 - 05:02 AM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Oct 13 - 05:13 AM
Jim Carroll 24 Oct 13 - 06:21 AM
Jim Carroll 24 Oct 13 - 06:24 AM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Oct 13 - 07:33 AM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Oct 13 - 08:08 AM
Jim Carroll 24 Oct 13 - 10:06 AM
Jim Carroll 24 Oct 13 - 10:11 AM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Oct 13 - 10:22 AM
GUEST,Musket laughing 24 Oct 13 - 01:04 PM
Jim Carroll 24 Oct 13 - 01:16 PM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Oct 13 - 02:40 PM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Oct 13 - 02:51 PM
McGrath of Harlow 24 Oct 13 - 10:54 PM
Elmore 24 Oct 13 - 11:21 PM
MGM·Lion 25 Oct 13 - 12:57 AM
GUEST,Musket between courses 25 Oct 13 - 01:06 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Oct 13 - 02:59 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Oct 13 - 03:03 AM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Oct 13 - 03:08 AM
Joe Offer 25 Oct 13 - 03:16 AM
GUEST,Musket between courses 25 Oct 13 - 04:07 AM
Backwoodsman 25 Oct 13 - 04:09 AM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Oct 13 - 04:15 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Oct 13 - 04:47 AM
GUEST,Musket between courses 25 Oct 13 - 05:07 AM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Oct 13 - 05:54 AM
bobad 25 Oct 13 - 07:32 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 25 Oct 13 - 02:28 PM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Oct 13 - 03:32 PM
Elmore 25 Oct 13 - 04:11 PM
Greg F. 25 Oct 13 - 04:21 PM
McGrath of Harlow 25 Oct 13 - 04:41 PM
McGrath of Harlow 25 Oct 13 - 05:47 PM
Joe Offer 25 Oct 13 - 08:20 PM
Elmore 25 Oct 13 - 08:54 PM
McGrath of Harlow 25 Oct 13 - 10:19 PM
GUEST,Musket between courses 26 Oct 13 - 03:16 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 26 Oct 13 - 05:49 AM
McGrath of Harlow 26 Oct 13 - 08:07 AM
MGM·Lion 26 Oct 13 - 08:38 AM
Backwoodsman 26 Oct 13 - 10:27 AM
Elmore 26 Oct 13 - 11:23 AM
McGrath of Harlow 26 Oct 13 - 12:06 PM
GUEST,Musket sans knackers 26 Oct 13 - 12:41 PM
Backwoodsman 26 Oct 13 - 12:47 PM
Backwoodsman 26 Oct 13 - 03:26 PM
Backwoodsman 26 Oct 13 - 03:51 PM
McGrath of Harlow 26 Oct 13 - 09:06 PM
MGM·Lion 27 Oct 13 - 02:39 AM
GUEST,Musket getting his tuppence worth 27 Oct 13 - 03:55 AM
Backwoodsman 27 Oct 13 - 04:29 AM
GUEST,Musket 27 Oct 13 - 05:20 AM
McGrath of Harlow 27 Oct 13 - 05:24 AM
GUEST,Musket 27 Oct 13 - 06:17 AM
GUEST,keith 03 Nov 13 - 10:33 AM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Nov 13 - 11:10 AM
GUEST,Musket curious 03 Nov 13 - 12:45 PM
McGrath of Harlow 03 Nov 13 - 01:29 PM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Nov 13 - 01:52 PM
Greg F. 03 Nov 13 - 02:10 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 03 Nov 13 - 05:10 PM
GUEST 03 Nov 13 - 05:30 PM
bobad 03 Nov 13 - 06:47 PM
Elmore 03 Nov 13 - 08:43 PM
McGrath of Harlow 03 Nov 13 - 08:44 PM
Elmore 03 Nov 13 - 09:48 PM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Nov 13 - 02:49 AM
GUEST,Peter 04 Nov 13 - 04:07 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Nov 13 - 04:19 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 04 Nov 13 - 05:49 AM
GUEST,Musket the radical hippy 04 Nov 13 - 06:52 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Nov 13 - 06:54 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Nov 13 - 06:59 AM
Van 04 Nov 13 - 07:14 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Nov 13 - 07:57 AM
GUEST,Musket smiling 04 Nov 13 - 11:44 AM
Elmore 04 Nov 13 - 12:10 PM
GUEST,Musket 04 Nov 13 - 12:23 PM
Elmore 04 Nov 13 - 02:26 PM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Nov 13 - 03:13 PM
Elmore 04 Nov 13 - 04:14 PM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Nov 13 - 05:11 PM
Elmore 04 Nov 13 - 05:36 PM
GUEST 04 Nov 13 - 06:55 PM
Elmore 04 Nov 13 - 07:54 PM
McGrath of Harlow 04 Nov 13 - 07:56 PM
Elmore 04 Nov 13 - 08:00 PM
GUEST,Musket evolving slowly 05 Nov 13 - 12:57 AM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Nov 13 - 02:51 AM
GUEST,Musket gettin.. can't be arsed 05 Nov 13 - 05:47 AM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Nov 13 - 05:59 AM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Nov 13 - 07:58 AM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Nov 13 - 08:44 AM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Nov 13 - 09:17 AM
GUEST,Musket curious 05 Nov 13 - 10:44 AM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Nov 13 - 05:38 PM
Elmore 05 Nov 13 - 05:48 PM
McGrath of Harlow 05 Nov 13 - 09:49 PM
McGrath of Harlow 05 Nov 13 - 09:54 PM
Elmore 05 Nov 13 - 10:06 PM
GUEST,Musket evolving slowly 06 Nov 13 - 01:02 AM
Keith A of Hertford 06 Nov 13 - 02:52 AM
GUEST,Musket between courses 06 Nov 13 - 05:28 AM
Keith A of Hertford 06 Nov 13 - 06:12 AM
GUEST,Musket curious 06 Nov 13 - 09:59 AM
Keith A of Hertford 06 Nov 13 - 10:10 AM
Keith A of Hertford 06 Nov 13 - 10:17 AM
McGrath of Harlow 06 Nov 13 - 11:16 AM
McGrath of Harlow 06 Nov 13 - 11:22 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 06 Nov 13 - 11:42 AM
Elmore 06 Nov 13 - 11:48 AM
GUEST,Musket 06 Nov 13 - 12:05 PM
McGrath of Harlow 06 Nov 13 - 12:50 PM
GUEST,Musket 06 Nov 13 - 01:12 PM
Keith A of Hertford 06 Nov 13 - 05:53 PM
Greg F. 06 Nov 13 - 06:18 PM
McGrath of Harlow 06 Nov 13 - 07:50 PM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Nov 13 - 01:14 AM
GUEST,Musket curious 07 Nov 13 - 02:29 AM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Nov 13 - 02:57 AM
GUEST,Musket evolving slowly 07 Nov 13 - 05:04 AM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Nov 13 - 06:07 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 07 Nov 13 - 06:37 AM
GUEST,Musket's turn 07 Nov 13 - 06:45 AM
McGrath of Harlow 07 Nov 13 - 07:19 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 07 Nov 13 - 07:48 AM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Nov 13 - 08:04 AM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Nov 13 - 08:19 AM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Nov 13 - 08:32 AM
GUEST,Musket noting 07 Nov 13 - 10:05 AM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Nov 13 - 10:28 AM
McGrath of Harlow 07 Nov 13 - 10:40 AM
GUEST,Musket shaking his head slowly 07 Nov 13 - 11:32 AM
McGrath of Harlow 07 Nov 13 - 12:56 PM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Nov 13 - 02:30 PM
GUEST,Muskets made up shit 08 Nov 13 - 01:13 PM
McGrath of Harlow 08 Nov 13 - 03:34 PM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Nov 13 - 05:10 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 08 Nov 13 - 07:21 PM
McGrath of Harlow 08 Nov 13 - 08:05 PM
Keith A of Hertford 09 Nov 13 - 02:18 AM
GUEST,Musket evolving slowly 09 Nov 13 - 02:30 AM
GUEST,Musket grovelling 09 Nov 13 - 03:00 AM
Keith A of Hertford 09 Nov 13 - 04:24 AM
GUEST,Musket being patriotic 09 Nov 13 - 09:58 AM
McGrath of Harlow 09 Nov 13 - 11:22 AM
GUEST,keith A 09 Nov 13 - 12:12 PM
GUEST,Musket 09 Nov 13 - 12:26 PM
McGrath of Harlow 09 Nov 13 - 01:22 PM
GUEST,keith A 09 Nov 13 - 04:08 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 09 Nov 13 - 06:06 PM
McGrath of Harlow 09 Nov 13 - 06:59 PM
GUEST,keith 10 Nov 13 - 02:17 AM
GUEST,Musket evolving slowly 10 Nov 13 - 02:54 AM
GUEST,keith. 10 Nov 13 - 01:00 PM
GUEST,keith. 10 Nov 13 - 01:14 PM
GUEST,Musket curious 10 Nov 13 - 01:16 PM
MGM·Lion 10 Nov 13 - 01:47 PM
GUEST,keith 10 Nov 13 - 02:26 PM
McGrath of Harlow 10 Nov 13 - 03:39 PM
GUEST,Musket evolving slowly 10 Nov 13 - 05:20 PM
GUEST,CS 10 Nov 13 - 05:55 PM
GUEST,CS 10 Nov 13 - 05:58 PM
Keith A of Hertford 11 Nov 13 - 02:50 AM
GUEST,Musket 11 Nov 13 - 05:39 AM
Keith A of Hertford 11 Nov 13 - 07:13 AM
GUEST,Musket smiling 11 Nov 13 - 07:43 AM
Keith A of Hertford 11 Nov 13 - 07:52 AM
GUEST,Musket the detective 11 Nov 13 - 08:44 AM
Keith A of Hertford 11 Nov 13 - 08:49 AM
GUEST,Musket giving you a chance 11 Nov 13 - 10:11 AM
Keith A of Hertford 11 Nov 13 - 10:21 AM
Keith A of Hertford 11 Nov 13 - 10:24 AM
Stringsinger 11 Nov 13 - 01:09 PM
bobad 11 Nov 13 - 01:19 PM
bobad 11 Nov 13 - 01:22 PM
bobad 11 Nov 13 - 01:24 PM
bobad 11 Nov 13 - 01:25 PM
bobad 11 Nov 13 - 01:28 PM
bobad 11 Nov 13 - 01:29 PM
GUEST,Musket friendly advice 11 Nov 13 - 02:10 PM
Greg F. 11 Nov 13 - 02:38 PM
Keith A of Hertford 11 Nov 13 - 03:48 PM
GUEST,Musket curious 12 Nov 13 - 02:31 AM
Elmore 12 Nov 13 - 07:57 PM
Elmore 13 Nov 13 - 08:06 PM
GUEST,Musket getting his tuppence worth 14 Nov 13 - 03:25 AM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Nov 13 - 03:33 AM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Nov 13 - 09:09 AM
GUEST,Musket 14 Nov 13 - 09:11 AM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Nov 13 - 09:27 AM
GUEST,Musket 14 Nov 13 - 11:05 AM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Nov 13 - 11:28 AM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Nov 13 - 02:54 AM
GUEST,Musket curious 15 Nov 13 - 03:41 AM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Nov 13 - 04:09 AM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Nov 13 - 04:32 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Nov 13 - 05:20 AM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Nov 13 - 05:35 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Nov 13 - 06:31 AM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Nov 13 - 07:02 AM
Greg F. 15 Nov 13 - 10:11 AM
GUEST,Musket gettin.. can't be arsed 15 Nov 13 - 01:43 PM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Nov 13 - 03:43 PM
Elmore 15 Nov 13 - 04:40 PM
bobad 15 Nov 13 - 04:58 PM
Greg F. 15 Nov 13 - 05:48 PM
Greg F. 15 Nov 13 - 06:26 PM
GUEST,Musket curious 16 Nov 13 - 02:09 AM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Nov 13 - 02:36 AM
GUEST,Musket curious 16 Nov 13 - 03:52 AM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Nov 13 - 04:14 AM
bobad 16 Nov 13 - 08:03 AM
GUEST,Musket getting Pissed off now 16 Nov 13 - 08:28 AM
Elmore 16 Nov 13 - 12:02 PM
Greg F. 16 Nov 13 - 01:36 PM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Nov 13 - 01:57 PM
GUEST,Musket evolving slowly 16 Nov 13 - 03:03 PM
Elmore 16 Nov 13 - 04:07 PM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Nov 13 - 02:08 AM
GUEST,Musket curious 17 Nov 13 - 02:20 AM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Nov 13 - 05:01 AM
bobad 17 Nov 13 - 08:27 AM
GUEST,Musket 17 Nov 13 - 11:04 AM
bobad 18 Nov 13 - 08:08 AM
Musket 19 Nov 13 - 08:18 AM
Keith A of Hertford 19 Nov 13 - 08:51 AM
Elmore 19 Nov 13 - 12:31 PM
Elmore 19 Nov 13 - 01:48 PM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 19 Nov 13 - 01:54 PM
GUEST,Musket being patriotic 19 Nov 13 - 02:25 PM
Elmore 19 Nov 13 - 02:45 PM
GUEST,Troubadour 19 Nov 13 - 07:28 PM
GUEST,musket triumphant 20 Nov 13 - 03:53 AM
Keith A of Hertford 20 Nov 13 - 04:31 AM
GUEST,Musket curious 20 Nov 13 - 05:34 AM
Keith A of Hertford 20 Nov 13 - 05:40 AM
Keith A of Hertford 20 Nov 13 - 05:53 AM
Musket 20 Nov 13 - 07:37 AM
Keith A of Hertford 20 Nov 13 - 08:02 AM
bobad 20 Nov 13 - 08:16 AM
Musket 20 Nov 13 - 08:28 AM
Keith A of Hertford 20 Nov 13 - 08:34 AM
MGM·Lion 20 Nov 13 - 09:00 AM
Musket 20 Nov 13 - 09:43 AM
Keith A of Hertford 20 Nov 13 - 09:53 AM
GUEST,Musket 24 Nov 13 - 05:46 AM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Nov 13 - 11:05 AM
Elmore 24 Nov 13 - 12:58 PM
MGM·Lion 24 Nov 13 - 01:26 PM
MGM·Lion 24 Nov 13 - 01:27 PM
MGM·Lion 25 Nov 13 - 12:44 PM
GUEST,Musket 25 Nov 13 - 01:01 PM
McGrath of Harlow 25 Nov 13 - 02:30 PM
GUEST,Musket getting bored now 25 Nov 13 - 04:40 PM
Keith A of Hertford 26 Nov 13 - 03:24 AM
GUEST,musket asking the point 26 Nov 13 - 04:18 AM
Keith A of Hertford 26 Nov 13 - 04:24 AM
Stringsinger 26 Nov 13 - 02:12 PM
GUEST,Musket 26 Nov 13 - 03:41 PM
bobad 08 Dec 13 - 08:39 AM
GUEST,musket again 08 Dec 13 - 05:05 PM
Jim Carroll 14 Dec 13 - 04:24 AM
GUEST,Musket 14 Dec 13 - 09:25 AM
Jim Carroll 14 Dec 13 - 11:39 AM
Elmore 14 Dec 13 - 11:56 AM
bobad 14 Dec 13 - 01:38 PM
Jim Carroll 14 Dec 13 - 03:43 PM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Dec 13 - 02:40 AM
GUEST,Musket 15 Dec 13 - 02:59 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Dec 13 - 04:03 AM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Dec 13 - 08:58 AM
GUEST,Musket 15 Dec 13 - 09:34 AM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Dec 13 - 09:41 AM
GUEST,Musket once more into the britches 15 Dec 13 - 11:25 AM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Dec 13 - 11:37 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Dec 13 - 11:59 AM
Elmore 15 Dec 13 - 12:17 PM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Dec 13 - 12:28 PM
bobad 15 Dec 13 - 01:24 PM
GUEST,Musket 15 Dec 13 - 01:46 PM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Dec 13 - 01:52 PM
Jim Carroll 15 Dec 13 - 02:05 PM
Elmore 15 Dec 13 - 02:14 PM
bobad 15 Dec 13 - 02:34 PM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Dec 13 - 02:51 PM
Jim Carroll 15 Dec 13 - 03:11 PM
Elmore 15 Dec 13 - 03:13 PM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Dec 13 - 03:59 PM
Jim Carroll 15 Dec 13 - 04:44 PM
GUEST,Musket 16 Dec 13 - 01:35 AM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Dec 13 - 02:12 AM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Dec 13 - 02:52 AM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Dec 13 - 03:08 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Dec 13 - 04:44 AM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Dec 13 - 05:26 AM
GUEST,Musket 16 Dec 13 - 05:35 AM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Dec 13 - 06:01 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Dec 13 - 06:51 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Dec 13 - 06:51 AM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Dec 13 - 07:44 AM
Elmore 16 Dec 13 - 09:28 AM
bobad 16 Dec 13 - 09:36 AM
GUEST,Musket 16 Dec 13 - 09:36 AM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Dec 13 - 09:53 AM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Dec 13 - 10:04 AM
Elmore 16 Dec 13 - 10:48 AM
Elmore 16 Dec 13 - 11:01 AM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Dec 13 - 11:19 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Dec 13 - 11:32 AM
GUEST,Troubadour 16 Dec 13 - 11:50 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Dec 13 - 11:54 AM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Dec 13 - 12:32 PM
Elmore 16 Dec 13 - 01:51 PM
Jim Carroll 16 Dec 13 - 02:43 PM
Jim Carroll 16 Dec 13 - 03:12 PM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Dec 13 - 05:41 PM
ollaimh 16 Dec 13 - 10:03 PM
Jim Carroll 17 Dec 13 - 04:05 AM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Dec 13 - 04:15 AM
GUEST,Troubadour 17 Dec 13 - 04:39 AM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Dec 13 - 05:24 AM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Dec 13 - 05:33 AM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Dec 13 - 05:36 AM
Jim Carroll 17 Dec 13 - 05:40 AM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Dec 13 - 05:46 AM
bobad 17 Dec 13 - 11:36 AM
GUEST,Musket 17 Dec 13 - 11:56 AM
Jim Carroll 17 Dec 13 - 01:41 PM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Dec 13 - 02:08 PM
Keith A of Hertford 18 Dec 13 - 02:42 AM
Keith A of Hertford 18 Dec 13 - 03:00 AM
Keith A of Hertford 18 Dec 13 - 03:11 AM
GUEST,Musket 18 Dec 13 - 04:03 AM
Keith A of Hertford 18 Dec 13 - 04:05 AM
bobad 18 Dec 13 - 08:17 AM
Keith A of Hertford 18 Dec 13 - 09:05 AM
Jim Carroll 18 Dec 13 - 10:18 AM
Keith A of Hertford 18 Dec 13 - 11:49 AM
Keith A of Hertford 19 Dec 13 - 02:57 AM
GUEST,Musket 19 Dec 13 - 04:32 AM
Keith A of Hertford 19 Dec 13 - 05:34 AM
Jim Carroll 19 Dec 13 - 05:48 AM
Keith A of Hertford 19 Dec 13 - 06:02 AM
GUEST,Troubadour 19 Dec 13 - 06:42 AM
GUEST,Troubadour 19 Dec 13 - 06:58 AM
Keith A of Hertford 19 Dec 13 - 07:07 AM
GUEST 19 Dec 13 - 07:37 AM
Keith A of Hertford 19 Dec 13 - 07:46 AM
bobad 19 Dec 13 - 08:03 AM
Keith A of Hertford 19 Dec 13 - 08:10 AM
bobad 19 Dec 13 - 08:10 AM
Keith A of Hertford 19 Dec 13 - 09:27 AM
Jim Carroll 19 Dec 13 - 10:06 AM
GUEST,Musket 19 Dec 13 - 12:15 PM
Keith A of Hertford 19 Dec 13 - 01:00 PM
Jim Carroll 19 Dec 13 - 01:16 PM
Keith A of Hertford 19 Dec 13 - 02:56 PM
Greg F. 19 Dec 13 - 03:06 PM
bobad 19 Dec 13 - 03:11 PM
GUEST 19 Dec 13 - 04:23 PM
Keith A of Hertford 19 Dec 13 - 07:31 PM
GUEST,Musket 20 Dec 13 - 03:24 AM
Keith A of Hertford 20 Dec 13 - 04:13 AM
bobad 20 Dec 13 - 08:13 AM
GUEST,Musket 20 Dec 13 - 09:15 AM
GUEST,Musket 20 Dec 13 - 10:34 AM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Dec 13 - 01:43 AM
GUEST,Musket 21 Dec 13 - 02:14 AM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Dec 13 - 05:39 AM
GUEST,Musket 21 Dec 13 - 10:15 AM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Dec 13 - 10:23 AM
GUEST,Musket 21 Dec 13 - 12:15 PM
GUEST,Troubadour 21 Dec 13 - 12:23 PM
bobad 21 Dec 13 - 01:31 PM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Dec 13 - 02:54 PM
Keith A of Hertford 23 Dec 13 - 03:03 AM
GUEST,Musket 23 Dec 13 - 04:27 AM
Keith A of Hertford 23 Dec 13 - 04:35 AM
Keith A of Hertford 23 Dec 13 - 04:56 AM
Greg F. 23 Dec 13 - 10:15 AM
GUEST,Musket 23 Dec 13 - 10:48 AM
GUEST 23 Dec 13 - 10:54 AM
MGM·Lion 23 Dec 13 - 11:12 AM
MGM·Lion 23 Dec 13 - 11:23 AM
Elmore 23 Dec 13 - 03:17 PM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Dec 13 - 01:28 AM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Dec 13 - 01:51 AM
GUEST,Musket 24 Dec 13 - 02:37 AM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Dec 13 - 07:44 AM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Dec 13 - 07:49 AM
MGM·Lion 24 Dec 13 - 07:54 AM
bobad 25 Dec 13 - 12:01 PM
GUEST,Musket 25 Dec 13 - 12:46 PM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Dec 13 - 01:03 PM
GUEST,Musket 25 Dec 13 - 02:23 PM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Dec 13 - 03:15 PM
GUEST,Musket 26 Dec 13 - 03:02 AM
Keith A of Hertford 26 Dec 13 - 04:12 AM
Keith A of Hertford 26 Dec 13 - 04:19 AM
GUEST,Musket 26 Dec 13 - 06:50 AM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Dec 13 - 01:25 AM
MGM·Lion 27 Dec 13 - 02:14 AM
MGM·Lion 27 Dec 13 - 03:08 AM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Dec 13 - 04:38 AM
GUEST,Musket 27 Dec 13 - 04:58 AM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Dec 13 - 05:06 AM
MGM·Lion 27 Dec 13 - 06:46 AM
bobad 27 Dec 13 - 07:58 AM
Greg F. 27 Dec 13 - 09:36 AM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Dec 13 - 10:14 AM
MGM·Lion 27 Dec 13 - 10:29 AM
GUEST,Musket 27 Dec 13 - 10:39 AM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Dec 13 - 11:45 AM
GUEST,Musket 27 Dec 13 - 12:16 PM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Dec 13 - 12:25 PM
Greg F. 27 Dec 13 - 12:30 PM
MGM·Lion 27 Dec 13 - 03:08 PM
MGM·Lion 27 Dec 13 - 03:12 PM
Greg F. 27 Dec 13 - 05:26 PM
akenaton 27 Dec 13 - 06:52 PM
GUEST,Musket 28 Dec 13 - 03:01 AM
Keith A of Hertford 28 Dec 13 - 03:09 AM
MGM·Lion 28 Dec 13 - 03:42 AM
GUEST,Musket 28 Dec 13 - 03:58 AM
Keith A of Hertford 28 Dec 13 - 05:34 AM
GUEST,Musket 28 Dec 13 - 08:23 AM
Keith A of Hertford 28 Dec 13 - 11:00 AM
GUEST,Musket 28 Dec 13 - 11:10 AM
Keith A of Hertford 28 Dec 13 - 11:25 AM
Keith A of Hertford 29 Dec 13 - 02:02 AM
Greg F. 29 Dec 13 - 12:33 PM
Keith A of Hertford 29 Dec 13 - 12:36 PM
GUEST,Musket 29 Dec 13 - 12:45 PM
Keith A of Hertford 29 Dec 13 - 01:31 PM
Elmore 29 Dec 13 - 06:16 PM
Greg F. 29 Dec 13 - 06:33 PM
GUEST,Troubadour 29 Dec 13 - 07:14 PM
Keith A of Hertford 30 Dec 13 - 02:26 AM
GUEST,Musket 30 Dec 13 - 08:32 AM
bobad 30 Dec 13 - 08:39 AM
Keith A of Hertford 30 Dec 13 - 08:54 AM
akenaton 30 Dec 13 - 04:36 PM
GUEST,Musket 30 Dec 13 - 04:53 PM
Greg F. 30 Dec 13 - 05:31 PM
Keith A of Hertford 31 Dec 13 - 01:28 AM
bobad 31 Dec 13 - 08:23 AM
Greg F. 31 Dec 13 - 09:41 AM
Greg F. 31 Dec 13 - 10:14 AM
Keith A of Hertford 31 Dec 13 - 10:27 AM
Greg F. 31 Dec 13 - 11:03 AM
GUEST,Musket 31 Dec 13 - 11:39 AM
Keith A of Hertford 31 Dec 13 - 12:04 PM
Greg F. 31 Dec 13 - 12:10 PM
Keith A of Hertford 31 Dec 13 - 12:38 PM
Keith A of Hertford 31 Dec 13 - 12:47 PM
Greg F. 31 Dec 13 - 04:47 PM
GUEST 31 Dec 13 - 06:38 PM
GUEST 31 Dec 13 - 06:39 PM
GUEST,Troubadour 31 Dec 13 - 06:50 PM
Elmore 31 Dec 13 - 09:44 PM
MGM·Lion 01 Jan 14 - 01:29 AM
GUEST,Musket 01 Jan 14 - 03:21 AM
MGM·Lion 01 Jan 14 - 04:35 AM
MGM·Lion 01 Jan 14 - 04:59 AM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Jan 14 - 05:47 AM
GUEST,Musket 01 Jan 14 - 11:23 AM
Elmore 01 Jan 14 - 06:15 PM
GUEST 01 Jan 14 - 06:26 PM
Greg F. 01 Jan 14 - 06:34 PM
GUEST 01 Jan 14 - 06:36 PM
GUEST 02 Jan 14 - 01:19 AM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Jan 14 - 04:29 AM
GUEST,Musket 02 Jan 14 - 04:40 AM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Jan 14 - 04:49 AM
MGM·Lion 02 Jan 14 - 05:14 AM
bobad 02 Jan 14 - 08:15 AM
Jim Carroll 10 Jan 14 - 02:53 PM
MGM·Lion 10 Jan 14 - 03:44 PM
GUEST,Musket 10 Jan 14 - 04:02 PM
MGM·Lion 10 Jan 14 - 04:18 PM
GUEST 10 Jan 14 - 04:38 PM
Jim Carroll 11 Jan 14 - 05:20 AM
Keith A of Hertford 11 Jan 14 - 05:36 AM
Keith A of Hertford 11 Jan 14 - 05:47 AM
Jim Carroll 11 Jan 14 - 05:52 AM
Keith A of Hertford 11 Jan 14 - 06:19 AM
MGM·Lion 11 Jan 14 - 06:30 AM
MGM·Lion 11 Jan 14 - 06:45 AM
Jim Carroll 11 Jan 14 - 06:54 AM
MGM·Lion 11 Jan 14 - 07:02 AM
Jim Carroll 11 Jan 14 - 07:17 AM
MGM·Lion 11 Jan 14 - 08:12 AM
Jim Carroll 11 Jan 14 - 08:13 AM
MGM·Lion 11 Jan 14 - 09:24 AM
GUEST,Musket 11 Jan 14 - 10:04 AM
bobad 11 Jan 14 - 10:12 AM
Keith A of Hertford 11 Jan 14 - 10:31 AM
Jim Carroll 11 Jan 14 - 10:57 AM
MGM·Lion 11 Jan 14 - 11:25 AM
MGM·Lion 12 Jan 14 - 01:14 AM
MGM·Lion 12 Jan 14 - 01:22 AM
GUEST,Musket 12 Jan 14 - 02:24 AM
MGM·Lion 12 Jan 14 - 02:46 AM
Jim Carroll 12 Jan 14 - 03:52 AM
MGM·Lion 12 Jan 14 - 04:15 AM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Jan 14 - 04:54 AM
Jim Carroll 12 Jan 14 - 05:02 AM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Jan 14 - 05:06 AM
Jim Carroll 12 Jan 14 - 06:10 AM
GUEST,Musket 12 Jan 14 - 06:43 AM
MGM·Lion 12 Jan 14 - 07:06 AM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Jan 14 - 07:19 AM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Jan 14 - 07:26 AM
Jim Carroll 12 Jan 14 - 07:28 AM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Jan 14 - 08:00 AM
Jim Carroll 12 Jan 14 - 08:46 AM
Jim Carroll 12 Jan 14 - 08:54 AM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Jan 14 - 09:47 AM
Greg F. 12 Jan 14 - 10:36 AM
Jim Carroll 12 Jan 14 - 10:42 AM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Jan 14 - 11:14 AM
GUEST,Musket 12 Jan 14 - 11:29 AM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Jan 14 - 12:25 PM
Jim Carroll 12 Jan 14 - 12:53 PM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Jan 14 - 01:43 PM
GUEST,Musket 12 Jan 14 - 02:14 PM
Jim Carroll 12 Jan 14 - 02:36 PM
MGM·Lion 12 Jan 14 - 02:46 PM
bobad 12 Jan 14 - 03:08 PM
MGM·Lion 12 Jan 14 - 03:19 PM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Jan 14 - 05:27 PM
Jim Carroll 13 Jan 14 - 04:14 AM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Jan 14 - 04:43 AM
GUEST,Musket 13 Jan 14 - 04:49 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Jan 14 - 06:37 AM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Jan 14 - 07:45 AM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Jan 14 - 09:18 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Jan 14 - 10:02 AM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Jan 14 - 10:11 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Jan 14 - 10:48 AM
MGM·Lion 13 Jan 14 - 12:23 PM
MGM·Lion 13 Jan 14 - 12:39 PM
Jim Carroll 13 Jan 14 - 01:00 PM
MGM·Lion 13 Jan 14 - 02:50 PM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Jan 14 - 03:30 PM
Jim Carroll 14 Jan 14 - 04:49 AM
MGM·Lion 14 Jan 14 - 05:10 AM
Jim Carroll 14 Jan 14 - 05:10 AM
MGM·Lion 14 Jan 14 - 05:20 AM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Jan 14 - 05:21 AM
Jim Carroll 14 Jan 14 - 06:14 AM
GUEST 14 Jan 14 - 06:16 AM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Jan 14 - 06:56 AM
MGM·Lion 14 Jan 14 - 06:59 AM
Jim Carroll 14 Jan 14 - 08:00 AM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Jan 14 - 08:09 AM
Jim Carroll 14 Jan 14 - 08:13 AM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Jan 14 - 08:24 AM
bobad 14 Jan 14 - 09:34 AM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Jan 14 - 09:56 AM
GUEST, Musket 14 Jan 14 - 10:27 AM
Jim Carroll 14 Jan 14 - 10:53 AM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Jan 14 - 11:00 AM
GUEST 14 Jan 14 - 04:41 PM
GUEST 14 Jan 14 - 04:50 PM
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Subject: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 04:55 AM

report by Vatican-approved agency Aid to the Church in Need suggested 75% of religious persecution around the world is directed against Christians, affecting 100 million people.

The church highlighted the assassination of Pakistani Minority Affairs Minister Shahbaz Bhatti at the start of March.

Mr Bhatti was the only Christian member of the cabinet in Pakistan.

Cardinal O'Brien said: "I urge William Hague to obtain guarantees from foreign governments before they are given aid.

"To increase aid to the Pakistan government when religious freedom is not upheld and those who speak up for religious freedom are gunned down is tantamount to an anti-Christian foreign policy.

"Pressure should now be put on the government of Pakistan - and the governments of the Arab world as well - to ensure that religious freedom is upheld, the provision of aid must require a commitment to human rights."

He said the report's estimate of persecution against Christians was "intolerable and unacceptable".
he report also highlights the Christian population of Iraq, which it says has gone from an estimated 1.4 million to as low as 150,000 over the past 25 years.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/mobile/uk-scotland-12738479


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 06:44 AM

Surely Bhatti was assassinated not because he was Xtian but because he was proposing (rightly)the reform of Pakistan's blasphemy laws and also (and also rightly) the pardon of the Xtian woman sentenced to death for blaspheming the prophet after a row in the agricultural fields with some rather fundamentalist women.

If I am right he was assassinated not for what he was but for what he said.

I would however be surprised if these Vatican figures were right.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 06:52 AM

The blasphemy law is used to persecute Christians.
Christians do not believe Mohammed was the greatest prophet.
That is blasphemy and carries the death penalty.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Wesley S
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 06:56 AM

Pass the popcorn. This ought to be good for about 500 posts.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 07:01 AM

I see Dr. Nazir Bhatti, President of Pakistan Christian Congress said that the UK aids Pakistan under pressure of British Pakistani Muslims but not for protection of Christian, Ahmadi or Shaia communities.

British aid is not utilized on public welfare but enjoyed by armed forces of Pakistan and ISI which recruits and supports militants for terror in Afghanistan, Kashmir and India. The ISI operatives in radicalised British Pakistani Muslim for London suicide bombing.

Dr. Bhatti was commenting on the statement of Foreign Minister Mr. Burt, responding on objections raised on Britain aid to Pakistan by Cardinal O'Brien in which he expressed concern on doubling aid to Pakistan when incidents of violence are rising against religious minorities in Pakistan.

Britain should aid Civil Society organizations for social welfare uplift of Pakistani people and religious minorities instead of the government of Pakistan that armed forces may not use it to spread terror.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 09:30 AM

Take the cross, grab your rifle and cry: "Deus lo vult!"


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 09:47 AM

A piece by Damien Thompson.
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/damianthompson/100079884/is-britains-foreign-policy-anti-christian-not-particularly-we-just-do

(Damian Thompson is a British journalist, author and blogger. He is Blogs Editor of the Telegraph Media Group, with responsibility for editing and commissioning blogs on politics, religion, finance and culture for Telegraph.co.uk. He blogs mainly about religion. He is also a regular leader writer for The Daily Telegraph and former Editor-in-Chief of the Catholic Herald. He remains a Director of the Catholic Herald and has a Ph.D in the sociology of religion. He has written two books about apocalyptic belief and one about counterknowledge, "misinformation packaged to look like fact".


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 09:50 AM

You know, I've had just about had it with the whining about persecution from so-called "Christians".

I seem to recall that Jesus explained that it was not easy being a Christian, and that none should expect it to be anything but hard work.

I also seem to recall that

".....[Jesus] opened his mouth, and taught them, saying...

Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.

Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.
"

So let's hear less pissing and moaning and whining and mewling and complaining and more rejoicing and gladness. And getting on with the hard work of being a Christian.

Its right there in the "Christians"[sic] own play book. Can't argue with The Word Of God, right?


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 10:08 AM

No sympathy expressed so far.
Just sneering and hate.

The Independent, 2nd Jan 2011.
some church leaders are urging their remaining flock to abandon Iraq before it is too late and they are massacred.

If al-Qa'ida has its way, this ancient culture and people will soon be no more. In recent days, grenade and bomb attacks killed two more Christians and injured 18 more in Baghdad. Motorcyclists drove down streets, targeting Christian homes. Back in October, suicide bombers attacked the Church of Our Salvation in Baghdad, killing 58, before – and this was unreported at the time – grotesquely blowing themselves up, along with a child hostage, at the altar. In a statement afterwards, al-Qa'ida said: "Christians are a legitimate target."

Tensions between Muslims and Christians are not confined to Iraq: yesterday morning, at least seven people were killed and 24 injured in an explosion at a Coptic Christian church, possibly in retaliation for the rape of a Muslim girl.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 10:12 AM

So, Keith: are you rejoicing and exceeding glad, or not?


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 10:14 AM

The Guardian 24th Dec. 2010

As Christians the world over celebrate the miracle of the Jesus's birth, there are many for whom this season is a time of tension and uncertainty, while others languish in prisons around the world, from Iran to Vietnam, simply because they have chosen to follow their faith.


Around 3,000 Christians are in prison in Eritrea, held without trial in appalling conditions, and suffering threats and beatings simply on account of their faith. In Iraq, where 52 people died in Our Lady of Salvation Catholic church in Baghdad when security forces attempted to free worshippers taken hostage by militants, some Christian communities have decided against Christmas celebrations, for fear of attacks by extremist groups.


In Egypt, Christians gathering in church for Coptic Christmas Eve mass on 7 January will be acutely aware of the drive-by shooting after mass in Nag Hammadi just one year ago that claimed the lives of eight Christians and a Muslim security official, and which was the precursor to further attacks on Christian communities in the surrounding area.


Christians in prison for their faith bear the weight of fear and uncertainty without the comfort of their community around them, and in some cases in solitary confinement, like Iranian Pastor Behrouz Sadegh-Khanjani. Initially arrested in January after being summoned to Shiraz to explain church activities, Pastor Khanjani was released on bail in March but rearrested on 16 June and sent to an infamous political prison, where he has spent much of his detention in solitary confinement. He has only had access to his lawyer once between his arrest and late November, while his health has deteriorated steadily due to the harsh and unsanitary conditions in the prison, where Christian prisoners are reportedly subjected to eight hours of interrogation a day, and some are kept in cramped conditions where they are unable to sleep.

Pastor Khanjani is charged with apostasy – leaving Islam, blasphemy and contact with the enemy, and is facing a possible death sentence. Also facing a death sentence is Pastor Yousef Nadarkhani, who was charged with apostasy on 13 October after questioning the Muslim monopoly on the religious instruction of children in Iran, which contravenes the Iranian constitution, under which a parent is permitted to raise children in their own faith. The written confirmation of the court's sentence – the death penalty – was delivered on 13 November. His appeal is pending.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 10:15 AM

So, Keith: are you rejoicing and exceeding glad, or not?


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: katlaughing
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 10:17 AM

I am loath to condone any killing esp. in the name of religion, but I do believe in karma, not only individual, but also for institutions. The following:


If al-Qa'ida has its way, this ancient culture and people will soon be no more.


is something which has been written and proven about the Christian religion for a long time. If Christians feel persecuted, perhaps they should examine the long history the "church" has of annihilating, persecuting, etc. those who do not agree with their beliefs, including the long-time mistreatment of indigenous peoples in various countries.

Recent events are truly horrible, but there are no easy solutions until the leaders of all religious beliefs give up their dogma in a preference for peace and co-existence and lead their flocks in doing the same.

And, that is all I will say on the subject.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Wesley S
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 10:22 AM

And let's not forget - or forgive - The Spanish Inquisition.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 10:45 AM

When one group of people identify with each other, say as Christians, Muslim, stamp collectors, shanty singers, wearers of baggy y fronts whatever, they become a group.

Funny that they not only get a persecution complex, but also wish to force their way of life on others, ie persecute them.

I am raising an eyebrow to the tosh coming out of The Church of England at present that everybody has it in for them. My wife's brother is coming over next month and he has that serene smile of a nutter about him. As he works in a diocese office churning out their diatribe, I am really really looking forward to a weekend of hearing his ranting. (He refuses to believe I am not a Christian and is praying that I see the light. If I see any light it is because I have put it on a bonfire.)

He and his mates reckon that Christians are being persecuted in The UK because they aren't allowed to tell adopted kids that homosexuality is wrong. They reckon they are being persecuted because a nurse wasn't allowed to pray. That you should be able to invite people into your home under your rules Blah blah blah.

1. Teaching kids bigotry is one of the best ways of showing you are not capable or desirable for raising children, your own or others.

2. The nurse was disciplined for breaching her professional code of conduct with regard to influencing those in a vulnerable situation. Safeguarding is, thankfully, something her employer took seriously.

3. When you open a business, you have an obligation to ensure you cater for all. it is nothing to do with your home, it is a hotel and anybody should be able to use it equally without checking if you are subhuman in the eyes of the owner. The legislation on disability access is founded on the same principle.

Now... if that is persecuting Christians, then perhaps it is about time they realised their odious bigotry has no place in society? Interesting that if they took heed of other parts of their bible, they could get on without upsetting normal people, but no. They, like most other religions feel the need to force their silly rituals and interpretation of morals on others. Go away, and stay there please.

Nothing to do with the sad tragic situation in Pakistan noted above. The country is falling into a deep abyss in which religion is an excuse not a reason. I have many friends from there and my brother is presently based there with an aid organisation and I am deeply saddened by the attempts to enforce a religious interpretation onto peoples' lives. the people there don't deserve it.

Another reason to disestablish superstition here before beardie and his fruitcakes beef up their position in the Lords.....


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 10:47 AM

Couldn't help but notice yet another touch of the anti-Muslim agenda since the previous efforts have now well and truely gone crashing down in flames.
There is no religion with clean hands when it comes to the persecution, torture and killing of non-believers - Christianity least of all.
Any church in the ascendency will take advantage of its influence to marginalise and even crush opposition to that dominance, Islam, Christian, Jewish - you name them, the more powerful they are, the more oppressively they behave.
And of course, some churches don't confine their persecution to their spiritual opponents. Christianity is still rightfully smarting from the exposures of the events of the last century (at least) when Christian clergymen, at their leisure, sexually abused and raped young children in their care and under their influence. I'm still getting over the revulsion brought on over the last two nights by the television drama-documentary covering the events surrounding the rape and sexual abuse of possibly over 100 children: in the Irish Republic, in the part of Ireland which remains an echo of the British Empire, and in America: by that good Christian, Father Brendan Smythe, fully protected an assisted in his endevours by his superiors - may they all burn in their own particular hell!
No one church holds the monopoly of persecution and abuse; given enough power, they are all prone to it, and the 'nya, nya, they're more oppressive than we are' just doesn't wash any more. The further all religions and their fairy stories are kept away from having any real influence over our everyday lives other than as spiritual advisors, the safer we and our children will be, and even then, they need to be carefully monitored.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 10:47 AM

So, they have it coming?
They deserve to be persecuted, for the sins of the long dead?

I doubt such views would be expressed about any other group.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 11:15 AM

A Christian parable (def. a simple story illustrating a religious or moral lesson).
About ten years ago a family of itinerant workers were working their way around farms in (I think Central America, but it's on record).
They sent the youngest child, aged about 11 to get water and she was raped by a farmer, leaving her with two sexually transmitted diseases and a pregnancy.
The doctors of the Catholic hospital where she was treated over the next few months hid her pregnancy from the parents until it was past the legal date when a termination could be carried out, and then refused to carry out the operation which, they said, was contrary to their Christian principles anyway, despite the fact that they admitted that letting the pregnancy run its full course would put the girl's life at severe risk.
The parents appealed to to the highest authority of the church to allow the termination to go ahead; the reply they received was that the girl should "Embrace her martyrdom with joy and gratitude".
Good Christians all maybe, human beings - answers on a postcard!!
This from memory, but I have looked it up for such discussions in the past, and will happily do so again to refresh my opinion of what religion is all about.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 11:23 AM

So you really do think they all deserve to be persecuted!


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 11:44 AM

Jesus did, Keith, so who am I - or you- to argue with him. Rejoice and be exceeding glad, already!


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Goose Gander
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 11:45 AM

What bile and hatred, particularly from Greg F. Please folks, try to remember that the Christians being persecuted and murdered all over the world (overwhelmingly poor, and non-white, I might add) are NOT the same Christians who abused children, went crusading, or burned heretics. Unless you believe in some twisted variety of guilt by association or collective guilt, then there is absolutely NO justification for the foul gloating of Jim Carrol and Katlaughing. You are no better than the bigots who blame Muslims (as a group) for 9-11, etc.   

Richard Bridge, thank for attempting a reasonable response to the specific issue of blasphemy laws in Pakistan. Religious persecution in Pakistan is directed not just toward Christians but also toward other minorities.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 11:46 AM

Who in particular - children in the priest's care, Christians at the hands of other religions, other religions at the hands of Christians?
Nobody should be persecuted and abused, religiously, politically - not even because you support the wrong football team.
The point you appear to be shuffling around is that any religion, given the opportunity, can and possibly will persecute; it appears to come with the territory. It is the poison that kills, not the name on the box.
And as for persecution and its effects being a thing of the past, the effects that Christian abuse had, and is still having on the lives of the victims was underlined starkly in last night's drama-documentary - dim and distant past my arse!
Nobody deserves to be abused, and singling out one or other abuse as being less, more, older, more up-to-date is being, well, selective, to say the least
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 12:11 PM

So, they have it coming?
They deserve to be persecuted, for the sins of the long dead?

I doubt such views would be expressed about any other group.


Huh? According to my Catholic school education, we all have it coming because of the sins of the long-dead, namely the sins of Adam 'n' Eve. They call it original sin, and every man-jack among us is smeared with it - until we get christened into Catholicism, of course!


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 12:16 PM

"What bile and hatred, "
Not really G.G. - it is the influence weilded by those in a position to spiritually blackmail us into doing their will and to accept what they hand out which does the evil, not what any particular spirtual group calls itself.
Religion can, and often is a power for good, it can be, and often is a massive power for evil - and it is evil to suggest, as has been here, that one persecutor is any worse or better than another, or that one spiritual ifluence is any more or less dangerous than another.
It is the power to spiritually manipulate that is the cause of all religious persecution.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 12:22 PM

A post of mine has vanished.

Keith, yours of 0652 Mudcat time may be factually accurate but is not a rebuttal of what I said about the assassination of Shahbaz Bhatti.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 12:28 PM

I didn't want to mix this up with the Bhatti thing.

Dear Fluids, while I largely agree with your thrust about Xtians here in the UK, Nurse Petrie was NOT in breach of her professional code of conduct and did not force her own opinion on anyone about anything. She was, in due course, reinstated: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/4787050/Prayer-nurse-Caroline-Petrie-returns-to-work.html


Xtians abroad seem to have a tougher time of it, but the fundies in the USA and in Africa seem to go out of their way to make sure that they convey a hateful impression of Xtianity.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Silas
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 12:33 PM

"report by Vatican-approved agency Aid to the Church in Need suggested 75% of religious persecution around the world is directed against Christians, affecting 100 million people."

Hmmmm

Does anyone really believe this?


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 12:36 PM

What bile and hatred, particularly from Greg F.

Hey, take it up with Jesus, for chrissake! He said it, not me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 12:38 PM

P.S. there, Goose: Why aren't you rejoicing and exceeding glad?


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Stringsinger
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 12:54 PM

Christian Persecution is overblown. They have done more persecuting than being persecuted. Of course there are Christians and Christians, not all cut from the same cloth.

But it's all theology which is one of the problems we have today. Theology does not define race, or people(s) particularly well. There are Jews and Jews, Islamists and Islamists, Buddhists and Buddhists, plug in your theology here _____and_______.

There are some people in this world who do good things for others regardless or maybe in spite of their religious beliefs.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Silas
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 01:06 PM

"report by Vatican-approved agency Aid to the Church in Need suggested 75% of religious persecution around the world is directed against Christians, affecting 100 million people."

Hmmmm

Does anyone really believe this?



Or, more to the point, does anyone really give a fuck?


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 01:31 PM

An awful lot of persecution is visited on Catholics by the Catholic church. Adhesion to the Church's illiberal doctrines on abortion and contraception have led to millions of unwanted pregnancies and increased dissemination of HIV in poverty-stricken third-world countries. Cast out the beam.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 01:38 PM

Overblown? I beg to disagree! Actually, its total & unequivocal bullshit.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,mauvepink
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 02:03 PM

Sadly, within the history of Christianity, you may find that more Christians have been persecuted by other Christians (wearing slightly different banners, colours and different ideas on the one true faith), than by any other religion. Christians themselves have persecuted other religions too. I am not saying that in some countries many Christians are not persecuted. They are. But the words "kettle", "pot" and "black" do come to mind. What goes around comes around all too often, and not just in religion, which makes for a really sad future for humankind.

Today I attended an early St Patrick's Day celebration. It was purposely organised to be eceumenical. A Priest gave the blessing but was not speaking to any one religion in the room. He was speaking to everyone and praying with everyone. He made mention of how today was a mixture of faiths and what can be achieved when faiths work together. It was a great speech and one that was warming to hear.

I hear that and then come home to read this thread. It is my hope that the Father today was closer to being right about what we can all achieve by embracing each other more than what will happen if we do not bury of past differences. These were great words and it is with great hope I would want to believe them

I suspect Islamophobia will raise its head a lot in this thread potentially. In the end what we are fearing is each other. Our differences, when put aside, can allow that we see we have far more in common with each other than we don't. My vote would go to building on that hope rather than potentially breeding hatred of differences.

Just a few thoughts

mp


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,999--darned memory
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 02:32 PM

As ye sow so shall ye reap.

YES, X-ians are persecuted, as are Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, atheists, Hindis, Taoists, Republicans, Liberals, Democrats, and people who are different than those around them. No one deserves it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 02:38 PM

I was prepared to meet apathy to the plight of these people.
I am shocked at the hostility that has been shown.
I am sure that none of you have any evidence that they have ever done any harm, so your reaction can fairly be described as bigoted (which is highly ironic in the case of one individual here).

They are an oppressed minority in their own lands.
Their oppression has driven them into deep poverty.
Their persecution encompasses imprisonment, torture and murder.

If you really have no compassion for their plight, you are lacking in humanity, (I.M.O.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,999
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 02:41 PM

I am having difficulty understanding what it is you want, Keith. Could you please explain?


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 02:47 PM

Amen, Bruce- Its pretty well ubiquitous,none deserve it, but that doesn't seem to make much difference, does it?

As Sam Clemens styled it: the God damned human race.

And you, Keith, are sadly lacking in the ability to think critically.(I.M.O.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 03:28 PM

I want nothing 999.
This was a news story here today because of the Archbishops statement, and it touched on foreign aid, a recent thread, so I thought it was worth a thread.
I was curious what kind of response there would be.
I never expected this.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,999
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 03:47 PM

OK, thanks Keith.

Here is Keith's link:

A Roman Catholic cardinal has accused the UK government of operating an "anti-Christian foreign policy".
Cardinal Keith O'Brien has attacked plans to increase aid to Pakistan to more than £445m, without any commitment to religious freedom for Christians.
Speaking in Glasgow, Cardinal O'Brien called on Foreign Secretary William Hague to seek human rights guarantees.
The Foreign Office said it raised concerns and lobbied governments about persecution wherever it arose.
The cardinal's call came as a report by Vatican-approved agency Aid to the Church in Need suggested 75% of religious persecution around the world was directed against Christians, affecting 100 million people.
'Aid pressure'
The church highlighted the assassination of Pakistani minority affairs minister Shahbaz Bhatti at the start of March.
Mr Bhatti was the only Christian member of the cabinet in Pakistan.
Cardinal O'Brien said: "I urge William Hague to obtain guarantees from foreign governments before they are given aid.
"To increase aid to the Pakistan government when religious freedom is not upheld and those who speak up for religious freedom are gunned down is tantamount to an anti-Christian foreign policy.
"Pressure should now be put on the government of Pakistan - and the governments of the Arab world as well - to ensure that religious freedom is upheld, the provision of aid must require a commitment to human rights."
He said the report's estimate of persecution against Christians was "intolerable and unacceptable".
"We ask that the religious freedoms we enjoy to practise our faith, will soon be extended to every part of the world and that the tolerance we show to other faiths in our midst will be reciprocated everywhere," he added.
'International solidarity'
Foreign Office Minister Alistair Burt said: "Freedom of religion is a fundamental human right and we condemn and deplore religious persecution in any form.
"The effective promotion of human rights, including freedom of religion, is at the heart of our foreign policy."
He said Britain raised concerns and lobbied governments about religious freedom and persecution wherever it occurred, including in Pakistan.
"It is vital that Pakistan guarantees the rights of all its citizens, regardless of their faith or ethnicity," he added.
"We will continue to press for religious freedoms to be upheld in Pakistan and around the world."
The report also highlighted the Christian population of Iraq, which it says has gone from an estimated 1.4 million to as low as 150,000 over the past 25 years.
Archbishop Bashar Warda of Erbil, in Iraq, said: "The Persecuted and Forgotten report and the work of Aid to Church in Need are critical to us as members of the worldwide Christian community.
"This information will significantly contribute to building international support and solidarity for Christians around the world where our human rights and our religious freedom have been stripped away."



I don't think there's anything wrong with that position. I don't see ANY need to give money to dictators, racists or bigots, regardless who they persecute.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 03:58 PM

Yeah, well, my imaginary friend can beat your imaginary friend with one hand tied behind his/her back.

Time we progressed beyond this mindset of the average twelve year old.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 04:10 PM

"I am having difficulty understanding what it is you want, Keith. Could you please explain?"
Take comfort in the fact that you are not alone; It certainly wasn't what he received on the Muslim prejdice thread.
"I am shocked at the hostility that has been shown."
No you're not Keith - you got your answer on the previous thread when you attempted to single out Pakistanis as perverts.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 04:38 PM

A lot of the posts here look very much like bile and hatred to me. "Serve them right" is the mindset of bigots.

For most of its history Islam has been represented by relative tolerance - as reflected by the survival of sizeable Christian minorities throughout the Middle East, which have been there since long before the time of Mohammed.

Persecution is evil, and is not in fact consistent with Islam any more than it is with Christianity. I don't know any Muslims who do not see it as shameful when this kind of thing is justified in the name of their religion.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 04:44 PM

"What have the Romans ever done for us?"


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Joe Offer
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 04:45 PM

Ah, the pinnacle of Mudcat ugliness, revisited....

Persecution is persecution. Most times, the victims of that persecution are innocent, despite the fact that other members of the persecuted group may have committed acts of persecution. And so the cycle goes on - those in power rationalize violence against the meeker members of another group, as just retaliation for the acts of those in power in the other group.

Rape is being used as a weapon of war in west-central african nations, usually rape by Muslim men against Christian women. Does somebody care to use the Spanish Inquisition or the pope's opposition to abortion as justification for such an atrocity?

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 04:56 PM

Jim, your quote ""Embrace her martyrdom with joy and gratitude"."
does not give one Google hit.
Are you sure you have it right?
You have previously tried to pass off some apocryphal nonsense as fact.
Any evidence for this story?


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Joe Offer
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 05:14 PM

The story Jim refers to is here. It happened in Brazil in 2008-2009. The nine-year-old girl had an abortion, and she and her family were excommunicated. A followup story shows that there were some at the highest levels of the Vatican who disagreed with the actions of the bishop in Brazil.

Last year, a Mercy Sister in Phoenix was excommunicated because she voted to allow an abortion at a Catholic hospital to save the life of the mother. Later, the bishop withdrew the hospital's status as a Catholic hospital.

Progressive Catholics and many moderates generally think both bishops are assholes, trying to win political points by grandstanding against abortion.

Some people use such events as an opportunity to condemn all Catholics, even those who work against asshole bishops.

-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 05:49 PM

Not condemning Catholics, Joe - its a matter of condemming assholes regardless of the specific version of "faith" or whichever imaginary friend they care to worship - -

Assholes is assholes.

Period.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 06:16 PM

Thanks for clearing that up Joe.
I recall an Irish child rape victim. The government tried to prevent her leaving the country to get an abortion.
The EU stepped in but the delay and stress must have seemed like another rape to the family.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 06:40 PM

So Keith - why aren't you rejoicing & exceeding glad?


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Mrrzy
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 06:45 PM

They must only be counting persecution by other religions against Christianity. Right now what the Moslems are doing to each other far outnumbers what they are doing against any Christians, who are only a part of their Western target area anyway. And the Christians in our military are having a fine old time of it getting the ragheads... which wasn't counted either, I bet.
And they probably counted the fighting against our invasion as anti-Christian too, which of course they are trying to make it be but it was originally against the invader, whoever they were.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,999
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 06:52 PM

Religion

Religious Beliefs. There has been religious freedom for centuries in Ethiopia. The Ethiopian Orthodox Church is the oldest sub-Saharan African church, and the first mosque in Africa was built in the Tigre province. Christianity and Islam have coexisted peacefully for hundreds of years, and the Christian kings of Ethiopia gave Muhammad refuge during his persecution in southern Arabia, causing the Prophet to declare Ethiopia exempt from Muslim holy wars. It is not uncommon for Christians and Muslims to visit each other's house of worship to seek health or prosperity.

The dominant religion has been Orthodox Christianity since King 'Ēzānā of Axum adopted Christianity in 333. It was the official religion during the reign of the monarchy and is currently the unofficial religion. Because of the spread of Islam in Africa, Ethiopian Orthodox Christianity was severed from the Christian world. This has led to many unique characteristics of the church, which is considered the most Judaic formal Christian church.

The Ethiopian Orthodox Church lays claim to the original Ark of the Covenant, and replicas (called tabotat ) are housed in a central sanctuary in all churches; it is the tabot that consecrates a church. The Ethiopian Orthodox Church is the only established church that has rejected the doctrine of Pauline Christianity, which states that the Old Testament lost its binding force after the coming of Jesus. The Old Testament focus of the Ethiopian Orthodox Church includes dietary laws similar to the kosher tradition, circumcision after the eighth day of birth, and a Saturday sabbath.

Judaism historically was a major religion, although the vast majority of Ethiopian Jews (called Beta Israel) reside in Israel today. The Beta Israel were politically powerful at certain times. Ethiopian Jews often were persecuted during the last few hundred years; that resulted in massive secret airlifts in 1984 and 1991 by the Israeli military.

Islam has been a significant religion in Ethiopia since the eighth century but has been viewed as the religion of the "outside" by many Christians and scholars. Non-Muslims traditionally have interpreted Ethiopian Islam as hostile. This prejudice is a result of the dominance of Christianity.

Polytheistic religions are found in the lowlands, which also have received Protestant missionaries. These Evangelical churches are fast growing, but Orthodox Christianity and Islam claim the adherence of 85 to 90 percent of the population.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Don Firth
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 07:03 PM

. . . the usual suspects. . . .

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 08:42 PM

How it works when deciding who is persecuted and who is right




more, it you care to follow the metaphors...

http://28.media.tumblr.com/Y8jvP17tWljg9pek5NodYGXFo1_500.gif


http://30.media.tumblr.com/Y8jvP17tWjlmatvjpPYA3Fogo1_500.gif

http://30.media.tumblr.com/Y8jvP17tWjikd6uucXVho9Afo1_500.gif

http://24.media.tumblr.com/Y8jvP17tWjr070vw3i20WRq5o1_500.gif



http://www.boingboing.net/images/ttdb091410.jpg


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 02:19 AM

Greg, you keep asking "So, Keith: are you rejoicing and exceeding glad, or not? "

No Greg I am not, but then I am not being persecuted.
I see people suffering, and am saddened.
I thought that was normal and human, but I am not you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 03:57 AM

"Jim, your quote ""Embrace her martyrdom with joy and gratitude"."
does not give one Google hit. Are you sure you have it right?"
Thanks for that clarification Joe - it was never my intention to attack catholics with this story, just another example of the abuse of power, which I believe can come with all religions. I do notice that you say only some of the Rome hierarchy disproved of the events described.
Interesting that Keith attempted to cast doubt on it though!
I seem to sense a pattern in all of this.
Earlier encounters with Keith include:
His defence of the killing by the Israeli army, of Turkish aid bringers attempting to break the Gaza blockade.
Defence of the use of chemical weapons on Palestinians (by disputing their chemical nature).
The defence of those in command at the time of the Bloody Sunday Massacre in Derry, absolving those officers in charge and overriding the suggestion that those in charge are the ones ultimately responsible for what happens in situations such as these (the buck stops here?).
The defence of violent sectarian marches (or jolly days out, as he passed them off). The three nights of rioting in Belfast which ensued from one of these, he passed of as being the fault of children - on the single word a priest)   
There are more - but for me, the most telling was the Muslim prejudice marathon, where he attempted to prove, even to the extent of doctoring his evidence by removing awkward passages, that British Pakistanis were cultural degenerates. At one spectacular point he appeared to claim that, as the Catholic clergy had their own customs and traditions, they might be described as a distinct ethnic group, therefore to criticise them for clercal child abuse might be described as 'racism' - I think we were all more than a little gobsmacked at that one.
Keith appears, to me at least, to have a taste for holy wars and racial conflicts, being quite happy to take up the cause of one side against the other.
In response to the trouncing he took on the last thread, he has opened this thread, apparently to once again attack a specific religion/race.
Too much of a coincidence for me, I'm afraid.
As far as I'm concerned, all religions are capable of, and have been guilty of religious intolerance and persucution at one time or another and, as is happening in Ireland at present, need to have the power and influence they wield closely examined and, if necessary, brought in check.
To invite us to support one over another is inflammatory sectarian and, on occasion, racist. The suggestion that brand A might be preferable to brand B is a non-starter, to me anyway.
Another couple of 'religious parables' then I'm off to the Inishowen singing week-end, a lovely event held about half an hour's drive away from Derry City, attended by Brits, Irish, Americans, Catholics, Protestants, atheists..... all gathered for the songs and the pleasure of each others company - not to mention the Guinness.
Parable 1
Over the last couple of weeks the US Supreme Court has ruled as legal, the actions of a Christian sect who assembled at the funeral of a soldier killed in Afghnistan and hurled abuse at the mourners and at the coffin of the dead soldier. They claimed that because the soldier had been homosexual and, as "God hates fags", his death was a punishment for being gay.
Parable 2
A state in the US (may be Arkansas, but not sure) is attempting to make the killing of doctors who perform pregnancy terminations 'justifiable homicide' - in practical terms, unpunishable.
Funny old world!!
Jim Carroll
PS Sorry this is so long Keith - bear with it!


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Joe Offer
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 03:57 AM

Well, I can't agree with the cardinal who has accused the UK government of operating an "anti-Christian foreign policy" by supporting the government in Pakistan. That's a bit far-fetched.

Still, Christians ARE persecuted in many lands, as are people of other faiths. There has been a significant change in the treatment of Christian minorities in Arab lands since about 1990. Christian communities that have existed in Arab lands since the first and second centuries, have all but disappeared in many nations. Most significant is the Christian population of Baghdad, now mostly living as refugees in a variety of nations. Christian Palestinians have suffered the same fate, and the story is the same for Christians in most Arab lands.

Mind you, much of this persecution may be in retaliation against aggression by Christians of European ancestry - but most Arab Christians are Arab, not European; and their Christianity is Middle Eastern, not European. They got their Christianity before it arrived in Europe.

Expanding on what I said above, the victims of persecution are usually innocent victims of the battles between the people in power - and the people in power never to seem to suffer much.

If you can see justice in the persecution of innocent members of any group, you need to take another look at your principles.

-Joe-


PS to Greg F and whoever else cares to use the term - the "imaginary friend" shit is offensive, rude, and bigoted. You know it, and you use the term with intent to insult. If you don't understand or don't appreciate what other people hold sacred, common manners require you to shut the fuck up refrain from disparagement.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 04:07 AM

Joe, you have not responded to Jim's tirade against me.
Did you remember that I have refuted as a lie evry one of his accusations.
Can any pressure be put on him to desist?

Jim, your quote really did not get any hits.
It is unlikely to be a quote.
Last time the whole story and the quote turned out to be made up.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Joe Offer
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 04:22 AM

Well, Jim, the bishop in Brazil may not have used the phrase ""Embrace her martyrdom with joy and gratitude" - but the language he used was equally appalling, and he was excoriated for it in the progressive Catholic press in the U.S. It's hard to believe, but the Brazilian bishop does seem to enjoy strong support among some members of the "pro-life" movement, who appear to applaud his callousness.

It was South Dakota that proposed legislation that would declare "homicide is permissible if committed by a person 'while resisting an attempt to harm' an unborn fetus." While it's easy to infer the law would protect those who attack someone performing an abortion, that is apparently not stated in the proposed legislation. The proposal, I understand, has been "tabled indefinitely."

I think most Americans (and most American jurists) regret the Supreme Court decision allowing an anti-homosexual Christian sect to demonstrate at funerals. However, we Americans take our freedom of speech very seriously - we think the funeral demonstrators are appalling, but we can't imagine restricting their right to demonstrate. That's a basic philosophical difference between Americans and Europeans, and I see it all the time here at Mudcat. Europeans think that authority must act to control harmful speech; and Americans are appalled at that idea, even though they may be appalled by the speech that they refuse to control.

Keith, I have to say that in most circumstances, I agree with Jim. His tone may be unnecessarily harsh, but he speaks the truth. You tend to value "correct ideology" over justice and fair treatment of the oppressed. I agree with you on some matters, but I usually find myself agreeing with Jim while still being really pissed off at him. It's not a black-and-white world. Please don't take these things personally. I think the world of you both. You're good people.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Joe Offer
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 04:32 AM

...and I suspect that Jim Carroll would grumpily admit that he has a fair amount of respect for you, Keith.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 04:37 AM

I am not guilty of those accusations.
I refute every one.
They are lies.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Joe Offer
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 04:44 AM

OK, so this is what Jim said, and I guess I have to say that Keith has a valid complaint and that Jim has unfairly distorted Keith's positions in a cheap attempt to ridicule his thinking. Here's what Jim said:
    His defence of the killing by the Israeli army, of Turkish aid bringers attempting to break the Gaza blockade.
    Defence of the use of chemical weapons on Palestinians (by disputing their chemical nature).
    The defence of those in command at the time of the Bloody Sunday Massacre in Derry, absolving those officers in charge and overriding the suggestion that those in charge are the ones ultimately responsible for what happens in situations such as these (the buck stops here?).
    The defence of violent sectarian marches (or jolly days out, as he passed them off). The three nights of rioting in Belfast which ensued from one of these, he passed of as being the fault of children - on the single word a priest)   
    There are more - but for me, the most telling was the Muslim prejudice marathon, where he attempted to prove, even to the extent of doctoring his evidence by removing awkward passages, that British Pakistanis were cultural degenerates. At one spectacular point he appeared to claim that, as the Catholic clergy had their own customs and traditions, they might be described as a distinct ethnic group, therefore to criticise them for clercal child abuse might be described as 'racism' - I think we were all more than a little gobsmacked at that one.
    Keith appears, to me at least, to have a taste for holy wars and racial conflicts, being quite happy to take up the cause of one side against the other.
    In response to the trouncing he took on the last thread, he has opened this thread, apparently to once again attack a specific religion/race.
    Too much of a coincidence for me, I'm afraid.
Keith, do you care to respond, and tell us specifically what your positions are on these issues?

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Will Fly
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 05:07 AM

A few years ago, I went to a talk at the tiny Pavilion Theatre in Brighton - part of the annual Brighton Festival - to hear a discussion with a guest speaker on the subjects of science and religion. The speaker, a lucid, intelligent and charming man, delivered a calm, quiet and rational exposition of his views on religion. Views which, as an atheist since my early teens, I thoroughly agreed with, and agree with today. The violence and persecution committed by all religions against each other, cloaked in the name of "god" and "faith" and "belief" are truly disgusting - and have been in existence since the creation of those religions. It's very clear that no amount of writing, lecturing, preaching, praying or proselytising can stem the flow of "man's inhumanity to man".

That's my belief, never stated on Mudcat before and, having said it once, I shan't say it again.

The festival speaker, by the way, was Richard Dawkins.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 05:24 AM

Defending the killing of Turkish aid bringers is a gross and dishonest simplification of a complex issu.
I deplored the use of smoke on civillians, but correctly denied that smoke is classified as a chemical weapon.
Bloody Sunday, the guilty soldiers were not acting under orders to shoot protesters.
Parades. Sinn Fein did not regard them as sectarian, defended them and agreed with them. I took their stance. The only trouble in the hundreds of marches was before the first march, and the trouble makers were said by local people to be children and bussed in dissidents.
That I doctored awkward passages, straight lie.
that British Pakistanis were cultural degenerates, straight lie.
to once again attack a specific religion/race. straight lie.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 05:55 AM

Well - there you have it - (un)fortunately all these are verifiable by the relevant threads - do check; Keith has a habit of going in circles and ambushing himself from behind.
"a cheap attempt "
Hardly cheap Joe -do y know how much all this typing costs me in nail varnish?
Happy St Pat's day all,
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 06:23 AM

PS Do find it extraordinary that Keith denies having doctored his evidence, despite the fact he did so in the public gaze - sums him up really
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 06:34 AM

Jim's false claim, and me showing it false is here.
thread.cfm?threadid=135090&messages=1357&page=1&desc=yes#3112299


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Silas
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 06:46 AM

"PS to Greg F and whoever else cares to use the term - the "imaginary friend" shit is offensive, rude, and bigoted. You know it, and you use the term with intent to insult. If you don't understand or don't appreciate what other people hold sacred, common manners require you to shut the fuck up refrain from disparagement."

Whilst it is true that the sensibilities of any religious group are easily offended, either deliberately or by accident, the impact that these groups, Christianity in particular, has on the lifestyle and moral choices of us non-religious people is much more than offensive, it is dangerous and causes much suffering. It affects simple everyday things like shopping and entertainment, it dictates things that we are allowed to see and are not allowed to see. It creates poverty whilst being in possession of enormous wealth; it creates suffering and hardship whist promoting love and peace. It stifles research and promotes myth and fable as an absolute truth. It promotes homophobia and sexism and it indoctrinates children with complex guilt problems.
Now, personally, I find it really offensive that my lifestyle is dictated to by a religious cult that I have no interest in and have no wish to join.
So, you may forgive us for not worrying too much about religious sects persecuting each other, let them get on with it as far as I am concerned, and whilst they are beating each other up whilst at the same time preaching love and tolerance, the rest of us can get on with our lives.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 07:01 AM

If a secular or atheistic state persecutes minorities, is that OK as long as they are not faith minorities?
If a reigious state persecutes a minority, is that wrong as long as they are not a faith minority?


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Silas
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 07:04 AM

Sorry, is this addressed to me?


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 07:08 AM

Yes Silas, sorry for not clarifying.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Silas
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 07:14 AM

Persecution of any group, minority or not is clearly wrong. They all do it to each other and have done for centuries. I can't see it stopping any time now, and for any one 'side' to cry foul is a bit rich really.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 07:21 AM

So you think that the persecution is wrong, but they just should not complain about being persecuted, even if the victims have never harmed anyone in their poor, downtrodden lives?


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Silas
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 07:25 AM

Oh no. They can complain as much as they like, but they should not expect anyone to listen or take notice whislt in another part of the world they are doing exactly the same thing to another 'persecuted minority'


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 07:28 AM

Turkish Aid Ships for Gaza.
The Israelis delivered the aid from all the ships to Gaza and harmed no one, except on the one ship where passengers tried to kill them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Silas
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 07:30 AM

"Turkish Aid Ships for Gaza.
The Israelis delivered the aid from all the ships to Gaza and harmed no one, except on the one ship where passengers tried to kill them."

Really??

Are we living on the same planet here or what?


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 07:39 AM

Each ship was taken to an Israeli port, unloaded and searched.
The aid was then taken straight to Gaza, but was not accepted for weeks.

There was only violence on one ship.

I know this is a complex issue, and we debated it for many weeks.
I am accused of supporting murder.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Silas
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 08:02 AM

Anyone who supports the terrorist state of Israel in my opinion supports murder.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 08:14 AM

An opinion to which you are entitled.
You do not state it as an unequivocal fact, or suggest that all my views are worthless because of it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 08:32 AM

Silas, sorry I missed this one.
"Oh no. They can complain as much as they like, but they should not expect anyone to listen or take notice whilst in another part of the world they are doing exactly the same thing to another 'persecuted minority' "

So the oppressed Christians in the slums of Cairo or Beijing, should not complain because Christians might be persecuting someone in ..er, I can not think of anywhere actually, but hypothetically?


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,999
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 08:43 AM

"Anyone who supports the terrorist state of Israel in my opinion supports murder."

I feel the same, Silas, about anyone who supports Palestine.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Silas
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 08:44 AM

No Keith, I clearly said that they could complain as much as they like...


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Silas
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 08:46 AM

Well 999, I would expect nothing less on an American dominated site.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 08:48 AM

This is typical Christian hypocrisy to shout about persecution and ill treatment and then in the next breath make noises about 'gypsies and travellers living just a bit too close' who are generally just as Christian in their beliefs. I don't often hear much compassion there.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Ebbie
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 11:34 AM

"Well 999, I would expect nothing less on an American dominated site." Silas

Since Guest/999 is Canadian, Silas, I don't think the opinion he espouses is nationalistic.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Silas
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 11:39 AM

American, Canadian.....?


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 12:28 PM

Just a quick note to M'unlearned friend regarding his comments a few posts up.

I am glad (though somewhat disorientated) to see you agreeing with the main thrust of my last post. Keep it up, your journey to the dark side will be complete...

You mentioned the case of the nurse I raised. I don't need links to newspaper stories, I work for / interfere in (delete as you feel fit) healthcare regulation. I could get the full file down but "to add to debate in a folk music forum" isn't a good enough excuse. I do know, as was made public by her employer, that after due warnings as per their HR polices, she was referred to the Nurses and Midwifery Council (NMC) and the case was dropped after she agreed that her approach was not consistent with the expectations of her registration. As a result, she was reinstated.

I have been involved in similar issues regarding infection control. (Large crucifix on a chain, bangles on wrists, arm coverings on female Muslim nurses and doctors to name a few.) In almost every case, common sense prevailed, even when draconian written policies had to be rewritten to be workable.

One overriding aspect of healthcare and religion which is to everybody's credit is that in the main, many healthcare professionals put their work before their creed. Hence seeing the naked body of a member of the opposite sex, giving contraception advice, dispensing morning after pills etc are carried out by many people who outside of their work would feel uncomfortable, but accept that not everybody shares their creed, nor would they be expected to. Their professionalism takes precedence, and we should all be grateful for that.

the media stories of issues are the few, not the many.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 01:33 PM



Quite how people killed by a mob or jailed on spurious grounds can manage at the same time to be doing exactly the same thing in some other part of the world is very hard to see. That applies equally where the victims are Muslim, Christian, Jewish or whatever.

Natural thread drift is one thing, but the intentional diversion a thread about religious persecution in which innocent people are suffering, in the way that has been done here, is something else. It is is very easy indeed to start new threads to enable a discussion of separate topics that arises.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Lighter
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 01:46 PM

All questions of who's evilest aside, it really isn't surprising that Christians are make up the largest numbner of people being persecuted for their religious beliefs worldwide.

Because Christians live everywhere. In any society in which the Christian community is small enough to be persecuted at all, they are likely to be the largest of all religious minorities being persecuted.

Add to that the fact that any other religious minorities being persecuted at the same time and in the same place will usually be members of relatively small, relatively regional faiths unless they are Muslims or Jews.

All religious persecution is abhorrent. However, the fact that Christians are suffering most of it, numerically, in the 21st century proves nothing except that some benighted regimes and populations hate Christians.

In the past, monotheistic religions have found it very easy to get revved up about killing others in the name of the one God. But in the modern world, few active monotheists either do this or recommend it. They're too busy worrying about their own lives. If Muslim fanatics are behind most persecution of Christians, that's not because they're Muslims, it's because they're fanatics.

("Fundamentalists" doesn't go far enough. Christian, Jewish, and Muslim fundamentalists are overwhelmingly peaceful. "Fanatics" are another category entirely.)

So let's demand that all religious persecution stop everywhere. Now we can move on to the next problem.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Joe Offer
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 01:50 PM

So, here's Silas and his reason for condemnation of all things religious:
    Whilst it is true that the sensibilities of any religious group are easily offended, either deliberately or by accident, the impact that these groups, Christianity in particular, has on the lifestyle and moral choices of us non-religious people is much more than offensive, it is dangerous and causes much suffering. It affects simple everyday things like shopping and entertainment, it dictates things that we are allowed to see and are not allowed to see. It creates poverty whilst being in possession of enormous wealth; it creates suffering and hardship whist promoting love and peace. It stifles research and promotes myth and fable as an absolute truth. It promotes homophobia and sexism and it indoctrinates children with complex guilt problems.
Yes, Silas, you're right. All those things happen in religious groups, particularly among Christians. And you know what? - these things happen in every group. Those religious people who create poverty and suffering and hardship and homophobia and sexism, are rarely the same religious people who promote love and peace.
Every group has its assholes - when you condemn all members of a group for the actions of that group's asshole minority, that's what most people call bigotry.

Yes, there are many religious people who use their religion as an instrument of hatred and oppression - and that conduct is inexcusable. But that's not the way of most religious people. I look around in church on Sunday morning and a see a vast majority of good, gentle, generous, joyful, tolerant people.

And I see a few assholes, too.

For religious people, belief in God is part of their essence, part of who they are. It is sacred to them. When you dismiss their belief with an "imaginary friend" quip, you slap them in the face. And you know damn well you're insulting them when you use a phrase like that.

I think that an essential part of showing respect for other people, is showing respect for what others hold as sacred. You don't have to espouse what others believe to respect their sense of what's sacred - but if you attack their beliefs (or what you think they believe), you attack them.

Every group has members who cannot tolerate the beliefs and actions of others. I'd call those people fundamentalists (Lighter calls them "fanatics," which might be better). Even among those who profess no religious belief, there are those who cannot tolerate the beliefs and actions of others. Is there really much difference between intolerant believers, and intolerant unbelievers?

If you're a tolerant person, you'll quit the "imaginary friend" shit. It's offensive.

-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,999
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 02:39 PM

Joe and I have been on the opposite sides of more arguments than any other person I ever met (almost, but I hid the body real well).
On this issue I support him 100%.

I fail to see why religions and religious people are fair game and the season's open year 'round. The large majority--99%--are just people. The 1% who do bad stuff should be punished without question. But that's about breaking the law; it's not about being religious. imo


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 03:27 PM

If you're a tolerant person, you'll quit the "imaginary friend" shit. It's offensive.

OK, Joe, if you & others will quit the religious shit, which I and plenty of others find equally, if not more, offensive.

Deal?


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 03:38 PM

How about we tolerate your disbelief, and you tolerate our belief, with neither of us making offensive comments about the other's belief/disbelief?


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 03:39 PM

"If you're a tolerant person..."

If...


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 03:44 PM

Zero tolerence is the mantra around here.

christian or any kind of persecution is not a problem for people here unless it raises their taxes or effects their commute.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 04:00 PM

I think that most of our major religions deserve all the attacks they receive. On the whole, they are scurrilous, authoritarian and controlling organisations which often preach intolerance. On the other hand, people who have made a quiet choice to follow a particular creed should be regarded as beyond criticism. Neither side need hector individuals about their personal standpoints. But we do live in a world in which religion seems to be the default position, something I vehemently object to as an atheist. I have to look at religious iconography wherever I go (I'll get over it) and my children were forced to endure acts of worship at school. My atheist tax money goes to help religious organisations and my BBC licence money is wasted on Songs Of Praise - and the archbishop gets air-time on the telly and an influential seat in the Lords simply because he happens to hold the post of Head Of Myth. Big religion simply doesn't know how to keep its big mouth shut. So, as soon as believers put their heads above the parapet in terms of attempting to spread their beliefs to others, or of criticising those whose beliefs are not theirs, they are fair game for argument. There is often steel behind the deceptively gentle proselytising and there is expression of unwarranted certainty which is very worrying. Religious certainty may give comfort to many people but it also spawns suicide bombing, let's not forget. And, worst of all, it's a pack of lies. We get religious intolerance and religious persecution because we have religion. It goes, unavoidably, with the territory.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 04:12 PM

expression of unwarranted certainty which is very worrying.

On both sides?


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 04:18 PM

No. You won't find real atheists expressing certainties. We leave that to believers. Real atheists speak in terms of vanishingly-small probabilities, and we use evidence and reason to back up what we think. Pursue that line if you like, but it was not the intention of my post to start that all over again.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 04:26 PM

"You won't find real atheists expressing certainties."

There seem to be a fair number of unreal atheists in that case.

As for "I have to look at religious iconography wherever I go" I'd be inclined to say that all of us are exposed to a far greater amount of materialist and implicitly anti-religious (and for that matter anti-humanist) imagery everywhere we look. Papers, TV. advertising...


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 04:40 PM

It would be a shame if this became yet another for/against religion thread.
I gave some of the reasons why I started this one.

Another was to have a comparison with the "Muslim prejudice" thread.

My prediction was that people would be less concerned for Christians.
I did not expect significant numbers to post IN FAVOUR of Christian persecution!

The other thread did not produce that to the same extent, though some sought to explain why prejudice might be engendered in otherwise tolerant people.

It poses the question, why overt hostility to all Christians expressed by significant numbers here, and not one contributor expressing hostility to all muslims on the other?


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: akenaton
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 05:37 PM

The reason keith is that Christians are perceived by the "liberals" who inhabit a large part of this forum, as conservatives.

Christianity and the Christian churches are seen as the only organised opposition and a danger to the the "liberal" ideology, which is turning the people of this country into an ineffectual irresponsible waste of space.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 06:27 PM

Christianity and the Christian churches are seen as the only organised opposition and a danger to the the "liberal" ideology...

??-

What planet do you spend most of your time on, Pharoah?


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 06:49 PM

Help us out then Greg.
On the Muslim Prejudice thread, you were quite defensive towards Muslims, and very critical of Christians.
You never abused Muslims for having an imaginary friend.
On the Christian Persecution thread, you expressed nothing but contempt for Christians without mentioning Muslims at all.

Why the difference Greg?


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Lighter
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 07:13 PM

I see things that disgust, offend, and anger me every day of my life, from addiction to crime to idiot politicians to cancer and tsunamis. Is anyone in favor of these things? I hope not.

Unless you're a transcendent mystic, feeling disgusted, offended, and ticked off by one thing and another is part of the price you pay for being alive. I recommend turning such feelings to less contentious purposes.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 08:24 PM

"You won't find real atheists expressing certainties."

There seem to be a fair number of unreal atheists in that case.


I couldn't agree more. To be fair, a lot of people who, rightly, utterly reject God do so with the same certainty as the religion that riled them in the first place preached God to them. I don't for one minute deny that certainty-atheists are really atheists, but they have yet to articulate their atheistic arguments fully. A bit of thought tells you that you can never prove God doesn't exist. The odds against his existence are absolutely huge, of course, but there will never be definitive proof.   

As for "I have to look at religious iconography wherever I go" I'd be inclined to say that all of us are exposed to a far greater amount of materialist and implicitly anti-religious (and for that matter anti-humanist) imagery everywhere we look. Papers, TV. advertising...

True again, but you are not comparing like with like. Religion is a completely human construct, and there's nothing more most of its adherents like than to impose it on the rest of us willy-nilly. There's even a current thread here "asking for prayers." If I'm on this very secular board and I have to read that rubbish I could well feel quite insulted as an atheist, but I'd far sooner ridicule it for what it is, or just ignore it. It's very rude, isn't it, but it happens all the time, and we accommodating pagans just fart in its general direction. The stuff you refer to is entirely reactive. But for religion it would not exist. To criticise it is to suggest that religion should get a free ride. Heaven forfend. I could suggest to you that the whole of nature, in its glorious ordinariness, is the ultimate anti-religious testament, and it certainly far outweighs all that stuff you're moaning about, if only all those blinded believers could see it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 08:27 PM

The reason keith is that Christians are perceived by the "liberals" who inhabit a large part of this forum, as conservatives.

Christianity and the Christian churches are seen as the only organised opposition and a danger to the the "liberal" ideology, which is turning the people of this country into an ineffectual irresponsible waste of space.


Congratulations for winning the "mindless rant of the week" award.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Ebbie
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 11:10 PM

It is interesting to me, Steve Shaw, that, dismissive as you are in your argument, in *print* you are respectful to God and Christianity- you capitalize the words. I would have expected you to say "a god" rather than "God".


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 02:09 AM

Steve, on this thread you say "I think that most of our major religions deserve all the attacks they receive."

On the other thread, you suggested in your early posts that all criticism of muslims was racist, and you defended Islam from all criticism.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: akenaton
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 03:57 AM

Steve and Greg.....If my opinions seem so outlandish to you, why don't you have a stab at answering Keiths main point?

In reality, the Muslims are even more "conservative" than the Christians, by are not YET a danger to Western "liberalism"

Try to get your heads out of the sand....one doesn't have to live on another planet to see and understand what's happening on this one. :o)


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 04:39 AM

From Fluids: "I could get the full file down but "to add to debate in a folk music forum" isn't a good enough excuse. I do know, as was made public by her employer, that after due warnings as per their HR polices, she was referred to the Nurses and Midwifery Council (NMC) and the case was dropped after she agreed that her approach was not consistent with the expectations of her registration. As a result, she was reinstated."

What an extraordinary concept, even by your standards, Fluids.   Can you cite the prohibition the nurse was alleged to have breached?    There was a long thread here that set out the alleged offence and the excuses for the management. The NMC had the power (being judge, jury, and executioner in its own cause) permanently to exclude Nurse Petrie from her job, and she was thereby blackmailed into a "soft option".   I have some parallel experience in that I successfully saw off a trumped up allegation against me to the SRA by a judge who was displaying racial prejudice against a barrister instructed by me, and who tried just the same sledgehammer approach to head off my reporting him on the grounds of his prejudicial conduct. If what you say about your regulatory activities is true, it seems that you are on the side of the oppressors. Now why doesn't that surprise me?


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 04:50 AM

http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=118245


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 06:06 AM

Steve to a certain extent I agree that Songs of Praise is a waste of money spent on a licence fee but speaking from my elderly parents perspective they are not able to get to the nearest church now so they are happy for it to come to them. Personally I would rather it not be on, the theme tune alone grates on my nerves.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 06:22 AM

From BBC
Songs of Praise was an overnight success and on some Sundays as many as 12 million viewers viewed the programme. The average audience today, is still a remarkable 2.5 million, a great achievement in our multi-channel world.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 06:51 AM

The stuff you refer to is entirely reactive. But for religion it would not exist.

Newspapers, advertising hoardings, TV adverts all implicitly promoting a materialist vision of what our lives are all about?


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 08:15 AM

It is interesting to me, Steve Shaw, that, dismissive as you are in your argument, in *print* you are respectful to God and Christianity- you capitalize the words. I would have expected you to say "a god" rather than "God".

I'm probably inconsistent and careless in this regard. Hey ho. I'm respectful to respectful Christians, as it happens, but that's setting the bar quite high you understand.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 08:17 AM

Steve, on this thread you say "I think that most of our major religions deserve all the attacks they receive."

On the other thread, you suggested in your early posts that all criticism of muslims was racist, and you defended Islam from all criticism.


What utter tripe. Show me!


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 08:22 AM

As for Songs Of Praise, etc., I'll never be joining a campaign to have it banned or anything like that. There are lots of things I don't subscribe to that suck away my tax money (like charitable status for private schools - don't get me started). In the order of things it's just a silly programme that probably never killed anyone, and I'm sure that tossers like Jonathan Ross suck away far more of my dough.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 08:28 AM

>The stuff you refer to is entirely reactive. But for religion it would not exist.

Newspapers, advertising hoardings, TV adverts all implicitly promoting a materialist vision of what our lives are all about?


Materialist does not equate to anti-religious, unless you're a religious neurotic. You've fallen into the trap of accepting that religion is the default position, the reference point against which everything must be judged. Well I'm an atheist and I don't accept it. Truly anti-religious stuff relies on religion for its very existence. The girl on page 3 with the huge norks does not have a caption underneath saying "Choose either me or God."


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 08:38 AM

A while back, Songs Of Praise came from Morwenstow church, near here. I've been inside that lovely old church countless times. The churchyard is a delight in spring, filled with primroses and celandines, and you can stroll out to the cliffs and Hawker's Hut afterwards. I sang lustily along, though I usually only know the first verse, if that. You can always practise your harmonising by humming. I watched all that sanctimonious guff in the Island Parish series, too, when it came from the Isles of Scilly, which I love to bits. I could always look over the vicar's shoulders at the scenery to work out where I'd been.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 08:42 AM

Or just stick "Islamic" in front of any negative word or phrase (or one you've worked on to make negative). Islamic suicide bomber. The Islamic group Hamas/Hezbollah. Easy innit. "Islamic" is not automatically a race-word, so you can get away with this.

So, Brian, let's hear you judging the whole of white Britain on the strength of what Fred West did. Perhaps you'd care now to make the case, with full evidence of course, that Ashraf Azad was typical of male Muslims and is supported in his actions by the Muslim community.

I repeat. Show me that these young men did what they did in the name of Islam and I'll let you off saying your intolerant things like "Pakistani Muslim men towards young British girls..."

If you're not anti-Islam tell me why you single out Muslims for this responsibility to speak out.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 08:48 AM

Steve and Greg.....If my opinions seem so outlandish to you, why don't you have a stab at answering Keiths main point?

Achy, old chap, do you never learn? Just look at what happened on the Muslim Prejudice thread when anybody tried to answer "Keith's main point." Keith doesn't have one "main point". He has a large number of "main points", and if you try to address any one of them he simply shifts to another "main point."


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 08:53 AM

Keith, you should make it clear when you're quoting someone. Those bleeding chunks are me on that other thread, to remove confusion, and they have absolutely nothing to do with Keith's ridiculous accusation that I think all Muslims should be exempt from criticism. Try harder, Keith, and also try explaining the context of quoted remarks as well.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 09:20 AM

Sorry Steve, but it did follow your request.
Your posts do suggest that criticism of Islam tends to be racially motivated, if you will forgive the weasels.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 09:32 AM

My posts suggest that racially-motivated criticism of Muslims is racially-motivated. You were attacking people because they just happened to be of Muslim origin ("BPs" to use your ugly representation of them, as if you're scared to type the word "Pakistani") committing a particular crime and who were definitely not acting in the name of Islam. That's racially-motivated criticism. I've been posting a lot on another forum this week on which I criticise Hamas and Hezbollah for certain actions that they pretend to do in the name of Islam, and for their silly and counterproductive rhetoric at times. I could just praise them and ignore their faults as I see them, couldn't I. Anyway, to cut to the chase, you simply cannot demonstrate that of which you accuse me, because I simply didn't say it (and I don't think it). Try harder.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 10:06 AM

Meanwhile, to get back to the subject of the thread, from Pakistan Christian Post dated today: PCC condemn killing of Christian blasphemy victim in Karachi jail.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 11:11 AM

Why the difference Greg?

No, Keith, I expressed contempt for supposed "Christians"[sic] who as a matter of course expressed contempt for Muslims.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,999
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 11:17 AM

Have any of you ever been trapped in a revolving door?


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 11:35 AM

Many's the time, Bruce- suppose I should know better.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: olddude
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 11:45 AM

No, Keith, I expressed contempt for supposed "Christians"[sic] who as a matter of course expressed contempt for Muslims.

They are not Christians Greg ... that's the difference. No more than the Taliban are Muslims


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 11:54 AM

That's right, and it pays to remember that when we routinely, as we do, smear Islam every time alleged "Muslims"/people who look like they may be Muslims/people who are Muslims but not acting like Muslims get up to something we disapprove of.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 12:32 PM

They are not Christians Greg ... that's the difference.

You Bet! and this Keith dude is among their number, whining about so-called "Christians" being "Persecuted".

Enough, already!


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 12:34 PM

Steve, the first of those posts predated the paedophile gang rapists discussion, which you also considered to be racist.

Greg,
On the Muslim Prejudice thread, you were quite defensive towards Muslims, and very critical of any and all Christians.
You never abused Muslims for having an imaginary friend.

On the Christian Persecution thread, you expressed nothing but contempt for any and all Christians without mentioning Muslims at all.
Why do you treat them so differently?


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 12:39 PM

Why do YOU, Keith?


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: olddude
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 12:53 PM

People who persecute other people have no faith, they follow leaders. They can arise in any denomination, in any political movement, and yes can be atheists also. They come from all walks of life. I know of no person of faith that persecutes anyone, a faith based life is one of compassion and helping others ... anything less is simply not correct.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 01:01 PM

Steve, the first of those posts predated the paedophile gang rapists discussion, which you also considered to be racist

You're now saying that I regarded a whole discussion as racist? Huh?


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 01:35 PM

The thing is, we sometimes get corrupt governments and corrupt legal systems who cosy up to the racism and bigotry you can find in most places - as with the old South in America, or the (let's hope)defunct dictatorship in Egypt, and the current regime in Pakistan.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 03:09 PM

Steve, I said that on the other thread you suggested in your early posts that all criticism of muslims was racist, and you defended Islam from all criticism.

Greg, I hope and believe I do treat them the same.
Unlike you, I treat neither with contempt, and I consider neither above criticism.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 03:28 PM

Greg, I hope and believe I do treat them the same.

Right. See Jeremiah 5:21, Isaiah 6:9-10, Matthew 13:13


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 06:01 PM

I am afraid that sneering remark about "whining about so-called "Christians" being "Persecuted" does rather tend to colour anything that Greg F says in this context.

There is no question but that there is a situation in Pakistan in which members of a minority community can find themselves routinely subjected to murder, prosecution and imprisonment. The fact that the victims are Asian Christians rather than Black Americans or European Jews does not make that remark any less repellent.

I hope that on consideration Greg will recognise that and withdraw it. I don't think he is really the kind of person that it implies he is.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 06:10 PM

Kevin, members of all manner of minority communities all over the face of the earth- including Gays, Lesbians, agnostics, athiests, women &of late sentient beings capable of rational thought &c &c &c find themselves on the short end of the stick.

This is news?


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Donuel
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 06:24 PM

is there any room for remarks regarding jewish persecution here?

the st. valentine massacre of jews in germany in retribution for be blamed for the black death (plague) is a particularly horrifying and fascinating tale. a tale i call 'when flagellents go wild'


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 06:31 PM

So it's "whining" to mention such things, and inverted commas should be placed on any description of that kind of thing as "persecution"?

Maybe the victims in such cases were"asking for it"?

I don't actually believe Greg thinks that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 07:12 PM

AFAIK many different minorities in Pakistan are routinely persecuted.

The minorities minister was however murdered not because of his religion but because of his political activity.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 08:20 PM

"The minorities minister was however murdered not because of his religion but because of his political activity."

That's not a million miles from saying that Martin Luther King was shot for his political activity and not because he was black. In one way that would be true, but at the same time it would distort the truth about the circumstances. The two went together.

Here is the very impressive video clip of Shahbaz Bhatti speaking about the likelihood of his own assassination.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: akenaton
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 08:44 PM

Well said Mr McGrath.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 18 Mar 11 - 07:33 AM

Methinks M'Unlearned friend should quit whilst he's behind....

Political activity and religion may be different things in a dictionary but in Pakistan, the line is more than blurred.

Oh, and yeah... I am on the side of the oppressor. Every time mate, every time. if she worked for me, I would have been uncomfortable reinstating her. (Sorry everybody, a parallel thread is in danger of occurring here.) Like The NMC, I put safeguarding rather high on my agenda. A pity you weren't acting for her really, we could have a safer service if she had been struck off.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 18 Mar 11 - 12:05 PM

Fluids - check your facts. I know it's not your speciality, but for once do us a favour. You've already gone from purporting to know about that case to admitting your prejudice.

Martin Luther King was assassinated because it was to his assassins unacceptable for a black man to be a political activist.

Bhatti was assassinated purely for his political stances. If he had once been Muslim apostasy would have been added to the list of his alleged crimes.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Mar 11 - 12:22 PM

...it was to his assassins unacceptable for a black man to be a political activist.

I rather suspect that if his politics had been pro-segregation and pro-war the fact that he was black might have been seen in a different light.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 18 Mar 11 - 12:52 PM

Yep, Kevin , but he probably still would have been shot for being "uppity". You need to experience Dixie at first hand.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 22 Sep 11 - 03:29 PM

A Christian GP who asked a troubled patient if he had considered faith in Jesus appeared before medical watchdogs today.

Dr Richard Scott spoke about the matter of religion to the 24-year-old, who has been described as 'suicidal' and 'vulnerable', at the end of a consultation at his surgery, the General Medical Council (GMC) heard.


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2040567/Christian-Dr-Richard-Scott-fights-job-asking-suicidal-patient-faith.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Van
Date: 22 Sep 11 - 03:46 PM

It is known in the town that this is a Christian medical centre and locals can choose to go to one of the other practices. It is after all called the Bethesda medical centre, bit of a clue. Other reports say that it was the mother, not the patient, who complained. I,m not a practicing Christian and have no axe to grind but I feel that it is unfair that the GP involved has all this publicity about his conduct but the complainant remains anonymous.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 Sep 11 - 03:53 PM

One more vulnerable individual being persecuted by a "Christian"[sic]

No news here.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Stringsinger
Date: 22 Sep 11 - 07:18 PM

I can't trust the Vatican as a credible objective source on persecution. After all, historically, they have been "masters of the craft". Auto-de-fes anyone?

Christians make up the majority of religious affiliation in the U.S. and they are actively pursuing their agendas when they are not persecuting others for their ideas or beliefs.

"Christian persecution" is Dominionist and Reconstructivist twaddle. However, in the U.S. today, Muslims are actively being persecuted by the police and some Christians.

Religious persecution, historically, almost defines the history of religion throughout the world. It seems you can't have one without the other.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Sep 11 - 07:32 PM

Christians make up the majority of religious affiliation in the U.S.

And the United States is a pretty small corner of the world. Religious persecution isn't something to sneer at, wherever it's happening or whoever is being persecuted. And it's probably on the increase.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Joe Offer
Date: 22 Sep 11 - 07:53 PM

Stringsinger, the Vatican hasn't sentenced anyone to any serious penalty for, like, a hundred fifty years - and it wasn't even the Vatican at the time, since the center of power at the time was the Lateran Palace. That was a different time, and people thought differently then. I can't defend their actions - but it was a long, long, time ago.
Whatever the case, your argument is about 150 years out of date. Time to find a new one, wouldn't you think?
I can't defend the more recent actions of the five to ten percent of priests who molested children in recent years, either. Nonetheless, the actions of long ago and those by a recent minority do not invalidate the right of other Catholics to speak against injustice.

-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Joe Offer
Date: 22 Sep 11 - 11:55 PM

But despite the fact that I dispute Stringsinger's logic, I find myself almost in complete agreement with him. I'm guessing that Aid to the Church in Need must be a rather insignificant Catholic organization. To say it is "Vatican-approved" is a bit of a stretch. Although the Catholic Church allows it to exist and bear the title Catholic, there's no indication that it is an agency of the Catholic Church itself. It has a right-of-center perspective and a "poor, pitiful me" attitude that I find detrimental.

Yes, it's true that in many places, Christians do suffer because of their religion. Ancient Christian communities are disappearing from Muslim countries, and that's a shame. However, maybe it's more true to say that almost everywhere in the world, minorities suffer terribly at the hands of the majority. That puts a more accurate "spin" on the matter.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 23 Sep 11 - 12:41 AM

Stringsinger: "Christians make up the majority of religious affiliation in the U.S. and they are actively pursuing their agendas when they are not persecuting others for their ideas or beliefs."


Matthew 7:21.."Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father who is in heaven. (22)"Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'(23)"And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'(24)"Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock.(25)"And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock.(26)"Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand.(27)"The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell-- and great was its fall.(28)When Jesus had finished these words, the crowds were amazed at His teaching."

(Stringsinger): "Christians make up the majority of religious affiliation in the U.S. and they are actively pursuing their agendas when they are not persecuting others for their ideas or beliefs."

??????????

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Joe Offer
Date: 23 Sep 11 - 02:15 AM

Stringsinger says: they are actively pursuing their agendas....

Yeah, I suppose that's true. I'm affiliated with one faith-based program whose agenda is to provide "hospitality with dignity and love" to women in an impoverished area. Another one I work with has a different agenda: to encourage the county jail to treat prisoners with compassion and fairness. I'm involved in other faith-based organizations that protest capital punishment and promote the cause of peace.

I don't apologize for any of these agendas. They put to action what I believe. And please note that none of these faith-based programs makes any attempt to preach religion.

-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Musket
Date: 23 Sep 11 - 03:39 AM

Just want to point out that it is NOT a Christian medical centre. There is no such thing.

The Primary Care contract clearly states it is contracted to operate within the terms of the PCT equality scheme and equality legislation. The PCT (local health authority) commissions care that is equal, accessible to all and patients should not have to put up with this, any more than a pharmacist should be able to refuse to supply morning after pills when he / she is the duty pharmacist and there is nobody else to sign and dispense. If you come across religious overtones in your NHS care, somebody is not doing what is expected of them.

In addition, patients are seen by GPs, and GPs have clear obligations as to influencing vulnerable people, and even clearer obligations under the Hippocratic oath with regard to using their medical expertise without fear or favour.

Hence this GP is answering to his professional registration body (GMC) for the allegations.

Once very good reason I get rather agitated about this is that in a hospital, people of faith, and I am talking especially about Islam here.. leave their faith at the door. Hence a Muslim nurse will give personal care to a man. A muslim doctor will carry out an intimate examination or procedure on a person of the opposite sex etc. If we allow faith to enter healthcare in any way other than chaplaincy for those who would be comforted by it, it would open a huge can of worms, and not just wearing crosses and asking people if they have let Jesus in their lives.

It is not about persecuting Christians. It is not about stifling peoples' right to express their faith or any other related tosh. On that basis, if your boss asks you where the report is and you say Jesus told you to flush it down the toilet.....

I have always supported the concept of freedom of religious expression. I have also supported the notion that it is not used to influence the lives of those who don't want to play. I have noticed a push recently by leaders in the Christian world, especially here in The UK to play the "persecution" card in order to have more influence in society.

Stop it. It is doing your cause no good. All it does is entrench the position of those of us who only wish to be governed by those we vote for. You carry on singing in church on a Sunday and I will carry on singing on the Kop at Hillsborough on a Saturday. We all have faith, we all need to express it. I express mine at the temple of soccer. (I bet my faith is tested more often than yours...)


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Sep 11 - 04:18 AM

Not as much as mine is being this season, Ian: I'm an Arsenal supporter!

~Michael~

Drift? Don't think so: they call soccer 'the religion' in Liverpool, don't they? Liverpool! Everton! Tranmere Rovers - er???


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Musket
Date: 23 Sep 11 - 04:56 AM

Well Michael, if faith binds people together, then Liverpool needs football, 'cos Christianity seems to be a divider there.........

Arsenal? Sorry, I will waffle away on posts without realising the upset I can cause (!)


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Sep 11 - 12:06 PM

LoL ~~~


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 23 Sep 11 - 01:35 PM

I'm a Christian, go to church and am on the PCC etc. But I'd be extemely uncomfortable if any healthworker started talking to me about their faith in this way. It's inappropriate. We had a bus driver some years ago who accosted his passengers about finding Jesus etc. as they boarded the bus. Again, it was uncalled-for and unacceptable, it just got people's backs up.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Sep 11 - 03:48 PM

It's not at all clear what "in this way" amounted to. In something called "the Bethesda Medical Centre" it seems strange if mention of Christianity is seen as unacceptable.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 23 Sep 11 - 04:08 PM

""I deplored the use of smoke on civillians, but correctly denied that smoke is classified as a chemical weapon.""

How easily you distort the truth Keith, and without a sign of conscience.

Why do you not have the nerve to come straight out with the fact that you are talking about WHITE PHOSPHORUS, which burns spontaneously when exposed to air, and is not extinguishable by water, but burns until physically removed or exhausted.

It can burn right through a human torso, flesh and bone.

That's a little different than your weasel word "SMOKE", wouldn't you say?

Back on topic, while I deplore any persecution of any minority, by any majority, for any or for no reason, I have two points to make.

1. Aid to the Church in Need can pull percentages out of a hat until they are blue in the face, but that doesn't constitute one credible FACT until they supply chapter and verse to prove the source and veracity of their figures.

2. Does anybody think that persecution of minorities will magically cease if we withdraw AID, or, as is much more likely, will we simply ensure that those minorities will be the first to starve?

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 23 Sep 11 - 04:15 PM

""It's not at all clear what "in this way" amounted to. In something called "the Bethesda Medical Centre" it seems strange if mention of Christianity is seen as unacceptable. ""

If I am ill and go to my GP, I expect to be given the best that a fully qualified professional medical practitioner can supply.

If I am seeking divine guidance or intervention the logical Drop in Centre would be the local Church, Mosque, or Temple.

What is totally inappropriate, is for that medical practitioner to seek to delegate his responsibilities to a gifted, but possibly mythical, amateur.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Stringsinger
Date: 23 Sep 11 - 04:24 PM

The faith-based initiatives by definition are preaching religion as a subtext for what they do.

Joe, one argument that is indisputable is that the Catholic Church owns opulent edifices that are located in squalid and poverty-stricken environments around the world.

The Pope is on conspicuous display reminding everyone of the hierarchical nature of the Church and for him to claim "Christian persecution" is the height of hypocrisy which he surely can't personalize.

Gfs: quoting the bible makes no sense whatsoever as a rational conversation. Cherry picking the scriptures makes about as much sense as taking a rational statement as representative as a quote from Mein Kampf.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 23 Sep 11 - 04:32 PM

Stringsinger: "Gfs: quoting the bible makes no sense whatsoever as a rational conversation. Cherry picking the scriptures makes about as much sense as taking a rational statement as representative as a quote from Mein Kampf."

John 13:35 ""By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another."

Not exactly 'Mein Kampf', now is it???????

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Sep 11 - 04:35 PM

Persecution is persecution, whoever is being persecuted and whoever is doing the persecution.

"Don't ask me to care about Jenny being beaten up by her boyfriend. I know her father, and I think he's a right bastard"


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Sep 11 - 05:04 PM

~~~In something called "the Bethesda Medical Centre" it seems strange if mention of Christianity is seen as unacceptable.~~~

Oh, really? How so? Bethesda is an Aramaic name, derived from
בית-חסדא
Hebrew for House of Grace. Can't see why the fact that it happens to have been mentioned in one of the Gospels should have anything to do with it.

Do only Christians live in Bethesda, Maryland? Not last time I was there, they didn't.

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Wesley S
Date: 23 Sep 11 - 05:18 PM

I'll start worring about Christian Persecution when I see the hungry lions headed my way and there's no way out of the arena.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Sep 11 - 06:18 PM

I note that the Bethesda Medical Centre (which is in Kent) actually states on its website that "spiritual matters are likely to be discussed with patients during consultations".

It's a bit analogous to someone who goes to a vegetarian restaurant and complains that the menu is all vegetarian dishes.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 23 Sep 11 - 06:29 PM

My local practice has a website too, but my guess would be that most patients have never looked at it. I joined the list before there were any websites to look at, and I don't give a tuppenny damn about the doctors' religious views, but I go there for medical treatment, and that's what I expect to get.

I'll take care of my soul, spirit, or whatever.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Joe Offer
Date: 23 Sep 11 - 06:57 PM

Stringsinger says: Joe, one argument that is indisputable is that the Catholic Church owns opulent edifices that are located in squalid and poverty-stricken environments around the world.

Nope, Frank, I can't deny that. Try tearing down those buildings, though, and take the time to listen to the outcries from the poverty-stricken people who built those buildings for themselves and their communities. The people built those buildings, and it's the people who take pride in them. For the most part, they weren't built under orders from Rome.

If the buildings were sold, who would buy them? If they were torn down, would there be any proceeds from the demolition?

Once again, your arguments don't seem particularly valid.

-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Penny S.
Date: 24 Sep 11 - 06:20 AM

This is the first time I have come across the idea that an NHS provided service would also be religious. I do hope that there are other practices in the area (I had no choice where I last lived, or at my current address), especially given that there are a variety of faiths practiced by the public - I know that Thanet (the part of Kent) has, for example, a Jewish community. I, though a Christian, would not be happy if the only option was an openly Christian practice, because it would raise issues I might disagree with.

I don't know how it could have happened that there could be a sectarian practice, when it started, under what rules, and I think it should be monitored, and future practices of this sort prevented. This is not what the NHS should be about, and makes me concerned about the recent proposals in Parliament.

Penny


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Sep 11 - 06:25 AM

None of us know the actual facts about this particular case, so there's not much point in going on as if we did.

"If so and so is true that would be right and if so and if so and so is true that would be wrong..."


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Penny S.
Date: 24 Sep 11 - 06:26 AM

REsearch shows a lot of practices close by, but all are in one consortium, headed by a doctor at Bethesda. I couldn't get to their website.

Penny


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 24 Sep 11 - 08:07 AM

It isn't a Christian practice. It is a practice that has an NHS contract hence the GP is up in front of the GMC for his actions.

The system does sometimes work. If I still chaired a PCT (health authority) I would be asking out chief executive to formally give warning of breach of contract if the allegations were substantiated.

There is a place for Christians and that place certainly isn't setting the agenda for primary care. All healthcare, under the terms of The Health and Social Care Act 2008 is without regard to gender race or creed. And that includes private healthcare where the type of care is registerable. (GPs come under registration in 2013 but their work under their NHS contract has to be in line with their contract, which mirrors the regulations anyway.)

That said, many GP practices think they are above any laws or rules anyway and if is only the steady introduction of younger less arrogant GPs that gives me hope for an eventual joined up NHS care anyway.

Luckily, actual care isn't too bad because at the end of the day, their role is purely signing club notes and referring you to real doctors.

Good lark this anonymity.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Sep 11 - 10:10 AM

Once again, none of us have any information of the alleged conversation.

What's the point of arguing about specific incidents about which we know essentially nothing relevant?


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Stringsinger
Date: 24 Sep 11 - 12:34 PM

Joe, would it be nicer if the money that was used to support those opulent edifices could be spent on improving the impoverished conditions of the people who support them? The demolition that needs to be done is the practice of giving to edifices when people are starving around them. This seems very logical to me.

When people are in need, why isn't the money better spent this way?

Do some people need to be re-educated?


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 26 Sep 11 - 11:36 AM

it appears on the surface that some people are too "touchy"
unless the doc insisted on sharing his faith after a refusal ,whats the problem?if a muslim or even an atheist medic wanted to discuss their faith i as a christian would,nt get upset by it.
it appears this practise offers a holistic approach and IMO as long as it is not obligatory on patients it is a good thing which some might be glad to avail themselves of.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 26 Sep 11 - 11:59 AM

Pete, if it were only that, it wouldn't be too much of a problem, though on principle I would say it was inappropriate, and I am a Christian.

The point is that it was said to a person who was about as far down the road to death as it gets, a cancer sufferer who had just been handed the news that his cancer had returned.

For me, that adds up to a vulnerable patient, who will grasp at any straw which presents the slightest hope.

That is not the time for a one sided attempt at recruitment to the Church.

That, I think, is the reason why his superiors find his actions unprofessional, and in the circumstances, WRONG!

His job is to deal with the patient's physical and medical needs, neither of which require a religious commitment.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 26 Sep 11 - 02:51 PM

don,i dont think that recruiting was on the docs mind at all.
if it were ,it was likely to be short lived in this life.
why is it so hard to accept that the holistic care was out of compassionate care.
care i presume that was offerred ,-not enforced-

look forward to next kemsing session .
best wishes
pete


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Stringsinger
Date: 27 Sep 11 - 10:59 AM

What Jim Carroll said. A-Women!


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 28 Sep 11 - 06:27 PM

Pete, with the greatest respect, Holistic Medicine and Holistic treatment relate to treatment of the whole patient physically.

You are seriously stretching the meaning when you start to include the soul as being part of that treatment.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Sep 11 - 07:05 PM

it was said

I haven't seen any clear and reliable report of what was said.

Incidentally a definition of "holistic" that is purely directed at physical symptoms is not one that I think too many practitioners would recognise. But that's maybe a topic for another thread.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Joe Offer
Date: 29 Sep 11 - 01:19 AM

Stringsinger, you're going to have to give me concrete examples of opulent churches being built where the people around them are starving. In the United States, the closest to your description might be the Polish cathedrals that served as hiring halls, places of employment, community centers, and symbols of ethnic identity. From what I know of Catholic churches being built in Africa, they usually serve multiple purposes - schools and community centers, mostly.

It's true the Spaniards built magnificent churches as a symbol of their power and oppression in South America, but that was a long time ago.

Nowadays, churches are generally built by the people and for the people - as was the case with ethnic churches in the United States.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 29 Sep 11 - 03:21 AM

The Basilica of Our Lady of the Peace in Yamassoukro would go a long way to make this case.

But I know, it's a bit of a quirk and a bit too much out of the ordinary.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Musket
Date: 29 Sep 11 - 06:52 AM

Holistic approach is all well and good. GPs have a framework to guide them in offering more than the scientific aspects of healthcare. If they go beyond that, they are answerable to their registering body The GMC.

Physical symptoms can be addressed through a more holistic approach. If that were not the case, the placebo effect would not have a 20% success rate! GPs, more than any other doctor appreciate that that their role includes the overall well being. After all, a positive mind speeds up recovery. A study in The British Medical Journal many years ago demonstrated that in many minor ailment cases, patients started feeling better before the medication had a biological chance to start making a difference. Sometimes, just the act of getting off your arse and seeing a GP starts the recovery process. After all, your body contains enough chemicals to tackle many issues, they just need a kick start by the brain.

None of this affects the issue of bringing Jesus into the consulting room. You can get struck off for that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: John P
Date: 29 Sep 11 - 09:40 AM

A holistic approach to healing includes seeing to the spiritual, emotional, and mental needs of the patient as well as the physical. Trying to call Christian proselytizing an attempt at a holistic healing, however, is stretching that definition to the breaking point. Unless you are sure the patient is a religious person and wants to talk about, you just don't do it. The spiritual needs of the patient rarely includes being preached at. "Spiritual" and "religion" don't mean the same thing at all.

The practitioner's job is to step outside of the themselves and provide what the patient needs, not what the practitioner believes.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Sep 11 - 10:37 AM

I don't actually think I'd disagree with you much about the principles involved, John. But tying discussion to a particular very unclear case messes up the process of exploring that kind of thing.

It makes sense to talk about principles, and about the limits on what is appropriate, but going beyond that to talk about particular cases in ignorance of the full facts doesn't help. Not just on this case, people seem to fall into that trap time and time again, in relation to all kind of issues.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 29 Sep 11 - 11:36 AM

our local hospice team holistic approach certainly includes the spiritual,but without any coercion to partake of such if contrary to patient wishes.if the patient declines it should be dropped.
whether offering such in the context of the medics own faith is illegal or not i dont know.but if it is- in the above proviso - illegal,-to quote from dickens"the law is an ass!" and PC gone mad IMO.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Musket
Date: 29 Sep 11 - 11:42 AM

I have been involved in cases of proselytising clinicians from the complaints side in my past. One thing that comes across very clearly is the refusal to see that it is a problem, largely on the basis that doing God's work transcends any laws.

John P makes a succinct point regarding providing what somebody needs, not what the practitioner believes. Sadly, the mindset I have had to tackle has included thinking that the patient needs what the practitioner believes.

And so it goes on..... (Just out of the need for balance etc, I will point out that the cases I have reviewed, and there have been a few over the years, the practitioner, whether doctor, nurse or AHP has been other religions as well as Christian. Interestingly, I have never personally come across clinicians proselytising Islamic faith. However, cases of pharmacists refusing to dispense morning after pills are more common with that particular faith.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Penny S.
Date: 29 Sep 11 - 03:29 PM

A bit of real persecution in the news today, of a pastor in Iran condemned to death for being an apostate to Islam. He has been told he will be allowed to live if he renounces his Christianity.

Not being allowed to speak to patients, or wear a cross fades into insignificance.

Penny


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Stringsinger
Date: 29 Sep 11 - 04:18 PM

The Catholic Cathedral in Juarez, Chihuahua is large, opulent, and adjoining it is the Mission of Guadelupe, two very large edifices in one of the most turbulent drug laden poverty centers of the world unless you count the incomes of the drug cartels.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Stringsinger
Date: 29 Sep 11 - 04:54 PM

Joe, I have to make my position clear. I am a supporter of the First Amendment and do not want to see any religion in this country outlawed, people having the right to believe what they want, acknowledging that as people, there are many with whom I would disagree as to their religious choices.

There are people who profess Catholicism who I greatly admire although I think they would be who they are regardless of that professed belief.

The Berigan Brothers, Dennis Kucinich, Micheal Moore, Ammon Hennesey, Dorothy Day. Roy Bourgeois, members of Liberation Theology in Central America and I'm sure there are more.

I don't decry anyone's right to believe whatever they want so I don't want to be painted as someone who would deny this basic right.

I think that my criticism of opulent churches extend beyond just Catholic Cathedrals, Protestant, Islamic, Judaic and other edifices are easy to find and it is my view that the money to support these buildings could be better used to eliminate poverty.

That's my position.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Sep 11 - 05:19 PM

I have been waiting for someone to mention poor Yusuf Naderkhani.
Young father in gaol on death row for two years for wanting to be a Christian.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-15116650


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 29 Sep 11 - 05:28 PM

Keith ~ PennyS mentioned this 4 or 5 posts back: you seem to have missed it.

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 29 Sep 11 - 05:40 PM

quite agree penny-the worst i get is badmouthing or disdain.nothing compared to believers in hardline communist/muslim/hindu ,and even i think, buddhist locations.
at least medics in the west could only lose their jobs and not their lives for not compromising their faith.best wishes
pete


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Joe Offer
Date: 29 Sep 11 - 11:37 PM

Well, Frank,
I can't second-guess people for building lavish churches. If people are forced to build lavish churches, that's another matter. Oftentimes, poor people build lavish churches and other public buildings as a matter of pride, showing that they too can build and possess something beautiful. Many times, such buildings provide a place of employment and an outlet for artistic expression and a community gathering place and education center - and you can't eat any of the materials used in building a religious edifice.
-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Sep 11 - 11:49 PM

Exactly who are the Christians persecuting now?

The big 3 have been hating each other for a long time.

I bet if Christ were alive today,
he would enjoy the Vatican.
He would invite the squalid poor to live in the Vatican
and Christ would be cruxified all over again.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 02:38 AM

Sorry Penny.
It was worthy of repeating though, wasn't it?


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 06:40 AM

""and even i think, buddhist locations.
at least medics in the west could only lose their jobs and not their lives for not compromising their faith.best wishes
""

Buddhist locations?

I'd like to see some evidence of Buddhist fundamentalism, given that their whole religion is based on respect for all life forms, and they won't even step on an ant.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 06:59 AM

they won't even step on an ant That's the Jains, who are Hindus.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 07:09 AM

Buddhists too.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Musket
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 07:15 AM

"Doctors can only lose their job"

I suppose comparing to being put to death for not believing, it is a bit tame.

However, there is no clash in being a doctor and having faith. The clash is using your faith in your professional capacity. Most doctors in The UK who profess a faith are Muslims, and interpret, as per The Q'ran I am told, that many lifestyle taboos are not relevant where and when practicing healthcare. Especially the gender familiarity restrictions. Likewise for the many Hindu, Jewish and Buddhist doctors.

Like it or lump it, the times it is an issue is with Christians, usually of the born again variety. I have many church going friends but I note it is the ones who rediscovered their faith who seem to think everybody else might be interested in their hobby.

Persecution, as this thread tries to focus on, is a two way street. Every time I read of a cleric who put's the rules of his church on either the same level or a higher level than the laws of the land, I question his or her abuse of the trust many people install in him or her. Every time I note the Synod is having problems coming to terms with equality laws, I question their right to operate as a corporate structure under UK law.

Nothing in my concerns is about or reflects on the individual right to believe in a faith system or to set your own moral compass by it. I shudder at the thought of persecuting Christians, but see the need to scrutinise Christian structures where the democratic process, (or Parliamentary sovereignty) is ignored. The only losers can be those who try to inflict their beliefs on others.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Bill D
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 07:33 AM

"Buddhists too"

Not really...read "The Nature of Existence and The Reality of Suffering" on this page.

http://www.hinduwebsite.com/jainism/buddhismvsjainism.asp


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 07:50 AM

But surely it is good to kill sometimes. To kill disease-spreading insects, for example, or someone who is going to kill you?


It might be good for you but what about that thing or that person? They wish to live just as you do. When you decide to kill a disease-spreading insect, your intention is perhaps a mixture of self-concern (good) and revulsion (bad). The act will benefit yourself (good) but obviously it will not benefit that creature (bad). So at times it may be necessary to kill but it is never wholly good.


You Buddhists are too concerned about ants and bugs.


Buddhists strive to develop a compassion that is undiscriminating and all-embracing.
http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/qanda04.htm


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: saulgoldie
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 08:37 AM

I think we can all agree that *some* Christians have been and are persecuted.
I think we can also agree that *some* Christians have persecuted others, even in current times.
I think we can also agree that being the persecutors or the persecutees is not limited to Christians.
I *hope* we can agree that persecution of anyone *just because of the religion they choose, including those who do not practice any religion* is wrong, wrong, wrong, and will not get humanity to where I think we want to be.

But then, I am an idealist. And even idealists have been persecuted. So later today, I am going to the 2011 Getaway, where I plan to discuss and experience music, and not religion.

Saul


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 08:43 AM

Can we all agree that, right now, Christians are persecuted more than any other minority or faith group?


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 08:46 AM

Also, who are Christians persecuting right now?


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 08:49 AM

Not really!!

But we could just agree to disagree.

That's it for me.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 08:57 AM

""Also, who are Christians persecuting right now?""

Cross posted, but I can't let that pass.

So called Christians (the lunatic, fanatical fundamentalist fringe) are, as you well know, persecuting:-

1. Gay couples who want a stable, lasting, and formally recognised relationship.

2. The majority of Muslims, who just want to get on with their lives.

3. Any woman who seeks an abortion, for any reason.

The list is longer, but I can't be arsed. You work it out Keith. It may not have reached the stage of killing them (in most cases), but it IS nonetheless persecution.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 09:02 AM

Gay people and abortion seekers are persecuted by extremists of all religions, not specificall Christian, and other religions are more extreme in that persecution.
I challenge that Christians are persecuting Muslims.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 09:12 AM

I see!!

If others are doing the same thing it means that Christians mysteriously are not?

Very strange logic, until I remember the source!

As to the other claim, every time a Christian says "Muslims are terrorists" he is persecuting the vast majority.

I've already said it once. You and I will never reach agreement, because for you, no change of opinion is possible.

And now I'm done with it.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 09:21 AM

Why so unfriendly Don?

If gay people are being persecuted by some Christians, but mainly and worse by other religions, it seems harsh to single them out.

I dispute that "Muslims are terrorists" is being said by Christians.
None that I have ever heard.
How do you justify that claim Don?


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Joe Offer
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 11:35 AM

Keith Says: Can we all agree that, right now, Christians are persecuted more than any other minority or faith group?

Well, no, Keith. I think it's safe to say that women have always been the most-persecuted "minority," although I believe they are a majority.

I think it would be safe to say that whenever we make sweeping statements about groups, we're most likely to be wrong. I suppose though, that with over a billion Christians, many are likely to be persecuted - especially the women (often by their own husbands). In general, though, we're better off to discuss specifics.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: saulgoldie
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 12:16 PM

Keith,
Demonizing Muslims is a punchcard issue for the TeaPublicans, most of whom at least *call* themselves Christian, even if they don't embody Christianity. Numerous examples out there. On the record statements. And actions.

And can their consistent advocation for policies to restrict birth control for women not be seen as persecution? It is *consistent.* It is directed *at* women. It is an affront to their rights as people. Why is that not persecution? Is torching Planned Parenthood clinics not persecution?

Saul


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Musket
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 01:37 PM

Ok, enough's enough.

Get me some nails and a hammer and I'll persecute the buggers myself.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 01:43 PM

OK guys, but I just felt that the statement "I think we can all agree that *some* Christians have been and are persecuted. " understates the extent of the persecution now being suffered by so many Christians in so many parts of the globe.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 02:15 PM

Is it pedantic to point out that women are probably not a minority anywhere?

It isn't just minorities that get persecuted - powerful minorities are often the worst oppressors.
................

When it comes to religious oppression and persecution, for a variety of reasons, it seems pretty evident that Keith is correct that Christians, and Christian congregations are the target of most of the worst examples at this time.

But we should recognise that our own societies have had a part tomplay in bringing this about. For example the invasion of Iraq has led to terrible and irreparable damage to Christian communities which dated back to pre-Muslim times, and had lived amicably among Muslim neighbours for centuries.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Penny S.
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 04:21 PM

I think Joe did make the point that women are not a minority.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Oct 11 - 02:24 PM

A quote by Chesterton I came across which seems relevant to much of this discussion:

"Religious liberty might be supposed to mean that everybody is free to discuss religion. In practice it means that hardly anybody is allowed to mention it."


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Dec 11 - 08:57 AM

Dr Rowan Williams said that many Christians were leaving countries such as Iraq and Egypt in the face of persecution.

Many others had been forced to retreat to enclaves for their safety, he said.

Dr Williams added that the treatment of Christians would be the "litmus test" of the success of the Arab Spring.

The head of the world's Anglicans made his claims in the House of Lords.

He said: "At the present moment the position of Christians in the region is more vulnerable than it has been for centuries.

"The flow of Christian refugees from Iraq in the wake of constant threat and attack has left a dramatically depleted Christian population there."

Those who chose to stay in the country had often withdrawn to segregated enclaves for their safety, he said.


The Archbishop says Coptic Christians living in Egypt are facing persecution "Many recognise with heavy hearts things may come to such a pass that there are few, if any other options that will actually guarantee the safety of Christians there," the Archbishop said.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Dec 11 - 02:36 PM

First thought that entered my head when I saw the title of this thread is "of or by?"
No religion can claim the moral high ground when it comes to persecuting those who don't fit their particular set of guidelines. The history of the Christian church is second-to-none in having earned itself a bloodsoaked reputation - Quentin Tarrantino - eat your heart out!!!
Even under the general umbrella of Christianity - hard luck if you happen to 'kick with the wrong foot' (and even within the "right" denomination you are not guaranteed protection from abuse - ask the possible victims of Archbishop McQuaid.
Religion deals in mystical absolutes and while it has any say whatever in the day-to-day running of our lives other than that of spiritual guidance, the better, and even that should be only with the total agreement of consenting adults.
Religion and politics is a toxic mix and the sooner it is neutralised, the more likely we are to stop tearing each others heads off in the name of a spiritual bogie-man
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Dec 11 - 04:57 PM

First thought that entered my head when I saw the title of this thread is "of or by?"
No religion can claim the moral high ground when it comes to persecuting those who don't fit their particular set of guidelines


So who is being persecuted by Christians?
I asked this earlier and Don made some suggetions, but I pointed out that, where it happened, Christians were much less guilty of it than others.
So, why single them out?
You defend other faiths Jim.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Dec 11 - 03:15 AM

Sorry Keith - no dialogue here to nause up yet another thread.
You've had your answer to that one from others, far more eloquently than I could put mine.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Dec 11 - 04:50 AM

This was the only answer I got to that question.
1. Gay couples who want a stable, lasting, and formally recognised relationship.

2. The majority of Muslims, who just want to get on with their lives.

3. Any woman who seeks an abortion, for any reason.

Of all religions, I would say that Christians are no less tolerant, and usually far more tolerant, especially of gay and women's rights, than other groups.
So why single out Christians?

You express much sympathy for other persecuted minorities Jim.
The Bedouin Israelis, who despite their "persecution" are thriving, with the fastest growing population of any group on the planet.

Have you none to spare for the persecuted Christians whose numbers are dwindling under the relentless onslaught, in some cases to extinction?


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Dec 11 - 07:12 AM

This is getting very worrying - I find myself agreeing with Mither, DonT, and even Mr Fluids.

But there is persecution of Xtians in Malaysia, and it is starting tol look as if persecution of Xtians in Egypt is coming back onto the agenda.

Conversely, anyone looking for the unacceptable face of Xtianity need look no further than (P)Rick Perry.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Dec 11 - 08:40 AM

"You defend other faiths Jim."
For the record - I don't defend other faiths; I defend the innocent victims of inter-religious warfare and religious intolerance by any fundamentalist religious extremists, be they Muslim, Christian, Zionist... whoever "they can all go to their own particular hell in a handcart" - remember?
I have no religion and am only interested in the subject while it puts innocent people's lives at risk and brings discord and unhappiness to their existance. The only way I can see that ever happening is to nuetralise any influence that religious groups may have on the way the world is governed. Here in Ireland, we are still counting the child rape victims of Christian persecution (or don't Catholic clerics count as Christians in your book?) - a never-ending task, it would appear.
This is a perfect example of why you really aren't worth debating with - you don't read what others write, then you concoct a distorted version of what has been put forward to suit your own particular 'message to the world' - go away please.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Dec 11 - 08:51 AM

Fair point Jim, but I already changed my statement to minorities rather than faiths.
My first should have said, "You defend other minorities Jim."
Why have you no sympathy for this, the most persecuted of all.

A cut/paste,

Christians have only recently begun to talk about how Muslim gangs simply come and take possession of Christian-owned land while the Palestinian security services, almost exclusively staffed by Muslims, stand by. Mr. Qumsieh's own home was firebombed three years ago. The perpetrators were never caught.

"We have never suffered as we are suffering now," Mr. Qumsieh confesses, violating his own introductory warning to the assorted foreign correspondents in his office not to use the word "suffering."

Always a minority religion among the predominantly Muslim Palestinians, Christians are, Mr. Qumsieh says, "melting away," even in Bethlehem. While they represented about 80% of the city's population 60 years ago, their numbers are now down to about 20%, a result not just of Muslims' higher birth rates but also widespread Christian emigration. "Our future as a Christian community here is gloomy," Mr. Qumsieh says.

and,


Mr. Ibrahim's crime in that Hamas-ruled territory was to be a Christian, a transgression he compounded in the Islamists' eyes by writing love poems.

"Muslims tied to Hamas tried to take me twice," says Mr. Ibrahim, and he didn't want to find out what they'd do to him if they ever kidnapped him. He hasn't seen his family since Christmas 2007 and is afraid even to talk to them on the phone.

Speaking to a group of foreign journalists in the Bethlehem Bible College where he is studying theology, Mr. Ibrahim describes a life of fear in Gaza. "My sister is under a lot of pressure to wear a headscarf. People are turning more and more to Islamic fundamentalism and the situation for Christians is very difficult," he says.

In 2007, one year after the Hamas takeover, the owner of Gaza's only Christian bookstore was abducted and murdered. Christian shops and schools have been firebombed. Little wonder that most of Mr. Ibrahim's Christian friends have also left Gaza.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Dec 11 - 10:03 AM

I am not – not - not getting into a dialogue again with you - though I can't help but notice that you object to English Christians being made aware of American Christian churches excluding mixed-race couples from their services -(see Christian Segregationism 2011)
"It is extraordinary that The Guardian thinks its UK readers need to know all about this. Am I being paranoid, or are Christians being singled out for bad copy?"
It appears that you object to Muslims persecuting Christians, but are quite happy with the idea that Christian Churches persecute Christians because of their colour - lets keep our worship all in the same skin-tone eh - what!.
As I said before - go away please - you've made yourself perfectly clear.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Dec 11 - 12:11 PM

On that subject I said,
"Greg,of course they should be singled out, but is it an issue of international importance.
A tiny rural church in the backwoods of Kentucky?
Fifteen voted. (only nine voted as bigots)
My suspicion is that, in the pages of The Guardian and similar, it is open season on throwing dirt at Christians just now. "

Scouring the world for an anti-Christian story however trivial, I see as another example of persecution.

Jim, I do not seek dialogue with you, because you always turn it into a nasty, malicious attack on me personally, as again in your last post!

My reopening post was NOT directed at you.
It was my bad luck that you were the only respondent.
If you post you must expect to be replied to.
Imperious commands to "go away" have only a comedic effect.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Dec 11 - 01:26 PM

"Scouring the world for an anti-Christian story however trivial,"
Returning to the "Good Ol' Days" of racial segregation is "trivial"
Thank you for reminding me of everything I detest about racism (and of the hypocricy of religion - which makes me thank god I am an atheist)
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Dec 11 - 02:03 PM

There are 9 bigots in a remote Kentucky backwoods church.
Hold the front page!

If they were not just looking for anti-Christian copy, they would not have to resort to such trivia.

Obviously there is no hope of you actually addressing the issues of this thread Jim.
You just rake up groundless smears against me as a person.
That is your only reason for posting here.
You are a sad, obsessed person Jim.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Joe Offer
Date: 10 Dec 11 - 02:30 PM

Gee, I wonder if there's a way to make a combat thread visible only to the warring parties....

From all this discussion, I think it can be concluded that some Christians are persecuted, and some are persecutors. And the same goes for Muslims, and for just about any other group. I think it's best to assess individuals as individuals, and not for their group affiliation.

That being said, there ARE places in this world where people are persecuted for their faith or gender or sexual orientation or any number of other things, and such persecution must be stopped - no group "deserves" to be persecuted.

As you were, Keith and Jim.

Or not.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Dec 11 - 03:10 PM

That being said, there ARE places in this world where people are persecuted for their faith or gender or sexual orientation or any number of other things,

Yup, Joe, and one of these places is the Good Old U. S. of A. - the "best country in the world" accordin\fg to the christian[sic]Exceptionalist movenment.

John 11:35


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Dec 11 - 03:31 PM

"Gee, I wonder if there's a way to make a combat thread visible only to the warring parties....
Sorry Joe but it would have been interesting to see a comment about Keith's view of Christianity from a Chrristian - my mistake
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 11 Dec 11 - 01:00 PM

Keith is a very difficult person with whom to discuss any serious subject.

His position is always the same.

Tell him that somebody is committing acts of assault, persecution or racist hate and no matter how solid the evidence, he will reply somebody else is doing it more, or worse, and therefore your original statement must be wrong.

Nobody has yet been able to educate him out of the primary school playground excuse mentality, so all you get is "Jimmy did it too miss".

In Keith's world, if a Muslim threw a snowball at a Christian, that would be persecution, and if the Christian pulled out a gun and shot him, that would be just a predictable response to Muslim aggression.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Dec 11 - 01:19 PM

That is unjust Don.
That slur on my character is unjustifiable.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 11 Dec 11 - 02:46 PM

Read some of your own posts Keith, and note how many times you do it.

e.g. Syria treats the Bedouins worse than Israel and therefore we shouldn't complain about Israel's treatment.

A non argument since we were not discussing treatment of Bedouins worldwide, but in fact the topic was Israel's behaviour.

You do it all the time.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Dec 11 - 03:03 PM

Not a fair representation of my views Don.
Israel was being demonized for its treatment of the Bedouin.

I provided evidence of the investment being made in their housing by Israel, and that the community was thriving.

You actually agreed with me Don, that it was reasonable to acknowledge that the treatment by Israel of its Bedouin was far better than their treatment at the hands of their Arab brothers in Egypt and Jordan.
And that is all I did.
Your criticism of me is unfounded.

Why am I always attacked by misrepresenting my arguments in previous threads, instead of the points I am currently making?
Because it is easier?


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Dec 11 - 03:42 PM

" and that the community was thriving."
Next to a toxic rubbish dump - which you were fully informed of, given the evidence of and are now choosing to ignore once again - I think you have just shown Don's summing up to be about right, don't you?
I doubt if it would be possible to "slur " your "character" any more than you manage to do yourself.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Dec 11 - 03:50 PM

I also provided evidence about the dump.
I provided pictures.
It is an ordinary domestic dump found in all towns.
It is surrounded by apartments and houses.
It is a few minutes walk from some of Jerusalem's most holy sites.
Non-Bedouin Palestinians are contesting that they should be given the sites.

Why are we discussing it on this thread lads?
Any comments on my view that Christians are an exceptionally persecuted minority?


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 11 Dec 11 - 03:58 PM

""Why are we discussing it on this thread lads?
Any comments on my view that Christians are an exceptionally persecuted minority?
""

I see! You can bring the subject of Syrian actions to a discussion of Israeli behaviour, but when I respond to a direct challenge to produce evidence of your behaviour, any evidence from outside this thread is disqualified by you.

Another indication that I was right in my assessment.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 11 Dec 11 - 04:03 PM

""Any comments on my view that Christians are an exceptionally persecuted minority?""

Based on death tolls in Vietnam, Cambodia, Iraq, Afghanistan, Rwanda, Sudan, Darfur etc. etc.

NO! Not especially.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Dec 11 - 04:51 PM

From your list, let us just consider those conflicts that are of this century.
Sudan, where the Muslim government persecuted the Christian minority in Darfur to an extent verging on genocide.

And Iraq, where the once thriving Christian community has been persecuted almost to extinction.

Still no comment Don?


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 11 Dec 11 - 06:12 PM

""Sudan, where the Muslim government persecuted the Christian minority in Darfur to an extent verging on genocide.""

I included Darfur because it was anti Christian and to show once again that the rest of us are capable of seeing two sides, while you only see the Christian or the Jewish side.

That anti Christian action and a similar one in Iraq took your attention, but the thousands of Muslims, Buddhists and others murdered in my other examples were, as usual, beneath your notice.

And, by the way, events in the eighties and nineties, while technically of the last century, are all in the last thirty years, and only the fact that those years span the turn of a century grants you the opportunity you seize upon so eagerly, to play down the events which you don't wish to acknowledge.

Once again you show that my earlier assessment of your position is both justified and true.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Dec 11 - 01:09 AM

Rwanda was an inter-tribal conflict.
Vietnam, Cambodia and Afghanistan were about conflicting political ideologies, not persecuting minorities.

Any comments on my view that Christians are an exceptionally persecuted minority?


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Musket
Date: 12 Dec 11 - 04:40 AM

Christian persecution..

Right!

Yesterday, three, (count them) three different sets of smiling people came to my door during the course of as many hours asking if I had taken Jesus into my life.

Can anybody tell me how to stop the buggers persecuting my right to watch the latest Harry Potter DVD in peace?

Christian persecution should be a crime. Stop the buggers persecuting me anyway.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Dec 11 - 06:23 AM

I wonder if I should give Keith a difficult dilemma by pointing out that in Jerusalem Jewish extremists are persecuting not only other Jews but also Xtians for (for example) non-adherence to extremist Jewish dress odes for women.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Dec 11 - 06:35 AM

There is no dilemma there Richard.
It is an example of mild persecution, which I deplore.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Dec 11 - 07:32 AM

If you look at the Wiki page on Christian Persecution, you find 23 countries listed, but not Israel.
Also this.
"Currently (as of 2010), as estimated by the Christian missionary organisation Open Doors UK, an estimated 1 million Christians face persecution, particularly in North Korea, Iran and Saudi Arabia.[2] A recent study, cited by the Vatican, reported that 75 out of every 100 people killed due to religious hatred are Christian.[3"


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Dec 11 - 08:56 AM

the Wiki page on Christian Persecution,

Ah, yess, the absolutely authoritative Blog-O-Paedia!

I wouldn't believe them without corroboration if they said the earth was round (which it ain't)


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 12 Dec 11 - 09:44 AM

Ah, Ian M ~~ glad you still around. How about Arsenal now, then? Two above, & 2 points clear of, Liverpool. Must be because of my Maintaining The Faith, eh?

Tee-hee.
〠〠〠〠〠〠


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 12 Dec 11 - 10:36 AM

""Rwanda was an inter-tribal conflict.
Vietnam, Cambodia and Afghanistan were about conflicting political ideologies, not persecuting minorities.

Any comments on my view that Christians are an exceptionally persecuted minority?
""

Keep wriggling Keith.

1. Rwanda was not straightforward tribal conflict, but the persecution and annihilation of one tribe by another, much stronger and better equipped.

2. Vietnam was the persecution of one group of citizens by another, aided by outsiders.

3. Cambodia was the persecution, and extinction, of all who were considered, by a paranoid maniac leader, to be intellectuals, his definition of intellectuals being anybody who used a fountain pen.

You cannot simply decide to redefine words to support your failing arguments.

People are being persecuted all over this rotten world for their religious or political beliefs, their colour or race and their sexual orientation, and you want the world to admit that Christians are the most persecuted?

Sorry mate, but on the death toll alone that is far from the truth.

Now, can we put your ridiculous claims aside, and discuss the means by which ALL human beings (including Christians) might be protected from persecution?

That discussion might be worth the band width!! This one is NOT!!

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Dec 11 - 11:02 AM

Don, Rwanda WAS an example of a minority being persecuted.
It was genocide.
All your other examples were wars between rival political ideologies.

If you do not think the persecution of minorities, by death, imprisonment, rape and seizure or destruction of property, worth discussing, no-one is forcing you.

Greg, I just cited Wiki for an overview.
What do you want confirmed?


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 12 Dec 11 - 11:37 AM

""If you do not think the persecution of minorities, by death, imprisonment, rape and seizure or destruction of property, worth discussing, no-one is forcing you.""

You really are one of a kind, and in other circumstances you would amuse me.

Accuse the other party of doing what in fact you are doing yourself, but it doesn't work.

You carefully ignored the persecution of Hazara and of women in Afghanistan by the Taliban, and the persecution of Shia Muslims in Iraq.

In fact you stated (11th Dec 04.51) that the persecution in Iraq was against Christians, and ignored the inter Muslim aspect.

You are attempting to make your case by ignoring all facts that militate against you, but a few minutes of research show that many other religious, political, and gender specific groups are persecuted just as much, and in some cases more.

Your myth is BUSTED!! Christians are being persecuted, as are many others, but you refuse to notice the others because you don't regard their lives as significant.

What other reason can there be for adhering to the lie that political conflict is NOT persecution, when the Chi-Coms pour resources into a third world country to convert it to Communism?

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Dec 11 - 12:17 PM

I ignored nothing.
Apart from Shia not being a minority in Iraq, you can not deny that Christians suffer great persecution there, and also in Afghanistan.

My case is that Christian persecution is a massive and under-reported abomination.
Yes others are persecuted, but none more than Christians.

If you say I am wrong to state that, then justify.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Mrrzy
Date: 12 Dec 11 - 02:10 PM

One I'm in favor of:
UK courts have determined that as long as they pr/teach that homosexuality is a sin, Christians are unfit to adopt, as LGBT rights trump "freedom of conscience" (quotation marks theirs). I think there is also the danger to girls of not being taught biology if it shades into contraception, another great peril to be avoided.

Chalk one up for the reasonable!


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 12 Dec 11 - 02:41 PM

chalk one up for less adoptive families and the infringement of freedom of belief!


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Penny S.
Date: 12 Dec 11 - 02:48 PM

I think there might be an argument that more women are persecuted, regardless of faith, than Christians. In some cases, by national or religious law, in others by the lawless, as in the Congo, and in others by partners in otherwise civilised countries, out of sight.

Penny


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Dec 11 - 03:27 PM

I regret my last post to Don.
Don, I do not mind that you disagree, but why is it always an attack on me?
You could just say, " I think you are wrong that Christians are most persecuted, and if they are it does not matter because any persecution is wrong."

Why do you need to misrepresent my contributions in old threads to make some kind of case against me personally?


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Dec 11 - 03:37 PM

Yes others are persecuted, but none more than Christians.

And you base this preposterous nonsensical statement on what factual evidence, pray?

Please elucidate, enumerate, & be specific.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Dec 11 - 04:53 PM

I refer you to the OP, which was prompted by the survey eluded to on the Wiki page.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Dec 11 - 05:21 PM

"OP"? You mean the "Opus Preposterous"?


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Dec 11 - 05:45 PM

No, the opening post Greg.
What is your objection please.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 12 Dec 11 - 05:51 PM

Well it is certain that no group celebrates and invites persecution like Christians. That is understandable considering nearly all of the early leaders are celebrated as martyrs. Keep in mind that Easter is the highest holy day.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Dec 11 - 06:37 PM

Well, Keith, From The OP - which is indeed the Opus Preposterous:

Aid to the Church in Need suggested 75% of religious persecution around the world is directed against Christians.

I'm not interestered what in Cardinal O'Brien and Aid to the Church in Need SUGGEST. Nor what they imply about Pakistan.

What can they document and prove? Please supply evidence.

Thanks.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Dec 11 - 01:13 AM

Whatever you think of the Pope Greg, I do not believe he would stand up and blatantly lie on the world stage.
If he did, I believe at least one of his numerous enemies would expose him, and the published research cited.

That did not happen.
That is why I think the figures reliable.
What is your reason for dismissing them Greg?
Prejudice?


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Joe Offer
Date: 13 Dec 11 - 01:54 AM

I fail to see why is is important to ascertain whether one group or another is the most persecuted. You can find evidence of just about every group being persecuted, in areas where that group is a minority.

It does seem clear that Christians are persecuted in some countries, particularly the ancient Christian churches that existed in the Middle East since before Islam came to be. Does anybody disagree with that?

A number of Palestinian Catholics have immigrated to the Sacramento area in California, and I spoke with a number of them. They told me they came to the United States because it was getting too difficult for them to live in Palestine, and they no longer felt secure there. I met a number of Palestinian Catholics in Palestine in 1999, and they seemed to be living quite well there at the time - but times have gotten tough for them lately.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Dec 11 - 02:38 AM

I fail to see why is is important to ascertain whether one group or another is the most persecuted.

I feel the same Joe, but The Vatican put it out and I thought it worthy of discussion here.
(I reopened the thread when Canterbury came out with the same point.)

I expected some dissent and a lot of apathy.
I was not prepared for the vitriolic attacks made on me for just mentioning it.
Why did it make people, Greg, Jim, Don T, ..... so very angry with me?

Greg described the OP as an "Opus Preposterous"
Every word came from the BBC news report linked to.
What drives him?


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Dec 11 - 03:54 AM

" I do not believe he would stand up and blatantly lie on the world stage."
The whole of the Catholic heirarch has stood up and lied on the world stage on the question of how the church covered up child abuse - and continues to do so.
If any good has come from the affair it is that the Church will never again be trusted in a position of authority in Ireland again.
And then, of course, there's Pope Pius X11...
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Dec 11 - 03:58 AM

The whole of the Catholic heirarch has stood up and lied on the world stage on the question of how the church covered up child abuse

And that lie has been exposed.
This statement has not even been challenged, except by the Mudcat Stasi.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Dec 11 - 05:03 AM

You have just claimed that the Pope would not lie (or maybe one of your experts said it and you're just repeating it). He would, did, and continues to lie and cover up and affair that has shaken the Catholic (Christian) church to its roots - which makes your statement somewhat crass really - as you yourself have just pointed out "And that lie has been exposed.".
It is you who head the Satsi here in covering up, excusing and ignoring human rights abuses, by church and state - try and get your act together.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Dec 11 - 05:55 AM

It is you who head the Satsi here in covering up, excusing and ignoring human rights abuses,

I have done none of those things.
Again, Jim is hate driven to attack me personally with false accusations, just for reporting this research.
It says more about you than me Jim.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Dec 11 - 06:59 AM

Oh dear Keith - you've just made one of your superb crassisms then contradicted yourself - and have the good grace to even acknowledge or defend it, let alone admit to it - nothing new under the sun.
As for my hating you - other than your persistant displays of racism, bigotry, defence of civil and human rights abuses, war crimes, the return to racial segregation..... and all the other characteristics that go into your make-up - I don't know you enough to hate you - just to despise your sub-species.
Most religions, given the power and opportunity, persecute in the name of their particular deity - that's part of what they are. To defend one and decry the other seems to be part of what you are.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Musket
Date: 13 Dec 11 - 07:20 AM

Tap Tap Tap

Bang Bang Bang.

"How are the carpenters getting on? I need some more wood here!"

Tap Tap Tap

Bang Bang Bang

"Right! Pass me another couple of Christians!"

Sorted.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Dec 11 - 07:41 AM

Oh dear Keith - you've just made one of your superb crassisms then contradicted yourself - and have the good grace to even acknowledge or defend it, let alone admit to it - nothing new under the sun.

I have no idea what this sentence is about or what it means.
Does anyone?
Help us out Jim.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Dec 11 - 08:25 AM

I do understand " persistant displays of racism, bigotry, defence of civil and human rights abuses, war crimes, the return to racial segregation....."

All lies.
Just hate driven lies.
Why not just argue the issues?
Because you can't?


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Dec 11 - 08:58 AM

"Just hate driven lies."
If we didn't have your own statements as evidence of your character, I have 20-odd PMs of an increasingly disturbing obsessive and racist nature to confirm my view of you - never had my own personal stalker before!
Why not argue the issue - why bother?
You've been told often enough that you don't read what others have to say - you don't even bother denying it.
Your arguments are as illogical, unreasoning and unpleasant as are all racist's; you admit to being ignorant on the subjects you involve yourself with and, when cornered, you blame somebody else for them..
As I said, why bother?
The best bit of advice I have received recently is to leave you to your own devices and let you show yourself up for what you are - I couldn't do a better job of that in a million years.
And please stop whingeing that I hate you - nobody cares that much to hold such strong feelings for you or your 'ideas'.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Dec 11 - 09:21 AM

More lies Jim.
My pms are as restrained and rational as my posts.
Why not post one?
The most "disturbing obsessive and racist" one you can find!
If you are not lying.

Why bother to argue the issues?
Because that is what normal people do.
All you want to do is talk about me, or rather the rabid monster you make me out to be.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Dec 11 - 10:41 AM

"Why not post one?"
Would you like the one that claims that Muslims are culturally corrupt because they marry first cousins?
You should have copies - you post them - I have no inclination to continue arguing with a racist brick-wall
Jim Caroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Dec 11 - 11:22 AM

This is the one that mentions cousin marriage Jim.


You have made a twat of yourself on recent threads, and so have I.
I know that you are no twat.
I read and admire the stuff you post above the line.
That is why I persevere with this.
I really am no racist, and I would love to straighten out the misunderstanding.

Why have you ignored the distinction between "believe" and "opinion" ?
The diagnosis, and the weather forecast?

I believe the universe began as an infinitely small region of space time 14.4 billion years ago.
I even teach it to my students, but it would be vastly overstating my knowledge to describe it as my opinion !
And yet, one year ago, I knew far more about the conditions of the early universe than BP culture.
I just could not have an opinion about it.

Nowhere is there a reference to the Pakistani culture being corrupt, no "All male Pakistanis being degenerate, no "cultural implants
True. And I have never claimed any of those things.

The offending was linked by the 5 to these specific aspects of the culture.
Late marriage for men.
No intimate relationships before marriage.
Unhappy arrange marriages, usually between cousins.
Remember now?
All the men are exposed to that culture are they not?
Culture influences behaviour does it not?

You say I did not establish the over-rep, but every contributor acknowledged it except you and Don.
When I achieved that I withdrew from the debate.
Remember?
That was my case. I did not care why they did it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Musket
Date: 13 Dec 11 - 12:21 PM

Victoria and Albert were first cousins..

In fact we made a commune for married first cousins here in The UK.

I reckon we called it Norfolk.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: akenaton
Date: 13 Dec 11 - 02:05 PM

For jokes.....I prefer Jim Knowledge meself!


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: ollaimh
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 11:10 AM

well here are all the usual suspects again. where do youse guys get the time to read and write all this clap trap.

it's a same all the christians and muslums can't be put onto another world to fight ot out and leave good people alone.

all the god based religions are militartist and repressive and the sooner we get free of them the better. it's hard to imagine a non fundamentalist sustem being worse.

here in canada the local native rights people have dug up the first unmarked graves of native children on residential school property. unmarked graves that weren't supossed to exist. the schools former owner the anglican church has iswsued threats to all employees that they will be fired of tey talk about the the documants they are hiding that confirm they were aware native children were dying of malnutrition and deprival of health care,while in their care.

bishop bennett you should be ashamed.

this after the "truth and reconcilliation commission" has been supported by the child murdering churches. they want lots of reconcilliation , but not much truth.

really it's time to shut down these crazy churches that have betrayed every teaching of christ. catholic anglican and protestant. start new churches with observation of the principles in the sermon on the mount. give away the money to the poor and environmental and social justice causes, and help others.

of course muslims art just as bad but i live where christians are the murderers of children. and it's time to come clean and stop doing the devils work .christians should have a slightly higher calling.

merry christmass all


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 11:45 AM

And a very merry Christmas back to you.

Should we take it that you are happy for any religious group to be persecuted, because the bastards deserve it?


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 06:19 PM

Of course, government soldiers killing children is very much part of the Christmas story. As is having to go into exile to get away from them.

The bits that tend to get to get slightly overlooked.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Dec 11 - 01:39 AM

It is so hard to find a nice card depicting the Slaughter Of The Innocents.
A real gap in the market.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Dec 11 - 03:50 AM

Maybe there's some peace and goodwill to be found here - on the other hand, it might be "leftie lies".
Jim Carroll

IRISH TIMES Dec 14th
JEWISH SETTLERS ATTACK ISRAELI BASE
Clashes take place as rights groups warn on settlements
MARK WEISS in Jerusalem and MICHAEL JANSEN

AS JEWISH, settlers and right-wing activists broke into an Israeli army base in the West Bank, inter¬national human rights groups were warning that Israel had stepped up unlawful home demolitions and settlement construction in East Jerusalem and the West Bank.
There were calls within Israel yesterday for militant settler groups to be classified as terrorist organisations after co-ordinated incidents against soldiers and army bases on Monday night.
Israeli Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu called the events intol¬erable and held emergency consul¬tations with defence officials.
"We must deal with these rioters with a firm hand. We will not tolerate a situation in which Israel Defence Forces officers and soldiers are attacked and dis¬tracted from protecting Israeli citizens," he said.
After rumours spread that the army was about to dismantle a number of illegal settler outposts, about 50 militant youths entered
the regional Israel Defence Forces base near the West Bank town of Qalqilya, pushing aside the two sol¬diers on guard duty. Inside the base the settlers ran amok, slashing army vehicle tires, lighting fires and damaging prop¬erty.
Elsewhere, some 300 settlers hurled stones at Palestinian vehi¬cles before targeting the jeep of a senior West Bank officer. The officer was called a Nazi and lightly wounded after being hit by a rock.
In a third incident, settlers entered a closed military zone close to the border with Jordan and took over an abandoned struc¬ture next to a Christian baptism site. This group said they were pro¬testing Jordanian efforts to pre¬vent the construction of a perma¬nent bridge for Jews and tourists to the Temple Mount holy site in Jerusalem's old city.
Meanwhile, 20 international human rights and aid agen¬cies warned the Middle East Quartet - comprising the US, UN, EU and Russia - that during the past year the Israeli government had stepped up unlawful home demolitions and settlement construction in East Jerusalem and the West Bank, "pushing Palestinians to the brink" and "destroying prospects for a just and durable peace".
Trocaire, Amnesty International, Oxfam International, Human Rights Watch and Medico International said: "Since the beginning of the year more than
500 Palestinian homes. wells, rainwater harvesting cisterns other essential structures have been   destroyed ... displacing more than 1,000 Palestinians."
They said this was more than double the number of people dis¬placed over the same period in 2010 and the highest figure since 2005. "More than half of those displaced have been children for whom the loss of their home is par¬ticularly devastating," they added. In a statement issued ahead of a Jerusalem meeting of the quartet, the agencies said "plans for 4,000 new settler housing units have been approved for East Jerusalem over the past 12 months - the highest number since . . . 2006", while in November Israel declared it would "speed up construction of 2,000" additional units in the West Bank and East Jerusalem. Expansion has been accompanied by a rise in violent attacks by settlers on Palestinians of more than "50 per cent compared to 2010 and by over 160 per cent com¬pared to 2009", said the agencies, quoting UN figures. This means settler violence has risen to the level of the peak year of 2005.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Dec 11 - 04:32 AM

You seem to have got the threads mixed up again Jim.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Dec 11 - 04:46 AM

Nope - you asked for Christmas cheer, you got it.
Complaining about one brand of religious/racial persecution while defending another is what this argument is about as fa as I'm concerned - unless you want to make yet another takeover bid for a thread
Of course you might have complained about olliam's somewhat inarticulate racist rant - but that's rather more in line with your own views.
Read the article for a change
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Dec 11 - 05:22 AM

you asked for Christmas cheer, you got it.
Er, no-one did Jim.

Complaining about one brand of religious/racial persecution while defending another
Er, no-one has done that either.

What is this about Jim?


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Dec 11 - 05:33 AM

Oh dear ~~~

Here we go round the mulberry bush,
The mulberry bush, the mulberry bush

It's in DT s.t. Mulberry Bush


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Dec 11 - 06:51 AM

"Er, no-one has done that either."
Support for Zionist terrorism - appeal for persecuted Christians
So we don't get to discuss religious persecution other than against Christians or racial segregation in US churches - anything else we shouldn't know about?
"Here we go round the mulberry bush,"
I have always thought smugness often comes with high higher education - thanks for the confirmation.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Dec 11 - 07:04 AM

This thread was prompted by a report that claimed Christians are the most persecuted religious group.
I do not know why that made so many Mudcatters so angry.

No-one I have seen has supported any terrorism, apart from one person who defends the Gazan rockets as self-defence.

If I come across as smug, I apologise.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Dec 11 - 08:35 AM

"No-one I have seen has supported any terrorism, "
You have been supporting Zionist State terrorism through at least two threads - you have claimed it as acceptable "self defence", you have downgraded massacres to "failure to prevent", you have condoned the killing of "hostages (sic)" you have "just put the Israelis case" while accusing everybody else of being biased.
In the light of this, you have little chance of channeling any discussion on religious persecution just around your particular 'flavour of the month'.
You choose not to go near the suggestion that most religions would and have used persecution as a method of prozletising their cause if they find themselves in a position to do so - The British Empire was built on such persecution.
No-one has supported the Gazan rockets as being anything but "inevitable in the face of State aggression, persecution and war crimes - if you have evidence of this not being the case, please produce it, or stop repeatedly lying - you have already admitted that this is not true.
You have chosen to make this yet another branch of Muslim/racist bigotry - do not complain about this being pointed out to you.
My reference to smugness was aimed at Tinkerbell, your fairy godmother - you have nothing to be smug about.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,keith A
Date: 15 Dec 11 - 08:55 AM

Jim, I wish you had a friend who would talk to you about all this.

Ollaimh's post. I have no time for his posts, but they do not contain racism! ("racist diatribe")
You just see it everywhere!

You have chosen to make this yet another branch of Muslim/racist bigotry
A delusion or a dream Jim.
You can certainly not justify that.

If you want to make this all about me again, do it by pm., but much better you have an actual talk with someone about it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Musket
Date: 15 Dec 11 - 09:09 AM

I'm not sure mudcatters, in the collective sense, are angry by a report about Christians being persecuted.

I can only speak for me.

I am dubious of the claim to be "the most" as this deflects from the sad state that the old planet is constantly in where lots of people get persecuted for their faith and many more persecute others. Evem more so, I note it is only Christians who are abusing their status as politicians in order to either enforce their faith on others, (carrying on and defending Sunday opening etc) or trying to get their faith exempt from laws that promote decency and tolerance, (Equality Act, Charities Act, etc.) I also note the Church of England has officially encouraged their members to speak out and accuse everybody else of persecuting them by having equality laws. Hypocrisy is an art best best practiced when your silly pointy hat has historically given you power over others.

The article in the original post was, according to the source, approved by The Vatican. I'm glad they approved it. After all, they know a bit about persecution, and not just historically.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Dec 11 - 11:08 AM

Guest post confirmed as mine.
Fair points Ian, but there was a lot of anger expressed over this.

Jim, do you really believe I have a fairy godmother called Tinkerbell who you can talk to?


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Dec 11 - 11:21 AM

"I have always thought smugness often comes with high higher education - thanks for the confirmation."
.,,.,.

Please, Jim ~~ no shoulder-chips: they are an intolerable burden.

Think he meant me, Keith, tho cannot quite follow the reasoning.

☤Tink☤


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST, Eb
Date: 15 Dec 11 - 11:37 AM

I don't understand this thread's thesis and what the opening post was meant to evoke.

* Of course, Christians are persecuted.
* Of course, Muslims are persecuted.
* Of course, minorities are persecuted.
** All of them - and many more - in various and multiple places.

If the OP's wish was to deplore the state of the world, he didn't manage it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Dec 11 - 11:46 AM

The OP thought it was an interesting claim that might provoke an interesting discussion.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Dec 11 - 11:50 AM

Anyhow, Jim ~ sorry & all that, but I have that reputation for 'legendary pedantry' mentioned on another forum to live up to --one doesn't need higher education to know that Tinkerbell and the Fairy Godmother are quite distinct characters belonging to entirely different Yuletide entertainments.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Dec 11 - 01:21 PM

Oh no they're not!....


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Dec 11 - 02:02 PM

The OP thought it was an interesting claim...

"Interesting?"

Despite what the Opus Preposterous thought, I think its bullshit.

And I'm not alone.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Dec 11 - 02:10 PM

Come, Keith ~ don't tell me you don't know your Cinders from your Pan...


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Dec 11 - 02:35 PM

As I have said before, those who wish to see "religion" abolished, are in the main following a political agenda.

Most are "liberals" who see religion, especially Christianity, as the last bastion of conservatism.
Dont expect any sympathy for persecution, or respect for your beliefs from these people, for they are liberal in name only.

The tide in the UK is beginning to turn away from the "anything goes society",the coming struggle for survival in Western economies will put an end to most of the idiocies.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Dec 11 - 02:51 PM

Greg, the OP was just the BBC news report.

You think it "bullshit" and you might be right.
But how do you KNOW that the research is flawed?
How can you be CERTAIN it is not, possibly, true?

I worry about people who just "know" unknowable things.
It smacks of superstition.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Dec 11 - 02:53 PM

Michael, do you need higher education to know that the correct response is,
"Oh yes they are!" ?


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Dec 11 - 02:58 PM

You'd better look BEHIND YOU!


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Dec 11 - 04:12 PM

But how do you KNOW that the research is flawed?
How can you be CERTAIN it is not, possibly, true?


And conversely, Keith, how do you KNOW that the research is NOT flawed?
How can you be CERTAIN it is not, likely, bullshit?

Lets see some documettation for the Opus Preposterous- then we'll talk.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Dec 11 - 06:11 PM

"I note it is only Christians who are abusing their status as politicians in order to either enforce their faith on others..."

That is a truly astonishing assertion by Ian Mather. I don't doubt that you believe it to be the case, Ian, but it just ain't true. There are many many countries where any non-Christian politician who doesn't do what you deny anyone does would be risking their career, or indeed their very life.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 15 Dec 11 - 06:49 PM

""It does seem clear that Christians are persecuted in some countries, particularly the ancient Christian churches that existed in the Middle East since before Islam came to be. Does anybody disagree with that?""

No Joe, I don't think any of us disagree with that.

The reasons for taking Keith to task have to do with his constantly taking up an extreme and untenable position on any subject to do with interaction of Christians or Jews with Muslims.

His agenda is invariably to denigrate Muslims as a group, by highlighting every instance of aggression on their part, no matter at whom directed, while at the same time ignoring, or denying that they are suffering any aggression at others' hands.

When he makes one single post which exhibits any balance of viewpoint, I shall leave him alone, but please don't hold your breath while waiting for him to do that.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Dec 11 - 07:19 PM

You would "leave him alone"?
I doubt that all your shouting and abuse, causes Keith anything other than mild amusement.
He has provided numerous examples of Christians being persecuted, whereas you have produced nothing to further your arguement.
Not one serious case of religious persecution of other faiths by Christians at this time.

Christ taught us to be non aggressive, to turn the other cheek, a philosophy of love.

I'm afraid you do not qualify.....please try again.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Stringsinger
Date: 15 Dec 11 - 07:24 PM

Christians are persecuted in foreign lands, Africa, Arab countries, Pakistan and other places but Muslims are persecuted in the United States, India and Israel. Mosques have been burnt. The problem is not just Christian persecution but ignoring the US First Amendment and the right to believe whatever you want if it doesn't harm others.

To set up a single instance of religious persecution is a red-herring to bait other religions that you don't like.

As an American, I have learned to tolerate many religions that I don't accept or particularly respect but I do respect the right of anyone to believe anything they want as long as it doesn't harm anyone.

Allowing guns into Christian worship services is worse than crying "fire" in a crowded theater, a complete misreading and distortion of the Second Amendment, as well as being hypocritical and hypoChristianical.

How many guns did Jesus own, for example?
'
Another question, who on this site is an authority on the Quran and it's meanings?
There seems to be a lot of speculation here that if applied to the Bible, would make the latter document offensive.

Religion has always been an excuse for hatred by some, no matter which one cited.

When violence becomes the modus operandi for religious expression, hypocrisy and corruption prevail, to whit, Constantine, Saladin, Hitler, John Bull, Savonarola, the KKK,
and all the churches that have practiced it.

Why is it that war and religion are most often together?


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Dec 11 - 07:37 PM

Well Frank....I am an atheist, but most of the aggressive rhetoric I hear comes from "my own side"

In fact I find it sickening at times, I know many people who gain the strength to carry on their lives through the teachings of Christ and their faith. People are not all born equal, some are weak and some are strong, some need sociability, some need solitude,some need the faith in something stronger than themselves......who are we to deny them?

I think Jesus was a great philosopher, he was no warmonger.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Dec 11 - 12:56 AM

Don,
His agenda is invariably to denigrate Muslims as a group,

That is simply not true.
I have never done that.
I have put Israel's case at times when no-one else did, and I have challenged the veracity of some anti-Israel propaganda.

Greg, you have expressed certainty.
I never have.
I have just said, "You think it "bullshit" and you might be right."

I have put up evidence, not proof.
The Vatican statement, and the reports and research behind it, has not been challenged even by the many enemies of the Church.
The Guardian, which finds space to report the antics of a few hillbillies, found no-one to accuse the Pope of bearing false witness.
So I ask you again Greg.
How do you KNOW that the research is flawed?
How can you be CERTAIN it is not, possibly, true?


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Dec 11 - 01:46 AM

Stringsinger,
Muslims are persecuted in the United States,

You are not comparing like with like.
The persecution referred to here is murder, imprisonment, rape, and seizure of property.

Also, it results in people being driven out, not welcomed in!
Christian communities are dwindling in the face of persecution.
Muslim communities are not declining anywhere.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Musket
Date: 16 Dec 11 - 09:14 AM

Sorry McGraw, I should have made clear I was writing about in UK Parliamentary terms. I did originally say that but wasn't happy with the rest of a paragraph and cut the lot.. My bad.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Musket
Date: 16 Dec 11 - 09:19 AM

Just out interest Akenaton, as you wax lyrical about people needing faith and who are we to deny them.. Are you as inclusive these days when talking of those who bowl from the pavilion end?

You see, tolerance is not exclusive to tolerating religions..


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Dec 11 - 09:37 AM

I have put up evidence

No, Keith, you have put up supposition and opinion.

No evidence.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Dec 11 - 09:51 AM

England is a small country in a big world, Ian...

So for that matter is the USA, relatively speaking.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Dec 11 - 09:59 AM

Greg, there are the cited reports and the lack of any challenge.
The issue made the news, and I put it in the OP.
I am not certain it is true.
How are you SO certain it is not, and why are you so hostile to it being discussed on our forum?


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 16 Dec 11 - 01:18 PM

""I am not certain it is true.
How are you SO certain it is not, and why are you so hostile to it being discussed on our forum?
""

For one who is uncertain that it is true, you are expending a huge amount of energy trying to persuade everybody that it is.

WHY?

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Dec 11 - 02:14 PM

But I have not tried to persuade anyone that it is true Don.
Read my posts.
If I am honest, I was hoping to raise awareness of the issue, but that is all.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Dec 11 - 02:31 PM

It's becoming increasingly unclear what is being referred to in expressions such as "it is true". This is a long thread, and a lot of issues have been touched upon.

Persecution of religious minorities is clearly going on in many parts of the world, and none of the significant religions escapes being both victims and perpetrators. That much is clear, and important - drawing up league tables of who has the worst record, either as victim or perpetrator, seems pretty pointless.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 16 Dec 11 - 02:50 PM

My point exactly Kevin.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Stringsinger
Date: 16 Dec 11 - 03:06 PM

Keith,

Christians have historically have done their share of murdering, imprisoning, rape or seizure of property, so it is too "like with like".

Christians are not dying out.   The majority of people in the US today are Christians.
They are all over Europe and in many Asian countries as well.

Muslim communities in the US are going underground because they are being targeted by Federal investigators. Mosques are being burnt and Muslims beaten and sometimes killed.

It's all very bad and a byproduct of religious intolerance that is not just one-sided.

It seems to be a pattern in every religion.

To paint Christians or Muslims with the same brush seems to me the height of intolerance and propaganda.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Stringsinger
Date: 16 Dec 11 - 03:11 PM

Aketon, if you refer to those on your side as atheists, I would challenge your view that they are as intolerant as you say. In fact, many atheists know more about the bible and koran than the followers of those tomes. Many atheists have come from religious backgrounds and have experienced the damage that was done to them by their parents, priests, rabbis, ministers and parishioners.   In my experience, they are usually more tolerant and understanding then those in their environment that they have left.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Dec 11 - 03:54 PM

There is nothing to disagree with in Kevin's post.
I do not feel contradicted by it. What is your point about it Don?
I can not think of any examples of Christian persecutors, but perhaps there are some somewhere.

Stringsinger, it would be massive thread drift to take into consideration all the wrongs done in the whole of history.
I am only considering the present.
The persecution of Muslims in US has not been reported here, to my knowledge.
What is the scale of the mosque burnings please, and how do US Muslims go "underground."


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Dec 11 - 04:06 PM

Aww did someone get another boo boo? Every December this same thread shows up.

Please be careful next December.


---


Now I will go back and actually read this thread...


Hmm, how did right wing Jews end up as the target?


To me its all one ongoing new and improved competitive religion business.
Christianity was derived from Judaism, Judaism was derived from Egyptian lore, Egyptian priests derived their lore from Assyria and the Nep Tepi...

Oh yes and Islam was derived from Christianity.


Thank goodness the eastern religions evolved on a seperate tree although the Greeks shared some multi god qualities with the east.

As for the Aztecs, I wonder if they should have mixed cocaine with mushrooms. Great astromomy but a pretty sick sacrificial society.

Opps my irrelevancy alarm just went off..,


I decided to have a diverse religious family. I am a cultural Jew (Secular humanist), My wife is Catholic ( the Cafeteria sect), my oldest is Amish (he doesn't get any elecricity or devices) and the youngest is Zoroastrian. (We don't know anything about Zoroastrianism so he probably is getting away with all sorts of things)

As for institutional, persecution and execution, can't we all just have restitution of education and meditation and be done with it?


Share don't compare.
quote Hugh Romeney.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Dec 11 - 04:48 PM

I can not think of any examples of Christian persecutors, but perhaps there are some somewhere.

Check out the wars that followed the break-up of Yugoslavia, Keith. Plenty of examples. And plenty of examples of Muslims in the driving seat too, of course.

And of course there's also Christian on Christian persecution - and Muslim on Muslim as well.

I can't understand how there seems this appetite on the part of some people to talk as if the fact that someone expresses distress at one lot of persecution implies they are happy about other persecution.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Dec 11 - 05:09 PM

I know there is lots of persecution going on.
It hardly needs saying.
NATO actually went to war to stop the Christians persecuting Muslims in the Balkans.
Now, I can not think of any examples of Christian persecutors, but perhaps there are some somewhere.
The Pope and Canterbury did not ask anyone to go to war with persecutors, just to stop being so nice to them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Dec 11 - 06:04 AM

"Christian persecutors,"
A footnote to a discussion on Christian persecution:
An official report just made public shows that 800 Dutch clergymen have been found to have abused a total of 20,000 children between the years 1945 and 1985.
There is no reason to believe that the abuse suddenly ceased after that date.
I wonder if this qualifies as 'Christian persecution' and if it does, is it counted as serious or minor?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Dec 11 - 06:16 AM

So all Christians deserve to be persecuted.
Right Jim?
Stringsinger, many Christian communities ARE dwindling to extinction in the face of an onslaught of unrelenting persecution.
I know they are OK in US thanks.

Greg, are you going to give us the grounds for your certainty?
Whether true or not, the claims are believable, and worthy of consideration.
How and why can you just dismiss them as "preposterous" and "bullshit"?
You have the blind, irrational certainty of a fundamentalist.
Is that a fair description of you?


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Dec 11 - 07:04 AM

"So all Christians deserve to be persecuted."
Who has said this apart from yourself?
You said you couldn't think of Christians persecuting anybody - I gave you 20,000 examples
Only you have defended persecution here and elsewhere.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Dec 11 - 07:37 AM

Jim ~With respect [& I do really mean that], I think you are over-defining 'persecution' here. Those priests were not persecuting the children, they were abusing them. I am not trying to adjudge as to the greater or lesser iniquity between the two activities; but simply adducing this as an important distinction between two quite separate, tho both much-to-be-deplored, forms of misbehaviour. Priests who interfere sexually with children within their charge are guilty of 'abuse'; 'persecution' means oppressing or maltreating people, from a superior power-base, because of their ethnicity &/or their beliefs. Conflating these as you appear to me to be doing simply obfuscates, rather than clarifies, this important question.

~Michael~


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Dec 11 - 08:03 AM

"So all Christians deserve to be persecuted."

That was the only explanation I could think of for your posting about child abuse on this thread!


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Dec 11 - 09:10 AM

That is juggling with semantics Mike
The clergy has been abusing children, probably for centuries here in Ireland.
The church has utilised their authority "from a superior power base" to not only cover up the abuse, but to allow it to continue by passing on the abusers to other parishes, and when it has got out of hand they have moved on the offenders to African countries, where, apparently, abuse does not matter. The Catholic heirarchy are still using their "superior - (though now waning) power base" - in an attempt to hamper enquiries into the abuse.
If I had children starting school here I would have almost no alternative but to have them educated as Catholics unless I was lucky enough to enrol them in one of the tiny handful of 'Educate Together' schools, in which case they would have to travel 20 odd miles to the nearest - a small pre-fabricated building on the outskirts of our market town.
Not sure of the present situation but up to comparatively recently, if a Catholic wished to marry a non Catholic and retain his/her religion they would have to give an undertaking to have any children educated as Catholics (a wonderful film 'A Love divided' showing the effects this had on a family bassed on an actual event in the 1950s) - a form of brainwashing as far as I'm concerned - as the Jesuits said "Give me a child until he is seven and I will give you the man".
Religious persecution has been a fact of life here in Ireland for centuries - (look up the 'soup schools' as far back as The Famine)
All of this, as far as I can see, fits comfortably within your definition of persecution - not killing, rape or imprisonment, but every bit as devatating to those affected.
It also illustrates the point I have been making throughout this thread (and which none of the critics of 'Christian Persecution' have even acknowledged, let alone answered) that most religions will persecute and abuse in the furtherence of their religion if they are in the position to do so
With equal respect - and I also sincerely mean that.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Dec 11 - 09:12 AM

"That was the only explanation I could think of for your posting about child abuse on this thread! "
You are not noted for your breadth of imagination Keith - it ususlly doesn't extend beyond cut-'n-pastes
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Dec 11 - 09:39 AM

The clerical abuse of children is a most serious and damning issue.
In consequence it has been extensively debated here, with threads dedicated to it.
But, it has no bearing on this totally unrelated issue.
It is irrelevant, unless you are claiming that their lust for children was impregnated by their Christian culture.
Are you claiming that Jim?


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Dec 11 - 09:43 AM

I suppose there might be something to be said for havin all purpose argy-bargy threads in which we bash around bringing in different issues about which we have had disagreements with other people on other threads.

Rather more to be said, I feel, though for keeping our different quarrels, or preferably disagreements, in separate threads.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Dec 11 - 11:37 AM

--"That is juggling with semantics Mike
The clergy has been abusing children, probably for centuries here in Ireland.
The church has utilised their authority "from a superior power base" to not only cover up the abuse, but to allow it to continue by passing on the abusers to other parishes, and when it has got out of hand they have moved on the offenders to African countries, where, apparently, abuse does not matter."--

.,,.

Sorry, Jim, but I think you are semantically confused, & playing the HumptyDumpty definitions game. The posters between your response to my last and this one of mine appear to agree that you are confusingly conflating two different categories, for the purpose, mainly, of working off scores & resentments against a particular branch of Xtianity, rather than addressing the topic of this thread, which is persecution of or by Christians of or by members of other faiths.

None of us is disagreeing with you about the iniquity of the abuses [in more than one sense] which you relate. But it is not mere semantic juggling to point out that you are making a category error in conflating this with the actual topic which this thread sets out to discuss. We have had numerous threads on the other matter also, where you have cogently made the points which you are endeavouring, erroneously, to interpolate here.

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Dec 11 - 12:38 PM

Sorry again Mike - between your last post and here is McGrath's (who I usually more or less agree with), and Keith's who... well.... even his best friends couldn't accuse him of honesty and even-handed - open-mindedness.
Inter - Christian disagreements have led to 90 years of unrest within these Islands - at least 20 of those culminationg in extremely bloody warfare. Persecution of one group of Christians by another is now pretty well accepted as the main reason for the unrest and bloodshed, and to set it apart from Muslims persecuting Christinas, or Jews perscuting Muslims is, I feel, missing the point.
It is not a case of 'which religion' - but religion itself overstepping its role which is the root of all religious persecution.
If it was merely a a case of the church having clergymen who were abusing children, perhaps you might have a point (though the fact that these individuals used the religious authority that their position brought them expands it far beyond that).
The fact that the Church as an organisation actively protected the abusers, enabled the abuse to continue, silenced those who threatened to expose the criminals with both spiritual and social consequences and continues to attempt to hide the facts surrounding the abuses - all this makes it a classic case of wholesale religious persecution by a Christian church.
The Dutch example shows that we still have no idea of the extent of these abuses - within these islands we have yet to learn how far they occured in the UK (including Northern Ireland - not to mention The Magdaline Laundries in the South).
The fact that all these are cases of a religious body (as a whole) using its position in society to carry out wholesale abuses on the weakest and most vunerable among us, makes it a classic case of religious persecution by by an extremely powerful Christian church, plain and simple.
It might be convenient for some to claim 'thread drift' - but my point remains unchallenged (or even acknowledged) - virtually all religious bodies have used (and will again - given the opportunity) use their position to persecute - whether it's their own followers or other those of other beliefs.
McGrath - I have made an effort to cool it as far as Keith is concerned - difficult when my arguments continue to be distorted and mis-represented.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Dec 11 - 03:47 PM

Apart from all that Jim, what is your opinion on the subject of this thread?
i.e. in the world today, while persecution is all too prevalent, the persecution of Christian minorities is under recognised and under reported, and possibly more prevalent than other religious persecution.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Dec 11 - 05:18 PM

Distortion and misrepresentation is evident on the part of rather a wide spectrum of people posting here. That's what tends to happen when we are too confident that we are in the right in a discussion which has flowered into a quarrel.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Dec 11 - 05:47 AM

My opinion is as stated - religious persecution in any shape or form is evil, it is forcibly imposing religions on people who have no wish to be part of them.
To single out any particular brand of persecution as being "worse" or "better" or to suggest any form of persecution is acceptable because 'others do it' is to excuse it and allow it to flourish.
To demand that we should single out and deplore any one persecuted group and ignore others it to show bias - it is asking that we remove it from its context in order to score political/religious points - , thanks but no thanks - damn them/you all,
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: akenaton
Date: 18 Dec 11 - 06:13 AM

Would that be "damned to hell" then?


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Dec 11 - 07:16 AM

To single out any particular brand of persecution as being "worse" or "better"

Why state that Jim, when no-one has ever, even suggested such a ludicrous thing?

More widespread only.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Dec 11 - 08:04 AM

"Would that be "damned to hell" then? "
Oh - that reminds me - damn all homophobes as well.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Musket
Date: 18 Dec 11 - 08:27 AM

Anything that I agree with comes under better, anything I disagree with comes under worse.

I suspect that applies to us all......

Of course, like Jim, we could always damn them all. That way, we all get our turn in the barrel.

Gawb Bless us, one and aarrlll...

I preferred this thread when it was about being outraged by bigots twisting their faith to promote their odious views. I enjoy pointing and laughing at God botherers, but that is far cry from hating the buggers....


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: akenaton
Date: 18 Dec 11 - 08:51 AM

Agreed Ian, I dont hate the buggers either, regardless of what Jim thinks.....


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: akenaton
Date: 18 Dec 11 - 08:56 AM

Still, I dont understand how you can see the religious stance stance on "Gay marriage", as "bigots twisting their faith to promote their odious views."


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: akenaton
Date: 18 Dec 11 - 09:11 AM

"Stance! Stance! wherever you may be!"

Sorry:0(......I'll get me crucifix.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Dec 11 - 11:39 AM

There is nothing unreasonable in addressing the evident fact that currently the victims of religious persecution tend to be Christians. This probably hasn't been the case in other times - the world changes, and so do the religions.

I would imagine that one factor is that in some countries Christian are liable to be identified with former colonial regimes, very unfairly most of the time.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 18 Dec 11 - 11:53 AM

currently the victims of religious persecution tend to be Christians

Documentation, please.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Dec 11 - 03:56 PM

Just from the rapidly declining numbers of Christians in Muslim majority states it should be obvious that something is very wrong. According to a US Department of State report on religious freedom, there are now just 85 000 Christians in Turkey, down from 2 million. In Lebanon, where they once constituted a majority, they now make up no more than one-third of the population. Once as much as half the population in Syria, they now constitute perhaps 4%. In Jordan, they make up 2%, when they were once close to one in five.

Especially ironical is how the US-led invasion of Iraq, rather than benefiting the Christian population, has had exactly the opposite effect. Once kept in check by the Saddam regime, hard-core Islamists have now been left free to persecute their Christian neighbours and have done so relentlessly. The massacre of 37 worshipers at Baghdad's Sayyidat al-Najat Syrian Catholic Christian Church in October last year was just one of multiple incidents of anti-Christian violence in Iraq. That the law officially strongly opposes such acts makes little difference. In practice few are arrested, let alone punished, for attacks on religious minorities, even those involving murder. The impact of this undeclared reign of terror has been dramatic, with the Christian population — 1.4 million strong at the time of the 2003 Coalition invasion — dropping 50% in less than a decade.

For Egypt's embattled Coptic Christian minority, the Arab Spring in their country has been a disaster. One of the worst cases of violence against them took place only last month, where the military killed dozens of Christians (inter alia, video evidence shows armoured-vehicles running over civilians) protesting the destruction of their churches. The response of Western governments has been one of studied apathy. Indeed, it has been alleged that US President Barack Obama's top Muslim adviser blocks Middle Eastern Christians' access to the White House.

Earlier this year, the mainly Christian Southern Sudan was allowed to break away to form its own independent state. Prior to this, however, and for many years, hundreds of thousands of Sudanese Christians had been massacred, ethnically cleansed in massive numbers or (literally) enslaved.

Anti-Christian persecution is happening in the Palestinian territories as well. In Gaza, assaults, firebombings, seizures of homes and businesses and death threats against Christians happen continually and usually with impunity. Today, barely 3 000 Christians remain there. The West Bank's Christian population likewise has dropped sharply, even in Bethlehem, Christianity's birthplace.

What is now happening to Arab Christians has already happened to Jews in those countries. In the 20 years following the establishment of Israel, the North African and Middle Eastern Jewish communities left en masse after being subjected to systematic, usually state-orchestrated persecution. Well over 95% of those communities and their descendants now live elsewhere. It was one of the 20th century's forgotten enforced exoduses, and now it is happening all the time to Christians, likewise without eliciting much comment from the world at large.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: akenaton
Date: 18 Dec 11 - 04:20 PM

Excellent Keith, factual and concise.

The Arab spring? more like a dangerous swamp.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST, Eb
Date: 18 Dec 11 - 06:39 PM

"...decided to have a diverse religious family. I am a cultural Jew (Secular humanist), My wife is Catholic ( the Cafeteria sect), my oldest is Amish (he doesn't get any elecricity or devices) and the youngest is Zoroastrian." Donuel

" my oldest is Amish (he doesn't get any elecricity or devices)"?

Highly unlikely. Doing without electricity or other devices in no way makes one Amish, Don.

That misstatement makes your whole contention suspect. I fail to see why you found it necessary to write such a ludicrous paragraph.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Dec 11 - 02:54 AM

"They hung me up across an iron gate, then they yanked open the gate and my whole body lifted until my chest nearly split in two. I hung like that for four hours."
That is how Peter Xu Yongze, the founder of one of the largest religious movements in China, described his treatment during one of five jail sentences on account of his belief in Christianity.



Peter Xu Yongze was in jail for a total of eight years
Mr Xu, 61, is not the only Chinese Christian to suffer for his faith. Both Catholics and Protestants have long complained of persecution by the Communist authorities, and human rights groups claim the problem is getting worse.
According to the Jubilee Campaign, an interdenominational lobby group, about 300 Christians are in detention in China at any one time, and that number is set to rise.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/3993857.stm


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST, Eb
Date: 19 Dec 11 - 12:16 PM

A bemused thought here: If this thread were of 80 years ago, would the subject be the persecution of Jews?

There would have been even more reason to bewail the persecution of Jews then than of Christians today.

After all, Jews were persecuted- not because of their beliefs but because of things beyond their control: their birth.

Seriously, were there writers who took up the cudgel against the violence against Jews?

(I fully recognize that the 30s-40s in Germany were not the first, only or last offenses against Jews.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 19 Dec 11 - 02:53 PM

we can only hope that the new demigod of N Korea will be less vicious to faith groups.at present i understand it is the worst state for persecution of believers.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Sep 13 - 08:16 AM

"Three days after an attack on an Anglican church in Peshawar, Pakistan, left at least 85 people dead, Pope Francis today urged Christians to an examination of conscience about their response to such acts of anti-Christian persecution.
"So many Christians in the world are suffering," the pope said during his general audience this morning in St. Peter's Square. "Am I indifferent to that, or does it affect me like it's a member of the family?"

The Sept. 22 atrocity in Pakistan is the latest instance of a mounting wave of anti-Christian violence in different parts of the world.

According to the International Society for Human Rights in Frankfurt, Germany, 80 percent of all acts of religious discrimination in the world today are directed against Christians.

The Center for the Study of Global Christianity in the United States estimates that over the last decade, an average of 100,000 Christians have died each year in what the center calls a "situation of witness," meaning for motives related to their faith.

Though some experts regard that estimate as inflated, it works out to an average of 11 Christians killed each hour throughout the past decade.

Parts of the Middle East, the Indian subcontinent, and regions of sub-Saharan Africa tend to be the greatest danger zones, though there are recent examples of Christians experiencing violent persecution in many other parts of the world as well.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Sep 13 - 09:32 AM

Personally, I think that most "Christians"[sic] richly deserve any persecution they may get.

Why should they be exempt from what everyone else has to suffer?


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket bemused
Date: 25 Sep 13 - 10:02 AM

Ok.

1. People from many religions are persecuted, mainly by people claiming to be religious.

2. Keith started this thread a long time ago with statistics provided by the Scottish head Catholic bloke who is now in disgrace, hidden away by the church to prevent the police from investigating him.

3. Awful and wrong, that's how I describe any persecution, whether it be religious, colour, sexual orientation or gender. From plotting inequality to murder, it's degrees of persecution.

But singling out one particular type, creed, and then one particular cult of creed, Christianity, ain't going to solve anything. Tackling intolerance for what it is, that's where you start. Protecting one cult and ignoring those who murder in it's name ain't going to cut much with those on their receiving end. That they are receiving more than others at the moment is a combination of awful circumstance and media interest, so we tend to know more. Ask a Sunni Muslim in Iran or a Shia Muslim in Iraq where persecution comes from in a the main, and it is each other.

One of the worst things that can happen is for William Hague to admonish China for persecution of Christians without equal emphasis on their persecution of Hindu, Muslim and Jews. After all, British citizens are British citizens and equal...


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Sep 13 - 01:07 PM

I agree with all that Musket, but if it is true that one "cult" is suffering significantly more than the others, is it not OK to draw attention to that?


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket musing
Date: 25 Sep 13 - 01:45 PM

I think it is Keith. However the danger in the real world is international political and media attention can wittingly or unwittingly put Christianity on a pedestal which, as history shows, started many of the problems in the first place.

I was always taken by something Archbishop Desmond Tutu said. He said that when white settlers came to southern Africa, they had the Bible and the blacks had the land. They invited the blacks to close their eyes and pray. When they opened them again, the blacks had the Bible and the settlers had the land.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Sep 13 - 02:48 PM

On a pedestal?
Being the most persecuted is like being on a pedestal.
None should be on a pedestal.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 25 Sep 13 - 06:36 PM

it ought to go without saying, that in highlighting violence and murder ,or the imprisonment of Christians as being greater than of other faiths or orientations, that any such persecution is unacceptable.
but specifics may be more useful in campaigning than generalizations.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Sep 13 - 09:15 PM

The assumption that Christian communities in third world countries are relics of colonialism is not one that should automatically be accepted. In Middle Eastern countries such as Syria, Iraq, Egypt or Turkey, Christianity was the predominant religion long before the arrival of Islam.

Particularly in the light of the horrifying massacre in Peshawar, Greg's comment that such things serve Christians right is pretty disgusting. I am suppose there are people who would say precisely the same thing if an equivalent atrocity were to take place in a mosque, or a synagogue. I wonder if he would be one of them?


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 26 Sep 13 - 08:53 AM

Disgusting, Kevin? You find the truth disgusting?

What's really disgusting is perpetuating the myth that " persecution or the imprisonment of Christians [ is ] greater than [ that ]of other faiths or orientations"


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Sep 13 - 10:48 AM

I know a lot of people who have been, or have relatives who have been sexually persecuted by Christian clergymen if that's any help?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 26 Sep 13 - 11:43 AM

'According to my Catholic school education, we all have it coming because of the sins of the long-dead, namely the sins of Adam 'n' Eve. They call it original sin, and every man-jack among us is smeared with it - until we get christened into Catholicism, of course!'

I don't believe in original sin. All mine have been done before.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Stringsinger
Date: 26 Sep 13 - 12:00 PM

"No sympathy expressed so far.
Just sneering and hate."

It's difficult to have sympathy when in the US there are fundamentalist Christian religious figures and organizations that are inflicting their evangelistic beliefs on others claiming some kind of godly authority, often with violence.

I suspect an agenda here. We know that there are Jews for Jesus, and the fundamentalist prophecy of "end times" involves the domination of Israel over
its "enemies". We know that there are active fundamentalist groups who are
defending Israel's right to subjugate Palestinians because they are "heathens".
In fact, if you explore the bible, you'll find that the Palestinian people were referred
to in the Old Testament as "Philistines".

It's remarkable that the government of Israel encourages such an agenda on the part of fundamentalist Christians.

Christian "victimhood" is being used as a political ploy by these Fundamentalist
Christians to vindicate their employment of coercion and evangelism. They feel
that somehow they are closer to Jesus through persecution when in fact, the majority of US citizens are Christian and many exploit those citizens who are not.
These exploitive people do not deserve sympathy but a sad rebuke instead.

If Jesus existed, what we he say about his exploitive followers? What would
he say about the treatment of Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza today?


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Sep 13 - 12:11 PM

It's a fairly well established fact that any church with a modicum of power and influence will persecute and dominate to protect what it has - hence their tendency to invariably support whoever is in charge no matter what their particular philosophy and attitude to human rights.
Politics and religion has always been a toxic mix and so it shall remain, forever and ever, amen!
This doesn't mean that there aren't clergymen and women who buck the system, but these usually come to a bad end, and no doubt, go to hell!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Sep 13 - 12:14 PM

"Personally, I think that most "Christians"[sic] richly deserve any persecution they may get."

"Personally, I think that most "Jews"[sic] richly deserve any persecution they may get."

"Personally, I think that most "Muslims"[sic] richly deserve any persecution they may get."


I suppose it depends on what you mean by"the truth"...


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Sep 13 - 03:33 PM

String, the Pope is no fundamentalist.

I restarted the thread with this report.
Do you think it all just made up proaganda?

Three days after an attack on an Anglican church in Peshawar, Pakistan, left at least 85 people dead, Pope Francis today urged Christians to an examination of conscience about their response to such acts of anti-Christian persecution.
"So many Christians in the world are suffering," the pope said during his general audience this morning in St. Peter's Square. "Am I indifferent to that, or does it affect me like it's a member of the family?"

The Sept. 22 atrocity in Pakistan is the latest instance of a mounting wave of anti-Christian violence in different parts of the world.

According to the International Society for Human Rights in Frankfurt, Germany, 80 percent of all acts of religious discrimination in the world today are directed against Christians.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 26 Sep 13 - 04:02 PM

I suppose it depends on what you mean by "the truth"

Or what you mean by persecution.

Now, just for clarity, lets try the whole posting, shall we Kevin?:

"Personally, I think that most "Christians"[sic] richly deserve any persecution they may get. Why should they be exempt from what everyone else has to suffer?"


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Sep 13 - 04:42 PM

And of course you'd be happy to replace "Christian" by "Jew" or Muslim"in that post. Or "gay" "black"...

Fortunately "what everyone else has to suffer' overstates the situation. Most of us, Christian, Jewish, Muslim or whatever don't have suffer persecution, though we certainly could in some places. But the people who do get persecuted, whatever minority they belong to in whatever part of the world, certainly don't "deserve whatever persecution they may get".


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 26 Sep 13 - 05:47 PM

Most of us, Christian, Jewish, Muslim or whatever don't have suffer persecution,

Well, Kevin, try telling that to the person that started this thread, OK?

Ta.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Stringsinger
Date: 26 Sep 13 - 05:56 PM

"String, the Pope is no fundamentalist."

So far, it seems as though he is more liberal than the past Popes. We'll see how he handles church doctrine in the future. He is trying to bring ex-Catholics back into the church.

"I restarted the thread with this report.
Do you think it all just made up proaganda?"

Not all of it. Coptic Christians are persecuted in Egypt and other Muslim countries.

Still, Christian Persecution is relatively small in the world compared to the persecution of other religions and also the non-belief community.

Christians often bring persecution on by insisting that their religion is the right one, though I don't support persecution of any religion or non-religion. The same biases might be said for any fundamentalist religion; when it becomes evangelical, it sets itself up
for push back. Unfortunately religion in general often turns violent because of its tendency toward tribalism; it becomes the persecuted and the persecutor.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Sep 13 - 10:08 PM

Still, Christian Persecution is relatively small in the world compared to the persecution of other religions and also the non-belief community.

Actually I believe that the evidence is that at this time the reverse is the case. Still league tables in this kind of matter are pretty pointless.

What matters is that persecution of minorities is all too prevalent in the world. All kinds of minorities can find themselves affected, including whatever minority we might be part of. Underlying this is the belief, articulated by one person in this thread, that some categories of persecuted people deserve to be persecuted.

Incidentally the suggestion by Stringsinger that proselytising by those who believe the religion they hold is the right one underlies most persecution isn't borne out in the case of the Christian communities most under lethal persecution, who tend to have virtually no history of proselytising or evangelisation for centuries.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Sep 13 - 10:14 PM

Still, Christian Persecution is relatively small in the world compared to the persecution of other religions and also the non-belief community.

Actually I believe that the evidence is that at this time the reverse is the case. Still league tables in this kind of matter are pretty pointless.

What matters is that persecution of minorities is all too prevalent in the world. All kinds of minorities can find themselves affected, including whatever minority we might be part of. Underlying this is the belief, articulated by one person in this thread, that some categories of persecuted people deserve to be persecuted.

Incidentally the suggestion by Stringsinger that proselytising by those who believe the religion they hold is the right one underlies most persecution isn't borne out in the case of the Christian communities most under lethal persecution, who tend to have virtually no history of proselytising or evangelisation for centuries.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket curious
Date: 27 Sep 13 - 01:18 AM

Well. If we include all forms of superstition and clubs affiliated to the cause. ...

Those persecuted include;

Women
Gays
Anybody not part of their particular cult

Look at it that way and you don't have to differentiate between different cults.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Sep 13 - 03:07 AM

These links indicate that there is an issue.
I also do not think such claims would be dismissed by contributors were it about any other ethnic/cultural group.

http://communities.washingtontimes.com/neighborhood/between-errands-april-thompson/2013/sep/26/persecution-against-christian-inc

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/10264499/The-almost-unremarked-tragedy-of-Christians-persecuted-in-the-Middle-East.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Sep 13 - 03:10 AM

Sorry, Washington Times link no good.

http://communities.washingtontimes.com/neighborhood/between-errands-april-thompson/2013/sep/26/persecution-against-christian-increases-many-parts/


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket being patriotic
Date: 27 Sep 13 - 03:34 AM

Links to The Daily Torygraph don't tend to be much good either. ...

Something about Church of England being the Tory party at prayer?


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Sep 13 - 04:03 AM

So you think it is all made up Musket?


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Sep 13 - 04:08 AM

Guardian Tuesday.



"It's not safe for Christians in this country," said Mano Rumalshah, the bishop emeritus of Peshawar, who was standing in the courtyard, comforting sobbing parishioners who clasped his white robes.

"Everyone is ignoring the growing danger to Christians in Muslim-majority countries. The European countries don't give a damn about us."


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Sep 13 - 05:21 AM

I would be very surprised if it were true, taking one place with another, and aggregating both small and large acts of discrimination, that there was more discrimination against Xtians (per capita) than any other religion. The daily life for example of any Muslim in the first world must surely be of being the discriminee.

True secularism is the only answer.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Sep 13 - 05:45 AM

Is your surprise level evidence of anything Richard?
On what is it based?
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/01/08/us-religion-christianity-persecution-idUSBRE9070TB20130108


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Sep 13 - 01:06 PM

Discrimination and persecution overlap, but they aren't the same thing. And they can both cover a wide range of things.

The evidence does seem to indicate that when it comes to people being in danger of death by reason of their religion, that's more likely to happen in the case of people belonging to minority Christian communities than to other religious minorities at this time in history. But I hold by my view that league tables about such things are irrelevant.

Typically this type of persecution tends not to be about people being targeted because of their religious beliefs, but because they belong to a rejected minority.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Donuel
Date: 27 Sep 13 - 01:34 PM

Wow look at all the posts. I think any thread about persecution would get lots of posts because people feel imagined persecution as well as real persecution in this two tiered class system.
While people may be correct about the persecuee they are seldom right about the persecuer.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 27 Sep 13 - 02:49 PM

There are unarguably states in the Muslim world where it is not only disadvantageous, but actually illegal, to practise Christianity; and, notoriously, some in which it is a judicial capital offence to convert from Islam to Christianity, and in which death sentences have actually been carried out in such cases.

OTOH, I am unaware of any Christian state in which the practice of any other religion is forbidden by law, and any doing so are visited by legal sanctions or punishments.

Can anyone correct me, and point to any instances of such, if this is not in fact the case?

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 27 Sep 13 - 05:16 PM

good question.
I think some more offbeat religions have been restricted by law, but even if that has occurred, there was no risk of capital punishment.
I am sure that if a Christian state is currently executing citizens because of another faith our resident atheists will be pleased to inform us!


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Sep 13 - 06:19 PM

It's a matter of chronology. Right now there aren't any Christian countries with those laws, but it isn't that long since there were quite a few. and there've been times in history when Muslim countries were significantly less intolerant of other religions than Christian.

Everyone seems to take it in turns to persecute minorities. You've even got Buddhists doing it to Muslims in Burma.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Bill D
Date: 27 Sep 13 - 07:00 PM

Because of the inherent human ability to 'interpret' the details and relevance of ANY religious belief, (almost) any group has at some time been persecuted... or done persecution.

"They are different from **us** and believe in something besides the 'true' faith, so we are perfectly justified in restricting what they do wherever we can!"

The "Merry Minuet" sums it all up for almost any group...religious or not..

♫"They're rioting in Africa. They're starving in Spain. There's hurricanes in Florida and Texas needs rain.
The whole world is festering with unhappy souls. The French hate the Germans. The Germans hate the Poles.
Italians hate Yugoslavs. South Africans hate the Dutch and I don't like anybody very much!
But we can be tranquil and thankful and proud for man's been endowed with a mushroom shaped cloud.
And we know for certain that some lovely day someone will set the spark off and we will all be blown away.
They're rioting in Africa. There's strife in Iran. What nature doesn't do to us will be done by our fellow man."♫


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket curious
Date: 28 Sep 13 - 02:44 AM

I suppose atrocities committed yesterday have less excuse than those committed in the past.

Otherwise pete's question could be answered in terms of the crusades, inquisition and the British Raj method of dealing with those refusing to see the supremecy of Christianity, tying them to the mouths of cannons.

Yes. There is always going to be one cult that is oppressed more than any other. Bringing attention to suppression and persecution of just the one though runs the risk of it being seen as more worthy than the rest, pissing off their oppressors all the more and leading to further, I believe the popular term is martyrdom.

My main concern is that raising this fits in with the efforts of Christians and their leaders to regain the influence they once had in Western societies. I would be more sympathetic to armchair Christians raising it if they didn't keep trying to confuse religious freedom with religious privilege.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Sep 13 - 03:00 AM

The Raj did not punish people for not being Christian, and the army formed units of various faiths, Hindu, Sikh and Muslim.

The gun muzzle executions were for those sentenced to death who feared no other kind of execution.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 28 Sep 13 - 03:02 AM

Those shot from cannons during & after the Indian Mutiny had done rather more than just deny the truth of Christianity, Ian. Have you ever read the actual details of Nana Sahib's treacherous deceits, and what the relieving troops actually found in the well at Cawnpore, for instance?

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket again
Date: 28 Sep 13 - 06:25 AM

Funnily enough, I have read quite a lot on the subject. It fascinated me ever since my first visit to India and how British with a capital E for Empire certain aspects remain, culturally speaking.

I have seen, touched even, a cannon that was used for a group of village elders who questioned the building of a church, which needed the demolition of a temple.

That is why I used the example, and the ins and outs of that example in the two posts above detract from my general point.

Which of course, is the intention, isn't it?


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Sep 13 - 06:50 AM

There is a breathtaking amount of hypocrisy in this and other threads on religion
Ant religious body will resort to extreme and vicious behaviour if it feels the necessity and is in the position to do so - ask anybody who lives in a Catholic country.
Yet another row has recently broken out over a child (this time an 11 year old) being refused a termination of pregnancy on religious grounds.
Ireland is still in the throes of a sometimes vicious debate as to whether an abortion is permissible if the life of the mother is threatened and/or the birth is even viable.
The church's record on child abuse speaks for itself, and not just the Catholic Church.
Recently a leading politician in the north has become embroiled in a row over a colleague who attended the funeral of somebody who 'kicked with the wrong foot'.
Seven states in the U.S. prohibit anybody denying the existence of God from holding public office.....
The list is endless.
I have little doubt that these undisputed facts will be defended by cries of "they did it first" or "they all do it" or "they do it more than we do".... and other such facile irrelevancies, but the fact remains, until religion becomes a private choice by consenting individuals, persecution, abuse of power and privilege.... and everything that goes with 'established and State religion' will remain a grim fact of life, whatever the particular brand-name of the product.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 28 Sep 13 - 07:30 AM

Denial of abortion & disqualification from public office on faith grounds. Lamentable indeed —

But scarcely in the same category as making apostasy a capital offence, and acting on it as such; which was the instant topic I raised a few posts back. Are there any Christian states in which such a law applies? NOW?; today? - not even in 1858 ~~ assuming the truth of Musket's tale of the village elders blown to pieces at the cannon's mouth for objecting to destruction of their temple to build a church. What its source, please, Ian?

"Remember Cawnpore Well!", cried the troops marching to the relief of Lucknow.

Good advice still.

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Sep 13 - 08:22 AM

"But scarcely in the same category as making apostasy a capital offence, a"
It's to be "He hit me harder than I hit him" then, is it?
The history of religion is one of bloodshed and persecution and those on top continue to be in the driving seat.
Tell those who died in Northern Ireland through religious inspired conflict, or former Yugoslavia, or anywhere that religious bigotry is given free reign, their deaths don't don't count Mike - surprised at you.
As somebody pointed out earlier on this thread, much of the wailing and gnashing of teeth from certain individuals, particularly the OP, rigs more than a little hollow when placed next to their own Islamopobic brand of persecution.
Churches persecute when they are in a position to do so - whining when your particular brand is on the receiving end..... well, that's life, isn't it.
'All cats look black in the dark' as the man said.
Can't help but notice that yet another "my God's better than yours" thread has just sprung up to inspire ius all; this time of year always was good for fungi.`
Jim Carroll
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Sep 13 - 08:49 AM

Kanpur, which is possibly I suppose Cawnpore? The museum I was dragged around, the name of which escapes me, and the actual village which was nearby. I spent a bit of time working around Uttar Pradesh. That particular claim moved me enough to remember what I just put. Which is interesting in itself as I normally am useless at remembering where things were, and in recent years since meeting Mrs Musket who is a walking Encyclopaedia, knowledge of where we go and what we do is better. I fly out to Thailand on Monday for a holiday, but be buggered if I recall the name of the island we are spending the second week on. All I know is we fly from Bangkok to it next Saturday.

I am not aware of any Christian States where apostasy is a capital offence. But there again there are not many Christian States, and very few Islamic ones for that matter.

I am sure there are many places, especially in Dumbfuckistan, where not following Christian lifestyle would be an offence if they got their own way. Already, not just Dumbfuckistan, but the rest of The USA, it is difficult to get far in public office without claiming Jesus put you there.....   Some would like that here in The UK and point to bishops being in The lords as meaning we are a Christian state, which we are not. Our monarch is the leader of one particular cult but there again, she is the patron of those who make Pedigree Chum dog food.

I repeat. Yes, Christians are being persecuted, so are other religions. Pointing out the persecution of one cult rather than say persecution of religions, with Christianity bearing the brunt, is dangerous, divisive and smells of an agenda.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 28 Sep 13 - 09:01 AM

So, Jim & Ian, the answer to my question is a "no".

Thank you.

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Sep 13 - 09:26 AM

"Cult" is best reserved for it's traditional meaning, which is a way of referring to a particular devotion or practice within a religion, for example the cult of a specific saint within Catholicism or Sufi Islam.

When used as a way of referring to a religion it is generally understood as intended to insult. Generally that seems to be the intention. Not to exaggerate, but it's an expression of the same mindset that gives rise to persecution.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Sep 13 - 10:03 AM

"Everyone is ignoring the growing danger to Christians in Muslim-majority countries. The European countries don't give a damn about us."

Hmm. What was I hearing about a YouGov poll last week in which only one in five Brits would "feel comfortable having a Muslim neighbour"? Bet that makes the millions of British Muslims feel safe...


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket curious
Date: 28 Sep 13 - 10:40 AM

Cult is not an insult. Religion is a group term and although they are all the same to me personally, I give them the respect of observing there are different sects within the term religion that see themselves as unique, hence cult is an accurate term of reference.

I repeat yet again. Whilst the Christianity "section? will that do? "of religion does seem to be getting violent oppression and stigmatising acts committed against them in some areas, so are other "sections" of religion. Who would be Shia in Iraq or Sunni in Iran? The Bosnian Muslims who suffered ethnic cleansing by the Christian Serbs, etc etc. Who prayed for them?

Pointing out the issues of one particular section of religion based communities leads to awful division. You know, the worst thing about those who discriminate is those who make excuses for them.

If it weren't for the much publicised effort by UK Christian organisations to push the persecution button because the law doesn't let them discriminate against Gays now, and if they don't get their act together and allow top jobs to be sought on merit, women soon, I could take this thread at face value but whilst religious equality isn't good enough for some, these threads just feed the need for privilege and that will never return.

Thank Clapton.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Sep 13 - 10:49 AM

Oh dear.
There are issues in Ireland about abortion.
Thank you for letting us know Jim, but do you ever read thread titles.

I do not understand the hostility and absence of sympathy for a persecuted group just because that group are Christians.

My referring to the fact that Christians seem to be suffering more than their share does not mean I approve of any other, past or present.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Sep 13 - 10:58 AM

The Bosnian Muslims who suffered ethnic cleansing by the Christian Serbs, etc etc. Who prayed for them?

UK and other NATO members went in to save them, remember.
It was awhile ago now to remember exactly, but I am sure we would have prayed for them at my church, and all the other churches in the land where the sufferings of fellow humans are always remembered.
Just as the Syrian people have been in our prayers in recent years.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Sep 13 - 11:09 AM

"So, Jim & Ian, the answer to my question is a "no"."
No Mike - may answer id "a plague on all their houses"
"Thank you for letting us know Jim, but do you ever read thread titles."
The thread title is "Christian persecution" which apparently doesn't cover "persecution by Christians" - didn't think for a moment it would.
Good to see the old "thread drift" standby is on hand should I ever need it though!
A bit disgusting to reduce the centuries of religious persecution in Ireland that has filled more graves than any of us care to think about during my lifetime alone as "abortion issues" and passed off as "oh dear", but it's what we've come to expect from god-fearing people like yourself.
Say one for me, will you?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Sep 13 - 11:36 AM

I think persecution by Christians would be a valid issue Jim.
Let's here of some.
Ireland is run by secular politicians.
Who is being persecuted for their faith in and by whom Jim?


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket curious
Date: 28 Sep 13 - 12:51 PM

Let there be light!

And lo. The agenda was displayed for all to see.

My work is done.

Tatty bye.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Sep 13 - 12:53 PM

Ireland has been dominated by religious-inspired Christian in-fighting for many centuries.
Up comparatively recently the politicians from the Republic took their orders from the church - it took the clerical rape of thousands of children to bring that to an end .
The Six Counties were declared a "Protestant State" at Independence yet the blood still flows on a regular basis there.
There is a hangover from these facts which periodically erupt into open violence and claim yet more lives - and that will continue to be the case for the foreseeable future.
I was relieved to receive your PM telling me you were praying for me; I've been told the same by the Jehovah's Witnesses who used to plague my Sunday afternoons.
I'm sure those who were burned at the stake for their non or unwise beliefs were given the same assurances.
With "God (and Keith) on my side" what more could one wish for?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Sep 13 - 01:05 PM

Historically "Christians"[sic] seem to have the most fun persecuting other "Christians"[sic], which is still pretty much the case today.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Sep 13 - 01:55 PM

Is anyone being persecuted for their faith in Ireland Jim.
If not, you are on the wrong thread again.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 28 Sep 13 - 02:58 PM

Jim ~~ "A plague on both their houses" could constitute a very good answer to a vast # of ?s I could think of. But it does not answer the SPECIFIC QUESTION I asked, to which, by omission and evasion if not otherwise, you have answered "NO": viz, to reiterate ~~

While it is common ground [or anyhow no-one has denied it since I stated it all those posts back] that there are Muslim societies and states in which apostasy is a capital offence, can anyone name a state whose majority or official state religion is any form of Christianity. where this applies NOW; TODAY; not in the 16thC or in India in 1858 [if it did, which I beg leave to doubt]???

The failure of Jim, Ian, or anyone else to furnish any contemporary example of such constitutes, in any rational terms a

N O

and any attempt by Jim or anyone else to gloss any such failure to respond as being synonymous with Mercutio's famous dying curse from Romeo&Juliet is, I would submit, mere pissing down the wind...

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Sep 13 - 03:55 PM

"Is anyone being persecuted for their faith in Ireland Jim."
People are being killed and maimed on a regular basis for belonging to the wrong faith in Ireland - does that constitute being "persecuted?"
Only last week - that nice Mrs Robinson's (coo-coo-coo-choo) husband Peter, the leader of the present government in Northern Ireland, got himself into hot water for slagging off a college for "selling land to a "republican" = Catholic - so deep does the for religious unification appears to go in that part of the Island.   
"and any attempt by Jim or anyone else to gloss any such failure "
Nobody is glossing over anything Mike - just pointing out that this sort of thing goes with religion - any religion, and given the opportunity, they would persecute again as they have in the past.
I abhor any extremist regime, Christian, Muslim, Jewish... who persecute any group for holding different beliefs - but I find it as disgusting as anything I have heard of late (plenty to choose from) that one is any better than the other because they do it because they can get away with it while others, who have done it in spades in the the not-too-distant past no longer do so because they can't.
Fundamentalist religion is the problem, not any particular brand.
Let's hear if for the Israelis who persecute Muslims..... (sorry, I forgot, you find that too upsetting, so let's not go there), or those who despise Muslims because they don't share our dress sense.
No, no, no - I do not accept as human any regime that will support a death penalty for non-believers, nor do I support a religion who stands aside and allows its clergy to rape and torture children and then facilitate farther rapes by moving them on to the next parish
In addition, I utterly despise anybody who will pass one form of persecution as "lamentable indeed" or pass off rape and physical abuse as "issues in Ireland about abortion".
Damn them/you all for their murderously inhuman behavior, and damn them/you for your inhuman and one-sided hypocrisy - every single one of them/you have played your part in bringing further misery to this 'Vale of Tears'.
I have little doubt that if this continues I/we will be accused of "hating Christians" just as I have regularly been accused of "hating Britain" because I express my disgust at Britain's arms sales to terrorist states.
I was rather intrigued to come across a slogan recently from an American Christian group asking "WHY DO ATHEISTS HATE AMERICA" - brothers under the skin no doubt.
Jim Carroll


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